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Before the article was protected, someone added "Senate Majority leader Harry Reid and many other politicians have called on Bush to announce that he will definitely not pardon Libby." before the note citation for the previous sentence but did not provide a source citation for the additional sentence. That is extremely misleading. The sentence needs a "full [source] citation" that can be verified by other Wikipedia users. See the template at top and Wikipedia:Citations, Wikipedia:Verifiability as well as WP:BLP, calling for "full citations" for information added to "controversial articles": Wikipedia:Guidelines for controversial articles. [I know that the sentence['s reference to Reid's being against the pardon] is accurate; but it still needs a full citation. Also, the note that it comes before is meant to follow the previous sentence. The new sentence needs to be added after the already-existing note citation (reference), followed by a new source citation documenting that new sentence.] --NYScholar 06:54, 28 March 2007 (UTC) [updated. See my comment directly below regarding the vague and equally-undocumented ref. to "many other politicians." --NYScholar 10:10, 31 March 2007 (UTC)]
Calls for Libby to be pardoned by President George W. Bush appeared in some newspapers; some of them are posted online by the Libby Legal Defense Trust. [1] U.S. Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid issued a press release about the verdict, urging President Bush to pledge not to pardon Libby, and other Democratic politicians followed suit. [2]
[see Editing mode for the full citations; they would show up w/ all the previous citations if I add a "Notes" section directly below; to avoid repeating earlier notes too, I'm not adding a "Notes" section below.] --NYScholar 07:14, 5 April 2007 (UTC); updated --NYScholar 03:49, 6 April 2007 (UTC)]
{{ editprotected}}
The article on Libby as it stands too closely conforms to partisan reporting in the media. Wiki should follow NPV. The specific issue is that the article suggests that Libby was accused or took part in a crime of "the alleged unauthorized disclosure of a CIA employee's identity", and that the crime was not prosecuted because Libby withheld information. Clearly, this is not true. Prosecutor Fitzgerald clearly knew the identity of the person who did disclose Valerie Plamm's identity and Fitzgerald, prior to the multiple instances in which Libby was questioned under threat of perjury. Secondly, while Valerie Plamm did work at the CIA, she was not a covert agent of the sort whose identity was protected by law, nor was the fact that she worked at the CIA a secret. Clearly, Libby was accused of crimes because his recollections changed during the course of the process and a jury concluded that constituted a crime. Clearly, the conviction is fact and newsworthy. However, at the same time the underlying facts related to Fitzgerald's investigation are just as newsworthy. I'm not suggesting that "Fitzgerald's investigation and prosecution appears to be politically motivated" needs to in the article. I am saying that Fitzgerald's knowledge of the identity of the "leaker" prior to his pursuit of Libby is a relevant fact that needs to be disclosed, and that the "leaking" of Valerie's Plamm's name was not, and would not have been a crime. Can an administrator "editprotected" these two points or get a discussion going? -- Knowsetfree 17:57, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
underlying article is editprotected already, and I just want the issue discussed. Thanks. Knowsetfree 16:58, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
Above user Knowsetfree is not giving an accurate account. The article is not "too close to partisan reporting in the media" and does not lack neutral point of view. If the facts are similar to the facts presented in the media, it is because they are the same facts. The one sentence that seems to pertain to what Knowsetfree may be referring to (the user does not make clear what sentence or sentences s/he is referring to), is actually a citation from Fitzgerald's direct interview remarks after the conviction that relates to his pre-conviction, indictment press conference remarks (quoted directly in the notes to this article). [The citation simply documents what Fitzgerald said--his saying it is the fact it documents.] Fitzgerald revealed both in his five-count indictment of Libby and in his post-conviction comments on Libby's obstruction of justice, false statements, and perjury convictions that there may have and probably were more than one person who was an official in the Bush administration who revealed Valerie E. Wilson's classified CIA status (not merely Armitage) and that Libby's lies obstructed the investigation into who all of these people were; Fitzgerald would not name them, because they were not charged in any indictment; only Libby was. F. could not discuss anyone not so charged (not the subject of the grand-jury indictment, he said). The current version of the article makes clear that Libby kept the grand jury investigation into the CIA leak from being able to gather all the facts (whatever they were). This Wikipedia article is clear about that. I do not think that this article requires the revision that that user claims that it does. Its sources of facts stated are cited (except for the sentence added re: democratic politicians and call for no pardon: see #Unsourced statement on that).
