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Both Pinochet and the Shah of Iran were installed as a result of American-organised coups, so cliams of neoliberal policy may be suspect. True neoliberalism is primarily concentrated in the UK and the USA.
Jmabel | Talk 20:53, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
For me the paragraph on Liberal internatonal relations theory. I would like to see references before we can keep this paragraph in the article. I am not yet convinced that this paragraph belongs in the article. Electionworld 22:43, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
If it is taught in college, a textbook reference should be easy to add. Rick Norwood 14:45, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
I'm not sure I understand your question. International relations is a phrase in common use in the US. By "liberal" ideas about international relations, a person could mean anything from "respect for the rights of other nations and multilateral rather than unilateral intervention" to, at the other extreme, "surrendering the sovereignty of the US to the UN and having George W. Bush tried as a war criminal". (I don't think anybody really holds the latter view -- well, not many people, anyway. Maybe Harry Bellafonte.)
In American International Relations courses Liberal IR theory still carries abit of what is now the classical view of liberalism. Liberal IR theory focuses on the state as a primary actor but power is not the main concern, if they do calculate power they do so by including factors such as economic strength rather than just manpower and military might. Liberals do not focus on war, which they view as an interuption between peaceful relations but on other transactions between states, such as diplomacy or trade (mostly trade). Original Liberal IR theorists viewed good trade relations as a positive means of achieving peaceful relations among states. Notably free trade theorists who believe free trade will lead to world peace. Old school liberal theorists, such as Kant, never came out and said it is economic freedom that brings about peace, but did set out to set up the conditions upon which a peaceful world might be achieved.
American liberals (left wingers) tend not to be IR Liberals but a mix between IR realists (pessimists), IR Marxists, IR Feminists, and American liberals (left wingers in academia) really love constructivism.
(Gibby 17:29, 11 January 2006 (UTC))
it only correlates if your definition of political liberal is the same as ir liberal aka it must be classical liberal...which is what liberal really means anywho (Gibby 05:24, 12 January 2006 (UTC))
I agree with including it (possibly because it's currently part of my course.) I'll have a root around in my books after I finish my exam period (I should actually be revising at the moment....but I got distracted. Slizor 10:51, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
There is a difference between the political ideology of liberalism and the actual root definition of liberalism. Political ideology liberalism is an ideology that advocates strong government control and security over the economoy but limited control on moral and individual issues. The first paragraph states that liberalism has to do with free market economics, private enterprise, and capitalism, which is not linked to political ideology. There needs to be clarification on these differences.
This article may need a rewrite. It looks like this article relates more to libertarianism than liberalism, two different political ideology. (related only in social and moral issues). Zachorious 05:33, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
Yes I am not doubting classic liberalism for free market economics but many modern liberals are not. This should be clarified. Zachorious 22:43, 12 January 2006 (UTC) .
Lucidish, I'm not saying all social liberals are against the free market. It is just that in the Western countries like the united states classic liberalism is actually far closer libertarionism. So the social liberals, at least in some Western countries are actually libertarions. Many social liberals tend to support strong government control over the economy but I am not saying this a norm or anything.
Electionworld I will add the clarification along with the addition. Zachorious 07:30, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps more attention to be paid to the meaning of "liberal" as the word is used in the USA. It is, after all, a large and significant country. It would be fairer to say that the word has a meaning that varies regionally, rather than simply gloss over the American meaning as though everyone in that country is somehow mistaken about the real meaning of the word. We don't want to fall into the Etymological fallacy. In the USA, policies such as rigid gun control and support for anti-vilification laws, which by any reasonable definition could be considered to restrict freedom, are considered to be liberal.
To provide contrast to this, the leader of Australia's major conservative party (which is in fact called the Liberal Party) can say without paradox or irony that his party is the trustee of the two great traditions of liberalism and conservatism. ( http://www.pm.gov.au/news/speeches/speech1554.html) Ordinary Person 14:02, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
I'd like to note that the difference between (classical) liberalism and libertarianism is above all a difference of degree, not substance. Liberals and libertarians agree on fundamental principles, but liberals are more moderate, and libertarians are more radical. Libertarians oppose any and all government intervention in just about anything, while liberals wish to cut down existing levels of government intervention without necessarily going all the way to minarchism. To put it another way, liberals want less government, whereas libertarians want minimal government. -- Nikodemos (f.k.a. Mihnea) 11:48, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
"Classical Liberalism" is a slightly amorphus term as it evolved over many many years. The furthest that Political Classical Liberalism went in terms of negative rights was in J.S. Mill's On Liberty - but On Liberty also contains some notions of positive rights as well. With Economic Classical Liberalism it would have to be The Wealth of Nations, but even that expressed some reservations about the extent to which a market can effectively operate. To argue that Libertarianism is an extention of "Classical Liberalism" is to ignore some very serious concerns of Classical Liberals. By the original argument it would also be possible to argue that Anarcho-Capitalism is not qualitatively different, but ideas just taken to an extreme. And Gibby, evolution is not necessarly perversion. Slizor 10:48, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
Does more government go with more freedom, or not. Depends on the circumstances. I have more freedom because the government provides a police force, to protect me from criminals. I have more freedom because the government provides an army, to protect me from invasion. Sometimes more government means more freedom, sometimes less. Right now, we have more government that ever, in terms of spending. And yet, some conservatives say we also have too much freedom, and need even more government to make sure that we don't ease the pain of dying or smoke pot, and to make sure our children pray in school, to whatever God is officially approved by politicians in Washington. Rick Norwood 15:41, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
It seems both this and the Conservatism article were written by a liberal. They are both grossly distorted and everyone here knows it. Liberals for small government??!! I thought this was a place for facts, not propaganda. Conservatives are like communists?!? Not in THIS reality. Someone please fix these articles or you will be blatently showing bias. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 208.191.226.140 ( talk • contribs) .
OK, I think it need highlighting in the introduction that we are dealing with a range of irreconciliable ideologies, albeit ones with common origins. Grant65 | Talk 04:13, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
Before people disagree with Hogeye's edit remember that liberals originally believed that freedoms which modern liberals take for granted were freedoms generated and protected by growing economic freedom. Thus, while many countries retain many political freedoms they have turned their back (to some extent) on many economic freedoms that granted them their current liberty. Whther you believe that or not is irrelevant that was the theory. (Gibby 04:26, 16 January 2006 (UTC))
(written in reply to "Before people disagree with Hogeye's edit remember that liberals originally believed that freedoms which modern liberals..." post above by Gibby)
We have to take in mind that the Oxford Manifesto is the basic document of the Liberal International, a world organization of liberal parties and groups, in which economic liberal and social liberal parties work together. It clearly represents mainstream liberalism as it developed after WW II. I agree with Hogeye in so far as it is not a classical liberal manifesto. The Costarican Libertarian Movement as a member party of the LI accepts this documents. I spoke with a representative of that party, who made also clear that their political programme became less dogmatic (my words) libertarian. Electionworld 07:17, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
I've restored the older version of the introduction, which has stood for a while now. I understand that for libertarians, the only important freedoms are economic freedoms, but that view belongs in the article on libertarianism, not here.
It is also a quixotic battle, since there has never been freedom from taxes in any developed country, and it is unlikely that there ever will be freedom from taxes in the future. In the US today we have an astonishing degree of economic freedom -- though the right to buy congressmen has been recently challenged. Rick Norwood 15:34, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
It is interesting to see that as far as I know in direct democracies often taxation legislation is exluded from referenda. Since most liberal democracies are more or less representative democracies, I would say it is up to the legislature as representative of the citizens to modify taxation. Electionworld 07:22, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
The text contains the following statement:
I believe this is not the most precise statement that can be made about the comparison, and thus has the effect of being overly-critical of modern liberalism. I believe that it would be more accurate if it read:
While there may be other minority views out there, I believe mainstream modern liberalism does not generally advocate the forcible taking of life, or of liberty (outside of economic restrictions) in order to provide such material well-being. Also, the right to property is generally respected by mainstream modern liberals when it comes to outright confiscation of property, as opposed to government taxation (or perhaps regulation). Finally, it is worth clarifying that mainstream modern liberals typically have as a goal and premise that the provision of material well-being is for all citizens/persons/residents, rather than for some subset of them (although in practice, the recipients of government aid tend to be poor people, because they are the ones who don't already have the minimal level of economic well-being).
I will make this change, unless there develops a consensus to the contrary, or I am otherwise convinced not to. Thesmothete 04:02, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
The first line needs to be modified to eliminate the erroneous claim that liberalism "strives to maximize liberty." This is POV because it endorses the utilitarian point of view (as opposed to the natural rights point of view.) Since liberalism originated with the natural law viewpoint (Locke), and natural law theory dominated until after Mill, this is a major error. There is a huge philosophical difference between don't violate anyone's rights and maximize rights in society, possibly at the expense of any particular individual's rights). The old lynch-mob example underlines this difference. I will now substitute "liberty is the primary political value." Does anyone know the original source of "liberty ... primary political value?" Hogeye 20:18, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
Found it! A: Lord Action. "Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end." Hogeye 20:32, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
There are actually two ways to set up this model. They are outlined by Robert Nozick, and referred to as the "utilitarianism of rights" and the side-constraint view.3 The first, "utilitarianism of rights," replaces maximization of social utility with minimization of violations of rights in the model. According to Nozick, "This ... would require us to violate someone's rights when doing so minimizes the total (weighted) amount of the violation of rights in the society."4 This is true because the rule calls for a minimization of a weighted aggregate. For example, whether or not the small-town sheriff gives up an innocent person to an angry but mistaken lynch mob depends upon how many, and how important, are the rights violations exhibited by the mob in acting out their frustration. The second alternative incorporates side-constraints to determine what actions may be done: "Don't violate constraints C. The rights of others determine the constraints upon your actions."5
I think you misunderstand the natural rights point of view when you write that it implies "the negative right to keep your money is more important that the positive right of the poor to food." On the contrary, the right to life and the right to the fruits of your labor are both equally non-violable in the natural rights view. The difference between the natural rights view and the other view is in the interpretation of "right to life." Seen as a negative right, it means that others should not coercively prevent you from life-sustaining action. Seen as a positive right, it means that someone should provide you with the goods required for living. To negative rights theorists, that amounts to a right to enslave, since those goods must be created by other men. Tradeoffs are never necessary in a negative rights system; if two apparent rights conflict, then at least one must be counterfeit. Hogeye 21:49, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
I have no idea what's going on here. Utilitarianism has to do with maximization of happiness, not liberty. You can be a deontologist and seek to maximize liberty. Lucidish 02:44, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
Shorter titles are an improvement. Rick Norwood 13:37, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
Seeing several errors in grammar and capitalization in a recent edit, I began to make corrections. As I went on, I found more and more examples of repetition and long-windedness, where different people at different times had inserted ideas they considered important into the article in several different places. I've tried not to leave anything out. I've also tried to keep the article from saying the same thing twice. Rick Norwood 23:00, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
In the text there is a paragraph with the following text:
Both Nikodemos and I deleted the italic part. KDRGibby readded this text and argued: yes we do, milton friedman is a constant reminder of how certain segments of liberals are completely wrong on economics and history...he's cited and shall stay. I do not think we need this text on Friedman. Friedman is mentioned in the text some times. it is not an article about FriedmanI have a problem with KDRGibby's argument why this citation should be in: that argument is clearly not neutral (certain segments of liberals are completely wrong) and I have a problem with he's cited and shall stay. Since when is KDRGibby the one who decides. Before I re-delete this citation, I would like to know if there is a general feeling that this citation is a relevant addition to the entry. 159.46.248.230 14:55, 3 February 2006 (UTC) (=Electionworld)
Yes it is necessary, many modern American liberals, and modern leftists, socialists, and communists paint the industrial revolution as a time of increasing poverty and hardship. This simply is not true. I can't say it alone because you socialists will demand a source... Friedman is that source, now you want to delete him outright, which makes room for deleting other material you find objects to your own beliefs. It must stay. When citing a source, the source does not need to be neutral. Start understanding that EW!!!! (Gibby 15:08, 3 February 2006 (UTC))
One person not only disagreed with that "remark" but demanded a citation for it as well. This person, and many others, as I stated before, believe the 19th century to be a period of increasing poverty. This simply is not the case. Friedman is the citation that covers this line of (correct) reasoning. I'm not arguing a thesis I'm citing a source for a line of though contradictory to populist beliefs. It should stay. (Gibby 19:15, 3 February 2006 (UTC))
"not more poverty" "instead" "more visible (poverty)" (I agree with this part, and this part was not deleted.) But the sentence continues: "many" "experienced" "increase". This neither follows from nor reenforces the first part. For example, it would be perfectly possible for the average standard of living to decrease while many people experienced an increase in their standard of living.
He is right, but thats not even what the sentence or article is saying...its giving his view...which just happens to be correct. (Gibby 21:44, 3 February 2006 (UTC))
No, I'm afraid you're missing the point. What Friedman is saying, which is factual is that you (using your own game) have an island with 1000 people on it. Every one starts out with $100 but 10 people who have $1,000. A few years of liberalism and those 10 people move up to $10,000, 700 people move up to $1,000 and the other 290 stay at $100 (or there around).
Milton Friedman is telling us that societies wealth is growing, that many people are increasing their wealth, but there have been a few people who did not increase their wealth as far as others, if at all. They did not get worse off, they just became more visible.
You are assuming that many got worse off, THIS DID NOT HAPPEN. THis is the revisionism and the logical economic failures Friedman attempts to address through such a statement about the poor becoming more visible not that there were more poor as a result of industrialization. Others assume that wealth is a zero sum game, which your game insinuates, THIS IS NOT TRUE. Zero sum games imply fixed wealth (which your game mathematically doesnt even add up too, thanks for playing though!) but Wealth has no fixed amount, it is always changing, and under capitalism, growing a vast majority of the time.
The milton friedman addition is to address false and falable beliefs like your own. (Gibby 07:08, 4 February 2006 (UTC))
BernardL 13:46, 4 February 2006 (UTC) Your arguments represent an attempt to apply arguments appropriate to an established system to a period of radical, in fact civilizational, disruption of the social order. There was massive deruralization and social dislocation and exploitation that is well documented. It is not only a matter of there being more visible poor, but rather the social dislocation created genuine casualties (not just poverty), and for many a loss of traditional livelihoods and cultures. I think one should not be so insensitive to the casualties in this process by treating them as mere statistics. Traditionally many leftists have emphasized that the industrial revolution was in fact a double-edged sword, with both progressive and destructive elements on a massive scale.
From E.P.Thompson, The Making of the English Working Class:
" I am seeking to rescue the poor stockinger, the Luddite cropper, the 'obsolete' hand-loom weaver, the 'Utopian' artisan, and even the deluded follower of Joanna Southcott, from the enormous condescension of posterity. Their crafts and traditions may have been dying. Their hostility to the new industrialism may have been backward-looking. Their communitarian ideals may have been fantasies. Their insurrectionary conspiracies may have been foolhardy. But they lived through these times of acute social disturbance, and we did not. Their aspirations were valid in terms of their own experience; and, if they were casualties of history, they remain, condemned in their own lives, as casualties.
Our only criterion of judgement should not be whether or not a man's actions are justified in the light of subsequent evolution. After all, we are not at the end of social evolution ourselves. In some of the lost causes of the people of the Industrial Revolution we may discover insights into social evils which we have yet to cure. Moreover, the greater part of the world today is still undergoing problems of industrialization, and of the formation of democratic institutions, analogous in many ways to our own experience during the Industrial Revolution. Causes which were lost in England might, in Asia or Africa, yet be won." BernardL 13:46, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
Bernard, I think your affair with traditional and cultural issues is bacwards. If we were so worried about such petty things as traditions most of us would be sheep farmers. You are right to say that there was much social upheaval. Technology made farm productivity high, competition fierce, and the need for farmers low. This technolgoical innovation forced farmers out of work and into the cities. THIS WAS A GOOD THING!
Technological innovation also put many buggy whip producers out of work... wooden wheel makers telephone operators abbacus makers
the list goes on and on
if the there was no upheaval and job distruction we would not move forward. If we sat back and protected every existing job not only would innovation stop moving us forward, we'd lose all incentive to innovate! This distruction is the economies way (the invisible hand) moving resources around to their newer highest valued use!!!
You are looking at things backward. Protecting existing jobs, existing competitors, and traditions is regressive and bacward looking. (Gibby 19:42, 4 February 2006 (UTC))
"Social liberals such as John Dewey have argued that the industrial-scientific revolution remains a project in a state of stagnation, whose full promise remains far from fulfilled. Accordingly this stagnation is explained as the "rerouting of enlightment advancements for merely private pecuniary gain, for the inheritence and accumulation of private properties & private powers" which "drained and continues to drain liberalism of an otherwise promising career."[ [2]]"
I cut out the paragraph above, recently added to the article, for the following reasons. The paragraph says that "John Dewey" ... "argued" (past tense) "that" ... "remains" (present tense). What Dewey said may apply to the present day, but he cannot have said it about the present day. Second, the quote is, presumably, by Dewey, but the paragraph does not really say this, and the footnote, instead of referencing the original source, references an article about that sourse in which the references are not in standard form, making it difficult to find the source of the quote.
I hope the author of the paragraph will try again. Rick Norwood 17:40, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
Fair enough, I was being a tad too lazy. I'll try another attempt to explain this point soon. BernardL 18:37, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
I'm not quite sure I even understand his complaint. Was Dewey saying that "consumerism" (as we now call it) was disrupting the advancement of the enlightenment?
