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Does liberalism mean "equality", in the sense of "social equality" (when Adam delved and Eve span, who then was a gentleman?) or "equal rights" (I have a right to treat you with contempt, and you have an equal right to treat me with contempt). There is, obviously, more going on here than can be summed up in one word, and that's what the rest of the article is about. But the sources, many of them, say "freedom and equality", and the lead cannot put all the details into the first sentence. At the time "...that all men are created equal..." addressed the question of social equality, at a time when the European norm was the the nobility was born to rule, the peasant born to serve. Rick Norwood ( talk) 12:06, 19 August 2012 (UTC)
LiamFitzgilbert made a number of good edits to the article, but his change in the history section contradicts the lead and is not supported by sources. He wrote:
"The history of liberalism as a formal doctrine dates to the 19th century, however its roots are much older. The opposition to the absolutism of the sovereign in modern Europe was largely developed during the Enlightenment, with the French-language Philosophes such as Jean-Jacques Rousseau, as well as such thinkers as John Locke. However the earlier scholasticism of Spanish and Portuguese theologians of the School of Salamanca during the 16th century, also espoused what would later be regarded as "liberal" ideas, such as claiming it a moral obligation of the sovereign to respect certain fundamental rights of human beings. Even earlier precedents can be cited along similar lines, including various medieval charters (such as the Magna Carta), some advocates of Thomistic philosophy, going all the way back to principles of "natural justice" advocated by Aristotle."
Most people date the history of liberalism as a formal doctrine to John Locke, who lived in the 17th century. The lead mentions the Enlightment of the 18th century. Rousseau became an enemy of the Philosophes and is not usually included in their number.
The Concise Oxford Dictionary of Politics says of "liberalism" that "...it emerged from the conjunction of the Enlightenment, the Industrial Revolution, and the political revolutions of the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries." The same source says of Rousseau, "Rousseau provided a Romantic alternative to Enlightenment optimism". On John Locke (1632-1704), it says "widely regarded as one of the fathers of the Enlightenment and as a key figure in the development of liberalism."
The history section undoubtedly needs work, but it should not argue with the lead and the rest of the article.
Rick Norwood ( talk) 13:49, 3 September 2012 (UTC)
I seem to remember that at one point the history section began with a quote about freedom by Marcus Aurelius. I'm not sure when that was removed. However, while certainly liberalism is a part of human thought from ancient times, it only began to take hold after the industrial revolution. City people tend to be liberal, farmers tend to be conservative. Between the time of the agricultural revolution and the industrial revolution, more than 90% of the human race were farmers. Rick Norwood ( talk) 12:01, 6 September 2012 (UTC)
LiamFitzGilbert: I think you did the right thing when you self-reverted. People are really not reverting just to be reverting. We are all trying to improve the article according to our best understanding of the subject. Rick Norwood ( talk) 12:06, 7 September 2012 (UTC)
LiamFitzGilbert: Stop engaging in person attacks. The quote says what TFD says it says. Your personal attacks diminish your credibility as a serious editor, not his. Let's end this discussion and move on. Rick Norwood ( talk) 11:36, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
The confusion is yours, not his. The personal attacks are your, not his. Time to move on. Rick Norwood ( talk) 12:29, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
In addition to the 8 sources I already provided for my edits, I would like to draw attention to a couple more here.
Chandran Kukathas, writing on the "Origins of Liberalism", is worth quoting in full:
"So it may be best to start with an account of how liberalism arose. This may turn out to be no less controversial, since liberalism is a broad tradition encompassing the ideas of a great diversity of thinkers, from Locke to Tocqueville to Rawls... And because the noun liberal did not become commonly used until the nineteenth century there is also a problem of anachronism in any endeavor to identify liberalism's origins.
An important clue lies in the origins of the political label, "liberal" in the Spanish Cortes of 1810. The 'Liberales' were members of a parliament rebelling against absolutism... But, as Merquior notes, liberalism the thing is older than liberalism the name, for these ideas had their roots in older questions and disputes..."
"But we can probably go back a little further [than the Glorious Revolution of 1688] in European history to find the beginnings of liberal thinking. The Wars of Religion of the sixteenth century, in France in particular, generated some of the most important work on the idea of religious toleration, notably in the thought of Pierre Bayle. But even earlier, the conquest of the Americas by Spain had raised the issue of the rights of the Indians against the colonizing power. The writings of Francisco de Vitoria of the School of Salamanca, defending the claims of Indians... put forward political doctrines which were strikingly liberal in character, inasmuch as they asserted the rights of the individual conscience against the claims of political power."
"Liberal ideas... arose out of conflict and disagreement - particularly over religious questions."
- this is found in The Liberal Tradition in Focus: Problems and New Perspectives, Lexington Books, 2000. (p. 99) Edited by João Carlos Espada, Marc F. Plattner, Adam Wolfson.
Alan Macfarlane has written at length on the history of the development of capitalism and liberalism in Europe... "The roots of Capitalism, the research of Alan Macfarlane has shown, lie in....early Medieval Europe... Still, systematic reflection on economic development awaited the late 18th century. Drawing on Medieval works such as those of Salamanca," (p. 96), Michael Novak, "Free persons and the common good", Madison Books, 1989.
Jeffery L. Irvin, in "Paradigm and Praxis: Seventeenth-century Mercantilism and the Age of Liberalism" (2008) discusses the role Natural Law in Aristotle, Aquinas, and the School of Salamanca in the development of liberal ideas, with a focus on the economic dimension. (p. 36-40)
A good article is found in the French-language journal, Journal des Economistes et des Etudes Humaines, entitled: "The Political Economy of the Just Price: What the School of Salamanca Has To Say in the Age of Corruption", 2000, abstract can be found here: http://www.degruyter.com/view/j/jeeh.2000.10.2/jeeh.2000.10.2.1148/jeeh.2000.10.2.1148.xml
As does Ralph Raico: "The last flowering of this natural law tradition was in Late Scholasticism, commonly associated with the school of Salamanca, whose key theoretical importance is coming to be appreciated (Rothbard, 1995c, 1:81-88, 99-131; Chafuen 1986)." "Classical Liberalism and the Austrian School", Ludwig von Mises Institute, 2012.
