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Could we just quit with the vandalism on her page, citing her father as ventriloquist Jeff Dunham? He's not her father. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.62.68.222 ( talk) 00:12, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
"Lena Dunham Cancels Appearances Amid Molestation Accusations":
GaiaHugger ( talk) 23:48, 3 November 2014 (UTC)
Given that it has now moved beyond churnalism [1] [2] and we have an admittedly very short response there is probably now enough material to write a short NPOV section. ©Geni ( talk) 22:12, 4 November 2014 (UTC)
Here's a proposed edit to include the sexual abuse stuff in a non-obnoxious way: Create 'Writing' and 'Movies and television' subheadings for Career. Place a Main template linking to Not That Kind of Girl, move the bit about the book deal to that section, and expand the current part about the book, like this:
On October 8, 2012, Dunham signed a $3.5 million deal with Random House to publish her first book, an essay collection entitled Not That Kind of Girl: A Young Woman Tells You What She's "Learned". [1] The book was published in September 2014. [2] [3] Dunham dedicated the foreword of the book to her friend, Nora Ephron. [3] The book has reached The New York Times Best Seller list. [4] Several reviews compared the collection of essays to works of Ephron and Helen Gurley Brown, another cited influence of Dunham's. [5] [6] [7]
In November, a critical article about Dunham by Kevin D. Williamson in the conservative magazine National Review said that passages of the book implied that Dunham, when she was 7-years-old, had behaved in a sexually inappropriate manner towards her infant sister. [8] [9] Although the accusation was picked up by other conservative news outlets, it has been refuted by both Lena and Grace Dunham themselves, as well as psychologists, pediatricians, and sociologists, who describe the behavior as age appropriate, and non-abusive. [10] [11] [12] [13] Dunham did apologize for a comedic use of the term 'sexual predator' in the book, which she described as insensitive and triggering. [13] According to Dunham, her sister has found the controversy laughable. [14]
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Thoughts? Grayfell ( talk) 10:26, 8 November 2014 (UTC)
I agree that an entire controversy section would be too much for the story as it currently presents itself, and that mentions, should be kept to a subsection under reception of the book. I also agree with this not being a fan page, but that content should be kept as relevant and balanced as possible. Furthermore, as the incidents occurred in childhood and considering the number of reliable sources who deems the incidents to not be child abuse, but sexual exploration in childhood, I think the wording should be considered with incredible care. I also feel that it's perhaps worth mentioning the initial miss print which painted her as seventeen instead of seven when the vagina incident occurred it seems to have sparked the controversy however I'm still researching the extend of this. I don't know how i feel about the line regarding her little sister finding it laughable. It might be too heavily weighed on Lena Dunhams perspective depending on the timeframe of incidents. If these were childhood occurrences it seems appropriate, however if the occurrences are spread out over the childhood and teen years you have a false sense of normalcy involved and a brief mention that the incidents are reoccurring throughout childhood might be prudent if the laughable comment is to be kept. Still researching this however so will expand on it later in the talk section. DuusieDos ( talk) 00:09, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
The whole 7/17 misunderstanding is as far as I can gather because of a miss print in the book. The vagina incident (wow i hate this term) happened when she was 7. I am however having a hard time confirming if the rest of the described behavior happened in childhood or continued all the way up to near adulthood. Can anyone confirm? DuusieDos ( talk) 09:06, 18 November 2014 (UTC) I Should mention that I agree that limiting the controversy to a single incident would be dishonest, I was commenting on the single childhood incident, I didn't suggest only focusing on it. Sorry if it was ambiguously written. DuusieDos ( talk) 09:31, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
