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ALL of the references (in the References section, that is) are Korean. As this is a dispute between Japan and Korea, there should be references from both Japan and Korea, as well as references to articles and information found outside of either country. -- 日本穣 Nihonjoe 03:40, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps the overwhelming evidence points to Korean ownership of the islands. Have you ever thought about that? Feel free to add (relevant) evidence to the contrary.-- Sir Edgar 00:58, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
What I was trying to say is that there are only vague references to the islets in Japanese records. Most Japanese records are from 1905, when Japan assumed control of Korea. Nobody is stopping you from editing the context of any sentences. Please do so, if it you feel it is justified.-- Sir Edgar 00:01, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
I tried to edit a few times but there are some trying to stopping me from editing. I was even blocked from editting it unfairly. --- Michael Friedrich 10:15 17/05/2006
Mr. Friedrich, you say you have many evidence to break korean claims. it would be interesting for me and others to know. Could you share it with Wikipedia? Yurushimasu00 15:04, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
Can someone please clear up those "citation needed" tags by clarifying references, or whatever? It's really an eyesore to read like this, honestly. Mr Tan 04:12, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
I think the image use in this article is WAY out of hand. I can see using 3-4 of the maps, but there are at least 10-12 maps right now. A bit on the overkill side, IMHO. ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihon jo e 03:20, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
Just an FYI on a related matter, but Janviermichelle ( talk · contribs) just created a cut-and-paste copy of Sea of Japan naming dispute at East Sea (Sea of Japan) naming dispute. I changed it to a redirect to Sea of Japan naming dispute, but someone more knowledgable about POV forking and proper naming of redirects may want to look into it. -- Calton | Talk 07:50, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
Everyone calls Israel as Israel, because it's under Israeli administration. Just so you know, this area is claimed by Palestinians. Then what do you want to call? Make up another English name for Israel? -- janviermichelle 16 May 2006
Try the following:
janviermichelle, welcome to wikipedia. a good overview of wikipedia can be found at WP:5P. you are right, wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a democracy. in fact, votes are a disfavored method to resolve content disputes. WP:V, WP:NPOV, & WP:NOR are "non-negotiable" principles that cannot be overridden by wikipedia consensus or by any of the countless "guidelines" floating around.
so take your time to peruse the policies and above discussions. as you can see, several editors have made some new comments recently on the naming issue, perhaps it is time to revisit. let's get some outside views, such as at WP:RFC, & see if we can make a better encyclopedia. Appleby 04:52, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
"it does not matter whether Japan is right or Korea is right." is also POV. Think about Israel-Palestine territory, and how "it does not matter whether Israel is right or Palestine is right." sounds to Israelis and Palestinians. I don't think the past evidences matter when we talk about which country owns what. The current administrator does matter. Then we should say the US illegally occupies this land, that's why we call this land "the united states". The current goverment or the current administrator matters. Think about Taiwan and China. Taiwan should be called Taiwan. I think the current reference is okay. But the title of this article is too pro-japanese. it should be dokdo. Janviermichelle 19:56, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
First, let me tell you because I am Korean I know a lot of other things going on between Korea and Japan. The reason why Korea rejects the proposal is because Koreans do not want to give a chance for Japan to put a foothold on Liancourt Rocks. Korea does have stronger claims and I have read them in books and internet articles in Korean. Korea has occupied the islets since 500 A.D. And Japan is just suddenly aggresive toward Korea about the Liancourt Rocks issue because Japan is looking for natural gas that might be near Dokdo. Japan wants the rocks for more of economic reasons rather than historical fact. This is also the same reason why Japan is aggresive toward Russia's Kuril Islands and China's islands.
Good friend100 21:42, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
Oh, sorry. I had no intention referring Korea as "it" and Japan as "she". I didn't even realised since I am not a native English speaker even though I'm living in Australia. I am sorry if I hurt you.
I don't think it the islets are Korean territory. The evidence Korea is offering seems that they are too short of evidence that proves that the islands or territories mentioned in it are Dokdo. I also know the situation between Koreans and Japanese.
I want to argue against you, but I am not talking about it! You say this article should be called Dokdo, but I won't propose calling this article "Takeshima". It is because Wikipedia should maintain its neutral point of view.
Voltaire said "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." Calling this article Dokdo is against this policy.
As for the "References", they make this article seem to support Korean view and to try to call the islets Dokdo, even though the name of the article is neutral, the Liancourt Rocks.
The name should be neutral. The contents should be neutral. Of course, links should be neutral and should not give readers an impression that the rocks are Korean territory or Japanese territory. I say once again "The official sites would be enough. If readers of the article get interested in the issue they will study it themselves. We don't need those POV links here.
In addition, it seems you know nothing about Kuril Islands. The situation on the islands is completely different from the Liancourt Rocks. Japan and Russia decided their border between
Iturup and
Urup by
Treaty of Shimoda in 1885 perfectly peacefully. The islands does not have anything to do with Japanese deed in World War II. There's no doubt the islands are illegally invaded by Russia. "
Michael Friedrich 13:45 19/05/06
I never said so. Please feel free to propose having it to moved to Pinnacle Islands if you like. I did not mention the Senkaku Islands. That's all. However, the adoption of "Senkaku" does not justify moving this article to "Dokdo" either. Michael Friedrich 12:54 20/05/06
although wikipedia is not a democracy & votes are disfavored, it is true that we should try to build consensus based on wikipedia policies, consistency, and proper references. we should contact everyone who voted above & WP:RFC, but before we do that, it would probably be best if someone (sir edgar?) can refactor this page so that the recent relevant discussions are easy for newcomers to read at a glance. Appleby 21:23, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
To some extent I agree with Deiaemeth and Appleby. In addition to my agreements of what they said, I feel that the political climate now suggests that Japan is losing grip of Takeshima/Dokdo, and if this matter is being brought to court, I believe that Liancourt would have a higher chance to acclaim political adminstration on Liancourt than Japan if the matter is brought to the international court, especially on the level of loyalty exhibited by Koreans--anti-Japanese riots are vigourously staged out whenever Japan voiced out its claims. There are plentiful of websites to support what I said.
If Liancourt goes to Japan in international court, it is feasible to predict that at least half of South Korea would create an uproar and that would cause political uproar.
To move to Dokdo: One, when Korea's soverignity is no longer contested and recognised internationally in (possible) future, and that will be a must if the occasion arises, and the same if Liancourt goes to Japan (Takeshima). Two, you might move now, but the Europeans and Americans would certainly look in one kind. In all English media in Asia (except Korea and Japan), in particular Singapore and Malaysia, mention of Liancourt Rocks would be "....Dokdo (Takeshima)...." format. Liancourt rocks is not used in Asian newspapers, and I can step up Singapore's and Malaysia's position to their reference mode to Liancourt Rocks. I hope my comments can bring some help. Mr Tan 04:44, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
The name Dokdo is not internationally standardised. [2] According to this site, 66.7% of Malaysians, 58.8% of Australians, 55.6% of Indonasians, 54.5% of Filipinos regard the islets as Japanese territory. And I am not taling about Senkaku island. Please discuss that dispute on the Talk of Senkaku island. And I am talking about the "References". They are included in Wikipedia to support Korean view although Wikipedia does not support either side and maitain its neutral point of view. That is what I am taling about. Michael Friedrich 06:32 20/05/06
I don't think the term "Liancourt Rocks" is POV because either Korean or Japan calls it so. In 19th century, both countries called it the Liancourt Rocks. That is a very neutral name.
I did not say the dispute on Senkaku Islands is different from that of the Liancourt Rocks. Please feel free to propose having it to moved to Pinnacle Islands if you like. What I wanted to say is the adoption of "Senkaku" does not justify moving this article to "Dokdo".
As for the "References", those are not worth being mentioned as "References" as Janviermichelle says. I believe they are not suitable for an encyclopedia. Linking to those websites is like linking "
Dragonball" to mere fansites like [
[3]]. We don't need those links as long as the official websites are included.
It seems this discussion has become a discussion on the title. If you want to talk about the title please make a new section. Let's talk whether we need those "References" or not.
Michael Friedrich 12:45 20/05/06
Hi, the reason why I said "the adoption of "Senkaku" does not justify moving this article to "Dokdo"" is that the adoption of Senkaku might be suitable for wikipedia but might not be suitable for wikipedia. The name Senkaku is currently adopted. That's all. That does not mean the adoption of "Senkaku" is right. If you think "the Pinnacle Islands" is better for wikipedia, please feel free to propose having the article to moved to "Pinnacle Islands". I am not against adoption of Pinnacle Islands (I am not for it either, though.)
I think there're two ways we can take, removing whole of the "References" section or adding as many websites supporting Japanese view as the ones supporting Korean view. Your idea sounds interesting. But unfortunately, most websites supporting Japanese view are written in Japanese as I said above, and even if you add English websites of Japanese POV, they would be soon removed being said that "they are not reputable", "they are obscure ones" or "they are with little authority" as happened number of times.
I wonder moving the "References" to a new section makes any difference.
Michael Friedrich 15:00 21/05/06
Yes, you're right. Those websites in the "References" are not suitable. Thank you.
As I said, most reputable websites are written in Japanese because it is more important to let the Japanese know about this dispute than letting the foreigners know about it. That makes the problem harder. And I am not sure moving the "References" to a new section can make any difference.
I did not say situation on Senkaku and that on Liancourt are different. I did not mention Senkaku although I believe Kuril is very different. The reason why I said Senkakuis adopted is that the article is currently called "Senkaku Islands". That's all. Then I withdraw what I said. Senkaku is "used".
Michael Friedrich 16:15 21/05/06
I don't understand why we are talking about Senkaku Islands while this discussion is about Liancourt Rocks. Anyways Liancourt Rocks should be named Dokdo because Korea controls it! It is Korean territory. Therefore the Koreans have the right to name it. And also, we should be reminded that Korea and Japan are NOT in a dispute over the rocks. Liancourt Rocks are Korean territory and Japan is merely claiming it. Japan is making it look like a dispute so it seems like the Liancourt Rocks could be Japanese territory.
You also said that Korea does not have enough evidence to say that the rocks are Korean territory since 500 A.D. That is not true. Korean records show that the rocks were Korean territory since that time.
Also, even if you are right, Liancourt Rocks would still be Korean territory because a map created in 1432 during the Chosun Dynasty shows that the rocks are part of Korea and that Liancourt Rocks could be seen from Ulleung-do. This is an earlier record than the records of Japan, which date from the 1600s. [ [4]]
You keep saying that the article should be neutral. But your statements below and your tone of your arguments seem to me as if you are pro-japanese.
"The name Dokdo is not internationally standardised."
"According to this site, 66.7% of Malaysians, 58.8% of Australians, 55.6% of Indonasians, 54.5% of Filipinos regard the islets as Japanese territory."
Liancourt Rocks are Korean territory! Even the Wikimachine in this discussion agrees that the islets are Korean territory. Good friend100 22:00, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
I support Janvier' statement. Liancourt Rocks is the most uncommon name used for Dokdo. I'd also like to make a counterstatement on zonath's statement, "...bloody dissertation-length arguments over a couple of insignificant rocks in the sea, but there you are..." I want to say that I don't think zonath understands the importance, and yes, obsession of the naming of these certain islets. there are many who misunderstands the feeling of Koreans who have owned the islets for so long, have not just Japan, but others supporting the fact that Japan is the rightful owner of Dokdo. How would we like it if Canada claimed Alaska, suddenly arguing that, in the 19th century, "we actually owned Alaska, and that Russia and America had no right to bargain over it." Oyo321 14:53, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
-- 133.67.59.185 11:34, 31 May 2006 (UTC)Mkaz==Requested move== Liancourt Rocks → Dokdo – per talk:Liancourt Rocks and talk:Senkaku Islands-- Sir Edgar 00:18, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
The result of the debate was move. — Endroit 14:50, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
Liancourt Rocks → Dokdo – per talk:Liancourt Rocks and talk:Senkaku Islands-- Sir Edgar 00:18, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
Since the main article has been moved, could someone with the proper knowhow move this discussion page to Talk:Dokdo as well? -- Zonath 05:29, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
Good friend100 22:34, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
Sydneyphoenix 13:10, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
Appleby! Don't move freely! This is conspiracy by a small number of Korean.
Since the main article has been moved, could someone with the proper knowhow move this discussion page to Talk:Dokdo as well? -- Zonath 05:29, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
OpposeSouth Korea has made the island in beautiful Japan dirty. South Korea has made Takeshima's beautiful rock dirty. 60.41.158.27 13:27, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
OPPOSE Whilst the title to this island is situated at the centre of the current legal dispute, the dispute concerning its international name is also part of it. Thus, it is unfair to show information on this island under one of the names alleged by either parties, if we consider the transnational influence of Wikipedia even though not being a governmental project per se. As there exists an alternative third-party name 'Liancourt Rocks', this would be the most fair and legitimate one to be used provisionally between both parties so as to avoid additional and unecessary conflicts, at least until the legal dispute is wholly settled, hopefully, at the International Court of Justice. Remember, this is an international legal dispute which can also be brought to the Security Council of the United Nations; the current situation idicates that ROK has committed "illegal occupation by force" or even "aggression" which is prohibited by international law. (-- Koskenniemi 12:53, 31 May 2006 (UTC))
Oppose 竹島は李氏朝鮮時代の朝鮮政府に、存在すら知られていなかったはず。 Chatochan 13:44, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
Oppose NPOV. Neither Dokdo nor Takeshima are politically correct.
Oppose The unilateral "Dokdo" violates NEUTRAL policy that ALL wikipedians are required. -- Yuan.C.Lee 14:33, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
Oppose -- Sanchaman 02:33, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
Oppose I agree that 'The unilateral "Dokdo" violates NEUTRAL policy that ALL wikipedians are required'.-- mimomemo 02:45, 1 June 2006 (GMT)
Oppose the English name should be the one used over local names in all wikipedia articles, even if it is less common in popular media. Masterhatch 03:18, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
Oppose Takeshima is a peculiar territory to Japan.
