This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||
|
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 3 external links on Lezhë. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 22:37, 29 November 2017 (UTC)
The given source does not agree with that: CAH states that the southernmost Illyrian tribe was located in Zeta valley, Montenegro. An Illyrian presence there is recorded in the Classical Age: p. 629 [ [1]].
The name 'Illyrian' which the Greeks applied to their neighbours in the north-west area seems to have originated in a tribe of “Illyrii' resident in classical times near the mouth of the Drin (Drilon) and described as Illyrii proprie dicti. At some time they were probably the southernmost outliers of the tribes which held the Zeta valley, and as such they may have been the immediate neighbours of Greek-speaking tribes in the Bronze Age.
Alexikoua ( talk) 11:43, 2 May 2020 (UTC)
"Native Illyrians do not figure in the story of the colony on Black Corcyra but they are certainly prominent in the early history of the colony settled in 385 BC on the island Pharos (Hvar) from the Aegean island Paros, famed for its marble. In traditional fashion they accepted the guidance of an oracle, but the settlers received more tangible assistance from Dionysius, the ambitious ruler of Syracuse, who had around the same time engineered an Illyrian attack on the Molossians in Epirus. The account of Diodorus says that he had already sent a colony to the Adriatic and founded 'the city named Lissus'. The Parians on Pharos were soon in difficulties with the natives and needed help from the tyrant. [...] The third Greek colony known in this central sector of the Dalmatian coast was Issa on the north side of the island Vis. Nothing is recorded of its foundation, but coins and internal organization (recorded on inscriptions) suggest that it was a Syracusan settlement. It has been proposed that it was this place and not Lissus far to the south at the mouth of the Drin from which help came to the Greeks on Pharos, since Issa lies only 25 miles away. The voyage from Lissus was more than ten times as long, but a garrison at the latter would fit better with Dionysius' schemes involving Illyrians and Molossians. A more stable relationship with native Illyrians is implied by the decree recording the details of a settlement from Issa on Black Corcyra. [...] After 350 BC Illyrian towns are believed to have become established at Lissus (Lezha) and Shkoder. [...] Studies of the well-preserved fortifications at Acrolissus and Lissus suggest that the former came first and was built in the late fourth century. There was a major reconstruction of the latter in the first century BC, when the more roughly dressed blocks were replaced by smooth, close-fitting masonry. No interior structures have yet been located. The function of Lissus (...) near the mouth of the Drin was to guard the route inland and to furnish a secure anchorage for Illyrian shipping."
"The foundation of the Lissus colony is presented by Diodorus as actual event, but subsequently, Lissus is no longer connected with Syracuse. The recovery of the ramparts of Lissus by Albanian archaeologists has led them to a date of towards the end of the 4th century B.C., long before the port of Lissus became the Macedonian outled to the Adriatic in the period of Pilip V in 213 B.B. If, therefore, one accepts the veracity of Diodorus' text regarding Syracusan settlement in Lissus in 385 B.C., or a little earlier, it is very probable that this colony had a short life. The site was subsequently occupied by Illyrian populations from the interior, who built a town surrounded by ramparts facing the low valley of the Drin and towards the sea—as if its buolders had wanted to defend themselves against possible invaders from the sea. Yet the position of the town and its surroundings prevented any defence against attacks from the interior, as Dionysius should have known. Therefore, we must cease to regard the Lissus enclosure as a creation of the tyrant of Syracuse, but rather see it as the work of a local population who feared an invasion from the sea. The enclosure is dominated by a fortress, the Acrolissus, built on a mountain which is 413 m high. It could not have been from Lissus, as suggested by Diodorus (...), that Dionysius came in aid of the colonists from Paros who wanted to settle in Pharos; the island of Issa could have been used as a base for a Syracusan squadron which intervened when the Parians were threatened by the Illyrians in Pharos. In the same period, according to Diodorus (...), the Parians founded a colony, Pharos, on the present island of Hvar, at the end of a ria, the location of which suggests that these seamen from the Cyclades had an exellent knowledge of the Dalmatian island. Shortly afterwards, the local populations of Hvar island called for help the Illyrians from the neighbouring mainland (the region close to Split), who arrived, 10,000 strong, on small boats and take on the Greek colonists. The governor (eparchos) established by Dionysius at Issa (not Lissus, which was too distant), then viforously intervened with triremes, destroying the small Illyrian boats. Relations between Paros and Pharos were still very much alive to the end pf the 3rd century or beginning of the 2nd century B.C., as shown by the fine inscription published by L. Robert."
