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Hi editors of Wikipedia. There is a reference to the Lensman series towards the end of Heinlein's "To Sail Beyond the Sunset". He claimed that Doc smith's Lensman participated in one of the Circle of Ouroboros's operations. Not sure if this is worthy of inclusion in the article or not (I haven't gotten to the Lensman series yet) but I figured I'd let you know. ~David.
1. Calling the Second Stage Lensmen's sense of perception "clairvoyance" is an accurate description. To quote Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary:
(a) the power or faculty of discerning objects not present to the senses. (b) the ability to perceive matters beyond the range of ordinary perception: PENETRATION.
So I hope that no one will *again* delete my edit clarifying that what Smith calls "perception" is a form of clairvoyance.
2. I could have sworn that I strengthened the references to the Children of the Lens having an incestuous marriage resulting in a new race of superhumans. Yet apparently someone reversed my edits, as the article currently reads "Some readers infer the possibility of an incestuous group-marriage..."
This is simply inadequate. There is a clear implication that in the future the Children of the Lens will mate to produce a race of super-humans-- not Homo Sapiens, but Homo Superior-- and it seems Smith would have stated it more directly if the censorship of the publishing field were not so strong at the time.
The Universes of E.E. Smith says, under the "sex" entry: "...it is implied that Christopher Kinnison in maturity would mate with all four of his sisters (COL 72, 114, etc.)
If there are "Doubting Thomases" out there, let me quote from the Lensman series itself. I'm quoting from the Old Earth Books facsimiles of the original hardbacks, not the error-ridden paperbacks from Pyramid and Berkeley.
...each of the Kinnison girls knew it would be a physical and psychological impossibility for her to become even mildly interested in a man not at least her father's equal. They each had dreamed of a man who would be her own equal, physically and mentally, but it had not yet occurred to any of them that one such man already existed.
--Children of the Lens, p. 72 (near end of Chapter 7)
The kids were special in another way, too, he [Kit] had noticed lately, without paying it any particular attention... They didn't feel like other girls. After dancing with one of them, other girls felt like robots made out of putty. Their flesh was different. It was firmer, finer, infinitely more responsive. Each individual cell seemed to be endowed with a flashing, sparkling life; a life which, interlinking with that of one of his own cells, made their bodies as intimately one as were their perfectly synchronized minds.
--p. 114 (second page of Chapter 12)
...the feeling the Five had for each other was much deeper than that felt by ordinary brothers and sisters.
She [Karen] didn't want to fight with Kit. She liked the guy! She liked to feel his mind in rapport with hers, just as she liked to dance with him; their bodies as completely in accord as were their minds.
--p. 154 (beginning of Chapter 16)
This was an equally strange Kathryn; blazing with fury yet suffusing his [Kit's] mind with a more than sisterly tenderness; a surprising richness.
--p. 223 (four pages into Chapter 23)
[Mentor said] "Your lives will be immeasurably fuller, higher, greater than any heretofore known in this universe. As your capabilities increase, you will find that you will no longer care for the society of entities less capable than your own."
--p. 291 (near end of Chapter 29)
[Mentor continued] "The time may come when your descendants will realize...
--p. 292 (end of Chapter 29)
The article currently states:
In addition, Smith is reported to have told Robert A. Heinlein at a science fiction convention that there were sufficient unresolved conflicts to write a seventh book, but that he did not think it could be published in the moral climate of the times.
This is explicitly stated in "Larger than Life", Heinlein's tribute to Smith which is included in the Heinlein collection Expanded Universe, so I'm changing the article to reflect that more specific info.
-- Lensman003 06:51, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
Smith certainly created the Space Opera genre but surely his "The Skylark of Space" was the first space opera. His Lensman series following closely behind it. --
Derek Ross
The introduction describes the novels as being afflicted by racist stereotypes. I am not going to argue that point, but further down, presumably in support of this claim, is the statement that Kimball Kinnison is blonde and blue eyed. I cannot find any statement to that effect, at least in the first novel, Galactic Patrol. The scene in which the reader is most directly invited to imagine Kinnison's physical appearance is that in which he dons the grey uniform marking his new status of unattached (ie accountable only to his own conscience). In that scene his reflection in the mirror has a cap covering his hair and his eyes (colour unspecified) are partially obscured by goggles. There is no argument that EES was a reactionary politically; it may be the case that his illustrator conformed to the cliches of contemporary pulp publication, but I think this is overegging the pudding. -- Alan Peakall 12:17 6 Jun 2003 (UTC)
I seem to recall that Kinnison's eyes are specifically described as "gray" at one point. -Ethan Fleischer
Anyone think there should be something added about the autobiographical and to my mind controversial (for there time) comments about the problems of the munitions industry during WWII in the US in the revised version of Triplanetary. I consider those pages that describe "the siberians" at the mutinions factory as a very rich detail of one aspect of personal morality in business and war that is as important in the literature of its time as Catch 22 was in the 60's or MASH.
As for charging E.E.Smith with racist/sexist stereotypes, I would suggest that at least some aspects of his writings deliberately challenged those. On the other hand, he was a product of his times and I would point out that all writing of the era, no matter how sensitive, aware or even lauded for successfully promoting wipping out those stereo types, had to write about believable people with believable attitudes. To successfully promote social change in the perception of women and minorities in the middle of the 20th century you had to portray the characters that your readers and viewers identified with not with perfectly unbigoted attitudes, but that actually had to confront their own predjudices and overcome them. For example the bits about Lonabar (and Illona of Lonibar) in Grey Lensman and Second Stage Lensman examine first a heroic and bigoted male (Kinnison) and then a societaly acceptible woman (Clarissa) confronting some of their stereotypes and predjudices and overcoming them to deal with this feminist society (which itself was bigotted in the opposite respect).
Jim
PS, I use the handle Nadreck just about everywhere I need a handle on the internet, yes it pays homage to Doc Smiths character but when I first got involved in the Internet I was living in Yellowknife in Canadas far north and as I considered Nadreck a perfect handle.
