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That heading catched your attention, didn't it? Now, the article is unclear about natural rights vs. utilitarianism. Did some major liberal contingency claim natural rights as a basis for liberal moral, or did the opponents of liberalism claim natural rights? The article should preferrably be clearer of who proponed what, especially in the section "Natural rights vs. utilitarianism". Said: Rursus ☻ 10:22, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
One doesn't have the right to health care, because that implies that someone else must give it to you. One could say that your only rights are those you can protect and defend. However, one could also say that just because your government does not protect your rights or oblige you your rights does not mean that you don't have them. They would say that your rights are being violated. Unfortunately, people have been misinformed about what "Rights" mean. On top of that, others have added this loaded word "privilege" into the discussion. If the government IS the people, then the government does not bestow rights. It certainly does not bestow privileges. It protects rights, and rights come with responsibility. 76.215.47.190 ( talk) 00:55, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
I was wondering if this article has room for a section on the word liberal so often being used as a catch all derogatory word by many media outlets and news analysts. Seems as if, even though it was a trend started by Fox News, it has become a taboo, as many democratic presidential candidates have tried to avoid the description. I came to the article looking for the basis of the word being used as a casual and accepted pejorative, but there isn't any direct information. Seems like a relevant subject. Navis999 ( talk) 11:35, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
ah, thanks. Navis999 ( talk) 09:35, 22 April 2008 (UTC) how do we do that —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.118.10.241 ( talk) 20:30, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
The 3rd paragraph originally referred to rejection of "state religion" as defined by Wikipedia, but was changed to say rejection of "established religion" while maintaining a link to "state religion". Rejecting established religion means something very different to most people than rejecting the concept of a state religion. "Established religion" is even ambiguous in scholarly language. It could mean a religion established by the state, in certain contexts, but it could also mean institutional religion in general. I ask the administrators if they would kindly edit it to say what it means and replace "established religion" with the linked term "State Religion". The inference that many people will make after reading the current wording, that liberals reject all institutional religion, is blatently unfair to liberals by creating a false and negative impression. MaskedWoman ( talk) 14:10, 30 June 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by MaskedWoman ( talk • contribs) 11:37, 30 June 2008 (UTC) MaskedWoman ( talk) 14:21, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
Recent major and rapid edits have destroyed not only the meaning but also the grammar. This is, and has always been, a problem with this article, as people on one side or the other try to change the article to reflect their own POV. I'm going to try to fix things back the way they were, without resorting to a blanket revert. Please keep in mind that this article is not about modern American liberalism, nor about the modern American conservative's view of liberalism, nor about the Libertarian view of liberalism. Discuss major changes here. Rick Norwood ( talk) 13:00, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
I've removed the most blatantly POV material, but kept almost all of the referenced material, and done a minor rewrite for grammar and style. Keep in mind that the lede should be short, and details should be added in the appropriate subsections below. Rick Norwood ( talk) 13:19, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
Your version sounds good to me, except for the last two sentences. The next to last sentence does not sound very "liberal" to me, and the last sentence seems to me to repeat what has already been said earlier. I agree that we need something at the end. How about:
Or something to that effect. Rick Norwood ( talk) 14:35, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
but don´t Liberals eat small children for breakfast? And don´t they smoke the flag and the constitution and make abortions every five minutes...? After all: they´re atheists and so they don´t have any values! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.175.12.147 ( talk) 16:09, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
Compare it to the liberalism articles in *any* other language on wikipedia. Usually these articles vary from 20-30kBytes of text and sum it all up! This page is about 200kBytes with 10 sub-articles expanding it into the megabytes. Of course, all contradicting each other! Do yourself a favour: Delete all that crap! And translate the french one (for example). Thank you! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.33.72.5 ( talk) 21:08, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
Valois bourbon has attempted a number of strongly POV edits in this article and others. As a particularly egregious example, consider the following attempt to edit a direct quote: Protecting the rights of minorities flows naturally from liberal policy, which seeks to ensure equal opportunities for everyone which is actually an impossibility because you can't take from one to give to another without trampling on some-body's rights The phrase beginning ...which is actually an impossibility... was inserted into the quote by Valois bourbon. Rick Norwood ( talk) 19:16, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
Classical liberalism began with Locke, and was first put into practical political form by Thomas Jefferson. The French revolution was based, initially, on classical liberal ideals. The right to property has been an important part of liberalism from the beginning, but it is not the whole story. When Jefferson changed Locke's "life, liberty, and property" to "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness", he took classical liberalism in a new direction. When you describe the Dutch liberal conservatives as wanting both lower taxes and legal cannabis, you are showing how the two strains of classical liberalism: individual freedom and small government, can work together (unlike in the US, where they fight like cats in a sack). As for me talking about "someone else's edit", when you reverted my edit, instead of changing the parts you didn't like, you made it your edit. A great deal of my edit, which you reverted, was fixing mistakes in grammar and usage. Let's see if we can't work together, instead of at cross purposes. Rick Norwood ( talk) 23:26, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
Note to Valois bourbon: The reference is to Martin Luther King, not Martin Luther. Anyone interested in political science should be aware of this speech. The "I have a dream" speech was about the liberal ideal of equality. The ideal of a liberal education was opposed throughout history by some people, and is still opposed by many Libertarians today, on the grounds that they should not be taxed to pay for the education of someone elses kids. I don't understand your reference to the "main article". This is the main and introductory article on liberalism.
Note to OpenFuture: I assume you mean a good argument for not reverting *to* it. I'll take a look and see if I agree or not. Rick Norwood ( talk) 17:54, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
Note to Valois bourbon: your strong belief that economic freedom, not individual freedom, is the cornerstone of liberalism is certainly one belief held by liberals. But it is not the only belief held by liberals, and it is not a belief held by all liberals. Many liberals see the coercive power of wealth as a threat to individual freedom. Another serious problem is the many errors in grammar and usage. There have been so many edits in the past twenty-four hours, both by you and by others, that the article is full of mistakes. Please, slow down and write carefully. Everybody makes mistakes, but when we rush, we tend to make more mistakes. My inclination at this point is to throw out all recent changes, and revert to the version OpenFuture prefers. But, instead I'll take a close look at both versions before acting precipitously. Rick Norwood ( talk) 20:50, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
Having carefully read both, the current version and the version preferred by OpenFuture share the quality of seeming to have been written by a committee. They argue with themselve and repeat themselves. Sigh. I will try to keep the parts that Valois bourbon considers essential (that Liberalism owes at least as much to Adam Smith as to John Locke) but correct the grammar and eliminate the repetition. Rick Norwood ( talk) 20:56, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
I've moved the most contentious and repetitious discussions out of the lede and into their respective sections, where I often found the same ideas repeated. I've tried to improve grammar and reduce repetition. If someone wants to change the lede further, I ask that they please don't repeat what is already said below. Rick Norwood ( talk) 21:11, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
I've been trying to work with Valois bourbon, as have several other editors, but his latest edit is so full of errors that I suggest we simply take turns reverting his edits until he slows down and checks his facts. For example, this from his most recent edit to this article: "The English philosopher John Locke says the first modern liberal state was the United States of America," John Locke died in 1704! Rick Norwood ( talk) 12:47, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
The lead has a reference " Paul Starr, The New Republic, March 2007". This is not sufficient: it does tell which New Republic magazine or article title/page number. Neither is an American left-wing magazine such a scholarly source that would represent a reliable description of the global social liberalism, which is different from American notions. Valois bourbon ( talk) 13:11, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
The claim that the United States is the first liberal state is also a bit controversial; if the lead has space for it, then the far more important role of liberalism in the birth of modern capitalism definitely deserves to be mentioned. Valois bourbon ( talk) 13:17, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
Valois bourbon's edits are growing more extreme, rather than less. I've just reverted edits that claim liberalism is a synonym for left-wing and left-wing means socialist or communist. The clear implication is that all liberals are socialists or communists. If there are any other people here who are liberals but not socialists nor communists, I'd appreciate a little help in getting Valois's rapid edits under control. Rick Norwood ( talk) 15:36, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
You have been told this many times before, but once again: American use of the word "liberal" is opposite to that in the rest of the world. In most parts of the world, the word "liberal" refers to right-wing politics. Actually, the left even uses the word "liberal" as a pejorative word for "right-wing". You keep inserting non-sense claims such as "economic liberals call themselves classical liberals": many liberal movements are both culturally and economically liberal, more information can be found one click away and other editors should not need to repeat these facts endlessly. Valois bourbon ( talk) 23:49, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
Ludwig von Mises is one example of an Austrian who, in 1923, used "classical liberalism" to mean "economic liberalism", with the implication that this was standard usage at the time. Modern reviews of his books are a delightful Alice-in-Wonderland mix of assertions that liberalism used to mean social liberalism but now means economic liberalism, assertions that liberalism used to mean economic liberalism but now means social liberalism, and all kinds of assumptions about what liberalism "really" means. Liberalism means what the dictionary says it means. Any other assertion leads to a failure to communicate. In any case, von Mises is an example that shows my assertion that (some) economic liberals outside the US call themselves classic liberals is not "non-sense". Rick Norwood ( talk) 17:25, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
I have removed some statements from the lead; the statements and my reasons for removing them are as follows: 1. "The first modern liberal state was the United States of America."
