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Should the lead say that liberalism is based on, among other things: A "equality" or B "political equality and equality before the law?" TFD ( talk) 15:12, 8 November 2022 (UTC)
equality before the law. I'd call this option C. Gitz ( talk) ( contribs) 23:27, 11 November 2022 (UTC)
in the sense of denying that anyone is the natural subordinate of others. Otherwise, a generic reference to equality without further qualification will inevitably be understood by many readers as a reference to political equality (democracy) and/or substantive equality (social justice). While not incommpatible with liberalism, the ideals of democracy and social justice are not its defining features and have not been embraced, or have been esplicitly rejected, by many classics of liberalism. To put it simply: liberalism is not necessirly "democratic liberalism" or "egalitarian liberalism". The need to avoid this serious misunderstanding is a consequence of both UNDUE considerations ( WP:NPOV) and verifiability considerations ( WP:V), as none of the RSs we've seen so far present political and substantive equality as essential characteristics of liberalism. Gitz ( talk) ( contribs) 09:24, 15 November 2022 (UTC)
A representative article about liberalism says, "At the philosophical level, liberals have affirmed a commitment to the concepts of equality, liberty, individuality and rationality. They have been egalitarians in the sense of denying that anyone is naturally the subordinate of anyone else. This view does not entail regarding everyone as the same, merely that all human beings are of equal moral worth. Rather than seeking to guarantee an equality of outcome in the manner of some socialists, liberals desire that everyone should have an equal opportunity to deploy what talents they do possess on the same basis as everyone else." (Richard Bellamy, "Liberalism", p. 24, in Contemporary Political Ideologies, 2nd edition, ed. Roger Eatwell 1999) [1]
in other words, if liberals support political equality and equality before the law, they do so because they believe humans are equal hence have equal rights. But there is no agreement on what rights derive from the belief in human equality. Political equality for example developed gradually. Equality before the law does not necessarily apply to prisoners or aliens.
TFD ( talk) 15:23, 8 November 2022 (UTC)
I would remove any reference to equality from the opening sentence (save for "equality before the law"). From the viewpoint of political theory, egalitarian liberalism is a strand of liberalism, but not all liberals are egalitarian. See for example Richard Arneson, Liberalsim and Equality (2015)
[2]: Everyone equally possesses the core moral rights to individual liberties. On this point there is general agreement. Does the best, most compelling and appealing version of liberal doctrine encompass requirements of equality of other sorts? If so, which equalities matter? On these questions, opinions diverge widely
. For instance, libertarianism is a strand of liberalism that is not egalitarian.
Hayek was not an egalitarian, and with regard to liberalism and equality he wrote that Liberalism merely demands that so far as the state determines the conditions under which the individuals act it must do so according to same rules for all
("Liberalism" (1973), in Essays on Liberalism and the Economy, Volume 18).
From the viewpoint of the history of political ideas, 19th century liberalism usually opposed not only social equality, but also political equality, and liberals often supported census suffrage and were opposed to democrats, who were in favour of universal suffrage. The only type of equality that liberals have always upheld is "equality before the law", formal equality: equal rights for everybody (women excluded), in the limited sense of opposing ancient-regime social stratification, "status-based privileges", and not in the sense of favouring anti-discrimination laws or any legislation aimed at achieving substantive equality. Gitz ( talk) ( contribs) 01:06, 11 November 2022 (UTC)
. Gitz ( talk) ( contribs) 16:06, 14 November 2022 (UTC)Both Tocqueville and Burke were leery of equality but neither was an unqualified supporter of the traditional aristocracy of birth. Burke's fervent hostility to social and political equality arose in revulsion against the attack upon the nobility unleashed by the French Revolution ... Tocqueville sympathized with Americans like John Adams who believed in the need for a "natural aristocracy" of the propertied and educated, but doubted that democracy would tolerate any sort of aristocracy
— Lakoff, S. (1998). Tocqueville, Burke, and the Origins of Liberal Conservatism. The Review of Politics, 60(3), 435-464. doi:10.1017/S003467050002742X
The equality before the law which freedom requires leads to material inequalityand
the desire of making people more alike cannot be accepted in a free society.... Heyek opposed equal opportunity as a political goal and doubted that progressive taxation was compatible with liberalism. With regard to political equality (democracy), from the viewpoint of history of political ideals it's a fact that many 19th century liberals opposed universal suffrage (e.g., Benjamin Constant [7]). Many liberal theorists embrace democracy because it is instrumental to the protection of freedom: democracy has an instrumental value, not an intrinsic value to them, and therefore it can be limited to protect freedom (e.g., separation of powers and counter-majoritarian institutions like constitutional courts are defensible). Therefore in the opening sentence, I would mention only "equality before the law" and I would drop "political equality". Gitz ( talk) ( contribs) 08:53, 11 November 2022 (UTC)
