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Ayn Rand was not a libertarian. She claimed strongly that the libertarian movement was a badly done rip-off of Objectivism.
http://www.aynrand.org/site/PageServer?pagename=education_campus_libertarians
This is an article by the Ayn Rand Institute showing all the comments she has made on libertarianism and the libertarian party.
I removed her name from the list of libertarians.
(Not sure if I'm doing this correctly, but this is someone else adding a note:) Libertarians and Objectivists find a lot of common ground (centered largely around personal responsibility), and indeed they're often grouped together, but Objectivism is a broad moral code and libertarianism is just a political philosophy. Ayn Rand stressed repeatedly that Objectivism was not a political philosophy, even if it has political implications, like any moral code (I can find exact quotes if necessary). Some diehard Objectivists vehemently oppose libertarianism simply because Ayn Rand told them to; there is much less animosity the other way around. The two really don't contradict each other, and in fact they tend to suggest each other.
An objectivist believes in a libertarian society. I think Rand was against people who were calling themselves libertarians at the time (and were libertarians) but that had no rational philosophical foundation for the advocacy of libertarianism. Apparently, she felt that her philosophy was the only or the only proper way of arriving at the belief in what libertarianism describes. So, I think it's clear she is a libertarian, but she would never join the Libertarian Party (large "L") because she would say that that that political party does not have a cogent philosophical foundation in its platform. RJII 05:09, 3 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I've never used a Talk page before, so if I'm doing this wrongly, please move my comments to where they should be. This statement caught my eye a little bit down the page:
"To me, this statement is meaningless. You can arbitrarily categorise rights as positive or negative. For example, the positive right to food could be categorised as the negative right not to starve. The negative right not to be robbed could be phrased as the positive right to property ownership."
The negative right not to starve will impede on someone's negative rights not to be taxed or to have property/food seized from them.
-nach0king
Will do in future, thank you. Nach0king 17:51, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)
As I understand it, the Capitalist Libertarian positive rights and negative rights idea hinges on a particular framework of action versus inaction. A positive right implies that another party is obliged to perform an act to meet/respect that right, while a negative right implies that another person is obliged not to act in order not to violate that right. In the example provided, a provided right to food can only be easily phrased as a positive right -- the right requires that a third party commit an action (feed me!) to meet/respect the right. Of course, there are some examples where it's not so possible to cleanly argue, within that framework, that a right can suffice as positive or negative, except from within an existing framework of proper social relations, such as contracts, property, and the like (which C.L. philosophy does some work towards providing). Hopefully this'll prove enlightening -- I was once really into the philosophy involved. -- Improv 22:53, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)
"Negative" and "Positive" rights are merely well-understood labels, arbitrary as it may seem. Negative rights are the rights to be left alone. Positive rights require the coercion of other people to ensure your "rights". Which, do you think, is libertarian?
After having been away for a month, I am glad to see that some people have enough sense to point out what was going on. Thank you millerc. The right-wing libertarians can't stand being pointed out for what they are- right-wingers- and so when someone does, they censor that person. It is sad.
Anyways, after watching one of the debates that Michael Badnarik was in with the Green Party's presidential nominee David Cobb, it occured to me that this page is also missing some critical information about right-wing libertarianism. Belief in a non-interventionist foriegn policy, opposition to "state corporatism" (WTO, NAFTA, etc...) and free trade across borders, opposition to the drug war, and the like. It would be interesting to hear a right-wing libertarian explain their views on corporate personhood, though they would probably try to avoid the question by talking about private property instead.
Anyways, this page desperatly needs to be factualized and neutralized and I am going to do it if no one else will.
-Political Nerd
And the fact that that site has Al Franken under the list of Libertarianism reading materials just boggles my mind. 210.142.29.125
I am a life-long libertarian. Until a couple of years ago, when I started getting interested in U.S. politics, I had never thought that the extreme liberalism detailed in this article might seriously be called "libertarianism".
The U.S. has a Democratic Party, and "I'm a Democrat" declared by an American voter means allegiance to this party, and yet "Democrat" and "Democracy" have meanings that go beyond the petty politics of one country. The U.S. has a Republican Party, and "I'm a Republican" declared by an American voter means allegiance to this party, and yet "Republican" and "Republic" have meanings that go beyond the petty politics of one country. The U.S. has a Libertarian Party, and "I'm a Libertarian" declared by an American voter means allegiance to this party, and yet "Libertarian" and "Libertarianism" have meanings that go beyond the petty politics of one country.
Why are the conclusions of the first two statements reflected in the contents of articles such as Democracy, Republic, etc. but not in Libertarianism? Why does this article not actually talk about libertarianism?
Could it be that too high a proportion of contributors are ignorant chauvinists from a certain part of the world? That's a rhetorical question. Chameleon 23:19, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)
The page currently says: For libertarians, there are no "positive rights" (such as to food, shelter, or health care), only "negative rights" (such as to not be assaulted, abused or robbed).
I might remind people that the term "positive rights" as contrasted with "negative" or "social" rights was coined by Communist China during the Cultural Revolution. 24.13.116.219 02:42, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC)
To me, this statement is meaningless. You can arbitrarily categorise rights as positive or negative. For example, the positive right to food could be categorised as the negative right not to starve. The negative right not to be robbed could be phrased as the positive right to property ownership.
As such I think that this is a pretty flimsy statement to be using in the first paragraph of the article, as it really tells us absolutely nothing about what Libertarians actually stand for. Shane King 07:38, Oct 19, 2004 (UTC)
The first point: libertarianism is about liberty. Pure and simple. Some political POV will tolerate libertarians, and others will not. The central idea is that, taken collectively, ordinary people will choose the best path for themselves over time. Other POV hold that, for one reason or another, someone *ELSE* will be better at making that choice. But for a libertarian, liberty is a personal thing with an ultimately good social byproduct of a free country. Other POV put someone else in charge. If you miss this point, you miss the whole banana.
There is no such thing as a "positive" right. It is called an "entitlement". Socialists of various stripes can go over the particulars of these in extreme detail. There is no difference between a "positive right" and a debt. The society *OWES* you <something> and to not pay it is unjust. Has nothing whatsoever to do with libertarianism. It is the cornerstone of collectivism of various stripes. Your rights are to be defended against bullies of all sorts, even political ones.
The key point again: over time, the common people will make decisions in their own best interest -- if you give them freedom. The closer you can come to pushing vital decisions down to the individual level, the closer you will come to the best possible human political organization. Everything else is deduced from this point. Large social organizations foster tyranny.
milesgl
I'm starting to agree with the man. Does it really matter if the ultra-liberals ruin the encyclopaedia? Just as we have to accept that a certain number of articles will be vandalised, a certain number will be hijacked. Chameleon 17:08, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)
milesgl Nov 9, '04
milesgl Nov 9, '04
milesgl Nov 9, '04
The positive/negative formulation of rights is often unclear, but the distinction between certain kinds of rights remains useful and is not merely semantic. Philosophers and libertarians who emphasize negative rights are really positing an individual's "right" to be left alone and to exercise his liberty without interference from others (e.g., free speech), as opposed to a "duty" to promote someone else's welfare (e.g., healthcare), or the latter's corresponding "right" to receive it. Within this formulation there are those who argue these first-order rights are natural, and others who argue that they are prescriptive. Libertarians are not the only ones who emphasize negative rights or the right to liberty, though; for example, John Rawls, who is no libertarian (a la Robert Nozick), also gives liberty...the right to be left alone... precedence in his Theory of Justice. However one characterizes them, and whether or not one believes they have merit (which, after all, is not at issue in an encyclopedia), these alleged rights are central to libertarian and many modern liberal theories (see, for example, Isaiah Berlin). icut4u
milesgl Nov 9, '04
Although I personally can see advantages in moving the article (for example, it seems fairer that Libertarianism doesn't get owned by the right wing side if Anarchism doesn't get owned by the left and is instead shared), I think it was a bit much to just up and move a contentious article like this without discussion. I know you're supposed to assume good intent, but it almost seems an invitation to a flame war, which is hardly a good thing ... Shane King 00:36, Oct 20, 2004 (UTC)
milesgl nov. 10 2004
The move was nonsense, the user who moved it is vandalizing Wikipedia, and I've moved it back. Rhobite 05:10, Oct 20, 2004 (UTC)
Since it looks like we can't reach consensus, perhaps we should make the "libertarianism" page a disambig page, pointing to the various articles that can reasonably lay claim to that name, such as the U.S. political movement, the European political movement, and the philosophical concept.-- The Anome 13:38, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I'm not sure about this. There are plenty of words in English for which there are similar words, but with different meanings, in French or other languages. This page is about the idea which in English is called by the name "libertarianism".
If that is the real source of tension here ? that the French word that looks like the English "libertarianism" is best translated to English as "anarcho-socialism" ? then I do not think a disambiguation page is suitable on the English Wikipedia. Nor would one be appropriate on the French Wikipedia; the French page for libertarianisme or whatever should describe what we in English call anarcho-socialism, if that is what French speakers mean by it.
What does the word "libertarianism" mean to a (neutral) British speaker ? or an Australian, Canadian, or NZ? If it means what it means to an American speaker, then it is the appropriate title of an English Wikipedia page. If, on the other hand, the American use of the term is in fact regional, then this page should be retitled. However, that title should be "Libertarianism (U.S.)" or some such. It should not be "Libertarian capitalism", "Capitalist libertarianism" or any other such Marxoid neologism. ?FOo 22:49, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Retrieved from " http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Libertarianism"
I respect what you are trying to do, Shane, and I do think you're being earnest. However, I am not sure what the relevance of fairness qua equal time is from an editorial perspective. I do not think, for example, the subject of communism needs requires articles on, say, Israeli communism, Marxist communism, and everyone's version of it. I suspect if one were to go to any widely-recognized encyclopedia in the English speaking world, you will find one entry for libertarianism and no entries for capitalist libertarianism, market libertarianism, or, dare I say, socialist libertarianism (as opposed to socialism). To the extent there are several species of it, the artilce should make reference to them. Anyway, that's my view, and I think that FOo and others might be making a similar point. icut4u
I agree with Nat Krause. A Wikipedia article should be about one thing. The prevailing meaning of "anarchism" as far as I have seen it used is anarcho-socialism or anti-capitalist anarchism. If that is the case throughout English, then the article should be about anarcho-socialism, with a disambiguation note at the top to anarcho-capitalism. However, unlike the term "anarcho-capitalism", the term "libertarian capitalism" is not widely used (while Google searches are not a perfect measure, they are a pretty darned good one) and so does not form a useful title for an article.
I must respond to one more of Shane King's points. He asks whether "aesthetic concerns" trump Wikipedia's NPOV policy. I do not think they would. However, accuracy concerns are not merely aesthetic concerns. Neutrality means that we should strive to represent the world as it is, rather than as we may wish it to be.
It is not Wikipedia's job to tell English-speakers that they should use the word "libertarian" to mean something else than what they presently (by and large) use it to mean. The word does have a specific predominant usage (both by libertarians and non-libertarians); and it is a misuse of Wikipedia to choose article titles in an effort to promote the point of view that this predominant usage should be changed. ? FOo 22:49, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I have noticed that most of the recent edits seem to be made by anonymous people without accounts on Wikipedia. I would like to urge people to create accounts and therefore properly identify themselves if participating in any controversy or frequent editing. Chameleon 13:25, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)
There is such ambiguity here that it seems totally inappropriate for one version of libertarianism to occupy one page and another to be classified differently. For neutrality's sake, I think a disambiguation page is necessary here. ReithySockPuppet 21:06, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Contrary to what the most recent revision states, none of the major libertarian theorist of the English-speaking variety (Hospers, Nozick, Hayek, Mises, etc.) uses the descriptor "libertarian capitalism." It is false to say that this is the common understanding or usage among libertarians. For what seems like the 100th time, not all libertarian theorists base their views on economic grounds. Indeed, the principal libertarian theorists of the last fifty years, other than Friedman (Mises and Hayek wrote their seminal works prior to fifty years ago), base their views on moral grounds....stating that it is morally wrong to take someone's fairly acquired property, notwithstanding someone else's end-state theory. One can argue all day long as to whether or not this is the correct view, but this is what they, the libertarians, believe.