That really smacks against liberalisms basic principles, of which consumerism has become a part. We dont produce for our own health, we produce so others purchase so that we can gain a living and therby consume for ourselves.
Is this a misquote, or is the quote taken out of context, or is Dewey by no means an economic liberal? (Gibby 19:11, 4 February 2006 (UTC))
As I thought... I have no problem with allowing a proper quote of the incorrect Dewey to be included. (Gibby 19:30, 4 February 2006 (UTC))
What I wanted to express was the point that Dewey made in several places to the effect that capitalism was in fact ill-adapted to modern industrial society, and that the best of liberal values could only be universalized and realized in fullest form if capitalism, which he referred to as "industrial feudalism", was replaced by a kind of participatory "industrial democracy" with oodles of public ownership and planning. For Dewey the industrial revolution was an unfinished revolution that had been coopted by pecuniary interests. I had a specific description of this ill-adaption in mind; it's buried somewhere in my paper archives. I hope I'll find it soon. (I think Veblen and Mumford and similar figures all shared similar correct views) BernardL 19:48, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
Are you saying that Dewey was not happy with how capitalism developed into a system whereby the government picked economic winners and losers, overregulated with central planning, and through the self interest of politicians made private enterprise public property (government buisnesses)? (Gibby 19:56, 4 February 2006 (UTC))
Apparently we are going to have an infinite (or at least unbounded) sequence of reverts between "a idiology" and "an idiology". Well, at least it keeps them off the streets. Rick Norwood 15:33, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
Your turn to revert Gibby, Thesmothete -- the "reference" he cites is a doctrinaire Libertarian site. Let me ask you, Gibby, would you let me get away citing a doctrinaire Marxist site? We need mainstream views here. In the article on Libertarianism, you can say anything you like. Rick Norwood 01:16, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
That is a cited published source. Rick, ignorance of the rules is no excuse to revert legitimate stuff. ( Gibby) http://www.mackinac.org/article.aspx?ID=1662 Check it out yourself. Legit, and allowable. Stop deleting material you disagree with, just because you disagree with. ( Gibby 01:21, 1 March 2006 (UTC))
Oh, its also a GD fact that there was no lassiez faire government at the time of the depression, it is also a fact that there was heavy government intervention before and during the depression. Ignorance is no excuse! ( Gibby 01:22, 1 March 2006 (UTC))
If they have cited material and proof to back it up, I've got no problem... But the problem is, your analogy is in no way comparable to the situation here. I actually have an article that is itself cited on the historical facts present at the onset of the GD... Your comparison is citation to no citation. It really does work. ( Gibby 01:32, 1 March 2006 (UTC))
OH yes, if they said... "The Christian Coalition believed that Bush acted with inspiration from GOD" there would be no problem... Again, like I said before, and repeating myself...your comparison is bad. ( Gibby 01:34, 1 March 2006 (UTC))
There is a source here, but I'm not sure where in this paper by Lawrence Reed he says that there were no laissez-faire states at the time. Gibby, which page? Lucidish 03:11, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
Try reading the whole thing but if that bugs you, read pages 3-7. (
Gibby
03:29, 1 March 2006 (UTC))
Good work, Electionworld. Rick Norwood 20:21, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
Liberalism does not imply democracy. There are whole books written on the subject. Majority rule can oppress minorities, is the basic arguement. So democracy is not the best form of government for liberalism. So can people please stop saying that it is!-- harrismw 07:33, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
The problem here is a failure to communicate. The public discourse has become so corrupted that people are careless in making a distinction between a democracy, a constitutional democracy, and a representative democracy = republic. This article really should say either constitutional democracy or republic when it means something other than an absolute democracy. Rick Norwood 14:42, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
While most liberals think that (representative) democracy is the best form of government to guarantee minority rights, it is often thought by liberals that a democracy (even a representative democracy) can oppress minorities. We see such situations where there is an ethnic minority being persecuted by an another ethnic majority. (Or religion, or whatever.) I think that so long as the article states that not all liberals desire democracy, then it is all right I guess. (See some of Heinlein's books for examples of "liberal" societies that are not democratic, and if I see stuff that implies that democracy is necessary for liberalism, I'll change it.) harrismw 03:08, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
Wilfried Derksen deleted the examples of a republic (France) and a constitutional monarchy (United Kingdom). I think the examples should remain, therefore I am asking for other opinions on this subject. Rick Norwood 14:16, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
Wilfried Derksen has put several examples in as footnotes. I appreciate the effort to compromise, but I'm under the impression that 1) Wikipedia frowns on the use of "e.g." and 2) footnotes should be used for references rather than examples.
I hope a third party will weigh in on this subject. Rick Norwood 14:00, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
I moved the examples to the text. The problem is not that I do not want examples, but I don't like them to be in the intro of the article. Electionworld = Wilfried ( talk 11:54, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
why don't you libs just go make a chat board somewhere, and leave the internet alone? you're passing off garabge like this as fact, when the reality is so much different.
"Broadly speaking, liberalism seeks a society characterized by freedom of thought for individuals,\"
That's a lie.
"limitations on the power of government,"
That's a lie.
"wealth,"
limitations on wealth? yep, socialist pigs, for sure.
" and religion, "
liberals fear religion
"the rule of law,"
liberals make up their own laws as they see fit.
Do not be baited by what has been written above, although it is a bit humurous. He was probably the same mature individual that wrote Liberalism is a mental disorder in the actual article. xcuref1endx
Wikipedia is a joke.
Don't confuse welfare liberalism with classical liberalism. The term "liberalism" has been usurped --largely in the U.S. However, there is still the term "classical liberalism" for those that hold the classic liberal philosophy of small government and individual liberty and opposition to the welfare state. RJII 01:32, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
This discussionis great! Haven't laughed so much in days! Banno 21:08, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
It almost sounds like Noam Chomsky (spelling?) except he would disagree with everything he said but other than that its the same cause everything is a big lie, lie, lie and he is bravely standing up and cutting through the bull. If you think the world is a lie and everyone around you is liar you will probably not be happy and that is why discussions like this happen because people who are unhappy get upset when other people seem okay. AgreeToBe
I think Chomsky is a bit too credulous -- like many academics, he is used to people who care about the truth. Also, I think his message would go across better if he talked about the good along with the bad -- as Al Gore does in his global warming lectures. There is, after all, plenty of good in the world. All you need to do to appreciate that is never watch television. Rick Norwood 15:45, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
People, this page is a terminological mess and an invitation for 'americocentrists' who simply can't understand the worldwide term 'liberalism' means something totally different from what they usually either curse or boast of. My proposal is to split this page into two clear disambiguated pages indicating what 'liberalism' stands for in both definitions, since what American usage means by 'liberalism' can't be even historically linked to the classical term anymore (remember that even communistoid individuals are currently being called 'liberal', and liking it!). These two definitions have been independently formed, and can't be related at all nowadays. This is confusing and can't go on. Let us make things clear on Wikipedia. Xemoi
First of all, 'liberal', in the current American psyche, including all of the media, is instantly associated with the left, be it of either a social-democratic, socialist, communist or green penchant. That is so obvious that it hardly needs any further 'evidence' from my part. Just prick up your ears and listen. Or read a newspaper, for god's sake! Or, better, read the countless complaints about the conceptual accuracy of this article from stupefied American editors. Anyway, it doesn't mean that the people using the term this way are wrong: as I said, <you> are wrong when you think both meanings are anything but two concepts apart that cannot be related anymore. The 'connections' between the definitions of 'liberalism' in both sides of the Atlantic have been null for quite some time now. Also, the alleged connection on the defense of "liberty" that you cite doesn't make sense, really, since the KINDS of freedom that European 'liberals' (who in the US would in fact be equivalent to moderate libertarians)and that American << left-wing> "liberals" defend are completely different: while the European libs argue for more ECONOMIC freedom along with some level of personal freedom, the American 'liberals' are more concerned with PERSONAL freedom (abortion, gay rights, immigration,anti-war, etc.) if any, while their economic policies are clearly and decidedly interventionist, with calls for ever more public spending! So, the types of 'liberty' both groups argue for are surely different. This is so easy to gauge, and so blatant. By the way, haven't you ever heard of the Nolan chart, or the Political Compass? Those would help make things clear. So I still believe this page has been clumsily developed in what regards terminological differences. Actually, what first urged me to do something about it is that the userbox about American users who define themselves as 'liberal' (that is,left wing - you can see that, if there's doubt yet, by the other userboxes in their pages) links to THIS article! If anything, THAT should be changed to the other article on 'liberalism' in the US. But with that common mistake you can see how things are confusing around here. One of the policies of wikipedia is to nominate and develop articles using the concepts and denominations that are more commonly used (and therefore most likely to be searched for), no matter what purists prescribe. So it's far from being a matter of "wrong" conceptions. There are two different and absolutely SEPARATE meanings, of two things that have in common just the name, arbitrarily defined for cultural reasons. AT LEAST there should be a clear note at the top of the page warning: "This article is about Liberalism in Europe; for the common American definition, see Liberalism in the United States"(or something of that nature), and all misleading links in wiki userboxes and articles should be accordingly redirected. Xemoi 22:24, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
You have been lied to so often, by people who have made a huge amount of money from their lies, that the lies now seem "obvious" and not in need of actual evidence. I will only ask you this. Was it the liberals who have put the United States nine trillion dollars in debt? Rick Norwood 00:01, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
(sigh) looks like someone has drunk too much of the kool-aid. Xemoi 01:10, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
Some sections here are somewhat too disproportionately heavy, such as "Revolutionary Liberalism", while the section on "Liberalism and Democracy", though dealing with a key aspect of the theory, is limited to one paragraph... E.Cogoy 23:19, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
I disagree. Democracy is very much cited as on the 'liberal' agenda throughout the article! And in the end, that's the same. As for revolutionary liberalism, the section may be improved, yes, but it's not that long.
Xemoi
01:19, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
The second sentence in the intro currently says:
Can someone provide a reference for liberalism seeking a society characterized in part by a limitation on the power of wealth, or at least explain what that is supposed to mean? Does the ability to hire a worker constitute an example of the power of wealth that liberalism seeks to limit? I know there are some people who are bothered by what the characterize as the power of wealth, but I've never encountered a reasonable definition of what that might be with respect to something that anyone would truly want to limit. In contrast, I understand what limits on government and religion means, and how to accomplish that (lower taxes, strong Constitution with well-defined individual rights, separation of Church and State, ...). The only "limitation" of the power of wealth I can conjure is through expansion of government power (taxation, regulation), which is contrary to liberalism. -- Serge 04:20, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
"...where political power is so limited..." Power is never limited but by an opposing power. The genius of the American constitution is that it pits the power hungry in constant battle against one another (checks and balances) instead of trying to limit or eliminate power entirely. Rick Norwood 22:26, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
The introduction states that all liberals believe that people have a right to life. However, in a strict libertarian society with no welfare whatsoever, people don't actually have a right to life -- if you can't provide for yourself, it's tough luck. (In contrast, if you are unable to protect your own property, you still have recourse to the legal system.) Does this part of the introduction need to be clarified? Cadr 15:46, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
By "right to life" the framers of liberal philosophy did not mean you might not starve to death, they only meant that the upper class could not kill lower class people at will. In those days, if an upper class gentleman out on a fox hunt trampled a peasant child under his horse's hooves, tough tooties. A modern example would be whether my economic freedom to dump toxic chemicals into your drinking water is limited by your right not to be killed by my toxic chemicals. Rick Norwood 16:44, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
Ah, in libertarian jargon. I try to stay away from libertarians as much as possible. There's a libertarian in one of the other talk pages who keeps calling me names, like "fool" and "stupid", but I find it best to ignore him. Rick Norwood 20:21, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
1. Let us not forget that this isn't an article about libertarianism, but about liberalism in its diverse forms. 2. Most liberals accept forms of taxation. The market liberal reform party of Estonia, which might be one of the most libertarian-like parties in Europe, wants low taxes, but not an abolition of taxes. 3. Most liberals favour regulation of monopolies and cartels. Is that limiting the power of wealth? Electionworld = Wilfried ( talk 07:33, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
Right to life eh? That's why most liberals are pro-choice right? LOL! PaladinWriter 21:25, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
This article has already been split several times. Liberalism in North America split off. Then Liberalism in North America split into Liberialism in the United States and Liberalism in Canada. Now we have a long list of various specialized articles on liberalism. I'm not sure what further split is now being suggested. Rick Norwood 23:55, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
Why?! well, here we go: some few sections here may be perfectly summarized, but this article /as a whole/ is 78!!kb (more than double the ideal size) and has no less than 29 sections. Split it OR make it pithy in order to comply with wikipedia standards. Xemoi 00:49, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
I agree with a split, whereby this would be the main article, and there would be at least articles articles on Early liberalism, Revolutionary liberalism, modern liberalism or political liberalism and classical liberalism. These articles would be added to the series. Is that a way. Electionworld = Wilfried ( talk 10:26, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
All in all not a bad article - but way to long. I would also agree that it should be split and (to Rick's point) trimmed to complement existing articles so as to be more of a guide/timeline from where readers can dive deeper into the turns and schisms Liberalism has undergone. Maybe something like: Rise of Liberalism (exiting the Reformation; great revolution and parliamentary government), Classical Liberalism (Locke to Mills; liberty focus; subjects to citizens), New/Progressive Liberalism (a la T.H. Green, Hobhouse, etc; intervention against inequities stemming from free markets; equality of opportunity), Modern Liberalism (Keynes, Roosevelt, Wavy Gravy, etc; New deal/welfare state; redistribution of wealth; equality of outcome). Just a thought. – Phocion 03:13, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
I created the article History of liberal thought. The present section of development of liberal thought can be summarized. I think this is in line with this debate. Electionworld = Wilfried ( talk 20:51, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
My insertion of "ostensibly" into the article by Rick Norwood was not entirely unexpected, and is also understandable. But I am left with a dilemna.
I truly do believe that the supposed greater tolerance of liberals is self-delusional, albeit almost always sincere. But in over 35 years of chewing political and policy fat with friends and acquaintences, I have come to the conclusion that liberals are no more "tolerant" of others than are conservatives. Indeed (as with conservatives), the more intense the beliefs, the less tolerant they become. Liberals are quite capable of becoming apoplectic when confronted with an opposing viewpoint. I would even suggest that conservatives (and—let us not forget—we are all forced by the breadth of this topic to generalize to an incredible degree) are, if not more accepting of opposing viewpoints, at least better able to engage in friendly debate.
So, in short, Rick, what makes liberals more tolerant? The fact that the Democratic party won't let pro-lifers within their own party address national conventions? That they oppose public Christian religiosity but not Muslim? I just think that this ostensible liberal tolerance is one of the great myths of political history. That's my two cents worth—not sure it's worth getting into a spat over. Unschool 01:49, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
I agree completely with the above ^. Deepdesertfreman 03:47, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
With over 10,000 scholarly citations, A Theory of Justice is one of the all-time most cited works in philosophy. Political Liberalism, which builds off the core ideas in TJ, is one of the most cogent statements on toleration. And yet in the entire article, Rawls gets only two tangential references.
I've read through all the comments above, and I think the fundamental problem is that people are looking at this article as an opportunity to make political statements (perhaps without recognizing it). It's bizarre, really. Political liberalism is not the liberalism of "liberal British/American politics." Insisting on any such connection is pointless. Why bother? It's just confusing.
To my mind, this article should be a neutral presentation of the core ideas in the liberalism of political philosophy, including Kant alongside Mill; Nozick alongside Rawls; and so forth. It need not deal with controversial contemporary political applications which, as they stand, are both unsophisticated and highly likely to incite contentious debate.
This goes especially for the entire "Contemporary Liberalism" section. To suggest that liberalism or "liberalism advocates" speak in a united voice about affirmative action, capital punishment, or the welfare state is patently silly. The entire section is a conflation of contemporary liberal politics with the article's earlier attention to political liberalism. Not only is the section terribly out of place, but it's also conclusory and simplistic. It informs readers of nothing worthwile (or at least nothing they couldn't pick up from a Democrat's campaign website). It really needs to go. (And I say this as someone sympathetic to contemporary liberal politics.)
I would suggest instead an article be structured according to subtopics within political liberalism, the varying viewpoints on which can be presented in clear juxtaposition.
How about something like:
Anyway, just some thoughts. Regardless, this article should stear clear of conflating "liberalism" of political philosophy with the "liberalism" of contemporary politics. It should, moreover, give its due to John Rawls--like him or not, he's one of the most cited philosophers of all time who's influenced political liberal thought immeasurably. (And, no, mere reference to the cheezy wiki on TJ won't cut it.) -- 71.235.99.75 21:35, 28 April 2006 (UTC)MBK-YLS08
I suppose I had two different points, which I should have posted separately. The first question is simply, where is Rawls? The solution is that someone has to take the time to write more on justice as fairness, and toleration generally, since these are critical strands in liberal thought.
The second point is that it would be inaccurate and disingenuous for contemporary political "liberals" to claim that their politics fit within "a synoptic view of liberalism across history" any more than any other mainstream political party of a liberal nation. America and most of the EU are liberal states, and insofar as the mainstream political parties in these countries endorse basic liberties like freedom of conscience and freedom of expression, they are all liberal. Hence, it's easy to see that liberalism relates as naturally to contemporary conservative politics as to contemporary liberal politics. (And, indeed, given the article's focus on the likes of Hayek and Freidman, the connection to "conservatism" is an even easier connection to make.)