LiamFitzGilbert ( talk) 05:42, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
LiamFitzGilbert: The problem with your rewrite is that it changes the emphasis of your source, ignores the many sources that stress that liberalism as an idea began before liberalism as a word, and contradicts the lead which says that liberalism as an idea began during the Enlightenment. The section on the History of Liberalism should begin with what most major sources begin with: Locke, The American Revolution, The French Revolution. It should include a brief mention of earlier influences. The religious wars of the sixteenth century could be a part of this. It can certainly mention that the word "liberalism" didn't come into use until a later date. You seem so wedded to your own words that you ignore what everybody else is saying. Rick Norwood ( talk) 15:49, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
Several editors removed an unsourced section in the lead comparing classical and social liberalism. I notice that references have now been provided. However it appears to use numerous sources in order to provide an interpretation not found in any of the sources. I notice that the first reference used is not supported by the source. Also, there is still not a source for the statement that "social liberalism is associated with communism". The purpose of the lead is to present a summary of the text in the article and this appears to be undue weight. I will therefore remove it. TFD ( talk) 08:30, 8 October 2012 (UTC)
I've rewritten parts of MeUser42's recent edit, in part for style, in part to bring them closer to the sources. Rick Norwood ( talk) 15:53, 8 October 2012 (UTC)
I have removed the pictures of U.S. President Barrack Obama and Liberal Democrats leader Nick Clegg from the article. They do not stand out as particularly liberal among their peers. Practically every politician in the UK and the USA is a liberal. Why would we choose to include these two over others?-- 178.167.145.43 ( talk) 01:42, 2 May 2012 (UTC)
President Obama is the leading liberal in the world today. The excuse for removing his picture seems to be that a) he's not a liberal and b) all US and UK politicians are liberals. That doesn't seem like a good reason. Rick Norwood ( talk) 19:48, 2 May 2012 (UTC)
What lasting impact Obama will have on Liberalism remains to be seen, but he has had a major impact already. Your objection to his picture does not seem to me well-founded. Rick Norwood ( talk) 12:56, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
I second earlier suggestions for making two different entries for liberalism, one for the European understanding of the term, and one for the American understanding of the term. "Liberalism" simply means different things in these places, and it is a hopeless cause to try to squeeze them into one article just because they have the name in common. The liberal parties in say Germany or Switzerland have very little in common with the American Democrats. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.226.163.15 ( talk) 18:46, 20 August 2012 (UTC)
There is certainly a problem with at least two distinct meanings for liberalism, but I must also add that there is more to the world than Europe and America. HiLo48 ( talk) 07:40, 21 August 2012 (UTC)
You mean one for American meaning and one for actual meaning. 129.78.32.97 ( talk) 06:25, 18 October 2012 (UTC)
This was discussed before but an editor has chosen to bring back the neoscholastic School of Salamanca into the introduction to the history section. I oppose the addition because it places undue emphasis on a minor detail, and introductions are supposed to summarize sections. Very few sources on liberalism mention the school. TFD ( talk) 17:49, 15 October 2012 (UTC)
Additional sources i've included not in the edit.
In addition to the 8 sources I already provided for my edits, I would like to draw attention to a couple more here.
Chandran Kukathas, writing on the "Origins of Liberalism", is worth quoting in full:
"So it may be best to start with an account of how liberalism arose. This may turn out to be no less controversial, since liberalism is a broad tradition encompassing the ideas of a great diversity of thinkers, from Locke to Tocqueville to Rawls... And because the noun liberal did not become commonly used until the nineteenth century there is also a problem of anachronism in any endeavor to identify liberalism's origins.
An important clue lies in the origins of the political label, "liberal" in the Spanish Cortes of 1810. The 'Liberales' were members of a parliament rebelling against absolutism... But, as Merquior notes, liberalism the thing is older than liberalism the name, for these ideas had their roots in older questions and disputes..."
"But we can probably go back a little further [than the Glorious Revolution of 1688] in European history to find the beginnings of liberal thinking. The Wars of Religion of the sixteenth century, in France in particular, generated some of the most important work on the idea of religious toleration, notably in the thought of Pierre Bayle. But even earlier, the conquest of the Americas by Spain had raised the issue of the rights of the Indians against the colonizing power. The writings of Francisco de Vitoria of the School of Salamanca, defending the claims of Indians... put forward political doctrines which were strikingly liberal in character, inasmuch as they asserted the rights of the individual conscience against the claims of political power."
"Liberal ideas... arose out of conflict and disagreement - particularly over religious questions."
- this is found in The Liberal Tradition in Focus: Problems and New Perspectives, Lexington Books, 2000. (p. 99) Edited by João Carlos Espada, Marc F. Plattner, Adam Wolfson.
Alan Macfarlane has written at length on the history of the development of capitalism and liberalism in Europe... "The roots of Capitalism, the research of Alan Macfarlane has shown, lie in....early Medieval Europe... Still, systematic reflection on economic development awaited the late 18th century. Drawing on Medieval works such as those of Salamanca," (p. 96), Michael Novak, "Free persons and the common good", Madison Books, 1989.
Jeffery L. Irvin, in "Paradigm and Praxis: Seventeenth-century Mercantilism and the Age of Liberalism" (2008) discusses the role Natural Law in Aristotle, Aquinas, and the School of Salamanca in the development of liberal ideas, with a focus on the economic dimension. (p. 36-40)
A good article is found in the French-language journal, Journal des Economistes et des Etudes Humaines, entitled: "The Political Economy of the Just Price: What the School of Salamanca Has To Say in the Age of Corruption", 2000, abstract can be found here: http://www.degruyter.com/view/j/jeeh.2000.10.2/jeeh.2000.10.2.1148/jeeh.2000.10.2.1148.xml
As does Ralph Raico: "The last flowering of this natural law tradition was in Late Scholasticism, commonly associated with the school of Salamanca, whose key theoretical importance is coming to be appreciated (Rothbard, 1995c, 1:81-88, 99-131; Chafuen 1986)." "Classical Liberalism and the Austrian School", Ludwig von Mises Institute, 2012. LiamFitzGilbert ( talk) 18:05, 15 October 2012 (UTC)
Their influence on the "classical school of economics" is less clear. Weren't the Catholic plantations in South American where the Native Americans had freedom from economic exploitation essentially communist? Rick Norwood ( talk) 22:55, 15 October 2012 (UTC)
"The basic rule—with some specific exceptions outlined below—is that you should not edit or delete the comments of other editors without their permission." Rick Norwood ( talk) 11:53, 18 October 2012 (UTC)
The article still needs work. In particular, the history section says that "Classical Liberalism" dominated liberalism after the French Revolution. The Classical Liberalism article says that Classical Liberalism dates from the 19th century, not the 18th. I'll research the question. Rick Norwood ( talk) 12:32, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
I know the meaning. Thank you for correcting my spelling. Rick Norwood ( talk) 16:56, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
John Milton? Marcus Aurelius? I feel like I'm in the twilight zone here... LiamFitzGilbert ( talk) 17:19, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
I have removed mentioning of Marcus Aurelius and John Milton both here and in History of liberalism on account of a lack of sources connecting them with liberalism. I have added a citation needed on the repeated attribution of John Locke as the sole founder of liberalism. He was no doubt important in the development of the concept, but he was far from the only thinker at the time championing liberal ideas. -- Saddhiyama ( talk) 12:20, 17 September 2012 (UTC)
(out) Your source says, "the Austrian School of economics...should be traced back to the works of the Spanish Scholastics.... In 1974, the great Austrian scholar Murray N. Rothbard first developed the thesis that the Austrian School is of Spanish origin.... Indeed, I think the greatest merit of the founder of the Austrian School, Carl Menger, was to rediscover and take up this continental Catholic tradition of Spanish scholastic thought, which was almost forgotten due to the negative influence of Adam Smith and his followers of the British Classical School." Obviously the author is writing about the influence of the Scholastics on the Austrian School which was founded in 1871, not its influence on pre-Austrian liberalism. BTW the "no shortage of secondary support in Spain" refers to a meeting in Spain of supporters of Austrian economics, reported on an Austrian economics website. TFD ( talk) 21:07, 18 September 2012 (UTC)