I went off the editors note from Truthrevolt [1] However you are correct in that they ambiguously stated that the typo was in the book excerpt. So we should assume it's a typo in the article. DuusieDos ( talk) 14:13, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
I proposing following edit of the first draft. added: 2014 replaced: "Said" with "Claimed" considering "Wrote" as a third option. replaced: "refuted" with "repudiated" as the word refute means to present evidence of falsehood which is impossible. added: "Rejected by" (psychologists, pediatricians, and sociologists) deleted: passage about sisters comment which adds undue weight without the context of possible continued abuse
In November 2014*, a critical article about Dunham by Kevin D. Williamson in the conservative magazine National Review claimed* that passages of the book implied that Dunham, when she was 7-years-old, had behaved in a sexually inappropriate manner towards her infant sister. [2] [3] Although the accusation was picked up by other conservative news outlets, it has been repudiated* by both Lena and Grace Dunham themselves, as well as rejected* by psychologists, pediatricians, and sociologists, who describe the behavior as age appropriate, and non-abusive. [4] [5] [6] [7] Dunham did apologize for a comedic use of the term 'sexual predator' in the book, which she described as insensitive and triggering. [7]
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References
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I feel that perhaps a mention of her reaction to the accusation as well as mention of other instances of possibly abusive behavior along would bring context to the section and make her sisters comment usable. I also feel that perhaps a restructuring might be in order, as to not make the controversy section larger than it need be. Thoughts? DuusieDos ( talk) 15:38, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
I believe we should decide whether the controversy surrounding the book release should be on Lena Dunham or on Not That Kind of Girl I feel like adding it to the book's page instead of Lena Dunham's would minimize the exposure and be more in line with WP:BLP
I don't think we're not in line with WP:BLP however it does state that: "Biographies of living persons ("BLP"s) must be written conservatively and with regard for the subject's privacy" and I feel like in light of this the controversy might be more appropriate on the Book's page since it did origin from it's release, and considering the volatile nature of the accusations I think removing it one stop from Lena Dunham and into the page about her book would make the controversy less impacting on her article and maybe more objective. I don't know which page I personally think should contain the controversy, perhaps a footnote about the controversy should be on the book's page linking to a section in Lena Dunham but I think we need to decide and that's why I'm asking what you guys think. DuusieDos ( talk) 13:18, 19 November 2014 (UTC)
User:Blackthorne2k: Absolutely, I think we are in agreement. Honestly, I'm not sure why you phrased that to suggest we might not be. I feel like I keep having to restate this, but when this story first broke, it looked to me like gossipy nonsense. I was mistaken about that, but I'm not too bothered by that, since these are very serious charges, and it's much better to err on the side of caution for this kind of thing. I am the one who proposed wording to include it in this article, but it seems like everyone is assuming I'm dead-set against mentioning it at all.
I focused on the actual passages because you quoted them on this talk page. The fact that there are multiple passages and incidents being discussed in this controversy is important and was missing from my original suggested edit. I just wanted to make it very clear that we should be very cautious of trying to interpret the book, which it seems like we agree on. To clarify, we can, in some circumstances, use primary sources in a BLP, but this is not one of those circumstances. My major concern with the passages is that we should not pick-and-chose a handful of passages out of a 250+ page book that happen to fit the narrative of a controversy (again, I think we agree on that). I'm restating this because this is something some editors appear to be confused about. Reliable, secondary sources are citing these passages, and that's very different, but it's still something editors need to be aware of. Using other sources about Dunham's sister might be a WP:SYNTH problem, also. My comments were not intended as a counterpoint, just as a clarification (which wasn't actually very clear).
