This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion:
You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 18:51, 13 November 2022 (UTC)
Not sure what to make of it, but there are a lot of edits moving the topic from "liberation" to "withdrawal." I think the former is about the freeing of the people, and also the political dimension of that. The latter has more to do with military developments. My gut is that from a topic standpoint, the withdrawal material is more appropriate to the 2022 Ukrainian southern counteroffensive. Adoring nanny ( talk) 22:09, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
Deletion:
Keep - 8
Delete - 3
Rename - 2
Renaming:
Liberation - 4
Withdrawal - 2
DinoSoupCanada (
talk) 23:21, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
Russian withdrawal from Khersonany less legitimate.
'nobody cares about' what millions of (pro-)Russians think, so we can ignore their point(s) of view, I actually specifically said "alleged millions of people (Russophiles)". The word "alleged" is key here, because I believe that the population of pro-Ukrainians around the world is far higher than the population of pro-Russians. The population of pro-Russians is certainly still in the millions, considering that Russia has a population well into the millions, and there's probably many millions more outside of Russia. Nonetheless, whatever the population of pro-Russians is, the population of pro-Ukrainians is probably at least five times that number. Jargo Nautilus ( talk) 15:10, 17 November 2022 (UTC)
What even is this?
— Michael Z. 21:36, 13 November 2022 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: No Consensus. As I parsed through the discussion, I find my summary is similiar to
Special:Diff/1121570713 on 13 November 2022. The discussion that's between 13 November and when this dicussion is closed does not differ much from the summary. Both sides argued that either titles are NPOV and POV at the same time, and may be biased towards either parties. Both sides also argued that either titles are COMMONNAME. @NL, in their support vote, raised that the GHits is 92,600 (liberation) vs 94,300 (withdrawal) thus a rough indication that the withdrawal is more common. However, together with the list of news articles at the end of the discussion with what both parties try to build to indicate support their arguments, I find that both can be used interchangeably and are understable by everyone to be referring to the same series of events that happened in the area. Thus, I find that there is no one COMMONNAME at the moment. Even though there are 7 oppose (including 1 split that leans to oppose) and 4 support votes, excluding that 1 support and 2 oppose votes struck out for
WP:GS/RUSUKR, I look at the arguments (per
WP:NOTAVOTE) and conclude that both sides have valid and near equal points. Thus, I key this in as No consensus. As the war is still ongoing and every so fluid, how the world perceives and writes about this flashpoint in history may change. In time, a common name for this topic may emerge. As with
WP:NOCON, the article is to remain as where it is currently titled (not because of WP:OWN or RIGHTGREATWRONGS as motioned by the supporting voices)}). I urge that editors to open a new RM discussion only at least after three months, when hopefully there is an emerging consensus that either title or any other title is the common name or that there is circumstances that warrant a more immediate change in the title (i.e. stablising the content and/or resolve the various points of content disputes that has been raised in here and elsewhere on the talk page). (see
WP:THREEOUTCOMES: Successful move re-requests generally, though not always, take place at least three months after the previous one. An exception is when the no-consensus move discussion suggests a clear, new course of action.
).
– robertsky (
talk) 04:20, 24 November 2022 (UTC)
Liberation of Kherson →
Russian withdrawal from Kherson
Should we keep the current name, or rename it to Russian withdrawal from Kherson
?
DinoSoupCanada (
talk) 17:11, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
Russian withdrawal from Khersonis a more accurate and NPOV description of the events, complying with WP:NDESC, WP:MILNAME and other relevant policies. Secondly, a Google search for "Liberation of Kherson" results 92,600 hits, while "Russian withdrawal from Kherson" has 94,300 hits, giving a rough indication that the latter should be the title per WP:COMMONNAME.