TFD and Rick, is there any statement to the effect that writers prior to Locke espoused liberal ideals that you would not object to? Can you suggest such an edit to which you would agree? —
Cupco
18:21, 20 September 2012 (UTC)
From what I gather, Wikipedia is based upon what reliable sources say - you don't get to cast aside sources for your own (ideological?) reasons. All you've been able to provide to justify your wholesale removal of a massive amount of sourced content, is a book by an English writer called John N. Gray, writing in a book published by the "Open University Press", in a chapter entitled "Seventeenth Century England". Gray refers to "debates" on dating liberalism in England back to the 18th century, or Glorious Revolution, or the English Civil War (saying such-and-such has been "argued convincingly", and refers to the Levellers, etc). Nowhere does he say he is making definitive historical statements of consensus, nowhere does he dismiss the significance or even mention of the Wars of Religion, or the physiocrats, or the philosophes, or the School of Salamanca, or Aristotle, et al. You're demanding that your very specific interpretation of one very specific paragraph of a relatively unimportant writer in a relatively unimportant book, serve as the sole basis of the historiography of liberalism. Whereas I have provided 14+ sources, from the most eminent academic presses, including some of the most highly regarded contemporary liberal thinkers (and articles that have appeared in peer-reviewed journals), for a much broader and deeper history on the origins of liberalism. LiamFitzGilbert ( talk) 12:04, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
I'm glad you found my comments heart-warming, LiamFitzGilbert. I agree that Puritanism was anti-liberal. I wish you had stopped there, and not gone on to insult TFD personally. The more we focus on what people say, and avoid speculating on their motives, the more progress we can make. Rick Norwood ( talk) 12:25, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
TFD: LiamFitzGilbert is being deliberately rude to you. I won't speculate on his motives, but it is best to ignore people who use rudeness in place of rational and informed discussion. LiamFitzGilbert: The World Almanac 2012: Switzerland: 42% Roman Catholic, a plurality but not a predominant majority. Netherlands: No religion: 42%, Roman Catholic: 30%. In both countries, Roman Catholicism is the largest religion, but not predominant. Rick Norwood ( talk) 12:01, 24 September 2012 (UTC)
All the sources provided have indicated that liberalism developed during the 17th century, with the two English revolutions. While liberalism is in the Western rational tradition, the selection of certain precursors is POV. The ideas of inalienable rights and equality before the law for example did not exist. While the School of Salamanca anticipated the marginal revolution of 1871, it had no influence on early liberal thought. No explanation btw has been provided as to how Aristotle and Thomas advocated liberal ideas. TFD ( talk) 08:19, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
I agree with you. A webpage is not a reliable academic source. I wonder if Michael Novak has ever read Ben Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, or Tom Payne. Rick Norwood ( talk) 15:12, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
LiamFitzGilbert: You keep claiming you have cited a large number of reliable sources for, for example, Aristotle being a major influence on liberal thought. The only source you have cited that mentions Aristotle is a dissertation by Jeffrey L. Irvin, Jr. Unless the material in a dissertation is later published in a refereed journal, a dissertation is not considered a major source of reliable information. Mr. Irvin's only other publication, as best I can tell, is the self-published "This Is the End: The Coming Apocalypse, the Culture of Fear, and the Fate of American Society". This does not inspire confidence. You have cited a lot of sources, but most are either published by the von Mises Institute or are, like Irvin, marginal. The views of the von Mises Institute are not mainstream views, and should not be given undue weight. Rick Norwood ( talk) 16:01, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
LiamFitzGilbert: No, you cannot cite a college dissertation as a reliable source and then demand that every editor either read the entire dissertation or else accept it as a reliable source. There is no idea so bizarre but that somebody has written their dissertation on it. The burden of proof is on the editor who wants ideas included: you must cite a reliable academic source (not a dissertation) and, if challenged, provide a quote from that source supporting the idea you want included. Rick Norwood ( talk) 14:28, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
Yes, LiamFitzGilbert, it is a novel request to expect people to read entire books. Consider: suppose I said, "You're wrong; here's a reading list." That would obviously be inappropriate. Also your comment "College dissertation?" puzzles me. Are you saying the cited work by Irvin is not a college dissertation?
In your recent revert, you bring up "The nearest coast of darkness". It was published by Cornell University Press, so I am willing to accept that it is a reliable source. But it is 24 years old and out of print. Please quote the passages that support the idea that early liberalism is based on Aristotle. I have no objection to the idea if there is a reliable source. But also note that Wikipedia stresses the use of the preponderance of evidence. Do most major writers on the subject trace Liberalism to Aristotle. Rick Norwood ( talk) 20:45, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
LiamFitzGilbert: Please show me where I rejected a source because I had not heard of it before. Please show me were I have ever rejected a source because it was on-line. Failing that, please stop tell me what I say. Rick Norwood ( talk) 11:54, 28 October 2012 (UTC)
I believe an article on the history of liberalism should include the history of liberal ideas prior to the 17th century. Two other editors disagree. LiamFitzGilbert ( talk) 09:06, 20 September 2012 (UTC)
This request is entirely off topic. The problem with your edit, LiamFitzGilbert, has nothing to do with whether or not liberal ideas before the 17th century should be included. The version you keep removing referenced liberal ideas before the 17th century, too. It is a question of emphasis, and of the mainstream over against writers on special topics. Rick Norwood ( talk) 14:33, 20 September 2012 (UTC)
Maybe I'm reluctant to work with you, LiamFitzGilbert, instead of just deleting your unacceptable edit, because you keep saying things like "without any discussion" even though I tried originally to discuss the topic with you and you responded with insults. Rick Norwood ( talk) 22:57, 20 September 2012 (UTC)
Since those of us who disagree with you read this and commented on it, copying it here is a form of shouting. Rick Norwood ( talk) 20:39, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
LiamFitzGilbert: Shouting "I'm right!" is still rude. You and I and TFD all agree that there are pre-17th century precursers of Liberalism. What we disagree about is who they were. Instead of shouting, all you need to do is provide evidence for your views. I've explained, patiently, I think, why the evidence you have offered so far is not sufficient. Rick Norwood ( talk) 11:51, 28 October 2012 (UTC)
The book cited by LaimFitzGilbert only uses the word "liberalism" twice. Neither of those uses support the inclusion of Aristotle as a major influence on Liberalism. Of course, Leo Strauss wrote a great deal about Aristotle. Maybe in another book he credited Aristotle as a major influence on liberalism. But we have not seen such a citation, yet. This endless revert war could easily be ended if editors avoided personalities and provided citations. I'm going to edit, but not revert, LiamFitzGilbert's most recent edit, in hopes of resolving this issue. I have also corrected two typographical errors in the quotation used in the citation. Now please, let's move forward, instead of reverting to the version with the typos. Rick Norwood ( talk) 12:13, 28 October 2012 (UTC)
LiamFitzGilbert: You are apparently willing to keep repeating that you have sixteen books that agree with your view, but you don't provide any quotes from any books that cite Aristotle as a major influence on Liberalism, and even if there are such books, most books on Liberalism don't mention Aristotle. The books that I have checked do not say what you claim they say. It is unreasonable for you to demand that I read sixteen books from cover to cover to make sure that none of them say what you claim. You must provide quotes to be taken seriously. I gather that you are away from your library. I sympathise. But listing minor books in support of major claims and listing as supporting references books that do not support your claims have not increased your credibility.