Somwhere in my garage is my set of Lensman books (UK edition). I definitely recall a seventh, although I also recall that it seemed to have nothing to do with the preceeding stories. Noisy | Talk 10:33, Mar 19, 2005 (UTC)
An obscure point maybe, but significant: there is nothing in the article drawing attention to an apparent contradiction in the later books by David Kyle.
In First Lensman, as mentioned in the article:
The first woman sent to Arisia is returned unharmed with the message that no more women are to be sent. She says that "only one woman will ever receive a lens".
This obviously refers to Clarissa McDougal, the "Red Lensman". However Kyle's books if I recall correctly, feature several female Lensmen (at least one of which was human). Was this ever resolved, and if so how? -- Phil | Talk 14:14, Apr 25, 2005 (UTC)
Yes, the female Lensman is a contradiction--or is just retconing the series to be more PC. Yes, there are steriotypes, but ALL literiture has steriotypes, and Kyle was a cheesy and pendantic about the female Lensman. User:Señor Cardgage
Do you always refer to yourself in the third person, Epopt? If we mentioned the gender-based contradictions in Kyle's books, we would then be obligated to address the technological contradictions, the procedural contradictions, etc. Such contradictions are many, and are of little interest unless one is engaged in the futile excersize of attempting to reconcile Smith's and Kyle's respective series in every detail. I am of the opinion that non-Smith sources such as Kyle, the Anime, Garrett, Ellern, and (so sorry!) Barrett warrant only a cursory mention (with perhaps a sentence or two of summary) in this article, unless and until it includes more detail in the sections covering Smith's original work. -Ethan Fleischer
Question: So it’s sexist for Smith to have all-male Lensmen, but not sexist for Whedon to have all-female vampire slayers?
Smith is only sexist when looked at through modern eyes - an author putting women in any form of comabt unit at that time (especially with the very morally conservative s-f readership of the time) would have been ridiculed. Remember that Heinlein's female starship captains in Starship Troopers were seen as 'out-there' when the novel was first published. 88.105.44.137 ( talk) 22:59, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
Someone edited my paragraph on "Primary Beam" (under Weapons) to say the spent shells were "energy" shells, and inserted a note saying they were like modern bomb-pumped X-ray lasers. This is a misinterpretation of the canon. The power source for primary beams was still the spaceship's main power grid, using Cosmic Energy. It was the primary's emitter which was spent and ejected with each shot. -- Lensman003 09:40, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
Some kind of shout out to Harrison's Star Smashers of the Galaxy Rangers would be appropriate, it's so clearly a loving parody of all that rockribbed irony-free universe spanning pulp insanity :)
I can't give citations for this, but I do seem to remember reading that SSOTGR and the Bil The Galactic Hero novels were distinctly non-loving parodies. Harrison, as a pacifist, hated the racist (species-ist?) and militaristic overtones of that form of story. 88.105.44.137 ( talk) 23:06, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
The chapters are named in the book version, but merely numbered in the original. Copy editing of both the Amazing and Astounding text is poorer than the book versions, but the books omit occasional (apparently authorial) blank lines between paragraphs.
Likewise Clio Marsden's plea:
This suggests to me that Dr. Smith, after World War II, may have become more uneasy with the pointless slaughter of civilians who would turn into allies. There are odd suggestions of parallels with World War I which are unchanged in both versions, e.g., Costigan's excessive use of poison gas on civilians. I don't know what to make of this; was Dr. Smith suggesting a parallel between the Triplanetary Council and Germany under the Kaiser, with excessive violence which can turn into an alliance? Nevia's stance as a superior observer (e.g., Nerado's comment, "Destruction, always destruction… they are a useless race," February p. 81, p. 160) drawn into internecine conflict suggests a parallel with America. Completing the parallel would require identifying Gray Roger with France, which I admit might be excessive.
The technological hierarchy is surprising viewed in the context of the Lensman novels. Initially, the Nevians' technology is quite clearly superior: they are the inventors of faster than light travel, which does not require the fully inertialess drive. Nerado's comparison of humanity to the semicivilized fishes of the greater deeps does not seem unreasonable at the time. The later books' references to Bergenholm slight the Nevian's technology, but in Triplanetary, Cleveland and Rodebush's invention of the inertialess drive is separate development, leading only to a largely irrelevant speed-up of interstellar travel, and some odd temporary side effects.
The Triplanetary forces are in turn quite clearly superior to Gray Roger, who is simply a pirate (with very human proclivities, albeit some Jovian improvements) who would soon be defeated, and later destroyed. He seems an oddly impotent vehicle for an entity as powerful as Gharlane.
FlashSheridan 15:58, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
Very possibly, the impotence you suggest is a consequence of rewriting Roger as Gharlane. There are undoubtedly other differences that you haven't cited above (e.g. Gharlane's efforts to mindprobe Conway and Cleo, which were blocked by an Arisian Watchman).
Costigan's use of V2 was motivated solely by the fact that he was operating almost effectively alone against a planetary-scale opponent. Forced to indulge in highly asymmetric warfare, with any access to electronics or nucleonics effectively blocked, and with no knowledge of Nevian biochemistry except that they were quasi-amphibian oxygen breathers, he had no choice but to guess that they were sufficiently similar to humanity that the toxin V2 (which I've always presumed to be a nerve agent, though of course the original Triplanetary was written in advance of discovery of any of the nerve agents, much less the V series), which he knew how to synthesize, was also toxic to Nevians. Notwithstanding the modern horror accorded to chemical weapons, sometimes seeming even greater than that accorded to the more dangerous nuclear and biological variety, there remain a number of tactical situations where, frankly, they could be used more effectively than either conventional forces or less restricted stragetic weapons. NOT, mind you, that I am arguing that they should be legitimized. But, misguided or not, it was concern about those potential tactical advantages that lead us to interdict Saddam before he could transfer his presumed chemical arsenal to guerilla/saboteur/terrorist forces that could use them effectively. Costigan was in an ideal situation to use them effectively.
Doc W, 05:18 26 June 2006 (UTC)
— FlashSheridan 17:09, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
“to science that data is necessary… It is so evident that the persons or beings who are operating it do not know, or are at least not utilizing, one percent of its potentities. They stumbled upon it — blundered into it — someone with at least a rudimentary knowledge of science must analyze its possibilities, so that the Conference may exhaust its real possibilities.”