Libertarians believe people ought to be left alone as much as possible. That is the essence of negative rights, which was mischaracterized in several previous posts. This position is not a mere linguistic trick. The fact that this allows for free exchange (or relatively free, for few libertarians believe in absolute property rights), disposing of one's property as one sees fit, is what makes the theory compatible with capitalist acts. The latter does not justify the former. It is simply wrong to make out libertarianism to be primarily or solely an economic position. Many libertarain theorists in the English-speaking world believe that it is primarily a matter of moral rights, notwithstanding the economic consequences.
I do not understand why those who find the libertarian position to be disagreeable cannot nevertheless allow it to be defined as its principal proponents would describe it, as opposed to introducing new usage in order to make sometimes subtle and sometimes not so subtle editorial points about their position. That belongs in a critical analysis, not in an objective exposition of the position. I fear that this subject arouses too many passions to ever be accurately described, for long, in this kind of a forum icut4u
I think the current libertarianism article is frought with difficulty. For one thing, it is about anti-libertariansim as much as it is about libertariainsm. For another, there is considerable redundancy, some of which is avoidable. And, it does not explicate several important issues critical to libertarian thought. It is obviously controversial, so I thought a new attempt with several qualifications in defining libertarian philosophy might be in order. I tried to capture all of the important links and major ideas, but did not include the Nolan Chart, though I addressed it, and I certainly would not object to its inclusion. In any event, I offer it for your consideration, improvement (which it certainly needs), and rejection/deletion. The new article is entitled Libertarian theory. I have no objection if most of those who frequent this page simply want to can it, and I won't try to preserve it. icut4u 00:34, 31 Oct 2004 (UTC)
User:172.190.144.30 is now reverting the page under the edit summary "the libertarianism described in this article is found in America only and that should be noted" (sic). This seems to be remarkably, amazingly false, as evidenced by parties calling themselves "Libertarian" or a cognate in (at least) Argentina, Australia, Canada, Costa Rica, the Netherlands, New Zealand, and Portugal. [3]
Perhaps the Libertarian Party of Ontario doesn't like being called American. And the Libertarian International Organization seems to have lots of links to non-US libertarian movements under that very name. The International Society for Individual Liberty says even them French dudes got libertarians ? and they don't mean libertarian socialists here at least. ? FOo 05:26, 2 Nov 2004 (UTC)
As I said in the edit sumarries: Paris is not a disambig page, Because of how much more Paris, France is in that term then Paris, Texas.
Libertarniasm socalism is a qualifer on top of Libertarianism. Libertarianism is the default term meaning what the page says it means, Liberarian socalism is a different thing compleatly, and is a qualifer on top it, Much like geoliberatism . NOBODY uses libertarian capatalism besides the 600 pages on google that are opponets of libertarianism.
Look! neither of these terms exist... I don't understand where this movement in wikipedia is coming from, that thinks we should go and make up words, just to make the English language more "fair". 600 googles for Libertarain Capatalism, about the same about for market libertarniasm. Whereas Libertarian Socalism has 11,000. It's obvious here That the word as it's defined means what it means, What is your people's problem? stop trying to 1984 words. Chuck F 12:33, 3 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I'm not sure I understand your stance on this: are you for the exclusively "free market" definition of libertarian or are you calling for a more open definition? Please calm down and explain your arguments. -- Axon 12:46, 3 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I'm for the exclusive free market definition. Libertariasm as the base defininaton right now means The free market definition. Libertarian socalism(it's libertariansm with a qualifer on top) is a different word, therefore has a different definitation and is why people use that.
The guy just posted above all the liberatian parties in different countries... THe only way you can find people that use the term differntly is people in countries that USE A DIFFERENT TERM, but they like it translated as libertarian. Come on. Calling it capatalist Libertarian is just ridiclous, Nobody use that term, Google seriously has as many results for commie democract as they do for capatalist libertarian, that doesn't mean we are redirecting democracy to commie democract or something similar to that Chuck F 14:20, 3 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Michael Badnarik said: "RIGHTS AND PRIVILEGES ARE POLAR OPPOSITES. A RIGHT IS SOMETHING THAT I CAN DO WITHOUT ASKING. A PRIVILEGE IS SOMETHING THAT A HIGHER AUTHORITY ALLOWS ME TO DO. IT IS UTTER NONSENSE FOR US TO ACCEPT GOVERNMENT PERMITS IN ORDER TO EXERCISE AN INALIENABLE RIGHT." -[Project Vote Smart] [4]
At least with regard to the US Libertarian Party-- Perhaps the argument on the use of the word "rights" in the article could center more toward this quote, since the paragraph in context is suppose to show what "Libertarians believe".
I agree. He is one example of a libertarian politician, but not a particularly good libertarian theorist. I should be no more inclined to quote him than, say, George Bush or John Kerry on federalism or democracy, notwithstanding the fact both of them are presumably examples of people who believe in both of these ideas. Besides, as you point out, it is not a well-constructed point icut4u 16:45, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Why has the link to libertarian socialism been deleted from the introduction?
Far be it from me to intrude on this nasty little edit war that has locked the page, but someone might want to fix a broken link one of these days. "Revisiting Anarchism and Government by Tibor R. Machan." is no more. http://www.liberalia.com/htm/tm_minarchists_anarchists.htm times out. -- Branden 01:48, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I found a wonderful essay on libertarianism, at http://sethf.com/essays/major/libstupid.php and would like to see it added to the external links section. thanks.
From the head of the article:
This article deals with the major usage of the word libertarianism. For the use of the term "libertarianism" in the philosophy of free will see libertarianism (philosophy).
"Libertarian" and "libertarianism" are also used to refer to liberty in a general way. For example, someone arguing for civil liberties may be known as a "civil libertarian", regardless of their exact political allegiances.
add the new line:
"Libertarian" and "libertarianism" are also used to refer to anarchists who oppose private property or who support workers control, particularly outside of North America. This politics is more fully explored at Libertarian socialism.
Which should make the disambig clearer than the later line in the body of the article.
No because that's wrong Chuck F 03:40, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)
This is the correct disambiguation, NPOV and factually correct the result of consensus building over a long period (the version that has been protected is a vandalised version):
This article deals with the capitalist version of libertarianism as it is principally understood in the United States and often associated with anarcho-capitalism. For a discussion of the meaning of the term libertarian that is traditional in Europe, see libertarian socialism. It is noted that there are many interpretations of the philosophy in different nations.
For the use of the term "libertarianism" in the philosophy of free will see libertarianism (philosophy).
"Libertarian" and "libertarianism" are also used to refer to liberty in a general way. For example, someone arguing for civil liberties may be known as a "civil libertarian", regardless of their exact political allegiances.
Wtf are you talking about, the result of concenus building over a long time was this
"For a discussion of the meaning of the term libertarian that is traditional in Europe, see libertarian socialism."
not your verison... at least don't lie Chuck F 15:49, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Perhaps someone (wiser than me) could write a bit about the relationship between libertarianism and conservativism (or, more rightly, libertarians and conservatives)? It's relevant to the topic, and a complex and interesting issue.
You all are invited to visit and comment on a draft for a RfC on this and related articles that will eventually likely become a poll. Please remember we are not discussing the topic itself, just the suitable neutral number of issues we want to cover. -- Improv 17:12, 4 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Archives:
I've never used a Talk page before, so if I'm doing this wrongly, please move my comments to where they should be. This statement caught my eye a little bit down the page:
"To me, this statement is meaningless. You can arbitrarily categorise rights as positive or negative. For example, the positive right to food could be categorised as the negative right not to starve. The negative right not to be robbed could be phrased as the positive right to property ownership."
The negative right not to starve will impede on someone's negative rights not to be taxed or to have property/food seized from them.
-nach0king
Will do in future, thank you. Nach0king 17:51, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)
After having been away for a month, I am glad to see that some people have enough sense to point out what was going on. Thank you millerc. The right-wing libertarians can't stand being pointed out for what they are- right-wingers- and so when someone does, they censor that person. It is sad.
Anyways, after watching one of the debates that Michael Badnarik was in with the Green Party's presidential nominee David Cobb, it occured to me that this page is also missing some critical information about right-wing libertarianism. Belief in a non-interventionist foriegn policy, opposition to "state corporatism" (WTO, NAFTA, etc...) and free trade across borders, opposition to the drug war, and the like. It would be interesting to hear a right-wing libertarian explain their views on corporate personhood, though they would probably try to avoid the question by talking about private property instead.
Anyways, this page desperatly needs to be factualized and neutralized and I am going to do it if no one else will.
-Political Nerd
And the fact that that site has Al Franken under the list of Libertarianism reading materials just boggles my mind. 210.142.29.125
I am a life-long libertarian. Until a couple of years ago, when I started getting interested in U.S. politics, I had never thought that the extreme liberalism detailed in this article might seriously be called "libertarianism".
The U.S. has a Democratic Party, and "I'm a Democrat" declared by an American voter means allegiance to this party, and yet "Democrat" and "Democracy" have meanings that go beyond the petty politics of one country. The U.S. has a Republican Party, and "I'm a Republican" declared by an American voter means allegiance to this party, and yet "Republican" and "Republic" have meanings that go beyond the petty politics of one country. The U.S. has a Libertarian Party, and "I'm a Libertarian" declared by an American voter means allegiance to this party, and yet "Libertarian" and "Libertarianism" have meanings that go beyond the petty politics of one country.
Why are the conclusions of the first two statements reflected in the contents of articles such as Democracy, Republic, etc. but not in Libertarianism? Why does this article not actually talk about libertarianism?
Could it be that too high a proportion of contributors are ignorant chauvinists from a certain part of the world? That's a rhetorical question. Chameleon 23:19, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)
The page currently says: For libertarians, there are no "positive rights" (such as to food, shelter, or health care), only "negative rights" (such as to not be assaulted, abused or robbed).
To me, this statement is meaningless. You can arbitrarily categorise rights as positive or negative. For example, the positive right to food could be categorised as the negative right not to starve. The negative right not to be robbed could be phrased as the positive right to property ownership.
As such I think that this is a pretty flimsy statement to be using in the first paragraph of the article, as it really tells us absolutely nothing about what Libertarians actually stand for. Shane King 07:38, Oct 19, 2004 (UTC)
The first point: libertarianism is about liberty. Pure and simple. Some political POV will tolerate libertarians, and others will not. The central idea is that, taken collectively, ordinary people will choose the best path for themselves over time. Other POV hold that, for one reason or another, someone *ELSE* will be better at making that choice. But for a libertarian, liberty is a personal thing with an ultimately good social byproduct of a free country. Other POV put someone else in charge. If you miss this point, you miss the whole banana.
There is no such thing as a "positive" right. It is called an "entitlement". Socialists of various stripes can go over the particulars of these in extreme detail. There is no difference between a "positive right" and a debt. The society *OWES* you <something> and to not pay it is unjust. Has nothing whatsoever to do with libertarianism. It is the cornerstone of collectivism of various stripes. Your rights are to be defended against bullies of all sorts, even political ones.
The key point again: over time, the common people will make decisions in their own best interest -- if you give them freedom. The closer you can come to pushing vital decisions down to the individual level, the closer you will come to the best possible human political organization. Everything else is deduced from this point. Large social organizations foster tyranny.
milesgl
I'm starting to agree with the man. Does it really matter if the ultra-liberals ruin the encyclopaedia? Just as we have to accept that a certain number of articles will be vandalised, a certain number will be hijacked. Chameleon 17:08, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)
milesgl Nov 9, '04
milesgl Nov 9, '04
milesgl Nov 9, '04
The positive/negative formulation of rights is often unclear, but the distinction between certain kinds of rights remains useful and is not merely semantic. Philosophers and libertarians who emphasize negative rights are really positing an individual's "right" to be left alone and to exercise his liberty without interference from others (e.g., free speech), as opposed to a "duty" to promote someone else's welfare (e.g., healthcare), or the latter's corresponding "right" to receive it. Within this formulation there are those who argue these first-order rights are natural, and others who argue that they are prescriptive. Libertarians are not the only ones who emphasize negative rights or the right to liberty, though; for example, John Rawls, who is no libertarian (a la Robert Nozick), also gives liberty...the right to be left alone... precedence in his Theory of Justice. However one characterizes them, and whether or not one believes they have merit (which, after all, is not at issue in an encyclopedia), these alleged rights are central to libertarian and many modern liberal theories (see, for example, Isaiah Berlin). icut4u
milesgl Nov 9, '04
Although I personally can see advantages in moving the article (for example, it seems fairer that Libertarianism doesn't get owned by the right wing side if Anarchism doesn't get owned by the left and is instead shared), I think it was a bit much to just up and move a contentious article like this without discussion. I know you're supposed to assume good intent, but it almost seems an invitation to a flame war, which is hardly a good thing ... Shane King 00:36, Oct 20, 2004 (UTC)
milesgl nov. 10 2004
The move was nonsense, the user who moved it is vandalizing Wikipedia, and I've moved it back. Rhobite 05:10, Oct 20, 2004 (UTC)
Since it looks like we can't reach consensus, perhaps we should make the "libertarianism" page a disambig page, pointing to the various articles that can reasonably lay claim to that name, such as the U.S. political movement, the European political movement, and the philosophical concept.-- The Anome 13:38, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I'm not sure about this. There are plenty of words in English for which there are similar words, but with different meanings, in French or other languages. This page is about the idea which in English is called by the name "libertarianism".