2. "...founded on the principle that 'all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness; that to insure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed.'"
3. "Pioneers of liberalism such as Adam Smith conceptualized free markets, free trade, invisible hand, spontaneous order..."
The first two references were added to the article by me. Clearly the claim that the United States was the first liberal democracy was made by the editor, Sigmund, who is the person referenced in the citation. He is a noted scholar -- I don't know what you mean by "a theoretician of liberalism". The claim that the Declaration of Independence lays out the principles of liberalism is so well-known as to hardly require a reference, but many are easily found. For example, from the Encyclopedia Britannica article Declaration of Independence, Jefferson's political theory was that of Locke, whose words the Declaration echoes. This also from that article, quoting Leslie Stephen, "by the Declaration a State, for the first time in history, founded its life on democratic idealism".
Since I did not offer the reference to Adam Smith, I will leave that for others to defend.
Rick Norwood ( talk) 14:35, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
The intro said that all liberals believe in free markets. That's clearly not the case, as can be seen with what are called liberals in America. From the Encyclopedia Britannica article I sourced discussing "modern liberalism": "Liberals asserted that the rewards dispensed by the free market were too crude a measure of the contribution most people made to society and that the free market ignored the needs of those who lacked opportunity or who were economically exploited. They contended that the enormous social costs incurred in production were not reflected in market prices and that resources were often used wastefully. Not least, liberals perceived that the free market biased the allocation of human and physical resources toward the satisfaction of consumer appetites—e.g., for automobiles, home appliances, or fashionable clothing—while basic needs—e.g., for schools, housing, public transit, and sewage treatment—went unmet. Finally, although liberals believed that prices, wages, and profits should continue to be subject to negotiation among the interested parties and responsive to conventional market pressures, they insisted that price-wage-profit decisions affecting the economy as a whole must be reconciled with public policy...." This article has problems. It's trying to discuss modern liberalism and classical liberalism as the same thing, when they're pretty much opposites. It needs to be broken down to a section on classical, then a section on modern. Many Heads ( talk) 07:07, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
If this article is going to represent all "liberalism," then it can't represent all liberalism as classical liberalism. There are very few things on the economic front that classical liberalism and modern American liberalism have in common. Many Heads ( talk) 01:23, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
We need to make a distinction between what liberals say, and what conservatives, for political reasons, pretend liberals say. Mainstream modern liberals favor free markets, because we recognize that free markets lead to prosperity. We oppose big government, because we realize that big government leads to oppression. But our positions tend to be pragmatic rather than absolute. That is, we've got big government, whether we like it or not, and so we want a big government that does not favor the upper class.
As for "free markets", the old rule of fist and face applies. Your right to swing your fist ends where my face begins. Your freedom of enterprise ends when polution from your enterprise blows over your fence into my face.
If you believe that mainstream liberals oppose free markets, cite references. Rick Norwood ( talk) 14:32, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
Modern conservatives (in mainstream Western political parties) also support minimum wage laws, transfer payments and forced social security, or at least they don't openly oppose them. No mainstream Western political party with any hopes for electoral success supports a totally laissez-faire economy. Spylab ( talk) 23:07, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
As has been often pointed out, modern liberals and modern conservatives in the United States agree about most things. Note that it was George Bush, usually considered a conservative and supported by the classical liberals, who pushed for nationalizing banks. As early as 2000, right after he was elected, he sent every taxpayer $300 in "free" money. The big differences between liberals and conservatives these past eight years have all involved freedom vs. tradition: freedom of women to get an abortion, freedom of homosexuals to marry, freedom of scientists to report the facts, freedom of parents rather than schools or the courts to decide how their children should be taught religion, freedom of researchers to use stem cells, freedom of soldiers to return home after the tour of duty they signed up for is over. I think on all of these issues, the classical liberals agree with the social liberals.
Now, to the question of whether Libertarianism is mainstream: Libertarianism has never been put into practice in any country at any time. Libertarians have occasionally been elected to office, but rarely, and a Libertarian candidate for president has never gotten more than a small percentage of the vote. My guess is that Libertarians constitute at most a few percent of the population. I'm not sure what percent of the population it takes to be "mainstream" -- how would you answer that question?
Rick Norwood ( talk) 13:49, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
This is the kind of thing Libertarians like to say. That it is absolutely false doesn't stop libertarians from saying it. Can a nation with institutionalized chattal slavery be Libertarian? Did slaves have "personal liberty". And, of course, you are also wrong about minimal intervention in the economy. Here is Thomas Jefferson on the subject, "The more debt Hamilton could rake up, the more plunder for his mercenaries. This money, whether wisely or foolishly spent, was pretended to have been spent for general purposes and ought, therefore, to be paid from the general purse." Only, as I'm sure you know, Hamilton won this battle, and Jefferson lost, and the result was a national debt that has grown and grown and grown, as special interests (like Hamilton and his cronies) convinced the Federal Government to give them bushels of free money. Hardly a Libertarian ideal.
As for personal freedom, I am infinitely more free now than I would have been in 1776. Even if I were lucky enough to have been born a landed white male, I could still have been put in the stocks for failing to go to church on Sunday, or jailed for criticizing President Adams (under the alien and sedition acts), or lynched for advocating an end to slavery. Rick Norwood ( talk) 14:34, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
The phrase "welfare state" is used by opponents of modern liberalism to characterize liberals as favoring people on the dole over working people. This is clearly not what liberals believe. So, let's try spelling out what forms of government regulation modern liberals do believe in that classical liberals oppose. I've put a list into the article. Feel free to add to the list or remove items from the list. But don't claim liberals support the "welfare state" unless you find a major liberal author who says, "Liberals support the welfare state." Schlesinger, who you reference, certainly doesn't say that. He uses the phrase when quoting opponents of liberalism. Rick Norwood ( talk) 14:30, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
Good quotes. Go with them. Rick Norwood ( talk) 14:22, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
Can you be more specific? Rick Norwood ( talk) 17:10, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
Liberals generally favor laws against monopoly, pollution, and discrimination in hiring. Nobody I know of favors laws against private discrimination -- that is, if I choose not to have any friends who are different from myself, I'm free to make that choice. The only time discrimination becomes a legal issue is when the effect of the discrimination involves interstate commerce. Thus, motels in the South can no longer refuse to rent rooms to Blacks, and employees who conduct their business across state lines cannot refuse to hire Blacks. Note that there are still many "social clubs" and country clubs, where the important business of the state is conducted, which exclude Blacks, women, and Jews.
