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I don't dispute that waterboarding is torture, but I think it is misleading to use the word as a section heading to summarise the whole incident as the only evidence that waterboarding occurred was the subject's own testimony - we can't rely on this as fact, he could easily have lied. Basalisk inspect damage⁄ berate 22:50, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
The discussion is at
Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard#Liam_Holden
193.150.8.156 (
talk)
23:35, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
Per the outcome of a WP:DRN thread, where the IP editor above appeared to actually agree with the change I was implementing, I've changed the heading to the agreed text of "Arrest and interrogation". Basalisk inspect damage⁄ berate 23:34, 25 June 2012 (UTC)
I closed the DRN thread because both of you agreed to the "Arrest and interrogation" and I fully expected that would become the subhead. When I said "drop the stick" I was quite clearly only referring to conduct issues not the issue of what the subhead should be. I said, "Both editors agree that 'Arrest and interrogation' is the better heading. All that remains are conduct issues and questions and this noticeboard is only for content issues. If you really want some advice or comment upon the conduct issues, then WP:WQA or WP:RFC/U is the proper venue, but it appears to me that both of you have made your point and that it might be better to just drop the stick." (Emphasis added.) I agree with both of you: "Arrest and interrogation" is clearly the better, less provocative subhead and I can see no reason for this edit war to continue. Regards, TransporterMan ( TALK) 04:29, 3 July 2012 (UTC)
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The article, and particularly the arrest and interrogation section, reads quite well. The text is neutral and cited; Ian Cobain's Guardian piece (reference 5) is thorough and careful in its claims. Basalisk is correct, above, that Cobain never claims in his voice that "torture" or even "waterboarding" occurred in this case. He instead provides fact after fact leading the reader to a conclusion based on the preponderance of evidence.
Without a credible, evidence-based statement in a reliable source that torture occurred, I don't think we can say it did in wikipedia's voice. We can instead take Cobain's approach, providing sourced facts leading the reader to a pretty clear conclusion. I understand and sympathize with the IP's view, which probably aligns with my personal evaluation of what happened forty-odd years ago. Yet, direct accusations of torture are not for us to make . So, the current heading "Arrest and interrogation" seems perfect. Moishe Rosenbaum ( talk) 12:56, 5 July 2012 (UTC) |
The article seems to confuse the European Commission on Human Rights and the European Convention on Human Rights
![]() | A news item involving Liam Holden was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the In the news section on 22 September 2022. | ![]() |
While the biographies of living persons policy does not apply directly to the subject of this article, it may contain material that relates to living persons, such as friends and family of persons no longer living, or living persons involved in the subject matter. Unsourced or poorly sourced contentious material about living persons must be removed immediately. If such material is re-inserted repeatedly, or if there are other concerns related to this policy, please see this noticeboard. |
![]() | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | It is requested that a photograph be
included in this article to
improve its quality.
The external tool WordPress Openverse may be able to locate suitable images on Flickr and other web sites. |
I don't dispute that waterboarding is torture, but I think it is misleading to use the word as a section heading to summarise the whole incident as the only evidence that waterboarding occurred was the subject's own testimony - we can't rely on this as fact, he could easily have lied. Basalisk inspect damage⁄ berate 22:50, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
The discussion is at
Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard#Liam_Holden
193.150.8.156 (
talk)
23:35, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
Per the outcome of a WP:DRN thread, where the IP editor above appeared to actually agree with the change I was implementing, I've changed the heading to the agreed text of "Arrest and interrogation". Basalisk inspect damage⁄ berate 23:34, 25 June 2012 (UTC)
I closed the DRN thread because both of you agreed to the "Arrest and interrogation" and I fully expected that would become the subhead. When I said "drop the stick" I was quite clearly only referring to conduct issues not the issue of what the subhead should be. I said, "Both editors agree that 'Arrest and interrogation' is the better heading. All that remains are conduct issues and questions and this noticeboard is only for content issues. If you really want some advice or comment upon the conduct issues, then WP:WQA or WP:RFC/U is the proper venue, but it appears to me that both of you have made your point and that it might be better to just drop the stick." (Emphasis added.) I agree with both of you: "Arrest and interrogation" is clearly the better, less provocative subhead and I can see no reason for this edit war to continue. Regards, TransporterMan ( TALK) 04:29, 3 July 2012 (UTC)
![]() |
The article, and particularly the arrest and interrogation section, reads quite well. The text is neutral and cited; Ian Cobain's Guardian piece (reference 5) is thorough and careful in its claims. Basalisk is correct, above, that Cobain never claims in his voice that "torture" or even "waterboarding" occurred in this case. He instead provides fact after fact leading the reader to a conclusion based on the preponderance of evidence.
Without a credible, evidence-based statement in a reliable source that torture occurred, I don't think we can say it did in wikipedia's voice. We can instead take Cobain's approach, providing sourced facts leading the reader to a pretty clear conclusion. I understand and sympathize with the IP's view, which probably aligns with my personal evaluation of what happened forty-odd years ago. Yet, direct accusations of torture are not for us to make . So, the current heading "Arrest and interrogation" seems perfect. Moishe Rosenbaum ( talk) 12:56, 5 July 2012 (UTC) |
The article seems to confuse the European Commission on Human Rights and the European Convention on Human Rights