Users need to consult the talk page on the article (including the archives) where discussion of these matters have already occurred. Users also need to read the sources cited in the notes in the cross-linked article on the Plame affair, which quotes directly Fitzgerald's press conference remarks and his later remarks, not merely so-called "partisan" media accounts of them. The pertinent primary sources are noted, quoted, and/or listed in the full citations if one needs to verify what they say in this article and various related cross-linked ones. For example, the civil suit maintains charges based on Fitzgerald's previous indictment charges against Libby, which include others in the Bush administration about which the grand jury investigation indictment of Libby did not focus--Armitage, Rove, and Cheney--all of whom it appears that Fitzgerald is not charging with any federal crimes. A civil suit differs from a criminal suit; but the same facts found in the criminal trial would seem to apply to some of the allegations in the civil trial. Libby's perjury before the grand jury and his false statements to federal investigators, and the resulting obstruction of justice ensuing from them are the federal crimes of which he was convicted, and those convictions have become a further basis for the claims of the plaintiffs in the civil suit pertaining to Libby and three other members or former members of the Bush administration: Cheney, Rove, and Armitage. When the civil suit goes to court and is resolved, one can report further facts about that case and that resolution, both of which also involve Libby as well as the others.
It appears to me that the user making the comment above is carrying over arguments already discussed in articles like the Plame affair and trying to bring them back into this article on Libby. It is not appropriate to push some POV on the Plame affair controversy in this article on Libby. That is not within the guidelines of Wikipedia:Neutral point of view. That is the user's own POV, not neutral point of view. Moreover, the user's statement about what is "clearly" the case is not supported by the actual jury verdict; this user was not a member of the jury and there is no place here for his POV: "Clearly, Libby was accused of crimes because his recollections changed during the course of the process and a jury concluded that constituted a crime." The jury convicted Libby on the basis of their not believing his account that "his recollections changed...." yet this user says the opposite; that is the user's POV not fact; it is one of the very basic points disputed by the jury as not at all being what "clearly" happened, in their judgment, despite Libby's defense. The defense lost that argument, yet the user persists in making it here. That is "clearly" not "neutral point of view."
By even implying that "Fitzgerald's investigation was politically motivated" (which is not at all a fact with any support from reliable verifiable sources), the user injects his own POV in this backhanded manner and reveals what his POV is (the user just had to get that in while in the midst of denying that he was trying to do that). Very misleading.
In addition, Fitzgerald's own indictment press conference made it clear that his "Fitzgerald's knowledge of the identity of the various leakers prior to his pursuit of Libby" (note the once-again POV language here: "his pursuit of Libby") is entirely irrelevant, since Libby was being indicted for his own behavior in the grand jury investigation and related FBI investigation. Re: the user's own POV statement: "Prosecutor Fitzgerald clearly knew the identity of the person who did disclose Valerie Plamm's [sic] identity...."; that statement reveals that this user is not knowledgable about this subject of the Plame affair, since there were clearly many people who "did disclose Valerie [Plame's] identity" and not just one person. [I suppose the user refers to Armitage; Armitage was simply the person who disclosed it first to Robert Novak, but he was not only not the only one who disclosed it, but he was one of many, including Libby. See the Plame affair.) Libby's criminal trial did not concern that disclosure as a criminal act; the trial (on the five-count indictment) was about the criminally false and perjurious statements that Libby himself made in the grand jury and FBI investigations related to the leaking of Valerie E. Wilson's classified CIA identity as a covert agent (we know now, given recent House hearing). The trial concerned his indictment counts, not anything or anyone else. (The defense raising the issue of his memory was just that: a defense against those charges; the defense failed on four of the five counts.) See the updates to the articles on all the various other parties linked in Plame Affair article for more information about the other issues. --NYScholar 08:43, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
If Libby had not made false statements, perjured himself, and obstructed justice, he would not have been indicted and convicted for those crimes. Whatever Fitzgerald learned about unindicted figures (as Fitzgerald himself made clear in his press conference about the Libby indictment) is not relevant to this article on Libby. If for some reason, Libby does get a new trial or his case does go to appeal, then this article can be updated to reflect the later facts found out about those matters concerning Libby.