I think that this set of tertiary sources (encyclopedias entries on liberalism accessible from Oxford reference) support option C. It is controversial whether liberalism is a political and moral philosophy based on equality and/or political equality. Equality is a core value in most contemporary interpretations of liberalism, but we cannot say in wikivoice that liberalism is based on equality. The distinction between "egalitarian liberalism" and "classical liberals or libertarians" is significant, and also the relation between liberalism and democracy (political equality) is not as straightforward as one could believe. Please feel free to enrich this list of sources and citations with other quality tertiary sources.
Definitions of liberalism from high quality
tertiary sources (encyclopedias). References to equality in bold characters
|
---|
|
Gitz ( talk) ( contribs) 12:30, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
Liberals were for greater economic equality, for internationalism, for freedom of speech and against censorship, for greater equality between the races and against segregation, for a sharp separation of church and state, for greater procedural protection for accused criminals, for decriminalization of 'morals' offenses, particularly drug offenses and consensual sexual offenses involving only adults, and for an aggressive use of central government power to achieve all these goals. These were, in the familiar phrase, liberal 'causes'. This works well for the US. But our definition of liberalism should embrace WP:WORLDVIEW. Gitz ( talk) ( contribs) 20:35, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
there is a tension between their belief in freedom and equality, I said that liberals often think that there is a tension between equality and freedom. The liberal thinkers who expressed this idea more clearly are Tocqueville and Nozick. The latter said that "liberty upsets patterns", which means that we cannot impose a theory of distributive justice (a "pattern") on society without undermining freedom: it's either free market or social justice, and he stuck up for the market. 2) I mentioned Modern liberalism in the United States because it is well known that Americans attach a special and more "left-wing" meaning to the word "liberal" than other countries. The word "liberalism" has different meanings in different contexts and is determined not only by the opposition to "conservatism", but also by the oppositions to "republicanism", "radicalism" and "socialism", so IMO liberal views on equality should not be taken for granted and stated with wikivoice. Gitz ( talk) ( contribs) 22:09, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
Both Toqueville and Spencer believed in equalityis a bit of an exaggeration, and that the theorists of absolutism and Rousseau are precursors of liberalism is also questionable. On a more general plane: I don't see the point of having a concept of liberalism so broad as to include anyone who doesn't believe in a social hierarchy based on blood - liberalism as the defining ideology of the modern age. A sensible definition of liberalism should not cover the entire field of reasonable ideas, that is, it must have discriminatory power: we must account for the fact that in modern times there are people who oppose liberalism without going around in armour fighting windmills. Gitz ( talk) ( contribs) 00:48, 14 November 2022 (UTC)
Tocqueville’s argument about how equality lowers human aspiration, and so threatens freedom), or here [12] (
Throughout his works Alexis de Tocqueville struggled with the tension between liberty and equality. It is a recurring theme ... he argues that democratic ideas and passions, especially for equality, will lead Americans to concentrate power). Gitz ( talk) ( contribs) 11:24, 14 November 2022 (UTC)
both Toqueville and Spencer believed in equalitywithout providing any sources, it's not OR - how is that possible? I'm not claiming that the notion of liberalism based on equality is "fringe". Richard Bellamy is an excellent political theorist. But I've provided numerous references from high-quality academic sources that show that his definition of liberalism as committed to the ideal of equality is not mainstream. It hardly applies to authors such as Tocqueville and Hayek, not to mention Burke, Spencer, Adam Smith and, in recent times, Nozick and the libertarians. That definition is acceptable only on the basis of a specific, peculiar notion of equality
in the sense of denying that anyone is the natural subordinate of others(Bellamy), which is not what one immediately understands when one reads "equality" - one thinks of social equality and political equality. So stating that liberalism is based on equality in wikivoice would be WP:UNDUE. I've already supported this claim with plenty of quotations, but here's another one:
Gitz ( talk) ( contribs) 22:53, 14 November 2022 (UTC)But equality, for classical liberals, means primarily 'equality before the law'. By this term, classical liberals understand that the law recognize each member of society as enjoying an equal standing, and hence an equal right to life, to liberty and to acquire and enjoy secure possession of property
— Conway, David (1998). Classical liberalism: The unvanquished ideal. Basingstoke: Palgrave Macmillan. p. 26. ISBN 978-0-230-37119-4. OCLC 759110181.