As for the question of whether conservatives also favor regulating pollution -- some do and some don't, but the big-business conservatives spend a lot of money repealing regulations against pollution. For example, mercury pollution which lowers the IQ of children is now common, thanks for lowered standards pushed through by conservatives. Rick Norwood ( talk) 13:36, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
Singwaste ( talk) 02:04, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
After reading the Encyclopedia Britannica Online article, and thinking about other books and articles I've read, I think the best approach is to state what social liberals believe and state what classical liberals believe, without going into the question of what these groups do not believe. I'm going to edit the lede accordingly.
Singwaste: I've seen other attempts to move discussion of the issues in an article off the talk page of that article, and in my experience, they don't work well. What often happens is that the disussion fragments, with one group on the new page and another group, arriving to the discussion late, making the same points on the article's talk page. It seems to me best to keep the discussion in one place. Many Heads and I are reasonable people, and are resolving our differences by rational discussion and by quotations from sources. Rick Norwood ( talk) 13:45, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
In response to a claim that liberalism does not advocate equality.
The foundational documents of liberalism stress both freedom and equality. "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal..."
We know those high ideals were expressed by a man who owned slaves, and that while we are much closer to true equality today, we still have a way to go. Still, one of the two principles that unite liberals is the idea of equality, in the sense of equal rights. The liberal movement has consistently been in that direction, with equality for Negros first, then for women, maybe someday for homosexuals.
By equality, I mean equality before the law -- obviously all men are not equal at birth, but the law should not favor those born with greater advantages. Sometimes equality and freedom conflict. My freedom to own slaves conflicts with the slave's equality under the law. But more often the two ideals are complementary. My equal rights give me the freedom to walk down the sidewalk without the law telling me I must step into the gutter to allow a better man to pass.
Rick Norwood ( talk) 14:31, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
Affirmative action is a problem. By its nature, affirmative action favors white Christians over better qualified Asians and Jews, and Blacks over better qualified Whites. It ought to be done away with, on liberal principles. But people who are pragmatic accept that ending affirmative action would result in the distruction of a major American resource, our Ivy League universities. Without affirmative action, the next Freshman class at Harvard, Yale, and Princeton (not to mention M.I.T.) would be entirely Asian. Since the power elite in America are not going to admit that many Asians to the corridors of power, no matter how qualified they are, the result would be a loss of influence, and the sons of presidents and CEO's would simply move down the list until they found a university that was mostly white, with a resulting loss of prestige for the "Ivy League" -- now the "Asian and Jewish" -- schools. Meanwhile, the number of Black's in top schools would drop into the single digits, and instead of the rich and powerful in America being 99% White, they would be 100% White. You may or may not like that idea, but is it worth destroying Harvard and Yale to achieve? Rick Norwood ( talk) 14:03, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
This is not a chat room, so I hope the point of this discussion is to find common ground to work toward a better article.
The Constitution of the United States, in listing the reasons why the United States was founded, includes "to promote the general welfare". The idea is not that hard to understand -- a person who is out of work, or diseased, or ignorant, is a threat to the welfare of the nation. Everyone benefits from jobs, health care, and education. Just look around the world, at those nations who provide for their poorer citizens, and those nations who do not, and you tell me where the most freedom is -- not to mention the greatest prosperity. Rick Norwood ( talk) 22:03, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
The difference is that Libertarians claim an ideal "Original liberalism" that never existed. Modern American and European and Japanese and Canadian and Australian liberals point to a system of free and open government that has been the most successful on the planet. Rick Norwood ( talk) 23:42, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
Some people use the phrase "classical liberal" to mean "libertarian". The proper usage would mean followers of John Locke, Adam Smith, and Thomas Jefferson. Your usage seems to mean "opposition to a graduated income tax". If I've misunderstood you, please let me know the sense in which you are using this often misused phrase.
If you do use the phrase to mean opposition to a graduated income tax, then I must point out that Adam Smith, who is usually considered a classical liberal, understood why a graduated income tax was good for the economy, and why our current income tax structure, in which the poor pay a greater percentage of their income in taxes than do the rich, is bad for the economy.
Equality, in this case, can mean two things. It could mean that everyone, rich and poor alike, should pay $3000 a year in taxes (budget divided by population). Or it could mean that everyone, rich and poor alike, pay 15% of their income in taxes (percent needed to balance the budget). The problem with the former model is that it leads to homelessness and starvation, which is bad for everybody. For reasons that a graduated income tax is better for the economy than either of these, I refer you to Wealth of Nations. Rick Norwood ( talk) 15:59, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
Ah, wellfare. Actually, welfare seldom gives free money to men who do no work these days, or to women unless they have children. They do give food stamps -- should people who are out of work be allowed to starve? And they do give money to help children. They also give limited unemployment benefits to people who loose their jobs.
I suspect that when you and I picture someone who gets financial help from the government, we have a very different picture. I picture an woman with a small child whose husband abandoned her, who works as a waitress, who has to pay taxes on her tips whether she gets any tips or not, and who needs food stamps to keep her child from starving. I imagine your picture is very different. Rick Norwood ( talk) 16:39, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
Your understanding of "equality" is different from mine. A bank robber might complain that he was not being treated equally with an honest citizen, but different circumstances demand different treatment. You and the welfare mother are treated equally if, in similar circumstances, you receive equal help. Rick Norwood ( talk) 23:32, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
The right to be highly taxed. The right to a monopolized health care. The right to a monopolized education system. The right to nationalized, and thus monopolized, industries. The right to pay for someone else' abortion. The right to go on welfare. The right to be in gun-free country/state (well, at least if you're a law abiding citizen).
Please, give me a break. Liberals support having the society work for you. They support no individual rights. The editors who have kept it there are responsible for destroying Wikipedia's neutrality.