The discussion of the matter concerning the user is already in the other related articles, and this user's POV has not got consensus in any of them either. The user's assumption that there was but "one leaker" is false and contrary to the facts presented in all the related articles. I suggest that he read them more carefully. --NYScholar 07:50, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
[Note: Deleted heading re: staying "on topic" because it referred to a contributor (another user); the user's comments below need threading: headings in talk pages are not supposed to focus on contributors (users); use colons for threading (indenting). Talk pages are not for "discuss[ing] issues" relating to the subject of an article; they are only for discussing making improvements to an article. [If you want a "discussion forum" about any of the issues, go to discussion forums, not Wikipedia.] --NYScholar 06:41, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
[Note: Talk pages in Wikipedia are not discussion forums; see heading at top and related links in it: "This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Lewis Libby article. This is not a forum for general discussion about the article's subject." Thank you. --NYScholar 06:54, 4 April 2007 (UTC)]
Please post comments here. Notmyrealname 02:38, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
Without rehashing the endless discussion on categories, I hope we can at least all agree to adhere to the most explicit parts of WP:BLP regarding categories. For instance: "Category names do not carry disclaimers or modifiers, so the case for the category must be made clear in the article text. The article must state the facts that result in the use of the category tag and these facts must be sourced." As it currently reads, there is no case made for the use of the Jewish American Lawyer category. Notmyrealname 16:11, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
This [inserting category of "Jewish American lawyer" and the content supporting it] is precisely the documented content that is in dispute. (See Wikipedia:RFC.) Users have been continually deleting from the article any reference to discussion of Lewis Libby's "Jewishness" (his being Jewish) by reliable sources reprinting and drawing the information from another reliable source (Kampeas). After making these deletions, then they argue that there is "no case made for the use of the Jewish American category." (A catch-22. [See Catch-22#Concept; cf. No-win situation and Circular logic, aka Begging the question.]) A reliable source for the content, the article by Kampeas, and its reprinting in The Jerusalem Post are, however, still listed in "References" (part of the current content of the article), despite earlier attempts by those users to delete that source. Until and unless the information is restored to the body for the article (after the dispute is resolved), these users have deleted the basis for the category there, but not in its source(s); the NNDB article (listing Lewis Libby as "Jewish" and citing his temple membership in the note) is still listed as well in external links.--NYScholar 18:02, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
I added appropriately-named subsections to the References (Bibliography), moving some items to the more-appropriately-named subsections. There were a number of references for other reading/additional sources listed when the section was called "Bibliography" that are not cited in the body of the article; they are in the appropriate subsections now under the more general common meaning of a heading in Wikipedia articles called "References." The Notes section contains the "full citations," as required in WP:BLP and Wikipedia:Guidelines for controversial articles. (I did not delete or add any sources that were not already listed in the article prior to the protection notice being added to it.) [updated. --NYScholar 06:15, 5 April 2007 (UTC)]
General response to the above section: Clearly, by making these continual deletions and reversions, Jayjg (a "Wikipedia administrator") and a couple of other users are "imposing [their] POV", as pointed out above repeatedly above. In doing so, they willfully ignore objections to their changes by others on this talkpage based on
WP:BLP#Public figures and
WP:AGF. As a result of their own biases (POV), they continually delete sources that have been consulted and annotated properly for this Wikipedia article, and that do satisfy
Wikipedia:Citing sources. They are not following basic Wikipedia guidelines and policies in
Wikipedia:Neutral point of view,
WP:POV, and
Wikipedia:Guidelines for controversial articles. See this current talk page, archived talk pages, disputed editing content notices in the archives of the
WP:BLPN. This dispute has not been resolved yet by truly neutral administrators. Those making the deletions are "interested parties" to this dispute (demonstrating conflicts of interest). They should not touting administrative authority to revert changes to this article to match their own POV. See
Wikipedia:Administrators and
WP:ANOT (with incorporated links) to understand that; administrators are all still just like any other Wikipedia user: they must still abide by
Wikipedia:Neutral point of view and other Wikipedia policies, including all those that I just linked and have linked before. They just ignore such guidelines and policies. The claim that a reliable source (Kampeas) is "junk" (see recent editing summaries and earlier ones with POV pejorative value judgments) clearly are judgments reflecting their own biases and POV (not that of published reliable sources). There is no support for such POV judgments in any published reliable source: see
WP:NOR. Many other published reliable sources reprint the article by
Ron Kampeas. The information provided in it is repeated in the Tulsa Jewish Review cited in the NNDB biography, which, otherwise has some questionable details about Libby, but which I have annotated specifically and properly purposefully to make its possible unreliability clear. (Such annotations are recommended in Wikipedia, when giving external links to sources.) Because NNDB articles are frequently cited in references and external links presented in Wikipedia articles (as this NNDB article was for a long time, without any qualifications), the annotation is an important qualification of such a source. By continually deleting information and sources that many other Wikipedia readers do find relevant and useful, these users are obstructing (not following) Wikipedia policies and guidelines, making up their own rules to suit their POV and then referring, misleadingly, to
WP:BLP.
WP:BLP includes
WP:BLP#Public figures, which pertains to a
public figure like Lewis Libby; that statement of policy relates to
WP:POV and
Wikipedia:Neutral point of view and
Wikipedia:Guidelines for controversial articles, all also linked via talkpage headings above. It requires following
WP:Cite/
Wikipedia:Attribution/
WP:Reliable sources, which have been followed via the annotations and the heading "Works consulted". The deleted sources and the relevant subheading need restoring. --NYScholar 19:59, 8 April 2007 (UTC) [updated: I have made those changes, referring to this talk page in the editing history. --NYScholar 20:14, 8 April 2007 (UTC)]
Welcome to Wikipedia. Although everyone is welcome to contribute constructively to the encyclopedia, we would like to remind you not to
attack other editors. Please comment on the contributions and not the contributors. Take a look at the
welcome page to learn more about contributing to this encyclopedia. Thank you.