— FlashSheridan ( talk) 19:49, 2 February 2008 (PST)
“Blocked!
“Star A Star and the Arisian, then, were not two but one!” / Not in original.
— FlashSheridan ( talk) 05:52, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
— FlashSheridan ( talk) 16:55, 17 April 2010 (UTC)
Page numbers refer to the original version in Astonishing Stories June 1942 and the revised and expanded Gnome Press book. It’s worth bearing in mind that, so far as most readers were concerned, this was the sole continuation of the Lensman series, in a post-Boskonian First Galaxy; it’s a minor law enforcement story rather than a war story or scientific romance. Setting a crime story in a galaxy with second stage Lensmen is obviously difficult, if not impossible, and I’m not convinced that Dr. Smith managed it. The criminals worry about three of the four second stage Lensman by name (deleted in the book version), and are very careful of detection by minor statistical anomalies, but not the most important one. The absence of Lensmen is crucial to the action, but would have ended as soon as the falseness of the Patrol vehicle (and officer) were noted; Dr Smith himself begins the series with the importance of detecting imposture in law enforcement.
• 58/47 “Graves and Fairchild... Both dead”: Interpolation.
The editor (or Sam Moskowitz?) of Astonishing has an article on Dr Smith beginning on page 6. The biography mostly seems to agree with the usual sources, with some exceptions (which I should note in the E.E. Smith biography):
Astonishing Stories seemed to be doing an impressive job, which might explain John Campbell’s wrath at Dr Smith. This issue carried stories by Leigh Brackett, Alfred Bester, and Henry Kuttner. Kuttner’s story, “ The Crystal Circe,” contains the following prescient phrase on page 80, “Long ago—very long ago, and in another galaxy, light-years away.”
Astonishing October 1942
— FlashSheridan ( talk) 21:51, 4 April 2010 (UTC)
I won’t reproduce the whole wretched thing, but I’ll note that “superhypnotic” is not a term used by Dr Smith, and the candidate Lensmen were hardly just “boys of Earth.” He also seems to have badly misremembered the expedition to Jarnevon. The synopsis includes a spoiler for the installment, “a line bred by the Arisians,” but neglects one of the key points actually needing a recapitulation for this installment, that Sybly White was an identity assumed in the previous installment by Kimball Kinnison.
— FlashSheridan ( talk) 05:58, 5 March 2011 (UTC)
The first installment placed a strong first in the Analytical Library, and there are two letters in Brass Tacks eagerly anticipating Dr Smith’s return. (There’s also a story by John D. MacDonald.) There are few significant changes in this installment; the ret-con rethink does not seem to have affected the ending, which was supposedly thought through quite thoroughly in the very early stages of composition. Note that in the original, no Eddorian is ever named, and only the All-Highest is given a title. Even the Eddorian who decides to exile rather than kill Kinnison is not identified.
Respectfully submitted,
FlashSheridan ( talk) 03:31, 4 July 2011 (UTC)
My Astoundings with the original of Galactic Patrol are in storage, and it’s 20 years since I’ve seen them; but surely Surgeon-Marshal Lacy (in the book) is Surgeon-General in the original? Paul Magnussen ( talk) 21:56, 30 July 2011 (UTC)
Didn't they switch to uranium by the time of First Lensman? I think they may have mentioned it in relation to Bergenholm's improvements to the Rodebush/Cleveland Drive. -- Pariah Press 02:23, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
To the best of my memory (which should be about 98% accurate), allotrophic iron is never mentioned after the invention of the Bergenholm and its use of uranium instead of iron. Whether the uranium is converted to an allotrophic form is never mentioned, nor whether the uranium is used primarily for power or as part of the field generation (the latter is very vaguely implied by the comment about "freehand curves" drawn by Bergenholm). There is no discussion at all about technical details of atomic power plant production in the later series -- even in the Vortex Blaster novels, where it might have been relevant. I'll try to come by and clean up that discussion, but I've already spent too much time with Wiki tonight; it's been my break from a work deadline. :) - Doc W 04:57, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
So what exactly are the arguments—pro and con—for Vortex Blaster being cannon ? As best I can tell, the arguments against Vortex Blaster being cannon are:
The arguments for Vortex Blaster being cannon are:
I think this discussion need to be put in the context of two other works. The first is C. S. Lewis ’s book The Horse and His Boy. If we apply the last two arguments used against Vortex Blaster, they also apply to The Horse And His Boy as also not being Narnia canon. The story does not follow the main storyline, and Peter and company are only mentioned briefly in passing.
The other works are The Hobbit and The Silmarillion . In both those books, Frodo is not the main character, and they do not follow the main continuity per se. Of course they are all linked by the One Ring, but the bulk of The Silmarillion occurs before Sauron creates the One Ring, and the ring is not the MacGuffin in The Hobbit as it is in The Lord of the Rings. The only continuous characters in all of the books is Gandalf and Sauruman.
I realize this is all like the recent discussion about Pluto , but if we can establish Vortex Blaster as cannon, then we can make the case for it being reprinted. We have the Big Six, and Kyle’s trilogy, but not Doc’s missing masterpiece. -- Infracaninophile 01:54, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
I’m sorry you did not get the word play between “cannon” and “blaster.”-- Infracaninophile 22:09, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
A bit more on the placement, now that I’ve read the magazine “Vortex Blaster.” The original’s chronology is slightly more firmly before Children of the Lens, since there’s a reference to Sir Austin Cardynge, removed in the book version. (See above.) He had died before the beginning of CoL.
It’s worth bearing in mind that, so far as the original readers knew, the Storm Cloud stories were at the end of the series, not a mere interlude. — FlashSheridan ( talk) 19:42, 17 April 2010 (UTC)
A couple more data points on canonical status: Dr Smith managed to get a couple of allusions to the Vortex Blaster stories into Astounding, in the second installment of Children of the Lens: to vortices themselves in December 1947 p. 106 (book p. 77), and IIRC to Dhiliansas resembling a form of Ploorans.