Diodorus ("Library", 15.1, ca. 1st century BC) mentions that Dionysius of Syracuse founded a "city named Lissus" in the year 385 BC, but modern scholars suggest that this Syracusan colony was established at Issa near the island of Pharos, not at Lissus. ( Wilkes 1992, p. 115) Even if Diodorus' account about a Syracusan colony at Lissus is accepted as accurate, it is very likely that this colony had a short life. ( Tsetskhladze 2008, p. 177) Except Diodorus' reporting, Lissus is no longer connected with Syracuse. ( Tsetskhladze 2008, p. 176)
Illyrians from the nearby mainland to attack the newly settled Greeks, who were aided by Dionysius' governor of Lissos.
is that also not important for addition?
Alexikoua (
talk) 14:30, 24 May 2020 (UTC)
The contemporary Syracusan colonies in the Adriatic - Adria, Ankon, Lissos - also seem to be founded as a result of some agreement with native communities (Gauls, Illyrians), preferably in border areas.[
[5]
Alexikoua (
talk) 14:37, 24 May 2020 (UTC)
The recovery of the ramparts of Lissus by Albanian archaeologists has led them to a date of towards the end of the 4th century B.C., long before the port of Lissus became the Macedonian outled to the Adriatic in the period of Pilip V in 213 B.B. If, therefore, one accepts the veracity of Diodorus' text regarding Syracusan settlement in Lissus in 385 B.C., or a little earlier, it is very probable that this colony had a short life. The site was subsequently occupied by Illyrian populations from the interior, who built a town surrounded by ramparts facing the low valley of the Drin and towards the sea—as if its buolders had wanted to defend themselves against possible invaders from the sea.?-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 14:44, 24 May 2020 (UTC)
A more stable relationship with native Illyrians is implied by the decree recording the details of a settlement from Issa on Black Corcyra.) and Tsetskhladze (
The governor (eparchos) established by Dionysius at Issa (not Lissus, which was too distant). – Βατο ( talk) 14:52, 24 May 2020 (UTC)
The name of the colony in Diodorus’ text is denoted as Lissus, and not Issa1 which is precisely the cause of disagreement among the scholars. Some scholars believe that the name of the established colony was written incorrectly as Lissos, instead of Issa2. Others believe that the name was written correctly and the new colony is not Issa on the island of Vis, but today’s Lezhë in Albania
Actually this is a very interesting piece of information that needs to be added in history section. I wonder what makes Tsetskhladze eliminating the rest of the bibliography. This can be easily considered disruption and stubborn opposition to add sourced information. Alexikoua ( talk) 14:57, 24 May 2020 (UTC)
...coins and internal organization (recorded on inscriptions) suggest that it was a Syracusan settlement.). – Βατο ( talk) 15:22, 24 May 2020 (UTC)
If, therefore, one accepts the veracity of Diodorus' text regarding Syracusan settlement in Lissus in 385 B.C., or a little earlier, it is very probable that this colony had a short life.. Well, I don't see a reason why this should vanish from history section. All available sources mentions this part in the context of Lissus: some of them are certain while some others state that this was a short term colony. Simply ignoring it falls directly to wp:IDONTLIKEIT. Alexikoua ( talk) 05:21, 25 May 2020 (UTC)
Ok, there are now at least 6 sources (and in all likelihood many more) that do claim that there was a Syracusan colony as Lissus:
With this in mind, both views should be presented in the article. Tsetskhladze is after all only a single source, so if anything his view is a minority view. Per WP:NPOV and WP:RS, all views from reliable sources should be given due weight. Khirurg ( talk) 03:44, 26 May 2020 (UTC)
I also removed
[13] Unlike at Lezhë, coins and internal organization (recorded on inscriptions) are found at Issa, suggesting that the latter was a Syracusan settlement.
as Wilkes does not state anywhere that no Syracusan coins were found}} at Lissos. While Wilkes does say Syracusan coins were found at Issa, this article is about Issa. However, nowhere on p. 115 does he state that Syracusan coins were not found at Lissos.