Put more plainly, the term liberalism, as in liberal political thought, is simply not the same thing as liberalism, as in contemporary liberal politics. As such, it makes no sense whatsoever to equate liberalism as "an ideology, [and] philosophy," with any one contemporary American or Britich political party. Hence the section on "Contemporary liberal positions" is plainly inappropriate. -- 71.235.99.75 14:33, 1 May 2006 (UTC)MBK-YLS08
This Wiki article badly needs a section on the harmful effects of Liberalism on society! It is way too biased! PaladinWriter 21:27, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
RN to PW:Essentially, all Western nations, plus India and Japan, are liberal societies. So a section on the harmful effects of Liberalism would need to show ways in which people in Africa, China, and the Middle East are better off than people in the West. Maybe you could suggest a start. Rick Norwood 17:04, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
There are basically only two kinds of liberalism.
1: The freedom of the individual from domination and opression from rich people, priests, kings and rulers.
2: The freedom of rich people, priests, kings and rulers to continue to opress, dominate and use the poor and opressed people.
Everything else is mumbo-jumbo to support the second, reactionary type of liberalism, a reaction from the current upper class to the liberation movements of the masses of poor and opressed people to liberate themselves from different types of slavery.
There is definitely a need for multiple pages about Liberalism. (Roger)
How can liberalism conciliate hereditary status with monarchy? Typelighter 14:43, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
The supposed ceremonial way of monarchy isn't a reason to forget the reality of hereditary status and privilege among some groups of people within a monarchy. I recognize the differences between a constitutional monarchy and an absolute monarchy, but in any case the hereditary status is there. We should rewrite it carefully because this part of the article is very confusing and falls into evident contradictions. Typelighter 10:17, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
Really? Please enlighten.
In these three countries liberal parties have a long history, going back to 1848 in Germany and a few centuries more in Switzerland. Most educated liberals here will uphold the name of Adam Smith, freedom from oppression by a repressive government with high taxes and tariffs being their main political theme. In recent times in all three countries liberals (mostly educated business people) have come to represent the extreme right of the democratic political spectrum in most regards, which is reflected in the actual sitting order in parliament. Here is to say that taxation and social welfare in Germany is not comparable with taxation and social welfare in the US, with the ministry of health and social services comprising more than 30% of the overall budget. So while liberal parties in the German speaking countries are the only parties with a decided free market, pro-business and low taxation stance (including the so called Christian Conservatives that have just voted for the highest tax increase in post-war Germany), at the same time the head of the German liberal party is openly gay, posing with his "life-partner" for the cameras. The German liberals are definitely "pro-choice", anti-racist, pro gay-marriages, but they strongly resent "affirmative action", where they clash with the governing coalition.
Conclusion: Liberal in Europe seems to mean the near opposite of the meaning in the US! Wikipedia should at least point to this as an "alternative usage" of the term, that seams to stem from a different history. Hirsch.im.wald 07:46, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
I deleted the following text: Communist theory--though not practice--has also been found to have some basis in the writings of Marcus Aurelius in his Meditations. According to Marx, the notion of equality of the whole would create a society with equal rights for the whole. Marx even regarded communism as “liberalism in its purest sense.” Lenin, and other Soviet leaders latched on to this notion during the Russian Revolution. However, practice has shown the governments to be far from liberal. This section is unsourced, out of place (in the beginning of the article) and as far as I can not true and irrelevant. Communism and liberalism are antipodes, since communism starts with the collectivity, with class, and liberalism is based on the individual liberty. Electionworld = Wilfried ( talk 08:53, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
I really think this article is slanted in favor of the liberal political movement. The critique of liberalism is in desperate need of expansion. Also, I find it hard to believe that liberals are classified as in favor of free markets. Most of the liberals I know would be perfectly happy with communism and or socialism in our country. Deepdesertfreman 03:44, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
This sentence: Broadly speaking, liberalism seeks a society characterized by freedom of thought for individuals, limitations on power, especially of government and religion, the rule of law, the free exchange of ideas, a market economy that supports relatively free private enterprise, and a transparent system of government in which the rights of minorities are guaranteed.
covers a lot of ground. Where is the proof of, in which the rights of minorities are guaranteed.
Prove it or lose it. WP:OWN violation. Scribner 23:11, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
No, actually it won't, Rick. The speech wasn't referenced to liberalism. Don't get liberalism and American liberalism confused. Scribner 00:27, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
I don't understand your point, Scribner. American liberalism is not all of liberalism by any means, but it is a part, and any example will necessarily be from some part of the whole. Having said that, Electionworld's examples are probably better than mine. Rick Norwood 12:21, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
Most readers needs are better met by around 3 concise paragraphs, compared to 9 paragraphs for that section.-- Nectar 14:34, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
Shall the article titled Liberalism be changed into a disambiguation page that references articles like Classical liberalism, Social liberalism, American liberalism, etc.? Or should it be left as is (more or less)?
(Please vote/sign below with "# '''Support''' ~~~~" if you support a Liberalism disambiguation page, or with "# '''Oppose''' ~~~~" if you oppose it.
The opening sentence of this article is:
This is true for Classical liberalism, but is it true for all the "liberalisms" covered in this article? Consider the footnote/quote that is used as a reference: "'Liberalism' is defined as a social ethic that advocates liberty, and equality in general." (emphasis added). Is liberty the primary political value of liberalism, or is equality just as important? The answer is, I believe, it depends on what liberalism you're talking about. And that's the problem. Does it make sense to have an article about a concept for which we cannot even accurately describe in a general sense in a simple sentence? Still mulling it over... -- Serge 01:24, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
I voted oppose above, but now wonder if I should have. Since the word 'liberal' doesn't have any real meaning anymore, there is no way to start this article with one definition for liberalism. It starts out describing classical liberalism and goes straight into modern liberalism. The two are diametrically opposed in most ways. It makes the whole thing just an impossible task, because of the way this article is arranged. Sha nnon duck talk 06:38, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
Look to Wikipedia:Disambiguation
This is clear enough.
Often an article arises by one connotation. Afterwards autors arise in different connotations without to take notice of it. In the end one editor chip in that you need Wikipedia:Disambiguation against an opposition, of course.
So, if you want to write something in an other topic of a term then you may do it. It is your full right. The consequence is Wikipedia:Disambiguation. You must do it only this way. -- Irgendwer 08:43, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
I added the {{Contradict-section}} tag to the intro because the first sentence specifies the scope of the concept covered in this article:
Yet later in the intro the following assertion is made:
This contradicts the first sentence. If "liberty is the primary political value", then other values cannot take priority by definition. Is this article about the ideology which holds liberty as its primary value or not? Which is it? Trying to have it both ways is contradictory... If this article is about any ideology that values liberty, but not necessarily as the primary value, then it should cover everything from fascism to socialism and conservatism as well. All ideologies value liberty to some extent. What distinguishes classical liberalism from all other ideologies (including social liberalism, American liberalism, and any ideology that asserts "that government provision of some minimal level of material well-being takes priority over freedom from taxation") is that it consistently gives liberty priority over all other political values. So is this article about that concept (like the initial sentence claims) or not (like is claimed later in the intro)? -- Serge 08:13, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
RN to Bjsiders: Just finished reading a biography of Ben Franklin. He was liberal on some issues, conservative on others, as am I. But he was a liberal in opposing the claims of privilege on the part of the upper class, especially in Philadelphia, he was a liberal in respecting the value of honest hard work, and he was a liberal in opposing prudishness. He was a conservative in having deep doubts about social programs which, in the name of helping the poor, encourage shiftlessness.
RN to Intangible: You say liberals want more government. I say all politicians want more government: federal government involvement personal matters such as medical care, drug use, censorship of media, marriage, respect for the flag ... need I go on? Non-politicians generally want less government, but don't know how to get it. You focus on social programs, but a) there is a lot more to liberalism than that and b) conservative politicians vie with liberal politicians to see who can give away the most money (buy the most votes). Rick Norwood 14:39, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
I just went over the article and can see that the entire thing needs rewriting. This article is not based on simple fact like an encyclopedia article should be. It is confusing and is actually downright propagandized with strong socialistic influence. I will try and find the time to work on it. But like I said, the whole thing needs to be written all over again. Sha nnon duck talk 16:58, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
Generality is exactly what I'm suggesting we look into. Bjsiders 17:21, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
Look to the connotations in meriam webster dict. [6] -- Irgendwer 20:47, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
Rick, My changes were not an attempt to rewrite the article from Libertarian POV. I'm trying to explain the differences in concepts of liberty, and, hence, liberalism - one of which happens to be shared by libertarians. I'm not saying it didn't need some work, I know it did, but did you really have to revert the whole thing? -- Serge 23:26, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
Disputes in Wikipedia are settled by reasoned debate, not by "votes", with the excpetion of motions to delete an entire article. And even in that exceptional case, if the results are mixed, the article is kept, even if the majority vote to delete.
So, let's discuss. The fact that Lucidish supports your rewrite carries a lot of weight. Here is my view. It seems to me that the Libertarian view gets a lot of play in Wikipedia, because a number of Libertarians write for Wikipedia. But it is a minority view. I don't have any figures about how many Libertarians there are, but my guess is a few million, as compared with more than a hundred million worldwide who consider themselves liberal. That would make the libertarians only about ten percent of liberals. If my data is wrong, please let me know. I would like more information on the subject. Rick Norwood 13:43, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
I've attempted a rewrite. The jargon about negative rights and positive rights is not something most people are familier with, so I've tried to explain the various views of what constitutes "rights". Also, the new material at the beginning was repeated later on, so I've removed duplication. Let me know if this is an acceptable compromise between the two points of view. Rick Norwood 14:14, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
RN to Bjsiders: There are, of course, various strains of Libertarianism -- for example some would keep tax supported schools, others abolish them. I think few self-avowed liberals would go along with all of the Libertarian proposals, most would probably go along with some of them. Rick Norwood 20:10, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
Rather than go around and around and get absolutely no where, let's have a poll.
Here's my suggestion. Who's in favor of an article that states the differences of the term 'liberalism', as opposed to confusing the different historical usages of the word 'liberalism' and making it appear to be the same thing?
Support
Oppose
Find question incoherent
Bjsiders said this:
"Since the term "liberalism" means so many things to so many people, and those specific things have changed over time and been assigned new names, this article might be best off as a summary of each with links to more detail. "American liberalism" is unique from "Canadian liberalism," which is completely different from "Enlightment liberalism" which is distinct from "classic liberalism" which is not the same thing as "social liberalism," etc. What do you all think of something like that? The scope of a term like "liberalism" is like trying to write one article that fairly and accurately captures all of its facets is fairly ambitious and may even be impossible."
I am saying the same thing that Bjsiders said. Different ideas exist about the term 'liberalism', by varying groups of people, in certain historical times. The article tries to combine all these different ideas and portay them as if they were one and the same thing. That's all I'm saying. Is that more comprehensible to you?
Who is in agreement with Bjsiders of rewriting the article as a summary of each concept of liberalism with links to more detail? Sha nnon duck talk 18:58, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
Support please sign ~~~~
Oppose please sign ~~~~
Comments
The intro to the article has changed drastically since yesterday however, there is still a huge and deliberate tendency to confuse classical liberalism with modern liberalism, and the two couldn't be further apart.
this sentence is not necessarily true and it's leading: Classical liberals often strongly object to this kind of liberalism, asserting that the freedom of private property takes precedence over the personal freedom that depends on health, education, and a place to live; they claim that private charity does the job as well, or even better. Real classical liberals (Jeffersonians of that time) did not revere private property. The whole thing is a bit confusing to me even.
this is complete invention and mind warp Broadly speaking, most advocates of liberalism seek a society characterized by freedom of thought for individuals, limitations on coercive power, especially of government and religion, the rule of law, the free exchange of ideas, a market economy that supports relatively free private enterprise, and a transparent system of government in which the rights of minorities are protected. In modern society, liberals favour a liberal democracy with open and fair elections, where all citizens have equal rights by law and equal opportunity.
modern liberals do not like freedom of thought as evidenced in so many ways in the past century. i.e. the creating of terms like 'negative liberty' or with laws like 'hate crime' type laws.
modern liberals do not like limitations on coercive power. They always call for more government intervention, not less.
modern liberals like the additions of bi-laws which tend to confuse the constitutional law, similarly to the way right-wingers, like the subversion of constitutional law.
modern liberals like a transparent system of government in which the rights of minorities are protected, classical liberals advocate individual liberties per Thomas Jefferson.
This sentence also "In modern society, liberals favour a liberal democracy with open and fair elections, where all citizens have equal rights by law and equal opportunity." That's nice, but classical liberals, (the Jeffersonians) wanted equal rights for everyone also. Sha nnon duck talk 17:42, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
Most of what passes for public discourse these days commits the logical fallacy of black and white thinking. People root for the liberals or for the conservatives the way they root for their home town team. One form this team spirit takes is that conservatives find the nuttiest liberal thay can dig up, and say, "liberals believe this". And liberals love the conservative nut cases. The important issues: war, education, jobs, global warming, government power and taxation -- are really too important to be decided on the basis of which team you root for. Rick Norwood 13:29, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
This article is about liberalism in its various variations and the debate now seems to be part of the big American confusion about liberalism. Classical liberalism is a form of liberalism not very much adhered by liberal parties around the world. This article tries to find the common ground between liberal policies worldwide, therefore it often uses the ideas inside the [Liberal International] or other global or continental liberal organizations (like CALD or ELDR). The member parties all uphold liberty as there primary goal, but they differ about the degree of government intervention necesary to have a free society. Now I continue with my holiday. Electionworld = Wilfried ( talk 13:57, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
Actually, the American Democratic Party is a founding member of the Alliance of American and European Democrats, which is clearly Third Way center-left. Justice III 12:35, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
Actually that's not true. It's the corrupt rotten to core game in town that never worked, never will. Grassroots activism is the game in town that does work. The only one that ever did. Margaret Mead. Sha nnon duck talk 14:12, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
Is their any citation of someone who is not him- or herself a self-declared "classical liberal" using the term "classical liberal" uncritically as their term for the tradition of Hayek, von Mises, the Libertarians, etc.? - Jmabel | Talk 06:41, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
The point Jmabel makes is part of a larger issue. There are a number of articulate, energetic libertarians writing for Wikipedia who would like this to be a Libertarian encyclopedia. They believe, sincerely and strongly, that the libertarian view is the correct one, and edit articles accordingly.
Of course, libertarian views should be and are represented in Wikipedia. More problematic is the rewriting of articles, using jargon such as "positive rights", "negative rights", "classical liberal" and so on, to assert that 1) the founding fathers were all classical liberals and 2) so-called liberals who are not libertarian, that is, who assert the existance of positive rights, are not liberals at all. This is POV and is unacceptable, but it takes a lot of time and energy to keep this under control.
Examples of this activity are currently going on in American Liberalism and in Family Values. Sadly, negotiating or discussing issues has prove to be a waste of time. Because I've been able to work with conservatives in the past, I have tried for many months to compromise, rewrite, work with mediation, all to no avail. The demands of the libertarians are non-negotiable. I would appreciate any help that non-libertarians can offer. Rick Norwood 12:39, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
P.S. I just discovered the astonishingly badly written new article Classical Liberalism which begins (sic)
Rick Norwood 13:03, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
I'd help but I'm also a libertarian so my contributions can't be trusted, apparantly. I wonder if there are any other Wiki policies that any of us need to review. Bjsiders 14:27, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
Good, good. We've worked well on difficult subjects together before, I really thought your tone on the libertarian conspiracy was casting too wide a net. Bjsiders 14:54, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
Your edit has greatly improved the article. It flows much more smoothly, now. Rick Norwood 12:17, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
How's that debate going? Has a consensus been reached? The Serbian version of this article became a Featured Article, why can't ours? Who knows somebody who knows how to read Serbian? Xaxafrad 03:06, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
Did classical liberalism really advocate free public education? I know a few classical liberals, such as Benjamin Franklin, favored free publicn education, but was this belief generally held by classical liberals?
No, contrary to popular belief, Adam Smith, the most classical liberal of them all, was in favor of progressive taxation. Rick Norwood 18:34, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
Sounds pretty progressive to me, though I see how it could be read two ways. Read one way, it says the greater the ability, the greater the proportion they pay. Read the other way, it says the greater the ability, the greater their proportion is. The ambiguity arises from the fact that a proportion can either be a percentage or a percentage of some whole. Rick Norwood 19:57, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
Dear friends, this section describes modern liberalism. To consider these elements not to be part of modern liberalism is not right. I doubt that our classical liberal friends :-) would agree with progressive taxation. Electionworld = Wilfried ( talk 21:02, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
To Intangible: Please read the article that you pointed me to in your last summary:
Classical_liberalism
Classical liberalism is a political philosophy that supports individual rights as pre-existing the state, a government that exists to protect those moral rights, ensured by a constitution that protects individual autonomy from other individuals and governmental power, private property, and a laissez-faire economic policy.