Someone needs to fact-check this article/definition; it is nowhere near the truth! If they believed in the things cited in this article, they would not have supported forced Vax, undermined churches, suppressed opposing views on Facebook and the media. 67.209.0.150 ( talk) 16:32, 14 December 2022 (UTC)
Trakiing has made a major edit of this article. In the hope of avoiding an edit war, I plan to consider each part of that edit carefully. In the hope that others will join me in this effort, I'll post here which part I'm working on. Today I will work on the part that begins on line 200. Rick Norwood ( talk) 20:27, 30 March 2023 (UTC)
I have finished my edit for today. I made no change to what Trakking wrote, only a minor edit of the previous sentence. Tomorrow I will take a look at the material under the heading Conservatism. Rick Norwood ( talk) 20:46, 30 March 2023 (UTC)
Thank you for your comment. Essentially, you grouped the material under the heading "Criticism and Support" into five subheads: Conservatism, Catholicism, Socialism, Social democracy, and Fascism. I look forward to reading them. This morning I plan to read the section under Conservatism. Rick Norwood ( talk) 10:46, 31 March 2023 (UTC) The grouping under conservatism seems entirely admirable. I was a bit startled by this claim, "Conservatives have also attacked what they perceive as the reckless liberal pursuit of progress and material gains, ... " but Koerner is reporting what conservatives say, not supporting their claim to be less interested in material gains than liberals are. Rick Norwood ( talk) 10:57, 31 March 2023 (UTC)
I appreciate your interesting comments. I tend not to be "ultra" anything, but then, I'm a mathematician.
This afternoon, I plan to look at the heading "Catholicism". Rick Norwood ( talk) 15:50, 31 March 2023 (UTC)
And the Catholicism section is very brief and to the point. I was tempted to add something about Pope Francis, but this is not the time. Maybe some other day.
I move on to Socialism. (I expected this to be much more controversial than it has been so far, and to require more input from other Wikipedians than it seems to require.) Rick Norwood ( talk) 16:00, 31 March 2023 (UTC)
And now I have finished editing the "Socialism" section. I have made extensive changes, but none to the edits of Trakking. Wisely, I think, Trakking did not try to fix the many careless mistakes of previous editors. I have made an attempt. Rick Norwood ( talk) 16:41, 31 March 2023 (UTC)
This morning I plan to look at Social Democracy. Rick Norwood ( talk) 09:48, 1 April 2023 (UTC)
Trakking removed this sentence. "Scholars have praised the influence of liberal internationalism, claiming that the rise of globalisation "constitutes a triumph of the liberal vision that first appeared in the eighteenth century" while also writing that liberalism is "the only comprehensive and hopeful vision of world affairs". [1]" But the idea is similar to the comment on globalization in the section on Adam Smith. Rick Norwood ( talk) 09:59, 1 April 2023 (UTC)
I made a few minor changes for style and since the Fascism section is very short, did the same there. This concludes my editing of this article under this heading. Rick Norwood ( talk) 10:43, 1 April 2023 (UTC)
References
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 10 | ← | Archive 14 | Archive 15 | Archive 16 |
Should the lead say that liberalism is based on, among other things: A "equality" or B "political equality and equality before the law?" TFD ( talk) 15:12, 8 November 2022 (UTC)
equality before the law. I'd call this option C. Gitz ( talk) ( contribs) 23:27, 11 November 2022 (UTC)
in the sense of denying that anyone is the natural subordinate of others. Otherwise, a generic reference to equality without further qualification will inevitably be understood by many readers as a reference to political equality (democracy) and/or substantive equality (social justice). While not incommpatible with liberalism, the ideals of democracy and social justice are not its defining features and have not been embraced, or have been esplicitly rejected, by many classics of liberalism. To put it simply: liberalism is not necessirly "democratic liberalism" or "egalitarian liberalism". The need to avoid this serious misunderstanding is a consequence of both UNDUE considerations ( WP:NPOV) and verifiability considerations ( WP:V), as none of the RSs we've seen so far present political and substantive equality as essential characteristics of liberalism. Gitz ( talk) ( contribs) 09:24, 15 November 2022 (UTC)
A representative article about liberalism says, "At the philosophical level, liberals have affirmed a commitment to the concepts of equality, liberty, individuality and rationality. They have been egalitarians in the sense of denying that anyone is naturally the subordinate of anyone else. This view does not entail regarding everyone as the same, merely that all human beings are of equal moral worth. Rather than seeking to guarantee an equality of outcome in the manner of some socialists, liberals desire that everyone should have an equal opportunity to deploy what talents they do possess on the same basis as everyone else." (Richard Bellamy, "Liberalism", p. 24, in Contemporary Political Ideologies, 2nd edition, ed. Roger Eatwell 1999) [1]
in other words, if liberals support political equality and equality before the law, they do so because they believe humans are equal hence have equal rights. But there is no agreement on what rights derive from the belief in human equality. Political equality for example developed gradually. Equality before the law does not necessarily apply to prisoners or aliens.
TFD ( talk) 15:23, 8 November 2022 (UTC)
I would remove any reference to equality from the opening sentence (save for "equality before the law"). From the viewpoint of political theory, egalitarian liberalism is a strand of liberalism, but not all liberals are egalitarian. See for example Richard Arneson, Liberalsim and Equality (2015)
[2]: Everyone equally possesses the core moral rights to individual liberties. On this point there is general agreement. Does the best, most compelling and appealing version of liberal doctrine encompass requirements of equality of other sorts? If so, which equalities matter? On these questions, opinions diverge widely
. For instance, libertarianism is a strand of liberalism that is not egalitarian.
Hayek was not an egalitarian, and with regard to liberalism and equality he wrote that Liberalism merely demands that so far as the state determines the conditions under which the individuals act it must do so according to same rules for all
("Liberalism" (1973), in Essays on Liberalism and the Economy, Volume 18).
