This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Leonard Sax article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||
|
Prevous post violated NPOV. 35.10.49.111 19:30, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
I have deleted the following text from the "Criticisms" section on NPOV grounds: "However, Professor Liberman's blog itself has many inaccuracies and is largely out-of-date. Most of his criticism regarding hearing differences, for example, is devoted to comments which Dr. Sax posted on a web page in 2005 regarding sex differences in brainstem processing of auditory stimuli. More recent updates of that page [1] have completely eliminated the discussion of the auditory brainstem response which bothered Liberman. Additional information and sources have been added to Dr. Sax's site as well. Nevertheless Professor Liberman's blog has not been updated: it continues to attack statements made on a web page which no longer exists." — User:TheNewAuk 20:04, 17 Sept. 2007 UTC-8 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.41.124.120 ( talk) 03:05, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
9 July 2008: John Riemann Soong has re-posted his previous claims, without explanation. Mr. Soong: please read the Wikipedia policies on biographies of living persons, available at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:BLP.
In two previous posts, "John Riemann Soong" states that "it is a fact that linguists have rebuffed [Dr. Sax's] use of linguistic data". This statement apparently is a reference to Mark Liberman's campaign against Dr. Sax, since Mr. Liberman is a linguist. In fact, none of Mr. Liberman's posts address anything Dr. Sax has said about language per se. Mr. Liberman has attacked Dr. Sax's position on the significance of sex differences in retinal thickness; sex differences in cochlear acuity; and sex differences in emotional development (which Dr. Sax based on the work of Dr. Deborah Yurgelun-Todd).
The same individual (John Riemann Soong) added a post listing Dr. Sax as a "pseudoscientist" - again without any supporting evidence. Dr. Sax has published original research in journals such as the Annals of Family Medicine, in Behavioral Neuroscience (two papers), in Journal of the American College of Nutrition, etc. -- all of which are peer-reviewed scholarly journals. Wikipedia is for established fact only, not for editorials. The fact that Dr. Sax has published multiple scholarly articles in peer-reviewed scholarly journals means that Dr. Sax cannot be considered a pseudoscientist. If John Riemann Soong objects to Dr. Sax's scholarly work, the proper forum for such debate might be a blog, or perhaps a scholarly article by John Riemann Soong. Wikipedia is not the appropriate forum in which to voice an original, controversial position. (NPOV violation)
A previous post by "John Riemann Soong" asserted, without any supporting citation, that Dr. Sax's "theories of sexual dimorphism in human language ability have been met with much opposition from linguists . . ." I know of no evidence to support the claim that Dr. Sax has "theories of sexual dimorphism in human language ability." The longest chapter in his first book Why Gender Matters (chapter 9) is devoted to variations within each sex: boys who are very articulate about their feelings, girls who would prefer to play football rather than play with Barbies. The person who wrote the previous post should substantiate their claim that Dr. Sax has "theories of sexual dimorphism in human language ability." Until such evidence is provided, that sentence should not be part of the main article.
—Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.211.193.244 ( talk • contribs) 2008-06-23 15:38:15
September 7 2008: J. R. Soong has re-posted his claim that Dr. Sax has made "assertions about sexual dimorphism in language ability." No attribution is provided. Mr. Soong: what "assertions" are you referring to? Please provide a reference.