Somebody coming on this article without knowing what the discussion is about might be surprised to hear that the entire controversy, which has gone on for too long, has to do with just three points: 1) Is Aristotle a major influence on Liberalism? 2) Are the followers of Thomas Aquinas a major or minor influence on Liberalism? 3) Is the School of Salamanca a major or minor influence on Liberalism? You have yet to provide any evidence for 1. The evidence you provide for 2 and 3 has led me to include it in the article, but not in the lead. Your insistance that you are entirely in the right and that anyone who disagrees with you is entirely in the wrong, and your clearly false statements about what I personally have said, make it very difficult to work with you. Rick Norwood ( talk) 20:21, 28 October 2012 (UTC)
I'm a little disturbed that some editors seem to think they own the page. Obviously this is a significant political page so there may be a lot of contention but I think the way some editors have deleted multiple contributions has severely impacted the validity of the page. I looked up earlier discussions and it seems like the same editors (particularly The Four Deuces) have obfuscated huge issues.
The most simple way to solve this problem is to clarify and briefly explain the difference between classical and social liberalism. Even given editors obvious political clash their existence(!!!) shouldn't be contentious given that both ideologies have their respective Wikipedia pages. (I'm baffled how editors were routinely able to just delete my paragraph that points out something so integral). If we're concerned with the truth and giving Wikipedia validity this shouldn't have been such a large problem.
I've been looking at the history of this discussion. It looks like the editors attempting to add classical liberal material had to react to overzealous moderators. They tried obfuscating the issue by attempting to distinguish between European and American liberalism. The suggestion is that in America "liberal" refers to social liberalism while in Europe it refers to classical liberalism. This is an invalid distinction. In some European countries such as France liberalism means classical liberalism. Period. In England however we are slightly more aware of the American usage but we also have classical liberal think tanks such as the Cobden centre which advertises themselves as liberal. (Even though he has a think tank named after him, I think if I had tried to add material as advanced as Richard Cobden it obviously would have been censured). Not only that, we also have a history of classical liberalism in England called "Manchesterism" which some of us learn in schools simply as liberalism, however in Scotland liberalism is mostly taken to mean social liberalism, so there's clearly a distinction. Even if this page only applied to Europe the distinction between classical and social liberalism would still need to be made. But this distinction also suggests that the meaning of liberalism is ubiquitous in America. It isn't. In America liberal is used as common parlance for social liberalism, but you also currently have a huge movement that includes radical classical liberal doctrinaires (some of them anarcho-capitalist) that calls itself openly The Liberty Movement. In addition to this you also have multiple schools of economics that support classical liberal policies. From the Chicago School is notably Milton Friedman who many Americans may consider conservative but in an interview with Charlie Rose he denounced the term and called himself a liberal. Even more radically America is home to more Austrian economists than any other country in the world, all of them part of a continuing classical liberal tradition. This school of economics is called Austrian because the first four generations were born in Austria but during the political and ideological crisis of the Second World War the remainder fled to America. The most notable of these is Ludwig von Mises who wrote Liberalism a book burned in Austria by the National Socialists. (All this information has a place in the article and is crucial to distinguish between classical and social liberalism btw). This issue is also made more complex by the fact that English and American (but not continental) advocates of Keynesian policy also call themselves liberal. Paul Krugman being a notable example.
Quite frankly I think the clear prejudice of editors like The Four Deuces to dominate this page with the common American usage may be well meaning but it is completely invalid and is in effect nationalistic. The distinction between classical and social liberalism needs to be made right from the first line. Previous to the crisis of the first and second world war liberalism and it's history internationally referred to classical liberalism. Period. Now in America and some other countries it's unquestionable that being Liberal refers to social liberalism and is associated with the left wing progressivism. It is an egalitarian movement. Hence the very first line should read: "liberalism is a political philosophy classically concerned with liberty and progressively concerned with equality."
Now, I've included a very short paragraph which explains this distinction. I'm not going to bother changing the definition because I think it would cause too much grief, but my addition is fully cited with references to eminent historians and the most important economists of the 19th and 20th centuries. If people are concerned with the validity of this page I can also make other contributions as there is actually a reason for the confusion stemming from the philosophical history. Important figures such as James and John Stewart Stuart Mill (who I don't think are even mentioned in the article!) and many of the members of the British classical school for example could actually be described as social liberals. There is a complex historical relationship between classical and social liberalism that includes figures such as Anne-Robert-Jacques Turgot, Jean-Baptiste Say, Thomas Malthus, Adam Smith, Frédéric Bastiat, David Ricardo, Carl Menger, Karl Marx, Eugen von Böhm-Bawerk, Ludwig von Mises, Alfred Marshall, Joseph Schumpeter, John Maynard Keynes, Friedrich Hayek and Murray N. Rothbard. I fully recognise the right of everyone to contribute but I am a scholar on this exact subject and I would appreciate it if editors talked with me before simply deleting large contributions that I took the time to add. As it stands I think there is a clear and unqualified bias by editors only familiar with social liberalism and its really damaging the validly of the page. Social liberalism after all has only existed as liberalism in the last hundred years or so, so naturally this article is very confused. The whole history of liberalism up into the mid 19th century is a history primarily of classical liberalism, and if this article is valid it should reflect that. At the very least it should point out the proper reason for the distinction. For the past week editors have been deleting my references to the separate established Wikipedia pages. I don't see how this could be done unless the editors are deliberately trying to damage the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rothbardanswer ( talk • contribs) 16:21, 8 October 2012 (UTC)
Jake Rothbardanswer ( talk) 18:21, 8 October 2012 (UTC)
I neglected to sign my above subject "Classical and Social Liberalism both need to be explained. They are philosophically (not geographically) disparate". Always happy to chew out any problems. :) Jake.