The funny thing is, though, if your stance truly makes sense, you don't have to lie about it. Since you're obviously lying about liberalism... 71.204.61.136 ( talk) 00:08, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
Oh my bad. Obama will raise taxes, as he said. He might say it's on top 5% of the wealthiest but where do you think that money will come from? Your wallets. So because of him you will have less money. He also wants national health care. He wants to, instead of give school vouchers, give gov't school more money, something that has proven to be completely ineffective in improving students achievements. Many liberals have wanted nationalized industries (or ones highly controlled by gov't) and praise them all the time (New Deal, anything with Jimmy Carter." Obama supported an act where gov't would pay (you would pay) for someone who wanted an abortion. He also supported everything he could to make purchasing/carrying a loaded firearm impossible, so he is anti-gun. These aren't claims. This is solid fact. I could not make a list this bad with republicans that would be this anti-individual. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.204.61.136 ( talk) 00:59, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
No, because of Obama I will have more money. And so will you. Your "solid facts" are memes you've picked up from conservative propaganda. Their goal is to convince the poor to vote in favor of the rich, instead of in their own self-interest. If they were "solid facts", you would be able to document them, and they would properly form part of this article. Rick Norwood ( talk) 21:28, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
Everything I just said has been preached by Obama himself, and can also be proven by looking at his voting record. There is no need to document it. Do I need to document that he was the most liberal Senator as well? These facts have nothing to do with a propaganda machine. Republicans don't even ahve propaganda machines because you don't need propaganda to achieve individual rights whereas you do need it to set laws that take rights away from people (such as the ones mentioned in my earlier paragraph). There is nothing liberals support that gives more power to the individual. Actually, legalization of drugs, keeping abortion legal (but not make the gov't pay for it), and allowing anyone to be married are the only liberal rights I would support bc they give power to the individual but laws that take your money away and drive away incentives for entrepreneurship and even make it hard for you to arm yourself (wtf?) are anti individual. Therefore, this article should be changed so readers know that liberals, or at least liberal in America, are for bigger gov't and against individual (it's impossible to be for both). 71.204.61.136 ( talk) 00:47, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
This page claims that the USA was the first liberal state, based on "all men are created equal(1); that they are endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights; that among these are life(2), liberty(3), and the pursuit of happiness)4); that to insure these rights, governments are instituted among men(5), deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed(6)." 86.85.230.207 ( talk) 17:41, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
But this is pretty much just a rewritten version of the opening words of the Dutch Act of Abjuration. 86.85.230.207 ( talk) 17:41, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
"As it is apparent to all that a prince is constituted by God to be ruler of a people, to defend them from oppression(3) and violence(2) as the shepherd his sheep; and whereas God did not create the people slaves to their prince(1), to obey his commands(3), whether right or wrong, but rather the prince for the sake of the subjects(5) (without which he could be no prince)(6), to govern them according to equity(1), to love and support them as a father his children or a shepherd his flock(4), and even at the hazard of life to defend and preserve them(2)." [2] 86.85.230.207 ( talk) 17:41, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
I have trouble with the "first liberal state" claim for which no page number is cited in the source. Who was second or third? Were the thirteen colonies illiberal until 1776 or were they liberal from their settlement? In what years did the UK or Holland become liberal? I think it would be more accurate to state that they were the first country to have a written constitution based on liberal principles. The Four Deuces ( talk) 23:20, 14 February 2009 (UTC)
There are no references for the definition given of "liberal conservatism". Every mention I have found of it is of conservatives who have have accepted the liberal state, e.g., English Tories who accepted the 1688 Revolution. The Liberals in Australia did not consider themselves, "liberal conservatives', which is why they called themselves liberals, not conservatives. See Ideologies (1996), Larry Johnston, p. 95, but the concept is described in many other books as well. The Four Deuces ( talk) 11:08, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
This section cites no sources and is OR. Post-war Social Democratic governments did nationalize companies, but so have other types of governments. There is debate whether this was done for ideological or practical reasons. However, large-scale nationalization is not part of any current social democratic party's platform. The Four Deuces ( talk) 14:57, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
As there were no comments, I have made the changes. The Four Deuces ( talk) 19:09, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
At the end of the intro is the statement:
All Libs are idiots. they believe in murder, and they love muslims. they are what cause the people in 9/11 to suffer.
Obviously someone was acting out of immaturity and added it to be negative. I feel it should be removed but didn't know if it needed to be discussed first. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.215.237.220 ( talk) 05:03, 13 December 2006 (UTC).
I agree this is a biased ignorant clearly American statement that needs to be removed immediately.
I did not know exactly what liberalism was and I was still left wondering what it meant after reading the first few sentences in this article. I had to look elsewhere for a better definition. I think the introduction needs to be re-written. yettie0711 ( talk) 17:29, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
It would help if you explained more fully what you do not understand. Liberalism supports individual liberty: freedom of speech, freedom of religion, freedom of assembly, and the right to vote in open and fair democratic elections. Rick Norwood ( talk) 14:29, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
E2a2j: there is an article Liberalism in the United States, but I think the real problem is that for an American to understand liberalism is like a fish trying to understand water. American society is so liberal that liberalism permeates the way we think and everything we do. To see that, you would need to live for a year in an absolute monarchy, or under a dictator, or where religious law was the law of the land. When you returned to America, then you would know what liberalism is. Rick Norwood ( talk) 19:14, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
All liberals, as well as some adherents of other political ideologies, support some variant of the form of government known as liberal democracy, with open and fair elections, where all citizens have equal rights by law. Not all liberals, this is plain obvious. Not all liberals support any kind of democracy - some believe in enlightened monarchy or dictatorship..., just to name two examples. Those are not contraditory to liberalism, they might not be practical, but there are people who belive in them.
Second, almost no liberal believes that every citizien should have equal voting rights - immature, mentally ill etc. people, while being citiziens, have their laws restricted.
Third - the word equal, and earlier equality, is used in first paragraph. It is ambiguous - does it mean every voter has one vote? Because it might mean you get as many votes as you can pay for, or as intelligent you are.
Now, a bit of OR, but it's important. Liberalism is about believing that every human being has the law to be free, and that this freedom is definable. Now, nobody who is truly liberal, believe that any two people have law to force anything on one fellow men, just because of them being majority in this situation. That's why democracy is more of practical attempt to create liberal state, rather then the goal of liberalism itself. And i myself support democracy, but not practical examples, like European Union or United States of Americe - i believe this can be done better, more liberal. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.61.58.183 ( talk) 12:34, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
Liberals do not believe in socio-economic equality, or equality of condition. Socio-economic equality is NOT a political goal of liberalism. Liberalism believes in equality of opportunity and equality under the law; therefore we should define what type of "equality" the liberals support. "Equality" is a vague term that can describe many things and it could be confused as equality of condition and a form of socialism to a reader who doesn't know what liberalism is. This is why it should be written "equality under the law" and not just equality. Liberals think all men should be equal under the law. But all men cannot be equal in socio-economic life. Rick, answer this by next week or I'm going to modify that sentence. Ithaka84 ( talk) 01:49, 28 March 2009 (UTC)
No, because it limits to two areas a much broader concept. You could, I suppose, add a disclaimer that liberals do not claim that people are equally pretty or equally good ice skaters, but everybody understands that already, so it would clutter up the lede. Rick Norwood ( talk) 12:48, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
While liberals have owned slaves, I don't know of any liberals who "promoted slavery". Jefferson, for example, as a liberal wrote against slavery, while as a spendthrift he couldn't afford to give up the slaves that allowed him to pay his debts. As with many of us, there was a big difference between what he promoted and what he actually did.
As for what "classical liberals" think, one problem with the article is that people with very different views claim descent from classical liberalism (much as both the Democrats and the Republicans claim to be the party of Lincoln).
However, this emphasis on "equality under the law" entirely misunderstands what "all men are created equal" means. The assertion here (which nobody ever understood to mean that all people are born equally smart or equally intelligent) is that all people have equal value, not just before the law, but in every other way. That it is not socially acceptable for a well born man walking down the sidewalk to push a low born man into the ditch. Never mind whether it is legal -- is it admirable? Rick Norwood ( talk) 12:24, 5 April 2009 (UTC)
Thanks for the information, The Four Deuces. I did not know that Locke defended slavery. Rick Norwood ( talk) 13:29, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
Adam Smith's support for heavy taxation of the wealthy was explicit, not tacit. On the other hand, I don't know what tax rate he considered "heavy", just that he understood that those who benefit most from a society should expect to bear most of the cost.
This section has gotten too long. Let's start a new section for future comments. Rick Norwood ( talk) 15:22, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
You evidently think liberals are unable to clearly state their beliefs. You are wrong.