— FlashSheridan ( talk) 05:57, 5 March 2011 (UTC)
Well, why not? -- Pariahpress 00:49, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
Fresh from editing the short bio of Gharlane of Eddore and creating one for Mentor of Arisia, I've come to the conclusion that it may be time to follow the pattern which is typically used for writing on more contemporary fiction and creating separate pages to hold the characer list (rather than individual pages for each). And while we're at it, how about separate pages for Technology in the Lensman series, Planets in the Lensman Series, and perhaps even individual novel (and Vortex Blaster) story synopses. Comments? -- Doc W 17:20, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
Another vote for splitting this long article. I'd suggest that we break out the three "glossary" sections into a separate article, or three separate articles. -- Writtenonsand ( talk) 23:22, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
..
This article reads too much like a book review, and not enough like an encyclopedia article. In particular, the article spends a lot of time at the beginning reviewing and critiquing the text, without first giving a summary of what the book is about. At the least, a concise overview of the series is needed before the critical analysis.-- Srleffler 04:26, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
These two paragraphs are problematic:
This is an encyclopedia, not a fan site. We don't make recommendations about which order to read books in. We don't express our own personal opinions that stories "seem to fall" between this or that period.
I don't think those paragraphs have any encyclopedic value. Fine for a blog or a fan site, not good for Wikipedia. -- Tony Sidaway 13:43, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
To my knowledge there is only one African-American mentioned in the entire series, and he parked cars. I believe there may also have been a reference to the admiral of the African continental contingent of Earth's space fleet with an African (rather than a European colonial) sounding name. I'm not implying much of anything here, just pointing out something that occurred to me after having read the books many times. It seems fair to say that the author indulged in many stereotypes among the Earthlings. For instance the head of the academy where Earth's Lensmen are trained is named Von Hohendorff and is a cipher for pitiless German commandants, at least on the outside. Gray Roger's henchmen are all stereotypes as well: the "lantern jawed" American is obsessed with money, the Frenchman wants women, etc. And when you look at the aliens in this light, you occasionally find the same thing: the catlike aliens are caricatures of the general Western world's view of cats, rather than, say, the Egyptian view of cats. Were I to research this concept, I am sure I would find lots more.
I bring this up because it seems to dovetail with the discussion of female lensmen. It has been suggested that the notion of women going into combat was more or less taboo, so the author didn't pursue it. But was there really any reason to make the only visibly black character a car-hop? By the time the novels were written, there had been many notable scientists of color. Does this reveal anything about the author? Or was it just normal for the pulp science fiction of the day? 76.168.70.193 ( talk) 05:36, 10 March 2009 (UTC)Fifth Pillinipsi
I recently edited the list of planets in the main article to correct the statement that Klovia was the first planet in Lundmark's Nebula to go over to civilization. This is clearly incorrect, as Medon joined civilization and was moved from Lundmark's Nebula to our galaxy in Grey Lensman. Klovia is not mentioned until the next volume of the series, when Grand Fleet invades the second galaxy. As happens all too often with incorrect Wikipedia entries, this false notion has sadly been repeated all over the web, and the correction is unlikely to propagate. 76.168.70.193 ( talk) 07:35, 11 March 2009 (UTC)Twelfth Pilinipsi, Chief Dexitroboper
I think the list of points speculating on the unpublished book Smith had in mind needs to be removed if it can't be cited; it seems like original research as it stands. Mike Christie (talk) 11:24, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
Stating that the Patrol's computation technology is restricted to slide rules and analogue calculation machines is incorrect. While there are few references to electronic computers in the series (arguably only one major, in Children of the Lens, and that one vague enough that it might as well be talking about a difference engine for all we know), there are multiple instances of independently working robots, which necessitates some form of at least rudimentary artificial intelligence. (Before others launch at me for bringing up the David Kyle books, I'm talking about the original series, specifically Triplanetary and Second-Stage Lensmen.) In Triplanetary, one android (well, gynoid) can pass well for human, but upon internal inspection is found to be "full of the prettiest machinery and circuits you ever saw", and less advanced robots (e.g., those used by Rogers for menial tasks) don't seem very uncommon. Similarly, as of the Boskonian attack on Tellus, entire fleets of Patrol ships are "automatics" crewed by "robots" requiring only "little superintendence". Melasnikov ( talk) 10:51, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
Old Earth Books no longer publishes the original series. From their website (as of 2-July-2010): "The Old Earth Books six-volume collection of trade paperback facsimiles of the original Fantasy Press hardcover editions of E. E. "Doc" Smith's classic Lensmen series are officially out of print. Old Earth Books no longer has the reprint rights and it is not known when or by whom the series will be reprinted in the future."
Dthein ( talk) 21:12, 2 July 2010 (UTC) Dave Hein (dthein)
Normally there is a paragraph (or two) outlining the story without spoilers. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 175.32.217.76 ( talk) 22:03, 13 December 2011 (UTC)
Traveling through the endless dimensions of space and time, the heroes of Number of the Beast also travel into other books. Both the Lensmen and incest/ alternative sex were "explored" in Number of the Beast. I dont know if that helps resolving the controversy or not. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.88.168.34 ( talk) 18:27, 15 January 2012 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lehnsmann — Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.63.185.169 ( talk) 22:58, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
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Found a citation for the denial of connections, but am not sure how to cite it. Here it is: https://books.google.com/books?id=TyurDgAAQBAJ&pg=PA122&lpg=PA122&dq=green+lantern+lensman&source=bl&ots=guHsMrjADM&sig=gYNJAnL7jnOk6lqZ_bmDWXBuOfE&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiWvoiJsaDZAhUoTt8KHSYzANQ4ChDoAQhGMAY#v=onepage&q=green%20lantern%20lensman&f=false -- Khajidha ( talk) 12:35, 12 February 2018 (UTC)
I looked at the plot summary to see if I could cut it down some per the markup on the page. I actually think it's pretty good and not unreasonably long for a summary of 6 books published over a span of 26 years. It could visually be clarified by subheads for each book, then each summary would look short. Scanlyze ( talk) 12:33, 15 August 2019 (UTC)
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Hi editors of Wikipedia. There is a reference to the Lensman series towards the end of Heinlein's "To Sail Beyond the Sunset". He claimed that Doc smith's Lensman participated in one of the Circle of Ouroboros's operations. Not sure if this is worthy of inclusion in the article or not (I haven't gotten to the Lensman series yet) but I figured I'd let you know. ~David.