Oppose The unilateral "Dokdo" violates NEUTRAL polocy that ALL wikipedians are required. -- Yuan.C.Lee 14:33, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
Oppose As for Takeshima, it is necessary not to have known even existence to a Korean government in a Mr. Lee Korean age.
Oppose South Korea keeps occupying it by the military power not based on International Law. They do not appear in court because there are even no grounds that can be insisted in International Court of Justice.
Oppose Most of people in the world don't know the Korean word dokdo. Liancourt Rocks is better.-- Hskf4
Oppose Sorry for being late, but ... what am I late for? Nobody has ever set a deadline here, and since I wanted to vote in the last minute after contemplating all the discussions, I really did not have the chance to vote.-- Dwy 11:12, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
Oppose South Korea keeps occupying it by the military power not based on International Law. They do not appear in court because there are even no grounds that can be insisted in International Court of Justice. Oppose The name "Dokdo" is inappropriate. It is Korean. South Korea has been declining to go to the international court on this matter since they know they would lose against Japan.
The vote has already ended. I hope your announcement of this end at the source where you knew the vote if can you do. Thanks. Reito-maguro 13:09, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
OPPOSE But I still oppose. Show me evidence that Dokdo is the most common English name. Google serch does not show us commoness of Dokdo because some of those websites could be made by Korean people. Only the percentage of the use of Dokdo in maps made in English speaking countries are reputable. If you can show us evidence that most English maps adopt the name Dokdo, that can justify the use of "Dokdo" in wikipedia. Or, if the United Nations officially calls it Dokdo, it also can justfy the use of Dokdo. But if not, since there are a lot of people who oppose having it moved, let's start a vote all over again. Michael Friedrich 15:33
Oppose Plaese survey the genuine history. -- Namusan 06:09, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
Oppose 反対のコメント Namusan 06:09, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
Oppose As for Takeshima, even existence is not known to a Korean government in a Mr. Lee Korean age. Rohirino 08:37, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
Oppose the English name should be the one used over local names in all wikipedia articles, even if it is less common in popular media. ouki 0:25, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
Oppose Takeshima is a Japanese territory.South Korea has not known Takeshima until recently. -- URINARA 16:16, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
Oppose What's "Dokdo" ? That's Japanese island "Takeshima". Does Korean know genuine history ?
OpposeThe range in a Japanese territory was fixed by the San Francisco peace, and it was fixed finally also that Takeshima was a Japanese territory as usual.
Oppose 反対のコメント 61.119.161.103 12:55, 5 June 2006 (UTC) Please go out to International Court of Justice by all means. It is child to insist that the country that disregards International Law is a territory of the home country on International Law before though said that the president of your country will capture the ship of Japanese Government disregarding International Law when bottom of the sea in the vicinity of Takeshima is measured. OpposeAs for Takeshima, there is an official document admitted that it is a Japanese territory without all after the war by U.S.A. in the fact that was considered to be a Korean territory once in recorded history, and it is impossible that there is a name except it to Takeshima with Takeshima. Tonkatu 11:02, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
oppose oppose oppose
Can we discuss this in talk before we go into an edit war. Is the question whether Takeshima is less commonly known than Dokdo or another standard? Tortfeasor 16:05, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
Is calling me buddy supposed to be positive or negative? Put it this way, Takeshima is the most commonly used name in Japan and Dokdo is the most commonly used name in Korea. And all the foreigners use both Dokdo and Takeshima when referring to the islets.
What are you talking about "Dokdo was exclusively used by Koreans only," everyone in Korea calls it Dokdo and Koreans only use Takeshima when referring to Japan's claim on the islets. Good friend100 16:28, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
Hello to Reito maguro..about which name is more common...the words Dokdo and Takeshima are not used only by Korean and Japanese people. Literally, you are correct that there are more people that call the islets "Takeshima" since Japan has a larger population than Korea. But, I am talking about foreigners too. Korean supporters call the islets "Dokdo" while Japanese supporters call it "Takeshima".
We are discussing whether or not the phrase "Takeshima is less commonly known than Dokdo" I agree with you that in Japan, Takeshima is much more popular. I am arguing that "Takeshima" is less commonly used because Dokdo is Korean territory and most people call the islets Dokdo. Also, most atlases label the islets "Dokdo" only recently they have changed it to "Dokdo (Takeshima)". Good friend100 01:11, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
To Sekicho...yes you say that the name Liancourt Rocks should be used in this article since it is the English version of Wikipedia. But, for example, if we are talking about Tokyo, Tokyo is Japanese and it is the capital of Japan. We do not call Tokyo "Japan's Capital City". Tokyo is a foreign word to English speakers technically. We call Tokyo because that is its name. The same goes for Dokdo. Dokdo is a more common name for Liancourt Rocks, and the name Liancourt Rocks are mainly used by neutral observers. We already know that currently, Dokdo is under South Korean control, so South Korea therefore has the right to name the islets, even if Japan claims the islets right now.
To Reito...In the atlas "Philip's Great World Atlas" on page 54 of Japan, the label of "Tok-do" is printed on there. This atlas is a 2001 edition. Can you state the maps you have found with the name of Liancourt Rocks? Thanks. Also, atlases will usually name the islets "Liancourt Rocks" because atlas creators solely focus on their profit and will put "Liancourt Rocks" to ensure there will be no objections to the atlas that might hurt the profit. Thanks again for the discussions. Good friend100 01:37, 31 May 2006 (UTC) OpposeThe island name is TAKESHIMA!! The island is Japanese island. 218.129.98.103 09:30, 31 May 2006 (UTC) OpposePlease study International Law. 163.180.21.58 09:49, 31 May 2006 (UTC) Oppose 'Takeshima' is the real name for this island. Atsumi 13:27, 31 May 2006 (UTC) Oppose This island name is TAKESHIMA. Japanese island.
Oppose I have heard there is a Cyber terrorist group "VANK" that is secretly supported by Korean goverment and propagating false information worldwide. I am strongly against such dirty business which contaminates "Wikipedia".
Oppose Takeshima island(Liancourt Rocks) has Japanese dominion since 1905. And ”Treaty of Peace with Japan(1951)” recognized Takeshima island as Japanese dominion. So name of "Dokdo(unlawful detainer)" is local name at Korean language. Ogatomo 08:40, 1 June 2006 (UTC)Oppose 反対のコメント JossWest1990 00:37, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
This isn't elaborated on in the article, but an island called Juk-do (竹島) in Korean is mentioned several times, whose name has the same meaning as Takeshima (also (竹島). Is it known whether these names have or could have any connection? Could the Japanese or the Koreans at some point have confused Dokdo and Jukdo? Rōnin 20:23, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for the internet article, helped clear things up a bit. Good friend100 16:28, 29 May 2006 (UTC) 'OpposeThis is Korean one-side opinion.
The Japanese people never use "Juk-do." This is Korean pronunciation and the title of this section should be "Takeshima or Juk-do (竹島)" because 竹島 is Japanese name. This article is completely one-side oppinion from Korean.
Since the article was first moved to Dokdo once and then moved back by an anonymous user, should we consider protecting the article as soon as the final move's been completed? Rōnin 01:11, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
Good friend100 13:30, 28 May 2006 (UTC) Oppose Dokdo true name is Takeshima is a Iland where Koreans stealing from Japan. 210.132.218.151 18:11, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
Oppose Dokdo true name is Takeshima is a Iland where Koreans stealing from Japan. 60.41.109.44 19:16, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
-- 61.205.155.128 06:01, 4 June 2006 (UTC)Oppose 反対のコメント 61.205.155.128 06:01, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
Liancourt Rocks is the dispute area in Japan and Korea. It is not neutrality to change the Korea name into a title. There is no room of an argument. Objectman 28 April 2006
Too fast to make agreement of chage to the Korean name. This change is not neutrally and fair. And dokudo isn't regarded as international name. I oppose this chage. Eastwest36 10:57, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
We did not know that there was vote. It was decided while we did not know. The ballot results consulted about which and decided only by Koreans are invalid. Objectman 28 April 2006
Good friend100 13:30, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
Liancourt Rocks are now under dispute but the oppsite vote is too few. I think it was artifical. Too short vote announcement period makes the vote unfair. Bright888 17:53, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
In International Law, it becomes a debatable ground by expressing the protest of another country. Takeshima is already a debatable ground according to the declaration of the protest of Japan. Using the Korean name in the debatable ground lacks fairness. [The Court moreover cannot disregard the fact that at the time when these activities were carried out, neither Indonesia nor its predecessor, the Netherlands, ever expressed its disagreement or protest(LIGITAN AND SIPADAN CASE(ICJ 2002)]-- Opp 18:33, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
Bright888, the rules are the rules. If you would like to propose a move back, then do so following the Wikipedia guidelines.-- Sir Edgar 06:46, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
Ooh! A stalker!-- 222.233.205.166 07:13, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
It is necessary to keep the name of Liancourt Rocks to prevent the edit battle. -- Kamosuke 18:14, 29 May 2006 (UTC)18:13, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
I have closed the RFD nomination as a speedy keep. As the stated rationale was that the redirect needed to be deleted for Dokdo to be moved back, this is not a valid case for RFD. Page renames belong at Wikipedia:Requested moves instead. Thanks. - JLaTondre 12:49, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
I might be biased because I'm Korean, but I think the article is pro Japanese. Every single Korean record or claim over Dokdo always has a following note that "Japan interprets it differently..." "The interpretation is disputed..." Its too pro Japanese. Whoever wrote this trys to make it sound like Japan has a strong claim on Dokdo which is definitely not true.
Korea has been controlling Dokdo a lot longer than Japan. The earliest Japanese record comes from the 1600s. Although the Korean records are older, it seems as if the article downgrades the Korean claims. I think we need to change the article's tone. Thanks for the replies Good friend100 13:43, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
Korea claimed Dokdo long ago and it is already part of Korean territory. Japan is merely claiming it today.
To answer Sekicho, I wouldn't ignore Japan's claims to the island I just want to discuss whether or not the tone of the article is too pro Japanese. And as I already said, Japan does not have strong claims on Dokdo, really Japan claims it for economical reasons (fishing, gas reserves, etc).
To answer Cjensen, if Dokdo is claimed by Korea, that can imply that Dokdo might not be Korean terrtory and it might be Japanese territory as well. But this contradicts the fact that Dokdo is under Korean control currently. So Korea has no claim on Dokdo. It is already under Korea's control. Like Oyo said, we cannot claim that Hawaii is owned by the U.S because it is already U.S territory! Good friend100 03:51, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
1. Currently Dokdo is under South Korean control. 2. Dokdo is the most common english name for the islets. I think those two reasons are enough to entitle this article dokdo. if you want to call this islets the weird liancourt rocks, you should call senkaku "pinnacle". that's what the vote was about. If you want liancourt, then you should have reasonable claim why this article should be liancourt and the pinnacle article should be senkaku, not pinnacle. Janviermichelle 18:58, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
All right! Stop arguing! The last consensus showed that we all voted for Dokdo to Liancourt Rocks. Whether Japan claim the Liancourt Rocks or not, it is now under South Korean control and from the South Korean to the Japanese mood South Koreans have a stronger historical influence on Dokdo than the Japanese; South Koreans feel more strongly for Dokdo than the Japanese, of which a few agree that Dokdo should go undisputed to Korea. Let's hope that Liancourt Rocks would be recognised as an undisputed territory of either nation someday.
Still, we aren't politicians, and we are in little position to say anything. Let's hope for the best, don't you? Give your fullest support to the government of your choice, and hope for the best for Liancourt/Dokdo. This goes to me too. Cheers! Mr Tan 05:25, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
The following passage from Wikipedia:Naming conflict may be relevant here:
Sekicho 17:14, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
There's been some complaints that users weren't properly notified of the vote and thus weren't able to vote. The vote was also closed without an actual deadline being announced, at least on this page. The vast amount of Oppose votes coming in are also obviously fake to such an extent that it would be hard to spot an actual vote in there if there were one.
Would it be an idea to have another vote, announced far in advance, with a set deadline, and with a clear limit on how new a user could be to participate, or are we now satified with the consensus of the last vote? I can't help but share the sentiment that it might have been unfair, though it does seem unlikely, seeing as all those who happened to vote initially agreed with the move. Rōnin 23:27, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
well, there's been an attempt to sabotage it, but i don't think there's a need for another vote right now. the current discussion on the renaming has been actively going on since this comment by sir edgar on may 16, 2006. with no opposition & plenty of voters, it was moved here on may 27, 2006, 11 days later. this was the state of the survey at the time of the move: [7]. i don't think the results are unfair or ambiguous.
an action was taken with clear consensus after substantive discussion for 11 days. imho, the discussion would be better moved along by more constructive comments, rather than another content-less attendance-taking, which will motivate further childishness while tempers are hot. Appleby 00:29, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
if you're talking about a conspiracy theory, that's an insult to the voters. And I know this is an english wikipedia. there are tons and tons of articles having non-english titles. Janviermichelle 02:51, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
I think all of these vandalisers are coming from japanese wikipedia. follow the link on the left to the japanese wikipedia and you can see why this happens. Also, I don't think the previous vote (not this one) was fair. Here's what I found in japanese takeshima wikipedia talk page. (英語版 means "English edition")
投票所はこちら
(1)Liancourt Rocksに置く (Support-賛成/Oppose-反対) (2)Dokdoに置く (Support-賛成/Oppose-反対) (3)Takeshimaに置く (Support-賛成/Oppose-反対)
Janviermichelle 03:22, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
Now, if there are so many users who made opposition to the name of Dokdo' to Liancourt Rocks, may I ask why none of these opposition members stepped foward earlier? It is certainly to throw your rocks at the closed door now. The voting season was only held in this month, and why didn't any opposition stepped foward during that season? Such attitude is certainly unfair and audacious. I am sure that at least a large minority wouldn't like the name Dokdo. Opposition members may also refer to
Senkaku islands, by the way.