Khirurg (
talk) 04:00, 26 May 2020 (UTC)
The city was separated into sectors by diateichismain the part regarding the possible colony founded in 385 BC, in a time when the city walls did not yet exist and there was still not even a city to be "separated in sectors by diateichisma"? You should read some sources about the archaeological excavations at Lezhë and inform yourself on the recent research before making such statements. – Βατο ( talk) 15:12, 26 May 2020 (UTC)
"Diateichisma walls divided the city into zones, perhaps based upon different functions."– Βατο ( talk) 14:33, 27 May 2020 (UTC)
Le système de fortification de Lissus avec ses tours et murs, qui enferment l'Acropole et la ville inférieure, semble avoir été établi dès le IVe siècle, incorporant des murs plus anciens datant du VIe siècle. By the way the specific source is among dozens that accepts the Syraccusan colonization of the settlement. Alexikoua ( talk) 15:34, 27 May 2020 (UTC)
This, however, is hardly decisive. Dionysius' foundation may have been on a small scale and of short duration and therefore difficult to trace on the ground."Alexikoua ( talk) 15:43, 27 May 2020 (UTC)
I can't see a valid reason why this is not compatible with Lissus. Stylianou for example mentions the Illyrian fortification and the Hellenistic pottery, everything seems fine. Moreover, Papadopoulos' research is a quite recent. Alexikoua ( talk) 11:33, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
indigenous sites that became, by the 4th century BC or later, cities very much organised on a Greek model (e.g. Byllis, Nikaia, Amantia, Lissos)does not state anything precise about the settlement at Lissus in the 4th century BC. In the late 4th century BC the settlement was established with an indigenous character, similar to other northern settlements (you can consult Shpuza and Dyczek for recent publications). In the section there is already the information about the organization as a proper polis, which happened about the 3rd-2nd centuries BC. Also Stylianou p. 194
One problem with this is that archaeology does not seem to support the first reading: the pottery at Lissos is Hellenistic or later and the earliest of the fortification walls seems to date to the late 4th century and to be of native Illyrian constructionis not precise for your other addition: "The pottery unearthed in Lissus from that period was of the Hellenistic type". You should avoid adding misleading anachronistic informations. – Βατο ( talk) 12:25, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||
|
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 3 external links on Lezhë. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 22:37, 29 November 2017 (UTC)
The given source does not agree with that: CAH states that the southernmost Illyrian tribe was located in Zeta valley, Montenegro. An Illyrian presence there is recorded in the Classical Age: p. 629 [ [1]].
The name 'Illyrian' which the Greeks applied to their neighbours in the north-west area seems to have originated in a tribe of “Illyrii' resident in classical times near the mouth of the Drin (Drilon) and described as Illyrii proprie dicti. At some time they were probably the southernmost outliers of the tribes which held the Zeta valley, and as such they may have been the immediate neighbours of Greek-speaking tribes in the Bronze Age.
Alexikoua ( talk) 11:43, 2 May 2020 (UTC)
"Native Illyrians do not figure in the story of the colony on Black Corcyra but they are certainly prominent in the early history of the colony settled in 385 BC on the island Pharos (Hvar) from the Aegean island Paros, famed for its marble. In traditional fashion they accepted the guidance of an oracle, but the settlers received more tangible assistance from Dionysius, the ambitious ruler of Syracuse, who had around the same time engineered an Illyrian attack on the Molossians in Epirus. The account of Diodorus says that he had already sent a colony to the Adriatic and founded 'the city named Lissus'. The Parians on Pharos were soon in difficulties with the natives and needed help from the tyrant. [...] The third Greek colony known in this central sector of the Dalmatian coast was Issa on the north side of the island Vis. Nothing is recorded of its foundation, but coins and internal organization (recorded on inscriptions) suggest that it was a Syracusan settlement. It has been proposed that it was this place and not Lissus far to the south at the mouth of the Drin from which help came to the Greeks on Pharos, since Issa lies only 25 miles away. The voyage from Lissus was more than ten times as long, but a garrison at the latter would fit better with Dionysius' schemes involving Illyrians and Molossians. A more stable relationship with native Illyrians is implied by the decree recording the details of a settlement from Issa on Black Corcyra. [...] After 350 BC Illyrian towns are believed to have become established at Lissus (Lezha) and Shkoder. [...] Studies of the well-preserved fortifications at Acrolissus and Lissus suggest that the former came first and was built in the late fourth century. There was a major reconstruction of the latter in the first century BC, when the more roughly dressed blocks were replaced by smooth, close-fitting masonry. No interior structures have yet been located. The function of Lissus (...) near the mouth of the Drin was to guard the route inland and to furnish a secure anchorage for Illyrian shipping."
