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This page should be tidied up to resemble articles on other groups like the Beta Israel or the Abayudaya. Granted this group has genetic links with most of the world's Jewery however they also have genetic relations to their African neighbours, thus are a distinct ethnic group and this page deserves to classify them as such. Why is the Judaism tag on the right hand side when this group is not considered to be religiously Jewish? Also what languages do they speak? I'd imagine something like Shona, Ndebele or Venda. Have any of them learned Hebrew? Also this article contains nothing about countries with present populations, or about the current status of the group. I know I have raised of issues but I think this article could benefit from this upgrade.
I removed the Judaism tag on the right hand side, given that they Lemba aren't religiously or officially Jewish(yet) and thus it seems innapropriate to keep it. However it would be more appropriate to add a tag for an ethnic group, which is what the Lemba seem to be to me. Furthermore, there seems to be few hard statistics about the group. Olockers 13:50, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
I am wondering if this statement should be taken out.
This statement has nothing to do with the body of the article about the Lemba. Any thoughts?-- EhavEliyahu 16:01, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
Maybe a figure should be given as to the exact number of Lemba. Also whether or not many converted to Christianity following the arrivial of Baptist Missionaries in the 19th Century.
What country is their synagogue in? — Reinyday, 00:42, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
Curious to this, as ethiopian jews had to. 72.70.69.211 18:47, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
intresting point, so why would they have to convert? who is a Jew clearly accomodates them.-- Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ 10:16, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
Jews (Hebrew: יְהוּדִים, Yehudim; Yiddish: ייִדן, Yidn)[3] are members of the Jewish people, an ethnic group originating in the Israelites of the ancient Middle East. Does this def not fit them? genetically related to the house of Israel-- Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ 23:55, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
The main reason that the Lemba, and other like them would not be considered legally Jewish is because of the following reasons. (This would only apply if the Lemba desire to rejoin the Jewish fold.)
If all of these events take place, as they are claimed to have happened in the case of the Lemba several hundred years ago, it means is the following.
Other Jewish communities maintined the following things that kept them legally Jewish.
This section really needs a clean up by those with the knowledge. Particularly sentences like "One of them wants to start a Kibbutz".
The Lemba case has raised some very interesting issues, e.g. about the use of history and genetics to support (or question) claims to religious affiliation, and this article should be developed to reflect this. As a quick google will show, this case is being debated by specialists in different fields. This is not reflected in the article as currently written. It is also thin on the basic ethnographic etc. background to the Lemba. I can see a number of relevant papers in the older academic literature (before the recent genetic research), including analysis of attempts to "reconvert" Lemba in Zimbabwe to Islam! Zahir Mgeni 20:41, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
To above author: Regardless of your own personal beliefs and prejudices, the Lemba are accepted as Jewish among the Sephardic populations of Israel. Further, "older research" NEVER takes precedence over newer, more recent and more accurate research...where did you go to school?! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.82.238.95 ( talk) 20:11, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
For dedicated editors of this page: The "Related Groups" info was removed from all {{ Infobox Ethnic group}} infoboxes. Comments may be left on the Ethnic groups talk page. Ling.Nut 23:22, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
Why is there no mention of Rabbinic scholarly views on this subject? Most rabbinic scholars would consider the scholars quoted in this article to be complete idiots as the Rabbi Ishmael in the mishnah is recorded to say the people of Israel (wording used specificity refers to all of Israel and not just Judah) are not white or black but rather like an olive. He isn't the only source for this. But this is something they learned at 10 years of age. If the Lemba are indeed Jewish their claim of superiority is no greater than white Jews. The claim of white Jews is greater because we know why they are white (intermarriage with the Khazars and other converts). Likewise we know why the Ethiopian Beta Israel are black.