Liberation of Khersonis acceptable to be mentioned as an alternative name, e.g. in the opening sentence of the article, in the infobox, and perhaps elsewhere in the article if relevant and appropriate; but generally speaking, non-neutral terms such as 'liberation' should be avoided. Nederlandse Leeuw ( talk) 18:08, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
the latter is what RS seem to be doingI don't think so. I send the two (so as not to spend a lot of time into this) first articles that show to me on Google when searching "Liberation of Kherson": [4] and [5]. If you read them, you will see both of these articles are clearly city-focused. Distinctions are made between Kherson city and the whole liberated area. The same happens with "Russian withdrawal of Kherson": [6] and [7]. The first is still clearly city-focused while the second doesn't clarify if it means the city or the whole area with Kherson. Though, it is not surprising, as most people would assume it means the city. Evidence will have to be provided to prove that Kherson is used as a general name for the whole right-bank area. Super Ψ Dro 08:29, 13 November 2022 (UTC)
the word 'liberation' or a derivative thereof. But the same goes for 'withdrawal', withdrew, withdrawn, withdrawing, withdraw, retreat, retreated, etc. so I don't think that argument really helps either side. Nederlandse Leeuw ( talk) 19:24, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
Russian withdrawal from Khersonis an NPOV title, and
Liberation of Khersoncould be considered a POV title. As WP:NDESC states, WP:POVNAMEs are allowed if they are the WP:COMMONNAME, but as these two names are both about equally attested in RS (although my list is currently a lot longer than yours, but these lists aren't necessarily representative of all RS yet), we should favour the non-POV name.
liberation of Khersonis an NPOV name would be by falsification. That is, if generally pro-Russian but reliable sources frequently used the term, it could be considered 'neutral'. Per WP:RSP, the Kommersant seems to be a good candidate for that, as it is widely considered an RS openly publishing news articles about Ukraine. So far, I haven't seen them use
liberation of Kherson, but they do say, for example today: "The Crimean authorities will review the measures necessary to ensure the safety of citizens and infrastructure after the
withdrawal of the Russian group from the right-bank part of the Kherson region, said Chairman of the State Council of Crimea Vladimir Konstantinov." The Komsomolskaya Pravda is widely considered a pro-Kremlin newspaper, but it is taken seriously by some Western media, at least to see what they are saying (e.g. CNN quoted a Komsomolskaya Pravda journalist as saying that it was the Russians who blew up the Antonovskiy Bridge; probably not something the Kremlin would like to hear.) Whenever the term
liberation of Khersonis used on the website of KP, however, it is either in reference to the Soviet conquest of Kherson in 1944, or the phrase is used in a mocking way or between quotation marks: the "liberation" of Kherson or the "liberation of Kherson"; otherwise, the word "liberated" is used in reference to territories of Ukraine currently controlled by the Russian forces, such as Melitopol in southern Zaporizhzhia. Clearly, they see things the other way (personally I think they're wrong, but my personal opinion doesn't matter because of WP:NPOV). I don't know how seriously we need to take the Komsomolskaya Pravda, but at least the Kommersant (which doesn't use
liberation of Kherson, but does use
Russian withdrawal from Kherson) is considered an RS, and to really demonstrate that the name
liberation of Khersonis NPOV, this is the kind of tests that we should conduct. Nederlandse Leeuw ( talk) 16:59, 14 November 2022 (UTC)
liberation of Khersonfor the events of November 2022 in a non-mocking, unironic manner? It would be the easiest way to prove
liberation of Khersonis an NPOV name.
Russian withdrawal from Khersonis an NPOV name in their argument that the article should be renamed have the burden of proof to show all reliable sources, no matter which side they are on, commonly use it. I have done that above with respect to pro-Russian sources, and also below under 'sourcing' for neutral or pro-Ukrainian(-leaning) sources. In all these sources, I found only one which slightly mocked the name by prefacing it with "so-called". Nobody else challenges the term as inaccurate; although many say it was a very poorly organised and chaotic withdrawal, it was nevertheless a withdrawal. The term favours or disfavours no side in the conflict and is therefore NPOV.
liberation of Khersonis an NPOV name in their argument that the article should not be renamed have the burden of proof to show all reliable sources, no matter which side they are on, commonly use it. Nobody has yet proven anything about pro-Russian reliable sources to that effect. And I have given some evidence to the contrary that it is POV.
liberation of Khersonis an NPOV name with a problem: there is no way to disprove it through falsification, if all pro-Russian sources are disqualified for reasons of being non-English-language or unreliable. We can see that in pro-Russian unreliable sources (of any language), the term
liberation of Khersonis avoided or mocked, which does suggest it is a POV name, but it is unclear if we should take that into account or not.
