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Reviewer: SilkTork ( talk · contribs) 19:08, 24 August 2015 (UTC)
Review before rewrite
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Tick boxGA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria
Comments on GA criteria
I want to ask you, SilkTork, about how to link to a Commons image when a Wikipedia image of the same name already exists, and how to properly format it with the proof of public domain status. For example, I uploaded a copy of the murder notes onto Commons and under the summary form I added links to the original source and proof that it was published before 1923. I don't know if this is proper, but I felt like it was worthy of being added and would make it easier for a formal image review once the article goes to FAC. Also, I'm not sure how to get the image linked to in the article to go to Commons and not the Wikipedia one. Perhaps the Wiki one should simply be deleted, but the note on that page said that sometimes authors prefer to have it in both places. Tonystewart14 ( talk) 05:37, 28 August 2015 (UTC)
From my background reading I picked up mentions of the speech he gave to the court during which he explained his absence from the office at the time Stover went there to get her pay, that he "unconsciously" went to the bathroom at that time. I'll go through my internet history to see where those mentions are. SilkTork ✔Tea time 11:44, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
I believe Tom spoiled it in the next comment after yours, but I do see how that could be seen as minimizing their views. I took out this phrase and made some other small changes, such as removing the words "in fact" before "guilty" as this could also have the same problem. There could probably be some more content added to this paragraph, but hopefully this will serve as a good foundation. I didn't expect the first version of my text to be seen as not being improvable, but my intention was just what happened above: to get the ball rolling and receive constructive feedback. Tonystewart14 ( talk) 02:26, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
General comments
While there is a potential for skewed focus in the article being called just Leo Frank, which is why I feel it appropriate to have a discussion on the name, and for views to be aired, I would like to think that the views aired and the rationales put forward would be in the best interests of the article and the reading public, and would be helpful for the ongoing development of the article. I think the views put forward so far, including those to keep it at Leo Frank, have been based on policy and good sense and have been well argued. SilkTork ✔Tea time 23:00, 30 August 2015 (UTC)
Here are some other comments I have:
On holdI was not aware of this case before doing this review, and I have found it fascinating. Because of the subject matter, this is an article that generates strong opinions, and in such cases in can be difficult to write a dispassionate, neutral and balanced account of what happened. I think that those who have been working on this article are to be commended that while there has been lively debate, it has been largely calm and respectful, and the article, while experiencing changes, has not fluctuated wildly. There is an attempt to be neutral and factual, while paying respect to different opinions; however, I don't think the article is quite there yet, and some more work is required to achieve suitable neutrality. The other stumbling block to listing is the lead section, which requires development in order to be an accurate summary of the complex article. Other aspects of concern are fairly minor - a little bit of tidying up of images, etc. I'm not sure how long it will take to achieve a suitably balanced article. Experience has shown it can take a long time as there needs to be a lot of analysis and discussion, and it's the sort of thing that is best done slowly and carefully, not while there's a GA review open. However, I will keep this review open for a while longer to see what happens, and also to engage in discussion on points I have raised. I am not adverse to keeping reviews open while progress is being made - indeed I would rather list an article than fail one - so if main contributors are calmly and collaboratively working together, and significant progress is being made on the article, I will keep the review open. SilkTork ✔Tea time 11:26, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
Thanks SilkTork for your additional input and patience. You do bring up some good questions about Conley in particular that are fundamental to the case and worth a mention, so we'll take that into consideration. As far as sub-articles, I'm not sure if there would be enough high-quality content to do so, but it's also worth considering, even if it's not implemented (as was the name change proposal). Tonystewart14 ( talk) 12:13, 9 September 2015 (UTC) There's been some promising changes to the article. I've not read through them all yet, but will do over the next few days and give some feedback. As I was running through the lead I was struck by this statement: "James "Jim" Conley, an admitted accomplice after the fact" - that's presented as a fact. Conley was convicted of being an accomplice, however we also have statements, particularly in the Criticism of the trial and the verdict section, that Conley was the murderer. We need to be careful throughout the article that statements are not being made that appear to be factual and authoritative yet have been disputed. I asked earlier about Conley's legal position, and it would be helpful to get that. If he had been charged for being an accomplice it would be acceptable to say "Conley, who had been charged as an accomplice after the fact". That way Wikipedia is not saying he was an accomplice, merely that he was charged with being an accomplice. There is a significant difference. SilkTork ✔Tea time 17:05, 15 September 2015 (UTC)
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GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria
*It appears my concerns regarding the images have been overlooked during the rewriting. I will resolve them now.