"The foundation of the Lissus colony is presented by Diodorus as actual event, but subsequently, Lissus is no longer connected with Syracuse. The recovery of the ramparts of Lissus by Albanian archaeologists has led them to a date of towards the end of the 4th century B.C., long before the port of Lissus became the Macedonian outled to the Adriatic in the period of Pilip V in 213 B.B. If, therefore, one accepts the veracity of Diodorus' text regarding Syracusan settlement in Lissus in 385 B.C., or a little earlier, it is very probable that this colony had a short life. The site was subsequently occupied by Illyrian populations from the interior, who built a town surrounded by ramparts facing the low valley of the Drin and towards the sea—as if its buolders had wanted to defend themselves against possible invaders from the sea. Yet the position of the town and its surroundings prevented any defence against attacks from the interior, as Dionysius should have known. Therefore, we must cease to regard the Lissus enclosure as a creation of the tyrant of Syracuse, but rather see it as the work of a local population who feared an invasion from the sea. The enclosure is dominated by a fortress, the Acrolissus, built on a mountain which is 413 m high. It could not have been from Lissus, as suggested by Diodorus (...), that Dionysius came in aid of the colonists from Paros who wanted to settle in Pharos; the island of Issa could have been used as a base for a Syracusan squadron which intervened when the Parians were threatened by the Illyrians in Pharos. In the same period, according to Diodorus (...), the Parians founded a colony, Pharos, on the present island of Hvar, at the end of a ria, the location of which suggests that these seamen from the Cyclades had an exellent knowledge of the Dalmatian island. Shortly afterwards, the local populations of Hvar island called for help the Illyrians from the neighbouring mainland (the region close to Split), who arrived, 10,000 strong, on small boats and take on the Greek colonists. The governor (eparchos) established by Dionysius at Issa (not Lissus, which was too distant), then viforously intervened with triremes, destroying the small Illyrian boats. Relations between Paros and Pharos were still very much alive to the end pf the 3rd century or beginning of the 2nd century B.C., as shown by the fine inscription published by L. Robert."
Diodorus ("Library", 15.1, ca. 1st century BC) mentions that Dionysius of Syracuse founded a "city named Lissus" in the year 385 BC, but modern scholars suggest that this Syracusan colony was established at Issa near the island of Pharos, not at Lissus. ( Wilkes 1992, p. 115) Even if Diodorus' account about a Syracusan colony at Lissus is accepted as accurate, it is very likely that this colony had a short life. ( Tsetskhladze 2008, p. 177) Except Diodorus' reporting, Lissus is no longer connected with Syracuse. ( Tsetskhladze 2008, p. 176)
Illyrians from the nearby mainland to attack the newly settled Greeks, who were aided by Dionysius' governor of Lissos.
is that also not important for addition?