I had an exceptionally informative external link bumped for the usual "explanations" and was wondering if it could be re-inserted in the following form:
Presidential Pardon Research Data archive sponsored by the popular Jurist "Presidential Pardons Page (University of Pittsburgh), as cited in The Hill. "White House: Since Late 20th Century Presidents Not as Forgiving as Predecessors" (3/9/07) and Congressional Quarterly. "Presidential Pardons Chart" Vol. 59, No.8 (2/24/01).
If I need to pile on more secondary sources, please let me know.
best, PSRuckman 04:59, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
As the protecting admin, I just thought this should better be mediated quicker rather then staying on full protection for a longer — if not an indefinite — period. It appears that the most of the issue here is whether to include that Libby is Jewish in the article or not. It'll be fair to say I'm only partly with Jayjg on this — on one hand, I'm definitely against including discussion of such in the article's context. This article should only focus on Libby's profession, achievements, and press related to it. Discussion on so-called trivia such as religion and ethnicity should generally be avoided unless it has been very significant throughout his career. We should also keep in mind that WP:BLP prohibits the addition of biased content that might promote unnecessary point of view towards its subject, which can be easily cased with this discussion. On the other hand, I'm not sure why we shouldn't include Category:Jewish American lawyers here. That page has about 70 other articles, and it doesn't look like any of them are controversial. Solely grouping this biography among other biographies with the same ethnicity would be literally harmless. Hopefully consensus will be made to unprotect this soon. Michaelas10 Respect my authoritah 17:40, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
Libby was also actively involved in the Bush administration's efforts to negotiate the Israeli-Palestinian "road map" for peace; for example, he participated in a series of "meetings... [with] Jewish leaders" in early December 2002 and "an unusual meeting" with two aides of then-Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon in mid-April 2003, culminating in the Red Sea Summit, held in Aqaba, Jordan, on June 4, 2004. [3] [4]
Other sources consulted
- "Jewish Republican Heads Libby Defense Fund". Jewish Standard ( Teaneck, New Jersey) 22 February 2006, World News. Accessed 6 March 2007.
- Kampeas, Ron. "Libby Jewish? Some Wonder How Neo-con's Faith Impacts Leak Scandal". Jewish Telegraphic Agency (JTA) ("The Global News Service of the Jewish People") 2 November 2005. Accessed 17 March 2007. Rpt. in Ron Kampeas, "Did Libby's Jewishness Impact the CIA Leak Scandal?" Jerusalem Post, Jewish Telegraphic Agency (JTA), 6 November 2005. Updated 7 November 2005. Accessed 26 March 2007. Cf. "Lewis Libby," Notable Names Database, as listed below.
- Lewis Libby at nndb.com. Accessed 5 April 2007. [Some details about Libby listed here may be of questionable reliability. N.B.: Note 1: "See Tulsa Jewish Review, Volume 76, Number 10 [Dec. 2005]," repeats information from the Jewish Telegraphic Agency article by Kampeas, as listed above.]
--NYScholar 07:01, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
I have never seen a "sources consulted" section on a biography page. Is it part of a standard template? It seems that this would be a poor way to insert contentious material. I hope we can also agree on another point. the NNDB is not a WP:RS. Inserting an unreliable source, even with a caveat is not acceptable according to WP:RS. Another point: can we stop listing reprints of a wire story? This is unnecessary and does not show relevance. Showing relevance would be to show other original stories that cite the wire story, not that reprint it in full or in part. Also, hiring a Jewish lawyer does not show "involvement with the Jewish community," nor does meeting with Jewish leaders, in a meeting with several other non-Jewish policymakers, signify anything. Should we just start listing whether policymakers are either Jewish or not Jewish if they deal with Israel? Finally, please refrain from name calling (e.g. "POV editors"). It is really not helpful. Notmyrealname 17:50, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
Hard facts are really rare. What we most commonly encounter are opinions from people (POVs). Inherently, because of this, most articles on Wikipedia are full of POVs. An article which clearly, accurately, and fairly describes all the major points of view will, by definition, be in accordance with Wikipedia's official "Neutral Point of View" policy.
Each POV should be clearly labeled and described, so readers know:
Who advocates the point of view
What their arguments are (supporting evidence, reasoning, etc.)
Category tags regarding religious beliefs and sexual preference should not be used unless two criteria are met:
The subject publicly self-identifies with the belief or preference in question
The subject's beliefs or sexual preferences are relevant to the subject's notable activities or public life....