Russian withdrawal from Khersonhowever is used without reservation by pretty much all sources in all languages of all degrees of reliability.
withdrawal from Kherson, so clearly that's something that he is allowed to say. If you are suggesting that he would be thrown in jail if he said
liberation of Khersonbecause that would discredit the Russian Armed Forces or question Russia's territorial integrity, then that proves my point that
liberation of Khersonis a pro-Ukrainian POV name that differs from how the Russian government sees things. Nederlandse Leeuw ( talk) 12:22, 17 November 2022 (UTC)
Ukrainianand
Russianshould suffice for indicating the who without Wikipedia taking a side as to who the 'good guys' or the 'bad guys' supposedly are. There is nothing in the words
Russian withdrawal fromthat somehow indicates the Russians are either the 'good guys' or 'bad guys', but
liberation of Khersonpretty clearly implies the Ukrainians are the 'good guys'. (Theoretically, I think
Ukrainian recapture of Khersonwould also be fine as a title, but that only gets about 1,480 results in Google, so it would fail WP:COMMONNAME). Whether the focus of the article should be on the withdrawal or the recapture is a legitimate but separate question from whether 'liberation' is POV; it evidently is. Nederlandse Leeuw ( talk) 16:10, 17 November 2022 (UTC)
Here are some sources. Anyone should feel free to add to the list. I also searched some in other European languages. If anything, it seemed like the use of terms corresponding to "liberation" was greater there than in English-language press.
No water, power or internet – only euphoria in newly liberated Kherson[10]
Kherson, the only Ukrainian provincial capital captured by Russia, has been liberated.[11]
They poured onto the streets of Kherson early Saturday, hugging police officers and waving the blue-and-yellow Ukrainian flag to celebrate the city's second day of liberation.
‘They ran away like goats’: villagers celebrate liberation in Kherson region[12]
Ukrainian forces swept into the southern city of Kherson today, dealing a major blow to Moscow's war effort. The liberation came after Russia completed its retreat from the region.[13]
Ukrainian officials have warned "the war is not over" after Russia's withdrawal from Kherson, even as celebrations continue over the weekend., but also
"We always believed that we would liberate Kherson," he told . . .[14]
After months of Russian occupation, residents said the moment recalled being liberated from the Nazis in World War II.[15]
The liberation of Kherson city fueled speculation about how much farther Ukraine's military might advance before winter.[16]
People In Kherson Dance Around A Fire To Celebrate Ukrainian Forces Entering The City[17]
Liberation of Kherson sparks outpouring of joy and tears in Kyiv[18], also
"My city, where I was born and where I've lived my whole life, is finally free," said 17-year-old Nastia Stepenska, her eyes welling with tears.
“Hace nueve meses que espero este momento”: la gente en Kiev celebra emocionada la liberación de Jersón
Los ucranianos festejan la liberación de Jersón en las calles de la ciudad
https://www.lefigaro.fr/international/scenes-de-liesse-a-kherson-ou-la-foule-a-accueilli-en-triomphe-les-premiers-soldats-ukrainiens-20221112[19] ("liesse" means "jubilation")
Warum Ukrainer jetzt Wassermelonen-Bilder teilen
Die Region um Cherson ist bekannt für besonders köstliche Wassermelonen doch die waren in der letzten Saison in die Hände der russischen Besatzer gefallen. Nun wird das Obst zum Symbol der wiedergewonnenen Freiheit.("widergewonnen Freiheit" means "re-won freedom").
Cherson nach der Rückeroberungbut also
damit die Bewohner der befreiten Gebiete wieder zuverlässige Informationen über den Verlauf der Militäroperationen erhielten-- effectively supporting both titles
"Трогательная и радостная встреча: воины ССО Украины в освобожденном Херсоне.("освобожденном" means "liberated")
Il ritiro da Cherson conferma il fallimento della strategia russa[20] ("ritiro" means "withdrawal")
Chersoń wolny! Rosjanie wycofali się za Dniepr[oko.press] ("wolny" means "free") (yeah, and "Rosjanie wycofali się za Dniepr" means "Russians withdrew beyond the Dnipro River")
Adoring nanny ( talk) 18:21, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
The Russian withdrawal from Kherson will free up the forces of both sides to engage in combat elsewhere, Ukrainian Defense Minister Olekisy Reznikov said in an interview with the Reuters news agency published on Friday, Nov. 11.