If that is the real source of tension here ? that the French word that looks like the English "libertarianism" is best translated to English as "anarcho-socialism" ? then I do not think a disambiguation page is suitable on the English Wikipedia. Nor would one be appropriate on the French Wikipedia; the French page for libertarianisme or whatever should describe what we in English call anarcho-socialism, if that is what French speakers mean by it.
What does the word "libertarianism" mean to a (neutral) British speaker ? or an Australian, Canadian, or NZ? If it means what it means to an American speaker, then it is the appropriate title of an English Wikipedia page. If, on the other hand, the American use of the term is in fact regional, then this page should be retitled. However, that title should be "Libertarianism (U.S.)" or some such. It should not be "Libertarian capitalism", "Capitalist libertarianism" or any other such Marxoid neologism. ?FOo 22:49, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Retrieved from " http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Libertarianism"
I respect what you are trying to do, Shane, and I do think you're being earnest. However, I am not sure what the relevance of fairness qua equal time is from an editorial perspective. I do not think, for example, the subject of communism needs requires articles on, say, Israeli communism, Marxist communism, and everyone's version of it. I suspect if one were to go to any widely-recognized encyclopedia in the English speaking world, you will find one entry for libertarianism and no entries for capitalist libertarianism, market libertarianism, or, dare I say, socialist libertarianism (as opposed to socialism). To the extent there are several species of it, the artilce should make reference to them. Anyway, that's my view, and I think that FOo and others might be making a similar point. icut4u
I agree with Nat Krause. A Wikipedia article should be about one thing. The prevailing meaning of "anarchism" as far as I have seen it used is anarcho-socialism or anti-capitalist anarchism. If that is the case throughout English, then the article should be about anarcho-socialism, with a disambiguation note at the top to anarcho-capitalism. However, unlike the term "anarcho-capitalism", the term "libertarian capitalism" is not widely used (while Google searches are not a perfect measure, they are a pretty darned good one) and so does not form a useful title for an article.
I must respond to one more of Shane King's points. He asks whether "aesthetic concerns" trump Wikipedia's NPOV policy. I do not think they would. However, accuracy concerns are not merely aesthetic concerns. Neutrality means that we should strive to represent the world as it is, rather than as we may wish it to be.
It is not Wikipedia's job to tell English-speakers that they should use the word "libertarian" to mean something else than what they presently (by and large) use it to mean. The word does have a specific predominant usage (both by libertarians and non-libertarians); and it is a misuse of Wikipedia to choose article titles in an effort to promote the point of view that this predominant usage should be changed. ? FOo 22:49, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I have noticed that most of the recent edits seem to be made by anonymous people without accounts on Wikipedia. I would like to urge people to create accounts and therefore properly identify themselves if participating in any controversy or frequent editing. Chameleon 13:25, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)
There is such ambiguity here that it seems totally inappropriate for one version of libertarianism to occupy one page and another to be classified differently. For neutrality's sake, I think a disambiguation page is necessary here. ReithySockPuppet 21:06, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Contrary to what the most recent revision states, none of the major libertarian theorist of the English-speaking variety (Hospers, Nozick, Hayek, Mises, etc.) uses the descriptor "libertarian capitalism." It is false to say that this is the common understanding or usage among libertarians. For what seems like the 100th time, not all libertarian theorists base their views on economic grounds. Indeed, the principal libertarian theorists of the last fifty years, other than Friedman (Mises and Hayek wrote their seminal works prior to fifty years ago), base their views on moral grounds....stating that it is morally wrong to take someone's fairly acquired property, notwithstanding someone else's end-state theory. One can argue all day long as to whether or not this is the correct view, but this is what they, the libertarians, believe.
Libertarians believe people ought to be left alone as much as possible. That is the essence of negative rights, which was mischaracterized in several previous posts. This position is not a mere linguistic trick. The fact that this allows for free exchange (or relatively free, for few libertarians believe in absolute property rights), disposing of one's property as one sees fit, is what makes the theory compatible with capitalist acts. The latter does not justify the former. It is simply wrong to make out libertarianism to be primarily or solely an economic position. Many libertarain theorists in the English-speaking world believe that it is primarily a matter of moral rights, notwithstanding the economic consequences.
I do not understand why those who find the libertarian position to be disagreeable cannot nevertheless allow it to be defined as its principal proponents would describe it, as opposed to introducing new usage in order to make sometimes subtle and sometimes not so subtle editorial points about their position. That belongs in a critical analysis, not in an objective exposition of the position. I fear that this subject arouses too many passions to ever be accurately described, for long, in this kind of a forum icut4u
I think the current libertarianism article is frought with difficulty. For one thing, it is about anti-libertariansim as much as it is about libertariainsm. For another, there is considerable redundancy, some of which is avoidable. And, it does not explicate several important issues critical to libertarian thought. It is obviously controversial, so I thought a new attempt with several qualifications in defining libertarian philosophy might be in order. I tried to capture all of the important links and major ideas, but did not include the Nolan Chart, though I addressed it, and I certainly would not object to its inclusion. In any event, I offer it for your consideration, improvement (which it certainly needs), and rejection/deletion. The new article is entitled Libertarian theory. I have no objection if most of those who frequent this page simply want to can it, and I won't try to preserve it. icut4u 00:34, 31 Oct 2004 (UTC)
User:172.190.144.30 is now reverting the page under the edit summary "the libertarianism described in this article is found in America only and that should be noted" (sic). This seems to be remarkably, amazingly false, as evidenced by parties calling themselves "Libertarian" or a cognate in (at least) Argentina, Australia, Canada, Costa Rica, the Netherlands, New Zealand, and Portugal. [7]
Perhaps the Libertarian Party of Ontario doesn't like being called American. And the Libertarian International Organization seems to have lots of links to non-US libertarian movements under that very name. The International Society for Individual Liberty says even them French dudes got libertarians ? and they don't mean libertarian socialists here at least. ? FOo 05:26, 2 Nov 2004 (UTC)
As I said in the edit sumarries: Paris is not a disambig page, Because of how much more Paris, France is in that term then Paris, Texas.
Libertarniasm socalism is a qualifer on top of Libertarianism. Libertarianism is the default term meaning what the page says it means, Liberarian socalism is a different thing compleatly, and is a qualifer on top it, Much like geoliberatism . NOBODY uses libertarian capatalism besides the 600 pages on google that are opponets of libertarianism.
Look! neither of these terms exist... I don't understand where this movement in wikipedia is coming from, that thinks we should go and make up words, just to make the English language more "fair". 600 googles for Libertarain Capatalism, about the same about for market libertarniasm. Whereas Libertarian Socalism has 11,000. It's obvious here That the word as it's defined means what it means, What is your people's problem? stop trying to 1984 words. Chuck F 12:33, 3 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I'm not sure I understand your stance on this: are you for the exclusively "free market" definition of libertarian or are you calling for a more open definition? Please calm down and explain your arguments. -- Axon 12:46, 3 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I'm for the exclusive free market definition. Libertariasm as the base defininaton right now means The free market definition. Libertarian socalism(it's libertariansm with a qualifer on top) is a different word, therefore has a different definitation and is why people use that.
The guy just posted above all the liberatian parties in different countries... THe only way you can find people that use the term differntly is people in countries that USE A DIFFERENT TERM, but they like it translated as libertarian. Come on. Calling it capatalist Libertarian is just ridiclous, Nobody use that term, Google seriously has as many results for commie democract as they do for capatalist libertarian, that doesn't mean we are redirecting democracy to commie democract or something similar to that Chuck F 14:20, 3 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Michael Badnarik said: "RIGHTS AND PRIVILEGES ARE POLAR OPPOSITES. A RIGHT IS SOMETHING THAT I CAN DO WITHOUT ASKING. A PRIVILEGE IS SOMETHING THAT A HIGHER AUTHORITY ALLOWS ME TO DO. IT IS UTTER NONSENSE FOR US TO ACCEPT GOVERNMENT PERMITS IN ORDER TO EXERCISE AN INALIENABLE RIGHT." -[Project Vote Smart] [8]
At least with regard to the US Libertarian Party-- Perhaps the argument on the use of the word "rights" in the article could center more toward this quote, since the paragraph in context is suppose to show what "Libertarians believe".
I agree. He is one example of a libertarian politician, but not a particularly good libertarian theorist. I should be no more inclined to quote him than, say, George Bush or John Kerry on federalism or democracy, notwithstanding the fact both of them are presumably examples of people who believe in both of these ideas. Besides, as you point out, it is not a well-constructed point icut4u 16:45, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Why has the link to libertarian socialism been deleted from the introduction?
Far be it from me to intrude on this nasty little edit war that has locked the page, but someone might want to fix a broken link one of these days. "Revisiting Anarchism and Government by Tibor R. Machan." is no more. http://www.liberalia.com/htm/tm_minarchists_anarchists.htm times out. -- Branden 01:48, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I found a wonderful essay on libertarianism, at http://sethf.com/essays/major/libstupid.php and would like to see it added to the external links section. thanks.
From the head of the article:
This article deals with the major usage of the word libertarianism. For the use of the term "libertarianism" in the philosophy of free will see libertarianism (philosophy).
"Libertarian" and "libertarianism" are also used to refer to liberty in a general way. For example, someone arguing for civil liberties may be known as a "civil libertarian", regardless of their exact political allegiances.
add the new line:
"Libertarian" and "libertarianism" are also used to refer to anarchists who oppose private property or who support workers control, particularly outside of North America. This politics is more fully explored at Libertarian socialism.
Which should make the disambig clearer than the later line in the body of the article.
No because that's wrong Chuck F 03:40, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)
This is the correct disambiguation, NPOV and factually correct the result of consensus building over a long period (the version that has been protected is a vandalised version):
This article deals with the capitalist version of libertarianism as it is principally understood in the United States and often associated with anarcho-capitalism. For a discussion of the meaning of the term libertarian that is traditional in Europe, see libertarian socialism. It is noted that there are many interpretations of the philosophy in different nations.
For the use of the term "libertarianism" in the philosophy of free will see libertarianism (philosophy).
"Libertarian" and "libertarianism" are also used to refer to liberty in a general way. For example, someone arguing for civil liberties may be known as a "civil libertarian", regardless of their exact political allegiances.
Wtf are you talking about, the result of concenus building over a long time was this
"For a discussion of the meaning of the term libertarian that is traditional in Europe, see libertarian socialism."
not your verison... at least don't lie Chuck F 15:49, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Perhaps someone (wiser than me) could write a bit about the relationship between libertarianism and conservativism (or, more rightly, libertarians and conservatives)? It's relevant to the topic, and a complex and interesting issue.
You all are invited to visit and comment on a draft for a RfC on this and related articles that will eventually likely become a poll. Please remember we are not discussing the topic itself, just the suitable neutral number of issues we want to cover. -- Improv 17:12, 4 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Ayn Rand is NOT a Libertarian; she makes that point quite clearly. Visit the Ayn Rand Institute website for her Q & A about Libertarians:
http://www.aynrand.org/site/PageServer?pagename=education_campus_libertarians
Please remove her name from the list; she is an Objectivist.
Well, one thing is certain, it makes much more sense to have her on the list than Bill O'Reilly or Bill Mahr, both of whom have appeared on the list at one time or another, and neither of whom are remotely libertarian in their outlook (libertine, conservative, statist, authoritarian, leftist, rightest...perhaps... but certainly not libertarian!). I continue to think Rand would have been very uncomfortable with the appellation, however. Still, many who would consider themselves libertarians (for example, David Boaz, who includes her in his anthology of libertarain authors) have been greatly influenced by her, so it is certainly not an indefensible position. icut4u
I like your suggestion, FOo, especially using the heading "Authors who have influenced libertarianism." This would allow one to include authors and theorists who were clearly influential, but who could not be called libertarian, or who would themselves reject the characterization, as Rand did. The main heading would have to be altered, too; perhaps to something such as "Influential people and adherents." icut4u
The Playboy interview is in it, over which she had no copyright. Read the remarks by the editor and you will observe that her heirs would not allow her works to be included. icut4u
Why was Bill O'reilly deleted? He is very obviously a libertarian. If you think it isn't factual I've seen much bigger bullshit on this dog and pony encyclopedia.