From the viewpoint of the history of political ideas, 19th century liberalism usually opposed not only social equality, but also political equality, and liberals often supported census suffrage and were opposed to democrats, who were in favour of universal suffrage. The only type of equality that liberals have always upheld is "equality before the law", formal equality: equal rights for everybody (women excluded), in the limited sense of opposing ancient-regime social stratification, "status-based privileges", and not in the sense of favouring anti-discrimination laws or any legislation aimed at achieving substantive equality. Gitz ( talk) ( contribs) 01:06, 11 November 2022 (UTC)
. Gitz ( talk) ( contribs) 16:06, 14 November 2022 (UTC)Both Tocqueville and Burke were leery of equality but neither was an unqualified supporter of the traditional aristocracy of birth. Burke's fervent hostility to social and political equality arose in revulsion against the attack upon the nobility unleashed by the French Revolution ... Tocqueville sympathized with Americans like John Adams who believed in the need for a "natural aristocracy" of the propertied and educated, but doubted that democracy would tolerate any sort of aristocracy
— Lakoff, S. (1998). Tocqueville, Burke, and the Origins of Liberal Conservatism. The Review of Politics, 60(3), 435-464. doi:10.1017/S003467050002742X
The equality before the law which freedom requires leads to material inequalityand
the desire of making people more alike cannot be accepted in a free society.... Heyek opposed equal opportunity as a political goal and doubted that progressive taxation was compatible with liberalism. With regard to political equality (democracy), from the viewpoint of history of political ideals it's a fact that many 19th century liberals opposed universal suffrage (e.g., Benjamin Constant [7]). Many liberal theorists embrace democracy because it is instrumental to the protection of freedom: democracy has an instrumental value, not an intrinsic value to them, and therefore it can be limited to protect freedom (e.g., separation of powers and counter-majoritarian institutions like constitutional courts are defensible). Therefore in the opening sentence, I would mention only "equality before the law" and I would drop "political equality". Gitz ( talk) ( contribs) 08:53, 11 November 2022 (UTC)
I think that this set of tertiary sources (encyclopedias entries on liberalism accessible from Oxford reference) support option C. It is controversial whether liberalism is a political and moral philosophy based on equality and/or political equality. Equality is a core value in most contemporary interpretations of liberalism, but we cannot say in wikivoice that liberalism is based on equality. The distinction between "egalitarian liberalism" and "classical liberals or libertarians" is significant, and also the relation between liberalism and democracy (political equality) is not as straightforward as one could believe. Please feel free to enrich this list of sources and citations with other quality tertiary sources.
Definitions of liberalism from high quality
tertiary sources (encyclopedias). References to equality in bold characters
|
---|
|
Gitz ( talk) ( contribs) 12:30, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
Liberals were for greater economic equality, for internationalism, for freedom of speech and against censorship, for greater equality between the races and against segregation, for a sharp separation of church and state, for greater procedural protection for accused criminals, for decriminalization of 'morals' offenses, particularly drug offenses and consensual sexual offenses involving only adults, and for an aggressive use of central government power to achieve all these goals. These were, in the familiar phrase, liberal 'causes'. This works well for the US. But our definition of liberalism should embrace WP:WORLDVIEW. Gitz ( talk) ( contribs) 20:35, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