Rothbardanswer (
talk)
17:10, 8 October 2012 (UTC)
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Does liberalism mean "equality", in the sense of "social equality" (when Adam delved and Eve span, who then was a gentleman?) or "equal rights" (I have a right to treat you with contempt, and you have an equal right to treat me with contempt). There is, obviously, more going on here than can be summed up in one word, and that's what the rest of the article is about. But the sources, many of them, say "freedom and equality", and the lead cannot put all the details into the first sentence. At the time "...that all men are created equal..." addressed the question of social equality, at a time when the European norm was the the nobility was born to rule, the peasant born to serve. Rick Norwood ( talk) 12:06, 19 August 2012 (UTC)
LiamFitzgilbert made a number of good edits to the article, but his change in the history section contradicts the lead and is not supported by sources. He wrote:
"The history of liberalism as a formal doctrine dates to the 19th century, however its roots are much older. The opposition to the absolutism of the sovereign in modern Europe was largely developed during the Enlightenment, with the French-language Philosophes such as Jean-Jacques Rousseau, as well as such thinkers as John Locke. However the earlier scholasticism of Spanish and Portuguese theologians of the School of Salamanca during the 16th century, also espoused what would later be regarded as "liberal" ideas, such as claiming it a moral obligation of the sovereign to respect certain fundamental rights of human beings. Even earlier precedents can be cited along similar lines, including various medieval charters (such as the Magna Carta), some advocates of Thomistic philosophy, going all the way back to principles of "natural justice" advocated by Aristotle."
Most people date the history of liberalism as a formal doctrine to John Locke, who lived in the 17th century. The lead mentions the Enlightment of the 18th century. Rousseau became an enemy of the Philosophes and is not usually included in their number.
The Concise Oxford Dictionary of Politics says of "liberalism" that "...it emerged from the conjunction of the Enlightenment, the Industrial Revolution, and the political revolutions of the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries." The same source says of Rousseau, "Rousseau provided a Romantic alternative to Enlightenment optimism". On John Locke (1632-1704), it says "widely regarded as one of the fathers of the Enlightenment and as a key figure in the development of liberalism."
The history section undoubtedly needs work, but it should not argue with the lead and the rest of the article.
Rick Norwood ( talk) 13:49, 3 September 2012 (UTC)
I seem to remember that at one point the history section began with a quote about freedom by Marcus Aurelius. I'm not sure when that was removed. However, while certainly liberalism is a part of human thought from ancient times, it only began to take hold after the industrial revolution. City people tend to be liberal, farmers tend to be conservative. Between the time of the agricultural revolution and the industrial revolution, more than 90% of the human race were farmers. Rick Norwood ( talk) 12:01, 6 September 2012 (UTC)
LiamFitzGilbert: I think you did the right thing when you self-reverted. People are really not reverting just to be reverting. We are all trying to improve the article according to our best understanding of the subject. Rick Norwood ( talk) 12:06, 7 September 2012 (UTC)
LiamFitzGilbert: Stop engaging in person attacks. The quote says what TFD says it says. Your personal attacks diminish your credibility as a serious editor, not his. Let's end this discussion and move on. Rick Norwood ( talk) 11:36, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
The confusion is yours, not his. The personal attacks are your, not his. Time to move on. Rick Norwood ( talk) 12:29, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
In addition to the 8 sources I already provided for my edits, I would like to draw attention to a couple more here.
Chandran Kukathas, writing on the "Origins of Liberalism", is worth quoting in full:
"So it may be best to start with an account of how liberalism arose. This may turn out to be no less controversial, since liberalism is a broad tradition encompassing the ideas of a great diversity of thinkers, from Locke to Tocqueville to Rawls... And because the noun liberal did not become commonly used until the nineteenth century there is also a problem of anachronism in any endeavor to identify liberalism's origins.
An important clue lies in the origins of the political label, "liberal" in the Spanish Cortes of 1810. The 'Liberales' were members of a parliament rebelling against absolutism... But, as Merquior notes, liberalism the thing is older than liberalism the name, for these ideas had their roots in older questions and disputes..."
"But we can probably go back a little further [than the Glorious Revolution of 1688] in European history to find the beginnings of liberal thinking. The Wars of Religion of the sixteenth century, in France in particular, generated some of the most important work on the idea of religious toleration, notably in the thought of Pierre Bayle. But even earlier, the conquest of the Americas by Spain had raised the issue of the rights of the Indians against the colonizing power. The writings of Francisco de Vitoria of the School of Salamanca, defending the claims of Indians... put forward political doctrines which were strikingly liberal in character, inasmuch as they asserted the rights of the individual conscience against the claims of political power."
"Liberal ideas... arose out of conflict and disagreement - particularly over religious questions."
- this is found in The Liberal Tradition in Focus: Problems and New Perspectives, Lexington Books, 2000. (p. 99) Edited by João Carlos Espada, Marc F. Plattner, Adam Wolfson.
Alan Macfarlane has written at length on the history of the development of capitalism and liberalism in Europe... "The roots of Capitalism, the research of Alan Macfarlane has shown, lie in....early Medieval Europe... Still, systematic reflection on economic development awaited the late 18th century. Drawing on Medieval works such as those of Salamanca," (p. 96), Michael Novak, "Free persons and the common good", Madison Books, 1989.
Jeffery L. Irvin, in "Paradigm and Praxis: Seventeenth-century Mercantilism and the Age of Liberalism" (2008) discusses the role Natural Law in Aristotle, Aquinas, and the School of Salamanca in the development of liberal ideas, with a focus on the economic dimension. (p. 36-40)
A good article is found in the French-language journal, Journal des Economistes et des Etudes Humaines, entitled: "The Political Economy of the Just Price: What the School of Salamanca Has To Say in the Age of Corruption", 2000, abstract can be found here: http://www.degruyter.com/view/j/jeeh.2000.10.2/jeeh.2000.10.2.1148/jeeh.2000.10.2.1148.xml
As does Ralph Raico: "The last flowering of this natural law tradition was in Late Scholasticism, commonly associated with the school of Salamanca, whose key theoretical importance is coming to be appreciated (Rothbard, 1995c, 1:81-88, 99-131; Chafuen 1986)." "Classical Liberalism and the Austrian School", Ludwig von Mises Institute, 2012.