1. Calling the Second Stage Lensmen's sense of perception "clairvoyance" is an accurate description. To quote Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary:
(a) the power or faculty of discerning objects not present to the senses. (b) the ability to perceive matters beyond the range of ordinary perception: PENETRATION.
So I hope that no one will *again* delete my edit clarifying that what Smith calls "perception" is a form of clairvoyance.
2. I could have sworn that I strengthened the references to the Children of the Lens having an incestuous marriage resulting in a new race of superhumans. Yet apparently someone reversed my edits, as the article currently reads "Some readers infer the possibility of an incestuous group-marriage..."
This is simply inadequate. There is a clear implication that in the future the Children of the Lens will mate to produce a race of super-humans-- not Homo Sapiens, but Homo Superior-- and it seems Smith would have stated it more directly if the censorship of the publishing field were not so strong at the time.
The Universes of E.E. Smith says, under the "sex" entry: "...it is implied that Christopher Kinnison in maturity would mate with all four of his sisters (COL 72, 114, etc.)
If there are "Doubting Thomases" out there, let me quote from the Lensman series itself. I'm quoting from the Old Earth Books facsimiles of the original hardbacks, not the error-ridden paperbacks from Pyramid and Berkeley.
...each of the Kinnison girls knew it would be a physical and psychological impossibility for her to become even mildly interested in a man not at least her father's equal. They each had dreamed of a man who would be her own equal, physically and mentally, but it had not yet occurred to any of them that one such man already existed.
--Children of the Lens, p. 72 (near end of Chapter 7)
The kids were special in another way, too, he [Kit] had noticed lately, without paying it any particular attention... They didn't feel like other girls. After dancing with one of them, other girls felt like robots made out of putty. Their flesh was different. It was firmer, finer, infinitely more responsive. Each individual cell seemed to be endowed with a flashing, sparkling life; a life which, interlinking with that of one of his own cells, made their bodies as intimately one as were their perfectly synchronized minds.
--p. 114 (second page of Chapter 12)
...the feeling the Five had for each other was much deeper than that felt by ordinary brothers and sisters.
She [Karen] didn't want to fight with Kit. She liked the guy! She liked to feel his mind in rapport with hers, just as she liked to dance with him; their bodies as completely in accord as were their minds.
--p. 154 (beginning of Chapter 16)
This was an equally strange Kathryn; blazing with fury yet suffusing his [Kit's] mind with a more than sisterly tenderness; a surprising richness.
--p. 223 (four pages into Chapter 23)
[Mentor said] "Your lives will be immeasurably fuller, higher, greater than any heretofore known in this universe. As your capabilities increase, you will find that you will no longer care for the society of entities less capable than your own."
--p. 291 (near end of Chapter 29)
[Mentor continued] "The time may come when your descendants will realize...
--p. 292 (end of Chapter 29)
The article currently states:
In addition, Smith is reported to have told Robert A. Heinlein at a science fiction convention that there were sufficient unresolved conflicts to write a seventh book, but that he did not think it could be published in the moral climate of the times.
This is explicitly stated in "Larger than Life", Heinlein's tribute to Smith which is included in the Heinlein collection Expanded Universe, so I'm changing the article to reflect that more specific info.
-- Lensman003 06:51, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
Smith certainly created the Space Opera genre but surely his "The Skylark of Space" was the first space opera. His Lensman series following closely behind it. --
Derek Ross
The introduction describes the novels as being afflicted by racist stereotypes. I am not going to argue that point, but further down, presumably in support of this claim, is the statement that Kimball Kinnison is blonde and blue eyed. I cannot find any statement to that effect, at least in the first novel, Galactic Patrol. The scene in which the reader is most directly invited to imagine Kinnison's physical appearance is that in which he dons the grey uniform marking his new status of unattached (ie accountable only to his own conscience). In that scene his reflection in the mirror has a cap covering his hair and his eyes (colour unspecified) are partially obscured by goggles. There is no argument that EES was a reactionary politically; it may be the case that his illustrator conformed to the cliches of contemporary pulp publication, but I think this is overegging the pudding. -- Alan Peakall 12:17 6 Jun 2003 (UTC)
I seem to recall that Kinnison's eyes are specifically described as "gray" at one point. -Ethan Fleischer
Anyone think there should be something added about the autobiographical and to my mind controversial (for there time) comments about the problems of the munitions industry during WWII in the US in the revised version of Triplanetary. I consider those pages that describe "the siberians" at the mutinions factory as a very rich detail of one aspect of personal morality in business and war that is as important in the literature of its time as Catch 22 was in the 60's or MASH.
As for charging E.E.Smith with racist/sexist stereotypes, I would suggest that at least some aspects of his writings deliberately challenged those. On the other hand, he was a product of his times and I would point out that all writing of the era, no matter how sensitive, aware or even lauded for successfully promoting wipping out those stereo types, had to write about believable people with believable attitudes. To successfully promote social change in the perception of women and minorities in the middle of the 20th century you had to portray the characters that your readers and viewers identified with not with perfectly unbigoted attitudes, but that actually had to confront their own predjudices and overcome them. For example the bits about Lonabar (and Illona of Lonibar) in Grey Lensman and Second Stage Lensman examine first a heroic and bigoted male (Kinnison) and then a societaly acceptible woman (Clarissa) confronting some of their stereotypes and predjudices and overcoming them to deal with this feminist society (which itself was bigotted in the opposite respect).
Jim
PS, I use the handle Nadreck just about everywhere I need a handle on the internet, yes it pays homage to Doc Smiths character but when I first got involved in the Internet I was living in Yellowknife in Canadas far north and as I considered Nadreck a perfect handle.