Mr Tan 08:19, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
Mr Tan You are quite misunderstandig the nameing of places.
See Wikipedia Naming places theory. Name of each places is decided owing to its historical facts. Bright888 16:31, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
The name Dokdo has been published in much of the English press, and it is being accepted as an English word, romanized from Korean. Just as the word Beijing, it is also known less commonly as Peking (Wade Giles romanization). These two names are commonly used in its romanized forms in English. How can you said that they are being unaccepted in the English sphere, just because they are of foreign origin? There are a thousand and one names of places which are non-English in origin. Yes, Dokdo is an English word, since it has been accepted in the English media. Type the word DOKDO and you can find that they are mentioned everywhere, as with Liancourt and Takeshima.
The problem is now with the naming of the article, not with the origin of the name Dokdo or Takeshima. As I have said, there was a voting session to vote the name of your choice this month, but you and those of the same boat were not interested to vote then. How can you perpetually open and close the door in such a short while? It's ceryainly audacious! If you came too late for the voting session, just too bad! Wikipedia require all members to be pro-active. We invited everybody from all walks to vote, but just that tjose of your side don't want to vote or were dreaming. Mr Tan 16:43, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
We have informed everybody, all open to any English-speaking wikipedians to choose their name for their article on Dokdo or Liancourt Rocks. Sadly, it is not that the organizers who don't want to invite, but rather the opposition parties were not interested or deliberately wanted to stir up trouble after the open-house discussion. The discussion was on for a few days, and it not our fault for those who don't want to attend. We never said that it is not a Korean-based nor is it a closed one. There are non-Koreans who even participated in the discussion, say
User:Ronin and me myself.
Mr Tan 08:31, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
Oppose 反対のコメント 218.121.104.156 15:59, 31 May 2006 (UTC)」←
And I must also pinpoint that the South Koreans are very highly sensitive towards Dokdo, much more than the Japanese. I believe that the South Korean government also wanted to soothe their hearts before taking the giant leap in the possible future. For now, even I would believe that it is certainly very unfair to submit my petition to the ICJ as there is the Japanese royal backing and he would tend to be inclined towards the Japanese claim. Mr Tan 16:34, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
To Mr. Tan...that is a very interesting fact. I didn't know the true reason why Koreans didn't want to go to the ICJ.
To Bright888...hello Bright, I think you have your claims wrong. I'm pretty sure Koreans didn't kidnap 5 Japanese fishermen and murdered them. Japanese soldiers have been killed by Koreans. During the early 1950s, after Korean President Rhee designated the "Rhee Line" he declared that Japanese people must not enter Dokdo or Ulleungdo. However, when Japanese boats approached Dokdo, Korean guards ordered them to leave. When the Japanese didn't leave, Korean soldiers shot mortars and sunk a ship. Also there were several gunfights over the years. If you think Koreans killed Japanese people for no reason then thats wrong. Read the internet. There are hundreds of sources. 75.7.131.145 04:07, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
Clarifying that 75.7.131.145 is Good friend100...I forgot to log in. Ok maybe I exaggerated about the claims. I'm sorry about that. I know that President Rhee declared the Rhee Line and forbade Japanese fishermen from going to Dokdo or Ulleungdo. But, the Japanese approached the islets and the Koreans fired upon them to make them retreat. Even if Japan had no navy, Japan should have recognized the Rhee Line and forbid any Japanese citizens from going to Dokdo without formal permission. Good friend100 22:23, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
Ok then.. Im sorry if I offended anyone here... yes ok I just read an article on the internet that they were fishermen not soldiers sorry about that.. but anyways, about the Japanese fishermen that were killed by the Koreans..Japanese people have been trying to sail to Dokdo several times without formal permission from the Korean government since the Chosun dynasty (see the Ahn Yong-bok incident).
What the point is, the Japanese did not get any permission from the Korean government and sailed to Dokdo while clearly knowing that it is not their territory! It was Japan's responsibility to recognize Korea's government and Korea as a country. Japan lost WWII in 1945, by 1953 they should have recognized the Korean government by then. The deaths of the Japanese fishermen are of course not very good news, but it is not Korea's fault that they were killed by the Korean police on Dokdo. Japan failed to recognize the Rhee line. Isn't it the government's responsibility to protect and be good to its own citizens? Good friend100 15:49, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
Per Wikipedia:Naming conflict#How to make a choice among controversial names, the most common use of a name takes precedence over the official name of the self-identifying entity. The argument 'the name should be Dokdo because the islets are under Korean contorl and it is the officail name used by the Korean government' does not stand. What we should do is to determine the most common name objectively.
Wikipedia:Naming_conflict#Identification of common names using external references provides several methods.
With the above result, I suggest this article be placed Liancourt Rocks as common and neutral name. -- Kusunose 09:25, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
Dokdo moved to Liancourt Rocks by the vote on April 25, 2005.
[9]
Sir Edgar requested to the name problem of
Senkaku Islands and requested the change in the name of Liancourt Rocks.
Senkaku Islands and Liancourt Rocks have a quite different background. This request was supported by users who edited the article on Korea.
The mutual agreement of Liancourt Rocks contributed to a peaceful edit.
Why does
Sir Edgar relate
Liancourt Rocks to the name problem of
Senkaku Islands? --
Kamosuke 13:45, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
just a reminder for newcomers to this page who must be wondering what's going on, i think my previous comment got lost somewhere in edit history:
a rational discussion on the renaming had been active on this page since this comment by sir edgar on may 16, 2006. with no opposition & plenty of legitimate voters, it was moved here on may 27, 2006, 11 days later. this was the state of the survey at the time of the move: [10]. i don't think the results are unfair or ambiguous. an action was taken with clear consensus after substantive discussion for a sufficient period. i've requested checkuser for some of the series of vandals/sockpuppets, but i think we'll just have to wait for them to find something better to do. Appleby 00:29, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
I endorse the move of this page to Dokdo based on my tally of votes (including late voters): 15 "support", 9 "oppose", and 1 "neutral". That's 62.5%, and enough for Wikipedia:Consensus. I have specifically omitted "newcomers" who appeared to be Wikipedia:Single purpose accounts at the time of voting. This voting was advertised in Wikipedia:Requested moves by Appleby on 05:37, 23 May 2006, as well as in Wikipedia:Current surveys by Endroit on 06:19, 23 May 2006. If you are a new user wishing to contribute to Wikipedia, please read Wikipedia:Welcome, newcomers and contribute to other articles. Please do not vote here any more.-- Endroit 17:30, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
Please understand where consensus is actually at (62.5%). This clarification is necessary because my count differs from Appleby's. Others are welcome to view this edit history: diff 00:18, 23 May 2006 - 12:54, 31 May 2006 (the duration of the vote including late voters). Users who "supported" were: Sir Edgar, Janviermichelle, Appleby, Deiaemeth, Mr Tan, Sekicho, Good friend100, Sydneyphoenix, Rōnin, AKADriver, Nihonjoe, Zonath, Wikimachine, Gurch, and Jh.daniell. Users who "opposed" were: Visviva, Hermeneus, Kusunose, AjaxSmack, Bright888, Ypacarai, Kamosuke, Nachi, Mochi. Users who're "neutral" were: Endroit. (These users were NOT Wikipedia:Single purpose accounts at the time of voting.) So that's 15-9-1 by my count, or 62.5% in favor of Dokdo.-- Endroit 18:41, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
Also, there is only 37.5% support for "Liancourt Rocks" in terms of consensus (after the move, by my count). Any attempt to do another vote or challenge the results are ill advised at this point (not recommended).-- Endroit 19:11, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
As I have said, wikipedia is a place for people who are pro-active. There is no need for one to be "informed", for doing so it would take up a lot of time unless a robot is used, which is a certainly useless and lame move. People who are truly interested in a certain topic and want to vote should get himself updated, and catch the right time ti do it and not make a big hoo-haa about it when it is over. There is no one to blame if one is too late for the poll. If they are late, just too bad. Rules were set before the polls, and it is their very own fault if they don't want to turn up and get self-informed earlier. If everybody is to make their own modifications in accordance to their own interests, this would bring very adverse effects to wikipedia. If it's over, just use other ways of solving the problem and not breaking the declaration of the fixed rule.
And also, for wikipedia to work, some discipline on the rules is needed and no rowdiness. There is certainly no point on waking up people who are not pro-active, which is an important factor to become a good wikipedian. Mr Tan 16:14, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
I never said that only certain people can vote. Rather, what I am reinforcing is that people should vote at the right moment, and at the right time, which means that any people of any opinion can vote. Being pro-active means that you have to be self-motivated to work on wikipedia, which means that you have to volunteer yourself, which is the guiding principle of wikipedia. If you missed the right moment of voting, that's it. We are counting on people on the right time to vote on a fixed time--this is to reinforce law and order. Punctuality through self-motivation to do something. Do you force yourself into meeting the boss in the office, when it is closed after closing time? Security guards would stop you and so is the locked door. This real-life principle also applies to wikipedia.
But voting is secondary to wikipedia--the prime concern is that our aim is to contribute actively to wikipedia. And that is what I mean by pro-activeness. Mr Tan 02:25, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
I agree with Mr. Tan. Only the active users of Wikipedia who have been part of the discussion for some time should vote, not just web surfers on the internet who came across the article and decided to vandalize the poll. Reito-maguro...you said that "the present end is very very fast so that the opponents could not know" but the Japanese side of the vote should have voted. It is their fault that they are not being pro active and up to date on the poll. The poll is for the current users! The poll is not for web surfers that just read articles and are not part of the discussion. Good friend100 23:56, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
I wish I had seen this discussion earlier. It wasn't brought to my attention until appleby edited the Sea of Japan article. I must say that i STRONGLY oppose the name change to Dokdo for this article. Why? because this is the English section of Wikipedia, not the korean or the japanese or the international section. One user wrote that since Korea owns the rocks, then it should be called Dokdo in Wikipedia. Well, i don't give a flying sh*t who owns those rocks, wikipedia is all about NPOV and by calling these rocks by anything other than the neutral English name is POV. Same with the pinnacle islands. It is highly Korean pov to call those rocks dokdo and it is highly japanese pov to call them Takeshima. Also, wikipedia is not a democracy and you can not vote in a pov name just because there are enough people that hold that pov who edit wikipedia. A neutral, ENGLISH name must be used for all articles. Masterhatch 19:15, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
done and done. most publications describe the islets as "dokdo in korean and takeshima in japanese" or "takeshima in japanese and dokdo in korean"; "liancourt rocks" is very rare, & cia is the exception, not the rule. where there is no common english name (although dokdo is more common than takeshima), the consistent wikipedia practice is to use the name used by the controlling party. wikipedia should not be in the business of promoting obscure french names for korean or japanese territories. we can change the wikipedia practice, but this page shouldn't be the sacrifical exception until a new naming convention is neutrally applied. to begin the change in naming conventions, please continue the discussion at
Talk:Senkaku Islands. thanks.
Appleby 23:17, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
do you really think Dokdo is more common than Takeshima? There are 120 million people call Takeshima on Earth at least , but how about Dokdo? there are ONLY 40 million people call Dokdo. and Appleby, the dispute of the Senkaku islands are not related to Korea. Don't be meddlesome. -- Himawarichan 00:08, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
To answer Himawarichan...hello, about your statement that Takeshima is more common name than Dokdo...literally you are correct, there are definitely more Japanese people than Koreans! But, we are talking about foreigners too! This is the second time I am saying this. Just because there is a bigger population doesn't nesscerily mean that the word "Takeshima" is more common. Good friend100 22:23, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
First of all, about the vote, I do hope that the vandalizers were not from Japanese Wikipedia. It just makes a bad impression. I also agree that another consensus should be taken again (this time with a notice and ending date).
Anyways, i would like to clarify something. I keep reading other peoples discussions that this is the English Wikipedia and therefore it should be "Liancourt Rocks" since "Dokdo" or "Takeshima" are not English words.
Yes you are correct but peoples! The internet is an international thing. There are thousands of networks all across the earth. Just because it is English Wikipedia doesn't mean that everything should be contained to just English words. For example, Sushi is a Japanese word but we use it and it is part of our vocabulary! There are hundreds of European and Asian words that we use as part of English. Many Spanish words are very similar to English words too.
Also, English is becoming a global language! There are many articles in the English Wikipedia because more and more people are learning English and speaking it. We don't have to argue about it. Good friend100
If this article title change results in more Wikipedians joining who will actively contribute to improving articles here, then I think that would be most welcome and a positive result of this debate. I do not, however, wish to see inanane comments, cursing, childish behavior, and solely politically-motivated statements coming from ni channeru members. The amount of anti-Chinese, anti-Korean, racist, and ultra-nationalistic posting going on there is not to be underestimated. New people joining should only make responsible posts using level-headed reasoning with facts. Anyhow, I hope we can see many more new Wikipedians joining who will contribute positively to all articles.-- Sir Edgar 05:02, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
Reito-maguro, I think it would be great if we have new Japanese Wikipedians joining in the discussion and helping to the improvement of all articles here at Wikipedia. However, I do not think that people simply coming to vote are contributing to the discussion. Opinions are important, but we want to see the reasoning behind the opinion. Simple statements like "Takeshima is Japanese and Koreans are dirtying it." or "This is unfair. Island's name is Takeshima." are not helpful. This is especially the case when such comments are coming from participants who are unsigned, unregistered, or newly-registered for the sole reason of voting in a poll that ended a week ago.-- Sir Edgar 01:21, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
No problem with the English. I think your English is quite good actually. You do speak in quite a Japanese way using very polite, but vague comments, which makes it difficult to comprehend what you're trying to say exactly. I guess it's a different form of expression, kinda like what we see between the British and Americans.