...before there was solid evidence of the beginnings of a complete Russian withdrawal from Kherson.
Russian withdrawal from Kherson city will take one week, Ukraine says
The United States has encouraged Ukraine to use the Russian withdrawal from Kherson as a springboard to restart negotiations with Moscow as world leaders meet for G20 talks next week.
Ukraine presidential adviser: Too soon to talk of Russian withdrawal from Kherson
None of this suggests an imminent Russian withdrawal from Kherson.
UK Defence Secretary Ben Wallace has been speaking in Edinburgh about the Russian withdrawal from Kherson.
Russian withdrawal from Kherson to take at least a week, Ukraine defence minister says
The president also said Russia's withdrawal from Kherson is evidence of "some real problems with the Russian military."
Ukrainian forces cautiously advance after Russian withdrawal from Kherson
Russian withdrawal from Kherson will be challenging, UK says
Russia's withdrawal from Kherson 'brings significant reputational damage', MoD says
We start with some comments on Russia's withdrawal from Kherson by General Sir Richard Shirreff, the former NATO deputy supreme allied commander.
That said, US Army Gen. Mark Milley, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, said on Thursday that "we're seeing the beginnings" of the Russian withdrawal from Kherson.
Український журналіст Андрій Цаплієнко звернув увагу, що заяви Суровікіна, Сальдо та Стремоусова збіглися з хвилею натяків на нібито відступ із Херсона у російських провоєнних каналах. "Ukrainian journalist Andriy Tsaplienko drew attention to the fact that the statements of Surovikin, Saldo and Stremousov coincided with a wave of hints about the alleged retreat from Kherson in Russian pro-war channels." Однак поки неясно, чи натякав Суровікін — безжальний генерал і нинішній керівник військовими діями (армії РФ, – Ред.) — на майбутній відхід росіян з Херсона, або ж на нову серію ударів з повітря. "However, it is not yet clear whether Surovikin — a ruthless general and the current head of military operations (of the Russian army, Ed .) — hinted at the future withdrawal of the Russians from Kherson, or at a new series of airstrikes."
According to the Institute for the Study of War (ISW), the priority for the Russian troops in the Kherson area now is the organised withdrawal of their forces across the Dnipro and the delay of the Armed Forces of Ukraine, rather than trying to completely stop the Ukrainian counteroffensive.
De aangekondigde Russische terugtrekking uit Cherson is een grote opsteker voor Oekraïne en een blamage voor Rusland.
La retraite russe de Kherson, quelle que soit sa finalité stratégique réelle, n'en finit pas de susciter des réactions en Russie.
Während sich die Blicke auf den russischen Rückzug aus Cherson richten, dauern die heftigen Kämpfe in anderen Regionen an
Welche Folgen der Rückzug Russlands aus Cherson hat, lesen Sie in dieser Militäranalyse:
I did a Google search just now on "Kherson". I did not search on "liberation" or "withdrawal". These were the top hits:
Former detainees in liberated Kherson allege Russian brutality, torture under occupation[21]
Photos: Liberated Kherson celebrates as Ukrainians prepare for an uncertain future[22]
Russian Military Dismisses ‘Fake’ Soldiers’ Complaint of Chaotic Kherson Retreat[23]
Kherson's newly liberated residents wonder: Who collaborated with the Russians?[24]
I am not going to copy more hits. But if one scrolls down, the trend continues -- there is some reference to "withdrawal". But there is more to "Liberation". Adoring nanny ( talk) 11:13, 18 November 2022 (UTC) Adoring nanny ( talk) 11:13, 18 November 2022 (UTC)
This
edit request to
Liberation of Kherson has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Add this image into aftermath section. It's Kherson on November 19th, 8 days after liberation.