SilkTork
✔Tea time
08:35, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
*Focus. I have a memory of asking you guys to provide a bit of context for the trial, and I can see you've worked on that. My concern now is that the Social and economic conditions section goes into a little too much detail, and also perhaps a little off topic. I will see what I can do to help focus and trim that section.
SilkTork
✔Tea time
16:03, 8 October 2015 (UTC)
*Broad coverage. The article is much more detailed now, though as I plan to roll up my sleeves and do some content work, I think it's worth bringing in those who were arrested but not tried. Though by itself, I wouldn't fail the article for not including them.
SilkTork
✔Tea time
16:08, 8 October 2015 (UTC)
*The lead section still does not give an appropriate summary of the article. Some people will not have the time or inclination to read the whole article (which would take the average reader over an hour, which is beyond the average concentration span), so it is very important to provide the reader with a decent summary of the important facts.
SilkTork
✔Tea time
15:47, 8 October 2015 (UTC)
Concerns by IP
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This article should not receive GA status before the following issues, among others raised here are properly addressed and rectified in re GA criteria: 2. Is it factually accurate and verifiable? A. Has an appropriate reference section: No. References appearing in the article are heavily weighted toward sources which promote the idea that Frank was "wrongfully convicted", and which themselves have been repeatedly shown to fail the test of fact-checking and accuracy. B. Cites reliable sources, where necessary No. The inclusion of reliable sources, especially primary sources, which support Frank's conviction have been consistently attacked, branded "unreliable", and removed from the article by pro-Frank editors in order to promote the fringe idea that he was "wrongfully convicted". C. No original research No. At least one editor has involved himself in OR by personally contacting one or more author(s) of secondary source material in order to aquire advice and information to support or bolster the fringe POV that Frank was "innocent".
Fair representation without bias No. The article continues to be heavily biased in favor of Frank. The evidence, reasoning, and sources which support the official determination of Frank's guilt by every level of the judicial system is repeatedly and relentlessly removed, obscured, mischaracterized, or otherwise attacked throughout the article by pro-Frank editors lobbying for exclusive reliance upon pro-Frank sources who all employ a shameful obfuscation of relevant facts, as well as fabricated nonsense in order to push their common, and all too obvious agenda, which is to promote the idea of Frank's "innocence". Although a very cleverly worded article, it is full of weasel words, and still pushes an obvious pro-Frank POV. See [ THIS] discussion, and [ THIS] discussion as examples of the type of chicanery that has been present in this article for years. See also [ THIS] discussion, as well as this entry from the recent [ Aborted Review] as only 2 of many relevant examples of disruptive editing and ownership behavior by one of the most fervently pro-Frank editors of this article: Tom, you are not allowing any constructive edits. I think you are classic WP:OOA showing all the WP:OWNBEHAVIOR symptoms. The way the article currently looks is straight WP:POV due to your WP:DRNC, and I am not alone in this thinking. I took a break after your last attack. But as this article is basically being held hostage by you, I can only fail the GA nomination. Cheers! Meishern ( talk) 13:41, 21 August 2015 (UTC)
No edit wars, etc No. A false "consensus" has only ever been temporarily maintained as a result of the selective, and highly questionable reverting, harassment, or blocking of individual editors who attempt to include factual information and sources which tend to demonstrate the guilt of Frank, a most notable example of which appears [ HERE]. This article remains "stable" only when it is "protected" by those who share an interest in preserving it merely as a vehicle to exonerate Frank. No doubt a number of editors seeking a neutral POV have become reluctant to even participate in the building of this article because the concerted efforts of various pro-Frank editors and administrators to push a pro-Frank POV have evolved to the point of lodging accusations of sockpuppetry against editors who attempt to bring the article into a state of neutrality. Given the huge amount of properly resourced facts and evidence concerning this case that over time have been capriciously and unjustifiably removed from this article, a prime example of which may be found [ HERE], and [ HERE],has merely served to preserve this article as a POV whitewashing of Leo Frank. To ignore these issues renders any promotion to GA status as nothing less than ridiculous. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.134.98.223 ( talk) 18:54, 9 October 2015 (UTC)
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This is a complex and difficult subject, and all those involved in bringing the article so far, including those who have criticised the article at various stages, are to be commended for their input and their work. I have paid particular attention to concerns of bias, and have attempted in giving advice to editors, and in working through the article myself, to make it as balanced and neutral as possible. Though we must all be aware that bias can be quite subtle, and we are all human and will sway our views and sympathies one way or another. What I feel this article should not do is try to argue one way or another that Frank was guilty or innocent. It should reflect the important facts about the case, and the discussions and differences of views afterwards. That I feel the article does quite well. SilkTork ✔Tea time 14:48, 14 October 2015 (UTC)
GA toolbox |
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Reviewing |
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visual edit |