Alexikoua (
talk) 14:30, 24 May 2020 (UTC)
The contemporary Syracusan colonies in the Adriatic - Adria, Ankon, Lissos - also seem to be founded as a result of some agreement with native communities (Gauls, Illyrians), preferably in border areas.[
[5]
Alexikoua (
talk) 14:37, 24 May 2020 (UTC)
The recovery of the ramparts of Lissus by Albanian archaeologists has led them to a date of towards the end of the 4th century B.C., long before the port of Lissus became the Macedonian outled to the Adriatic in the period of Pilip V in 213 B.B. If, therefore, one accepts the veracity of Diodorus' text regarding Syracusan settlement in Lissus in 385 B.C., or a little earlier, it is very probable that this colony had a short life. The site was subsequently occupied by Illyrian populations from the interior, who built a town surrounded by ramparts facing the low valley of the Drin and towards the sea—as if its buolders had wanted to defend themselves against possible invaders from the sea.?-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 14:44, 24 May 2020 (UTC)
A more stable relationship with native Illyrians is implied by the decree recording the details of a settlement from Issa on Black Corcyra.) and Tsetskhladze (
The governor (eparchos) established by Dionysius at Issa (not Lissus, which was too distant). – Βατο ( talk) 14:52, 24 May 2020 (UTC)
The name of the colony in Diodorus’ text is denoted as Lissus, and not Issa1 which is precisely the cause of disagreement among the scholars. Some scholars believe that the name of the established colony was written incorrectly as Lissos, instead of Issa2. Others believe that the name was written correctly and the new colony is not Issa on the island of Vis, but today’s Lezhë in Albania
Actually this is a very interesting piece of information that needs to be added in history section. I wonder what makes Tsetskhladze eliminating the rest of the bibliography. This can be easily considered disruption and stubborn opposition to add sourced information. Alexikoua ( talk) 14:57, 24 May 2020 (UTC)
...coins and internal organization (recorded on inscriptions) suggest that it was a Syracusan settlement.). – Βατο ( talk) 15:22, 24 May 2020 (UTC)
If, therefore, one accepts the veracity of Diodorus' text regarding Syracusan settlement in Lissus in 385 B.C., or a little earlier, it is very probable that this colony had a short life.. Well, I don't see a reason why this should vanish from history section. All available sources mentions this part in the context of Lissus: some of them are certain while some others state that this was a short term colony. Simply ignoring it falls directly to wp:IDONTLIKEIT. Alexikoua ( talk) 05:21, 25 May 2020 (UTC)
Ok, there are now at least 6 sources (and in all likelihood many more) that do claim that there was a Syracusan colony as Lissus:
With this in mind, both views should be presented in the article. Tsetskhladze is after all only a single source, so if anything his view is a minority view. Per WP:NPOV and WP:RS, all views from reliable sources should be given due weight. Khirurg ( talk) 03:44, 26 May 2020 (UTC)
I also removed
[13] Unlike at Lezhë, coins and internal organization (recorded on inscriptions) are found at Issa, suggesting that the latter was a Syracusan settlement.
as Wilkes does not state anywhere that no Syracusan coins were found}} at Lissos. While Wilkes does say Syracusan coins were found at Issa, this article is about Issa. However, nowhere on p. 115 does he state that Syracusan coins were not found at Lissos.
Khirurg (
talk) 04:00, 26 May 2020 (UTC)
The city was separated into sectors by diateichismain the part regarding the possible colony founded in 385 BC, in a time when the city walls did not yet exist and there was still not even a city to be "separated in sectors by diateichisma"? You should read some sources about the archaeological excavations at Lezhë and inform yourself on the recent research before making such statements. – Βατο ( talk) 15:12, 26 May 2020 (UTC)
"Diateichisma walls divided the city into zones, perhaps based upon different functions."– Βατο ( talk) 14:33, 27 May 2020 (UTC)
Le système de fortification de Lissus avec ses tours et murs, qui enferment l'Acropole et la ville inférieure, semble avoir été établi dès le IVe siècle, incorporant des murs plus anciens datant du VIe siècle. By the way the specific source is among dozens that accepts the Syraccusan colonization of the settlement. Alexikoua ( talk) 15:34, 27 May 2020 (UTC)
This, however, is hardly decisive. Dionysius' foundation may have been on a small scale and of short duration and therefore difficult to trace on the ground."Alexikoua ( talk) 15:43, 27 May 2020 (UTC)
I can't see a valid reason why this is not compatible with Lissus. Stylianou for example mentions the Illyrian fortification and the Hellenistic pottery, everything seems fine. Moreover, Papadopoulos' research is a quite recent. Alexikoua ( talk) 11:33, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
indigenous sites that became, by the 4th century BC or later, cities very much organised on a Greek model (e.g. Byllis, Nikaia, Amantia, Lissos)does not state anything precise about the settlement at Lissus in the 4th century BC. In the late 4th century BC the settlement was established with an indigenous character, similar to other northern settlements (you can consult Shpuza and Dyczek for recent publications). In the section there is already the information about the organization as a proper polis, which happened about the 3rd-2nd centuries BC. Also Stylianou p. 194
One problem with this is that archaeology does not seem to support the first reading: the pottery at Lissos is Hellenistic or later and the earliest of the fortification walls seems to date to the late 4th century and to be of native Illyrian constructionis not precise for your other addition: "The pottery unearthed in Lissus from that period was of the Hellenistic type". You should avoid adding misleading anachronistic informations. – Βατο ( talk) 12:25, 2 June 2020 (UTC)