LiamFitzGilbert ( talk) 05:42, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
LiamFitzGilbert: The problem with your rewrite is that it changes the emphasis of your source, ignores the many sources that stress that liberalism as an idea began before liberalism as a word, and contradicts the lead which says that liberalism as an idea began during the Enlightenment. The section on the History of Liberalism should begin with what most major sources begin with: Locke, The American Revolution, The French Revolution. It should include a brief mention of earlier influences. The religious wars of the sixteenth century could be a part of this. It can certainly mention that the word "liberalism" didn't come into use until a later date. You seem so wedded to your own words that you ignore what everybody else is saying. Rick Norwood ( talk) 15:49, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
Several editors removed an unsourced section in the lead comparing classical and social liberalism. I notice that references have now been provided. However it appears to use numerous sources in order to provide an interpretation not found in any of the sources. I notice that the first reference used is not supported by the source. Also, there is still not a source for the statement that "social liberalism is associated with communism". The purpose of the lead is to present a summary of the text in the article and this appears to be undue weight. I will therefore remove it. TFD ( talk) 08:30, 8 October 2012 (UTC)
I've rewritten parts of MeUser42's recent edit, in part for style, in part to bring them closer to the sources. Rick Norwood ( talk) 15:53, 8 October 2012 (UTC)
I have removed the pictures of U.S. President Barrack Obama and Liberal Democrats leader Nick Clegg from the article. They do not stand out as particularly liberal among their peers. Practically every politician in the UK and the USA is a liberal. Why would we choose to include these two over others?-- 178.167.145.43 ( talk) 01:42, 2 May 2012 (UTC)
President Obama is the leading liberal in the world today. The excuse for removing his picture seems to be that a) he's not a liberal and b) all US and UK politicians are liberals. That doesn't seem like a good reason. Rick Norwood ( talk) 19:48, 2 May 2012 (UTC)
What lasting impact Obama will have on Liberalism remains to be seen, but he has had a major impact already. Your objection to his picture does not seem to me well-founded. Rick Norwood ( talk) 12:56, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
I second earlier suggestions for making two different entries for liberalism, one for the European understanding of the term, and one for the American understanding of the term. "Liberalism" simply means different things in these places, and it is a hopeless cause to try to squeeze them into one article just because they have the name in common. The liberal parties in say Germany or Switzerland have very little in common with the American Democrats. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.226.163.15 ( talk) 18:46, 20 August 2012 (UTC)
There is certainly a problem with at least two distinct meanings for liberalism, but I must also add that there is more to the world than Europe and America. HiLo48 ( talk) 07:40, 21 August 2012 (UTC)
You mean one for American meaning and one for actual meaning. 129.78.32.97 ( talk) 06:25, 18 October 2012 (UTC)
This was discussed before but an editor has chosen to bring back the neoscholastic School of Salamanca into the introduction to the history section. I oppose the addition because it places undue emphasis on a minor detail, and introductions are supposed to summarize sections. Very few sources on liberalism mention the school. TFD ( talk) 17:49, 15 October 2012 (UTC)
Additional sources i've included not in the edit.
In addition to the 8 sources I already provided for my edits, I would like to draw attention to a couple more here.
Chandran Kukathas, writing on the "Origins of Liberalism", is worth quoting in full:
"So it may be best to start with an account of how liberalism arose. This may turn out to be no less controversial, since liberalism is a broad tradition encompassing the ideas of a great diversity of thinkers, from Locke to Tocqueville to Rawls... And because the noun liberal did not become commonly used until the nineteenth century there is also a problem of anachronism in any endeavor to identify liberalism's origins.
An important clue lies in the origins of the political label, "liberal" in the Spanish Cortes of 1810. The 'Liberales' were members of a parliament rebelling against absolutism... But, as Merquior notes, liberalism the thing is older than liberalism the name, for these ideas had their roots in older questions and disputes..."
"But we can probably go back a little further [than the Glorious Revolution of 1688] in European history to find the beginnings of liberal thinking. The Wars of Religion of the sixteenth century, in France in particular, generated some of the most important work on the idea of religious toleration, notably in the thought of Pierre Bayle. But even earlier, the conquest of the Americas by Spain had raised the issue of the rights of the Indians against the colonizing power. The writings of Francisco de Vitoria of the School of Salamanca, defending the claims of Indians... put forward political doctrines which were strikingly liberal in character, inasmuch as they asserted the rights of the individual conscience against the claims of political power."
"Liberal ideas... arose out of conflict and disagreement - particularly over religious questions."
- this is found in The Liberal Tradition in Focus: Problems and New Perspectives, Lexington Books, 2000. (p. 99) Edited by João Carlos Espada, Marc F. Plattner, Adam Wolfson.
Alan Macfarlane has written at length on the history of the development of capitalism and liberalism in Europe... "The roots of Capitalism, the research of Alan Macfarlane has shown, lie in....early Medieval Europe... Still, systematic reflection on economic development awaited the late 18th century. Drawing on Medieval works such as those of Salamanca," (p. 96), Michael Novak, "Free persons and the common good", Madison Books, 1989.
Jeffery L. Irvin, in "Paradigm and Praxis: Seventeenth-century Mercantilism and the Age of Liberalism" (2008) discusses the role Natural Law in Aristotle, Aquinas, and the School of Salamanca in the development of liberal ideas, with a focus on the economic dimension. (p. 36-40)
A good article is found in the French-language journal, Journal des Economistes et des Etudes Humaines, entitled: "The Political Economy of the Just Price: What the School of Salamanca Has To Say in the Age of Corruption", 2000, abstract can be found here: http://www.degruyter.com/view/j/jeeh.2000.10.2/jeeh.2000.10.2.1148/jeeh.2000.10.2.1148.xml
As does Ralph Raico: "The last flowering of this natural law tradition was in Late Scholasticism, commonly associated with the school of Salamanca, whose key theoretical importance is coming to be appreciated (Rothbard, 1995c, 1:81-88, 99-131; Chafuen 1986)." "Classical Liberalism and the Austrian School", Ludwig von Mises Institute, 2012. LiamFitzGilbert ( talk) 18:05, 15 October 2012 (UTC)
Their influence on the "classical school of economics" is less clear. Weren't the Catholic plantations in South American where the Native Americans had freedom from economic exploitation essentially communist? Rick Norwood ( talk) 22:55, 15 October 2012 (UTC)
"The basic rule—with some specific exceptions outlined below—is that you should not edit or delete the comments of other editors without their permission." Rick Norwood ( talk) 11:53, 18 October 2012 (UTC)
The article still needs work. In particular, the history section says that "Classical Liberalism" dominated liberalism after the French Revolution. The Classical Liberalism article says that Classical Liberalism dates from the 19th century, not the 18th. I'll research the question. Rick Norwood ( talk) 12:32, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
I know the meaning. Thank you for correcting my spelling. Rick Norwood ( talk) 16:56, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
John Milton? Marcus Aurelius? I feel like I'm in the twilight zone here... LiamFitzGilbert ( talk) 17:19, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
I have removed mentioning of Marcus Aurelius and John Milton both here and in History of liberalism on account of a lack of sources connecting them with liberalism. I have added a citation needed on the repeated attribution of John Locke as the sole founder of liberalism. He was no doubt important in the development of the concept, but he was far from the only thinker at the time championing liberal ideas. -- Saddhiyama ( talk) 12:20, 17 September 2012 (UTC)
(out) Your source says, "the Austrian School of economics...should be traced back to the works of the Spanish Scholastics.... In 1974, the great Austrian scholar Murray N. Rothbard first developed the thesis that the Austrian School is of Spanish origin.... Indeed, I think the greatest merit of the founder of the Austrian School, Carl Menger, was to rediscover and take up this continental Catholic tradition of Spanish scholastic thought, which was almost forgotten due to the negative influence of Adam Smith and his followers of the British Classical School." Obviously the author is writing about the influence of the Scholastics on the Austrian School which was founded in 1871, not its influence on pre-Austrian liberalism. BTW the "no shortage of secondary support in Spain" refers to a meeting in Spain of supporters of Austrian economics, reported on an Austrian economics website. TFD ( talk) 21:07, 18 September 2012 (UTC)