No, not really. In a transcript of one of his broadcasts he suggests that only usage in one's home should be permitted, and in another, he says it only ought to be allowed for medical use, apparently out of sympathy for his friend, Montel Williams. He was very uncharitable to the libertarian guest who advocated decriminalization of drugs. Of course, O'Reilly is notoriously inconsistent. icut4u
I've seen several interviews with Bill Maher where he has claimed to be a Libertarian (most recently on Hannity and Colmes about 3 months ago). Can he be added to the list?
24.166.8.125 21:43, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Hi, as part of the Wiki Syntax project we'd like to make a very minor correction at the start of this article, on this line:
''This article deals with the '''libertarianism''' as defined in [[America]] and several other nations. For a discussion of the meaning of the term '''libertarian''' that is traditional in Europe, see [[libertarian socialism]].
Can we please get a '' added to the end of that line, thus closing the wiki italics quotes? All the best, -- Nickj 04:49, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Please read the Wikipedia entry on "Liberal". Are we meekly going to allow our name to be taken by the statists again?
I'd like to propose that David Brin be added to the Libertarian list of Media personalities.
His writings definitely have a Classical Liberal spin to them. His book the Transparent Society should be familar to many of you.
1) Anarcho-capitalism is a statist ideology. What do you think Rothbard's "defense associations" are? How else will business owners protect their property interests without a state? Inherint in a state is some sort of political hierchy and unequal political power relations, WHICH IS IN THE VERY NATURE OF CAPITALIST RELATIONS BETWEEN WORKERS AND BOSSES.
2) You are NOT classical liberals. A liberal conception of human nature neccessitates a mistrust of concentrated political power, since such power is inherintly authoritarian in nature. The classical liberal thinkers warned against two types of centralized political power- CORPORATE power & businessmen, and GOVERNMENTAL POWER & political rulers. The true heirs of classical liberalism are progressives such as Dennis Kucinich or Ralph Nader, NOT right-wing libertarianism.
3) Classical liberals never warned against socialism. In fact, for almost a CENTURY socialism was the heir of the liberal tradition, from the early 1800's until von Mises and his propogandists came along and tried re-defining what "liberal" and "libertarian" meant.
4) Right-wing libertarians are just APOLIGISTS for corporate capitalism, and SHILLS FOR THE RULING CLASS, and thus the state. Your ideology is FAR from being genuinely libertarian, even if you wish to call it "libertarian." It is about as libertarian as southern slave holders who wished for the federal government to leave them alone.
5) I am sick of you people, your lies, manipulation, and "collectivist" baiting. Your ideology needs to be properly labelled for what it is: RIGHT-WING LIBERTARIANISM. Not "Libertarian" (a libertarian is a type of socialist) or "Libertarianism" (opposition to central political power) You are right-wing libertarians. Period. If you don't agree, then you can go argue with some REAL libertarians- www.infoshop.org
Property and the Market
Liberal political theory, then, fractures over the conception of liberty. But a more important division concerns the place of private property and the market order. For classical liberals liberty and private property are intimately related. From the eighteenth century right up to today, classical liberals have insisted that an economic system based on private property is uniquely consistent with individual liberty, allowing each to live her life — including employing her labour and her capital — as she sees fit. Indeed, classical liberals and libertarians have often asserted that in some way liberty and property are really the same thing; it has been argued, for example, that all rights, including liberty rights, are forms of property; others have maintained that property is itself a form of freedom (Gaus, 1994a; Steiner, 1994). A market order based on private property is thus seen an embodiment of freedom (Robbins, 1961: 104). Unless people are free to make contracts and to sell their labour, or unless they are free to save their incomes and then invest them as they see fit, or unless they are free to run enterprises when they have obtained the capital, they are not really free.
Classical liberals employ a second argument connecting liberty and private property. Rather than insisting that the freedom to obtain and employ private property is simply one aspect of people's liberty, this second argument insists that private property is the only effective means for the protection of liberty. Here the idea is that the dispersion of power that results from a free market economy based on private property protects the liberty of subjects against encroachments by the state. As F.A. Hayek argues, ‘There can be no freedom of press if the instruments of printing are under government control, no freedom of assembly if the needed rooms are so controlled, no freedom of movement if the means of transport are a government monopoly’ (1978: 149). http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/liberalism/-- Stratofortress 20:00, 20 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I would have to agree that the kind of lbertarianism described in this article is right-wing lbertarianism.
However, AFAIK left-wing libertarians mostly don't call themselves libertarians any more. They simply call themselves anarchists.
IMHO the article should state that the kind of libertarianism defined here is right-wing and has nothing to do with socialism.
It's an oxymoron, communist believe in an absense of economic freedom, and usually the absense of personal freedom. Libertarians believe in both economic and personal freedom. Now personally, I believe a libertarian government would lead to a take over by a communist government in the form of a massive corporation. Think of it this way, without laws restricting trusts, eventually one corporation will have bought or out competed every other corporation out there. This corporation would run your mail, the military's weapons, you would work for them and therefore have to abide by their rules. The corporation would own your housing and make rules regarding what you can and cannot do in your home, just as any landlord can. In essence, a libertarian government would turn into a communistic one.
Wikipedia isn't a place where to discuss whether libertarianism works or not.-- 80.235.62.100 12:27, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I edited Classical Liberalism and Libertarianism on a few minor points. Firstly Classical Liberalism is not used as a synonym for Libertarianism outside the US. Secondly "neo-classical Liberalism" is another name for neo-liberalism, not Libertarianism. Thirdly the conclusion was not NPOV, it just swept aside the criticisms and said that they were essentially the same. And lastly, it tried to equate new liberalism with socialism. Slizor 13:39, 2005 Feb 14 (UTC)
I'm suspicious of the stuff about utilitarian libertarians. If they exist at all, they're certainly not influential. Can anyone verify the stuff in the article? Or should it be removed? Or should there be a caveat that says that they're in the minority? Dave 04:59, Mar 14, 2005 (UTC)
All right. I think " consequentialist" might be better than "utilitarian," but I'll buy that. Dave
According to the relevant Wikipedia entries,
The consequentialist libertarians icut4you mentioned are pretty clearly in the first camp, so I changed the article. Hopefully everyone will agree this is an improvement. If not, we can discuss. Dave 05:46, Mar 14, 2005 (UTC)
I've been looking through it (and heavily modifying it) and the warning seems unwarranted to me. It looks like most of the reasonable complaints of people on the talk page have been addressed. Can we take down the big red sign? I want to make this a featured article soon. Dave 06:24, Mar 14, 2005 (UTC)
Dave 20:38, Mar 14, 2005 (UTC)
I went through the first hundred hits in google for “libertarian.” Here are the first 20 hits with the reason they fit my definition (except for Libertarian rock, which I think is civil-libertarian):
…..
After the first 20, I stopped listing ones that support my position, and just looked for exceptions. I couldn’t find anything “socialist” at all until hit #29 (nazi.org). Until then, everything fits my definition except possibly the “libertarian rock” site above. The next site that wasn’t libertarian was #45, and it was ‘’about’’ libertarianism, as I’ve defined it. #54 is Wikipedia’s “Libertarian Socialism” article. #68 is the same as 45. At hit #79, we get a the second site that uses libertarianism in a way other than the article. And they always qualify the term with something like “people’s libertarian” or “left-libertarian” or “libertarian communism.” Hit # 96 is the same as 79.
So really, in the first hundred hits on google, we have ‘’zero’’ sites that use “libertarian” without a qualifier to mean “libertarian socialism” except for Nazi.org. I think we should all agree that the definition the article currently uses is the most common and move on to the article itself. I think it's time to take the big red sign down. If anyone can come up with a reason that the top 100 sites on Google are wrong, they can put it back up. Dave 23:38, Mar 14, 2005 (UTC)
It looks like it's settled, then. Thank God. Dave 02:18, Mar 15, 2005 (UTC)
Makes sense. I'd think libertarian socialists would be more unlikely to be able to afford a computer (especially given that they think getting a job is exploitation). And, they may not even want a computer, since capitalists produced them. RJII 04:16, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Anyone who still thinks that this definition is not the most common is welcome to find a book that uses "libertarian" in a different way without a qualifier like "left libertarian" or "people's libertarian" or "libertarian communism." Presumably if the people who use the term differently neither write books nor use the web, they are less important and widespread than libertarians as defined here. Until you come up with evidence that anyone other than the "libertarian green nazi party" described above uses libertarianism your way, I think the presumption should be with the 99 websites I point to above. Dave 19:28, Mar 19, 2005 (UTC)
I reverted some of RJIII's recent mass changes to the article because it seemed to me that they were inserting spit words and propogandising. One example is referring to Europe diminutively as "Old Europe". Please take a look over his recent edits to the page. -- Improv 23:17, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I've been very impressed with RJII's work on this page. When I have time (probably not for about a week) I'll do some more work on it myself. I just did a comparison between the current version of the article and what it was last sunday when I first saw it; it's a huge difference. Dave 03:21, Mar 18, 2005 (UTC)
WTF? It is a known fact that the paris commune was brutally attacked by governmental forces. Describing this as "crushed" was just fine, but then changing it to collapse was ridiculous. Like it just fell apart on its own or something. And that is exactly how you are describing it, whoops, it fell! No, it was suppressed: (www.m-w.com) : to put down by authority or force : SUBDUE. Kev 20:55, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Whatever. Cities fall when sieges succeed. If you feel that strongly about it, you can keep it as "suppressed" but I'll add "by the French governmen" to make it clear what's going on. Dave 21:48, Mar 19, 2005 (UTC)
I'd like your help writing an "anarchist criticism" in the criticisms section. It seems like your domain. If you could write something up (preferably with lots of sources) that would be great. Thanks in advance, Dave 19:36, Mar 20, 2005 (UTC)
I have a problem with the IRS definition being in the Intro. First of all, I don't think it's a good definition. For example, "harm others"? That's too vague. Secondly, why is the Internal Revenue Service given any credibility there when the IRS represents everything libertarians are against? Who cares what the IRS says? Putting them there in the intro as an authority on libertarianism is beyond bizarre. RJII 03:08, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I think the weakest points of this article are history, statism, capitalism, and rights (which are some of the most important areas). Let's try to get this at least as good as the anarcho-capitalist article. Dave 04:04, Mar 21, 2005 (UTC)
I removed a bunch of publications I thought weren't useful enough for links. I was probably overzealous, so if anyone wants to put some back, that's cool. Here's the original list: [redacted linkspam] Dave 04:50, Mar 25, 2005 (UTC)
"Libertarians see this decentralized authority as less dangerous than any centralized, monopoly authority that uses force. Libertarians contend that government power will inevitably act against the interests of most of society, notwithstanding the original good intentions."
The problem with this statement is not that it isn't true, it is. The problem is that it is being used to compared the libertarian position with Chomsky, and that makes it nothing more than a straw-man, since this is not the position he holds. Kev 07:08, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Should the article include long lists of libertarians? I don't want to delete 134.68.43.148's work without discussing it first. Dave 20:48, Mar 28, 2005 (UTC)
I put the cleanup template on the Individualism, property.... section (currently section 3. It and the "statism" section (3.2) are the weakest parts of the article, but I'm not sure how to fix them (possibly spinning off into new sections, definitely shortening them). I was hoping for some help, and I thought directing your attention there would be useful. Dave 04:44, Mar 30, 2005 (UTC)
Trying to figure out how to work on this section. Statism is commonly defined as centralized governmental control over an economy. For example Merriam-Webster defines it as " concentration of economic controls and planning in the hands of a highly centralized government." But apparently some people take it to include government control over civil liberties. I'm not aware of this is being correct usage --if it is, it's not as widely used in that way. I tried before to get this section to focus only on economic issues, but some people apparently like to include civil liberties issues as well. I suggest it sticks to the typical definition of statism. What does everyone else think? RJII 06:02, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC) Now that I think about it, the anti-statism section should be integrated with the Libertarian Economic Views section. RJII 14:01, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)
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Ayn Rand was not a libertarian. She claimed strongly that the libertarian movement was a badly done rip-off of Objectivism.
http://www.aynrand.org/site/PageServer?pagename=education_campus_libertarians
This is an article by the Ayn Rand Institute showing all the comments she has made on libertarianism and the libertarian party.