Honestly, I am severely disappointed by the lack of manners among the people posting here. Using sock puppet accounts, crude expressions, and empty political statements does not help the discussion at all. I was going to stop commenting on this Talk page and just go start work on UK-related articles because I see the discussion going nowhere but a mob re-vote. And this is by people who don't regularly visit the site and are using less than civilized tactics to do so. But I think your courtesy and reason convinced to me at least respond to your post.
Really, I find it difficult to absorb all of this. The Internet manners of the Japanese who have posted here could be seen by some as atrocious, especially compared to the impeccable manners I've seen in person and how well I've been treated when in Japan. I'm really shocked and yet I've seen it all before.
Reito-maguro, can you help us have a civil discussion based on facts and reason for the creation of the best article possible? Can we do this in an orderly, calm fashion without offensive remarks and rude insinuations?-- Sir Edgar 07:30, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
By the way, I wish that somebody would point to me it was said, "Dokdo is Korean and Japan's claims should be ignored." I just did a search of this page and the only person who used the word "ignore", or any form thereof, is you, Sekicho. You did it three times. So, please be careful about your statements. I would like to ask you to hold an unbiased reasoning with your comments and attitude.
I also searched the word "dirty" and it was used three times by what look like Japanese Wikipedians or ni channeru people, all in reference to Koreans. I think this kind of behavior is appalling. For those of you that don't know, many Japanese call foreigners, especially Koreans, "kitanai" (or dirty).-- Sir Edgar 08:37, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
Well you still know what Sir Edgar is trying to say he thinks that there are too many pro Japanese people and they are not keeping their manners on Wikipedia. Take a look at the vote and see how it got vandalized! I don't know if the people were from ni channeru or Japanese Wikpedia, or other people, but the Japanese side of this article now just looks bad. ...About VANK, I have never hear about this organization and it is interesting if they are secret supporters for Korea. And also, could someone explain what a "cyber terrorist" is? thanks Good friend100 21:52, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
Oyo321 00:09, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
Everybody should be cool down! By the way, I've been thought that I don't want to take ashamed action because here is the international place, but when I removed the article posted by Appleby, I got message of "Don't remove contents" from Deiaemeth, although he or she had never contributed that article. First, I couldn't understand what's mean, But now I understand. There are pro Korean people and sockpuppet here! (Is it already common sense? I'm sorry I did not know it because I was a beginner.) So, It is nonsense that some Korean people blame for 2-chan-nerra as if they do not do a wrong thing. and I say just to make sure, 2-chan-nerra are not pro like VANK. We will work as everybody peacefully as dirty! thanks -- TOMATOBOMB 02:24, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
What are you talking about "pro Koreans"?! Try seeing what happened to the poll and how someone vandalized it against the Korean side of the vote. Also to Oyo...we do not have to talk emotionally this discussion should be kept in a polite tone and a little more positive atmosphere. Good friend100 14:02, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
Should we stop altercations not related to the entry name "Clarification"? , such as "2chers are bad!" or "Vank is bad!" Reito-maguro 14:27, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
This is the official consensus of the US government by Dean Rusk about the Liancourt Rocks. And, this is the only opinion from the outsider's angle. To keep the wikipedia neutral, it is necessary regardless of the content. -- Himawarichan 01:02, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
But there are only Japan and Kores's insistences on the article. The outsider's opnion is very important especially in the English Wikipedia. -- Himawarichan 01:26, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
This is the important documents what intent is showed that the San Francisco treaty was written. You should not erase. Objectman 03:45, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
Japan was deprived of oversea territories precisely because the U.S.-led Allied Powers defeated Japan in the Pacific War, and it was the SCAP ( Supreme Commander of the Allied Powers) that redrew the national boundaries of post-war Japan and determined the attribution of islands such as the Liancourt rocks and Kuril Islands. Removing the info on the U.S. involvement because "it has no bearing" is ridiculous. Hermeneus ( user/ talk) 05:09, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
It's fine to include this document as a document, but the current edits trying to add it aren't up to par. For one thing, the Rusk letter has been tacked on at the end, totally out of place. For another thing, the text draws POV conclusions instead of just giving info about what the document says. For a third thing, it puts this under a heading that totally loses the context of what Rusk was writing. I'll try to rewrite in a more reasonable and less polemic way. -- Reuben 05:39, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
This page was recently the subject of the most ill-judged move in Wikipedia history; I've moved it back to Dokdo and move protected it. (There is a reason why we discuss moves first). Henry Flower 11:17, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
"They were released in 1965, under exchange condition with releasing 472 Korean prisoners who perpetrated crimes in Japan."
I feel that there is a need for a Korean point of view for this statement to make it neutral.
To my knowledge, those Koreans who were accused of doing crimes in Japan were related to Independent Army movement.
Additionally, I don't know how to archive this, but somebody needs to archive this discussion. Thanks. (
Wikimachine 14:03, 3 June 2006 (UTC))
The article states that a number of fishermen were detained in Korea "as hostages". Do we have factual basis for that, or would it be better to remove the "as hostages" bit? Rōnin 02:06, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
Takeshima is one of the peculiar territory in Japan. Korean govements have not been appreciated our historical things between Japan and Korea, and also, have strongly pressed their understanding of wrong history to Japan. I would like to tell you once again, Takeshima is a peculiar territory in Japan. saihiro 06:06, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
Man this page is overloading way too much. My lagging computer can't keep up. I suggest we put this in the archives. Ken ta987 07:47, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
Yes. This page is way too long. But it must be cut at the point when it is archived.-- Sir Edgar 02:15, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
I will move the entries from "1 POV" to "18 What the?" into an archive tomorrow temporary. After we agree on cut regions, I will do additional operates. Thanks. Reito-maguro 13:06, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
Doesn't the headline of "Wikiproject Japan" mislead to people that this article is trying to improve Japan and make the article into Japanese. Don't we need to put up a "Wikiproject Korea"? I think we need to do something about the Wikiproject Japan title. Good friend100 14:24, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
No, Im not trying to make the article Korean POV Im just wondering why the "Wikiproject Japan" is on this article. When I first saw it, it kind of makes it seem like the article is for Japan. Good friend100 17:28, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
Sorry if I seem too Korean POV but I agree with you Reito maguro, someone should post the "Korea Portal" at the top of the article page. Good friend100 22:36, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
I started a discussion a few days ago but unfortunately, I don't think anybody got the message. Anyways, i have read some users saying that "because this is English Wikipedia the name of the article should be Liancourt Rocks". I don't think this is true becaus first of all the internet is not restricted to only English speaking countries or English speaking people. The internet is an international thing. Also, more people are speaking English and English is becoming a global language. I can't believe some people think that the English Wikipedia is restricted to English users. Good friend100 14:31, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
Reito maguro...I'm just trying to clarify that just because it is English Wikipedia, doesn't mean only English articles must be in it. Several users are saying that "just because this is English Wikipedia, we must only use English names so Liancourt Rocks is the proper name" The word Liancourt Rocks is not even English, its French. Also, Im not talking about the poll Im just talking about how people think Dokdo and Takeshima are not English words.
To Himawarichan...I don't think we need to make a new English name, first of all that would be very confusing to neutral observers and also people outside of Wikipedia already call it the Liancourt Rocks. I just want to clarify that "just because this is English Wikipedia, we must only use English names so Liancourt Rocks is the proper name" is not a correct statement. Good friend100 17:32, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
A Japanese Wikipedian by the name Opp has been running around this entire page, obliteratng references to the name Dokdo, verifiable ancient records and online sources, and making original research based on his own personal observations. He should be at the very least prevented from editing this page in consideration of these examples of vandalism:
Considering what Opp has been trying to do to this article, it is clear that he has every intention to distort, omit, and pervert references to Korean terminology, cartography, and historiography in regard to Dokdo (examples 1~8). He also makes use of original research and inserts adds his own viewpoints (examples 9,10). Japanese POV has no place anywhere on this encyclopedia and thus all users of Wikipedia should oppose to Opp efforts to deny history. Thus I strongly suggest that Opp be prohibited from vandalizing this page until he can cite a logical motive to delete what are facts/references that perfectly belong to this article.-- Jh.daniell 11:09, 5 June 2006 (GMT+9:00-Tokyo)
Strongly Support: By all means, that's one less painful POV to handle. ( Wikimachine 22:11, 5 June 2006 (UTC))
Support: Reasons are because of the facts and evidence that Jh.daniell has recorded. Good friend100 22:45, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
at least some of the new editors constantly reverting this and related pages have been confirmed to be sockpuppets of User:Bright888 and have been blocked: [16]. perhaps page protection is the next step if this continues. Appleby 04:39, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
You should not make personal attacks. Your behavior is a crying shame.
Reito-maguro 14:49, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
Im sorry it just makes me angry that people are messing this discussion page up and how everyone is hostile toward each other. This is a discussion page not an all out war. Good friend100 21:07, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
As you can see above, there are many people against moving the article to Dokdo. But somehow those opinions are ignored. Let's start a vote all over again.
Dokdo → Liancourt Rocks Michael Friedrich 06:57, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
The last survey was seriously flawed and arguably invalid since there was no discussion on the nature of the survey beforehand. So I think another vote is mandatory. However, we have to conduct the survey in a manner that no one can challenge it. I think it better to wait for a while (a week or two) until the situation calms down. Then, we will invite as many people as possible to discuss the matter thoroughly (I think WP:RFC would be a good idea), after which we can have a vote.-- Dwy 15:34, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
By the way, Hermeneus, I rather think that you should retract that idiotic statement of yours in which you make the unfounded claim that Korean users had prepared to take over this article. You have no proof except for some lousy archive vote, in which none of the voters seemed Korean or had been proven to be so. Your claims are so thoroughly intergrated with the typical Japanese victim mentality and are living proof (along with the sock puppets employed above) of the far-fetchedness of the claims made by apologists in Japan, who continue to believe they are part of an international conspiracy.
Oppose: I am just voting because I supported the move from Liancourt Rocks to Dokdo on the previous vote. But I do not think the vote will turn out true since the sabotage attempt on the previous vote. Also, confirmation of sock puppet use is not going to bring out valid conclusions of this vote.
Oppose I wouldn't trust the poll votes, and not until sock-puppets have been snuffed out, it wouldn't be safe to hold a vote.
Oppose On previous arguments Ken ta987 00:33, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
Oppose Dokdo is Korea. Japan is an brazen-faced invader who have not reflect on conduct. Japanese are all dusty. Don`t forget Peal Harbor and Batan in Philippines -- Rheo1905 02:20, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
Oppose Don't repeat the same Request.
This is just one of my thoughts, but I've got a big question. Is,or will any type of military combat occur out of the rock disputes? Between South Korea and Japan. In history, some action has occured, including the sinking of a Japanese naval ship by Korean mortar. What do you think? Oyo321 00:38, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
As a wikipedian had said, I must highlight that in the total world makeup of the English-press that Liancourt Rocks is used mainly in Europe and to some extent, America, while the rest mentioned ....Dokdo (Takeshima)... in their articles mentioning the rocks. Currently, Dokdo is used as the principal name as it is under semi-legal control---my definition of semi-legal is that in a contested land the controller's (Korea) name is usually mentioned first followed by its contester (Japan). For now, even I vote oppose, I won't really mind having Liancourt Rocks as the article's name. Mr Tan 13:33, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
these are some of the problems i see:
this time, i have not simply reverted, kept some of your edits. that's about all i have time for right now, but please feel free to explain your edits before reverting again. Appleby 16:43, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
there is a related discussion and poll on the naming of one of the features around dokdo, currently underway at Talk:Tsushima Basin. please participate if interested. only editors with at least 100 previous edits & one-month history will be able to vote. Appleby 06:52, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
Information should not be artificially extracted from the perspective of South Korea.-- Opp 16:56, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
Opp, are you saying that all these records that support Korea's side are not good supporting facts? Why are you saying the Korean records are not good while leaving the Japanese records alone? Are you Japan POV? The statement Information should not be artificially extracted from the perspective of Japan must be true as well. Good friend100 02:12, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
I hear this everyday. Dokdo and Takeshima are bull. They're foreign. Lets name the rocks Liancourt since that is most neutral. I do agree that articles in debate must be kept neutral, to satisfy users new and old. But wikipedia is a historical information site. Everything that gets edited must be sure to be historically true, or Wikipedia will be blamed for giving wrong information to users, as was a couple months ago. Dokdo is the most common and most historically correct name of the rocks. Liancourt is uncommon, and Takeshima was named by Japan in order to try and take the island.
The reason why Takeshima is becoming a more common name is national supremacy and recognition over South Korea. I hope everybody agrees, that, in history, stronger, more powerful and distinguished nations get the "right" to name a surrounding landmark or body of water. It always has been that way.
Because Japan is more known around the world, most people think that Japan must be able to name Sea of Japan. Japan must name Dokdo, if not own it. Take a look at the Gulf of Mexico. If before the Gulf was named, and Mexico named it the Gulf of Mexico, and Cuba stepped in and said "we want to name the gulf," would anybody listen to them? No one would give a squat, the way nobody would probably give a squat to South Korea. Oyo321 23:49, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
"Takeshima Tokai Yuraiki Bassho Hikae, written by Ōya Kyuemon, records that in 1618 the Tokugawa Shogunate granted the Ōya and Murakawa families of Yonago fishing rights, and in 1661, feudal tenure, of "Takeshima", which then referred to Ulleung-do. On the way to Ulleung-do, Japanese fishermen sometimes used the islets, then called in Japanese "Matsushima" (松島), as an intermediate port of call."