As for determining WP:DUE weight, from what I've seen comparatively few usable sources are covering this as proper news, rather than opinions/newsblogs/editorials. This controversy isn't exclusively gossip, but it is covered by a lot of borderline, gossipy sources. Any opinions should be treated very cautiously, and clearly attributed in the article. I would suggest as a bare minimum that only opinion pieces by authors who themselves have articles be used, so readers can get context about where these opinions are coming from. Actual news sources are much better for establishing due weight. Grayfell ( talk) 01:32, 20 November 2014 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Could we just quit with the vandalism on her page, citing her father as ventriloquist Jeff Dunham? He's not her father. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.62.68.222 ( talk) 00:12, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
"Lena Dunham Cancels Appearances Amid Molestation Accusations":
GaiaHugger ( talk) 23:48, 3 November 2014 (UTC)
Given that it has now moved beyond churnalism [1] [2] and we have an admittedly very short response there is probably now enough material to write a short NPOV section. ©Geni ( talk) 22:12, 4 November 2014 (UTC)
Here's a proposed edit to include the sexual abuse stuff in a non-obnoxious way: Create 'Writing' and 'Movies and television' subheadings for Career. Place a Main template linking to Not That Kind of Girl, move the bit about the book deal to that section, and expand the current part about the book, like this:
On October 8, 2012, Dunham signed a $3.5 million deal with Random House to publish her first book, an essay collection entitled Not That Kind of Girl: A Young Woman Tells You What She's "Learned". [1] The book was published in September 2014. [2] [3] Dunham dedicated the foreword of the book to her friend, Nora Ephron. [3] The book has reached The New York Times Best Seller list. [4] Several reviews compared the collection of essays to works of Ephron and Helen Gurley Brown, another cited influence of Dunham's. [5] [6] [7]
In November, a critical article about Dunham by Kevin D. Williamson in the conservative magazine National Review said that passages of the book implied that Dunham, when she was 7-years-old, had behaved in a sexually inappropriate manner towards her infant sister. [8] [9] Although the accusation was picked up by other conservative news outlets, it has been refuted by both Lena and Grace Dunham themselves, as well as psychologists, pediatricians, and sociologists, who describe the behavior as age appropriate, and non-abusive. [10] [11] [12] [13] Dunham did apologize for a comedic use of the term 'sexual predator' in the book, which she described as insensitive and triggering. [13] According to Dunham, her sister has found the controversy laughable. [14]
Sources
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References
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Thoughts? Grayfell ( talk) 10:26, 8 November 2014 (UTC)
I agree that an entire controversy section would be too much for the story as it currently presents itself, and that mentions, should be kept to a subsection under reception of the book. I also agree with this not being a fan page, but that content should be kept as relevant and balanced as possible. Furthermore, as the incidents occurred in childhood and considering the number of reliable sources who deems the incidents to not be child abuse, but sexual exploration in childhood, I think the wording should be considered with incredible care. I also feel that it's perhaps worth mentioning the initial miss print which painted her as seventeen instead of seven when the vagina incident occurred it seems to have sparked the controversy however I'm still researching the extend of this. I don't know how i feel about the line regarding her little sister finding it laughable. It might be too heavily weighed on Lena Dunhams perspective depending on the timeframe of incidents. If these were childhood occurrences it seems appropriate, however if the occurrences are spread out over the childhood and teen years you have a false sense of normalcy involved and a brief mention that the incidents are reoccurring throughout childhood might be prudent if the laughable comment is to be kept. Still researching this however so will expand on it later in the talk section. DuusieDos ( talk) 00:09, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
The whole 7/17 misunderstanding is as far as I can gather because of a miss print in the book. The vagina incident (wow i hate this term) happened when she was 7. I am however having a hard time confirming if the rest of the described behavior happened in childhood or continued all the way up to near adulthood. Can anyone confirm? DuusieDos ( talk) 09:06, 18 November 2014 (UTC) I Should mention that I agree that limiting the controversy to a single incident would be dishonest, I was commenting on the single childhood incident, I didn't suggest only focusing on it. Sorry if it was ambiguously written. DuusieDos ( talk) 09:31, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