TFD and Rick, is there any statement to the effect that writers prior to Locke espoused liberal ideals that you would not object to? Can you suggest such an edit to which you would agree? —
Cupco
18:21, 20 September 2012 (UTC)
From what I gather, Wikipedia is based upon what reliable sources say - you don't get to cast aside sources for your own (ideological?) reasons. All you've been able to provide to justify your wholesale removal of a massive amount of sourced content, is a book by an English writer called John N. Gray, writing in a book published by the "Open University Press", in a chapter entitled "Seventeenth Century England". Gray refers to "debates" on dating liberalism in England back to the 18th century, or Glorious Revolution, or the English Civil War (saying such-and-such has been "argued convincingly", and refers to the Levellers, etc). Nowhere does he say he is making definitive historical statements of consensus, nowhere does he dismiss the significance or even mention of the Wars of Religion, or the physiocrats, or the philosophes, or the School of Salamanca, or Aristotle, et al. You're demanding that your very specific interpretation of one very specific paragraph of a relatively unimportant writer in a relatively unimportant book, serve as the sole basis of the historiography of liberalism. Whereas I have provided 14+ sources, from the most eminent academic presses, including some of the most highly regarded contemporary liberal thinkers (and articles that have appeared in peer-reviewed journals), for a much broader and deeper history on the origins of liberalism. LiamFitzGilbert ( talk) 12:04, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
I'm glad you found my comments heart-warming, LiamFitzGilbert. I agree that Puritanism was anti-liberal. I wish you had stopped there, and not gone on to insult TFD personally. The more we focus on what people say, and avoid speculating on their motives, the more progress we can make. Rick Norwood ( talk) 12:25, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
TFD: LiamFitzGilbert is being deliberately rude to you. I won't speculate on his motives, but it is best to ignore people who use rudeness in place of rational and informed discussion. LiamFitzGilbert: The World Almanac 2012: Switzerland: 42% Roman Catholic, a plurality but not a predominant majority. Netherlands: No religion: 42%, Roman Catholic: 30%. In both countries, Roman Catholicism is the largest religion, but not predominant. Rick Norwood ( talk) 12:01, 24 September 2012 (UTC)
All the sources provided have indicated that liberalism developed during the 17th century, with the two English revolutions. While liberalism is in the Western rational tradition, the selection of certain precursors is POV. The ideas of inalienable rights and equality before the law for example did not exist. While the School of Salamanca anticipated the marginal revolution of 1871, it had no influence on early liberal thought. No explanation btw has been provided as to how Aristotle and Thomas advocated liberal ideas. TFD ( talk) 08:19, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
I agree with you. A webpage is not a reliable academic source. I wonder if Michael Novak has ever read Ben Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, or Tom Payne. Rick Norwood ( talk) 15:12, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
LiamFitzGilbert: You keep claiming you have cited a large number of reliable sources for, for example, Aristotle being a major influence on liberal thought. The only source you have cited that mentions Aristotle is a dissertation by Jeffrey L. Irvin, Jr. Unless the material in a dissertation is later published in a refereed journal, a dissertation is not considered a major source of reliable information. Mr. Irvin's only other publication, as best I can tell, is the self-published "This Is the End: The Coming Apocalypse, the Culture of Fear, and the Fate of American Society". This does not inspire confidence. You have cited a lot of sources, but most are either published by the von Mises Institute or are, like Irvin, marginal. The views of the von Mises Institute are not mainstream views, and should not be given undue weight. Rick Norwood ( talk) 16:01, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
LiamFitzGilbert: No, you cannot cite a college dissertation as a reliable source and then demand that every editor either read the entire dissertation or else accept it as a reliable source. There is no idea so bizarre but that somebody has written their dissertation on it. The burden of proof is on the editor who wants ideas included: you must cite a reliable academic source (not a dissertation) and, if challenged, provide a quote from that source supporting the idea you want included. Rick Norwood ( talk) 14:28, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
Yes, LiamFitzGilbert, it is a novel request to expect people to read entire books. Consider: suppose I said, "You're wrong; here's a reading list." That would obviously be inappropriate. Also your comment "College dissertation?" puzzles me. Are you saying the cited work by Irvin is not a college dissertation?
In your recent revert, you bring up "The nearest coast of darkness". It was published by Cornell University Press, so I am willing to accept that it is a reliable source. But it is 24 years old and out of print. Please quote the passages that support the idea that early liberalism is based on Aristotle. I have no objection to the idea if there is a reliable source. But also note that Wikipedia stresses the use of the preponderance of evidence. Do most major writers on the subject trace Liberalism to Aristotle. Rick Norwood ( talk) 20:45, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
LiamFitzGilbert: Please show me where I rejected a source because I had not heard of it before. Please show me were I have ever rejected a source because it was on-line. Failing that, please stop tell me what I say. Rick Norwood ( talk) 11:54, 28 October 2012 (UTC)
I believe an article on the history of liberalism should include the history of liberal ideas prior to the 17th century. Two other editors disagree. LiamFitzGilbert ( talk) 09:06, 20 September 2012 (UTC)
This request is entirely off topic. The problem with your edit, LiamFitzGilbert, has nothing to do with whether or not liberal ideas before the 17th century should be included. The version you keep removing referenced liberal ideas before the 17th century, too. It is a question of emphasis, and of the mainstream over against writers on special topics. Rick Norwood ( talk) 14:33, 20 September 2012 (UTC)
Maybe I'm reluctant to work with you, LiamFitzGilbert, instead of just deleting your unacceptable edit, because you keep saying things like "without any discussion" even though I tried originally to discuss the topic with you and you responded with insults. Rick Norwood ( talk) 22:57, 20 September 2012 (UTC)
Since those of us who disagree with you read this and commented on it, copying it here is a form of shouting. Rick Norwood ( talk) 20:39, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
LiamFitzGilbert: Shouting "I'm right!" is still rude. You and I and TFD all agree that there are pre-17th century precursers of Liberalism. What we disagree about is who they were. Instead of shouting, all you need to do is provide evidence for your views. I've explained, patiently, I think, why the evidence you have offered so far is not sufficient. Rick Norwood ( talk) 11:51, 28 October 2012 (UTC)
The book cited by LaimFitzGilbert only uses the word "liberalism" twice. Neither of those uses support the inclusion of Aristotle as a major influence on Liberalism. Of course, Leo Strauss wrote a great deal about Aristotle. Maybe in another book he credited Aristotle as a major influence on liberalism. But we have not seen such a citation, yet. This endless revert war could easily be ended if editors avoided personalities and provided citations. I'm going to edit, but not revert, LiamFitzGilbert's most recent edit, in hopes of resolving this issue. I have also corrected two typographical errors in the quotation used in the citation. Now please, let's move forward, instead of reverting to the version with the typos. Rick Norwood ( talk) 12:13, 28 October 2012 (UTC)
LiamFitzGilbert: You are apparently willing to keep repeating that you have sixteen books that agree with your view, but you don't provide any quotes from any books that cite Aristotle as a major influence on Liberalism, and even if there are such books, most books on Liberalism don't mention Aristotle. The books that I have checked do not say what you claim they say. It is unreasonable for you to demand that I read sixteen books from cover to cover to make sure that none of them say what you claim. You must provide quotes to be taken seriously. I gather that you are away from your library. I sympathise. But listing minor books in support of major claims and listing as supporting references books that do not support your claims have not increased your credibility.