This paragraph comes from the article of Dokdo. It reads that the Shogunate granted the Oya and Murakawa families fishing rights. But why did Japanese citizens need to get permission from the Japanese goverment if Japan claimed the islets as their own? If a territory is part of a country why would its own citizens have to get a permission just to go to an islet? If this is true, then Japan must have not considered Dokdo its own territory since permission had to be granted just to go there and fish. This must mean that Japan didn't think of Dokdo as their own territory. Good friend100 02:33, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | → | Archive 10 |
ALL of the references (in the References section, that is) are Korean. As this is a dispute between Japan and Korea, there should be references from both Japan and Korea, as well as references to articles and information found outside of either country. -- 日本穣 Nihonjoe 03:40, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps the overwhelming evidence points to Korean ownership of the islands. Have you ever thought about that? Feel free to add (relevant) evidence to the contrary.-- Sir Edgar 00:58, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
What I was trying to say is that there are only vague references to the islets in Japanese records. Most Japanese records are from 1905, when Japan assumed control of Korea. Nobody is stopping you from editing the context of any sentences. Please do so, if it you feel it is justified.-- Sir Edgar 00:01, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
I tried to edit a few times but there are some trying to stopping me from editing. I was even blocked from editting it unfairly. --- Michael Friedrich 10:15 17/05/2006
Mr. Friedrich, you say you have many evidence to break korean claims. it would be interesting for me and others to know. Could you share it with Wikipedia? Yurushimasu00 15:04, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
Can someone please clear up those "citation needed" tags by clarifying references, or whatever? It's really an eyesore to read like this, honestly. Mr Tan 04:12, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
I think the image use in this article is WAY out of hand. I can see using 3-4 of the maps, but there are at least 10-12 maps right now. A bit on the overkill side, IMHO. ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihon jo e 03:20, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
Just an FYI on a related matter, but Janviermichelle ( talk · contribs) just created a cut-and-paste copy of Sea of Japan naming dispute at East Sea (Sea of Japan) naming dispute. I changed it to a redirect to Sea of Japan naming dispute, but someone more knowledgable about POV forking and proper naming of redirects may want to look into it. -- Calton | Talk 07:50, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
Everyone calls Israel as Israel, because it's under Israeli administration. Just so you know, this area is claimed by Palestinians. Then what do you want to call? Make up another English name for Israel? -- janviermichelle 16 May 2006
Try the following:
janviermichelle, welcome to wikipedia. a good overview of wikipedia can be found at WP:5P. you are right, wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a democracy. in fact, votes are a disfavored method to resolve content disputes. WP:V, WP:NPOV, & WP:NOR are "non-negotiable" principles that cannot be overridden by wikipedia consensus or by any of the countless "guidelines" floating around.
so take your time to peruse the policies and above discussions. as you can see, several editors have made some new comments recently on the naming issue, perhaps it is time to revisit. let's get some outside views, such as at WP:RFC, & see if we can make a better encyclopedia. Appleby 04:52, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
"it does not matter whether Japan is right or Korea is right." is also POV. Think about Israel-Palestine territory, and how "it does not matter whether Israel is right or Palestine is right." sounds to Israelis and Palestinians. I don't think the past evidences matter when we talk about which country owns what. The current administrator does matter. Then we should say the US illegally occupies this land, that's why we call this land "the united states". The current goverment or the current administrator matters. Think about Taiwan and China. Taiwan should be called Taiwan. I think the current reference is okay. But the title of this article is too pro-japanese. it should be dokdo. Janviermichelle 19:56, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
First, let me tell you because I am Korean I know a lot of other things going on between Korea and Japan. The reason why Korea rejects the proposal is because Koreans do not want to give a chance for Japan to put a foothold on Liancourt Rocks. Korea does have stronger claims and I have read them in books and internet articles in Korean. Korea has occupied the islets since 500 A.D. And Japan is just suddenly aggresive toward Korea about the Liancourt Rocks issue because Japan is looking for natural gas that might be near Dokdo. Japan wants the rocks for more of economic reasons rather than historical fact. This is also the same reason why Japan is aggresive toward Russia's Kuril Islands and China's islands.
Good friend100 21:42, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
Oh, sorry. I had no intention referring Korea as "it" and Japan as "she". I didn't even realised since I am not a native English speaker even though I'm living in Australia. I am sorry if I hurt you.
I don't think it the islets are Korean territory. The evidence Korea is offering seems that they are too short of evidence that proves that the islands or territories mentioned in it are Dokdo. I also know the situation between Koreans and Japanese.
I want to argue against you, but I am not talking about it! You say this article should be called Dokdo, but I won't propose calling this article "Takeshima". It is because Wikipedia should maintain its neutral point of view.
Voltaire said "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." Calling this article Dokdo is against this policy.
As for the "References", they make this article seem to support Korean view and to try to call the islets Dokdo, even though the name of the article is neutral, the Liancourt Rocks.
The name should be neutral. The contents should be neutral. Of course, links should be neutral and should not give readers an impression that the rocks are Korean territory or Japanese territory. I say once again "The official sites would be enough. If readers of the article get interested in the issue they will study it themselves. We don't need those POV links here.
In addition, it seems you know nothing about Kuril Islands. The situation on the islands is completely different from the Liancourt Rocks. Japan and Russia decided their border between
Iturup and
Urup by
Treaty of Shimoda in 1885 perfectly peacefully. The islands does not have anything to do with Japanese deed in World War II. There's no doubt the islands are illegally invaded by Russia. "
Michael Friedrich 13:45 19/05/06
I never said so. Please feel free to propose having it to moved to Pinnacle Islands if you like. I did not mention the Senkaku Islands. That's all. However, the adoption of "Senkaku" does not justify moving this article to "Dokdo" either. Michael Friedrich 12:54 20/05/06
although wikipedia is not a democracy & votes are disfavored, it is true that we should try to build consensus based on wikipedia policies, consistency, and proper references. we should contact everyone who voted above & WP:RFC, but before we do that, it would probably be best if someone (sir edgar?) can refactor this page so that the recent relevant discussions are easy for newcomers to read at a glance. Appleby 21:23, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
To some extent I agree with Deiaemeth and Appleby. In addition to my agreements of what they said, I feel that the political climate now suggests that Japan is losing grip of Takeshima/Dokdo, and if this matter is being brought to court, I believe that Liancourt would have a higher chance to acclaim political adminstration on Liancourt than Japan if the matter is brought to the international court, especially on the level of loyalty exhibited by Koreans--anti-Japanese riots are vigourously staged out whenever Japan voiced out its claims. There are plentiful of websites to support what I said.
If Liancourt goes to Japan in international court, it is feasible to predict that at least half of South Korea would create an uproar and that would cause political uproar.
To move to Dokdo: One, when Korea's soverignity is no longer contested and recognised internationally in (possible) future, and that will be a must if the occasion arises, and the same if Liancourt goes to Japan (Takeshima). Two, you might move now, but the Europeans and Americans would certainly look in one kind. In all English media in Asia (except Korea and Japan), in particular Singapore and Malaysia, mention of Liancourt Rocks would be "....Dokdo (Takeshima)...." format. Liancourt rocks is not used in Asian newspapers, and I can step up Singapore's and Malaysia's position to their reference mode to Liancourt Rocks. I hope my comments can bring some help. Mr Tan 04:44, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
The name Dokdo is not internationally standardised. [2] According to this site, 66.7% of Malaysians, 58.8% of Australians, 55.6% of Indonasians, 54.5% of Filipinos regard the islets as Japanese territory. And I am not taling about Senkaku island. Please discuss that dispute on the Talk of Senkaku island. And I am talking about the "References". They are included in Wikipedia to support Korean view although Wikipedia does not support either side and maitain its neutral point of view. That is what I am taling about. Michael Friedrich 06:32 20/05/06
I don't think the term "Liancourt Rocks" is POV because either Korean or Japan calls it so. In 19th century, both countries called it the Liancourt Rocks. That is a very neutral name.
I did not say the dispute on Senkaku Islands is different from that of the Liancourt Rocks. Please feel free to propose having it to moved to Pinnacle Islands if you like. What I wanted to say is the adoption of "Senkaku" does not justify moving this article to "Dokdo".
As for the "References", those are not worth being mentioned as "References" as Janviermichelle says. I believe they are not suitable for an encyclopedia. Linking to those websites is like linking "
Dragonball" to mere fansites like [
[3]]. We don't need those links as long as the official websites are included.
It seems this discussion has become a discussion on the title. If you want to talk about the title please make a new section. Let's talk whether we need those "References" or not.
Michael Friedrich 12:45 20/05/06
Hi, the reason why I said "the adoption of "Senkaku" does not justify moving this article to "Dokdo"" is that the adoption of Senkaku might be suitable for wikipedia but might not be suitable for wikipedia. The name Senkaku is currently adopted. That's all. That does not mean the adoption of "Senkaku" is right. If you think "the Pinnacle Islands" is better for wikipedia, please feel free to propose having the article to moved to "Pinnacle Islands". I am not against adoption of Pinnacle Islands (I am not for it either, though.)
I think there're two ways we can take, removing whole of the "References" section or adding as many websites supporting Japanese view as the ones supporting Korean view. Your idea sounds interesting. But unfortunately, most websites supporting Japanese view are written in Japanese as I said above, and even if you add English websites of Japanese POV, they would be soon removed being said that "they are not reputable", "they are obscure ones" or "they are with little authority" as happened number of times.
I wonder moving the "References" to a new section makes any difference.
Michael Friedrich 15:00 21/05/06
Yes, you're right. Those websites in the "References" are not suitable. Thank you.
As I said, most reputable websites are written in Japanese because it is more important to let the Japanese know about this dispute than letting the foreigners know about it. That makes the problem harder. And I am not sure moving the "References" to a new section can make any difference.
I did not say situation on Senkaku and that on Liancourt are different. I did not mention Senkaku although I believe Kuril is very different. The reason why I said Senkakuis adopted is that the article is currently called "Senkaku Islands". That's all. Then I withdraw what I said. Senkaku is "used".
Michael Friedrich 16:15 21/05/06
I don't understand why we are talking about Senkaku Islands while this discussion is about Liancourt Rocks. Anyways Liancourt Rocks should be named Dokdo because Korea controls it! It is Korean territory. Therefore the Koreans have the right to name it. And also, we should be reminded that Korea and Japan are NOT in a dispute over the rocks. Liancourt Rocks are Korean territory and Japan is merely claiming it. Japan is making it look like a dispute so it seems like the Liancourt Rocks could be Japanese territory.
You also said that Korea does not have enough evidence to say that the rocks are Korean territory since 500 A.D. That is not true. Korean records show that the rocks were Korean territory since that time.
Also, even if you are right, Liancourt Rocks would still be Korean territory because a map created in 1432 during the Chosun Dynasty shows that the rocks are part of Korea and that Liancourt Rocks could be seen from Ulleung-do. This is an earlier record than the records of Japan, which date from the 1600s. [ [4]]
You keep saying that the article should be neutral. But your statements below and your tone of your arguments seem to me as if you are pro-japanese.
"The name Dokdo is not internationally standardised."
"According to this site, 66.7% of Malaysians, 58.8% of Australians, 55.6% of Indonasians, 54.5% of Filipinos regard the islets as Japanese territory."
Liancourt Rocks are Korean territory! Even the Wikimachine in this discussion agrees that the islets are Korean territory. Good friend100 22:00, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
I support Janvier' statement. Liancourt Rocks is the most uncommon name used for Dokdo. I'd also like to make a counterstatement on zonath's statement, "...bloody dissertation-length arguments over a couple of insignificant rocks in the sea, but there you are..." I want to say that I don't think zonath understands the importance, and yes, obsession of the naming of these certain islets. there are many who misunderstands the feeling of Koreans who have owned the islets for so long, have not just Japan, but others supporting the fact that Japan is the rightful owner of Dokdo. How would we like it if Canada claimed Alaska, suddenly arguing that, in the 19th century, "we actually owned Alaska, and that Russia and America had no right to bargain over it." Oyo321 14:53, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
-- 133.67.59.185 11:34, 31 May 2006 (UTC)Mkaz==Requested move== Liancourt Rocks → Dokdo – per talk:Liancourt Rocks and talk:Senkaku Islands-- Sir Edgar 00:18, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
The result of the debate was move. — Endroit 14:50, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
Liancourt Rocks → Dokdo – per talk:Liancourt Rocks and talk:Senkaku Islands-- Sir Edgar 00:18, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
Since the main article has been moved, could someone with the proper knowhow move this discussion page to Talk:Dokdo as well? -- Zonath 05:29, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
Good friend100 22:34, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
Sydneyphoenix 13:10, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
Appleby! Don't move freely! This is conspiracy by a small number of Korean.
Since the main article has been moved, could someone with the proper knowhow move this discussion page to Talk:Dokdo as well? -- Zonath 05:29, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
OpposeSouth Korea has made the island in beautiful Japan dirty. South Korea has made Takeshima's beautiful rock dirty. 60.41.158.27 13:27, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
OPPOSE Whilst the title to this island is situated at the centre of the current legal dispute, the dispute concerning its international name is also part of it. Thus, it is unfair to show information on this island under one of the names alleged by either parties, if we consider the transnational influence of Wikipedia even though not being a governmental project per se. As there exists an alternative third-party name 'Liancourt Rocks', this would be the most fair and legitimate one to be used provisionally between both parties so as to avoid additional and unecessary conflicts, at least until the legal dispute is wholly settled, hopefully, at the International Court of Justice. Remember, this is an international legal dispute which can also be brought to the Security Council of the United Nations; the current situation idicates that ROK has committed "illegal occupation by force" or even "aggression" which is prohibited by international law. (-- Koskenniemi 12:53, 31 May 2006 (UTC))
Oppose 竹島は李氏朝鮮時代の朝鮮政府に、存在すら知られていなかったはず。 Chatochan 13:44, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
Oppose NPOV. Neither Dokdo nor Takeshima are politically correct.
Oppose The unilateral "Dokdo" violates NEUTRAL policy that ALL wikipedians are required. -- Yuan.C.Lee 14:33, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
Oppose -- Sanchaman 02:33, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
Oppose I agree that 'The unilateral "Dokdo" violates NEUTRAL policy that ALL wikipedians are required'.-- mimomemo 02:45, 1 June 2006 (GMT)
Oppose the English name should be the one used over local names in all wikipedia articles, even if it is less common in popular media. Masterhatch 03:18, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
Oppose Takeshima is a peculiar territory to Japan.