DinoSoupCanada ( talk) 21:28, 24 November 2022 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion:
You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 18:51, 13 November 2022 (UTC)
Not sure what to make of it, but there are a lot of edits moving the topic from "liberation" to "withdrawal." I think the former is about the freeing of the people, and also the political dimension of that. The latter has more to do with military developments. My gut is that from a topic standpoint, the withdrawal material is more appropriate to the 2022 Ukrainian southern counteroffensive. Adoring nanny ( talk) 22:09, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
Deletion:
Keep - 8
Delete - 3
Rename - 2
Renaming:
Liberation - 4
Withdrawal - 2
DinoSoupCanada (
talk) 23:21, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
Russian withdrawal from Khersonany less legitimate.
'nobody cares about' what millions of (pro-)Russians think, so we can ignore their point(s) of view, I actually specifically said "alleged millions of people (Russophiles)". The word "alleged" is key here, because I believe that the population of pro-Ukrainians around the world is far higher than the population of pro-Russians. The population of pro-Russians is certainly still in the millions, considering that Russia has a population well into the millions, and there's probably many millions more outside of Russia. Nonetheless, whatever the population of pro-Russians is, the population of pro-Ukrainians is probably at least five times that number. Jargo Nautilus ( talk) 15:10, 17 November 2022 (UTC)
What even is this?
— Michael Z. 21:36, 13 November 2022 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: No Consensus. As I parsed through the discussion, I find my summary is similiar to
Special:Diff/1121570713 on 13 November 2022. The discussion that's between 13 November and when this dicussion is closed does not differ much from the summary. Both sides argued that either titles are NPOV and POV at the same time, and may be biased towards either parties. Both sides also argued that either titles are COMMONNAME. @NL, in their support vote, raised that the GHits is 92,600 (liberation) vs 94,300 (withdrawal) thus a rough indication that the withdrawal is more common. However, together with the list of news articles at the end of the discussion with what both parties try to build to indicate support their arguments, I find that both can be used interchangeably and are understable by everyone to be referring to the same series of events that happened in the area. Thus, I find that there is no one COMMONNAME at the moment. Even though there are 7 oppose (including 1 split that leans to oppose) and 4 support votes, excluding that 1 support and 2 oppose votes struck out for
WP:GS/RUSUKR, I look at the arguments (per
WP:NOTAVOTE) and conclude that both sides have valid and near equal points. Thus, I key this in as No consensus. As the war is still ongoing and every so fluid, how the world perceives and writes about this flashpoint in history may change. In time, a common name for this topic may emerge. As with
WP:NOCON, the article is to remain as where it is currently titled (not because of WP:OWN or RIGHTGREATWRONGS as motioned by the supporting voices)}). I urge that editors to open a new RM discussion only at least after three months, when hopefully there is an emerging consensus that either title or any other title is the common name or that there is circumstances that warrant a more immediate change in the title (i.e. stablising the content and/or resolve the various points of content disputes that has been raised in here and elsewhere on the talk page). (see
WP:THREEOUTCOMES: Successful move re-requests generally, though not always, take place at least three months after the previous one. An exception is when the no-consensus move discussion suggests a clear, new course of action.
).
– robertsky (
talk) 04:20, 24 November 2022 (UTC)
Liberation of Kherson →
Russian withdrawal from Kherson
Should we keep the current name, or rename it to Russian withdrawal from Kherson
?
DinoSoupCanada (
talk) 17:11, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
Russian withdrawal from Khersonis a more accurate and NPOV description of the events, complying with WP:NDESC, WP:MILNAME and other relevant policies. Secondly, a Google search for "Liberation of Kherson" results 92,600 hits, while "Russian withdrawal from Kherson" has 94,300 hits, giving a rough indication that the latter should be the title per WP:COMMONNAME.