J. R. Soong has also reposted his claim that Dr. Sax is a "pseudoscientist." In view of the fact that Dr. Sax has published scholarly articles in peer-reviewed journals, and Dr. Sax's work has been carefully reviewed in journals such as the Journal of the American Medical Association, J. R. Soong should provide some support for his claim, aside from Mark Liberman's blogs, that Dr. Sax is a pseudoscientist. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Isaiah loeb ( talk • contribs) 18:22, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
November 23 2008: DarwinPeacock, aka J. R. Soong, has reposted his previous claims, still failing to provide any attribution. He has deleted any mention of the review in the Journal of the American Medical Association, or Dr. Sax's August 2008 publication in the Washington Post. Instead, he asserts (without providing any evidence or support) that Dr. Sax has "theories of sexual dimorphism in language ability." Mr. Soong-Peacock: please read Wikipedia guidelines on NPOV. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.175.17.174 ( talk) 01:32, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
December 7 2008: To quote from Wikipedia policy: "This article must adhere to the policy on biographies of living persons. Controversial material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately. . ." Accordingly the post from J. R. Soong has been removed. He continues to assert that Dr. Sax has made claims regarding "sexual dimorphism in language ability," without ever providing any source for this assertion besides Dr. Liberman's blogs. Please provide some source from Dr. Sax's published books or articles, rather than exclusively from blogs attacking Dr. Sax! Fritzvonturin ( talk) 23:12, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
Liberman is the *founder* of LL, of which a dozen or so linguists are active members of. This is the same Language Log mind you, that has won critical acclaim from the Linguistic Society of America. Unlike what you seem to imply, LL does not exist for the sake of opposing Sax or fradulent communication myths-- in fact, it exists to educate the public without the dolor and formality of journal articles; LL is no more guilty (and is in fact if anything less guilty) of this than Sax is; the difference between LL and Sax's books is that of medium. In fact, if you didn't realise, Dr Liberman is considerably more well-published than Mr. Sax is -- that is also not counting the other members (such as Pullum -- you know, coauthor of Cambridge Grammar of the English Language) who are each prominent in their field.
That you Sax supporters do not consider sensory acuity to be part of psycholinguistics is bizarre, especially since Sax has used this evidence to make arguments about how somehow boys then have an inferior comprehension pathway to girls. And thus when the uses the concept of language to explain performance differences between the sexes in a fallacious way -- and it has been noted that the average differences between groups he cites are small compared to the average differences *within* groups -- the reacting criticism should be admissible. In the very least, it is notable. John Riemann Soong ( talk) 22:03, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
Mr. Soong continues to make assertions regarding Dr. Sax's work without providing any sources for those assertions. Mr. Soong: when you say that Dr. Sax cites "average differences between groups" -- what publication by Dr. Sax are you referring to? We are not debating whether Dr. Sax (who has both an MD, and a PhD in psychology, both from the University of Pennsylvania -- the same university where Liberman currently works) is more or less cited than Dr. Liberman. We are debating whether YOU, Mr. Soong, are accurate in your statements regarding Dr. Sax. PLEASE PROVIDE A SOURCE, ANY SOURCE, FOR YOUR STATEMENTS ABOUT DR. SAX other than Dr. Liberman's blog. A "source" should be something Sax actually wrote or said, not an allegation on Dr. Liberman's blog. Fritzvonturin ( talk) 02:25, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
No, it doesn't sound like an acceptable compromise. First of all, DarwinPeacock's assertion that Dr. Sax is a "junior researcher" misses the point. Dr. Sax is not, properly speaking, a researcher at all. He has never sought or held any academic post. He is a retired family doctor, best known as the author of two parenting books. Dr. Liberman is a full-time academic. The fact that Dr. Liberman has published more scholarly papers than Dr. Sax is not relevant to the question of Dr. Sax's status as an author of advice books for parents. It's like saying that Brett Favre is a lousy athlete because he's never competed in the Olympics. It's simply not the appropriate frame of reference.
DarwinPeacock is also mistaken in his assertion that Dr. Sax has published no peer-reviewed papers. Both of Dr. Sax's papers for Behavioral Neuroscience as well as his papers for Psychology of Men and Masculinity, Journal of the American College of Nutrition, Journal of Sex Research, Journal of Medical Biography, Annals of Family Medicine and The Female Patient, all were peer-reviewed. But again, that's not the point. We don't evaluate authors of advice books for parents on the basis of how many peer-reviewed articles they have published, any more than we evaluate Mark Liberman on the basis of how many popular books he has written.
The New York Times article cited by DarwinPeacock was an opinion piece attacking single-sex education (see http://www.singlesexschools.org/NYT.htm for support of this assertion). Because Dr. Sax supports single-sex education, the article attacked Dr. Sax, but was wrong on many factual points, including the color of Dr. Sax's hair (again see http://www.singlesexschools.org/NYT.htm for a list of the errors in this article).