Liberals believe in freedom. We believe that freedom is only possible under good government, that a weak government leads to anarchy, and so we willing pay our taxes, as the price of freedom and prosperity. We believe that when citizens are healthy and educated, everyone benefits. We believe that extremes of poverty lead to crime and corruption, and that in the long run is is both more economical and more humane to relieve poverty than to keep a large percentage of the poor behind bars. We wish conservatives would stop lying about us, but we will defend to the death your freedom to do so. Rick Norwood ( talk) 20:18, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
UberCryxic:
Anyone who opposes slavery favors freedom and is to that extent a liberal. But in religion Wilberforce was a conservative, and opposed slavery because it was against the teachings of Christ. It is especially important, in controversial articles such as this one, to be discriminating and informed in our judgments and moderate in our tone. Rick Norwood ( talk) 14:52, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
Didn't know there was a recent movie about Wilberforce. What's the title? Rick Norwood ( talk) 15:24, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
Thanks for the info. I've added it to my Netflix queue. Rick Norwood ( talk) 19:54, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
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That heading catched your attention, didn't it? Now, the article is unclear about natural rights vs. utilitarianism. Did some major liberal contingency claim natural rights as a basis for liberal moral, or did the opponents of liberalism claim natural rights? The article should preferrably be clearer of who proponed what, especially in the section "Natural rights vs. utilitarianism". Said: Rursus ☻ 10:22, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
One doesn't have the right to health care, because that implies that someone else must give it to you. One could say that your only rights are those you can protect and defend. However, one could also say that just because your government does not protect your rights or oblige you your rights does not mean that you don't have them. They would say that your rights are being violated. Unfortunately, people have been misinformed about what "Rights" mean. On top of that, others have added this loaded word "privilege" into the discussion. If the government IS the people, then the government does not bestow rights. It certainly does not bestow privileges. It protects rights, and rights come with responsibility. 76.215.47.190 ( talk) 00:55, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
I was wondering if this article has room for a section on the word liberal so often being used as a catch all derogatory word by many media outlets and news analysts. Seems as if, even though it was a trend started by Fox News, it has become a taboo, as many democratic presidential candidates have tried to avoid the description. I came to the article looking for the basis of the word being used as a casual and accepted pejorative, but there isn't any direct information. Seems like a relevant subject. Navis999 ( talk) 11:35, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
ah, thanks. Navis999 ( talk) 09:35, 22 April 2008 (UTC) how do we do that —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.118.10.241 ( talk) 20:30, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
The 3rd paragraph originally referred to rejection of "state religion" as defined by Wikipedia, but was changed to say rejection of "established religion" while maintaining a link to "state religion". Rejecting established religion means something very different to most people than rejecting the concept of a state religion. "Established religion" is even ambiguous in scholarly language. It could mean a religion established by the state, in certain contexts, but it could also mean institutional religion in general. I ask the administrators if they would kindly edit it to say what it means and replace "established religion" with the linked term "State Religion". The inference that many people will make after reading the current wording, that liberals reject all institutional religion, is blatently unfair to liberals by creating a false and negative impression. MaskedWoman ( talk) 14:10, 30 June 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by MaskedWoman ( talk • contribs) 11:37, 30 June 2008 (UTC) MaskedWoman ( talk) 14:21, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
Recent major and rapid edits have destroyed not only the meaning but also the grammar. This is, and has always been, a problem with this article, as people on one side or the other try to change the article to reflect their own POV. I'm going to try to fix things back the way they were, without resorting to a blanket revert. Please keep in mind that this article is not about modern American liberalism, nor about the modern American conservative's view of liberalism, nor about the Libertarian view of liberalism. Discuss major changes here. Rick Norwood ( talk) 13:00, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
I've removed the most blatantly POV material, but kept almost all of the referenced material, and done a minor rewrite for grammar and style. Keep in mind that the lede should be short, and details should be added in the appropriate subsections below. Rick Norwood ( talk) 13:19, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
Your version sounds good to me, except for the last two sentences. The next to last sentence does not sound very "liberal" to me, and the last sentence seems to me to repeat what has already been said earlier. I agree that we need something at the end. How about:
Or something to that effect. Rick Norwood ( talk) 14:35, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
but don´t Liberals eat small children for breakfast? And don´t they smoke the flag and the constitution and make abortions every five minutes...? After all: they´re atheists and so they don´t have any values! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.175.12.147 ( talk) 16:09, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
Compare it to the liberalism articles in *any* other language on wikipedia. Usually these articles vary from 20-30kBytes of text and sum it all up! This page is about 200kBytes with 10 sub-articles expanding it into the megabytes. Of course, all contradicting each other! Do yourself a favour: Delete all that crap! And translate the french one (for example). Thank you! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.33.72.5 ( talk) 21:08, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
Valois bourbon has attempted a number of strongly POV edits in this article and others. As a particularly egregious example, consider the following attempt to edit a direct quote: Protecting the rights of minorities flows naturally from liberal policy, which seeks to ensure equal opportunities for everyone which is actually an impossibility because you can't take from one to give to another without trampling on some-body's rights The phrase beginning ...which is actually an impossibility... was inserted into the quote by Valois bourbon. Rick Norwood ( talk) 19:16, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
Classical liberalism began with Locke, and was first put into practical political form by Thomas Jefferson. The French revolution was based, initially, on classical liberal ideals. The right to property has been an important part of liberalism from the beginning, but it is not the whole story. When Jefferson changed Locke's "life, liberty, and property" to "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness", he took classical liberalism in a new direction. When you describe the Dutch liberal conservatives as wanting both lower taxes and legal cannabis, you are showing how the two strains of classical liberalism: individual freedom and small government, can work together (unlike in the US, where they fight like cats in a sack). As for me talking about "someone else's edit", when you reverted my edit, instead of changing the parts you didn't like, you made it your edit. A great deal of my edit, which you reverted, was fixing mistakes in grammar and usage. Let's see if we can't work together, instead of at cross purposes. Rick Norwood ( talk) 23:26, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
Note to Valois bourbon: The reference is to Martin Luther King, not Martin Luther. Anyone interested in political science should be aware of this speech. The "I have a dream" speech was about the liberal ideal of equality. The ideal of a liberal education was opposed throughout history by some people, and is still opposed by many Libertarians today, on the grounds that they should not be taxed to pay for the education of someone elses kids. I don't understand your reference to the "main article". This is the main and introductory article on liberalism.
Note to OpenFuture: I assume you mean a good argument for not reverting *to* it. I'll take a look and see if I agree or not. Rick Norwood ( talk) 17:54, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
Note to Valois bourbon: your strong belief that economic freedom, not individual freedom, is the cornerstone of liberalism is certainly one belief held by liberals. But it is not the only belief held by liberals, and it is not a belief held by all liberals. Many liberals see the coercive power of wealth as a threat to individual freedom. Another serious problem is the many errors in grammar and usage. There have been so many edits in the past twenty-four hours, both by you and by others, that the article is full of mistakes. Please, slow down and write carefully. Everybody makes mistakes, but when we rush, we tend to make more mistakes. My inclination at this point is to throw out all recent changes, and revert to the version OpenFuture prefers. But, instead I'll take a close look at both versions before acting precipitously. Rick Norwood ( talk) 20:50, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
Having carefully read both, the current version and the version preferred by OpenFuture share the quality of seeming to have been written by a committee. They argue with themselve and repeat themselves. Sigh. I will try to keep the parts that Valois bourbon considers essential (that Liberalism owes at least as much to Adam Smith as to John Locke) but correct the grammar and eliminate the repetition. Rick Norwood ( talk) 20:56, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
I've moved the most contentious and repetitious discussions out of the lede and into their respective sections, where I often found the same ideas repeated. I've tried to improve grammar and reduce repetition. If someone wants to change the lede further, I ask that they please don't repeat what is already said below. Rick Norwood ( talk) 21:11, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
I've been trying to work with Valois bourbon, as have several other editors, but his latest edit is so full of errors that I suggest we simply take turns reverting his edits until he slows down and checks his facts. For example, this from his most recent edit to this article: "The English philosopher John Locke says the first modern liberal state was the United States of America," John Locke died in 1704! Rick Norwood ( talk) 12:47, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
The lead has a reference " Paul Starr, The New Republic, March 2007". This is not sufficient: it does tell which New Republic magazine or article title/page number. Neither is an American left-wing magazine such a scholarly source that would represent a reliable description of the global social liberalism, which is different from American notions. Valois bourbon ( talk) 13:11, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
The claim that the United States is the first liberal state is also a bit controversial; if the lead has space for it, then the far more important role of liberalism in the birth of modern capitalism definitely deserves to be mentioned. Valois bourbon ( talk) 13:17, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
Valois bourbon's edits are growing more extreme, rather than less. I've just reverted edits that claim liberalism is a synonym for left-wing and left-wing means socialist or communist. The clear implication is that all liberals are socialists or communists. If there are any other people here who are liberals but not socialists nor communists, I'd appreciate a little help in getting Valois's rapid edits under control. Rick Norwood ( talk) 15:36, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
You have been told this many times before, but once again: American use of the word "liberal" is opposite to that in the rest of the world. In most parts of the world, the word "liberal" refers to right-wing politics. Actually, the left even uses the word "liberal" as a pejorative word for "right-wing". You keep inserting non-sense claims such as "economic liberals call themselves classical liberals": many liberal movements are both culturally and economically liberal, more information can be found one click away and other editors should not need to repeat these facts endlessly. Valois bourbon ( talk) 23:49, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
Ludwig von Mises is one example of an Austrian who, in 1923, used "classical liberalism" to mean "economic liberalism", with the implication that this was standard usage at the time. Modern reviews of his books are a delightful Alice-in-Wonderland mix of assertions that liberalism used to mean social liberalism but now means economic liberalism, assertions that liberalism used to mean economic liberalism but now means social liberalism, and all kinds of assumptions about what liberalism "really" means. Liberalism means what the dictionary says it means. Any other assertion leads to a failure to communicate. In any case, von Mises is an example that shows my assertion that (some) economic liberals outside the US call themselves classic liberals is not "non-sense". Rick Norwood ( talk) 17:25, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
I have removed some statements from the lead; the statements and my reasons for removing them are as follows: 1. "The first modern liberal state was the United States of America."