I went off the editors note from Truthrevolt [1] However you are correct in that they ambiguously stated that the typo was in the book excerpt. So we should assume it's a typo in the article. DuusieDos ( talk) 14:13, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
I proposing following edit of the first draft. added: 2014 replaced: "Said" with "Claimed" considering "Wrote" as a third option. replaced: "refuted" with "repudiated" as the word refute means to present evidence of falsehood which is impossible. added: "Rejected by" (psychologists, pediatricians, and sociologists) deleted: passage about sisters comment which adds undue weight without the context of possible continued abuse
In November 2014*, a critical article about Dunham by Kevin D. Williamson in the conservative magazine National Review claimed* that passages of the book implied that Dunham, when she was 7-years-old, had behaved in a sexually inappropriate manner towards her infant sister. [2] [3] Although the accusation was picked up by other conservative news outlets, it has been repudiated* by both Lena and Grace Dunham themselves, as well as rejected* by psychologists, pediatricians, and sociologists, who describe the behavior as age appropriate, and non-abusive. [4] [5] [6] [7] Dunham did apologize for a comedic use of the term 'sexual predator' in the book, which she described as insensitive and triggering. [7]
Sources
|
---|
References
|
I feel that perhaps a mention of her reaction to the accusation as well as mention of other instances of possibly abusive behavior along would bring context to the section and make her sisters comment usable. I also feel that perhaps a restructuring might be in order, as to not make the controversy section larger than it need be. Thoughts? DuusieDos ( talk) 15:38, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
I believe we should decide whether the controversy surrounding the book release should be on Lena Dunham or on Not That Kind of Girl I feel like adding it to the book's page instead of Lena Dunham's would minimize the exposure and be more in line with WP:BLP
I don't think we're not in line with WP:BLP however it does state that: "Biographies of living persons ("BLP"s) must be written conservatively and with regard for the subject's privacy" and I feel like in light of this the controversy might be more appropriate on the Book's page since it did origin from it's release, and considering the volatile nature of the accusations I think removing it one stop from Lena Dunham and into the page about her book would make the controversy less impacting on her article and maybe more objective. I don't know which page I personally think should contain the controversy, perhaps a footnote about the controversy should be on the book's page linking to a section in Lena Dunham but I think we need to decide and that's why I'm asking what you guys think. DuusieDos ( talk) 13:18, 19 November 2014 (UTC)
User:Blackthorne2k: Absolutely, I think we are in agreement. Honestly, I'm not sure why you phrased that to suggest we might not be. I feel like I keep having to restate this, but when this story first broke, it looked to me like gossipy nonsense. I was mistaken about that, but I'm not too bothered by that, since these are very serious charges, and it's much better to err on the side of caution for this kind of thing. I am the one who proposed wording to include it in this article, but it seems like everyone is assuming I'm dead-set against mentioning it at all.
I focused on the actual passages because you quoted them on this talk page. The fact that there are multiple passages and incidents being discussed in this controversy is important and was missing from my original suggested edit. I just wanted to make it very clear that we should be very cautious of trying to interpret the book, which it seems like we agree on. To clarify, we can, in some circumstances, use primary sources in a BLP, but this is not one of those circumstances. My major concern with the passages is that we should not pick-and-chose a handful of passages out of a 250+ page book that happen to fit the narrative of a controversy (again, I think we agree on that). I'm restating this because this is something some editors appear to be confused about. Reliable, secondary sources are citing these passages, and that's very different, but it's still something editors need to be aware of. Using other sources about Dunham's sister might be a WP:SYNTH problem, also. My comments were not intended as a counterpoint, just as a clarification (which wasn't actually very clear).
As for determining WP:DUE weight, from what I've seen comparatively few usable sources are covering this as proper news, rather than opinions/newsblogs/editorials. This controversy isn't exclusively gossip, but it is covered by a lot of borderline, gossipy sources. Any opinions should be treated very cautiously, and clearly attributed in the article. I would suggest as a bare minimum that only opinion pieces by authors who themselves have articles be used, so readers can get context about where these opinions are coming from. Actual news sources are much better for establishing due weight. Grayfell ( talk) 01:32, 20 November 2014 (UTC)