Most substantively: J.R. Soong asserts that Dr. Sax has "theories of sexual dimorphism in language ability." That's a false statement. Dr. Sax has no such theories. And Soong has never provided any source to support his assertion. Fritzvonturin ( talk) 14:07, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
Fritzvonturin was banned a little over a week ago for violating WP:NPOV, and since then there has not been any edit conflict. So it looks to me like the POV dispute may be over. Thus, I am (optimistically?) removing the POV dispute label. DarwinPeacock ( talk) 06:41, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
Hello again. I would just like to say that, "[Elizabeth Weil] concluded that graduates of single-sex schools are less likely to understand American principles of "commonality, tolerance and what it means to be American." is almost complete hogwash. I appreciate that this article had some problems and has a history of struggle between editors. But whoever wrote that needs to go back and read what she wrote, "Given the myriad ways in which our schools are failing, it may be hard to remember that public schools were intended not only to instruct children in reading and math but also to teach them commonality, tolerance and what it means to be American." -
SusanLesch (
talk)
19:01, 11 February 2012 (UTC)
When was he born?-- Jsjsjs1111 ( talk) 14:47, 25 August 2012 (UTC)
The use of "criticism" and "praise" sections is disfavored stylistically; it's better to integrate the commentary into topics. Accordingly, I've set up subheads for his views on gender and his individual books, advocacy for single-sex education, etc., and moved all discussion into the relevant subsections. Nothing was deleted.
I noted that David Brooks is a conservative opinion columnist; since we would ordinarily look to neutral professional reviews, and he's a political columnist with no particular expertise in education or pediatrics or gender.
The "media" appearances section is a bit much and strikes me as somewhat promotional, but I haven't touched it -- it would be better to have these things woven into the article to support particular statements. Otherwise, it should be treated as a bibliography -- put in bullet points. But we don't generally do that sort of thing in most biographical articles, so it looks more promotional. I'll leave that to another time or editor. -- Lquilter ( talk) 16:25, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on Leonard Sax. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 23:43, 20 December 2017 (UTC)
Collapse suggested edit by indefinitely blocked user --- Calton | Talk 02:54, 1 July 2021 (UTC) |
---|
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Suggested edit ... New study suggests Adolf Hitler was a quarter Jewish https://www.jpost.com/diaspora/study-suggests-adolf-hitler-was-a-quarter-jewish-597966 https://www.leonardsax.com/aus-den-gemeinden-von-burgenland/ |
Should we include his study on Hitler here? 2600:100C:A205:743B:C06B:F5C6:17E7:986A ( talk) 03:14, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Leonard Sax article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||
|
Prevous post violated NPOV. 35.10.49.111 19:30, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
I have deleted the following text from the "Criticisms" section on NPOV grounds: "However, Professor Liberman's blog itself has many inaccuracies and is largely out-of-date. Most of his criticism regarding hearing differences, for example, is devoted to comments which Dr. Sax posted on a web page in 2005 regarding sex differences in brainstem processing of auditory stimuli. More recent updates of that page [1] have completely eliminated the discussion of the auditory brainstem response which bothered Liberman. Additional information and sources have been added to Dr. Sax's site as well. Nevertheless Professor Liberman's blog has not been updated: it continues to attack statements made on a web page which no longer exists." — User:TheNewAuk 20:04, 17 Sept. 2007 UTC-8 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.41.124.120 ( talk) 03:05, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
9 July 2008: John Riemann Soong has re-posted his previous claims, without explanation. Mr. Soong: please read the Wikipedia policies on biographies of living persons, available at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:BLP.
In two previous posts, "John Riemann Soong" states that "it is a fact that linguists have rebuffed [Dr. Sax's] use of linguistic data". This statement apparently is a reference to Mark Liberman's campaign against Dr. Sax, since Mr. Liberman is a linguist. In fact, none of Mr. Liberman's posts address anything Dr. Sax has said about language per se. Mr. Liberman has attacked Dr. Sax's position on the significance of sex differences in retinal thickness; sex differences in cochlear acuity; and sex differences in emotional development (which Dr. Sax based on the work of Dr. Deborah Yurgelun-Todd).