Liberation of Khersonis acceptable to be mentioned as an alternative name, e.g. in the opening sentence of the article, in the infobox, and perhaps elsewhere in the article if relevant and appropriate; but generally speaking, non-neutral terms such as 'liberation' should be avoided. Nederlandse Leeuw ( talk) 18:08, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
the latter is what RS seem to be doingI don't think so. I send the two (so as not to spend a lot of time into this) first articles that show to me on Google when searching "Liberation of Kherson": [4] and [5]. If you read them, you will see both of these articles are clearly city-focused. Distinctions are made between Kherson city and the whole liberated area. The same happens with "Russian withdrawal of Kherson": [6] and [7]. The first is still clearly city-focused while the second doesn't clarify if it means the city or the whole area with Kherson. Though, it is not surprising, as most people would assume it means the city. Evidence will have to be provided to prove that Kherson is used as a general name for the whole right-bank area. Super Ψ Dro 08:29, 13 November 2022 (UTC)
the word 'liberation' or a derivative thereof. But the same goes for 'withdrawal', withdrew, withdrawn, withdrawing, withdraw, retreat, retreated, etc. so I don't think that argument really helps either side. Nederlandse Leeuw ( talk) 19:24, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
Russian withdrawal from Khersonis an NPOV title, and
Liberation of Khersoncould be considered a POV title. As WP:NDESC states, WP:POVNAMEs are allowed if they are the WP:COMMONNAME, but as these two names are both about equally attested in RS (although my list is currently a lot longer than yours, but these lists aren't necessarily representative of all RS yet), we should favour the non-POV name.
liberation of Khersonis an NPOV name would be by falsification. That is, if generally pro-Russian but reliable sources frequently used the term, it could be considered 'neutral'. Per WP:RSP, the Kommersant seems to be a good candidate for that, as it is widely considered an RS openly publishing news articles about Ukraine. So far, I haven't seen them use
liberation of Kherson, but they do say, for example today: "The Crimean authorities will review the measures necessary to ensure the safety of citizens and infrastructure after the
withdrawal of the Russian group from the right-bank part of the Kherson region, said Chairman of the State Council of Crimea Vladimir Konstantinov." The Komsomolskaya Pravda is widely considered a pro-Kremlin newspaper, but it is taken seriously by some Western media, at least to see what they are saying (e.g. CNN quoted a Komsomolskaya Pravda journalist as saying that it was the Russians who blew up the Antonovskiy Bridge; probably not something the Kremlin would like to hear.) Whenever the term
liberation of Khersonis used on the website of KP, however, it is either in reference to the Soviet conquest of Kherson in 1944, or the phrase is used in a mocking way or between quotation marks: the "liberation" of Kherson or the "liberation of Kherson"; otherwise, the word "liberated" is used in reference to territories of Ukraine currently controlled by the Russian forces, such as Melitopol in southern Zaporizhzhia. Clearly, they see things the other way (personally I think they're wrong, but my personal opinion doesn't matter because of WP:NPOV). I don't know how seriously we need to take the Komsomolskaya Pravda, but at least the Kommersant (which doesn't use
liberation of Kherson, but does use
Russian withdrawal from Kherson) is considered an RS, and to really demonstrate that the name
liberation of Khersonis NPOV, this is the kind of tests that we should conduct. Nederlandse Leeuw ( talk) 16:59, 14 November 2022 (UTC)
liberation of Khersonfor the events of November 2022 in a non-mocking, unironic manner? It would be the easiest way to prove
liberation of Khersonis an NPOV name.
Russian withdrawal from Khersonis an NPOV name in their argument that the article should be renamed have the burden of proof to show all reliable sources, no matter which side they are on, commonly use it. I have done that above with respect to pro-Russian sources, and also below under 'sourcing' for neutral or pro-Ukrainian(-leaning) sources. In all these sources, I found only one which slightly mocked the name by prefacing it with "so-called". Nobody else challenges the term as inaccurate; although many say it was a very poorly organised and chaotic withdrawal, it was nevertheless a withdrawal. The term favours or disfavours no side in the conflict and is therefore NPOV.
liberation of Khersonis an NPOV name in their argument that the article should not be renamed have the burden of proof to show all reliable sources, no matter which side they are on, commonly use it. Nobody has yet proven anything about pro-Russian reliable sources to that effect. And I have given some evidence to the contrary that it is POV.
liberation of Khersonis an NPOV name with a problem: there is no way to disprove it through falsification, if all pro-Russian sources are disqualified for reasons of being non-English-language or unreliable. We can see that in pro-Russian unreliable sources (of any language), the term
liberation of Khersonis avoided or mocked, which does suggest it is a POV name, but it is unclear if we should take that into account or not.