Oppose The unilateral "Dokdo" violates NEUTRAL polocy that ALL wikipedians are required. -- Yuan.C.Lee 14:33, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
Oppose As for Takeshima, it is necessary not to have known even existence to a Korean government in a Mr. Lee Korean age.
Oppose South Korea keeps occupying it by the military power not based on International Law. They do not appear in court because there are even no grounds that can be insisted in International Court of Justice.
Oppose Most of people in the world don't know the Korean word dokdo. Liancourt Rocks is better.-- Hskf4
Oppose Sorry for being late, but ... what am I late for? Nobody has ever set a deadline here, and since I wanted to vote in the last minute after contemplating all the discussions, I really did not have the chance to vote.-- Dwy 11:12, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
Oppose South Korea keeps occupying it by the military power not based on International Law. They do not appear in court because there are even no grounds that can be insisted in International Court of Justice. Oppose The name "Dokdo" is inappropriate. It is Korean. South Korea has been declining to go to the international court on this matter since they know they would lose against Japan.
The vote has already ended. I hope your announcement of this end at the source where you knew the vote if can you do. Thanks. Reito-maguro 13:09, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
OPPOSE But I still oppose. Show me evidence that Dokdo is the most common English name. Google serch does not show us commoness of Dokdo because some of those websites could be made by Korean people. Only the percentage of the use of Dokdo in maps made in English speaking countries are reputable. If you can show us evidence that most English maps adopt the name Dokdo, that can justify the use of "Dokdo" in wikipedia. Or, if the United Nations officially calls it Dokdo, it also can justfy the use of Dokdo. But if not, since there are a lot of people who oppose having it moved, let's start a vote all over again. Michael Friedrich 15:33
Oppose Plaese survey the genuine history. -- Namusan 06:09, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
Oppose 反対のコメント Namusan 06:09, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
Oppose As for Takeshima, even existence is not known to a Korean government in a Mr. Lee Korean age. Rohirino 08:37, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
Oppose the English name should be the one used over local names in all wikipedia articles, even if it is less common in popular media. ouki 0:25, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
Oppose Takeshima is a Japanese territory.South Korea has not known Takeshima until recently. -- URINARA 16:16, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
Oppose What's "Dokdo" ? That's Japanese island "Takeshima". Does Korean know genuine history ?
OpposeThe range in a Japanese territory was fixed by the San Francisco peace, and it was fixed finally also that Takeshima was a Japanese territory as usual.
Oppose 反対のコメント 61.119.161.103 12:55, 5 June 2006 (UTC) Please go out to International Court of Justice by all means. It is child to insist that the country that disregards International Law is a territory of the home country on International Law before though said that the president of your country will capture the ship of Japanese Government disregarding International Law when bottom of the sea in the vicinity of Takeshima is measured. OpposeAs for Takeshima, there is an official document admitted that it is a Japanese territory without all after the war by U.S.A. in the fact that was considered to be a Korean territory once in recorded history, and it is impossible that there is a name except it to Takeshima with Takeshima. Tonkatu 11:02, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
oppose oppose oppose
Can we discuss this in talk before we go into an edit war. Is the question whether Takeshima is less commonly known than Dokdo or another standard? Tortfeasor 16:05, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
Is calling me buddy supposed to be positive or negative? Put it this way, Takeshima is the most commonly used name in Japan and Dokdo is the most commonly used name in Korea. And all the foreigners use both Dokdo and Takeshima when referring to the islets.
What are you talking about "Dokdo was exclusively used by Koreans only," everyone in Korea calls it Dokdo and Koreans only use Takeshima when referring to Japan's claim on the islets. Good friend100 16:28, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
Hello to Reito maguro..about which name is more common...the words Dokdo and Takeshima are not used only by Korean and Japanese people. Literally, you are correct that there are more people that call the islets "Takeshima" since Japan has a larger population than Korea. But, I am talking about foreigners too. Korean supporters call the islets "Dokdo" while Japanese supporters call it "Takeshima".
We are discussing whether or not the phrase "Takeshima is less commonly known than Dokdo" I agree with you that in Japan, Takeshima is much more popular. I am arguing that "Takeshima" is less commonly used because Dokdo is Korean territory and most people call the islets Dokdo. Also, most atlases label the islets "Dokdo" only recently they have changed it to "Dokdo (Takeshima)". Good friend100 01:11, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
To Sekicho...yes you say that the name Liancourt Rocks should be used in this article since it is the English version of Wikipedia. But, for example, if we are talking about Tokyo, Tokyo is Japanese and it is the capital of Japan. We do not call Tokyo "Japan's Capital City". Tokyo is a foreign word to English speakers technically. We call Tokyo because that is its name. The same goes for Dokdo. Dokdo is a more common name for Liancourt Rocks, and the name Liancourt Rocks are mainly used by neutral observers. We already know that currently, Dokdo is under South Korean control, so South Korea therefore has the right to name the islets, even if Japan claims the islets right now.
To Reito...In the atlas "Philip's Great World Atlas" on page 54 of Japan, the label of "Tok-do" is printed on there. This atlas is a 2001 edition. Can you state the maps you have found with the name of Liancourt Rocks? Thanks. Also, atlases will usually name the islets "Liancourt Rocks" because atlas creators solely focus on their profit and will put "Liancourt Rocks" to ensure there will be no objections to the atlas that might hurt the profit. Thanks again for the discussions. Good friend100 01:37, 31 May 2006 (UTC) OpposeThe island name is TAKESHIMA!! The island is Japanese island. 218.129.98.103 09:30, 31 May 2006 (UTC) OpposePlease study International Law. 163.180.21.58 09:49, 31 May 2006 (UTC) Oppose 'Takeshima' is the real name for this island. Atsumi 13:27, 31 May 2006 (UTC) Oppose This island name is TAKESHIMA. Japanese island.
Oppose I have heard there is a Cyber terrorist group "VANK" that is secretly supported by Korean goverment and propagating false information worldwide. I am strongly against such dirty business which contaminates "Wikipedia".
Oppose Takeshima island(Liancourt Rocks) has Japanese dominion since 1905. And ”Treaty of Peace with Japan(1951)” recognized Takeshima island as Japanese dominion. So name of "Dokdo(unlawful detainer)" is local name at Korean language. Ogatomo 08:40, 1 June 2006 (UTC)Oppose 反対のコメント JossWest1990 00:37, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
This isn't elaborated on in the article, but an island called Juk-do (竹島) in Korean is mentioned several times, whose name has the same meaning as Takeshima (also (竹島). Is it known whether these names have or could have any connection? Could the Japanese or the Koreans at some point have confused Dokdo and Jukdo? Rōnin 20:23, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for the internet article, helped clear things up a bit. Good friend100 16:28, 29 May 2006 (UTC) 'OpposeThis is Korean one-side opinion.
The Japanese people never use "Juk-do." This is Korean pronunciation and the title of this section should be "Takeshima or Juk-do (竹島)" because 竹島 is Japanese name. This article is completely one-side oppinion from Korean.
Since the article was first moved to Dokdo once and then moved back by an anonymous user, should we consider protecting the article as soon as the final move's been completed? Rōnin 01:11, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
Good friend100 13:30, 28 May 2006 (UTC) Oppose Dokdo true name is Takeshima is a Iland where Koreans stealing from Japan. 210.132.218.151 18:11, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
Oppose Dokdo true name is Takeshima is a Iland where Koreans stealing from Japan. 60.41.109.44 19:16, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
-- 61.205.155.128 06:01, 4 June 2006 (UTC)Oppose 反対のコメント 61.205.155.128 06:01, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
Liancourt Rocks is the dispute area in Japan and Korea. It is not neutrality to change the Korea name into a title. There is no room of an argument. Objectman 28 April 2006
Too fast to make agreement of chage to the Korean name. This change is not neutrally and fair. And dokudo isn't regarded as international name. I oppose this chage. Eastwest36 10:57, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
We did not know that there was vote. It was decided while we did not know. The ballot results consulted about which and decided only by Koreans are invalid. Objectman 28 April 2006
Good friend100 13:30, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
Liancourt Rocks are now under dispute but the oppsite vote is too few. I think it was artifical. Too short vote announcement period makes the vote unfair. Bright888 17:53, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
In International Law, it becomes a debatable ground by expressing the protest of another country. Takeshima is already a debatable ground according to the declaration of the protest of Japan. Using the Korean name in the debatable ground lacks fairness. [The Court moreover cannot disregard the fact that at the time when these activities were carried out, neither Indonesia nor its predecessor, the Netherlands, ever expressed its disagreement or protest(LIGITAN AND SIPADAN CASE(ICJ 2002)]-- Opp 18:33, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
Bright888, the rules are the rules. If you would like to propose a move back, then do so following the Wikipedia guidelines.-- Sir Edgar 06:46, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
Ooh! A stalker!-- 222.233.205.166 07:13, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
It is necessary to keep the name of Liancourt Rocks to prevent the edit battle. -- Kamosuke 18:14, 29 May 2006 (UTC)18:13, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
I have closed the RFD nomination as a speedy keep. As the stated rationale was that the redirect needed to be deleted for Dokdo to be moved back, this is not a valid case for RFD. Page renames belong at Wikipedia:Requested moves instead. Thanks. - JLaTondre 12:49, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
I might be biased because I'm Korean, but I think the article is pro Japanese. Every single Korean record or claim over Dokdo always has a following note that "Japan interprets it differently..." "The interpretation is disputed..." Its too pro Japanese. Whoever wrote this trys to make it sound like Japan has a strong claim on Dokdo which is definitely not true.
Korea has been controlling Dokdo a lot longer than Japan. The earliest Japanese record comes from the 1600s. Although the Korean records are older, it seems as if the article downgrades the Korean claims. I think we need to change the article's tone. Thanks for the replies Good friend100 13:43, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
Korea claimed Dokdo long ago and it is already part of Korean territory. Japan is merely claiming it today.
To answer Sekicho, I wouldn't ignore Japan's claims to the island I just want to discuss whether or not the tone of the article is too pro Japanese. And as I already said, Japan does not have strong claims on Dokdo, really Japan claims it for economical reasons (fishing, gas reserves, etc).
To answer Cjensen, if Dokdo is claimed by Korea, that can imply that Dokdo might not be Korean terrtory and it might be Japanese territory as well. But this contradicts the fact that Dokdo is under Korean control currently. So Korea has no claim on Dokdo. It is already under Korea's control. Like Oyo said, we cannot claim that Hawaii is owned by the U.S because it is already U.S territory! Good friend100 03:51, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
1. Currently Dokdo is under South Korean control. 2. Dokdo is the most common english name for the islets. I think those two reasons are enough to entitle this article dokdo. if you want to call this islets the weird liancourt rocks, you should call senkaku "pinnacle". that's what the vote was about. If you want liancourt, then you should have reasonable claim why this article should be liancourt and the pinnacle article should be senkaku, not pinnacle. Janviermichelle 18:58, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
All right! Stop arguing! The last consensus showed that we all voted for Dokdo to Liancourt Rocks. Whether Japan claim the Liancourt Rocks or not, it is now under South Korean control and from the South Korean to the Japanese mood South Koreans have a stronger historical influence on Dokdo than the Japanese; South Koreans feel more strongly for Dokdo than the Japanese, of which a few agree that Dokdo should go undisputed to Korea. Let's hope that Liancourt Rocks would be recognised as an undisputed territory of either nation someday.
Still, we aren't politicians, and we are in little position to say anything. Let's hope for the best, don't you? Give your fullest support to the government of your choice, and hope for the best for Liancourt/Dokdo. This goes to me too. Cheers! Mr Tan 05:25, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
The following passage from Wikipedia:Naming conflict may be relevant here:
Sekicho 17:14, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
There's been some complaints that users weren't properly notified of the vote and thus weren't able to vote. The vote was also closed without an actual deadline being announced, at least on this page. The vast amount of Oppose votes coming in are also obviously fake to such an extent that it would be hard to spot an actual vote in there if there were one.
Would it be an idea to have another vote, announced far in advance, with a set deadline, and with a clear limit on how new a user could be to participate, or are we now satified with the consensus of the last vote? I can't help but share the sentiment that it might have been unfair, though it does seem unlikely, seeing as all those who happened to vote initially agreed with the move. Rōnin 23:27, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
well, there's been an attempt to sabotage it, but i don't think there's a need for another vote right now. the current discussion on the renaming has been actively going on since this comment by sir edgar on may 16, 2006. with no opposition & plenty of voters, it was moved here on may 27, 2006, 11 days later. this was the state of the survey at the time of the move: [7]. i don't think the results are unfair or ambiguous.
an action was taken with clear consensus after substantive discussion for 11 days. imho, the discussion would be better moved along by more constructive comments, rather than another content-less attendance-taking, which will motivate further childishness while tempers are hot. Appleby 00:29, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
if you're talking about a conspiracy theory, that's an insult to the voters. And I know this is an english wikipedia. there are tons and tons of articles having non-english titles. Janviermichelle 02:51, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
I think all of these vandalisers are coming from japanese wikipedia. follow the link on the left to the japanese wikipedia and you can see why this happens. Also, I don't think the previous vote (not this one) was fair. Here's what I found in japanese takeshima wikipedia talk page. (英語版 means "English edition")
投票所はこちら
(1)Liancourt Rocksに置く (Support-賛成/Oppose-反対) (2)Dokdoに置く (Support-賛成/Oppose-反対) (3)Takeshimaに置く (Support-賛成/Oppose-反対)
Janviermichelle 03:22, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
Now, if there are so many users who made opposition to the name of Dokdo' to Liancourt Rocks, may I ask why none of these opposition members stepped foward earlier? It is certainly to throw your rocks at the closed door now. The voting season was only held in this month, and why didn't any opposition stepped foward during that season? Such attitude is certainly unfair and audacious. I am sure that at least a large minority wouldn't like the name Dokdo. Opposition members may also refer to
Senkaku islands, by the way.