Somwhere in my garage is my set of Lensman books (UK edition). I definitely recall a seventh, although I also recall that it seemed to have nothing to do with the preceeding stories. Noisy | Talk 10:33, Mar 19, 2005 (UTC)
An obscure point maybe, but significant: there is nothing in the article drawing attention to an apparent contradiction in the later books by David Kyle.
In First Lensman, as mentioned in the article:
The first woman sent to Arisia is returned unharmed with the message that no more women are to be sent. She says that "only one woman will ever receive a lens".
This obviously refers to Clarissa McDougal, the "Red Lensman". However Kyle's books if I recall correctly, feature several female Lensmen (at least one of which was human). Was this ever resolved, and if so how? -- Phil | Talk 14:14, Apr 25, 2005 (UTC)
Yes, the female Lensman is a contradiction--or is just retconing the series to be more PC. Yes, there are steriotypes, but ALL literiture has steriotypes, and Kyle was a cheesy and pendantic about the female Lensman. User:Señor Cardgage
Do you always refer to yourself in the third person, Epopt? If we mentioned the gender-based contradictions in Kyle's books, we would then be obligated to address the technological contradictions, the procedural contradictions, etc. Such contradictions are many, and are of little interest unless one is engaged in the futile excersize of attempting to reconcile Smith's and Kyle's respective series in every detail. I am of the opinion that non-Smith sources such as Kyle, the Anime, Garrett, Ellern, and (so sorry!) Barrett warrant only a cursory mention (with perhaps a sentence or two of summary) in this article, unless and until it includes more detail in the sections covering Smith's original work. -Ethan Fleischer
Question: So it’s sexist for Smith to have all-male Lensmen, but not sexist for Whedon to have all-female vampire slayers?
Smith is only sexist when looked at through modern eyes - an author putting women in any form of comabt unit at that time (especially with the very morally conservative s-f readership of the time) would have been ridiculed. Remember that Heinlein's female starship captains in Starship Troopers were seen as 'out-there' when the novel was first published. 88.105.44.137 ( talk) 22:59, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
Someone edited my paragraph on "Primary Beam" (under Weapons) to say the spent shells were "energy" shells, and inserted a note saying they were like modern bomb-pumped X-ray lasers. This is a misinterpretation of the canon. The power source for primary beams was still the spaceship's main power grid, using Cosmic Energy. It was the primary's emitter which was spent and ejected with each shot. -- Lensman003 09:40, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
Some kind of shout out to Harrison's Star Smashers of the Galaxy Rangers would be appropriate, it's so clearly a loving parody of all that rockribbed irony-free universe spanning pulp insanity :)
I can't give citations for this, but I do seem to remember reading that SSOTGR and the Bil The Galactic Hero novels were distinctly non-loving parodies. Harrison, as a pacifist, hated the racist (species-ist?) and militaristic overtones of that form of story. 88.105.44.137 ( talk) 23:06, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
The chapters are named in the book version, but merely numbered in the original. Copy editing of both the Amazing and Astounding text is poorer than the book versions, but the books omit occasional (apparently authorial) blank lines between paragraphs.
Likewise Clio Marsden's plea:
This suggests to me that Dr. Smith, after World War II, may have become more uneasy with the pointless slaughter of civilians who would turn into allies. There are odd suggestions of parallels with World War I which are unchanged in both versions, e.g., Costigan's excessive use of poison gas on civilians. I don't know what to make of this; was Dr. Smith suggesting a parallel between the Triplanetary Council and Germany under the Kaiser, with excessive violence which can turn into an alliance? Nevia's stance as a superior observer (e.g., Nerado's comment, "Destruction, always destruction… they are a useless race," February p. 81, p. 160) drawn into internecine conflict suggests a parallel with America. Completing the parallel would require identifying Gray Roger with France, which I admit might be excessive.
The technological hierarchy is surprising viewed in the context of the Lensman novels. Initially, the Nevians' technology is quite clearly superior: they are the inventors of faster than light travel, which does not require the fully inertialess drive. Nerado's comparison of humanity to the semicivilized fishes of the greater deeps does not seem unreasonable at the time. The later books' references to Bergenholm slight the Nevian's technology, but in Triplanetary, Cleveland and Rodebush's invention of the inertialess drive is separate development, leading only to a largely irrelevant speed-up of interstellar travel, and some odd temporary side effects.
The Triplanetary forces are in turn quite clearly superior to Gray Roger, who is simply a pirate (with very human proclivities, albeit some Jovian improvements) who would soon be defeated, and later destroyed. He seems an oddly impotent vehicle for an entity as powerful as Gharlane.
FlashSheridan 15:58, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
Very possibly, the impotence you suggest is a consequence of rewriting Roger as Gharlane. There are undoubtedly other differences that you haven't cited above (e.g. Gharlane's efforts to mindprobe Conway and Cleo, which were blocked by an Arisian Watchman).
Costigan's use of V2 was motivated solely by the fact that he was operating almost effectively alone against a planetary-scale opponent. Forced to indulge in highly asymmetric warfare, with any access to electronics or nucleonics effectively blocked, and with no knowledge of Nevian biochemistry except that they were quasi-amphibian oxygen breathers, he had no choice but to guess that they were sufficiently similar to humanity that the toxin V2 (which I've always presumed to be a nerve agent, though of course the original Triplanetary was written in advance of discovery of any of the nerve agents, much less the V series), which he knew how to synthesize, was also toxic to Nevians. Notwithstanding the modern horror accorded to chemical weapons, sometimes seeming even greater than that accorded to the more dangerous nuclear and biological variety, there remain a number of tactical situations where, frankly, they could be used more effectively than either conventional forces or less restricted stragetic weapons. NOT, mind you, that I am arguing that they should be legitimized. But, misguided or not, it was concern about those potential tactical advantages that lead us to interdict Saddam before he could transfer his presumed chemical arsenal to guerilla/saboteur/terrorist forces that could use them effectively. Costigan was in an ideal situation to use them effectively.
Doc W, 05:18 26 June 2006 (UTC)
— FlashSheridan 17:09, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
“to science that data is necessary… It is so evident that the persons or beings who are operating it do not know, or are at least not utilizing, one percent of its potentities. They stumbled upon it — blundered into it — someone with at least a rudimentary knowledge of science must analyze its possibilities, so that the Conference may exhaust its real possibilities.”