When I type 'modern liberalism' into the search box it brings me to
social liberalism
Social liberalism is a political philosophy that emphasizes mutual collaboration through liberal institutions. Social liberalism, as a branch of liberalism, contends that society must protect liberty and opportunity for all citizens. In the process, it accepts some restrictions in economic affairs, such as anti-trust laws to combat economic oligopolies, regulatory bodies or minimum wage laws, intending to secure economic opportunities for all. It also expects legitimate governments to provide a basic level of welfare or workfare, health and education, supported by taxation, intended to enable the best use of the talents of the population, prevent revolution, or simply for the perceived public good.
Modern liberals want lots of government control. classical liberals did and do not. Modern liberals tend to favor group rights, shown in their advocacy for special privleges for minority groups. Classical liberals advocate individual rights. This is rather well known and indisputable. What is your problem with my edits? OceanDepths 13:20, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
The way to settle edit wars is not by reverting, but by citing sources.
I've looked through a number of social science dictionaries, and do not find any that use the phrase "social liberalism", which is all over Wikipedia. When I google "social liberalism" the top two sites are both on Wikipedia, the third is on amazon.com for a book called "Porn Generation".
The standard term for this idiology seems to be "social democracy". Let's use standard terms whereever possible. Rick Norwood 19:18, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
Rick to Electionworld. I respect your opinion, but the uses of words that I quoted were not my uses or your uses but, according to a number of sources, standard uses. I would think, rather than revert sourced material, you would at least supply one reference supporting Intangible's definition of the phrase. I quoted two Ph.D.'s, who say that social democracy is a form of liberalism. You and Intangible say it isn't. Does that settle the issue in your favor? Rick Norwood 00:27, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
Rick, see the next section. Electionworld = Wilfried ( talk 07:36, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
Just some examples from my own library: Jan van Putten in Politieke Stromingen (translated: Political currents); J.W. de Beus and others in De ideologische driehoek (The ideological triangle) and Klaus von Beyme in Parteien in westliche Demokratien (Parties in western democracies). Most political litterature makes a difference between liberalism as the ideology of individual liberty and social democracy as a (my words) moderate variant of democratic socialism. It might be true dat in de meantime modern social democrats adhere to many liberal values, their starting point is not individual liberty. The same goes for conservatism and christian democracy, they share a lot of liberal values, but that does not make it part of liberalism. A year ago this article had a section Liberalism vs social democracy. It might be good to re-add such a section, with the remark that there are scholars (like the Ph.D.'s you quoted) that consider social democracy part of liberalism. The section had a time the following text
Your text was
BTW: I do not think this Dictionary made by Robert Drislane, Ph.D. and Gary Parkinson, Ph.D. with very short definitions of liberalism and social democracy, justifies adding this text in the intro of this article on liberalism. Furthermore, that definition of social democracy says only that modern welfare-state liberalism is closely allied to social democratic ideas.
But I hope we can work towards such a new section. For that section, it might be useful to use the interview on liberales.be [2] I googled with social liberalism (one of the first hits after wikipedia and affiliates among 135.000 hits) with Anthony Giddens. My conclusion is that in this economic field one can distinguish economic liberalism, social liberalism, social democracy and democratic socialism, which are distinct but each of them with overlaps with its neighbours. Electionworld = Wilfried ( talk 07:36, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
I do not agree with you that social liberalism should go away. It is an often used term to describe progressive liberals, especially in Europe. We can still use it. I like to have more soures, but this online dictionary is not a very useful source. I still think the intro is well balanced and doesn't need real alterations. What do you think about a section on liberalism and social democracy. Electionworld = Wilfried ( talk 15:53, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
"Broadly speaking, contemporary liberalism emphasizes individual rights as opposed to group rights. It seeks a society characterized by freedom of thought for individuals, limitations on power, especially of government"
Contemporary liberalism emphasizes group rights in the US., at least, (affirmative action). Modern US liberals don't like freedom of thought too much, apparantly, as they are the ones that push for hate crime laws. Modern liberals want more government interventon, not less. See Democratic Party (United States) or modern liberalism. OceanDepths 22:16, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
I Fully agree. Some weeks ago the earlier version of this part of the article made sense, but some recent edits by user:Intangible (which were reverted, criticized and then re-inserted by Intangible) have really inverted the order of what might be logically expected from the description of Modern and Classical Liberalism. It is quite obvious that "Modern", as well as "Social-" Liberalism emphasizes "group" rights much more than Classical Liberals and their comtemporary counterparts Libertarians, who are the ones that favor more individual rights as opposed to the Modern liberals' policies of "social responsibility", "public utility", "welfare", "special rights", "positive discrimination", etc, etc. Justice III 04:32, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
I fully disagree. I am a European social liberal and was active in social liberalism for some time. Social liberalism starts from the individual and wants the maximal possible liberty for every individual. But at the same time, social liberalism believes that starvation, poverty are not compatible with individual liberty. In order to ensure maximal liberty for all, government intervention is that view necesary. That doesn't mean that group rights are emphasized over individual rights: it is about liberty for every individual, not only for the strong and wealthy. Electionworld (prev. : Wilfried) ( talk 07:47, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
I'm not sure if your are saying that you agree with the original commentators that the section in question is not well written, or if you agree with the original commentators that liberals favor group rights over individual rights and oppose freedom of thought? Rick Norwood 20:41, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
Er, wrong. That is, btw, a straw man argument. Nobody said (at least I didn't) that "liberals" don't care a damn for individual rights as you implied, only that modern/social liberals strongly emphasize collective rights as a priority, whereas Classical Liberals believe that only by holding individual(or self-centered, or egotistic, as you wish) rights above "collective" ones can society be truly free. It is a difference of degree and specially method: how can personal freedom be best protected? Social Liberals say: "by compelling individuals by force of the law and social regulations so that, e.g. the banning of the right to racially offend someone will protect the rights of all potential victims. Oh, and the State must enforce it, off course!"; A Classical Liberal would say: "by maintaining by all means every single personal right, including the right to be stupid and discriminate against someone on the basis of color - and then facing by himself all the social and economic consequences for that (e.g., social pressure, demonstrations, boycotts, public loathing, etc.). The State need not meddle with that, since, for every right that is allegedly upheld by force, another one is taken away from society, and there comes a time when nobody knows where is the limits for state power are, which is the looming signal of authoritarianism, no matter how 'benign' it seems at first". Here you have the difference. And by the way, another point: both users Rick and Wilfried are avowed social-(modern-)liberals themselves, so that their objectivity on this issue is somewhat, say, disputable. This is nothing personal (please by no means take this as an offense, just a friendly suggestion), I just think that sometimes we should keep away from articles we are emotionally or ideologically attached to. I for one almost never edit articles on religion, since I know that as a radical secularist I would hardly manage to be fully objective, even citing external references. But as I said, this is only a suggestion. You have the individual right to edit it, even if taken collectively partisanship isn't a good idea here. I guess you get what I mean, don't you? ;) Justice III 04:56, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
Affirmative action, in the view of most of its proponents, and especially its liberal proponents, is not about "group rights". It is about counterbalancing the effects of discrimination. Taking African Americans as an example (probably the canonical example), you would find very few people (and most would be well left of liberals) who would argue, for example, that African Americans as a group are entitled to a particular number of positions in the entering class of a university or a particular number of union jobs. What liberal proponents of affirmative action say is that (1) we assume that African Americans are as capable as anyone else. (2) If they are not represented in roughly proportional numbers in universities or unions, then that is prima facie evidence of discrimination, whether by the institution itself or in terms of access to the resources by means of which people usually arrive in the institution. (3) It should be government or institutional policy to counterbalance thid discrimination. (4) The most efficient way to do so will vary from institution to institution, but is likely to include active recruiting of African Americans, possibly extending to remedial skills programs. Earlier forms of affirmative action also included plain old quotas, easier to enforce, in some respects, but the courts ruled it illegal. Still, even then the intent wasn't to create a group right, even if courts determined that had been the unconstitutional effect. - Jmabel | Talk 07:11, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
Since when are "progressive taxes" a major tennent of liberalism?
Roughly, from the time they were introduced. The argument in favor of a progressive tax was that without it the concentration of wealth produced an upper class that was hostile to the egalitarian liberal ideal. For more information, see progressive tax. Rick Norwood 13:50, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
I doubt that it is a typical liberal issue, since I am aware of liberals supporting flat tax. I wouldn't say that progressive taxes are an essentialium for liberalism worldwide. Electionworld (prev. : Wilfried) ( talk 19:39, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
That may be true, but in no way does progressive taxation define a liberal. Furthermore, a progressive tax system may be the only viable political option available as voters may be demanding envious satisfaction from the liberal politicians. ( CosmopolitanCapitalist 14:18, 16 August 2006 (UTC))
Monopoly may or may not be deseriable in a free market...it depends on several factors. But please do not confuse the idea of "free market" with anarchy. That is often done by those who wish to attack the free market. Free market does not mean a complete absense of an authority. (
CosmopolitanCapitalist
13:59, 18 August 2006 (UTC))
Seems this article deals with the American form of Liberalism, in the main. -- MacRusgail 14:48, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
How come?
Rick Norwood 18:27, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
Most liberals now oppose multiculturalism, while preferring pluralism. While a liberal society tries to be neutral generally, not all cultures are equally meritorious or noble, nor are all cultural inheritances and practices acceptable in a liberal society. For example, while different ways of preparing food enriches diversity, likewise forms of entertainment, those cultures that mutilate human genitals in no way can be approved or tolerated. Likewise, cultures that devalue women are limited in their expression of this cultural value, as a pluralistic liberal society insists upon equal treatment of all genders, at least in the public square. Thus, a pluralistic liberal society fosters and relishes variable modes of life and different cultural expressions within a liberal democratic structure, provided these variations do not harm others. Conversely, multiculturalism espouses a basic indifference and relativism to all cultures, when, in fact, not all cultures are equally valuable or relatively equal.
Uncited and opinionated. I would appreciate if someone else would edit this. Otherwise, I will feel free to remove it pending replacement by something citable. My strongest objections are to the phrases "not all cultures are equally meritorious or noble" "not all cultures are equally valuable or relatively equal." Pure opinion, in Wikipedia's narrative voice. No doubt the writer intends this to be read as favoring European and North American civilization. After all, not Europeans ever tried to kill or oppress anyone on a racial or ethnic basis. That's why there are so many Jews in Central Europe and why all the African Americans are descendants of free immigrants. Uh-huh.
As for devaluing women: women were denied the vote in virtually every Western country 100 years ago. If this meant that a culture were incurably illiberal, how does one then account for the subsequent spread of liberal democracy?
By the way, cultures don't mutilate genitals. That may be a cultural practice but it is not a culture. It is an abhorrent practice but, again, the West is not incapable of abhorrent practices.
Which really leads us to the point: there are illiberal practices, but it is very opionated to claim that there are inherently illiberal cultures. 50 or 60 years ago we in America were routinely being told that East Asians were incapable of democracy. Look at Japan, South Korea, and the Republic of China today. This claim about cultures, as against practices, is totally out of line.
I'll give at least 48 hours on this, probably more, but if someone doesn't turn this into something at least defensible, preferably something citable, I will feel very free simply to remove it. - Jmabel | Talk 03:06, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
I think more thought needs to be given about the many statements on this page that freedom/liberty is the most important common thread that links liberal movements through the ages. I don't think this is true, and I think it is based on a wrong etymological association between the words liberal and liberty. It seems to me that the main unifying principles of liberalism have been social progressivism and fostering a climate where the strong are happy to help the weak (although not under compulsion). This may imply a libertarian ethic, but the libertarian ethic is not what makes liberalism unique. Zargulon 02:41, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
Both of you are mistaken. The strong happy to help the weak is Christianity, not Liberalism. But there is plenty of commentary, by the founding fathers and others, about the need for the government to protect the ordinary citizen from the rapacity of the rich. Here is one easy counterexample for Hogeye: "I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies . . . If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around [the banks] . . . will deprive the people of all property until their children wake-up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered . . . The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people, to whom it properly belongs. Letter to the Secretary of the Treasury Albert Gallatin (1802) ; later published in The Debate Over The Recharter Of The Bank Bill (1809)" Thomas Jefferson Rick Norwood 01:32, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
I freely admit to being often mistaken.. but what non-authoritarian political movement doesn't espouse liberty as a virtue? Also I have a problem with the paragraph which begins with the etymology of the word liberalism.. it then mysteriously goes on to refer to the freedom-related writings of Livy, M. Aurelius, Machiavelli and Locke, all of whom predated the birth of liberalism as a concept, and who likely did not even use the word liberal (except of course the Latin authors who meant "generous"). Many other political movements could claim equal inspiration from these authors. I rather feel that paragraph has a sense of being about freedom, rather than about liberalism. Isn't the reader expecting something more specific there? Zargulon 09:13, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
Let me modify my stance slightly as a result of being educated by the encyclopedia reference you gave. What it seems from there is that one could legitimately say that the defining characteristic of liberalism is that restrictions to freedom must be explicitly justified.. that the burden of proof is on those proposing the restrictions. I acknowledge that this is the primary virtue of liberalism, and I don't claim that other political movements would say the same about themselves. However, the paragraph in the WP article which I referred to would be equally valid, if not more so, in an article on anarchism or libertarianism. From what I read, it seems to be misleading to say "liberalism is the belief in individuals freedom" but rather "liberalism is the belief that restrictions on individuals freedom must be scrupulously and individually justified by the state" (or something, your reference says it better than me). I withdraw my criticism of the reference to Locke .. I am still unhappy about Machiavelli, and the Roman authors even more. There is circumstantial evidence that the original writers of that paragraph were prejudiced by their mistaken view that liberal comes from the Latin word liber (free), which is how the text stood until I corrected it. Any thoughts? Zargulon 15:49, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
Hi Lucidish, that is very interesting. We edited at more or less the same time so I refer you to my contribution of 15:49 UTC. Zargulon 15:54, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
Zargulon, I agree that the Roman guys and Machiavelli were not liberal, and should be deleted. Lucidish, I think that anarchism is the radical branch of liberalism. There have been anti-statist branches of liberalism going way back, e.g. Wilhelm von Humboldt, Frederic Bastiat, Gustav de Molinari, Herbert Spencer, and Auberon Herbert. You note that "all classical liberals supported the existence of a government," but it should be kept in mind that the term "government" was not always intended to mean "State." For many liberal writers, "government" meant an organization which defends rights. Jefferson's use of the term in the US Declaration of Independence is perhaps the best known example. Albert Jay Nock made this distinction explicit in his book "Our Enemy the State." This Jeffersonian/Nockian meaning of "government" is totally compatible with anarchism, or at least liberal anarchism. I noted in an earlier version of the liberalism article that anarchism is a radical radical form of liberalism. Perhaps Thoreau put it best in "Civil Disobedience":
Hogeye 17:35, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
Our defining example of a Republic is the Roman Republic (not, for example, what Plato called a Republic). Livy is a primary source about the struggles that arise in any republic, in particular about the inevitable conflict between liberals and conservatives. Everything in Livy sounds as modern and up to date as Fox News. The conservatives are rich and maintain that property rights are the most important rights, and that religion demands that the old ways be preserved. The conservatives start foreign wars with the explicit aim of profiting from them personally, while distracting the mob from their demands for free grain, land, and equal rights. The liberals demand freedom, equal rights with the upper class, redistribution of wealth, a limit on the political power of the rich, and the right of the poor to hold public office. All of the founding fathers, in fact, every educated person (in Europe and America) in the 18th Century, had read Livy. Certainly both Locke and Burke assumed an understanding of Livy as a necessary basis for their own ideas. Machievelli, in "Discourses on Livy", was not defining a Republic but rather giving a realistic commentary on how a Republic actually worked, as contrasted with the idealistic nonsense usually spouted by politicians. It is a companion to The Prince, which did the same for autocratic government. Rick Norwood 13:06, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
The main difference between the Roman republic and the American republic is that in Rome people voted by tribe while in America they voted by state. In the Italian city states that had (small r) republican government, only male property owners could vote, but that was also true when the American republic was founded. If, as this article maintains, freedom is the defining issue for liberalism, then the many passages in Livy and in Machievelli about freedom are liberal in intent if not in name. In Rome, the primary freedom the plebians demanded was freedom to hold public office. They demanded it and they got it. Their first major success in this area was the establishmentment of the tribunes, who had veto power over the patrician senate. In Italy the primary freedom the people demanded was freedom from the direct control of the Pope. They fought for it and lost. Electionworld asks for secondary sources to back up my claims. Since I concentrate my reading almost entirely on primary sources, I'll have to wait for someone else to provide secondary sources. Rick Norwood 12:37, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
I've created a new article on the concept of liberal_neutrality as found in the works of Rawls and many other liberal philosophers, would be good if anyone could contribute to it as I feel this is a concept that needs an entry but currently lacks one. Cxk271 16:39, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
It looks to me like this whole section should be deleted. It implies that liberal opposition to theocracy and religion-based violation of rights is new. In fact, liberalism has been opposed to religious authoritarianism from its inception. The section alleges "a conflict between cultural toleration and the individual rights." In fact, liberalism has never condoned the violation of rights. It has never tolerated such aggression - cultural toleration is about voluntary conduct and beliefs, not aggressive acts. Rather than any deviationism, the section merely gives the modern equivalent of the fight against witch-hunts and torturing heretics. Hogeye 01:55, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
This talk page is getting huge and it seems to me somebody should archive it, but I don't know how and when this is done. Grand Slam 7 00:38, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Cut:
Both Pinochet and the Shah of Iran were installed as a result of American-organised coups, so cliams of neoliberal policy may be suspect. True neoliberalism is primarily concentrated in the UK and the USA.