Mr Tan 08:19, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
Mr Tan You are quite misunderstandig the nameing of places.
See Wikipedia Naming places theory. Name of each places is decided owing to its historical facts. Bright888 16:31, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
The name Dokdo has been published in much of the English press, and it is being accepted as an English word, romanized from Korean. Just as the word Beijing, it is also known less commonly as Peking (Wade Giles romanization). These two names are commonly used in its romanized forms in English. How can you said that they are being unaccepted in the English sphere, just because they are of foreign origin? There are a thousand and one names of places which are non-English in origin. Yes, Dokdo is an English word, since it has been accepted in the English media. Type the word DOKDO and you can find that they are mentioned everywhere, as with Liancourt and Takeshima.
The problem is now with the naming of the article, not with the origin of the name Dokdo or Takeshima. As I have said, there was a voting session to vote the name of your choice this month, but you and those of the same boat were not interested to vote then. How can you perpetually open and close the door in such a short while? It's ceryainly audacious! If you came too late for the voting session, just too bad! Wikipedia require all members to be pro-active. We invited everybody from all walks to vote, but just that tjose of your side don't want to vote or were dreaming. Mr Tan 16:43, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
We have informed everybody, all open to any English-speaking wikipedians to choose their name for their article on Dokdo or Liancourt Rocks. Sadly, it is not that the organizers who don't want to invite, but rather the opposition parties were not interested or deliberately wanted to stir up trouble after the open-house discussion. The discussion was on for a few days, and it not our fault for those who don't want to attend. We never said that it is not a Korean-based nor is it a closed one. There are non-Koreans who even participated in the discussion, say
User:Ronin and me myself.
Mr Tan 08:31, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
Oppose 反対のコメント 218.121.104.156 15:59, 31 May 2006 (UTC)」←
And I must also pinpoint that the South Koreans are very highly sensitive towards Dokdo, much more than the Japanese. I believe that the South Korean government also wanted to soothe their hearts before taking the giant leap in the possible future. For now, even I would believe that it is certainly very unfair to submit my petition to the ICJ as there is the Japanese royal backing and he would tend to be inclined towards the Japanese claim. Mr Tan 16:34, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
To Mr. Tan...that is a very interesting fact. I didn't know the true reason why Koreans didn't want to go to the ICJ.
To Bright888...hello Bright, I think you have your claims wrong. I'm pretty sure Koreans didn't kidnap 5 Japanese fishermen and murdered them. Japanese soldiers have been killed by Koreans. During the early 1950s, after Korean President Rhee designated the "Rhee Line" he declared that Japanese people must not enter Dokdo or Ulleungdo. However, when Japanese boats approached Dokdo, Korean guards ordered them to leave. When the Japanese didn't leave, Korean soldiers shot mortars and sunk a ship. Also there were several gunfights over the years. If you think Koreans killed Japanese people for no reason then thats wrong. Read the internet. There are hundreds of sources. 75.7.131.145 04:07, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
Clarifying that 75.7.131.145 is Good friend100...I forgot to log in. Ok maybe I exaggerated about the claims. I'm sorry about that. I know that President Rhee declared the Rhee Line and forbade Japanese fishermen from going to Dokdo or Ulleungdo. But, the Japanese approached the islets and the Koreans fired upon them to make them retreat. Even if Japan had no navy, Japan should have recognized the Rhee Line and forbid any Japanese citizens from going to Dokdo without formal permission. Good friend100 22:23, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
Ok then.. Im sorry if I offended anyone here... yes ok I just read an article on the internet that they were fishermen not soldiers sorry about that.. but anyways, about the Japanese fishermen that were killed by the Koreans..Japanese people have been trying to sail to Dokdo several times without formal permission from the Korean government since the Chosun dynasty (see the Ahn Yong-bok incident).
What the point is, the Japanese did not get any permission from the Korean government and sailed to Dokdo while clearly knowing that it is not their territory! It was Japan's responsibility to recognize Korea's government and Korea as a country. Japan lost WWII in 1945, by 1953 they should have recognized the Korean government by then. The deaths of the Japanese fishermen are of course not very good news, but it is not Korea's fault that they were killed by the Korean police on Dokdo. Japan failed to recognize the Rhee line. Isn't it the government's responsibility to protect and be good to its own citizens? Good friend100 15:49, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
Per Wikipedia:Naming conflict#How to make a choice among controversial names, the most common use of a name takes precedence over the official name of the self-identifying entity. The argument 'the name should be Dokdo because the islets are under Korean contorl and it is the officail name used by the Korean government' does not stand. What we should do is to determine the most common name objectively.
Wikipedia:Naming_conflict#Identification of common names using external references provides several methods.
With the above result, I suggest this article be placed Liancourt Rocks as common and neutral name. -- Kusunose 09:25, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
Dokdo moved to Liancourt Rocks by the vote on April 25, 2005.
[9]
Sir Edgar requested to the name problem of
Senkaku Islands and requested the change in the name of Liancourt Rocks.
Senkaku Islands and Liancourt Rocks have a quite different background. This request was supported by users who edited the article on Korea.
The mutual agreement of Liancourt Rocks contributed to a peaceful edit.
Why does
Sir Edgar relate
Liancourt Rocks to the name problem of
Senkaku Islands? --
Kamosuke 13:45, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
just a reminder for newcomers to this page who must be wondering what's going on, i think my previous comment got lost somewhere in edit history:
a rational discussion on the renaming had been active on this page since this comment by sir edgar on may 16, 2006. with no opposition & plenty of legitimate voters, it was moved here on may 27, 2006, 11 days later. this was the state of the survey at the time of the move: [10]. i don't think the results are unfair or ambiguous. an action was taken with clear consensus after substantive discussion for a sufficient period. i've requested checkuser for some of the series of vandals/sockpuppets, but i think we'll just have to wait for them to find something better to do. Appleby 00:29, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
I endorse the move of this page to Dokdo based on my tally of votes (including late voters): 15 "support", 9 "oppose", and 1 "neutral". That's 62.5%, and enough for Wikipedia:Consensus. I have specifically omitted "newcomers" who appeared to be Wikipedia:Single purpose accounts at the time of voting. This voting was advertised in Wikipedia:Requested moves by Appleby on 05:37, 23 May 2006, as well as in Wikipedia:Current surveys by Endroit on 06:19, 23 May 2006. If you are a new user wishing to contribute to Wikipedia, please read Wikipedia:Welcome, newcomers and contribute to other articles. Please do not vote here any more.-- Endroit 17:30, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
Please understand where consensus is actually at (62.5%). This clarification is necessary because my count differs from Appleby's. Others are welcome to view this edit history: diff 00:18, 23 May 2006 - 12:54, 31 May 2006 (the duration of the vote including late voters). Users who "supported" were: Sir Edgar, Janviermichelle, Appleby, Deiaemeth, Mr Tan, Sekicho, Good friend100, Sydneyphoenix, Rōnin, AKADriver, Nihonjoe, Zonath, Wikimachine, Gurch, and Jh.daniell. Users who "opposed" were: Visviva, Hermeneus, Kusunose, AjaxSmack, Bright888, Ypacarai, Kamosuke, Nachi, Mochi. Users who're "neutral" were: Endroit. (These users were NOT Wikipedia:Single purpose accounts at the time of voting.) So that's 15-9-1 by my count, or 62.5% in favor of Dokdo.-- Endroit 18:41, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
Also, there is only 37.5% support for "Liancourt Rocks" in terms of consensus (after the move, by my count). Any attempt to do another vote or challenge the results are ill advised at this point (not recommended).-- Endroit 19:11, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
As I have said, wikipedia is a place for people who are pro-active. There is no need for one to be "informed", for doing so it would take up a lot of time unless a robot is used, which is a certainly useless and lame move. People who are truly interested in a certain topic and want to vote should get himself updated, and catch the right time ti do it and not make a big hoo-haa about it when it is over. There is no one to blame if one is too late for the poll. If they are late, just too bad. Rules were set before the polls, and it is their very own fault if they don't want to turn up and get self-informed earlier. If everybody is to make their own modifications in accordance to their own interests, this would bring very adverse effects to wikipedia. If it's over, just use other ways of solving the problem and not breaking the declaration of the fixed rule.
And also, for wikipedia to work, some discipline on the rules is needed and no rowdiness. There is certainly no point on waking up people who are not pro-active, which is an important factor to become a good wikipedian. Mr Tan 16:14, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
I never said that only certain people can vote. Rather, what I am reinforcing is that people should vote at the right moment, and at the right time, which means that any people of any opinion can vote. Being pro-active means that you have to be self-motivated to work on wikipedia, which means that you have to volunteer yourself, which is the guiding principle of wikipedia. If you missed the right moment of voting, that's it. We are counting on people on the right time to vote on a fixed time--this is to reinforce law and order. Punctuality through self-motivation to do something. Do you force yourself into meeting the boss in the office, when it is closed after closing time? Security guards would stop you and so is the locked door. This real-life principle also applies to wikipedia.
But voting is secondary to wikipedia--the prime concern is that our aim is to contribute actively to wikipedia. And that is what I mean by pro-activeness. Mr Tan 02:25, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
I agree with Mr. Tan. Only the active users of Wikipedia who have been part of the discussion for some time should vote, not just web surfers on the internet who came across the article and decided to vandalize the poll. Reito-maguro...you said that "the present end is very very fast so that the opponents could not know" but the Japanese side of the vote should have voted. It is their fault that they are not being pro active and up to date on the poll. The poll is for the current users! The poll is not for web surfers that just read articles and are not part of the discussion. Good friend100 23:56, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
I wish I had seen this discussion earlier. It wasn't brought to my attention until appleby edited the Sea of Japan article. I must say that i STRONGLY oppose the name change to Dokdo for this article. Why? because this is the English section of Wikipedia, not the korean or the japanese or the international section. One user wrote that since Korea owns the rocks, then it should be called Dokdo in Wikipedia. Well, i don't give a flying sh*t who owns those rocks, wikipedia is all about NPOV and by calling these rocks by anything other than the neutral English name is POV. Same with the pinnacle islands. It is highly Korean pov to call those rocks dokdo and it is highly japanese pov to call them Takeshima. Also, wikipedia is not a democracy and you can not vote in a pov name just because there are enough people that hold that pov who edit wikipedia. A neutral, ENGLISH name must be used for all articles. Masterhatch 19:15, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
done and done. most publications describe the islets as "dokdo in korean and takeshima in japanese" or "takeshima in japanese and dokdo in korean"; "liancourt rocks" is very rare, & cia is the exception, not the rule. where there is no common english name (although dokdo is more common than takeshima), the consistent wikipedia practice is to use the name used by the controlling party. wikipedia should not be in the business of promoting obscure french names for korean or japanese territories. we can change the wikipedia practice, but this page shouldn't be the sacrifical exception until a new naming convention is neutrally applied. to begin the change in naming conventions, please continue the discussion at
Talk:Senkaku Islands. thanks.
Appleby 23:17, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
do you really think Dokdo is more common than Takeshima? There are 120 million people call Takeshima on Earth at least , but how about Dokdo? there are ONLY 40 million people call Dokdo. and Appleby, the dispute of the Senkaku islands are not related to Korea. Don't be meddlesome. -- Himawarichan 00:08, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
To answer Himawarichan...hello, about your statement that Takeshima is more common name than Dokdo...literally you are correct, there are definitely more Japanese people than Koreans! But, we are talking about foreigners too! This is the second time I am saying this. Just because there is a bigger population doesn't nesscerily mean that the word "Takeshima" is more common. Good friend100 22:23, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
First of all, about the vote, I do hope that the vandalizers were not from Japanese Wikipedia. It just makes a bad impression. I also agree that another consensus should be taken again (this time with a notice and ending date).
Anyways, i would like to clarify something. I keep reading other peoples discussions that this is the English Wikipedia and therefore it should be "Liancourt Rocks" since "Dokdo" or "Takeshima" are not English words.
Yes you are correct but peoples! The internet is an international thing. There are thousands of networks all across the earth. Just because it is English Wikipedia doesn't mean that everything should be contained to just English words. For example, Sushi is a Japanese word but we use it and it is part of our vocabulary! There are hundreds of European and Asian words that we use as part of English. Many Spanish words are very similar to English words too.
Also, English is becoming a global language! There are many articles in the English Wikipedia because more and more people are learning English and speaking it. We don't have to argue about it. Good friend100
If this article title change results in more Wikipedians joining who will actively contribute to improving articles here, then I think that would be most welcome and a positive result of this debate. I do not, however, wish to see inanane comments, cursing, childish behavior, and solely politically-motivated statements coming from ni channeru members. The amount of anti-Chinese, anti-Korean, racist, and ultra-nationalistic posting going on there is not to be underestimated. New people joining should only make responsible posts using level-headed reasoning with facts. Anyhow, I hope we can see many more new Wikipedians joining who will contribute positively to all articles.-- Sir Edgar 05:02, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
Reito-maguro, I think it would be great if we have new Japanese Wikipedians joining in the discussion and helping to the improvement of all articles here at Wikipedia. However, I do not think that people simply coming to vote are contributing to the discussion. Opinions are important, but we want to see the reasoning behind the opinion. Simple statements like "Takeshima is Japanese and Koreans are dirtying it." or "This is unfair. Island's name is Takeshima." are not helpful. This is especially the case when such comments are coming from participants who are unsigned, unregistered, or newly-registered for the sole reason of voting in a poll that ended a week ago.-- Sir Edgar 01:21, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
No problem with the English. I think your English is quite good actually. You do speak in quite a Japanese way using very polite, but vague comments, which makes it difficult to comprehend what you're trying to say exactly. I guess it's a different form of expression, kinda like what we see between the British and Americans.