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Article talk (
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history) ·
Watch
Reviewer: SilkTork ( talk · contribs) 19:08, 24 August 2015 (UTC)
Review before rewrite
|
---|
Tick boxGA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria
Comments on GA criteria
I want to ask you, SilkTork, about how to link to a Commons image when a Wikipedia image of the same name already exists, and how to properly format it with the proof of public domain status. For example, I uploaded a copy of the murder notes onto Commons and under the summary form I added links to the original source and proof that it was published before 1923. I don't know if this is proper, but I felt like it was worthy of being added and would make it easier for a formal image review once the article goes to FAC. Also, I'm not sure how to get the image linked to in the article to go to Commons and not the Wikipedia one. Perhaps the Wiki one should simply be deleted, but the note on that page said that sometimes authors prefer to have it in both places. Tonystewart14 ( talk) 05:37, 28 August 2015 (UTC)
From my background reading I picked up mentions of the speech he gave to the court during which he explained his absence from the office at the time Stover went there to get her pay, that he "unconsciously" went to the bathroom at that time. I'll go through my internet history to see where those mentions are. SilkTork ✔Tea time 11:44, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
I believe Tom spoiled it in the next comment after yours, but I do see how that could be seen as minimizing their views. I took out this phrase and made some other small changes, such as removing the words "in fact" before "guilty" as this could also have the same problem. There could probably be some more content added to this paragraph, but hopefully this will serve as a good foundation. I didn't expect the first version of my text to be seen as not being improvable, but my intention was just what happened above: to get the ball rolling and receive constructive feedback. Tonystewart14 ( talk) 02:26, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
General comments
While there is a potential for skewed focus in the article being called just Leo Frank, which is why I feel it appropriate to have a discussion on the name, and for views to be aired, I would like to think that the views aired and the rationales put forward would be in the best interests of the article and the reading public, and would be helpful for the ongoing development of the article. I think the views put forward so far, including those to keep it at Leo Frank, have been based on policy and good sense and have been well argued. SilkTork ✔Tea time 23:00, 30 August 2015 (UTC)
Here are some other comments I have:
On holdI was not aware of this case before doing this review, and I have found it fascinating. Because of the subject matter, this is an article that generates strong opinions, and in such cases in can be difficult to write a dispassionate, neutral and balanced account of what happened. I think that those who have been working on this article are to be commended that while there has been lively debate, it has been largely calm and respectful, and the article, while experiencing changes, has not fluctuated wildly. There is an attempt to be neutral and factual, while paying respect to different opinions; however, I don't think the article is quite there yet, and some more work is required to achieve suitable neutrality. The other stumbling block to listing is the lead section, which requires development in order to be an accurate summary of the complex article. Other aspects of concern are fairly minor - a little bit of tidying up of images, etc. I'm not sure how long it will take to achieve a suitably balanced article. Experience has shown it can take a long time as there needs to be a lot of analysis and discussion, and it's the sort of thing that is best done slowly and carefully, not while there's a GA review open. However, I will keep this review open for a while longer to see what happens, and also to engage in discussion on points I have raised. I am not adverse to keeping reviews open while progress is being made - indeed I would rather list an article than fail one - so if main contributors are calmly and collaboratively working together, and significant progress is being made on the article, I will keep the review open. SilkTork ✔Tea time 11:26, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
Thanks SilkTork for your additional input and patience. You do bring up some good questions about Conley in particular that are fundamental to the case and worth a mention, so we'll take that into consideration. As far as sub-articles, I'm not sure if there would be enough high-quality content to do so, but it's also worth considering, even if it's not implemented (as was the name change proposal). Tonystewart14 ( talk) 12:13, 9 September 2015 (UTC) There's been some promising changes to the article. I've not read through them all yet, but will do over the next few days and give some feedback. As I was running through the lead I was struck by this statement: "James "Jim" Conley, an admitted accomplice after the fact" - that's presented as a fact. Conley was convicted of being an accomplice, however we also have statements, particularly in the Criticism of the trial and the verdict section, that Conley was the murderer. We need to be careful throughout the article that statements are not being made that appear to be factual and authoritative yet have been disputed. I asked earlier about Conley's legal position, and it would be helpful to get that. If he had been charged for being an accomplice it would be acceptable to say "Conley, who had been charged as an accomplice after the fact". That way Wikipedia is not saying he was an accomplice, merely that he was charged with being an accomplice. There is a significant difference. SilkTork ✔Tea time 17:05, 15 September 2015 (UTC)
|
GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria
*It appears my concerns regarding the images have been overlooked during the rewriting. I will resolve them now.