"You cannot stop everyone in the world from editing "your" stuff, once you have posted it to Wikipedia. As each edit page clearly states:
If you don't want your material to be edited mercilessly or redistributed by others, do not submit it." Notmyrealname 16:41, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Before the article was protected, someone added "Senate Majority leader Harry Reid and many other politicians have called on Bush to announce that he will definitely not pardon Libby." before the note citation for the previous sentence but did not provide a source citation for the additional sentence. That is extremely misleading. The sentence needs a "full [source] citation" that can be verified by other Wikipedia users. See the template at top and Wikipedia:Citations, Wikipedia:Verifiability as well as WP:BLP, calling for "full citations" for information added to "controversial articles": Wikipedia:Guidelines for controversial articles. [I know that the sentence['s reference to Reid's being against the pardon] is accurate; but it still needs a full citation. Also, the note that it comes before is meant to follow the previous sentence. The new sentence needs to be added after the already-existing note citation (reference), followed by a new source citation documenting that new sentence.] --NYScholar 06:54, 28 March 2007 (UTC) [updated. See my comment directly below regarding the vague and equally-undocumented ref. to "many other politicians." --NYScholar 10:10, 31 March 2007 (UTC)]
Calls for Libby to be pardoned by President George W. Bush appeared in some newspapers; some of them are posted online by the Libby Legal Defense Trust. [1] U.S. Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid issued a press release about the verdict, urging President Bush to pledge not to pardon Libby, and other Democratic politicians followed suit. [2]
[see Editing mode for the full citations; they would show up w/ all the previous citations if I add a "Notes" section directly below; to avoid repeating earlier notes too, I'm not adding a "Notes" section below.] --NYScholar 07:14, 5 April 2007 (UTC); updated --NYScholar 03:49, 6 April 2007 (UTC)]
{{ editprotected}}
The article on Libby as it stands too closely conforms to partisan reporting in the media. Wiki should follow NPV. The specific issue is that the article suggests that Libby was accused or took part in a crime of "the alleged unauthorized disclosure of a CIA employee's identity", and that the crime was not prosecuted because Libby withheld information. Clearly, this is not true. Prosecutor Fitzgerald clearly knew the identity of the person who did disclose Valerie Plamm's identity and Fitzgerald, prior to the multiple instances in which Libby was questioned under threat of perjury. Secondly, while Valerie Plamm did work at the CIA, she was not a covert agent of the sort whose identity was protected by law, nor was the fact that she worked at the CIA a secret. Clearly, Libby was accused of crimes because his recollections changed during the course of the process and a jury concluded that constituted a crime. Clearly, the conviction is fact and newsworthy. However, at the same time the underlying facts related to Fitzgerald's investigation are just as newsworthy. I'm not suggesting that "Fitzgerald's investigation and prosecution appears to be politically motivated" needs to in the article. I am saying that Fitzgerald's knowledge of the identity of the "leaker" prior to his pursuit of Libby is a relevant fact that needs to be disclosed, and that the "leaking" of Valerie's Plamm's name was not, and would not have been a crime. Can an administrator "editprotected" these two points or get a discussion going? -- Knowsetfree 17:57, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
underlying article is editprotected already, and I just want the issue discussed. Thanks. Knowsetfree 16:58, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
Above user Knowsetfree is not giving an accurate account. The article is not "too close to partisan reporting in the media" and does not lack neutral point of view. If the facts are similar to the facts presented in the media, it is because they are the same facts. The one sentence that seems to pertain to what Knowsetfree may be referring to (the user does not make clear what sentence or sentences s/he is referring to), is actually a citation from Fitzgerald's direct interview remarks after the conviction that relates to his pre-conviction, indictment press conference remarks (quoted directly in the notes to this article). [The citation simply documents what Fitzgerald said--his saying it is the fact it documents.] Fitzgerald revealed both in his five-count indictment of Libby and in his post-conviction comments on Libby's obstruction of justice, false statements, and perjury convictions that there may have and probably were more than one person who was an official in the Bush administration who revealed Valerie E. Wilson's classified CIA status (not merely Armitage) and that Libby's lies obstructed the investigation into who all of these people were; Fitzgerald would not name them, because they were not charged in any indictment; only Libby was. F. could not discuss anyone not so charged (not the subject of the grand-jury indictment, he said). The current version of the article makes clear that Libby kept the grand jury investigation into the CIA leak from being able to gather all the facts (whatever they were). This Wikipedia article is clear about that. I do not think that this article requires the revision that that user claims that it does. Its sources of facts stated are cited (except for the sentence added re: democratic politicians and call for no pardon: see #Unsourced statement on that).