2. "...founded on the principle that 'all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness; that to insure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed.'"
3. "Pioneers of liberalism such as Adam Smith conceptualized free markets, free trade, invisible hand, spontaneous order..."
The first two references were added to the article by me. Clearly the claim that the United States was the first liberal democracy was made by the editor, Sigmund, who is the person referenced in the citation. He is a noted scholar -- I don't know what you mean by "a theoretician of liberalism". The claim that the Declaration of Independence lays out the principles of liberalism is so well-known as to hardly require a reference, but many are easily found. For example, from the Encyclopedia Britannica article Declaration of Independence, Jefferson's political theory was that of Locke, whose words the Declaration echoes. This also from that article, quoting Leslie Stephen, "by the Declaration a State, for the first time in history, founded its life on democratic idealism".
Since I did not offer the reference to Adam Smith, I will leave that for others to defend.
Rick Norwood ( talk) 14:35, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
The intro said that all liberals believe in free markets. That's clearly not the case, as can be seen with what are called liberals in America. From the Encyclopedia Britannica article I sourced discussing "modern liberalism": "Liberals asserted that the rewards dispensed by the free market were too crude a measure of the contribution most people made to society and that the free market ignored the needs of those who lacked opportunity or who were economically exploited. They contended that the enormous social costs incurred in production were not reflected in market prices and that resources were often used wastefully. Not least, liberals perceived that the free market biased the allocation of human and physical resources toward the satisfaction of consumer appetites—e.g., for automobiles, home appliances, or fashionable clothing—while basic needs—e.g., for schools, housing, public transit, and sewage treatment—went unmet. Finally, although liberals believed that prices, wages, and profits should continue to be subject to negotiation among the interested parties and responsive to conventional market pressures, they insisted that price-wage-profit decisions affecting the economy as a whole must be reconciled with public policy...." This article has problems. It's trying to discuss modern liberalism and classical liberalism as the same thing, when they're pretty much opposites. It needs to be broken down to a section on classical, then a section on modern. Many Heads ( talk) 07:07, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
If this article is going to represent all "liberalism," then it can't represent all liberalism as classical liberalism. There are very few things on the economic front that classical liberalism and modern American liberalism have in common. Many Heads ( talk) 01:23, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
We need to make a distinction between what liberals say, and what conservatives, for political reasons, pretend liberals say. Mainstream modern liberals favor free markets, because we recognize that free markets lead to prosperity. We oppose big government, because we realize that big government leads to oppression. But our positions tend to be pragmatic rather than absolute. That is, we've got big government, whether we like it or not, and so we want a big government that does not favor the upper class.
As for "free markets", the old rule of fist and face applies. Your right to swing your fist ends where my face begins. Your freedom of enterprise ends when polution from your enterprise blows over your fence into my face.
If you believe that mainstream liberals oppose free markets, cite references. Rick Norwood ( talk) 14:32, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
Modern conservatives (in mainstream Western political parties) also support minimum wage laws, transfer payments and forced social security, or at least they don't openly oppose them. No mainstream Western political party with any hopes for electoral success supports a totally laissez-faire economy. Spylab ( talk) 23:07, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
As has been often pointed out, modern liberals and modern conservatives in the United States agree about most things. Note that it was George Bush, usually considered a conservative and supported by the classical liberals, who pushed for nationalizing banks. As early as 2000, right after he was elected, he sent every taxpayer $300 in "free" money. The big differences between liberals and conservatives these past eight years have all involved freedom vs. tradition: freedom of women to get an abortion, freedom of homosexuals to marry, freedom of scientists to report the facts, freedom of parents rather than schools or the courts to decide how their children should be taught religion, freedom of researchers to use stem cells, freedom of soldiers to return home after the tour of duty they signed up for is over. I think on all of these issues, the classical liberals agree with the social liberals.
Now, to the question of whether Libertarianism is mainstream: Libertarianism has never been put into practice in any country at any time. Libertarians have occasionally been elected to office, but rarely, and a Libertarian candidate for president has never gotten more than a small percentage of the vote. My guess is that Libertarians constitute at most a few percent of the population. I'm not sure what percent of the population it takes to be "mainstream" -- how would you answer that question?
Rick Norwood ( talk) 13:49, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
This is the kind of thing Libertarians like to say. That it is absolutely false doesn't stop libertarians from saying it. Can a nation with institutionalized chattal slavery be Libertarian? Did slaves have "personal liberty". And, of course, you are also wrong about minimal intervention in the economy. Here is Thomas Jefferson on the subject, "The more debt Hamilton could rake up, the more plunder for his mercenaries. This money, whether wisely or foolishly spent, was pretended to have been spent for general purposes and ought, therefore, to be paid from the general purse." Only, as I'm sure you know, Hamilton won this battle, and Jefferson lost, and the result was a national debt that has grown and grown and grown, as special interests (like Hamilton and his cronies) convinced the Federal Government to give them bushels of free money. Hardly a Libertarian ideal.
As for personal freedom, I am infinitely more free now than I would have been in 1776. Even if I were lucky enough to have been born a landed white male, I could still have been put in the stocks for failing to go to church on Sunday, or jailed for criticizing President Adams (under the alien and sedition acts), or lynched for advocating an end to slavery. Rick Norwood ( talk) 14:34, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
The phrase "welfare state" is used by opponents of modern liberalism to characterize liberals as favoring people on the dole over working people. This is clearly not what liberals believe. So, let's try spelling out what forms of government regulation modern liberals do believe in that classical liberals oppose. I've put a list into the article. Feel free to add to the list or remove items from the list. But don't claim liberals support the "welfare state" unless you find a major liberal author who says, "Liberals support the welfare state." Schlesinger, who you reference, certainly doesn't say that. He uses the phrase when quoting opponents of liberalism. Rick Norwood ( talk) 14:30, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
Good quotes. Go with them. Rick Norwood ( talk) 14:22, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
Can you be more specific? Rick Norwood ( talk) 17:10, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
Liberals generally favor laws against monopoly, pollution, and discrimination in hiring. Nobody I know of favors laws against private discrimination -- that is, if I choose not to have any friends who are different from myself, I'm free to make that choice. The only time discrimination becomes a legal issue is when the effect of the discrimination involves interstate commerce. Thus, motels in the South can no longer refuse to rent rooms to Blacks, and employees who conduct their business across state lines cannot refuse to hire Blacks. Note that there are still many "social clubs" and country clubs, where the important business of the state is conducted, which exclude Blacks, women, and Jews.