Jmabel | Talk 20:53, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
For me the paragraph on Liberal internatonal relations theory. I would like to see references before we can keep this paragraph in the article. I am not yet convinced that this paragraph belongs in the article. Electionworld 22:43, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
If it is taught in college, a textbook reference should be easy to add. Rick Norwood 14:45, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
I'm not sure I understand your question. International relations is a phrase in common use in the US. By "liberal" ideas about international relations, a person could mean anything from "respect for the rights of other nations and multilateral rather than unilateral intervention" to, at the other extreme, "surrendering the sovereignty of the US to the UN and having George W. Bush tried as a war criminal". (I don't think anybody really holds the latter view -- well, not many people, anyway. Maybe Harry Bellafonte.)
In American International Relations courses Liberal IR theory still carries abit of what is now the classical view of liberalism. Liberal IR theory focuses on the state as a primary actor but power is not the main concern, if they do calculate power they do so by including factors such as economic strength rather than just manpower and military might. Liberals do not focus on war, which they view as an interuption between peaceful relations but on other transactions between states, such as diplomacy or trade (mostly trade). Original Liberal IR theorists viewed good trade relations as a positive means of achieving peaceful relations among states. Notably free trade theorists who believe free trade will lead to world peace. Old school liberal theorists, such as Kant, never came out and said it is economic freedom that brings about peace, but did set out to set up the conditions upon which a peaceful world might be achieved.
American liberals (left wingers) tend not to be IR Liberals but a mix between IR realists (pessimists), IR Marxists, IR Feminists, and American liberals (left wingers in academia) really love constructivism.
(Gibby 17:29, 11 January 2006 (UTC))
it only correlates if your definition of political liberal is the same as ir liberal aka it must be classical liberal...which is what liberal really means anywho (Gibby 05:24, 12 January 2006 (UTC))
I agree with including it (possibly because it's currently part of my course.) I'll have a root around in my books after I finish my exam period (I should actually be revising at the moment....but I got distracted. Slizor 10:51, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
There is a difference between the political ideology of liberalism and the actual root definition of liberalism. Political ideology liberalism is an ideology that advocates strong government control and security over the economoy but limited control on moral and individual issues. The first paragraph states that liberalism has to do with free market economics, private enterprise, and capitalism, which is not linked to political ideology. There needs to be clarification on these differences.
This article may need a rewrite. It looks like this article relates more to libertarianism than liberalism, two different political ideology. (related only in social and moral issues). Zachorious 05:33, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
Yes I am not doubting classic liberalism for free market economics but many modern liberals are not. This should be clarified. Zachorious 22:43, 12 January 2006 (UTC) .
Lucidish, I'm not saying all social liberals are against the free market. It is just that in the Western countries like the united states classic liberalism is actually far closer libertarionism. So the social liberals, at least in some Western countries are actually libertarions. Many social liberals tend to support strong government control over the economy but I am not saying this a norm or anything.
Electionworld I will add the clarification along with the addition. Zachorious 07:30, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps more attention to be paid to the meaning of "liberal" as the word is used in the USA. It is, after all, a large and significant country. It would be fairer to say that the word has a meaning that varies regionally, rather than simply gloss over the American meaning as though everyone in that country is somehow mistaken about the real meaning of the word. We don't want to fall into the Etymological fallacy. In the USA, policies such as rigid gun control and support for anti-vilification laws, which by any reasonable definition could be considered to restrict freedom, are considered to be liberal.
To provide contrast to this, the leader of Australia's major conservative party (which is in fact called the Liberal Party) can say without paradox or irony that his party is the trustee of the two great traditions of liberalism and conservatism. ( http://www.pm.gov.au/news/speeches/speech1554.html) Ordinary Person 14:02, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
I'd like to note that the difference between (classical) liberalism and libertarianism is above all a difference of degree, not substance. Liberals and libertarians agree on fundamental principles, but liberals are more moderate, and libertarians are more radical. Libertarians oppose any and all government intervention in just about anything, while liberals wish to cut down existing levels of government intervention without necessarily going all the way to minarchism. To put it another way, liberals want less government, whereas libertarians want minimal government. -- Nikodemos (f.k.a. Mihnea) 11:48, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
"Classical Liberalism" is a slightly amorphus term as it evolved over many many years. The furthest that Political Classical Liberalism went in terms of negative rights was in J.S. Mill's On Liberty - but On Liberty also contains some notions of positive rights as well. With Economic Classical Liberalism it would have to be The Wealth of Nations, but even that expressed some reservations about the extent to which a market can effectively operate. To argue that Libertarianism is an extention of "Classical Liberalism" is to ignore some very serious concerns of Classical Liberals. By the original argument it would also be possible to argue that Anarcho-Capitalism is not qualitatively different, but ideas just taken to an extreme. And Gibby, evolution is not necessarly perversion. Slizor 10:48, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
Does more government go with more freedom, or not. Depends on the circumstances. I have more freedom because the government provides a police force, to protect me from criminals. I have more freedom because the government provides an army, to protect me from invasion. Sometimes more government means more freedom, sometimes less. Right now, we have more government that ever, in terms of spending. And yet, some conservatives say we also have too much freedom, and need even more government to make sure that we don't ease the pain of dying or smoke pot, and to make sure our children pray in school, to whatever God is officially approved by politicians in Washington. Rick Norwood 15:41, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
It seems both this and the Conservatism article were written by a liberal. They are both grossly distorted and everyone here knows it. Liberals for small government??!! I thought this was a place for facts, not propaganda. Conservatives are like communists?!? Not in THIS reality. Someone please fix these articles or you will be blatently showing bias. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 208.191.226.140 ( talk • contribs) .
OK, I think it need highlighting in the introduction that we are dealing with a range of irreconciliable ideologies, albeit ones with common origins. Grant65 | Talk 04:13, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
Before people disagree with Hogeye's edit remember that liberals originally believed that freedoms which modern liberals take for granted were freedoms generated and protected by growing economic freedom. Thus, while many countries retain many political freedoms they have turned their back (to some extent) on many economic freedoms that granted them their current liberty. Whther you believe that or not is irrelevant that was the theory. (Gibby 04:26, 16 January 2006 (UTC))
(written in reply to "Before people disagree with Hogeye's edit remember that liberals originally believed that freedoms which modern liberals..." post above by Gibby)
We have to take in mind that the Oxford Manifesto is the basic document of the Liberal International, a world organization of liberal parties and groups, in which economic liberal and social liberal parties work together. It clearly represents mainstream liberalism as it developed after WW II. I agree with Hogeye in so far as it is not a classical liberal manifesto. The Costarican Libertarian Movement as a member party of the LI accepts this documents. I spoke with a representative of that party, who made also clear that their political programme became less dogmatic (my words) libertarian. Electionworld 07:17, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
I've restored the older version of the introduction, which has stood for a while now. I understand that for libertarians, the only important freedoms are economic freedoms, but that view belongs in the article on libertarianism, not here.
It is also a quixotic battle, since there has never been freedom from taxes in any developed country, and it is unlikely that there ever will be freedom from taxes in the future. In the US today we have an astonishing degree of economic freedom -- though the right to buy congressmen has been recently challenged. Rick Norwood 15:34, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
It is interesting to see that as far as I know in direct democracies often taxation legislation is exluded from referenda. Since most liberal democracies are more or less representative democracies, I would say it is up to the legislature as representative of the citizens to modify taxation. Electionworld 07:22, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
The text contains the following statement:
I believe this is not the most precise statement that can be made about the comparison, and thus has the effect of being overly-critical of modern liberalism. I believe that it would be more accurate if it read:
While there may be other minority views out there, I believe mainstream modern liberalism does not generally advocate the forcible taking of life, or of liberty (outside of economic restrictions) in order to provide such material well-being. Also, the right to property is generally respected by mainstream modern liberals when it comes to outright confiscation of property, as opposed to government taxation (or perhaps regulation). Finally, it is worth clarifying that mainstream modern liberals typically have as a goal and premise that the provision of material well-being is for all citizens/persons/residents, rather than for some subset of them (although in practice, the recipients of government aid tend to be poor people, because they are the ones who don't already have the minimal level of economic well-being).
I will make this change, unless there develops a consensus to the contrary, or I am otherwise convinced not to. Thesmothete 04:02, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
The first line needs to be modified to eliminate the erroneous claim that liberalism "strives to maximize liberty." This is POV because it endorses the utilitarian point of view (as opposed to the natural rights point of view.) Since liberalism originated with the natural law viewpoint (Locke), and natural law theory dominated until after Mill, this is a major error. There is a huge philosophical difference between don't violate anyone's rights and maximize rights in society, possibly at the expense of any particular individual's rights). The old lynch-mob example underlines this difference. I will now substitute "liberty is the primary political value." Does anyone know the original source of "liberty ... primary political value?" Hogeye 20:18, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
Found it! A: Lord Action. "Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end." Hogeye 20:32, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
There are actually two ways to set up this model. They are outlined by Robert Nozick, and referred to as the "utilitarianism of rights" and the side-constraint view.3 The first, "utilitarianism of rights," replaces maximization of social utility with minimization of violations of rights in the model. According to Nozick, "This ... would require us to violate someone's rights when doing so minimizes the total (weighted) amount of the violation of rights in the society."4 This is true because the rule calls for a minimization of a weighted aggregate. For example, whether or not the small-town sheriff gives up an innocent person to an angry but mistaken lynch mob depends upon how many, and how important, are the rights violations exhibited by the mob in acting out their frustration. The second alternative incorporates side-constraints to determine what actions may be done: "Don't violate constraints C. The rights of others determine the constraints upon your actions."5
I think you misunderstand the natural rights point of view when you write that it implies "the negative right to keep your money is more important that the positive right of the poor to food." On the contrary, the right to life and the right to the fruits of your labor are both equally non-violable in the natural rights view. The difference between the natural rights view and the other view is in the interpretation of "right to life." Seen as a negative right, it means that others should not coercively prevent you from life-sustaining action. Seen as a positive right, it means that someone should provide you with the goods required for living. To negative rights theorists, that amounts to a right to enslave, since those goods must be created by other men. Tradeoffs are never necessary in a negative rights system; if two apparent rights conflict, then at least one must be counterfeit. Hogeye 21:49, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
I have no idea what's going on here. Utilitarianism has to do with maximization of happiness, not liberty. You can be a deontologist and seek to maximize liberty. Lucidish 02:44, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
Shorter titles are an improvement. Rick Norwood 13:37, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
Seeing several errors in grammar and capitalization in a recent edit, I began to make corrections. As I went on, I found more and more examples of repetition and long-windedness, where different people at different times had inserted ideas they considered important into the article in several different places. I've tried not to leave anything out. I've also tried to keep the article from saying the same thing twice. Rick Norwood 23:00, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
In the text there is a paragraph with the following text:
Both Nikodemos and I deleted the italic part. KDRGibby readded this text and argued: yes we do, milton friedman is a constant reminder of how certain segments of liberals are completely wrong on economics and history...he's cited and shall stay. I do not think we need this text on Friedman. Friedman is mentioned in the text some times. it is not an article about FriedmanI have a problem with KDRGibby's argument why this citation should be in: that argument is clearly not neutral (certain segments of liberals are completely wrong) and I have a problem with he's cited and shall stay. Since when is KDRGibby the one who decides. Before I re-delete this citation, I would like to know if there is a general feeling that this citation is a relevant addition to the entry. 159.46.248.230 14:55, 3 February 2006 (UTC) (=Electionworld)
Yes it is necessary, many modern American liberals, and modern leftists, socialists, and communists paint the industrial revolution as a time of increasing poverty and hardship. This simply is not true. I can't say it alone because you socialists will demand a source... Friedman is that source, now you want to delete him outright, which makes room for deleting other material you find objects to your own beliefs. It must stay. When citing a source, the source does not need to be neutral. Start understanding that EW!!!! (Gibby 15:08, 3 February 2006 (UTC))
One person not only disagreed with that "remark" but demanded a citation for it as well. This person, and many others, as I stated before, believe the 19th century to be a period of increasing poverty. This simply is not the case. Friedman is the citation that covers this line of (correct) reasoning. I'm not arguing a thesis I'm citing a source for a line of though contradictory to populist beliefs. It should stay. (Gibby 19:15, 3 February 2006 (UTC))
"not more poverty" "instead" "more visible (poverty)" (I agree with this part, and this part was not deleted.) But the sentence continues: "many" "experienced" "increase". This neither follows from nor reenforces the first part. For example, it would be perfectly possible for the average standard of living to decrease while many people experienced an increase in their standard of living.
He is right, but thats not even what the sentence or article is saying...its giving his view...which just happens to be correct. (Gibby 21:44, 3 February 2006 (UTC))
No, I'm afraid you're missing the point. What Friedman is saying, which is factual is that you (using your own game) have an island with 1000 people on it. Every one starts out with $100 but 10 people who have $1,000. A few years of liberalism and those 10 people move up to $10,000, 700 people move up to $1,000 and the other 290 stay at $100 (or there around).
Milton Friedman is telling us that societies wealth is growing, that many people are increasing their wealth, but there have been a few people who did not increase their wealth as far as others, if at all. They did not get worse off, they just became more visible.
You are assuming that many got worse off, THIS DID NOT HAPPEN. THis is the revisionism and the logical economic failures Friedman attempts to address through such a statement about the poor becoming more visible not that there were more poor as a result of industrialization. Others assume that wealth is a zero sum game, which your game insinuates, THIS IS NOT TRUE. Zero sum games imply fixed wealth (which your game mathematically doesnt even add up too, thanks for playing though!) but Wealth has no fixed amount, it is always changing, and under capitalism, growing a vast majority of the time.
The milton friedman addition is to address false and falable beliefs like your own. (Gibby 07:08, 4 February 2006 (UTC))
BernardL 13:46, 4 February 2006 (UTC) Your arguments represent an attempt to apply arguments appropriate to an established system to a period of radical, in fact civilizational, disruption of the social order. There was massive deruralization and social dislocation and exploitation that is well documented. It is not only a matter of there being more visible poor, but rather the social dislocation created genuine casualties (not just poverty), and for many a loss of traditional livelihoods and cultures. I think one should not be so insensitive to the casualties in this process by treating them as mere statistics. Traditionally many leftists have emphasized that the industrial revolution was in fact a double-edged sword, with both progressive and destructive elements on a massive scale.
From E.P.Thompson, The Making of the English Working Class:
" I am seeking to rescue the poor stockinger, the Luddite cropper, the 'obsolete' hand-loom weaver, the 'Utopian' artisan, and even the deluded follower of Joanna Southcott, from the enormous condescension of posterity. Their crafts and traditions may have been dying. Their hostility to the new industrialism may have been backward-looking. Their communitarian ideals may have been fantasies. Their insurrectionary conspiracies may have been foolhardy. But they lived through these times of acute social disturbance, and we did not. Their aspirations were valid in terms of their own experience; and, if they were casualties of history, they remain, condemned in their own lives, as casualties.
Our only criterion of judgement should not be whether or not a man's actions are justified in the light of subsequent evolution. After all, we are not at the end of social evolution ourselves. In some of the lost causes of the people of the Industrial Revolution we may discover insights into social evils which we have yet to cure. Moreover, the greater part of the world today is still undergoing problems of industrialization, and of the formation of democratic institutions, analogous in many ways to our own experience during the Industrial Revolution. Causes which were lost in England might, in Asia or Africa, yet be won." BernardL 13:46, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
Bernard, I think your affair with traditional and cultural issues is bacwards. If we were so worried about such petty things as traditions most of us would be sheep farmers. You are right to say that there was much social upheaval. Technology made farm productivity high, competition fierce, and the need for farmers low. This technolgoical innovation forced farmers out of work and into the cities. THIS WAS A GOOD THING!
Technological innovation also put many buggy whip producers out of work... wooden wheel makers telephone operators abbacus makers
the list goes on and on
if the there was no upheaval and job distruction we would not move forward. If we sat back and protected every existing job not only would innovation stop moving us forward, we'd lose all incentive to innovate! This distruction is the economies way (the invisible hand) moving resources around to their newer highest valued use!!!
You are looking at things backward. Protecting existing jobs, existing competitors, and traditions is regressive and bacward looking. (Gibby 19:42, 4 February 2006 (UTC))
"Social liberals such as John Dewey have argued that the industrial-scientific revolution remains a project in a state of stagnation, whose full promise remains far from fulfilled. Accordingly this stagnation is explained as the "rerouting of enlightment advancements for merely private pecuniary gain, for the inheritence and accumulation of private properties & private powers" which "drained and continues to drain liberalism of an otherwise promising career."[ [2]]"
I cut out the paragraph above, recently added to the article, for the following reasons. The paragraph says that "John Dewey" ... "argued" (past tense) "that" ... "remains" (present tense). What Dewey said may apply to the present day, but he cannot have said it about the present day. Second, the quote is, presumably, by Dewey, but the paragraph does not really say this, and the footnote, instead of referencing the original source, references an article about that sourse in which the references are not in standard form, making it difficult to find the source of the quote.
I hope the author of the paragraph will try again. Rick Norwood 17:40, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
Fair enough, I was being a tad too lazy. I'll try another attempt to explain this point soon. BernardL 18:37, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
I'm not quite sure I even understand his complaint. Was Dewey saying that "consumerism" (as we now call it) was disrupting the advancement of the enlightenment?