there is a tension between their belief in freedom and equality, I said that liberals often think that there is a tension between equality and freedom. The liberal thinkers who expressed this idea more clearly are Tocqueville and Nozick. The latter said that "liberty upsets patterns", which means that we cannot impose a theory of distributive justice (a "pattern") on society without undermining freedom: it's either free market or social justice, and he stuck up for the market. 2) I mentioned Modern liberalism in the United States because it is well known that Americans attach a special and more "left-wing" meaning to the word "liberal" than other countries. The word "liberalism" has different meanings in different contexts and is determined not only by the opposition to "conservatism", but also by the oppositions to "republicanism", "radicalism" and "socialism", so IMO liberal views on equality should not be taken for granted and stated with wikivoice. Gitz ( talk) ( contribs) 22:09, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
Both Toqueville and Spencer believed in equalityis a bit of an exaggeration, and that the theorists of absolutism and Rousseau are precursors of liberalism is also questionable. On a more general plane: I don't see the point of having a concept of liberalism so broad as to include anyone who doesn't believe in a social hierarchy based on blood - liberalism as the defining ideology of the modern age. A sensible definition of liberalism should not cover the entire field of reasonable ideas, that is, it must have discriminatory power: we must account for the fact that in modern times there are people who oppose liberalism without going around in armour fighting windmills. Gitz ( talk) ( contribs) 00:48, 14 November 2022 (UTC)
Tocqueville’s argument about how equality lowers human aspiration, and so threatens freedom), or here [12] (
Throughout his works Alexis de Tocqueville struggled with the tension between liberty and equality. It is a recurring theme ... he argues that democratic ideas and passions, especially for equality, will lead Americans to concentrate power). Gitz ( talk) ( contribs) 11:24, 14 November 2022 (UTC)
both Toqueville and Spencer believed in equalitywithout providing any sources, it's not OR - how is that possible? I'm not claiming that the notion of liberalism based on equality is "fringe". Richard Bellamy is an excellent political theorist. But I've provided numerous references from high-quality academic sources that show that his definition of liberalism as committed to the ideal of equality is not mainstream. It hardly applies to authors such as Tocqueville and Hayek, not to mention Burke, Spencer, Adam Smith and, in recent times, Nozick and the libertarians. That definition is acceptable only on the basis of a specific, peculiar notion of equality
in the sense of denying that anyone is the natural subordinate of others(Bellamy), which is not what one immediately understands when one reads "equality" - one thinks of social equality and political equality. So stating that liberalism is based on equality in wikivoice would be WP:UNDUE. I've already supported this claim with plenty of quotations, but here's another one:
Gitz ( talk) ( contribs) 22:53, 14 November 2022 (UTC)But equality, for classical liberals, means primarily 'equality before the law'. By this term, classical liberals understand that the law recognize each member of society as enjoying an equal standing, and hence an equal right to life, to liberty and to acquire and enjoy secure possession of property
— Conway, David (1998). Classical liberalism: The unvanquished ideal. Basingstoke: Palgrave Macmillan. p. 26. ISBN 978-0-230-37119-4. OCLC 759110181.