As for the question of whether conservatives also favor regulating pollution -- some do and some don't, but the big-business conservatives spend a lot of money repealing regulations against pollution. For example, mercury pollution which lowers the IQ of children is now common, thanks for lowered standards pushed through by conservatives. Rick Norwood ( talk) 13:36, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
Singwaste ( talk) 02:04, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
After reading the Encyclopedia Britannica Online article, and thinking about other books and articles I've read, I think the best approach is to state what social liberals believe and state what classical liberals believe, without going into the question of what these groups do not believe. I'm going to edit the lede accordingly.
Singwaste: I've seen other attempts to move discussion of the issues in an article off the talk page of that article, and in my experience, they don't work well. What often happens is that the disussion fragments, with one group on the new page and another group, arriving to the discussion late, making the same points on the article's talk page. It seems to me best to keep the discussion in one place. Many Heads and I are reasonable people, and are resolving our differences by rational discussion and by quotations from sources. Rick Norwood ( talk) 13:45, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
In response to a claim that liberalism does not advocate equality.
The foundational documents of liberalism stress both freedom and equality. "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal..."
We know those high ideals were expressed by a man who owned slaves, and that while we are much closer to true equality today, we still have a way to go. Still, one of the two principles that unite liberals is the idea of equality, in the sense of equal rights. The liberal movement has consistently been in that direction, with equality for Negros first, then for women, maybe someday for homosexuals.
By equality, I mean equality before the law -- obviously all men are not equal at birth, but the law should not favor those born with greater advantages. Sometimes equality and freedom conflict. My freedom to own slaves conflicts with the slave's equality under the law. But more often the two ideals are complementary. My equal rights give me the freedom to walk down the sidewalk without the law telling me I must step into the gutter to allow a better man to pass.
Rick Norwood ( talk) 14:31, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
Affirmative action is a problem. By its nature, affirmative action favors white Christians over better qualified Asians and Jews, and Blacks over better qualified Whites. It ought to be done away with, on liberal principles. But people who are pragmatic accept that ending affirmative action would result in the distruction of a major American resource, our Ivy League universities. Without affirmative action, the next Freshman class at Harvard, Yale, and Princeton (not to mention M.I.T.) would be entirely Asian. Since the power elite in America are not going to admit that many Asians to the corridors of power, no matter how qualified they are, the result would be a loss of influence, and the sons of presidents and CEO's would simply move down the list until they found a university that was mostly white, with a resulting loss of prestige for the "Ivy League" -- now the "Asian and Jewish" -- schools. Meanwhile, the number of Black's in top schools would drop into the single digits, and instead of the rich and powerful in America being 99% White, they would be 100% White. You may or may not like that idea, but is it worth destroying Harvard and Yale to achieve? Rick Norwood ( talk) 14:03, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
This is not a chat room, so I hope the point of this discussion is to find common ground to work toward a better article.
The Constitution of the United States, in listing the reasons why the United States was founded, includes "to promote the general welfare". The idea is not that hard to understand -- a person who is out of work, or diseased, or ignorant, is a threat to the welfare of the nation. Everyone benefits from jobs, health care, and education. Just look around the world, at those nations who provide for their poorer citizens, and those nations who do not, and you tell me where the most freedom is -- not to mention the greatest prosperity. Rick Norwood ( talk) 22:03, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
The difference is that Libertarians claim an ideal "Original liberalism" that never existed. Modern American and European and Japanese and Canadian and Australian liberals point to a system of free and open government that has been the most successful on the planet. Rick Norwood ( talk) 23:42, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
Some people use the phrase "classical liberal" to mean "libertarian". The proper usage would mean followers of John Locke, Adam Smith, and Thomas Jefferson. Your usage seems to mean "opposition to a graduated income tax". If I've misunderstood you, please let me know the sense in which you are using this often misused phrase.
If you do use the phrase to mean opposition to a graduated income tax, then I must point out that Adam Smith, who is usually considered a classical liberal, understood why a graduated income tax was good for the economy, and why our current income tax structure, in which the poor pay a greater percentage of their income in taxes than do the rich, is bad for the economy.
Equality, in this case, can mean two things. It could mean that everyone, rich and poor alike, should pay $3000 a year in taxes (budget divided by population). Or it could mean that everyone, rich and poor alike, pay 15% of their income in taxes (percent needed to balance the budget). The problem with the former model is that it leads to homelessness and starvation, which is bad for everybody. For reasons that a graduated income tax is better for the economy than either of these, I refer you to Wealth of Nations. Rick Norwood ( talk) 15:59, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
Ah, wellfare. Actually, welfare seldom gives free money to men who do no work these days, or to women unless they have children. They do give food stamps -- should people who are out of work be allowed to starve? And they do give money to help children. They also give limited unemployment benefits to people who loose their jobs.
I suspect that when you and I picture someone who gets financial help from the government, we have a very different picture. I picture an woman with a small child whose husband abandoned her, who works as a waitress, who has to pay taxes on her tips whether she gets any tips or not, and who needs food stamps to keep her child from starving. I imagine your picture is very different. Rick Norwood ( talk) 16:39, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
Your understanding of "equality" is different from mine. A bank robber might complain that he was not being treated equally with an honest citizen, but different circumstances demand different treatment. You and the welfare mother are treated equally if, in similar circumstances, you receive equal help. Rick Norwood ( talk) 23:32, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
The right to be highly taxed. The right to a monopolized health care. The right to a monopolized education system. The right to nationalized, and thus monopolized, industries. The right to pay for someone else' abortion. The right to go on welfare. The right to be in gun-free country/state (well, at least if you're a law abiding citizen).
Please, give me a break. Liberals support having the society work for you. They support no individual rights. The editors who have kept it there are responsible for destroying Wikipedia's neutrality.