That really smacks against liberalisms basic principles, of which consumerism has become a part. We dont produce for our own health, we produce so others purchase so that we can gain a living and therby consume for ourselves.
Is this a misquote, or is the quote taken out of context, or is Dewey by no means an economic liberal? (Gibby 19:11, 4 February 2006 (UTC))
As I thought... I have no problem with allowing a proper quote of the incorrect Dewey to be included. (Gibby 19:30, 4 February 2006 (UTC))
What I wanted to express was the point that Dewey made in several places to the effect that capitalism was in fact ill-adapted to modern industrial society, and that the best of liberal values could only be universalized and realized in fullest form if capitalism, which he referred to as "industrial feudalism", was replaced by a kind of participatory "industrial democracy" with oodles of public ownership and planning. For Dewey the industrial revolution was an unfinished revolution that had been coopted by pecuniary interests. I had a specific description of this ill-adaption in mind; it's buried somewhere in my paper archives. I hope I'll find it soon. (I think Veblen and Mumford and similar figures all shared similar correct views) BernardL 19:48, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
Are you saying that Dewey was not happy with how capitalism developed into a system whereby the government picked economic winners and losers, overregulated with central planning, and through the self interest of politicians made private enterprise public property (government buisnesses)? (Gibby 19:56, 4 February 2006 (UTC))
Apparently we are going to have an infinite (or at least unbounded) sequence of reverts between "a idiology" and "an idiology". Well, at least it keeps them off the streets. Rick Norwood 15:33, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
Your turn to revert Gibby, Thesmothete -- the "reference" he cites is a doctrinaire Libertarian site. Let me ask you, Gibby, would you let me get away citing a doctrinaire Marxist site? We need mainstream views here. In the article on Libertarianism, you can say anything you like. Rick Norwood 01:16, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
That is a cited published source. Rick, ignorance of the rules is no excuse to revert legitimate stuff. ( Gibby) http://www.mackinac.org/article.aspx?ID=1662 Check it out yourself. Legit, and allowable. Stop deleting material you disagree with, just because you disagree with. ( Gibby 01:21, 1 March 2006 (UTC))
Oh, its also a GD fact that there was no lassiez faire government at the time of the depression, it is also a fact that there was heavy government intervention before and during the depression. Ignorance is no excuse! ( Gibby 01:22, 1 March 2006 (UTC))
If they have cited material and proof to back it up, I've got no problem... But the problem is, your analogy is in no way comparable to the situation here. I actually have an article that is itself cited on the historical facts present at the onset of the GD... Your comparison is citation to no citation. It really does work. ( Gibby 01:32, 1 March 2006 (UTC))
OH yes, if they said... "The Christian Coalition believed that Bush acted with inspiration from GOD" there would be no problem... Again, like I said before, and repeating myself...your comparison is bad. ( Gibby 01:34, 1 March 2006 (UTC))
There is a source here, but I'm not sure where in this paper by Lawrence Reed he says that there were no laissez-faire states at the time. Gibby, which page? Lucidish 03:11, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
Try reading the whole thing but if that bugs you, read pages 3-7. (
Gibby
03:29, 1 March 2006 (UTC))
Good work, Electionworld. Rick Norwood 20:21, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
Liberalism does not imply democracy. There are whole books written on the subject. Majority rule can oppress minorities, is the basic arguement. So democracy is not the best form of government for liberalism. So can people please stop saying that it is!-- harrismw 07:33, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
The problem here is a failure to communicate. The public discourse has become so corrupted that people are careless in making a distinction between a democracy, a constitutional democracy, and a representative democracy = republic. This article really should say either constitutional democracy or republic when it means something other than an absolute democracy. Rick Norwood 14:42, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
While most liberals think that (representative) democracy is the best form of government to guarantee minority rights, it is often thought by liberals that a democracy (even a representative democracy) can oppress minorities. We see such situations where there is an ethnic minority being persecuted by an another ethnic majority. (Or religion, or whatever.) I think that so long as the article states that not all liberals desire democracy, then it is all right I guess. (See some of Heinlein's books for examples of "liberal" societies that are not democratic, and if I see stuff that implies that democracy is necessary for liberalism, I'll change it.) harrismw 03:08, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
Wilfried Derksen deleted the examples of a republic (France) and a constitutional monarchy (United Kingdom). I think the examples should remain, therefore I am asking for other opinions on this subject. Rick Norwood 14:16, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
Wilfried Derksen has put several examples in as footnotes. I appreciate the effort to compromise, but I'm under the impression that 1) Wikipedia frowns on the use of "e.g." and 2) footnotes should be used for references rather than examples.
I hope a third party will weigh in on this subject. Rick Norwood 14:00, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
I moved the examples to the text. The problem is not that I do not want examples, but I don't like them to be in the intro of the article. Electionworld = Wilfried ( talk 11:54, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
why don't you libs just go make a chat board somewhere, and leave the internet alone? you're passing off garabge like this as fact, when the reality is so much different.
"Broadly speaking, liberalism seeks a society characterized by freedom of thought for individuals,\"
That's a lie.
"limitations on the power of government,"
That's a lie.
"wealth,"
limitations on wealth? yep, socialist pigs, for sure.
" and religion, "
liberals fear religion
"the rule of law,"
liberals make up their own laws as they see fit.
Do not be baited by what has been written above, although it is a bit humurous. He was probably the same mature individual that wrote Liberalism is a mental disorder in the actual article. xcuref1endx
Wikipedia is a joke.
Don't confuse welfare liberalism with classical liberalism. The term "liberalism" has been usurped --largely in the U.S. However, there is still the term "classical liberalism" for those that hold the classic liberal philosophy of small government and individual liberty and opposition to the welfare state. RJII 01:32, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
This discussionis great! Haven't laughed so much in days! Banno 21:08, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
It almost sounds like Noam Chomsky (spelling?) except he would disagree with everything he said but other than that its the same cause everything is a big lie, lie, lie and he is bravely standing up and cutting through the bull. If you think the world is a lie and everyone around you is liar you will probably not be happy and that is why discussions like this happen because people who are unhappy get upset when other people seem okay. AgreeToBe
I think Chomsky is a bit too credulous -- like many academics, he is used to people who care about the truth. Also, I think his message would go across better if he talked about the good along with the bad -- as Al Gore does in his global warming lectures. There is, after all, plenty of good in the world. All you need to do to appreciate that is never watch television. Rick Norwood 15:45, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
People, this page is a terminological mess and an invitation for 'americocentrists' who simply can't understand the worldwide term 'liberalism' means something totally different from what they usually either curse or boast of. My proposal is to split this page into two clear disambiguated pages indicating what 'liberalism' stands for in both definitions, since what American usage means by 'liberalism' can't be even historically linked to the classical term anymore (remember that even communistoid individuals are currently being called 'liberal', and liking it!). These two definitions have been independently formed, and can't be related at all nowadays. This is confusing and can't go on. Let us make things clear on Wikipedia. Xemoi
First of all, 'liberal', in the current American psyche, including all of the media, is instantly associated with the left, be it of either a social-democratic, socialist, communist or green penchant. That is so obvious that it hardly needs any further 'evidence' from my part. Just prick up your ears and listen. Or read a newspaper, for god's sake! Or, better, read the countless complaints about the conceptual accuracy of this article from stupefied American editors. Anyway, it doesn't mean that the people using the term this way are wrong: as I said, <you> are wrong when you think both meanings are anything but two concepts apart that cannot be related anymore. The 'connections' between the definitions of 'liberalism' in both sides of the Atlantic have been null for quite some time now. Also, the alleged connection on the defense of "liberty" that you cite doesn't make sense, really, since the KINDS of freedom that European 'liberals' (who in the US would in fact be equivalent to moderate libertarians)and that American << left-wing> "liberals" defend are completely different: while the European libs argue for more ECONOMIC freedom along with some level of personal freedom, the American 'liberals' are more concerned with PERSONAL freedom (abortion, gay rights, immigration,anti-war, etc.) if any, while their economic policies are clearly and decidedly interventionist, with calls for ever more public spending! So, the types of 'liberty' both groups argue for are surely different. This is so easy to gauge, and so blatant. By the way, haven't you ever heard of the Nolan chart, or the Political Compass? Those would help make things clear. So I still believe this page has been clumsily developed in what regards terminological differences. Actually, what first urged me to do something about it is that the userbox about American users who define themselves as 'liberal' (that is,left wing - you can see that, if there's doubt yet, by the other userboxes in their pages) links to THIS article! If anything, THAT should be changed to the other article on 'liberalism' in the US. But with that common mistake you can see how things are confusing around here. One of the policies of wikipedia is to nominate and develop articles using the concepts and denominations that are more commonly used (and therefore most likely to be searched for), no matter what purists prescribe. So it's far from being a matter of "wrong" conceptions. There are two different and absolutely SEPARATE meanings, of two things that have in common just the name, arbitrarily defined for cultural reasons. AT LEAST there should be a clear note at the top of the page warning: "This article is about Liberalism in Europe; for the common American definition, see Liberalism in the United States"(or something of that nature), and all misleading links in wiki userboxes and articles should be accordingly redirected. Xemoi 22:24, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
You have been lied to so often, by people who have made a huge amount of money from their lies, that the lies now seem "obvious" and not in need of actual evidence. I will only ask you this. Was it the liberals who have put the United States nine trillion dollars in debt? Rick Norwood 00:01, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
(sigh) looks like someone has drunk too much of the kool-aid. Xemoi 01:10, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
Some sections here are somewhat too disproportionately heavy, such as "Revolutionary Liberalism", while the section on "Liberalism and Democracy", though dealing with a key aspect of the theory, is limited to one paragraph... E.Cogoy 23:19, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
I disagree. Democracy is very much cited as on the 'liberal' agenda throughout the article! And in the end, that's the same. As for revolutionary liberalism, the section may be improved, yes, but it's not that long.
Xemoi
01:19, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
The second sentence in the intro currently says:
Can someone provide a reference for liberalism seeking a society characterized in part by a limitation on the power of wealth, or at least explain what that is supposed to mean? Does the ability to hire a worker constitute an example of the power of wealth that liberalism seeks to limit? I know there are some people who are bothered by what the characterize as the power of wealth, but I've never encountered a reasonable definition of what that might be with respect to something that anyone would truly want to limit. In contrast, I understand what limits on government and religion means, and how to accomplish that (lower taxes, strong Constitution with well-defined individual rights, separation of Church and State, ...). The only "limitation" of the power of wealth I can conjure is through expansion of government power (taxation, regulation), which is contrary to liberalism. -- Serge 04:20, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
"...where political power is so limited..." Power is never limited but by an opposing power. The genius of the American constitution is that it pits the power hungry in constant battle against one another (checks and balances) instead of trying to limit or eliminate power entirely. Rick Norwood 22:26, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
The introduction states that all liberals believe that people have a right to life. However, in a strict libertarian society with no welfare whatsoever, people don't actually have a right to life -- if you can't provide for yourself, it's tough luck. (In contrast, if you are unable to protect your own property, you still have recourse to the legal system.) Does this part of the introduction need to be clarified? Cadr 15:46, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
By "right to life" the framers of liberal philosophy did not mean you might not starve to death, they only meant that the upper class could not kill lower class people at will. In those days, if an upper class gentleman out on a fox hunt trampled a peasant child under his horse's hooves, tough tooties. A modern example would be whether my economic freedom to dump toxic chemicals into your drinking water is limited by your right not to be killed by my toxic chemicals. Rick Norwood 16:44, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
Ah, in libertarian jargon. I try to stay away from libertarians as much as possible. There's a libertarian in one of the other talk pages who keeps calling me names, like "fool" and "stupid", but I find it best to ignore him. Rick Norwood 20:21, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
1. Let us not forget that this isn't an article about libertarianism, but about liberalism in its diverse forms. 2. Most liberals accept forms of taxation. The market liberal reform party of Estonia, which might be one of the most libertarian-like parties in Europe, wants low taxes, but not an abolition of taxes. 3. Most liberals favour regulation of monopolies and cartels. Is that limiting the power of wealth? Electionworld = Wilfried ( talk 07:33, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
Right to life eh? That's why most liberals are pro-choice right? LOL! PaladinWriter 21:25, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
This article has already been split several times. Liberalism in North America split off. Then Liberalism in North America split into Liberialism in the United States and Liberalism in Canada. Now we have a long list of various specialized articles on liberalism. I'm not sure what further split is now being suggested. Rick Norwood 23:55, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
Why?! well, here we go: some few sections here may be perfectly summarized, but this article /as a whole/ is 78!!kb (more than double the ideal size) and has no less than 29 sections. Split it OR make it pithy in order to comply with wikipedia standards. Xemoi 00:49, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
I agree with a split, whereby this would be the main article, and there would be at least articles articles on Early liberalism, Revolutionary liberalism, modern liberalism or political liberalism and classical liberalism. These articles would be added to the series. Is that a way. Electionworld = Wilfried ( talk 10:26, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
All in all not a bad article - but way to long. I would also agree that it should be split and (to Rick's point) trimmed to complement existing articles so as to be more of a guide/timeline from where readers can dive deeper into the turns and schisms Liberalism has undergone. Maybe something like: Rise of Liberalism (exiting the Reformation; great revolution and parliamentary government), Classical Liberalism (Locke to Mills; liberty focus; subjects to citizens), New/Progressive Liberalism (a la T.H. Green, Hobhouse, etc; intervention against inequities stemming from free markets; equality of opportunity), Modern Liberalism (Keynes, Roosevelt, Wavy Gravy, etc; New deal/welfare state; redistribution of wealth; equality of outcome). Just a thought. – Phocion 03:13, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
I created the article History of liberal thought. The present section of development of liberal thought can be summarized. I think this is in line with this debate. Electionworld = Wilfried ( talk 20:51, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
My insertion of "ostensibly" into the article by Rick Norwood was not entirely unexpected, and is also understandable. But I am left with a dilemna.
I truly do believe that the supposed greater tolerance of liberals is self-delusional, albeit almost always sincere. But in over 35 years of chewing political and policy fat with friends and acquaintences, I have come to the conclusion that liberals are no more "tolerant" of others than are conservatives. Indeed (as with conservatives), the more intense the beliefs, the less tolerant they become. Liberals are quite capable of becoming apoplectic when confronted with an opposing viewpoint. I would even suggest that conservatives (and—let us not forget—we are all forced by the breadth of this topic to generalize to an incredible degree) are, if not more accepting of opposing viewpoints, at least better able to engage in friendly debate.
So, in short, Rick, what makes liberals more tolerant? The fact that the Democratic party won't let pro-lifers within their own party address national conventions? That they oppose public Christian religiosity but not Muslim? I just think that this ostensible liberal tolerance is one of the great myths of political history. That's my two cents worth—not sure it's worth getting into a spat over. Unschool 01:49, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
I agree completely with the above ^. Deepdesertfreman 03:47, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
With over 10,000 scholarly citations, A Theory of Justice is one of the all-time most cited works in philosophy. Political Liberalism, which builds off the core ideas in TJ, is one of the most cogent statements on toleration. And yet in the entire article, Rawls gets only two tangential references.
I've read through all the comments above, and I think the fundamental problem is that people are looking at this article as an opportunity to make political statements (perhaps without recognizing it). It's bizarre, really. Political liberalism is not the liberalism of "liberal British/American politics." Insisting on any such connection is pointless. Why bother? It's just confusing.
To my mind, this article should be a neutral presentation of the core ideas in the liberalism of political philosophy, including Kant alongside Mill; Nozick alongside Rawls; and so forth. It need not deal with controversial contemporary political applications which, as they stand, are both unsophisticated and highly likely to incite contentious debate.
This goes especially for the entire "Contemporary Liberalism" section. To suggest that liberalism or "liberalism advocates" speak in a united voice about affirmative action, capital punishment, or the welfare state is patently silly. The entire section is a conflation of contemporary liberal politics with the article's earlier attention to political liberalism. Not only is the section terribly out of place, but it's also conclusory and simplistic. It informs readers of nothing worthwile (or at least nothing they couldn't pick up from a Democrat's campaign website). It really needs to go. (And I say this as someone sympathetic to contemporary liberal politics.)
I would suggest instead an article be structured according to subtopics within political liberalism, the varying viewpoints on which can be presented in clear juxtaposition.
How about something like:
Anyway, just some thoughts. Regardless, this article should stear clear of conflating "liberalism" of political philosophy with the "liberalism" of contemporary politics. It should, moreover, give its due to John Rawls--like him or not, he's one of the most cited philosophers of all time who's influenced political liberal thought immeasurably. (And, no, mere reference to the cheezy wiki on TJ won't cut it.) -- 71.235.99.75 21:35, 28 April 2006 (UTC)MBK-YLS08
I suppose I had two different points, which I should have posted separately. The first question is simply, where is Rawls? The solution is that someone has to take the time to write more on justice as fairness, and toleration generally, since these are critical strands in liberal thought.
The second point is that it would be inaccurate and disingenuous for contemporary political "liberals" to claim that their politics fit within "a synoptic view of liberalism across history" any more than any other mainstream political party of a liberal nation. America and most of the EU are liberal states, and insofar as the mainstream political parties in these countries endorse basic liberties like freedom of conscience and freedom of expression, they are all liberal. Hence, it's easy to see that liberalism relates as naturally to contemporary conservative politics as to contemporary liberal politics. (And, indeed, given the article's focus on the likes of Hayek and Freidman, the connection to "conservatism" is an even easier connection to make.)