The same individual (John Riemann Soong) added a post listing Dr. Sax as a "pseudoscientist" - again without any supporting evidence. Dr. Sax has published original research in journals such as the Annals of Family Medicine, in Behavioral Neuroscience (two papers), in Journal of the American College of Nutrition, etc. -- all of which are peer-reviewed scholarly journals. Wikipedia is for established fact only, not for editorials. The fact that Dr. Sax has published multiple scholarly articles in peer-reviewed scholarly journals means that Dr. Sax cannot be considered a pseudoscientist. If John Riemann Soong objects to Dr. Sax's scholarly work, the proper forum for such debate might be a blog, or perhaps a scholarly article by John Riemann Soong. Wikipedia is not the appropriate forum in which to voice an original, controversial position. (NPOV violation)
A previous post by "John Riemann Soong" asserted, without any supporting citation, that Dr. Sax's "theories of sexual dimorphism in human language ability have been met with much opposition from linguists . . ." I know of no evidence to support the claim that Dr. Sax has "theories of sexual dimorphism in human language ability." The longest chapter in his first book Why Gender Matters (chapter 9) is devoted to variations within each sex: boys who are very articulate about their feelings, girls who would prefer to play football rather than play with Barbies. The person who wrote the previous post should substantiate their claim that Dr. Sax has "theories of sexual dimorphism in human language ability." Until such evidence is provided, that sentence should not be part of the main article.
—Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.211.193.244 ( talk • contribs) 2008-06-23 15:38:15
September 7 2008: J. R. Soong has re-posted his claim that Dr. Sax has made "assertions about sexual dimorphism in language ability." No attribution is provided. Mr. Soong: what "assertions" are you referring to? Please provide a reference.
J. R. Soong has also reposted his claim that Dr. Sax is a "pseudoscientist." In view of the fact that Dr. Sax has published scholarly articles in peer-reviewed journals, and Dr. Sax's work has been carefully reviewed in journals such as the Journal of the American Medical Association, J. R. Soong should provide some support for his claim, aside from Mark Liberman's blogs, that Dr. Sax is a pseudoscientist. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Isaiah loeb ( talk • contribs) 18:22, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
November 23 2008: DarwinPeacock, aka J. R. Soong, has reposted his previous claims, still failing to provide any attribution. He has deleted any mention of the review in the Journal of the American Medical Association, or Dr. Sax's August 2008 publication in the Washington Post. Instead, he asserts (without providing any evidence or support) that Dr. Sax has "theories of sexual dimorphism in language ability." Mr. Soong-Peacock: please read Wikipedia guidelines on NPOV. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.175.17.174 ( talk) 01:32, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
December 7 2008: To quote from Wikipedia policy: "This article must adhere to the policy on biographies of living persons. Controversial material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately. . ." Accordingly the post from J. R. Soong has been removed. He continues to assert that Dr. Sax has made claims regarding "sexual dimorphism in language ability," without ever providing any source for this assertion besides Dr. Liberman's blogs. Please provide some source from Dr. Sax's published books or articles, rather than exclusively from blogs attacking Dr. Sax! Fritzvonturin ( talk) 23:12, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
Liberman is the *founder* of LL, of which a dozen or so linguists are active members of. This is the same Language Log mind you, that has won critical acclaim from the Linguistic Society of America. Unlike what you seem to imply, LL does not exist for the sake of opposing Sax or fradulent communication myths-- in fact, it exists to educate the public without the dolor and formality of journal articles; LL is no more guilty (and is in fact if anything less guilty) of this than Sax is; the difference between LL and Sax's books is that of medium. In fact, if you didn't realise, Dr Liberman is considerably more well-published than Mr. Sax is -- that is also not counting the other members (such as Pullum -- you know, coauthor of Cambridge Grammar of the English Language) who are each prominent in their field.
That you Sax supporters do not consider sensory acuity to be part of psycholinguistics is bizarre, especially since Sax has used this evidence to make arguments about how somehow boys then have an inferior comprehension pathway to girls. And thus when the uses the concept of language to explain performance differences between the sexes in a fallacious way -- and it has been noted that the average differences between groups he cites are small compared to the average differences *within* groups -- the reacting criticism should be admissible. In the very least, it is notable. John Riemann Soong ( talk) 22:03, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
Mr. Soong continues to make assertions regarding Dr. Sax's work without providing any sources for those assertions. Mr. Soong: when you say that Dr. Sax cites "average differences between groups" -- what publication by Dr. Sax are you referring to? We are not debating whether Dr. Sax (who has both an MD, and a PhD in psychology, both from the University of Pennsylvania -- the same university where Liberman currently works) is more or less cited than Dr. Liberman. We are debating whether YOU, Mr. Soong, are accurate in your statements regarding Dr. Sax. PLEASE PROVIDE A SOURCE, ANY SOURCE, FOR YOUR STATEMENTS ABOUT DR. SAX other than Dr. Liberman's blog. A "source" should be something Sax actually wrote or said, not an allegation on Dr. Liberman's blog. Fritzvonturin ( talk) 02:25, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
No, it doesn't sound like an acceptable compromise. First of all, DarwinPeacock's assertion that Dr. Sax is a "junior researcher" misses the point. Dr. Sax is not, properly speaking, a researcher at all. He has never sought or held any academic post. He is a retired family doctor, best known as the author of two parenting books. Dr. Liberman is a full-time academic. The fact that Dr. Liberman has published more scholarly papers than Dr. Sax is not relevant to the question of Dr. Sax's status as an author of advice books for parents. It's like saying that Brett Favre is a lousy athlete because he's never competed in the Olympics. It's simply not the appropriate frame of reference.