— FlashSheridan ( talk) 19:49, 2 February 2008 (PST)
“Blocked!
“Star A Star and the Arisian, then, were not two but one!” / Not in original.
— FlashSheridan ( talk) 05:52, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
— FlashSheridan ( talk) 16:55, 17 April 2010 (UTC)
Page numbers refer to the original version in Astonishing Stories June 1942 and the revised and expanded Gnome Press book. It’s worth bearing in mind that, so far as most readers were concerned, this was the sole continuation of the Lensman series, in a post-Boskonian First Galaxy; it’s a minor law enforcement story rather than a war story or scientific romance. Setting a crime story in a galaxy with second stage Lensmen is obviously difficult, if not impossible, and I’m not convinced that Dr. Smith managed it. The criminals worry about three of the four second stage Lensman by name (deleted in the book version), and are very careful of detection by minor statistical anomalies, but not the most important one. The absence of Lensmen is crucial to the action, but would have ended as soon as the falseness of the Patrol vehicle (and officer) were noted; Dr Smith himself begins the series with the importance of detecting imposture in law enforcement.
• 58/47 “Graves and Fairchild... Both dead”: Interpolation.
The editor (or Sam Moskowitz?) of Astonishing has an article on Dr Smith beginning on page 6. The biography mostly seems to agree with the usual sources, with some exceptions (which I should note in the E.E. Smith biography):
Astonishing Stories seemed to be doing an impressive job, which might explain John Campbell’s wrath at Dr Smith. This issue carried stories by Leigh Brackett, Alfred Bester, and Henry Kuttner. Kuttner’s story, “ The Crystal Circe,” contains the following prescient phrase on page 80, “Long ago—very long ago, and in another galaxy, light-years away.”
Astonishing October 1942
— FlashSheridan ( talk) 21:51, 4 April 2010 (UTC)
I won’t reproduce the whole wretched thing, but I’ll note that “superhypnotic” is not a term used by Dr Smith, and the candidate Lensmen were hardly just “boys of Earth.” He also seems to have badly misremembered the expedition to Jarnevon. The synopsis includes a spoiler for the installment, “a line bred by the Arisians,” but neglects one of the key points actually needing a recapitulation for this installment, that Sybly White was an identity assumed in the previous installment by Kimball Kinnison.
— FlashSheridan ( talk) 05:58, 5 March 2011 (UTC)
The first installment placed a strong first in the Analytical Library, and there are two letters in Brass Tacks eagerly anticipating Dr Smith’s return. (There’s also a story by John D. MacDonald.) There are few significant changes in this installment; the ret-con rethink does not seem to have affected the ending, which was supposedly thought through quite thoroughly in the very early stages of composition. Note that in the original, no Eddorian is ever named, and only the All-Highest is given a title. Even the Eddorian who decides to exile rather than kill Kinnison is not identified.
Respectfully submitted,
FlashSheridan ( talk) 03:31, 4 July 2011 (UTC)
My Astoundings with the original of Galactic Patrol are in storage, and it’s 20 years since I’ve seen them; but surely Surgeon-Marshal Lacy (in the book) is Surgeon-General in the original? Paul Magnussen ( talk) 21:56, 30 July 2011 (UTC)
Didn't they switch to uranium by the time of First Lensman? I think they may have mentioned it in relation to Bergenholm's improvements to the Rodebush/Cleveland Drive. -- Pariah Press 02:23, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
To the best of my memory (which should be about 98% accurate), allotrophic iron is never mentioned after the invention of the Bergenholm and its use of uranium instead of iron. Whether the uranium is converted to an allotrophic form is never mentioned, nor whether the uranium is used primarily for power or as part of the field generation (the latter is very vaguely implied by the comment about "freehand curves" drawn by Bergenholm). There is no discussion at all about technical details of atomic power plant production in the later series -- even in the Vortex Blaster novels, where it might have been relevant. I'll try to come by and clean up that discussion, but I've already spent too much time with Wiki tonight; it's been my break from a work deadline. :) - Doc W 04:57, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
So what exactly are the arguments—pro and con—for Vortex Blaster being cannon ? As best I can tell, the arguments against Vortex Blaster being cannon are:
The arguments for Vortex Blaster being cannon are:
I think this discussion need to be put in the context of two other works. The first is C. S. Lewis ’s book The Horse and His Boy. If we apply the last two arguments used against Vortex Blaster, they also apply to The Horse And His Boy as also not being Narnia canon. The story does not follow the main storyline, and Peter and company are only mentioned briefly in passing.
The other works are The Hobbit and The Silmarillion . In both those books, Frodo is not the main character, and they do not follow the main continuity per se. Of course they are all linked by the One Ring, but the bulk of The Silmarillion occurs before Sauron creates the One Ring, and the ring is not the MacGuffin in The Hobbit as it is in The Lord of the Rings. The only continuous characters in all of the books is Gandalf and Sauruman.
I realize this is all like the recent discussion about Pluto , but if we can establish Vortex Blaster as cannon, then we can make the case for it being reprinted. We have the Big Six, and Kyle’s trilogy, but not Doc’s missing masterpiece. -- Infracaninophile 01:54, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
I’m sorry you did not get the word play between “cannon” and “blaster.”-- Infracaninophile 22:09, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
A bit more on the placement, now that I’ve read the magazine “Vortex Blaster.” The original’s chronology is slightly more firmly before Children of the Lens, since there’s a reference to Sir Austin Cardynge, removed in the book version. (See above.) He had died before the beginning of CoL.
It’s worth bearing in mind that, so far as the original readers knew, the Storm Cloud stories were at the end of the series, not a mere interlude. — FlashSheridan ( talk) 19:42, 17 April 2010 (UTC)
A couple more data points on canonical status: Dr Smith managed to get a couple of allusions to the Vortex Blaster stories into Astounding, in the second installment of Children of the Lens: to vortices themselves in December 1947 p. 106 (book p. 77), and IIRC to Dhiliansas resembling a form of Ploorans.