Put more plainly, the term liberalism, as in liberal political thought, is simply not the same thing as liberalism, as in contemporary liberal politics. As such, it makes no sense whatsoever to equate liberalism as "an ideology, [and] philosophy," with any one contemporary American or Britich political party. Hence the section on "Contemporary liberal positions" is plainly inappropriate. -- 71.235.99.75 14:33, 1 May 2006 (UTC)MBK-YLS08
This Wiki article badly needs a section on the harmful effects of Liberalism on society! It is way too biased! PaladinWriter 21:27, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
RN to PW:Essentially, all Western nations, plus India and Japan, are liberal societies. So a section on the harmful effects of Liberalism would need to show ways in which people in Africa, China, and the Middle East are better off than people in the West. Maybe you could suggest a start. Rick Norwood 17:04, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
There are basically only two kinds of liberalism.
1: The freedom of the individual from domination and opression from rich people, priests, kings and rulers.
2: The freedom of rich people, priests, kings and rulers to continue to opress, dominate and use the poor and opressed people.
Everything else is mumbo-jumbo to support the second, reactionary type of liberalism, a reaction from the current upper class to the liberation movements of the masses of poor and opressed people to liberate themselves from different types of slavery.
There is definitely a need for multiple pages about Liberalism. (Roger)
How can liberalism conciliate hereditary status with monarchy? Typelighter 14:43, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
The supposed ceremonial way of monarchy isn't a reason to forget the reality of hereditary status and privilege among some groups of people within a monarchy. I recognize the differences between a constitutional monarchy and an absolute monarchy, but in any case the hereditary status is there. We should rewrite it carefully because this part of the article is very confusing and falls into evident contradictions. Typelighter 10:17, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
Really? Please enlighten.
In these three countries liberal parties have a long history, going back to 1848 in Germany and a few centuries more in Switzerland. Most educated liberals here will uphold the name of Adam Smith, freedom from oppression by a repressive government with high taxes and tariffs being their main political theme. In recent times in all three countries liberals (mostly educated business people) have come to represent the extreme right of the democratic political spectrum in most regards, which is reflected in the actual sitting order in parliament. Here is to say that taxation and social welfare in Germany is not comparable with taxation and social welfare in the US, with the ministry of health and social services comprising more than 30% of the overall budget. So while liberal parties in the German speaking countries are the only parties with a decided free market, pro-business and low taxation stance (including the so called Christian Conservatives that have just voted for the highest tax increase in post-war Germany), at the same time the head of the German liberal party is openly gay, posing with his "life-partner" for the cameras. The German liberals are definitely "pro-choice", anti-racist, pro gay-marriages, but they strongly resent "affirmative action", where they clash with the governing coalition.
Conclusion: Liberal in Europe seems to mean the near opposite of the meaning in the US! Wikipedia should at least point to this as an "alternative usage" of the term, that seams to stem from a different history. Hirsch.im.wald 07:46, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
I deleted the following text: Communist theory--though not practice--has also been found to have some basis in the writings of Marcus Aurelius in his Meditations. According to Marx, the notion of equality of the whole would create a society with equal rights for the whole. Marx even regarded communism as “liberalism in its purest sense.” Lenin, and other Soviet leaders latched on to this notion during the Russian Revolution. However, practice has shown the governments to be far from liberal. This section is unsourced, out of place (in the beginning of the article) and as far as I can not true and irrelevant. Communism and liberalism are antipodes, since communism starts with the collectivity, with class, and liberalism is based on the individual liberty. Electionworld = Wilfried ( talk 08:53, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
I really think this article is slanted in favor of the liberal political movement. The critique of liberalism is in desperate need of expansion. Also, I find it hard to believe that liberals are classified as in favor of free markets. Most of the liberals I know would be perfectly happy with communism and or socialism in our country. Deepdesertfreman 03:44, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
This sentence: Broadly speaking, liberalism seeks a society characterized by freedom of thought for individuals, limitations on power, especially of government and religion, the rule of law, the free exchange of ideas, a market economy that supports relatively free private enterprise, and a transparent system of government in which the rights of minorities are guaranteed.
covers a lot of ground. Where is the proof of, in which the rights of minorities are guaranteed.
Prove it or lose it. WP:OWN violation. Scribner 23:11, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
No, actually it won't, Rick. The speech wasn't referenced to liberalism. Don't get liberalism and American liberalism confused. Scribner 00:27, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
I don't understand your point, Scribner. American liberalism is not all of liberalism by any means, but it is a part, and any example will necessarily be from some part of the whole. Having said that, Electionworld's examples are probably better than mine. Rick Norwood 12:21, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
Most readers needs are better met by around 3 concise paragraphs, compared to 9 paragraphs for that section.-- Nectar 14:34, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
Shall the article titled Liberalism be changed into a disambiguation page that references articles like Classical liberalism, Social liberalism, American liberalism, etc.? Or should it be left as is (more or less)?
(Please vote/sign below with "# '''Support''' ~~~~" if you support a Liberalism disambiguation page, or with "# '''Oppose''' ~~~~" if you oppose it.
The opening sentence of this article is:
This is true for Classical liberalism, but is it true for all the "liberalisms" covered in this article? Consider the footnote/quote that is used as a reference: "'Liberalism' is defined as a social ethic that advocates liberty, and equality in general." (emphasis added). Is liberty the primary political value of liberalism, or is equality just as important? The answer is, I believe, it depends on what liberalism you're talking about. And that's the problem. Does it make sense to have an article about a concept for which we cannot even accurately describe in a general sense in a simple sentence? Still mulling it over... -- Serge 01:24, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
I voted oppose above, but now wonder if I should have. Since the word 'liberal' doesn't have any real meaning anymore, there is no way to start this article with one definition for liberalism. It starts out describing classical liberalism and goes straight into modern liberalism. The two are diametrically opposed in most ways. It makes the whole thing just an impossible task, because of the way this article is arranged. Sha nnon duck talk 06:38, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
Look to Wikipedia:Disambiguation
This is clear enough.
Often an article arises by one connotation. Afterwards autors arise in different connotations without to take notice of it. In the end one editor chip in that you need Wikipedia:Disambiguation against an opposition, of course.
So, if you want to write something in an other topic of a term then you may do it. It is your full right. The consequence is Wikipedia:Disambiguation. You must do it only this way. -- Irgendwer 08:43, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
I added the {{Contradict-section}} tag to the intro because the first sentence specifies the scope of the concept covered in this article:
Yet later in the intro the following assertion is made:
This contradicts the first sentence. If "liberty is the primary political value", then other values cannot take priority by definition. Is this article about the ideology which holds liberty as its primary value or not? Which is it? Trying to have it both ways is contradictory... If this article is about any ideology that values liberty, but not necessarily as the primary value, then it should cover everything from fascism to socialism and conservatism as well. All ideologies value liberty to some extent. What distinguishes classical liberalism from all other ideologies (including social liberalism, American liberalism, and any ideology that asserts "that government provision of some minimal level of material well-being takes priority over freedom from taxation") is that it consistently gives liberty priority over all other political values. So is this article about that concept (like the initial sentence claims) or not (like is claimed later in the intro)? -- Serge 08:13, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
RN to Bjsiders: Just finished reading a biography of Ben Franklin. He was liberal on some issues, conservative on others, as am I. But he was a liberal in opposing the claims of privilege on the part of the upper class, especially in Philadelphia, he was a liberal in respecting the value of honest hard work, and he was a liberal in opposing prudishness. He was a conservative in having deep doubts about social programs which, in the name of helping the poor, encourage shiftlessness.
RN to Intangible: You say liberals want more government. I say all politicians want more government: federal government involvement personal matters such as medical care, drug use, censorship of media, marriage, respect for the flag ... need I go on? Non-politicians generally want less government, but don't know how to get it. You focus on social programs, but a) there is a lot more to liberalism than that and b) conservative politicians vie with liberal politicians to see who can give away the most money (buy the most votes). Rick Norwood 14:39, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
I just went over the article and can see that the entire thing needs rewriting. This article is not based on simple fact like an encyclopedia article should be. It is confusing and is actually downright propagandized with strong socialistic influence. I will try and find the time to work on it. But like I said, the whole thing needs to be written all over again. Sha nnon duck talk 16:58, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
Generality is exactly what I'm suggesting we look into. Bjsiders 17:21, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
Look to the connotations in meriam webster dict. [6] -- Irgendwer 20:47, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
Rick, My changes were not an attempt to rewrite the article from Libertarian POV. I'm trying to explain the differences in concepts of liberty, and, hence, liberalism - one of which happens to be shared by libertarians. I'm not saying it didn't need some work, I know it did, but did you really have to revert the whole thing? -- Serge 23:26, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
Disputes in Wikipedia are settled by reasoned debate, not by "votes", with the excpetion of motions to delete an entire article. And even in that exceptional case, if the results are mixed, the article is kept, even if the majority vote to delete.
So, let's discuss. The fact that Lucidish supports your rewrite carries a lot of weight. Here is my view. It seems to me that the Libertarian view gets a lot of play in Wikipedia, because a number of Libertarians write for Wikipedia. But it is a minority view. I don't have any figures about how many Libertarians there are, but my guess is a few million, as compared with more than a hundred million worldwide who consider themselves liberal. That would make the libertarians only about ten percent of liberals. If my data is wrong, please let me know. I would like more information on the subject. Rick Norwood 13:43, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
I've attempted a rewrite. The jargon about negative rights and positive rights is not something most people are familier with, so I've tried to explain the various views of what constitutes "rights". Also, the new material at the beginning was repeated later on, so I've removed duplication. Let me know if this is an acceptable compromise between the two points of view. Rick Norwood 14:14, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
RN to Bjsiders: There are, of course, various strains of Libertarianism -- for example some would keep tax supported schools, others abolish them. I think few self-avowed liberals would go along with all of the Libertarian proposals, most would probably go along with some of them. Rick Norwood 20:10, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
Rather than go around and around and get absolutely no where, let's have a poll.
Here's my suggestion. Who's in favor of an article that states the differences of the term 'liberalism', as opposed to confusing the different historical usages of the word 'liberalism' and making it appear to be the same thing?
Support
Oppose
Find question incoherent
Bjsiders said this:
"Since the term "liberalism" means so many things to so many people, and those specific things have changed over time and been assigned new names, this article might be best off as a summary of each with links to more detail. "American liberalism" is unique from "Canadian liberalism," which is completely different from "Enlightment liberalism" which is distinct from "classic liberalism" which is not the same thing as "social liberalism," etc. What do you all think of something like that? The scope of a term like "liberalism" is like trying to write one article that fairly and accurately captures all of its facets is fairly ambitious and may even be impossible."
I am saying the same thing that Bjsiders said. Different ideas exist about the term 'liberalism', by varying groups of people, in certain historical times. The article tries to combine all these different ideas and portay them as if they were one and the same thing. That's all I'm saying. Is that more comprehensible to you?
Who is in agreement with Bjsiders of rewriting the article as a summary of each concept of liberalism with links to more detail? Sha nnon duck talk 18:58, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
Support please sign ~~~~
Oppose please sign ~~~~
Comments
The intro to the article has changed drastically since yesterday however, there is still a huge and deliberate tendency to confuse classical liberalism with modern liberalism, and the two couldn't be further apart.
this sentence is not necessarily true and it's leading: Classical liberals often strongly object to this kind of liberalism, asserting that the freedom of private property takes precedence over the personal freedom that depends on health, education, and a place to live; they claim that private charity does the job as well, or even better. Real classical liberals (Jeffersonians of that time) did not revere private property. The whole thing is a bit confusing to me even.
this is complete invention and mind warp Broadly speaking, most advocates of liberalism seek a society characterized by freedom of thought for individuals, limitations on coercive power, especially of government and religion, the rule of law, the free exchange of ideas, a market economy that supports relatively free private enterprise, and a transparent system of government in which the rights of minorities are protected. In modern society, liberals favour a liberal democracy with open and fair elections, where all citizens have equal rights by law and equal opportunity.
modern liberals do not like freedom of thought as evidenced in so many ways in the past century. i.e. the creating of terms like 'negative liberty' or with laws like 'hate crime' type laws.
modern liberals do not like limitations on coercive power. They always call for more government intervention, not less.
modern liberals like the additions of bi-laws which tend to confuse the constitutional law, similarly to the way right-wingers, like the subversion of constitutional law.
modern liberals like a transparent system of government in which the rights of minorities are protected, classical liberals advocate individual liberties per Thomas Jefferson.
This sentence also "In modern society, liberals favour a liberal democracy with open and fair elections, where all citizens have equal rights by law and equal opportunity." That's nice, but classical liberals, (the Jeffersonians) wanted equal rights for everyone also. Sha nnon duck talk 17:42, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
Most of what passes for public discourse these days commits the logical fallacy of black and white thinking. People root for the liberals or for the conservatives the way they root for their home town team. One form this team spirit takes is that conservatives find the nuttiest liberal thay can dig up, and say, "liberals believe this". And liberals love the conservative nut cases. The important issues: war, education, jobs, global warming, government power and taxation -- are really too important to be decided on the basis of which team you root for. Rick Norwood 13:29, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
This article is about liberalism in its various variations and the debate now seems to be part of the big American confusion about liberalism. Classical liberalism is a form of liberalism not very much adhered by liberal parties around the world. This article tries to find the common ground between liberal policies worldwide, therefore it often uses the ideas inside the [Liberal International] or other global or continental liberal organizations (like CALD or ELDR). The member parties all uphold liberty as there primary goal, but they differ about the degree of government intervention necesary to have a free society. Now I continue with my holiday. Electionworld = Wilfried ( talk 13:57, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
Actually, the American Democratic Party is a founding member of the Alliance of American and European Democrats, which is clearly Third Way center-left. Justice III 12:35, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
Actually that's not true. It's the corrupt rotten to core game in town that never worked, never will. Grassroots activism is the game in town that does work. The only one that ever did. Margaret Mead. Sha nnon duck talk 14:12, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
Is their any citation of someone who is not him- or herself a self-declared "classical liberal" using the term "classical liberal" uncritically as their term for the tradition of Hayek, von Mises, the Libertarians, etc.? - Jmabel | Talk 06:41, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
The point Jmabel makes is part of a larger issue. There are a number of articulate, energetic libertarians writing for Wikipedia who would like this to be a Libertarian encyclopedia. They believe, sincerely and strongly, that the libertarian view is the correct one, and edit articles accordingly.
Of course, libertarian views should be and are represented in Wikipedia. More problematic is the rewriting of articles, using jargon such as "positive rights", "negative rights", "classical liberal" and so on, to assert that 1) the founding fathers were all classical liberals and 2) so-called liberals who are not libertarian, that is, who assert the existance of positive rights, are not liberals at all. This is POV and is unacceptable, but it takes a lot of time and energy to keep this under control.
Examples of this activity are currently going on in American Liberalism and in Family Values. Sadly, negotiating or discussing issues has prove to be a waste of time. Because I've been able to work with conservatives in the past, I have tried for many months to compromise, rewrite, work with mediation, all to no avail. The demands of the libertarians are non-negotiable. I would appreciate any help that non-libertarians can offer. Rick Norwood 12:39, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
P.S. I just discovered the astonishingly badly written new article Classical Liberalism which begins (sic)
Rick Norwood 13:03, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
I'd help but I'm also a libertarian so my contributions can't be trusted, apparantly. I wonder if there are any other Wiki policies that any of us need to review. Bjsiders 14:27, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
Good, good. We've worked well on difficult subjects together before, I really thought your tone on the libertarian conspiracy was casting too wide a net. Bjsiders 14:54, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
Your edit has greatly improved the article. It flows much more smoothly, now. Rick Norwood 12:17, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
How's that debate going? Has a consensus been reached? The Serbian version of this article became a Featured Article, why can't ours? Who knows somebody who knows how to read Serbian? Xaxafrad 03:06, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
Did classical liberalism really advocate free public education? I know a few classical liberals, such as Benjamin Franklin, favored free publicn education, but was this belief generally held by classical liberals?
No, contrary to popular belief, Adam Smith, the most classical liberal of them all, was in favor of progressive taxation. Rick Norwood 18:34, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
Sounds pretty progressive to me, though I see how it could be read two ways. Read one way, it says the greater the ability, the greater the proportion they pay. Read the other way, it says the greater the ability, the greater their proportion is. The ambiguity arises from the fact that a proportion can either be a percentage or a percentage of some whole. Rick Norwood 19:57, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
Dear friends, this section describes modern liberalism. To consider these elements not to be part of modern liberalism is not right. I doubt that our classical liberal friends :-) would agree with progressive taxation. Electionworld = Wilfried ( talk 21:02, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
To Intangible: Please read the article that you pointed me to in your last summary:
Classical_liberalism
Classical liberalism is a political philosophy that supports individual rights as pre-existing the state, a government that exists to protect those moral rights, ensured by a constitution that protects individual autonomy from other individuals and governmental power, private property, and a laissez-faire economic policy.