Someone needs to fact-check this article/definition; it is nowhere near the truth! If they believed in the things cited in this article, they would not have supported forced Vax, undermined churches, suppressed opposing views on Facebook and the media. 67.209.0.150 ( talk) 16:32, 14 December 2022 (UTC)
Trakiing has made a major edit of this article. In the hope of avoiding an edit war, I plan to consider each part of that edit carefully. In the hope that others will join me in this effort, I'll post here which part I'm working on. Today I will work on the part that begins on line 200. Rick Norwood ( talk) 20:27, 30 March 2023 (UTC)
I have finished my edit for today. I made no change to what Trakking wrote, only a minor edit of the previous sentence. Tomorrow I will take a look at the material under the heading Conservatism. Rick Norwood ( talk) 20:46, 30 March 2023 (UTC)
Thank you for your comment. Essentially, you grouped the material under the heading "Criticism and Support" into five subheads: Conservatism, Catholicism, Socialism, Social democracy, and Fascism. I look forward to reading them. This morning I plan to read the section under Conservatism. Rick Norwood ( talk) 10:46, 31 March 2023 (UTC) The grouping under conservatism seems entirely admirable. I was a bit startled by this claim, "Conservatives have also attacked what they perceive as the reckless liberal pursuit of progress and material gains, ... " but Koerner is reporting what conservatives say, not supporting their claim to be less interested in material gains than liberals are. Rick Norwood ( talk) 10:57, 31 March 2023 (UTC)
I appreciate your interesting comments. I tend not to be "ultra" anything, but then, I'm a mathematician.
This afternoon, I plan to look at the heading "Catholicism". Rick Norwood ( talk) 15:50, 31 March 2023 (UTC)
And the Catholicism section is very brief and to the point. I was tempted to add something about Pope Francis, but this is not the time. Maybe some other day.
I move on to Socialism. (I expected this to be much more controversial than it has been so far, and to require more input from other Wikipedians than it seems to require.) Rick Norwood ( talk) 16:00, 31 March 2023 (UTC)
And now I have finished editing the "Socialism" section. I have made extensive changes, but none to the edits of Trakking. Wisely, I think, Trakking did not try to fix the many careless mistakes of previous editors. I have made an attempt. Rick Norwood ( talk) 16:41, 31 March 2023 (UTC)
This morning I plan to look at Social Democracy. Rick Norwood ( talk) 09:48, 1 April 2023 (UTC)
Trakking removed this sentence. "Scholars have praised the influence of liberal internationalism, claiming that the rise of globalisation "constitutes a triumph of the liberal vision that first appeared in the eighteenth century" while also writing that liberalism is "the only comprehensive and hopeful vision of world affairs". [1]" But the idea is similar to the comment on globalization in the section on Adam Smith. Rick Norwood ( talk) 09:59, 1 April 2023 (UTC)
I made a few minor changes for style and since the Fascism section is very short, did the same there. This concludes my editing of this article under this heading. Rick Norwood ( talk) 10:43, 1 April 2023 (UTC)
References