Users need to consult the talk page on the article (including the archives) where discussion of these matters have already occurred. Users also need to read the sources cited in the notes in the cross-linked article on the Plame affair, which quotes directly Fitzgerald's press conference remarks and his later remarks, not merely so-called "partisan" media accounts of them. The pertinent primary sources are noted, quoted, and/or listed in the full citations if one needs to verify what they say in this article and various related cross-linked ones. For example, the civil suit maintains charges based on Fitzgerald's previous indictment charges against Libby, which include others in the Bush administration about which the grand jury investigation indictment of Libby did not focus--Armitage, Rove, and Cheney--all of whom it appears that Fitzgerald is not charging with any federal crimes. A civil suit differs from a criminal suit; but the same facts found in the criminal trial would seem to apply to some of the allegations in the civil trial. Libby's perjury before the grand jury and his false statements to federal investigators, and the resulting obstruction of justice ensuing from them are the federal crimes of which he was convicted, and those convictions have become a further basis for the claims of the plaintiffs in the civil suit pertaining to Libby and three other members or former members of the Bush administration: Cheney, Rove, and Armitage. When the civil suit goes to court and is resolved, one can report further facts about that case and that resolution, both of which also involve Libby as well as the others.
It appears to me that the user making the comment above is carrying over arguments already discussed in articles like the Plame affair and trying to bring them back into this article on Libby. It is not appropriate to push some POV on the Plame affair controversy in this article on Libby. That is not within the guidelines of Wikipedia:Neutral point of view. That is the user's own POV, not neutral point of view. Moreover, the user's statement about what is "clearly" the case is not supported by the actual jury verdict; this user was not a member of the jury and there is no place here for his POV: "Clearly, Libby was accused of crimes because his recollections changed during the course of the process and a jury concluded that constituted a crime." The jury convicted Libby on the basis of their not believing his account that "his recollections changed...." yet this user says the opposite; that is the user's POV not fact; it is one of the very basic points disputed by the jury as not at all being what "clearly" happened, in their judgment, despite Libby's defense. The defense lost that argument, yet the user persists in making it here. That is "clearly" not "neutral point of view."
By even implying that "Fitzgerald's investigation was politically motivated" (which is not at all a fact with any support from reliable verifiable sources), the user injects his own POV in this backhanded manner and reveals what his POV is (the user just had to get that in while in the midst of denying that he was trying to do that). Very misleading.
In addition, Fitzgerald's own indictment press conference made it clear that his "Fitzgerald's knowledge of the identity of the various leakers prior to his pursuit of Libby" (note the once-again POV language here: "his pursuit of Libby") is entirely irrelevant, since Libby was being indicted for his own behavior in the grand jury investigation and related FBI investigation. Re: the user's own POV statement: "Prosecutor Fitzgerald clearly knew the identity of the person who did disclose Valerie Plamm's [sic] identity...."; that statement reveals that this user is not knowledgable about this subject of the Plame affair, since there were clearly many people who "did disclose Valerie [Plame's] identity" and not just one person. [I suppose the user refers to Armitage; Armitage was simply the person who disclosed it first to Robert Novak, but he was not only not the only one who disclosed it, but he was one of many, including Libby. See the Plame affair.) Libby's criminal trial did not concern that disclosure as a criminal act; the trial (on the five-count indictment) was about the criminally false and perjurious statements that Libby himself made in the grand jury and FBI investigations related to the leaking of Valerie E. Wilson's classified CIA identity as a covert agent (we know now, given recent House hearing). The trial concerned his indictment counts, not anything or anyone else. (The defense raising the issue of his memory was just that: a defense against those charges; the defense failed on four of the five counts.) See the updates to the articles on all the various other parties linked in Plame Affair article for more information about the other issues. --NYScholar 08:43, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
If Libby had not made false statements, perjured himself, and obstructed justice, he would not have been indicted and convicted for those crimes. Whatever Fitzgerald learned about unindicted figures (as Fitzgerald himself made clear in his press conference about the Libby indictment) is not relevant to this article on Libby. If for some reason, Libby does get a new trial or his case does go to appeal, then this article can be updated to reflect the later facts found out about those matters concerning Libby.