Honestly, I am severely disappointed by the lack of manners among the people posting here. Using sock puppet accounts, crude expressions, and empty political statements does not help the discussion at all. I was going to stop commenting on this Talk page and just go start work on UK-related articles because I see the discussion going nowhere but a mob re-vote. And this is by people who don't regularly visit the site and are using less than civilized tactics to do so. But I think your courtesy and reason convinced to me at least respond to your post.
Really, I find it difficult to absorb all of this. The Internet manners of the Japanese who have posted here could be seen by some as atrocious, especially compared to the impeccable manners I've seen in person and how well I've been treated when in Japan. I'm really shocked and yet I've seen it all before.
Reito-maguro, can you help us have a civil discussion based on facts and reason for the creation of the best article possible? Can we do this in an orderly, calm fashion without offensive remarks and rude insinuations?-- Sir Edgar 07:30, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
By the way, I wish that somebody would point to me it was said, "Dokdo is Korean and Japan's claims should be ignored." I just did a search of this page and the only person who used the word "ignore", or any form thereof, is you, Sekicho. You did it three times. So, please be careful about your statements. I would like to ask you to hold an unbiased reasoning with your comments and attitude.
I also searched the word "dirty" and it was used three times by what look like Japanese Wikipedians or ni channeru people, all in reference to Koreans. I think this kind of behavior is appalling. For those of you that don't know, many Japanese call foreigners, especially Koreans, "kitanai" (or dirty).-- Sir Edgar 08:37, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
Well you still know what Sir Edgar is trying to say he thinks that there are too many pro Japanese people and they are not keeping their manners on Wikipedia. Take a look at the vote and see how it got vandalized! I don't know if the people were from ni channeru or Japanese Wikpedia, or other people, but the Japanese side of this article now just looks bad. ...About VANK, I have never hear about this organization and it is interesting if they are secret supporters for Korea. And also, could someone explain what a "cyber terrorist" is? thanks Good friend100 21:52, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
Oyo321 00:09, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
Everybody should be cool down! By the way, I've been thought that I don't want to take ashamed action because here is the international place, but when I removed the article posted by Appleby, I got message of "Don't remove contents" from Deiaemeth, although he or she had never contributed that article. First, I couldn't understand what's mean, But now I understand. There are pro Korean people and sockpuppet here! (Is it already common sense? I'm sorry I did not know it because I was a beginner.) So, It is nonsense that some Korean people blame for 2-chan-nerra as if they do not do a wrong thing. and I say just to make sure, 2-chan-nerra are not pro like VANK. We will work as everybody peacefully as dirty! thanks -- TOMATOBOMB 02:24, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
What are you talking about "pro Koreans"?! Try seeing what happened to the poll and how someone vandalized it against the Korean side of the vote. Also to Oyo...we do not have to talk emotionally this discussion should be kept in a polite tone and a little more positive atmosphere. Good friend100 14:02, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
Should we stop altercations not related to the entry name "Clarification"? , such as "2chers are bad!" or "Vank is bad!" Reito-maguro 14:27, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
This is the official consensus of the US government by Dean Rusk about the Liancourt Rocks. And, this is the only opinion from the outsider's angle. To keep the wikipedia neutral, it is necessary regardless of the content. -- Himawarichan 01:02, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
But there are only Japan and Kores's insistences on the article. The outsider's opnion is very important especially in the English Wikipedia. -- Himawarichan 01:26, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
This is the important documents what intent is showed that the San Francisco treaty was written. You should not erase. Objectman 03:45, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
Japan was deprived of oversea territories precisely because the U.S.-led Allied Powers defeated Japan in the Pacific War, and it was the SCAP ( Supreme Commander of the Allied Powers) that redrew the national boundaries of post-war Japan and determined the attribution of islands such as the Liancourt rocks and Kuril Islands. Removing the info on the U.S. involvement because "it has no bearing" is ridiculous. Hermeneus ( user/ talk) 05:09, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
It's fine to include this document as a document, but the current edits trying to add it aren't up to par. For one thing, the Rusk letter has been tacked on at the end, totally out of place. For another thing, the text draws POV conclusions instead of just giving info about what the document says. For a third thing, it puts this under a heading that totally loses the context of what Rusk was writing. I'll try to rewrite in a more reasonable and less polemic way. -- Reuben 05:39, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
This page was recently the subject of the most ill-judged move in Wikipedia history; I've moved it back to Dokdo and move protected it. (There is a reason why we discuss moves first). Henry Flower 11:17, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
"They were released in 1965, under exchange condition with releasing 472 Korean prisoners who perpetrated crimes in Japan."
I feel that there is a need for a Korean point of view for this statement to make it neutral.
To my knowledge, those Koreans who were accused of doing crimes in Japan were related to Independent Army movement.
Additionally, I don't know how to archive this, but somebody needs to archive this discussion. Thanks. (
Wikimachine 14:03, 3 June 2006 (UTC))
The article states that a number of fishermen were detained in Korea "as hostages". Do we have factual basis for that, or would it be better to remove the "as hostages" bit? Rōnin 02:06, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
Takeshima is one of the peculiar territory in Japan. Korean govements have not been appreciated our historical things between Japan and Korea, and also, have strongly pressed their understanding of wrong history to Japan. I would like to tell you once again, Takeshima is a peculiar territory in Japan. saihiro 06:06, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
Man this page is overloading way too much. My lagging computer can't keep up. I suggest we put this in the archives. Ken ta987 07:47, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
Yes. This page is way too long. But it must be cut at the point when it is archived.-- Sir Edgar 02:15, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
I will move the entries from "1 POV" to "18 What the?" into an archive tomorrow temporary. After we agree on cut regions, I will do additional operates. Thanks. Reito-maguro 13:06, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
Doesn't the headline of "Wikiproject Japan" mislead to people that this article is trying to improve Japan and make the article into Japanese. Don't we need to put up a "Wikiproject Korea"? I think we need to do something about the Wikiproject Japan title. Good friend100 14:24, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
No, Im not trying to make the article Korean POV Im just wondering why the "Wikiproject Japan" is on this article. When I first saw it, it kind of makes it seem like the article is for Japan. Good friend100 17:28, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
Sorry if I seem too Korean POV but I agree with you Reito maguro, someone should post the "Korea Portal" at the top of the article page. Good friend100 22:36, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
I started a discussion a few days ago but unfortunately, I don't think anybody got the message. Anyways, i have read some users saying that "because this is English Wikipedia the name of the article should be Liancourt Rocks". I don't think this is true becaus first of all the internet is not restricted to only English speaking countries or English speaking people. The internet is an international thing. Also, more people are speaking English and English is becoming a global language. I can't believe some people think that the English Wikipedia is restricted to English users. Good friend100 14:31, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
Reito maguro...I'm just trying to clarify that just because it is English Wikipedia, doesn't mean only English articles must be in it. Several users are saying that "just because this is English Wikipedia, we must only use English names so Liancourt Rocks is the proper name" The word Liancourt Rocks is not even English, its French. Also, Im not talking about the poll Im just talking about how people think Dokdo and Takeshima are not English words.
To Himawarichan...I don't think we need to make a new English name, first of all that would be very confusing to neutral observers and also people outside of Wikipedia already call it the Liancourt Rocks. I just want to clarify that "just because this is English Wikipedia, we must only use English names so Liancourt Rocks is the proper name" is not a correct statement. Good friend100 17:32, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
A Japanese Wikipedian by the name Opp has been running around this entire page, obliteratng references to the name Dokdo, verifiable ancient records and online sources, and making original research based on his own personal observations. He should be at the very least prevented from editing this page in consideration of these examples of vandalism:
Considering what Opp has been trying to do to this article, it is clear that he has every intention to distort, omit, and pervert references to Korean terminology, cartography, and historiography in regard to Dokdo (examples 1~8). He also makes use of original research and inserts adds his own viewpoints (examples 9,10). Japanese POV has no place anywhere on this encyclopedia and thus all users of Wikipedia should oppose to Opp efforts to deny history. Thus I strongly suggest that Opp be prohibited from vandalizing this page until he can cite a logical motive to delete what are facts/references that perfectly belong to this article.-- Jh.daniell 11:09, 5 June 2006 (GMT+9:00-Tokyo)
Strongly Support: By all means, that's one less painful POV to handle. ( Wikimachine 22:11, 5 June 2006 (UTC))
Support: Reasons are because of the facts and evidence that Jh.daniell has recorded. Good friend100 22:45, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
at least some of the new editors constantly reverting this and related pages have been confirmed to be sockpuppets of User:Bright888 and have been blocked: [16]. perhaps page protection is the next step if this continues. Appleby 04:39, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
You should not make personal attacks. Your behavior is a crying shame.
Reito-maguro 14:49, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
Im sorry it just makes me angry that people are messing this discussion page up and how everyone is hostile toward each other. This is a discussion page not an all out war. Good friend100 21:07, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
As you can see above, there are many people against moving the article to Dokdo. But somehow those opinions are ignored. Let's start a vote all over again.
Dokdo → Liancourt Rocks Michael Friedrich 06:57, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
The last survey was seriously flawed and arguably invalid since there was no discussion on the nature of the survey beforehand. So I think another vote is mandatory. However, we have to conduct the survey in a manner that no one can challenge it. I think it better to wait for a while (a week or two) until the situation calms down. Then, we will invite as many people as possible to discuss the matter thoroughly (I think WP:RFC would be a good idea), after which we can have a vote.-- Dwy 15:34, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
By the way, Hermeneus, I rather think that you should retract that idiotic statement of yours in which you make the unfounded claim that Korean users had prepared to take over this article. You have no proof except for some lousy archive vote, in which none of the voters seemed Korean or had been proven to be so. Your claims are so thoroughly intergrated with the typical Japanese victim mentality and are living proof (along with the sock puppets employed above) of the far-fetchedness of the claims made by apologists in Japan, who continue to believe they are part of an international conspiracy.
Oppose: I am just voting because I supported the move from Liancourt Rocks to Dokdo on the previous vote. But I do not think the vote will turn out true since the sabotage attempt on the previous vote. Also, confirmation of sock puppet use is not going to bring out valid conclusions of this vote.
Oppose I wouldn't trust the poll votes, and not until sock-puppets have been snuffed out, it wouldn't be safe to hold a vote.
Oppose On previous arguments Ken ta987 00:33, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
Oppose Dokdo is Korea. Japan is an brazen-faced invader who have not reflect on conduct. Japanese are all dusty. Don`t forget Peal Harbor and Batan in Philippines -- Rheo1905 02:20, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
Oppose Don't repeat the same Request.
This is just one of my thoughts, but I've got a big question. Is,or will any type of military combat occur out of the rock disputes? Between South Korea and Japan. In history, some action has occured, including the sinking of a Japanese naval ship by Korean mortar. What do you think? Oyo321 00:38, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
As a wikipedian had said, I must highlight that in the total world makeup of the English-press that Liancourt Rocks is used mainly in Europe and to some extent, America, while the rest mentioned ....Dokdo (Takeshima)... in their articles mentioning the rocks. Currently, Dokdo is used as the principal name as it is under semi-legal control---my definition of semi-legal is that in a contested land the controller's (Korea) name is usually mentioned first followed by its contester (Japan). For now, even I vote oppose, I won't really mind having Liancourt Rocks as the article's name. Mr Tan 13:33, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
these are some of the problems i see:
this time, i have not simply reverted, kept some of your edits. that's about all i have time for right now, but please feel free to explain your edits before reverting again. Appleby 16:43, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
there is a related discussion and poll on the naming of one of the features around dokdo, currently underway at Talk:Tsushima Basin. please participate if interested. only editors with at least 100 previous edits & one-month history will be able to vote. Appleby 06:52, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
Information should not be artificially extracted from the perspective of South Korea.-- Opp 16:56, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
Opp, are you saying that all these records that support Korea's side are not good supporting facts? Why are you saying the Korean records are not good while leaving the Japanese records alone? Are you Japan POV? The statement Information should not be artificially extracted from the perspective of Japan must be true as well. Good friend100 02:12, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
I hear this everyday. Dokdo and Takeshima are bull. They're foreign. Lets name the rocks Liancourt since that is most neutral. I do agree that articles in debate must be kept neutral, to satisfy users new and old. But wikipedia is a historical information site. Everything that gets edited must be sure to be historically true, or Wikipedia will be blamed for giving wrong information to users, as was a couple months ago. Dokdo is the most common and most historically correct name of the rocks. Liancourt is uncommon, and Takeshima was named by Japan in order to try and take the island.
The reason why Takeshima is becoming a more common name is national supremacy and recognition over South Korea. I hope everybody agrees, that, in history, stronger, more powerful and distinguished nations get the "right" to name a surrounding landmark or body of water. It always has been that way.
Because Japan is more known around the world, most people think that Japan must be able to name Sea of Japan. Japan must name Dokdo, if not own it. Take a look at the Gulf of Mexico. If before the Gulf was named, and Mexico named it the Gulf of Mexico, and Cuba stepped in and said "we want to name the gulf," would anybody listen to them? No one would give a squat, the way nobody would probably give a squat to South Korea. Oyo321 23:49, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
"Takeshima Tokai Yuraiki Bassho Hikae, written by Ōya Kyuemon, records that in 1618 the Tokugawa Shogunate granted the Ōya and Murakawa families of Yonago fishing rights, and in 1661, feudal tenure, of "Takeshima", which then referred to Ulleung-do. On the way to Ulleung-do, Japanese fishermen sometimes used the islets, then called in Japanese "Matsushima" (松島), as an intermediate port of call."
This paragraph comes from the article of Dokdo. It reads that the Shogunate granted the Oya and Murakawa families fishing rights. But why did Japanese citizens need to get permission from the Japanese goverment if Japan claimed the islets as their own? If a territory is part of a country why would its own citizens have to get a permission just to go to an islet? If this is true, then Japan must have not considered Dokdo its own territory since permission had to be granted just to go there and fish. This must mean that Japan didn't think of Dokdo as their own territory. Good friend100 02:33, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
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