Russian withdrawal from Khersonhowever is used without reservation by pretty much all sources in all languages of all degrees of reliability.
withdrawal from Kherson, so clearly that's something that he is allowed to say. If you are suggesting that he would be thrown in jail if he said
liberation of Khersonbecause that would discredit the Russian Armed Forces or question Russia's territorial integrity, then that proves my point that
liberation of Khersonis a pro-Ukrainian POV name that differs from how the Russian government sees things. Nederlandse Leeuw ( talk) 12:22, 17 November 2022 (UTC)
Ukrainianand
Russianshould suffice for indicating the who without Wikipedia taking a side as to who the 'good guys' or the 'bad guys' supposedly are. There is nothing in the words
Russian withdrawal fromthat somehow indicates the Russians are either the 'good guys' or 'bad guys', but
liberation of Khersonpretty clearly implies the Ukrainians are the 'good guys'. (Theoretically, I think
Ukrainian recapture of Khersonwould also be fine as a title, but that only gets about 1,480 results in Google, so it would fail WP:COMMONNAME). Whether the focus of the article should be on the withdrawal or the recapture is a legitimate but separate question from whether 'liberation' is POV; it evidently is. Nederlandse Leeuw ( talk) 16:10, 17 November 2022 (UTC)
Here are some sources. Anyone should feel free to add to the list. I also searched some in other European languages. If anything, it seemed like the use of terms corresponding to "liberation" was greater there than in English-language press.
No water, power or internet – only euphoria in newly liberated Kherson[10]
Kherson, the only Ukrainian provincial capital captured by Russia, has been liberated.[11]
They poured onto the streets of Kherson early Saturday, hugging police officers and waving the blue-and-yellow Ukrainian flag to celebrate the city's second day of liberation.
‘They ran away like goats’: villagers celebrate liberation in Kherson region[12]
Ukrainian forces swept into the southern city of Kherson today, dealing a major blow to Moscow's war effort. The liberation came after Russia completed its retreat from the region.[13]
Ukrainian officials have warned "the war is not over" after Russia's withdrawal from Kherson, even as celebrations continue over the weekend., but also
"We always believed that we would liberate Kherson," he told . . .[14]
After months of Russian occupation, residents said the moment recalled being liberated from the Nazis in World War II.[15]
The liberation of Kherson city fueled speculation about how much farther Ukraine's military might advance before winter.[16]
People In Kherson Dance Around A Fire To Celebrate Ukrainian Forces Entering The City[17]
Liberation of Kherson sparks outpouring of joy and tears in Kyiv[18], also
"My city, where I was born and where I've lived my whole life, is finally free," said 17-year-old Nastia Stepenska, her eyes welling with tears.
“Hace nueve meses que espero este momento”: la gente en Kiev celebra emocionada la liberación de Jersón
Los ucranianos festejan la liberación de Jersón en las calles de la ciudad
https://www.lefigaro.fr/international/scenes-de-liesse-a-kherson-ou-la-foule-a-accueilli-en-triomphe-les-premiers-soldats-ukrainiens-20221112[19] ("liesse" means "jubilation")
Warum Ukrainer jetzt Wassermelonen-Bilder teilen
Die Region um Cherson ist bekannt für besonders köstliche Wassermelonen doch die waren in der letzten Saison in die Hände der russischen Besatzer gefallen. Nun wird das Obst zum Symbol der wiedergewonnenen Freiheit.("widergewonnen Freiheit" means "re-won freedom").
Cherson nach der Rückeroberungbut also
damit die Bewohner der befreiten Gebiete wieder zuverlässige Informationen über den Verlauf der Militäroperationen erhielten-- effectively supporting both titles
"Трогательная и радостная встреча: воины ССО Украины в освобожденном Херсоне.("освобожденном" means "liberated")
Il ritiro da Cherson conferma il fallimento della strategia russa[20] ("ritiro" means "withdrawal")
Chersoń wolny! Rosjanie wycofali się za Dniepr[oko.press] ("wolny" means "free") (yeah, and "Rosjanie wycofali się za Dniepr" means "Russians withdrew beyond the Dnipro River")
Adoring nanny ( talk) 18:21, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
The Russian withdrawal from Kherson will free up the forces of both sides to engage in combat elsewhere, Ukrainian Defense Minister Olekisy Reznikov said in an interview with the Reuters news agency published on Friday, Nov. 11.