The funny thing is, though, if your stance truly makes sense, you don't have to lie about it. Since you're obviously lying about liberalism... 71.204.61.136 ( talk) 00:08, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
Oh my bad. Obama will raise taxes, as he said. He might say it's on top 5% of the wealthiest but where do you think that money will come from? Your wallets. So because of him you will have less money. He also wants national health care. He wants to, instead of give school vouchers, give gov't school more money, something that has proven to be completely ineffective in improving students achievements. Many liberals have wanted nationalized industries (or ones highly controlled by gov't) and praise them all the time (New Deal, anything with Jimmy Carter." Obama supported an act where gov't would pay (you would pay) for someone who wanted an abortion. He also supported everything he could to make purchasing/carrying a loaded firearm impossible, so he is anti-gun. These aren't claims. This is solid fact. I could not make a list this bad with republicans that would be this anti-individual. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.204.61.136 ( talk) 00:59, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
No, because of Obama I will have more money. And so will you. Your "solid facts" are memes you've picked up from conservative propaganda. Their goal is to convince the poor to vote in favor of the rich, instead of in their own self-interest. If they were "solid facts", you would be able to document them, and they would properly form part of this article. Rick Norwood ( talk) 21:28, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
Everything I just said has been preached by Obama himself, and can also be proven by looking at his voting record. There is no need to document it. Do I need to document that he was the most liberal Senator as well? These facts have nothing to do with a propaganda machine. Republicans don't even ahve propaganda machines because you don't need propaganda to achieve individual rights whereas you do need it to set laws that take rights away from people (such as the ones mentioned in my earlier paragraph). There is nothing liberals support that gives more power to the individual. Actually, legalization of drugs, keeping abortion legal (but not make the gov't pay for it), and allowing anyone to be married are the only liberal rights I would support bc they give power to the individual but laws that take your money away and drive away incentives for entrepreneurship and even make it hard for you to arm yourself (wtf?) are anti individual. Therefore, this article should be changed so readers know that liberals, or at least liberal in America, are for bigger gov't and against individual (it's impossible to be for both). 71.204.61.136 ( talk) 00:47, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
This page claims that the USA was the first liberal state, based on "all men are created equal(1); that they are endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights; that among these are life(2), liberty(3), and the pursuit of happiness)4); that to insure these rights, governments are instituted among men(5), deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed(6)." 86.85.230.207 ( talk) 17:41, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
But this is pretty much just a rewritten version of the opening words of the Dutch Act of Abjuration. 86.85.230.207 ( talk) 17:41, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
"As it is apparent to all that a prince is constituted by God to be ruler of a people, to defend them from oppression(3) and violence(2) as the shepherd his sheep; and whereas God did not create the people slaves to their prince(1), to obey his commands(3), whether right or wrong, but rather the prince for the sake of the subjects(5) (without which he could be no prince)(6), to govern them according to equity(1), to love and support them as a father his children or a shepherd his flock(4), and even at the hazard of life to defend and preserve them(2)." [2] 86.85.230.207 ( talk) 17:41, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
I have trouble with the "first liberal state" claim for which no page number is cited in the source. Who was second or third? Were the thirteen colonies illiberal until 1776 or were they liberal from their settlement? In what years did the UK or Holland become liberal? I think it would be more accurate to state that they were the first country to have a written constitution based on liberal principles. The Four Deuces ( talk) 23:20, 14 February 2009 (UTC)
There are no references for the definition given of "liberal conservatism". Every mention I have found of it is of conservatives who have have accepted the liberal state, e.g., English Tories who accepted the 1688 Revolution. The Liberals in Australia did not consider themselves, "liberal conservatives', which is why they called themselves liberals, not conservatives. See Ideologies (1996), Larry Johnston, p. 95, but the concept is described in many other books as well. The Four Deuces ( talk) 11:08, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
This section cites no sources and is OR. Post-war Social Democratic governments did nationalize companies, but so have other types of governments. There is debate whether this was done for ideological or practical reasons. However, large-scale nationalization is not part of any current social democratic party's platform. The Four Deuces ( talk) 14:57, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
As there were no comments, I have made the changes. The Four Deuces ( talk) 19:09, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
At the end of the intro is the statement:
All Libs are idiots. they believe in murder, and they love muslims. they are what cause the people in 9/11 to suffer.
Obviously someone was acting out of immaturity and added it to be negative. I feel it should be removed but didn't know if it needed to be discussed first. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.215.237.220 ( talk) 05:03, 13 December 2006 (UTC).
I agree this is a biased ignorant clearly American statement that needs to be removed immediately.
I did not know exactly what liberalism was and I was still left wondering what it meant after reading the first few sentences in this article. I had to look elsewhere for a better definition. I think the introduction needs to be re-written. yettie0711 ( talk) 17:29, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
It would help if you explained more fully what you do not understand. Liberalism supports individual liberty: freedom of speech, freedom of religion, freedom of assembly, and the right to vote in open and fair democratic elections. Rick Norwood ( talk) 14:29, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
E2a2j: there is an article Liberalism in the United States, but I think the real problem is that for an American to understand liberalism is like a fish trying to understand water. American society is so liberal that liberalism permeates the way we think and everything we do. To see that, you would need to live for a year in an absolute monarchy, or under a dictator, or where religious law was the law of the land. When you returned to America, then you would know what liberalism is. Rick Norwood ( talk) 19:14, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
All liberals, as well as some adherents of other political ideologies, support some variant of the form of government known as liberal democracy, with open and fair elections, where all citizens have equal rights by law. Not all liberals, this is plain obvious. Not all liberals support any kind of democracy - some believe in enlightened monarchy or dictatorship..., just to name two examples. Those are not contraditory to liberalism, they might not be practical, but there are people who belive in them.
Second, almost no liberal believes that every citizien should have equal voting rights - immature, mentally ill etc. people, while being citiziens, have their laws restricted.
Third - the word equal, and earlier equality, is used in first paragraph. It is ambiguous - does it mean every voter has one vote? Because it might mean you get as many votes as you can pay for, or as intelligent you are.
Now, a bit of OR, but it's important. Liberalism is about believing that every human being has the law to be free, and that this freedom is definable. Now, nobody who is truly liberal, believe that any two people have law to force anything on one fellow men, just because of them being majority in this situation. That's why democracy is more of practical attempt to create liberal state, rather then the goal of liberalism itself. And i myself support democracy, but not practical examples, like European Union or United States of Americe - i believe this can be done better, more liberal. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.61.58.183 ( talk) 12:34, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
Liberals do not believe in socio-economic equality, or equality of condition. Socio-economic equality is NOT a political goal of liberalism. Liberalism believes in equality of opportunity and equality under the law; therefore we should define what type of "equality" the liberals support. "Equality" is a vague term that can describe many things and it could be confused as equality of condition and a form of socialism to a reader who doesn't know what liberalism is. This is why it should be written "equality under the law" and not just equality. Liberals think all men should be equal under the law. But all men cannot be equal in socio-economic life. Rick, answer this by next week or I'm going to modify that sentence. Ithaka84 ( talk) 01:49, 28 March 2009 (UTC)
No, because it limits to two areas a much broader concept. You could, I suppose, add a disclaimer that liberals do not claim that people are equally pretty or equally good ice skaters, but everybody understands that already, so it would clutter up the lede. Rick Norwood ( talk) 12:48, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
While liberals have owned slaves, I don't know of any liberals who "promoted slavery". Jefferson, for example, as a liberal wrote against slavery, while as a spendthrift he couldn't afford to give up the slaves that allowed him to pay his debts. As with many of us, there was a big difference between what he promoted and what he actually did.
As for what "classical liberals" think, one problem with the article is that people with very different views claim descent from classical liberalism (much as both the Democrats and the Republicans claim to be the party of Lincoln).
However, this emphasis on "equality under the law" entirely misunderstands what "all men are created equal" means. The assertion here (which nobody ever understood to mean that all people are born equally smart or equally intelligent) is that all people have equal value, not just before the law, but in every other way. That it is not socially acceptable for a well born man walking down the sidewalk to push a low born man into the ditch. Never mind whether it is legal -- is it admirable? Rick Norwood ( talk) 12:24, 5 April 2009 (UTC)
Thanks for the information, The Four Deuces. I did not know that Locke defended slavery. Rick Norwood ( talk) 13:29, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
Adam Smith's support for heavy taxation of the wealthy was explicit, not tacit. On the other hand, I don't know what tax rate he considered "heavy", just that he understood that those who benefit most from a society should expect to bear most of the cost.
This section has gotten too long. Let's start a new section for future comments. Rick Norwood ( talk) 15:22, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
You evidently think liberals are unable to clearly state their beliefs. You are wrong.
Liberals believe in freedom. We believe that freedom is only possible under good government, that a weak government leads to anarchy, and so we willing pay our taxes, as the price of freedom and prosperity. We believe that when citizens are healthy and educated, everyone benefits. We believe that extremes of poverty lead to crime and corruption, and that in the long run is is both more economical and more humane to relieve poverty than to keep a large percentage of the poor behind bars. We wish conservatives would stop lying about us, but we will defend to the death your freedom to do so. Rick Norwood ( talk) 20:18, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
UberCryxic:
Anyone who opposes slavery favors freedom and is to that extent a liberal. But in religion Wilberforce was a conservative, and opposed slavery because it was against the teachings of Christ. It is especially important, in controversial articles such as this one, to be discriminating and informed in our judgments and moderate in our tone. Rick Norwood ( talk) 14:52, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
Didn't know there was a recent movie about Wilberforce. What's the title? Rick Norwood ( talk) 15:24, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
Thanks for the info. I've added it to my Netflix queue. Rick Norwood ( talk) 19:54, 17 April 2009 (UTC)