The discussion of the matter concerning the user is already in the other related articles, and this user's POV has not got consensus in any of them either. The user's assumption that there was but "one leaker" is false and contrary to the facts presented in all the related articles. I suggest that he read them more carefully. --NYScholar 07:50, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
[Note: Deleted heading re: staying "on topic" because it referred to a contributor (another user); the user's comments below need threading: headings in talk pages are not supposed to focus on contributors (users); use colons for threading (indenting). Talk pages are not for "discuss[ing] issues" relating to the subject of an article; they are only for discussing making improvements to an article. [If you want a "discussion forum" about any of the issues, go to discussion forums, not Wikipedia.] --NYScholar 06:41, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
[Note: Talk pages in Wikipedia are not discussion forums; see heading at top and related links in it: "This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Lewis Libby article. This is not a forum for general discussion about the article's subject." Thank you. --NYScholar 06:54, 4 April 2007 (UTC)]
Please post comments here. Notmyrealname 02:38, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
Without rehashing the endless discussion on categories, I hope we can at least all agree to adhere to the most explicit parts of WP:BLP regarding categories. For instance: "Category names do not carry disclaimers or modifiers, so the case for the category must be made clear in the article text. The article must state the facts that result in the use of the category tag and these facts must be sourced." As it currently reads, there is no case made for the use of the Jewish American Lawyer category. Notmyrealname 16:11, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
This [inserting category of "Jewish American lawyer" and the content supporting it] is precisely the documented content that is in dispute. (See Wikipedia:RFC.) Users have been continually deleting from the article any reference to discussion of Lewis Libby's "Jewishness" (his being Jewish) by reliable sources reprinting and drawing the information from another reliable source (Kampeas). After making these deletions, then they argue that there is "no case made for the use of the Jewish American category." (A catch-22. [See Catch-22#Concept; cf. No-win situation and Circular logic, aka Begging the question.]) A reliable source for the content, the article by Kampeas, and its reprinting in The Jerusalem Post are, however, still listed in "References" (part of the current content of the article), despite earlier attempts by those users to delete that source. Until and unless the information is restored to the body for the article (after the dispute is resolved), these users have deleted the basis for the category there, but not in its source(s); the NNDB article (listing Lewis Libby as "Jewish" and citing his temple membership in the note) is still listed as well in external links.--NYScholar 18:02, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
I added appropriately-named subsections to the References (Bibliography), moving some items to the more-appropriately-named subsections. There were a number of references for other reading/additional sources listed when the section was called "Bibliography" that are not cited in the body of the article; they are in the appropriate subsections now under the more general common meaning of a heading in Wikipedia articles called "References." The Notes section contains the "full citations," as required in WP:BLP and Wikipedia:Guidelines for controversial articles. (I did not delete or add any sources that were not already listed in the article prior to the protection notice being added to it.) [updated. --NYScholar 06:15, 5 April 2007 (UTC)]
General response to the above section: Clearly, by making these continual deletions and reversions, Jayjg (a "Wikipedia administrator") and a couple of other users are "imposing [their] POV", as pointed out above repeatedly above. In doing so, they willfully ignore objections to their changes by others on this talkpage based on
WP:BLP#Public figures and
WP:AGF. As a result of their own biases (POV), they continually delete sources that have been consulted and annotated properly for this Wikipedia article, and that do satisfy
Wikipedia:Citing sources. They are not following basic Wikipedia guidelines and policies in
Wikipedia:Neutral point of view,
WP:POV, and
Wikipedia:Guidelines for controversial articles. See this current talk page, archived talk pages, disputed editing content notices in the archives of the
WP:BLPN. This dispute has not been resolved yet by truly neutral administrators. Those making the deletions are "interested parties" to this dispute (demonstrating conflicts of interest). They should not touting administrative authority to revert changes to this article to match their own POV. See
Wikipedia:Administrators and
WP:ANOT (with incorporated links) to understand that; administrators are all still just like any other Wikipedia user: they must still abide by
Wikipedia:Neutral point of view and other Wikipedia policies, including all those that I just linked and have linked before. They just ignore such guidelines and policies. The claim that a reliable source (Kampeas) is "junk" (see recent editing summaries and earlier ones with POV pejorative value judgments) clearly are judgments reflecting their own biases and POV (not that of published reliable sources). There is no support for such POV judgments in any published reliable source: see
WP:NOR. Many other published reliable sources reprint the article by
Ron Kampeas. The information provided in it is repeated in the Tulsa Jewish Review cited in the NNDB biography, which, otherwise has some questionable details about Libby, but which I have annotated specifically and properly purposefully to make its possible unreliability clear. (Such annotations are recommended in Wikipedia, when giving external links to sources.) Because NNDB articles are frequently cited in references and external links presented in Wikipedia articles (as this NNDB article was for a long time, without any qualifications), the annotation is an important qualification of such a source. By continually deleting information and sources that many other Wikipedia readers do find relevant and useful, these users are obstructing (not following) Wikipedia policies and guidelines, making up their own rules to suit their POV and then referring, misleadingly, to
WP:BLP.
WP:BLP includes
WP:BLP#Public figures, which pertains to a
public figure like Lewis Libby; that statement of policy relates to
WP:POV and
Wikipedia:Neutral point of view and
Wikipedia:Guidelines for controversial articles, all also linked via talkpage headings above. It requires following
WP:Cite/
Wikipedia:Attribution/
WP:Reliable sources, which have been followed via the annotations and the heading "Works consulted". The deleted sources and the relevant subheading need restoring. --NYScholar 19:59, 8 April 2007 (UTC) [updated: I have made those changes, referring to this talk page in the editing history. --NYScholar 20:14, 8 April 2007 (UTC)]
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I had an exceptionally informative external link bumped for the usual "explanations" and was wondering if it could be re-inserted in the following form:
Presidential Pardon Research Data archive sponsored by the popular Jurist "Presidential Pardons Page (University of Pittsburgh), as cited in The Hill. "White House: Since Late 20th Century Presidents Not as Forgiving as Predecessors" (3/9/07) and Congressional Quarterly. "Presidential Pardons Chart" Vol. 59, No.8 (2/24/01).