...before there was solid evidence of the beginnings of a complete Russian withdrawal from Kherson.
Russian withdrawal from Kherson city will take one week, Ukraine says
The United States has encouraged Ukraine to use the Russian withdrawal from Kherson as a springboard to restart negotiations with Moscow as world leaders meet for G20 talks next week.
Ukraine presidential adviser: Too soon to talk of Russian withdrawal from Kherson
None of this suggests an imminent Russian withdrawal from Kherson.
UK Defence Secretary Ben Wallace has been speaking in Edinburgh about the Russian withdrawal from Kherson.
Russian withdrawal from Kherson to take at least a week, Ukraine defence minister says
The president also said Russia's withdrawal from Kherson is evidence of "some real problems with the Russian military."
Ukrainian forces cautiously advance after Russian withdrawal from Kherson
Russian withdrawal from Kherson will be challenging, UK says
Russia's withdrawal from Kherson 'brings significant reputational damage', MoD says
We start with some comments on Russia's withdrawal from Kherson by General Sir Richard Shirreff, the former NATO deputy supreme allied commander.
That said, US Army Gen. Mark Milley, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, said on Thursday that "we're seeing the beginnings" of the Russian withdrawal from Kherson.
Український журналіст Андрій Цаплієнко звернув увагу, що заяви Суровікіна, Сальдо та Стремоусова збіглися з хвилею натяків на нібито відступ із Херсона у російських провоєнних каналах. "Ukrainian journalist Andriy Tsaplienko drew attention to the fact that the statements of Surovikin, Saldo and Stremousov coincided with a wave of hints about the alleged retreat from Kherson in Russian pro-war channels." Однак поки неясно, чи натякав Суровікін — безжальний генерал і нинішній керівник військовими діями (армії РФ, – Ред.) — на майбутній відхід росіян з Херсона, або ж на нову серію ударів з повітря. "However, it is not yet clear whether Surovikin — a ruthless general and the current head of military operations (of the Russian army, Ed .) — hinted at the future withdrawal of the Russians from Kherson, or at a new series of airstrikes."
According to the Institute for the Study of War (ISW), the priority for the Russian troops in the Kherson area now is the organised withdrawal of their forces across the Dnipro and the delay of the Armed Forces of Ukraine, rather than trying to completely stop the Ukrainian counteroffensive.
De aangekondigde Russische terugtrekking uit Cherson is een grote opsteker voor Oekraïne en een blamage voor Rusland.
La retraite russe de Kherson, quelle que soit sa finalité stratégique réelle, n'en finit pas de susciter des réactions en Russie.
Während sich die Blicke auf den russischen Rückzug aus Cherson richten, dauern die heftigen Kämpfe in anderen Regionen an
Welche Folgen der Rückzug Russlands aus Cherson hat, lesen Sie in dieser Militäranalyse:
I did a Google search just now on "Kherson". I did not search on "liberation" or "withdrawal". These were the top hits:
Former detainees in liberated Kherson allege Russian brutality, torture under occupation[21]
Photos: Liberated Kherson celebrates as Ukrainians prepare for an uncertain future[22]
Russian Military Dismisses ‘Fake’ Soldiers’ Complaint of Chaotic Kherson Retreat[23]
Kherson's newly liberated residents wonder: Who collaborated with the Russians?[24]
I am not going to copy more hits. But if one scrolls down, the trend continues -- there is some reference to "withdrawal". But there is more to "Liberation". Adoring nanny ( talk) 11:13, 18 November 2022 (UTC) Adoring nanny ( talk) 11:13, 18 November 2022 (UTC)
This
edit request to
Liberation of Kherson has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Add this image into aftermath section. It's Kherson on November 19th, 8 days after liberation.
DinoSoupCanada ( talk) 21:28, 24 November 2022 (UTC)