When I type 'modern liberalism' into the search box it brings me to
social liberalism
Social liberalism is a political philosophy that emphasizes mutual collaboration through liberal institutions. Social liberalism, as a branch of liberalism, contends that society must protect liberty and opportunity for all citizens. In the process, it accepts some restrictions in economic affairs, such as anti-trust laws to combat economic oligopolies, regulatory bodies or minimum wage laws, intending to secure economic opportunities for all. It also expects legitimate governments to provide a basic level of welfare or workfare, health and education, supported by taxation, intended to enable the best use of the talents of the population, prevent revolution, or simply for the perceived public good.
Modern liberals want lots of government control. classical liberals did and do not. Modern liberals tend to favor group rights, shown in their advocacy for special privleges for minority groups. Classical liberals advocate individual rights. This is rather well known and indisputable. What is your problem with my edits? OceanDepths 13:20, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
The way to settle edit wars is not by reverting, but by citing sources.
I've looked through a number of social science dictionaries, and do not find any that use the phrase "social liberalism", which is all over Wikipedia. When I google "social liberalism" the top two sites are both on Wikipedia, the third is on amazon.com for a book called "Porn Generation".
The standard term for this idiology seems to be "social democracy". Let's use standard terms whereever possible. Rick Norwood 19:18, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
Rick to Electionworld. I respect your opinion, but the uses of words that I quoted were not my uses or your uses but, according to a number of sources, standard uses. I would think, rather than revert sourced material, you would at least supply one reference supporting Intangible's definition of the phrase. I quoted two Ph.D.'s, who say that social democracy is a form of liberalism. You and Intangible say it isn't. Does that settle the issue in your favor? Rick Norwood 00:27, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
Rick, see the next section. Electionworld = Wilfried ( talk 07:36, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
Just some examples from my own library: Jan van Putten in Politieke Stromingen (translated: Political currents); J.W. de Beus and others in De ideologische driehoek (The ideological triangle) and Klaus von Beyme in Parteien in westliche Demokratien (Parties in western democracies). Most political litterature makes a difference between liberalism as the ideology of individual liberty and social democracy as a (my words) moderate variant of democratic socialism. It might be true dat in de meantime modern social democrats adhere to many liberal values, their starting point is not individual liberty. The same goes for conservatism and christian democracy, they share a lot of liberal values, but that does not make it part of liberalism. A year ago this article had a section Liberalism vs social democracy. It might be good to re-add such a section, with the remark that there are scholars (like the Ph.D.'s you quoted) that consider social democracy part of liberalism. The section had a time the following text
Your text was
BTW: I do not think this Dictionary made by Robert Drislane, Ph.D. and Gary Parkinson, Ph.D. with very short definitions of liberalism and social democracy, justifies adding this text in the intro of this article on liberalism. Furthermore, that definition of social democracy says only that modern welfare-state liberalism is closely allied to social democratic ideas.
But I hope we can work towards such a new section. For that section, it might be useful to use the interview on liberales.be [2] I googled with social liberalism (one of the first hits after wikipedia and affiliates among 135.000 hits) with Anthony Giddens. My conclusion is that in this economic field one can distinguish economic liberalism, social liberalism, social democracy and democratic socialism, which are distinct but each of them with overlaps with its neighbours. Electionworld = Wilfried ( talk 07:36, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
I do not agree with you that social liberalism should go away. It is an often used term to describe progressive liberals, especially in Europe. We can still use it. I like to have more soures, but this online dictionary is not a very useful source. I still think the intro is well balanced and doesn't need real alterations. What do you think about a section on liberalism and social democracy. Electionworld = Wilfried ( talk 15:53, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
"Broadly speaking, contemporary liberalism emphasizes individual rights as opposed to group rights. It seeks a society characterized by freedom of thought for individuals, limitations on power, especially of government"
Contemporary liberalism emphasizes group rights in the US., at least, (affirmative action). Modern US liberals don't like freedom of thought too much, apparantly, as they are the ones that push for hate crime laws. Modern liberals want more government interventon, not less. See Democratic Party (United States) or modern liberalism. OceanDepths 22:16, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
I Fully agree. Some weeks ago the earlier version of this part of the article made sense, but some recent edits by user:Intangible (which were reverted, criticized and then re-inserted by Intangible) have really inverted the order of what might be logically expected from the description of Modern and Classical Liberalism. It is quite obvious that "Modern", as well as "Social-" Liberalism emphasizes "group" rights much more than Classical Liberals and their comtemporary counterparts Libertarians, who are the ones that favor more individual rights as opposed to the Modern liberals' policies of "social responsibility", "public utility", "welfare", "special rights", "positive discrimination", etc, etc. Justice III 04:32, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
I fully disagree. I am a European social liberal and was active in social liberalism for some time. Social liberalism starts from the individual and wants the maximal possible liberty for every individual. But at the same time, social liberalism believes that starvation, poverty are not compatible with individual liberty. In order to ensure maximal liberty for all, government intervention is that view necesary. That doesn't mean that group rights are emphasized over individual rights: it is about liberty for every individual, not only for the strong and wealthy. Electionworld (prev. : Wilfried) ( talk 07:47, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
I'm not sure if your are saying that you agree with the original commentators that the section in question is not well written, or if you agree with the original commentators that liberals favor group rights over individual rights and oppose freedom of thought? Rick Norwood 20:41, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
Er, wrong. That is, btw, a straw man argument. Nobody said (at least I didn't) that "liberals" don't care a damn for individual rights as you implied, only that modern/social liberals strongly emphasize collective rights as a priority, whereas Classical Liberals believe that only by holding individual(or self-centered, or egotistic, as you wish) rights above "collective" ones can society be truly free. It is a difference of degree and specially method: how can personal freedom be best protected? Social Liberals say: "by compelling individuals by force of the law and social regulations so that, e.g. the banning of the right to racially offend someone will protect the rights of all potential victims. Oh, and the State must enforce it, off course!"; A Classical Liberal would say: "by maintaining by all means every single personal right, including the right to be stupid and discriminate against someone on the basis of color - and then facing by himself all the social and economic consequences for that (e.g., social pressure, demonstrations, boycotts, public loathing, etc.). The State need not meddle with that, since, for every right that is allegedly upheld by force, another one is taken away from society, and there comes a time when nobody knows where is the limits for state power are, which is the looming signal of authoritarianism, no matter how 'benign' it seems at first". Here you have the difference. And by the way, another point: both users Rick and Wilfried are avowed social-(modern-)liberals themselves, so that their objectivity on this issue is somewhat, say, disputable. This is nothing personal (please by no means take this as an offense, just a friendly suggestion), I just think that sometimes we should keep away from articles we are emotionally or ideologically attached to. I for one almost never edit articles on religion, since I know that as a radical secularist I would hardly manage to be fully objective, even citing external references. But as I said, this is only a suggestion. You have the individual right to edit it, even if taken collectively partisanship isn't a good idea here. I guess you get what I mean, don't you? ;) Justice III 04:56, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
Affirmative action, in the view of most of its proponents, and especially its liberal proponents, is not about "group rights". It is about counterbalancing the effects of discrimination. Taking African Americans as an example (probably the canonical example), you would find very few people (and most would be well left of liberals) who would argue, for example, that African Americans as a group are entitled to a particular number of positions in the entering class of a university or a particular number of union jobs. What liberal proponents of affirmative action say is that (1) we assume that African Americans are as capable as anyone else. (2) If they are not represented in roughly proportional numbers in universities or unions, then that is prima facie evidence of discrimination, whether by the institution itself or in terms of access to the resources by means of which people usually arrive in the institution. (3) It should be government or institutional policy to counterbalance thid discrimination. (4) The most efficient way to do so will vary from institution to institution, but is likely to include active recruiting of African Americans, possibly extending to remedial skills programs. Earlier forms of affirmative action also included plain old quotas, easier to enforce, in some respects, but the courts ruled it illegal. Still, even then the intent wasn't to create a group right, even if courts determined that had been the unconstitutional effect. - Jmabel | Talk 07:11, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
Since when are "progressive taxes" a major tennent of liberalism?
Roughly, from the time they were introduced. The argument in favor of a progressive tax was that without it the concentration of wealth produced an upper class that was hostile to the egalitarian liberal ideal. For more information, see progressive tax. Rick Norwood 13:50, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
I doubt that it is a typical liberal issue, since I am aware of liberals supporting flat tax. I wouldn't say that progressive taxes are an essentialium for liberalism worldwide. Electionworld (prev. : Wilfried) ( talk 19:39, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
That may be true, but in no way does progressive taxation define a liberal. Furthermore, a progressive tax system may be the only viable political option available as voters may be demanding envious satisfaction from the liberal politicians. ( CosmopolitanCapitalist 14:18, 16 August 2006 (UTC))
Monopoly may or may not be deseriable in a free market...it depends on several factors. But please do not confuse the idea of "free market" with anarchy. That is often done by those who wish to attack the free market. Free market does not mean a complete absense of an authority. (
CosmopolitanCapitalist
13:59, 18 August 2006 (UTC))
Seems this article deals with the American form of Liberalism, in the main. -- MacRusgail 14:48, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
How come?
Rick Norwood 18:27, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
Most liberals now oppose multiculturalism, while preferring pluralism. While a liberal society tries to be neutral generally, not all cultures are equally meritorious or noble, nor are all cultural inheritances and practices acceptable in a liberal society. For example, while different ways of preparing food enriches diversity, likewise forms of entertainment, those cultures that mutilate human genitals in no way can be approved or tolerated. Likewise, cultures that devalue women are limited in their expression of this cultural value, as a pluralistic liberal society insists upon equal treatment of all genders, at least in the public square. Thus, a pluralistic liberal society fosters and relishes variable modes of life and different cultural expressions within a liberal democratic structure, provided these variations do not harm others. Conversely, multiculturalism espouses a basic indifference and relativism to all cultures, when, in fact, not all cultures are equally valuable or relatively equal.
Uncited and opinionated. I would appreciate if someone else would edit this. Otherwise, I will feel free to remove it pending replacement by something citable. My strongest objections are to the phrases "not all cultures are equally meritorious or noble" "not all cultures are equally valuable or relatively equal." Pure opinion, in Wikipedia's narrative voice. No doubt the writer intends this to be read as favoring European and North American civilization. After all, not Europeans ever tried to kill or oppress anyone on a racial or ethnic basis. That's why there are so many Jews in Central Europe and why all the African Americans are descendants of free immigrants. Uh-huh.
As for devaluing women: women were denied the vote in virtually every Western country 100 years ago. If this meant that a culture were incurably illiberal, how does one then account for the subsequent spread of liberal democracy?
By the way, cultures don't mutilate genitals. That may be a cultural practice but it is not a culture. It is an abhorrent practice but, again, the West is not incapable of abhorrent practices.
Which really leads us to the point: there are illiberal practices, but it is very opionated to claim that there are inherently illiberal cultures. 50 or 60 years ago we in America were routinely being told that East Asians were incapable of democracy. Look at Japan, South Korea, and the Republic of China today. This claim about cultures, as against practices, is totally out of line.
I'll give at least 48 hours on this, probably more, but if someone doesn't turn this into something at least defensible, preferably something citable, I will feel very free simply to remove it. - Jmabel | Talk 03:06, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
I think more thought needs to be given about the many statements on this page that freedom/liberty is the most important common thread that links liberal movements through the ages. I don't think this is true, and I think it is based on a wrong etymological association between the words liberal and liberty. It seems to me that the main unifying principles of liberalism have been social progressivism and fostering a climate where the strong are happy to help the weak (although not under compulsion). This may imply a libertarian ethic, but the libertarian ethic is not what makes liberalism unique. Zargulon 02:41, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
Both of you are mistaken. The strong happy to help the weak is Christianity, not Liberalism. But there is plenty of commentary, by the founding fathers and others, about the need for the government to protect the ordinary citizen from the rapacity of the rich. Here is one easy counterexample for Hogeye: "I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies . . . If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around [the banks] . . . will deprive the people of all property until their children wake-up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered . . . The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people, to whom it properly belongs. Letter to the Secretary of the Treasury Albert Gallatin (1802) ; later published in The Debate Over The Recharter Of The Bank Bill (1809)" Thomas Jefferson Rick Norwood 01:32, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
I freely admit to being often mistaken.. but what non-authoritarian political movement doesn't espouse liberty as a virtue? Also I have a problem with the paragraph which begins with the etymology of the word liberalism.. it then mysteriously goes on to refer to the freedom-related writings of Livy, M. Aurelius, Machiavelli and Locke, all of whom predated the birth of liberalism as a concept, and who likely did not even use the word liberal (except of course the Latin authors who meant "generous"). Many other political movements could claim equal inspiration from these authors. I rather feel that paragraph has a sense of being about freedom, rather than about liberalism. Isn't the reader expecting something more specific there? Zargulon 09:13, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
Let me modify my stance slightly as a result of being educated by the encyclopedia reference you gave. What it seems from there is that one could legitimately say that the defining characteristic of liberalism is that restrictions to freedom must be explicitly justified.. that the burden of proof is on those proposing the restrictions. I acknowledge that this is the primary virtue of liberalism, and I don't claim that other political movements would say the same about themselves. However, the paragraph in the WP article which I referred to would be equally valid, if not more so, in an article on anarchism or libertarianism. From what I read, it seems to be misleading to say "liberalism is the belief in individuals freedom" but rather "liberalism is the belief that restrictions on individuals freedom must be scrupulously and individually justified by the state" (or something, your reference says it better than me). I withdraw my criticism of the reference to Locke .. I am still unhappy about Machiavelli, and the Roman authors even more. There is circumstantial evidence that the original writers of that paragraph were prejudiced by their mistaken view that liberal comes from the Latin word liber (free), which is how the text stood until I corrected it. Any thoughts? Zargulon 15:49, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
Hi Lucidish, that is very interesting. We edited at more or less the same time so I refer you to my contribution of 15:49 UTC. Zargulon 15:54, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
Zargulon, I agree that the Roman guys and Machiavelli were not liberal, and should be deleted. Lucidish, I think that anarchism is the radical branch of liberalism. There have been anti-statist branches of liberalism going way back, e.g. Wilhelm von Humboldt, Frederic Bastiat, Gustav de Molinari, Herbert Spencer, and Auberon Herbert. You note that "all classical liberals supported the existence of a government," but it should be kept in mind that the term "government" was not always intended to mean "State." For many liberal writers, "government" meant an organization which defends rights. Jefferson's use of the term in the US Declaration of Independence is perhaps the best known example. Albert Jay Nock made this distinction explicit in his book "Our Enemy the State." This Jeffersonian/Nockian meaning of "government" is totally compatible with anarchism, or at least liberal anarchism. I noted in an earlier version of the liberalism article that anarchism is a radical radical form of liberalism. Perhaps Thoreau put it best in "Civil Disobedience":
Hogeye 17:35, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
Our defining example of a Republic is the Roman Republic (not, for example, what Plato called a Republic). Livy is a primary source about the struggles that arise in any republic, in particular about the inevitable conflict between liberals and conservatives. Everything in Livy sounds as modern and up to date as Fox News. The conservatives are rich and maintain that property rights are the most important rights, and that religion demands that the old ways be preserved. The conservatives start foreign wars with the explicit aim of profiting from them personally, while distracting the mob from their demands for free grain, land, and equal rights. The liberals demand freedom, equal rights with the upper class, redistribution of wealth, a limit on the political power of the rich, and the right of the poor to hold public office. All of the founding fathers, in fact, every educated person (in Europe and America) in the 18th Century, had read Livy. Certainly both Locke and Burke assumed an understanding of Livy as a necessary basis for their own ideas. Machievelli, in "Discourses on Livy", was not defining a Republic but rather giving a realistic commentary on how a Republic actually worked, as contrasted with the idealistic nonsense usually spouted by politicians. It is a companion to The Prince, which did the same for autocratic government. Rick Norwood 13:06, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
The main difference between the Roman republic and the American republic is that in Rome people voted by tribe while in America they voted by state. In the Italian city states that had (small r) republican government, only male property owners could vote, but that was also true when the American republic was founded. If, as this article maintains, freedom is the defining issue for liberalism, then the many passages in Livy and in Machievelli about freedom are liberal in intent if not in name. In Rome, the primary freedom the plebians demanded was freedom to hold public office. They demanded it and they got it. Their first major success in this area was the establishmentment of the tribunes, who had veto power over the patrician senate. In Italy the primary freedom the people demanded was freedom from the direct control of the Pope. They fought for it and lost. Electionworld asks for secondary sources to back up my claims. Since I concentrate my reading almost entirely on primary sources, I'll have to wait for someone else to provide secondary sources. Rick Norwood 12:37, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
I've created a new article on the concept of liberal_neutrality as found in the works of Rawls and many other liberal philosophers, would be good if anyone could contribute to it as I feel this is a concept that needs an entry but currently lacks one. Cxk271 16:39, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
It looks to me like this whole section should be deleted. It implies that liberal opposition to theocracy and religion-based violation of rights is new. In fact, liberalism has been opposed to religious authoritarianism from its inception. The section alleges "a conflict between cultural toleration and the individual rights." In fact, liberalism has never condoned the violation of rights. It has never tolerated such aggression - cultural toleration is about voluntary conduct and beliefs, not aggressive acts. Rather than any deviationism, the section merely gives the modern equivalent of the fight against witch-hunts and torturing heretics. Hogeye 01:55, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
This talk page is getting huge and it seems to me somebody should archive it, but I don't know how and when this is done. Grand Slam 7 00:38, 8 October 2006 (UTC)