If I need to pile on more secondary sources, please let me know.
best, PSRuckman 04:59, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
As the protecting admin, I just thought this should better be mediated quicker rather then staying on full protection for a longer — if not an indefinite — period. It appears that the most of the issue here is whether to include that Libby is Jewish in the article or not. It'll be fair to say I'm only partly with Jayjg on this — on one hand, I'm definitely against including discussion of such in the article's context. This article should only focus on Libby's profession, achievements, and press related to it. Discussion on so-called trivia such as religion and ethnicity should generally be avoided unless it has been very significant throughout his career. We should also keep in mind that WP:BLP prohibits the addition of biased content that might promote unnecessary point of view towards its subject, which can be easily cased with this discussion. On the other hand, I'm not sure why we shouldn't include Category:Jewish American lawyers here. That page has about 70 other articles, and it doesn't look like any of them are controversial. Solely grouping this biography among other biographies with the same ethnicity would be literally harmless. Hopefully consensus will be made to unprotect this soon. Michaelas10 Respect my authoritah 17:40, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
Libby was also actively involved in the Bush administration's efforts to negotiate the Israeli-Palestinian "road map" for peace; for example, he participated in a series of "meetings... [with] Jewish leaders" in early December 2002 and "an unusual meeting" with two aides of then-Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon in mid-April 2003, culminating in the Red Sea Summit, held in Aqaba, Jordan, on June 4, 2004. [3] [4]
Other sources consulted
- "Jewish Republican Heads Libby Defense Fund". Jewish Standard ( Teaneck, New Jersey) 22 February 2006, World News. Accessed 6 March 2007.
- Kampeas, Ron. "Libby Jewish? Some Wonder How Neo-con's Faith Impacts Leak Scandal". Jewish Telegraphic Agency (JTA) ("The Global News Service of the Jewish People") 2 November 2005. Accessed 17 March 2007. Rpt. in Ron Kampeas, "Did Libby's Jewishness Impact the CIA Leak Scandal?" Jerusalem Post, Jewish Telegraphic Agency (JTA), 6 November 2005. Updated 7 November 2005. Accessed 26 March 2007. Cf. "Lewis Libby," Notable Names Database, as listed below.
- Lewis Libby at nndb.com. Accessed 5 April 2007. [Some details about Libby listed here may be of questionable reliability. N.B.: Note 1: "See Tulsa Jewish Review, Volume 76, Number 10 [Dec. 2005]," repeats information from the Jewish Telegraphic Agency article by Kampeas, as listed above.]
--NYScholar 07:01, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
I have never seen a "sources consulted" section on a biography page. Is it part of a standard template? It seems that this would be a poor way to insert contentious material. I hope we can also agree on another point. the NNDB is not a WP:RS. Inserting an unreliable source, even with a caveat is not acceptable according to WP:RS. Another point: can we stop listing reprints of a wire story? This is unnecessary and does not show relevance. Showing relevance would be to show other original stories that cite the wire story, not that reprint it in full or in part. Also, hiring a Jewish lawyer does not show "involvement with the Jewish community," nor does meeting with Jewish leaders, in a meeting with several other non-Jewish policymakers, signify anything. Should we just start listing whether policymakers are either Jewish or not Jewish if they deal with Israel? Finally, please refrain from name calling (e.g. "POV editors"). It is really not helpful. Notmyrealname 17:50, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
Hard facts are really rare. What we most commonly encounter are opinions from people (POVs). Inherently, because of this, most articles on Wikipedia are full of POVs. An article which clearly, accurately, and fairly describes all the major points of view will, by definition, be in accordance with Wikipedia's official "Neutral Point of View" policy.
Each POV should be clearly labeled and described, so readers know:
Who advocates the point of view
What their arguments are (supporting evidence, reasoning, etc.)
Category tags regarding religious beliefs and sexual preference should not be used unless two criteria are met:
The subject publicly self-identifies with the belief or preference in question
The subject's beliefs or sexual preferences are relevant to the subject's notable activities or public life....
"You cannot stop everyone in the world from editing "your" stuff, once you have posted it to Wikipedia. As each edit page clearly states:
If you don't want your material to be edited mercilessly or redistributed by others, do not submit it." Notmyrealname 16:41, 18 April 2007 (UTC)