SilkTork
✔Tea time
08:35, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
*Focus. I have a memory of asking you guys to provide a bit of context for the trial, and I can see you've worked on that. My concern now is that the Social and economic conditions section goes into a little too much detail, and also perhaps a little off topic. I will see what I can do to help focus and trim that section.
SilkTork
✔Tea time
16:03, 8 October 2015 (UTC)
*Broad coverage. The article is much more detailed now, though as I plan to roll up my sleeves and do some content work, I think it's worth bringing in those who were arrested but not tried. Though by itself, I wouldn't fail the article for not including them.
SilkTork
✔Tea time
16:08, 8 October 2015 (UTC)
*The lead section still does not give an appropriate summary of the article. Some people will not have the time or inclination to read the whole article (which would take the average reader over an hour, which is beyond the average concentration span), so it is very important to provide the reader with a decent summary of the important facts.
SilkTork
✔Tea time
15:47, 8 October 2015 (UTC)
Concerns by IP
|
---|
This article should not receive GA status before the following issues, among others raised here are properly addressed and rectified in re GA criteria: 2. Is it factually accurate and verifiable? A. Has an appropriate reference section: No. References appearing in the article are heavily weighted toward sources which promote the idea that Frank was "wrongfully convicted", and which themselves have been repeatedly shown to fail the test of fact-checking and accuracy. B. Cites reliable sources, where necessary No. The inclusion of reliable sources, especially primary sources, which support Frank's conviction have been consistently attacked, branded "unreliable", and removed from the article by pro-Frank editors in order to promote the fringe idea that he was "wrongfully convicted". C. No original research No. At least one editor has involved himself in OR by personally contacting one or more author(s) of secondary source material in order to aquire advice and information to support or bolster the fringe POV that Frank was "innocent".
Fair representation without bias No. The article continues to be heavily biased in favor of Frank. The evidence, reasoning, and sources which support the official determination of Frank's guilt by every level of the judicial system is repeatedly and relentlessly removed, obscured, mischaracterized, or otherwise attacked throughout the article by pro-Frank editors lobbying for exclusive reliance upon pro-Frank sources who all employ a shameful obfuscation of relevant facts, as well as fabricated nonsense in order to push their common, and all too obvious agenda, which is to promote the idea of Frank's "innocence". Although a very cleverly worded article, it is full of weasel words, and still pushes an obvious pro-Frank POV. See [ THIS] discussion, and [ THIS] discussion as examples of the type of chicanery that has been present in this article for years. See also [ THIS] discussion, as well as this entry from the recent [ Aborted Review] as only 2 of many relevant examples of disruptive editing and ownership behavior by one of the most fervently pro-Frank editors of this article: Tom, you are not allowing any constructive edits. I think you are classic WP:OOA showing all the WP:OWNBEHAVIOR symptoms. The way the article currently looks is straight WP:POV due to your WP:DRNC, and I am not alone in this thinking. I took a break after your last attack. But as this article is basically being held hostage by you, I can only fail the GA nomination. Cheers! Meishern ( talk) 13:41, 21 August 2015 (UTC)
No edit wars, etc No. A false "consensus" has only ever been temporarily maintained as a result of the selective, and highly questionable reverting, harassment, or blocking of individual editors who attempt to include factual information and sources which tend to demonstrate the guilt of Frank, a most notable example of which appears [ HERE]. This article remains "stable" only when it is "protected" by those who share an interest in preserving it merely as a vehicle to exonerate Frank. No doubt a number of editors seeking a neutral POV have become reluctant to even participate in the building of this article because the concerted efforts of various pro-Frank editors and administrators to push a pro-Frank POV have evolved to the point of lodging accusations of sockpuppetry against editors who attempt to bring the article into a state of neutrality. Given the huge amount of properly resourced facts and evidence concerning this case that over time have been capriciously and unjustifiably removed from this article, a prime example of which may be found [ HERE], and [ HERE],has merely served to preserve this article as a POV whitewashing of Leo Frank. To ignore these issues renders any promotion to GA status as nothing less than ridiculous. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.134.98.223 ( talk) 18:54, 9 October 2015 (UTC)
|
This is a complex and difficult subject, and all those involved in bringing the article so far, including those who have criticised the article at various stages, are to be commended for their input and their work. I have paid particular attention to concerns of bias, and have attempted in giving advice to editors, and in working through the article myself, to make it as balanced and neutral as possible. Though we must all be aware that bias can be quite subtle, and we are all human and will sway our views and sympathies one way or another. What I feel this article should not do is try to argue one way or another that Frank was guilty or innocent. It should reflect the important facts about the case, and the discussions and differences of views afterwards. That I feel the article does quite well. SilkTork ✔Tea time 14:48, 14 October 2015 (UTC)