Somebody coming on this article without knowing what the discussion is about might be surprised to hear that the entire controversy, which has gone on for too long, has to do with just three points: 1) Is Aristotle a major influence on Liberalism? 2) Are the followers of Thomas Aquinas a major or minor influence on Liberalism? 3) Is the School of Salamanca a major or minor influence on Liberalism? You have yet to provide any evidence for 1. The evidence you provide for 2 and 3 has led me to include it in the article, but not in the lead. Your insistance that you are entirely in the right and that anyone who disagrees with you is entirely in the wrong, and your clearly false statements about what I personally have said, make it very difficult to work with you. Rick Norwood ( talk) 20:21, 28 October 2012 (UTC)
I'm a little disturbed that some editors seem to think they own the page. Obviously this is a significant political page so there may be a lot of contention but I think the way some editors have deleted multiple contributions has severely impacted the validity of the page. I looked up earlier discussions and it seems like the same editors (particularly The Four Deuces) have obfuscated huge issues.
The most simple way to solve this problem is to clarify and briefly explain the difference between classical and social liberalism. Even given editors obvious political clash their existence(!!!) shouldn't be contentious given that both ideologies have their respective Wikipedia pages. (I'm baffled how editors were routinely able to just delete my paragraph that points out something so integral). If we're concerned with the truth and giving Wikipedia validity this shouldn't have been such a large problem.
I've been looking at the history of this discussion. It looks like the editors attempting to add classical liberal material had to react to overzealous moderators. They tried obfuscating the issue by attempting to distinguish between European and American liberalism. The suggestion is that in America "liberal" refers to social liberalism while in Europe it refers to classical liberalism. This is an invalid distinction. In some European countries such as France liberalism means classical liberalism. Period. In England however we are slightly more aware of the American usage but we also have classical liberal think tanks such as the Cobden centre which advertises themselves as liberal. (Even though he has a think tank named after him, I think if I had tried to add material as advanced as Richard Cobden it obviously would have been censured). Not only that, we also have a history of classical liberalism in England called "Manchesterism" which some of us learn in schools simply as liberalism, however in Scotland liberalism is mostly taken to mean social liberalism, so there's clearly a distinction. Even if this page only applied to Europe the distinction between classical and social liberalism would still need to be made. But this distinction also suggests that the meaning of liberalism is ubiquitous in America. It isn't. In America liberal is used as common parlance for social liberalism, but you also currently have a huge movement that includes radical classical liberal doctrinaires (some of them anarcho-capitalist) that calls itself openly The Liberty Movement. In addition to this you also have multiple schools of economics that support classical liberal policies. From the Chicago School is notably Milton Friedman who many Americans may consider conservative but in an interview with Charlie Rose he denounced the term and called himself a liberal. Even more radically America is home to more Austrian economists than any other country in the world, all of them part of a continuing classical liberal tradition. This school of economics is called Austrian because the first four generations were born in Austria but during the political and ideological crisis of the Second World War the remainder fled to America. The most notable of these is Ludwig von Mises who wrote Liberalism a book burned in Austria by the National Socialists. (All this information has a place in the article and is crucial to distinguish between classical and social liberalism btw). This issue is also made more complex by the fact that English and American (but not continental) advocates of Keynesian policy also call themselves liberal. Paul Krugman being a notable example.
Quite frankly I think the clear prejudice of editors like The Four Deuces to dominate this page with the common American usage may be well meaning but it is completely invalid and is in effect nationalistic. The distinction between classical and social liberalism needs to be made right from the first line. Previous to the crisis of the first and second world war liberalism and it's history internationally referred to classical liberalism. Period. Now in America and some other countries it's unquestionable that being Liberal refers to social liberalism and is associated with the left wing progressivism. It is an egalitarian movement. Hence the very first line should read: "liberalism is a political philosophy classically concerned with liberty and progressively concerned with equality."
Now, I've included a very short paragraph which explains this distinction. I'm not going to bother changing the definition because I think it would cause too much grief, but my addition is fully cited with references to eminent historians and the most important economists of the 19th and 20th centuries. If people are concerned with the validity of this page I can also make other contributions as there is actually a reason for the confusion stemming from the philosophical history. Important figures such as James and John Stewart Stuart Mill (who I don't think are even mentioned in the article!) and many of the members of the British classical school for example could actually be described as social liberals. There is a complex historical relationship between classical and social liberalism that includes figures such as Anne-Robert-Jacques Turgot, Jean-Baptiste Say, Thomas Malthus, Adam Smith, Frédéric Bastiat, David Ricardo, Carl Menger, Karl Marx, Eugen von Böhm-Bawerk, Ludwig von Mises, Alfred Marshall, Joseph Schumpeter, John Maynard Keynes, Friedrich Hayek and Murray N. Rothbard. I fully recognise the right of everyone to contribute but I am a scholar on this exact subject and I would appreciate it if editors talked with me before simply deleting large contributions that I took the time to add. As it stands I think there is a clear and unqualified bias by editors only familiar with social liberalism and its really damaging the validly of the page. Social liberalism after all has only existed as liberalism in the last hundred years or so, so naturally this article is very confused. The whole history of liberalism up into the mid 19th century is a history primarily of classical liberalism, and if this article is valid it should reflect that. At the very least it should point out the proper reason for the distinction. For the past week editors have been deleting my references to the separate established Wikipedia pages. I don't see how this could be done unless the editors are deliberately trying to damage the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rothbardanswer ( talk • contribs) 16:21, 8 October 2012 (UTC)
Jake Rothbardanswer ( talk) 18:21, 8 October 2012 (UTC)
I neglected to sign my above subject "Classical and Social Liberalism both need to be explained. They are philosophically (not geographically) disparate". Always happy to chew out any problems. :) Jake.
Rothbardanswer (
talk)
17:10, 8 October 2012 (UTC)