I removed her name from the list of libertarians.
(Not sure if I'm doing this correctly, but this is someone else adding a note:) Libertarians and Objectivists find a lot of common ground (centered largely around personal responsibility), and indeed they're often grouped together, but Objectivism is a broad moral code and libertarianism is just a political philosophy. Ayn Rand stressed repeatedly that Objectivism was not a political philosophy, even if it has political implications, like any moral code (I can find exact quotes if necessary). Some diehard Objectivists vehemently oppose libertarianism simply because Ayn Rand told them to; there is much less animosity the other way around. The two really don't contradict each other, and in fact they tend to suggest each other.
An objectivist believes in a libertarian society. I think Rand was against people who were calling themselves libertarians at the time (and were libertarians) but that had no rational philosophical foundation for the advocacy of libertarianism. Apparently, she felt that her philosophy was the only or the only proper way of arriving at the belief in what libertarianism describes. So, I think it's clear she is a libertarian, but she would never join the Libertarian Party (large "L") because she would say that that that political party does not have a cogent philosophical foundation in its platform. RJII 05:09, 3 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I've never used a Talk page before, so if I'm doing this wrongly, please move my comments to where they should be. This statement caught my eye a little bit down the page:
"To me, this statement is meaningless. You can arbitrarily categorise rights as positive or negative. For example, the positive right to food could be categorised as the negative right not to starve. The negative right not to be robbed could be phrased as the positive right to property ownership."
The negative right not to starve will impede on someone's negative rights not to be taxed or to have property/food seized from them.
-nach0king
Will do in future, thank you. Nach0king 17:51, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)
As I understand it, the Capitalist Libertarian positive rights and negative rights idea hinges on a particular framework of action versus inaction. A positive right implies that another party is obliged to perform an act to meet/respect that right, while a negative right implies that another person is obliged not to act in order not to violate that right. In the example provided, a provided right to food can only be easily phrased as a positive right -- the right requires that a third party commit an action (feed me!) to meet/respect the right. Of course, there are some examples where it's not so possible to cleanly argue, within that framework, that a right can suffice as positive or negative, except from within an existing framework of proper social relations, such as contracts, property, and the like (which C.L. philosophy does some work towards providing). Hopefully this'll prove enlightening -- I was once really into the philosophy involved. -- Improv 22:53, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)
"Negative" and "Positive" rights are merely well-understood labels, arbitrary as it may seem. Negative rights are the rights to be left alone. Positive rights require the coercion of other people to ensure your "rights". Which, do you think, is libertarian?
After having been away for a month, I am glad to see that some people have enough sense to point out what was going on. Thank you millerc. The right-wing libertarians can't stand being pointed out for what they are- right-wingers- and so when someone does, they censor that person. It is sad.
Anyways, after watching one of the debates that Michael Badnarik was in with the Green Party's presidential nominee David Cobb, it occured to me that this page is also missing some critical information about right-wing libertarianism. Belief in a non-interventionist foriegn policy, opposition to "state corporatism" (WTO, NAFTA, etc...) and free trade across borders, opposition to the drug war, and the like. It would be interesting to hear a right-wing libertarian explain their views on corporate personhood, though they would probably try to avoid the question by talking about private property instead.
Anyways, this page desperatly needs to be factualized and neutralized and I am going to do it if no one else will.
-Political Nerd
And the fact that that site has Al Franken under the list of Libertarianism reading materials just boggles my mind. 210.142.29.125
I am a life-long libertarian. Until a couple of years ago, when I started getting interested in U.S. politics, I had never thought that the extreme liberalism detailed in this article might seriously be called "libertarianism".
The U.S. has a Democratic Party, and "I'm a Democrat" declared by an American voter means allegiance to this party, and yet "Democrat" and "Democracy" have meanings that go beyond the petty politics of one country. The U.S. has a Republican Party, and "I'm a Republican" declared by an American voter means allegiance to this party, and yet "Republican" and "Republic" have meanings that go beyond the petty politics of one country. The U.S. has a Libertarian Party, and "I'm a Libertarian" declared by an American voter means allegiance to this party, and yet "Libertarian" and "Libertarianism" have meanings that go beyond the petty politics of one country.
Why are the conclusions of the first two statements reflected in the contents of articles such as Democracy, Republic, etc. but not in Libertarianism? Why does this article not actually talk about libertarianism?
Could it be that too high a proportion of contributors are ignorant chauvinists from a certain part of the world? That's a rhetorical question. Chameleon 23:19, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)
The page currently says: For libertarians, there are no "positive rights" (such as to food, shelter, or health care), only "negative rights" (such as to not be assaulted, abused or robbed).
I might remind people that the term "positive rights" as contrasted with "negative" or "social" rights was coined by Communist China during the Cultural Revolution. 24.13.116.219 02:42, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC)
To me, this statement is meaningless. You can arbitrarily categorise rights as positive or negative. For example, the positive right to food could be categorised as the negative right not to starve. The negative right not to be robbed could be phrased as the positive right to property ownership.
As such I think that this is a pretty flimsy statement to be using in the first paragraph of the article, as it really tells us absolutely nothing about what Libertarians actually stand for. Shane King 07:38, Oct 19, 2004 (UTC)
The first point: libertarianism is about liberty. Pure and simple. Some political POV will tolerate libertarians, and others will not. The central idea is that, taken collectively, ordinary people will choose the best path for themselves over time. Other POV hold that, for one reason or another, someone *ELSE* will be better at making that choice. But for a libertarian, liberty is a personal thing with an ultimately good social byproduct of a free country. Other POV put someone else in charge. If you miss this point, you miss the whole banana.
There is no such thing as a "positive" right. It is called an "entitlement". Socialists of various stripes can go over the particulars of these in extreme detail. There is no difference between a "positive right" and a debt. The society *OWES* you <something> and to not pay it is unjust. Has nothing whatsoever to do with libertarianism. It is the cornerstone of collectivism of various stripes. Your rights are to be defended against bullies of all sorts, even political ones.
The key point again: over time, the common people will make decisions in their own best interest -- if you give them freedom. The closer you can come to pushing vital decisions down to the individual level, the closer you will come to the best possible human political organization. Everything else is deduced from this point. Large social organizations foster tyranny.
milesgl
I'm starting to agree with the man. Does it really matter if the ultra-liberals ruin the encyclopaedia? Just as we have to accept that a certain number of articles will be vandalised, a certain number will be hijacked. Chameleon 17:08, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)
milesgl Nov 9, '04
milesgl Nov 9, '04
milesgl Nov 9, '04
The positive/negative formulation of rights is often unclear, but the distinction between certain kinds of rights remains useful and is not merely semantic. Philosophers and libertarians who emphasize negative rights are really positing an individual's "right" to be left alone and to exercise his liberty without interference from others (e.g., free speech), as opposed to a "duty" to promote someone else's welfare (e.g., healthcare), or the latter's corresponding "right" to receive it. Within this formulation there are those who argue these first-order rights are natural, and others who argue that they are prescriptive. Libertarians are not the only ones who emphasize negative rights or the right to liberty, though; for example, John Rawls, who is no libertarian (a la Robert Nozick), also gives liberty...the right to be left alone... precedence in his Theory of Justice. However one characterizes them, and whether or not one believes they have merit (which, after all, is not at issue in an encyclopedia), these alleged rights are central to libertarian and many modern liberal theories (see, for example, Isaiah Berlin). icut4u
milesgl Nov 9, '04
Although I personally can see advantages in moving the article (for example, it seems fairer that Libertarianism doesn't get owned by the right wing side if Anarchism doesn't get owned by the left and is instead shared), I think it was a bit much to just up and move a contentious article like this without discussion. I know you're supposed to assume good intent, but it almost seems an invitation to a flame war, which is hardly a good thing ... Shane King 00:36, Oct 20, 2004 (UTC)
milesgl nov. 10 2004
The move was nonsense, the user who moved it is vandalizing Wikipedia, and I've moved it back. Rhobite 05:10, Oct 20, 2004 (UTC)
Since it looks like we can't reach consensus, perhaps we should make the "libertarianism" page a disambig page, pointing to the various articles that can reasonably lay claim to that name, such as the U.S. political movement, the European political movement, and the philosophical concept.-- The Anome 13:38, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I'm not sure about this. There are plenty of words in English for which there are similar words, but with different meanings, in French or other languages. This page is about the idea which in English is called by the name "libertarianism".
If that is the real source of tension here ? that the French word that looks like the English "libertarianism" is best translated to English as "anarcho-socialism" ? then I do not think a disambiguation page is suitable on the English Wikipedia. Nor would one be appropriate on the French Wikipedia; the French page for libertarianisme or whatever should describe what we in English call anarcho-socialism, if that is what French speakers mean by it.
What does the word "libertarianism" mean to a (neutral) British speaker ? or an Australian, Canadian, or NZ? If it means what it means to an American speaker, then it is the appropriate title of an English Wikipedia page. If, on the other hand, the American use of the term is in fact regional, then this page should be retitled. However, that title should be "Libertarianism (U.S.)" or some such. It should not be "Libertarian capitalism", "Capitalist libertarianism" or any other such Marxoid neologism. ?FOo 22:49, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Retrieved from " http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Libertarianism"
I respect what you are trying to do, Shane, and I do think you're being earnest. However, I am not sure what the relevance of fairness qua equal time is from an editorial perspective. I do not think, for example, the subject of communism needs requires articles on, say, Israeli communism, Marxist communism, and everyone's version of it. I suspect if one were to go to any widely-recognized encyclopedia in the English speaking world, you will find one entry for libertarianism and no entries for capitalist libertarianism, market libertarianism, or, dare I say, socialist libertarianism (as opposed to socialism). To the extent there are several species of it, the artilce should make reference to them. Anyway, that's my view, and I think that FOo and others might be making a similar point. icut4u
I agree with Nat Krause. A Wikipedia article should be about one thing. The prevailing meaning of "anarchism" as far as I have seen it used is anarcho-socialism or anti-capitalist anarchism. If that is the case throughout English, then the article should be about anarcho-socialism, with a disambiguation note at the top to anarcho-capitalism. However, unlike the term "anarcho-capitalism", the term "libertarian capitalism" is not widely used (while Google searches are not a perfect measure, they are a pretty darned good one) and so does not form a useful title for an article.
I must respond to one more of Shane King's points. He asks whether "aesthetic concerns" trump Wikipedia's NPOV policy. I do not think they would. However, accuracy concerns are not merely aesthetic concerns. Neutrality means that we should strive to represent the world as it is, rather than as we may wish it to be.
It is not Wikipedia's job to tell English-speakers that they should use the word "libertarian" to mean something else than what they presently (by and large) use it to mean. The word does have a specific predominant usage (both by libertarians and non-libertarians); and it is a misuse of Wikipedia to choose article titles in an effort to promote the point of view that this predominant usage should be changed. ? FOo 22:49, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I have noticed that most of the recent edits seem to be made by anonymous people without accounts on Wikipedia. I would like to urge people to create accounts and therefore properly identify themselves if participating in any controversy or frequent editing. Chameleon 13:25, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)
There is such ambiguity here that it seems totally inappropriate for one version of libertarianism to occupy one page and another to be classified differently. For neutrality's sake, I think a disambiguation page is necessary here. ReithySockPuppet 21:06, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Contrary to what the most recent revision states, none of the major libertarian theorist of the English-speaking variety (Hospers, Nozick, Hayek, Mises, etc.) uses the descriptor "libertarian capitalism." It is false to say that this is the common understanding or usage among libertarians. For what seems like the 100th time, not all libertarian theorists base their views on economic grounds. Indeed, the principal libertarian theorists of the last fifty years, other than Friedman (Mises and Hayek wrote their seminal works prior to fifty years ago), base their views on moral grounds....stating that it is morally wrong to take someone's fairly acquired property, notwithstanding someone else's end-state theory. One can argue all day long as to whether or not this is the correct view, but this is what they, the libertarians, believe.