— FlashSheridan ( talk) 05:57, 5 March 2011 (UTC)
Well, why not? -- Pariahpress 00:49, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
Fresh from editing the short bio of Gharlane of Eddore and creating one for Mentor of Arisia, I've come to the conclusion that it may be time to follow the pattern which is typically used for writing on more contemporary fiction and creating separate pages to hold the characer list (rather than individual pages for each). And while we're at it, how about separate pages for Technology in the Lensman series, Planets in the Lensman Series, and perhaps even individual novel (and Vortex Blaster) story synopses. Comments? -- Doc W 17:20, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
Another vote for splitting this long article. I'd suggest that we break out the three "glossary" sections into a separate article, or three separate articles. -- Writtenonsand ( talk) 23:22, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
..
This article reads too much like a book review, and not enough like an encyclopedia article. In particular, the article spends a lot of time at the beginning reviewing and critiquing the text, without first giving a summary of what the book is about. At the least, a concise overview of the series is needed before the critical analysis.-- Srleffler 04:26, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
These two paragraphs are problematic:
This is an encyclopedia, not a fan site. We don't make recommendations about which order to read books in. We don't express our own personal opinions that stories "seem to fall" between this or that period.
I don't think those paragraphs have any encyclopedic value. Fine for a blog or a fan site, not good for Wikipedia. -- Tony Sidaway 13:43, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
To my knowledge there is only one African-American mentioned in the entire series, and he parked cars. I believe there may also have been a reference to the admiral of the African continental contingent of Earth's space fleet with an African (rather than a European colonial) sounding name. I'm not implying much of anything here, just pointing out something that occurred to me after having read the books many times. It seems fair to say that the author indulged in many stereotypes among the Earthlings. For instance the head of the academy where Earth's Lensmen are trained is named Von Hohendorff and is a cipher for pitiless German commandants, at least on the outside. Gray Roger's henchmen are all stereotypes as well: the "lantern jawed" American is obsessed with money, the Frenchman wants women, etc. And when you look at the aliens in this light, you occasionally find the same thing: the catlike aliens are caricatures of the general Western world's view of cats, rather than, say, the Egyptian view of cats. Were I to research this concept, I am sure I would find lots more.
I bring this up because it seems to dovetail with the discussion of female lensmen. It has been suggested that the notion of women going into combat was more or less taboo, so the author didn't pursue it. But was there really any reason to make the only visibly black character a car-hop? By the time the novels were written, there had been many notable scientists of color. Does this reveal anything about the author? Or was it just normal for the pulp science fiction of the day? 76.168.70.193 ( talk) 05:36, 10 March 2009 (UTC)Fifth Pillinipsi
I recently edited the list of planets in the main article to correct the statement that Klovia was the first planet in Lundmark's Nebula to go over to civilization. This is clearly incorrect, as Medon joined civilization and was moved from Lundmark's Nebula to our galaxy in Grey Lensman. Klovia is not mentioned until the next volume of the series, when Grand Fleet invades the second galaxy. As happens all too often with incorrect Wikipedia entries, this false notion has sadly been repeated all over the web, and the correction is unlikely to propagate. 76.168.70.193 ( talk) 07:35, 11 March 2009 (UTC)Twelfth Pilinipsi, Chief Dexitroboper
I think the list of points speculating on the unpublished book Smith had in mind needs to be removed if it can't be cited; it seems like original research as it stands. Mike Christie (talk) 11:24, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
Stating that the Patrol's computation technology is restricted to slide rules and analogue calculation machines is incorrect. While there are few references to electronic computers in the series (arguably only one major, in Children of the Lens, and that one vague enough that it might as well be talking about a difference engine for all we know), there are multiple instances of independently working robots, which necessitates some form of at least rudimentary artificial intelligence. (Before others launch at me for bringing up the David Kyle books, I'm talking about the original series, specifically Triplanetary and Second-Stage Lensmen.) In Triplanetary, one android (well, gynoid) can pass well for human, but upon internal inspection is found to be "full of the prettiest machinery and circuits you ever saw", and less advanced robots (e.g., those used by Rogers for menial tasks) don't seem very uncommon. Similarly, as of the Boskonian attack on Tellus, entire fleets of Patrol ships are "automatics" crewed by "robots" requiring only "little superintendence". Melasnikov ( talk) 10:51, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
Old Earth Books no longer publishes the original series. From their website (as of 2-July-2010): "The Old Earth Books six-volume collection of trade paperback facsimiles of the original Fantasy Press hardcover editions of E. E. "Doc" Smith's classic Lensmen series are officially out of print. Old Earth Books no longer has the reprint rights and it is not known when or by whom the series will be reprinted in the future."
Dthein ( talk) 21:12, 2 July 2010 (UTC) Dave Hein (dthein)
Normally there is a paragraph (or two) outlining the story without spoilers. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 175.32.217.76 ( talk) 22:03, 13 December 2011 (UTC)
Traveling through the endless dimensions of space and time, the heroes of Number of the Beast also travel into other books. Both the Lensmen and incest/ alternative sex were "explored" in Number of the Beast. I dont know if that helps resolving the controversy or not. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.88.168.34 ( talk) 18:27, 15 January 2012 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lehnsmann — Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.63.185.169 ( talk) 22:58, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
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Found a citation for the denial of connections, but am not sure how to cite it. Here it is: https://books.google.com/books?id=TyurDgAAQBAJ&pg=PA122&lpg=PA122&dq=green+lantern+lensman&source=bl&ots=guHsMrjADM&sig=gYNJAnL7jnOk6lqZ_bmDWXBuOfE&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiWvoiJsaDZAhUoTt8KHSYzANQ4ChDoAQhGMAY#v=onepage&q=green%20lantern%20lensman&f=false -- Khajidha ( talk) 12:35, 12 February 2018 (UTC)
I looked at the plot summary to see if I could cut it down some per the markup on the page. I actually think it's pretty good and not unreasonably long for a summary of 6 books published over a span of 26 years. It could visually be clarified by subheads for each book, then each summary would look short. Scanlyze ( talk) 12:33, 15 August 2019 (UTC)