DarwinPeacock is also mistaken in his assertion that Dr. Sax has published no peer-reviewed papers. Both of Dr. Sax's papers for Behavioral Neuroscience as well as his papers for Psychology of Men and Masculinity, Journal of the American College of Nutrition, Journal of Sex Research, Journal of Medical Biography, Annals of Family Medicine and The Female Patient, all were peer-reviewed. But again, that's not the point. We don't evaluate authors of advice books for parents on the basis of how many peer-reviewed articles they have published, any more than we evaluate Mark Liberman on the basis of how many popular books he has written.
The New York Times article cited by DarwinPeacock was an opinion piece attacking single-sex education (see http://www.singlesexschools.org/NYT.htm for support of this assertion). Because Dr. Sax supports single-sex education, the article attacked Dr. Sax, but was wrong on many factual points, including the color of Dr. Sax's hair (again see http://www.singlesexschools.org/NYT.htm for a list of the errors in this article).
Most substantively: J.R. Soong asserts that Dr. Sax has "theories of sexual dimorphism in language ability." That's a false statement. Dr. Sax has no such theories. And Soong has never provided any source to support his assertion. Fritzvonturin ( talk) 14:07, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
Fritzvonturin was banned a little over a week ago for violating WP:NPOV, and since then there has not been any edit conflict. So it looks to me like the POV dispute may be over. Thus, I am (optimistically?) removing the POV dispute label. DarwinPeacock ( talk) 06:41, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
Hello again. I would just like to say that, "[Elizabeth Weil] concluded that graduates of single-sex schools are less likely to understand American principles of "commonality, tolerance and what it means to be American." is almost complete hogwash. I appreciate that this article had some problems and has a history of struggle between editors. But whoever wrote that needs to go back and read what she wrote, "Given the myriad ways in which our schools are failing, it may be hard to remember that public schools were intended not only to instruct children in reading and math but also to teach them commonality, tolerance and what it means to be American." -
SusanLesch (
talk)
19:01, 11 February 2012 (UTC)
When was he born?-- Jsjsjs1111 ( talk) 14:47, 25 August 2012 (UTC)
The use of "criticism" and "praise" sections is disfavored stylistically; it's better to integrate the commentary into topics. Accordingly, I've set up subheads for his views on gender and his individual books, advocacy for single-sex education, etc., and moved all discussion into the relevant subsections. Nothing was deleted.
I noted that David Brooks is a conservative opinion columnist; since we would ordinarily look to neutral professional reviews, and he's a political columnist with no particular expertise in education or pediatrics or gender.
The "media" appearances section is a bit much and strikes me as somewhat promotional, but I haven't touched it -- it would be better to have these things woven into the article to support particular statements. Otherwise, it should be treated as a bibliography -- put in bullet points. But we don't generally do that sort of thing in most biographical articles, so it looks more promotional. I'll leave that to another time or editor. -- Lquilter ( talk) 16:25, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on Leonard Sax. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 23:43, 20 December 2017 (UTC)
Collapse suggested edit by indefinitely blocked user --- Calton | Talk 02:54, 1 July 2021 (UTC) |
---|
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Suggested edit ... New study suggests Adolf Hitler was a quarter Jewish https://www.jpost.com/diaspora/study-suggests-adolf-hitler-was-a-quarter-jewish-597966 https://www.leonardsax.com/aus-den-gemeinden-von-burgenland/ |
Should we include his study on Hitler here? 2600:100C:A205:743B:C06B:F5C6:17E7:986A ( talk) 03:14, 23 August 2023 (UTC)