Libertarians believe people ought to be left alone as much as possible. That is the essence of negative rights, which was mischaracterized in several previous posts. This position is not a mere linguistic trick. The fact that this allows for free exchange (or relatively free, for few libertarians believe in absolute property rights), disposing of one's property as one sees fit, is what makes the theory compatible with capitalist acts. The latter does not justify the former. It is simply wrong to make out libertarianism to be primarily or solely an economic position. Many libertarain theorists in the English-speaking world believe that it is primarily a matter of moral rights, notwithstanding the economic consequences.
I do not understand why those who find the libertarian position to be disagreeable cannot nevertheless allow it to be defined as its principal proponents would describe it, as opposed to introducing new usage in order to make sometimes subtle and sometimes not so subtle editorial points about their position. That belongs in a critical analysis, not in an objective exposition of the position. I fear that this subject arouses too many passions to ever be accurately described, for long, in this kind of a forum icut4u
I think the current libertarianism article is frought with difficulty. For one thing, it is about anti-libertariansim as much as it is about libertariainsm. For another, there is considerable redundancy, some of which is avoidable. And, it does not explicate several important issues critical to libertarian thought. It is obviously controversial, so I thought a new attempt with several qualifications in defining libertarian philosophy might be in order. I tried to capture all of the important links and major ideas, but did not include the Nolan Chart, though I addressed it, and I certainly would not object to its inclusion. In any event, I offer it for your consideration, improvement (which it certainly needs), and rejection/deletion. The new article is entitled Libertarian theory. I have no objection if most of those who frequent this page simply want to can it, and I won't try to preserve it. icut4u 00:34, 31 Oct 2004 (UTC)
User:172.190.144.30 is now reverting the page under the edit summary "the libertarianism described in this article is found in America only and that should be noted" (sic). This seems to be remarkably, amazingly false, as evidenced by parties calling themselves "Libertarian" or a cognate in (at least) Argentina, Australia, Canada, Costa Rica, the Netherlands, New Zealand, and Portugal. [3]
Perhaps the Libertarian Party of Ontario doesn't like being called American. And the Libertarian International Organization seems to have lots of links to non-US libertarian movements under that very name. The International Society for Individual Liberty says even them French dudes got libertarians ? and they don't mean libertarian socialists here at least. ? FOo 05:26, 2 Nov 2004 (UTC)
As I said in the edit sumarries: Paris is not a disambig page, Because of how much more Paris, France is in that term then Paris, Texas.
Libertarniasm socalism is a qualifer on top of Libertarianism. Libertarianism is the default term meaning what the page says it means, Liberarian socalism is a different thing compleatly, and is a qualifer on top it, Much like geoliberatism . NOBODY uses libertarian capatalism besides the 600 pages on google that are opponets of libertarianism.
Look! neither of these terms exist... I don't understand where this movement in wikipedia is coming from, that thinks we should go and make up words, just to make the English language more "fair". 600 googles for Libertarain Capatalism, about the same about for market libertarniasm. Whereas Libertarian Socalism has 11,000. It's obvious here That the word as it's defined means what it means, What is your people's problem? stop trying to 1984 words. Chuck F 12:33, 3 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I'm not sure I understand your stance on this: are you for the exclusively "free market" definition of libertarian or are you calling for a more open definition? Please calm down and explain your arguments. -- Axon 12:46, 3 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I'm for the exclusive free market definition. Libertariasm as the base defininaton right now means The free market definition. Libertarian socalism(it's libertariansm with a qualifer on top) is a different word, therefore has a different definitation and is why people use that.
The guy just posted above all the liberatian parties in different countries... THe only way you can find people that use the term differntly is people in countries that USE A DIFFERENT TERM, but they like it translated as libertarian. Come on. Calling it capatalist Libertarian is just ridiclous, Nobody use that term, Google seriously has as many results for commie democract as they do for capatalist libertarian, that doesn't mean we are redirecting democracy to commie democract or something similar to that Chuck F 14:20, 3 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Michael Badnarik said: "RIGHTS AND PRIVILEGES ARE POLAR OPPOSITES. A RIGHT IS SOMETHING THAT I CAN DO WITHOUT ASKING. A PRIVILEGE IS SOMETHING THAT A HIGHER AUTHORITY ALLOWS ME TO DO. IT IS UTTER NONSENSE FOR US TO ACCEPT GOVERNMENT PERMITS IN ORDER TO EXERCISE AN INALIENABLE RIGHT." -[Project Vote Smart] [4]
At least with regard to the US Libertarian Party-- Perhaps the argument on the use of the word "rights" in the article could center more toward this quote, since the paragraph in context is suppose to show what "Libertarians believe".
I agree. He is one example of a libertarian politician, but not a particularly good libertarian theorist. I should be no more inclined to quote him than, say, George Bush or John Kerry on federalism or democracy, notwithstanding the fact both of them are presumably examples of people who believe in both of these ideas. Besides, as you point out, it is not a well-constructed point icut4u 16:45, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Why has the link to libertarian socialism been deleted from the introduction?
Far be it from me to intrude on this nasty little edit war that has locked the page, but someone might want to fix a broken link one of these days. "Revisiting Anarchism and Government by Tibor R. Machan." is no more. http://www.liberalia.com/htm/tm_minarchists_anarchists.htm times out. -- Branden 01:48, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I found a wonderful essay on libertarianism, at http://sethf.com/essays/major/libstupid.php and would like to see it added to the external links section. thanks.
From the head of the article:
This article deals with the major usage of the word libertarianism. For the use of the term "libertarianism" in the philosophy of free will see libertarianism (philosophy).
"Libertarian" and "libertarianism" are also used to refer to liberty in a general way. For example, someone arguing for civil liberties may be known as a "civil libertarian", regardless of their exact political allegiances.
add the new line:
"Libertarian" and "libertarianism" are also used to refer to anarchists who oppose private property or who support workers control, particularly outside of North America. This politics is more fully explored at Libertarian socialism.
Which should make the disambig clearer than the later line in the body of the article.
No because that's wrong Chuck F 03:40, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)
This is the correct disambiguation, NPOV and factually correct the result of consensus building over a long period (the version that has been protected is a vandalised version):
This article deals with the capitalist version of libertarianism as it is principally understood in the United States and often associated with anarcho-capitalism. For a discussion of the meaning of the term libertarian that is traditional in Europe, see libertarian socialism. It is noted that there are many interpretations of the philosophy in different nations.
For the use of the term "libertarianism" in the philosophy of free will see libertarianism (philosophy).
"Libertarian" and "libertarianism" are also used to refer to liberty in a general way. For example, someone arguing for civil liberties may be known as a "civil libertarian", regardless of their exact political allegiances.
Wtf are you talking about, the result of concenus building over a long time was this
"For a discussion of the meaning of the term libertarian that is traditional in Europe, see libertarian socialism."
not your verison... at least don't lie Chuck F 15:49, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Perhaps someone (wiser than me) could write a bit about the relationship between libertarianism and conservativism (or, more rightly, libertarians and conservatives)? It's relevant to the topic, and a complex and interesting issue.
You all are invited to visit and comment on a draft for a RfC on this and related articles that will eventually likely become a poll. Please remember we are not discussing the topic itself, just the suitable neutral number of issues we want to cover. -- Improv 17:12, 4 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Archives:
I've never used a Talk page before, so if I'm doing this wrongly, please move my comments to where they should be. This statement caught my eye a little bit down the page:
"To me, this statement is meaningless. You can arbitrarily categorise rights as positive or negative. For example, the positive right to food could be categorised as the negative right not to starve. The negative right not to be robbed could be phrased as the positive right to property ownership."
The negative right not to starve will impede on someone's negative rights not to be taxed or to have property/food seized from them.
-nach0king
Will do in future, thank you. Nach0king 17:51, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)
After having been away for a month, I am glad to see that some people have enough sense to point out what was going on. Thank you millerc. The right-wing libertarians can't stand being pointed out for what they are- right-wingers- and so when someone does, they censor that person. It is sad.
Anyways, after watching one of the debates that Michael Badnarik was in with the Green Party's presidential nominee David Cobb, it occured to me that this page is also missing some critical information about right-wing libertarianism. Belief in a non-interventionist foriegn policy, opposition to "state corporatism" (WTO, NAFTA, etc...) and free trade across borders, opposition to the drug war, and the like. It would be interesting to hear a right-wing libertarian explain their views on corporate personhood, though they would probably try to avoid the question by talking about private property instead.
Anyways, this page desperatly needs to be factualized and neutralized and I am going to do it if no one else will.
-Political Nerd
And the fact that that site has Al Franken under the list of Libertarianism reading materials just boggles my mind. 210.142.29.125
I am a life-long libertarian. Until a couple of years ago, when I started getting interested in U.S. politics, I had never thought that the extreme liberalism detailed in this article might seriously be called "libertarianism".
The U.S. has a Democratic Party, and "I'm a Democrat" declared by an American voter means allegiance to this party, and yet "Democrat" and "Democracy" have meanings that go beyond the petty politics of one country. The U.S. has a Republican Party, and "I'm a Republican" declared by an American voter means allegiance to this party, and yet "Republican" and "Republic" have meanings that go beyond the petty politics of one country. The U.S. has a Libertarian Party, and "I'm a Libertarian" declared by an American voter means allegiance to this party, and yet "Libertarian" and "Libertarianism" have meanings that go beyond the petty politics of one country.
Why are the conclusions of the first two statements reflected in the contents of articles such as Democracy, Republic, etc. but not in Libertarianism? Why does this article not actually talk about libertarianism?
Could it be that too high a proportion of contributors are ignorant chauvinists from a certain part of the world? That's a rhetorical question. Chameleon 23:19, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)
The page currently says: For libertarians, there are no "positive rights" (such as to food, shelter, or health care), only "negative rights" (such as to not be assaulted, abused or robbed).
To me, this statement is meaningless. You can arbitrarily categorise rights as positive or negative. For example, the positive right to food could be categorised as the negative right not to starve. The negative right not to be robbed could be phrased as the positive right to property ownership.
As such I think that this is a pretty flimsy statement to be using in the first paragraph of the article, as it really tells us absolutely nothing about what Libertarians actually stand for. Shane King 07:38, Oct 19, 2004 (UTC)
The first point: libertarianism is about liberty. Pure and simple. Some political POV will tolerate libertarians, and others will not. The central idea is that, taken collectively, ordinary people will choose the best path for themselves over time. Other POV hold that, for one reason or another, someone *ELSE* will be better at making that choice. But for a libertarian, liberty is a personal thing with an ultimately good social byproduct of a free country. Other POV put someone else in charge. If you miss this point, you miss the whole banana.
There is no such thing as a "positive" right. It is called an "entitlement". Socialists of various stripes can go over the particulars of these in extreme detail. There is no difference between a "positive right" and a debt. The society *OWES* you <something> and to not pay it is unjust. Has nothing whatsoever to do with libertarianism. It is the cornerstone of collectivism of various stripes. Your rights are to be defended against bullies of all sorts, even political ones.
The key point again: over time, the common people will make decisions in their own best interest -- if you give them freedom. The closer you can come to pushing vital decisions down to the individual level, the closer you will come to the best possible human political organization. Everything else is deduced from this point. Large social organizations foster tyranny.
milesgl
I'm starting to agree with the man. Does it really matter if the ultra-liberals ruin the encyclopaedia? Just as we have to accept that a certain number of articles will be vandalised, a certain number will be hijacked. Chameleon 17:08, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)
milesgl Nov 9, '04
milesgl Nov 9, '04
milesgl Nov 9, '04
The positive/negative formulation of rights is often unclear, but the distinction between certain kinds of rights remains useful and is not merely semantic. Philosophers and libertarians who emphasize negative rights are really positing an individual's "right" to be left alone and to exercise his liberty without interference from others (e.g., free speech), as opposed to a "duty" to promote someone else's welfare (e.g., healthcare), or the latter's corresponding "right" to receive it. Within this formulation there are those who argue these first-order rights are natural, and others who argue that they are prescriptive. Libertarians are not the only ones who emphasize negative rights or the right to liberty, though; for example, John Rawls, who is no libertarian (a la Robert Nozick), also gives liberty...the right to be left alone... precedence in his Theory of Justice. However one characterizes them, and whether or not one believes they have merit (which, after all, is not at issue in an encyclopedia), these alleged rights are central to libertarian and many modern liberal theories (see, for example, Isaiah Berlin). icut4u
milesgl Nov 9, '04
Although I personally can see advantages in moving the article (for example, it seems fairer that Libertarianism doesn't get owned by the right wing side if Anarchism doesn't get owned by the left and is instead shared), I think it was a bit much to just up and move a contentious article like this without discussion. I know you're supposed to assume good intent, but it almost seems an invitation to a flame war, which is hardly a good thing ... Shane King 00:36, Oct 20, 2004 (UTC)
milesgl nov. 10 2004
The move was nonsense, the user who moved it is vandalizing Wikipedia, and I've moved it back. Rhobite 05:10, Oct 20, 2004 (UTC)
Since it looks like we can't reach consensus, perhaps we should make the "libertarianism" page a disambig page, pointing to the various articles that can reasonably lay claim to that name, such as the U.S. political movement, the European political movement, and the philosophical concept.-- The Anome 13:38, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I'm not sure about this. There are plenty of words in English for which there are similar words, but with different meanings, in French or other languages. This page is about the idea which in English is called by the name "libertarianism".
If that is the real source of tension here ? that the French word that looks like the English "libertarianism" is best translated to English as "anarcho-socialism" ? then I do not think a disambiguation page is suitable on the English Wikipedia. Nor would one be appropriate on the French Wikipedia; the French page for libertarianisme or whatever should describe what we in English call anarcho-socialism, if that is what French speakers mean by it.
What does the word "libertarianism" mean to a (neutral) British speaker ? or an Australian, Canadian, or NZ? If it means what it means to an American speaker, then it is the appropriate title of an English Wikipedia page. If, on the other hand, the American use of the term is in fact regional, then this page should be retitled. However, that title should be "Libertarianism (U.S.)" or some such. It should not be "Libertarian capitalism", "Capitalist libertarianism" or any other such Marxoid neologism. ?FOo 22:49, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Retrieved from " http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Libertarianism"
I respect what you are trying to do, Shane, and I do think you're being earnest. However, I am not sure what the relevance of fairness qua equal time is from an editorial perspective. I do not think, for example, the subject of communism needs requires articles on, say, Israeli communism, Marxist communism, and everyone's version of it. I suspect if one were to go to any widely-recognized encyclopedia in the English speaking world, you will find one entry for libertarianism and no entries for capitalist libertarianism, market libertarianism, or, dare I say, socialist libertarianism (as opposed to socialism). To the extent there are several species of it, the artilce should make reference to them. Anyway, that's my view, and I think that FOo and others might be making a similar point. icut4u
I agree with Nat Krause. A Wikipedia article should be about one thing. The prevailing meaning of "anarchism" as far as I have seen it used is anarcho-socialism or anti-capitalist anarchism. If that is the case throughout English, then the article should be about anarcho-socialism, with a disambiguation note at the top to anarcho-capitalism. However, unlike the term "anarcho-capitalism", the term "libertarian capitalism" is not widely used (while Google searches are not a perfect measure, they are a pretty darned good one) and so does not form a useful title for an article.
I must respond to one more of Shane King's points. He asks whether "aesthetic concerns" trump Wikipedia's NPOV policy. I do not think they would. However, accuracy concerns are not merely aesthetic concerns. Neutrality means that we should strive to represent the world as it is, rather than as we may wish it to be.
It is not Wikipedia's job to tell English-speakers that they should use the word "libertarian" to mean something else than what they presently (by and large) use it to mean. The word does have a specific predominant usage (both by libertarians and non-libertarians); and it is a misuse of Wikipedia to choose article titles in an effort to promote the point of view that this predominant usage should be changed. ? FOo 22:49, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I have noticed that most of the recent edits seem to be made by anonymous people without accounts on Wikipedia. I would like to urge people to create accounts and therefore properly identify themselves if participating in any controversy or frequent editing. Chameleon 13:25, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)
There is such ambiguity here that it seems totally inappropriate for one version of libertarianism to occupy one page and another to be classified differently. For neutrality's sake, I think a disambiguation page is necessary here. ReithySockPuppet 21:06, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Contrary to what the most recent revision states, none of the major libertarian theorist of the English-speaking variety (Hospers, Nozick, Hayek, Mises, etc.) uses the descriptor "libertarian capitalism." It is false to say that this is the common understanding or usage among libertarians. For what seems like the 100th time, not all libertarian theorists base their views on economic grounds. Indeed, the principal libertarian theorists of the last fifty years, other than Friedman (Mises and Hayek wrote their seminal works prior to fifty years ago), base their views on moral grounds....stating that it is morally wrong to take someone's fairly acquired property, notwithstanding someone else's end-state theory. One can argue all day long as to whether or not this is the correct view, but this is what they, the libertarians, believe.
Libertarians believe people ought to be left alone as much as possible. That is the essence of negative rights, which was mischaracterized in several previous posts. This position is not a mere linguistic trick. The fact that this allows for free exchange (or relatively free, for few libertarians believe in absolute property rights), disposing of one's property as one sees fit, is what makes the theory compatible with capitalist acts. The latter does not justify the former. It is simply wrong to make out libertarianism to be primarily or solely an economic position. Many libertarain theorists in the English-speaking world believe that it is primarily a matter of moral rights, notwithstanding the economic consequences.
I do not understand why those who find the libertarian position to be disagreeable cannot nevertheless allow it to be defined as its principal proponents would describe it, as opposed to introducing new usage in order to make sometimes subtle and sometimes not so subtle editorial points about their position. That belongs in a critical analysis, not in an objective exposition of the position. I fear that this subject arouses too many passions to ever be accurately described, for long, in this kind of a forum icut4u
I think the current libertarianism article is frought with difficulty. For one thing, it is about anti-libertariansim as much as it is about libertariainsm. For another, there is considerable redundancy, some of which is avoidable. And, it does not explicate several important issues critical to libertarian thought. It is obviously controversial, so I thought a new attempt with several qualifications in defining libertarian philosophy might be in order. I tried to capture all of the important links and major ideas, but did not include the Nolan Chart, though I addressed it, and I certainly would not object to its inclusion. In any event, I offer it for your consideration, improvement (which it certainly needs), and rejection/deletion. The new article is entitled Libertarian theory. I have no objection if most of those who frequent this page simply want to can it, and I won't try to preserve it. icut4u 00:34, 31 Oct 2004 (UTC)
User:172.190.144.30 is now reverting the page under the edit summary "the libertarianism described in this article is found in America only and that should be noted" (sic). This seems to be remarkably, amazingly false, as evidenced by parties calling themselves "Libertarian" or a cognate in (at least) Argentina, Australia, Canada, Costa Rica, the Netherlands, New Zealand, and Portugal. [7]
Perhaps the Libertarian Party of Ontario doesn't like being called American. And the Libertarian International Organization seems to have lots of links to non-US libertarian movements under that very name. The International Society for Individual Liberty says even them French dudes got libertarians ? and they don't mean libertarian socialists here at least. ? FOo 05:26, 2 Nov 2004 (UTC)
As I said in the edit sumarries: Paris is not a disambig page, Because of how much more Paris, France is in that term then Paris, Texas.
Libertarniasm socalism is a qualifer on top of Libertarianism. Libertarianism is the default term meaning what the page says it means, Liberarian socalism is a different thing compleatly, and is a qualifer on top it, Much like geoliberatism . NOBODY uses libertarian capatalism besides the 600 pages on google that are opponets of libertarianism.
Look! neither of these terms exist... I don't understand where this movement in wikipedia is coming from, that thinks we should go and make up words, just to make the English language more "fair". 600 googles for Libertarain Capatalism, about the same about for market libertarniasm. Whereas Libertarian Socalism has 11,000. It's obvious here That the word as it's defined means what it means, What is your people's problem? stop trying to 1984 words. Chuck F 12:33, 3 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I'm not sure I understand your stance on this: are you for the exclusively "free market" definition of libertarian or are you calling for a more open definition? Please calm down and explain your arguments. -- Axon 12:46, 3 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I'm for the exclusive free market definition. Libertariasm as the base defininaton right now means The free market definition. Libertarian socalism(it's libertariansm with a qualifer on top) is a different word, therefore has a different definitation and is why people use that.
The guy just posted above all the liberatian parties in different countries... THe only way you can find people that use the term differntly is people in countries that USE A DIFFERENT TERM, but they like it translated as libertarian. Come on. Calling it capatalist Libertarian is just ridiclous, Nobody use that term, Google seriously has as many results for commie democract as they do for capatalist libertarian, that doesn't mean we are redirecting democracy to commie democract or something similar to that Chuck F 14:20, 3 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Michael Badnarik said: "RIGHTS AND PRIVILEGES ARE POLAR OPPOSITES. A RIGHT IS SOMETHING THAT I CAN DO WITHOUT ASKING. A PRIVILEGE IS SOMETHING THAT A HIGHER AUTHORITY ALLOWS ME TO DO. IT IS UTTER NONSENSE FOR US TO ACCEPT GOVERNMENT PERMITS IN ORDER TO EXERCISE AN INALIENABLE RIGHT." -[Project Vote Smart] [8]
At least with regard to the US Libertarian Party-- Perhaps the argument on the use of the word "rights" in the article could center more toward this quote, since the paragraph in context is suppose to show what "Libertarians believe".
I agree. He is one example of a libertarian politician, but not a particularly good libertarian theorist. I should be no more inclined to quote him than, say, George Bush or John Kerry on federalism or democracy, notwithstanding the fact both of them are presumably examples of people who believe in both of these ideas. Besides, as you point out, it is not a well-constructed point icut4u 16:45, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Why has the link to libertarian socialism been deleted from the introduction?
Far be it from me to intrude on this nasty little edit war that has locked the page, but someone might want to fix a broken link one of these days. "Revisiting Anarchism and Government by Tibor R. Machan." is no more. http://www.liberalia.com/htm/tm_minarchists_anarchists.htm times out. -- Branden 01:48, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I found a wonderful essay on libertarianism, at http://sethf.com/essays/major/libstupid.php and would like to see it added to the external links section. thanks.
From the head of the article:
This article deals with the major usage of the word libertarianism. For the use of the term "libertarianism" in the philosophy of free will see libertarianism (philosophy).
"Libertarian" and "libertarianism" are also used to refer to liberty in a general way. For example, someone arguing for civil liberties may be known as a "civil libertarian", regardless of their exact political allegiances.
add the new line:
"Libertarian" and "libertarianism" are also used to refer to anarchists who oppose private property or who support workers control, particularly outside of North America. This politics is more fully explored at Libertarian socialism.
Which should make the disambig clearer than the later line in the body of the article.
No because that's wrong Chuck F 03:40, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)
This is the correct disambiguation, NPOV and factually correct the result of consensus building over a long period (the version that has been protected is a vandalised version):
This article deals with the capitalist version of libertarianism as it is principally understood in the United States and often associated with anarcho-capitalism. For a discussion of the meaning of the term libertarian that is traditional in Europe, see libertarian socialism. It is noted that there are many interpretations of the philosophy in different nations.
For the use of the term "libertarianism" in the philosophy of free will see libertarianism (philosophy).
"Libertarian" and "libertarianism" are also used to refer to liberty in a general way. For example, someone arguing for civil liberties may be known as a "civil libertarian", regardless of their exact political allegiances.
Wtf are you talking about, the result of concenus building over a long time was this
"For a discussion of the meaning of the term libertarian that is traditional in Europe, see libertarian socialism."
not your verison... at least don't lie Chuck F 15:49, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Perhaps someone (wiser than me) could write a bit about the relationship between libertarianism and conservativism (or, more rightly, libertarians and conservatives)? It's relevant to the topic, and a complex and interesting issue.
You all are invited to visit and comment on a draft for a RfC on this and related articles that will eventually likely become a poll. Please remember we are not discussing the topic itself, just the suitable neutral number of issues we want to cover. -- Improv 17:12, 4 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Ayn Rand is NOT a Libertarian; she makes that point quite clearly. Visit the Ayn Rand Institute website for her Q & A about Libertarians:
http://www.aynrand.org/site/PageServer?pagename=education_campus_libertarians
Please remove her name from the list; she is an Objectivist.
Well, one thing is certain, it makes much more sense to have her on the list than Bill O'Reilly or Bill Mahr, both of whom have appeared on the list at one time or another, and neither of whom are remotely libertarian in their outlook (libertine, conservative, statist, authoritarian, leftist, rightest...perhaps... but certainly not libertarian!). I continue to think Rand would have been very uncomfortable with the appellation, however. Still, many who would consider themselves libertarians (for example, David Boaz, who includes her in his anthology of libertarain authors) have been greatly influenced by her, so it is certainly not an indefensible position. icut4u
I like your suggestion, FOo, especially using the heading "Authors who have influenced libertarianism." This would allow one to include authors and theorists who were clearly influential, but who could not be called libertarian, or who would themselves reject the characterization, as Rand did. The main heading would have to be altered, too; perhaps to something such as "Influential people and adherents." icut4u
The Playboy interview is in it, over which she had no copyright. Read the remarks by the editor and you will observe that her heirs would not allow her works to be included. icut4u
Why was Bill O'reilly deleted? He is very obviously a libertarian. If you think it isn't factual I've seen much bigger bullshit on this dog and pony encyclopedia.
No, not really. In a transcript of one of his broadcasts he suggests that only usage in one's home should be permitted, and in another, he says it only ought to be allowed for medical use, apparently out of sympathy for his friend, Montel Williams. He was very uncharitable to the libertarian guest who advocated decriminalization of drugs. Of course, O'Reilly is notoriously inconsistent. icut4u
I've seen several interviews with Bill Maher where he has claimed to be a Libertarian (most recently on Hannity and Colmes about 3 months ago). Can he be added to the list?
24.166.8.125 21:43, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Hi, as part of the Wiki Syntax project we'd like to make a very minor correction at the start of this article, on this line:
''This article deals with the '''libertarianism''' as defined in [[America]] and several other nations. For a discussion of the meaning of the term '''libertarian''' that is traditional in Europe, see [[libertarian socialism]].
Can we please get a '' added to the end of that line, thus closing the wiki italics quotes? All the best, -- Nickj 04:49, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Please read the Wikipedia entry on "Liberal". Are we meekly going to allow our name to be taken by the statists again?
I'd like to propose that David Brin be added to the Libertarian list of Media personalities.
His writings definitely have a Classical Liberal spin to them. His book the Transparent Society should be familar to many of you.
1) Anarcho-capitalism is a statist ideology. What do you think Rothbard's "defense associations" are? How else will business owners protect their property interests without a state? Inherint in a state is some sort of political hierchy and unequal political power relations, WHICH IS IN THE VERY NATURE OF CAPITALIST RELATIONS BETWEEN WORKERS AND BOSSES.
2) You are NOT classical liberals. A liberal conception of human nature neccessitates a mistrust of concentrated political power, since such power is inherintly authoritarian in nature. The classical liberal thinkers warned against two types of centralized political power- CORPORATE power & businessmen, and GOVERNMENTAL POWER & political rulers. The true heirs of classical liberalism are progressives such as Dennis Kucinich or Ralph Nader, NOT right-wing libertarianism.
3) Classical liberals never warned against socialism. In fact, for almost a CENTURY socialism was the heir of the liberal tradition, from the early 1800's until von Mises and his propogandists came along and tried re-defining what "liberal" and "libertarian" meant.
4) Right-wing libertarians are just APOLIGISTS for corporate capitalism, and SHILLS FOR THE RULING CLASS, and thus the state. Your ideology is FAR from being genuinely libertarian, even if you wish to call it "libertarian." It is about as libertarian as southern slave holders who wished for the federal government to leave them alone.
5) I am sick of you people, your lies, manipulation, and "collectivist" baiting. Your ideology needs to be properly labelled for what it is: RIGHT-WING LIBERTARIANISM. Not "Libertarian" (a libertarian is a type of socialist) or "Libertarianism" (opposition to central political power) You are right-wing libertarians. Period. If you don't agree, then you can go argue with some REAL libertarians- www.infoshop.org
Property and the Market
Liberal political theory, then, fractures over the conception of liberty. But a more important division concerns the place of private property and the market order. For classical liberals liberty and private property are intimately related. From the eighteenth century right up to today, classical liberals have insisted that an economic system based on private property is uniquely consistent with individual liberty, allowing each to live her life — including employing her labour and her capital — as she sees fit. Indeed, classical liberals and libertarians have often asserted that in some way liberty and property are really the same thing; it has been argued, for example, that all rights, including liberty rights, are forms of property; others have maintained that property is itself a form of freedom (Gaus, 1994a; Steiner, 1994). A market order based on private property is thus seen an embodiment of freedom (Robbins, 1961: 104). Unless people are free to make contracts and to sell their labour, or unless they are free to save their incomes and then invest them as they see fit, or unless they are free to run enterprises when they have obtained the capital, they are not really free.
Classical liberals employ a second argument connecting liberty and private property. Rather than insisting that the freedom to obtain and employ private property is simply one aspect of people's liberty, this second argument insists that private property is the only effective means for the protection of liberty. Here the idea is that the dispersion of power that results from a free market economy based on private property protects the liberty of subjects against encroachments by the state. As F.A. Hayek argues, ‘There can be no freedom of press if the instruments of printing are under government control, no freedom of assembly if the needed rooms are so controlled, no freedom of movement if the means of transport are a government monopoly’ (1978: 149). http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/liberalism/-- Stratofortress 20:00, 20 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I would have to agree that the kind of lbertarianism described in this article is right-wing lbertarianism.
However, AFAIK left-wing libertarians mostly don't call themselves libertarians any more. They simply call themselves anarchists.
IMHO the article should state that the kind of libertarianism defined here is right-wing and has nothing to do with socialism.
It's an oxymoron, communist believe in an absense of economic freedom, and usually the absense of personal freedom. Libertarians believe in both economic and personal freedom. Now personally, I believe a libertarian government would lead to a take over by a communist government in the form of a massive corporation. Think of it this way, without laws restricting trusts, eventually one corporation will have bought or out competed every other corporation out there. This corporation would run your mail, the military's weapons, you would work for them and therefore have to abide by their rules. The corporation would own your housing and make rules regarding what you can and cannot do in your home, just as any landlord can. In essence, a libertarian government would turn into a communistic one.
Wikipedia isn't a place where to discuss whether libertarianism works or not.-- 80.235.62.100 12:27, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I edited Classical Liberalism and Libertarianism on a few minor points. Firstly Classical Liberalism is not used as a synonym for Libertarianism outside the US. Secondly "neo-classical Liberalism" is another name for neo-liberalism, not Libertarianism. Thirdly the conclusion was not NPOV, it just swept aside the criticisms and said that they were essentially the same. And lastly, it tried to equate new liberalism with socialism. Slizor 13:39, 2005 Feb 14 (UTC)
I'm suspicious of the stuff about utilitarian libertarians. If they exist at all, they're certainly not influential. Can anyone verify the stuff in the article? Or should it be removed? Or should there be a caveat that says that they're in the minority? Dave 04:59, Mar 14, 2005 (UTC)
All right. I think " consequentialist" might be better than "utilitarian," but I'll buy that. Dave
According to the relevant Wikipedia entries,
The consequentialist libertarians icut4you mentioned are pretty clearly in the first camp, so I changed the article. Hopefully everyone will agree this is an improvement. If not, we can discuss. Dave 05:46, Mar 14, 2005 (UTC)
I've been looking through it (and heavily modifying it) and the warning seems unwarranted to me. It looks like most of the reasonable complaints of people on the talk page have been addressed. Can we take down the big red sign? I want to make this a featured article soon. Dave 06:24, Mar 14, 2005 (UTC)
Dave 20:38, Mar 14, 2005 (UTC)
I went through the first hundred hits in google for “libertarian.” Here are the first 20 hits with the reason they fit my definition (except for Libertarian rock, which I think is civil-libertarian):
…..
After the first 20, I stopped listing ones that support my position, and just looked for exceptions. I couldn’t find anything “socialist” at all until hit #29 (nazi.org). Until then, everything fits my definition except possibly the “libertarian rock” site above. The next site that wasn’t libertarian was #45, and it was ‘’about’’ libertarianism, as I’ve defined it. #54 is Wikipedia’s “Libertarian Socialism” article. #68 is the same as 45. At hit #79, we get a the second site that uses libertarianism in a way other than the article. And they always qualify the term with something like “people’s libertarian” or “left-libertarian” or “libertarian communism.” Hit # 96 is the same as 79.
So really, in the first hundred hits on google, we have ‘’zero’’ sites that use “libertarian” without a qualifier to mean “libertarian socialism” except for Nazi.org. I think we should all agree that the definition the article currently uses is the most common and move on to the article itself. I think it's time to take the big red sign down. If anyone can come up with a reason that the top 100 sites on Google are wrong, they can put it back up. Dave 23:38, Mar 14, 2005 (UTC)
It looks like it's settled, then. Thank God. Dave 02:18, Mar 15, 2005 (UTC)
Makes sense. I'd think libertarian socialists would be more unlikely to be able to afford a computer (especially given that they think getting a job is exploitation). And, they may not even want a computer, since capitalists produced them. RJII 04:16, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Anyone who still thinks that this definition is not the most common is welcome to find a book that uses "libertarian" in a different way without a qualifier like "left libertarian" or "people's libertarian" or "libertarian communism." Presumably if the people who use the term differently neither write books nor use the web, they are less important and widespread than libertarians as defined here. Until you come up with evidence that anyone other than the "libertarian green nazi party" described above uses libertarianism your way, I think the presumption should be with the 99 websites I point to above. Dave 19:28, Mar 19, 2005 (UTC)
I reverted some of RJIII's recent mass changes to the article because it seemed to me that they were inserting spit words and propogandising. One example is referring to Europe diminutively as "Old Europe". Please take a look over his recent edits to the page. -- Improv 23:17, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I've been very impressed with RJII's work on this page. When I have time (probably not for about a week) I'll do some more work on it myself. I just did a comparison between the current version of the article and what it was last sunday when I first saw it; it's a huge difference. Dave 03:21, Mar 18, 2005 (UTC)
WTF? It is a known fact that the paris commune was brutally attacked by governmental forces. Describing this as "crushed" was just fine, but then changing it to collapse was ridiculous. Like it just fell apart on its own or something. And that is exactly how you are describing it, whoops, it fell! No, it was suppressed: (www.m-w.com) : to put down by authority or force : SUBDUE. Kev 20:55, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Whatever. Cities fall when sieges succeed. If you feel that strongly about it, you can keep it as "suppressed" but I'll add "by the French governmen" to make it clear what's going on. Dave 21:48, Mar 19, 2005 (UTC)
I'd like your help writing an "anarchist criticism" in the criticisms section. It seems like your domain. If you could write something up (preferably with lots of sources) that would be great. Thanks in advance, Dave 19:36, Mar 20, 2005 (UTC)
I have a problem with the IRS definition being in the Intro. First of all, I don't think it's a good definition. For example, "harm others"? That's too vague. Secondly, why is the Internal Revenue Service given any credibility there when the IRS represents everything libertarians are against? Who cares what the IRS says? Putting them there in the intro as an authority on libertarianism is beyond bizarre. RJII 03:08, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I think the weakest points of this article are history, statism, capitalism, and rights (which are some of the most important areas). Let's try to get this at least as good as the anarcho-capitalist article. Dave 04:04, Mar 21, 2005 (UTC)
I removed a bunch of publications I thought weren't useful enough for links. I was probably overzealous, so if anyone wants to put some back, that's cool. Here's the original list: [redacted linkspam] Dave 04:50, Mar 25, 2005 (UTC)
"Libertarians see this decentralized authority as less dangerous than any centralized, monopoly authority that uses force. Libertarians contend that government power will inevitably act against the interests of most of society, notwithstanding the original good intentions."
The problem with this statement is not that it isn't true, it is. The problem is that it is being used to compared the libertarian position with Chomsky, and that makes it nothing more than a straw-man, since this is not the position he holds. Kev 07:08, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Should the article include long lists of libertarians? I don't want to delete 134.68.43.148's work without discussing it first. Dave 20:48, Mar 28, 2005 (UTC)
I put the cleanup template on the Individualism, property.... section (currently section 3. It and the "statism" section (3.2) are the weakest parts of the article, but I'm not sure how to fix them (possibly spinning off into new sections, definitely shortening them). I was hoping for some help, and I thought directing your attention there would be useful. Dave 04:44, Mar 30, 2005 (UTC)
Trying to figure out how to work on this section. Statism is commonly defined as centralized governmental control over an economy. For example Merriam-Webster defines it as " concentration of economic controls and planning in the hands of a highly centralized government." But apparently some people take it to include government control over civil liberties. I'm not aware of this is being correct usage --if it is, it's not as widely used in that way. I tried before to get this section to focus only on economic issues, but some people apparently like to include civil liberties issues as well. I suggest it sticks to the typical definition of statism. What does everyone else think? RJII 06:02, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC) Now that I think about it, the anti-statism section should be integrated with the Libertarian Economic Views section. RJII 14:01, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)