I am rather new to this subject but when do they claim to of left Sena ("Yemen")? 124.170.192.23 21:23, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
Airing on the History Channel, did genetic testing on the Lemba, and PROVED that they ARE the lost tribe. It should be mentioned. Cra sh U nderride 01:47, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
You write, "the reason for the tradition in the first place was simply because (as everyone knows) eating undercooked pork can be dangerous" -- I don't know if what "everyone knows" is that eating undercooked pork is dangerous, or that this is the -- THE -- reason for the prohibition on pork. But I have to disagree that health reasons are the basis for this rule of kashrut, or at least that there is agreement on the point. In fact, Wikipedia's article on Kashrut states, "The claim that the laws have a hygiene/health purpose has ... fallen out of favour among Biblical scholars ..." Of course, the first line of explanation is that the prohibition appears in the Torah. But for those who do not believe in literal divine authorship of the Torah, of course, that is just the beginning of the inquiry; if the prohibition was created by humans, what was THEIR reason for it? I have heard many theories for the basis, including health reasons, but not limited to them. I am inclined to doubt that that was the reason, in fact. I am aware of no evidence (although I have often heard the "everyone knows" assumption) that health concerns were "simply" the reason for the prohibition on pork. Furthermore, why just pork, not beef and certainly chicken? Why not all undercooked meat? Other health concerns that were presumably known in the ancient world, such as eating spoiled or poisonous foods, don't make it into the kashrut code, while things that have nothing to do with health concerns do. I think this is one of those things that "everyone knows" that ... well ... we don't, really. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.153.165.165 ( talk) 22:05, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
There was another Lemba documentary that aired today as part of the Myth Hunters series, shown on the American Heroes channel. A significant point to me is that they determined 7 Lemba ancestors had come from Yemen in Medieval times. There was no real indication that the Yemenites had ancestry in Palestine or that there were more than 7 of them. Imagine how many Bantu ancestors there have been in 600 years, and the number is staggering, at least several hundred thousand but depending on how many distant cousins intermarried. So I believe it would be reasonable to call the Judaism of the Lemba no more than a cultural influence. Ramseyman ( talk) 15:23, 26 June 2016 (UTC)
I am restoring the previous text (eg as of 16 April 2008),
rather than the current
Since 34.2% of men in the Yemen have at least a 5/6 match for the 6-marker CMH [1], but turn out when you look at more Y-STR markers to not in fact be closely related to CMH Ashkenazi Jews, it cannot be safely determined on the basis of only six markers whether the Lemba are more likely to have acquired their "semitic" Y-chromosomes from Jews or from Yemenis. Jheald ( talk) 12:52, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
Exactly! Why does this article not mention the possibilty that the presence of certain genetic markers common to people in the middle east may be the result of intermixing between arab slave traders and elements of local populations? Since Arab slavers are historically documented along the whole of the east coast of Africa it seems far more likely an origin for these markers than some mythological Jewish connection - which seems far more likley to be the result of an invented genealogy to 'elevate' the position of the Lemba people when confronted with white Europeans. By saying they were of Jewish origin rather than the result of mixing between Arab slavers and locals would obviously improve their standing. Since the first Christians arrived in southern Africa around 1600 there has been plenty of time for the Lemba to scoure the bible for 'traditions'. I wouldn't be surprised if at some future date archeological research finds the remains of an Arab slave trading centre in the middle of Lemba territory.
Furthermore, it is very interesting that the genetic research involves only Y chromosomes (passed on by men only - for instance a male Arab slave trader) and not mitochondrial DNA passed on only by women. I'll bet that if mDNA markers common in Jews are sought for in the Lemba, their presence will conspicuous in its absence! 1812ahill ( talk) 13:50, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
This may be of interest? - if only for the references? >> ... DLMcN
>>
Another tribe which claims responsibility for Great Zimbabwe is the Lemba - a possibility which has been supported in varying degrees by several writers [41][42][43][44][45]. Thus, Gayre suggests that the Shona artefacts which were found in the various ruins, were placed there only after they conquered the country and drove out or absorbed the previous inhabitants [46]; the ones who remained would have passed some of their skills and knowledge to the invaders. To advance their argument, Dr Gayre and Professor Murdock both report that in the early 20th century, neighbouring tribes regarded the South African Lemba as exceptionally skilled metal workers [41][43][47][48][49]; Gayre also mentions that those Lemba had a particular aptitude for mining, smelting and building in stone [46].
Maintaining that those Lemba had originally fled southwards from the Masvingo area, Gayre emphasised that their female ancestry must have contained a large MaKaranga element, judging by the fact that the old Lemba language was a dialect of Karanga [46][47][50].
Recent DNA tests reveal that many Lemba possess marked Semitic features in their Y-chromosomes – i.e., passed through their male ancestral line [51][32]. Particularly startling is the fact that their priests still carry the Cohen Modal Haplotype [52].
Gayre describes the Lemba oral tradition that their male forebears came by boat (from a country to the north which boasted large cities) to obtain gold [46][47][48][50].
Other Lemba Semitic characteristics highlighted by Gayre or Murdock are – first, their dietary laws and customs, which have a lot in common with the Mosaic code [41][43][46][47][48][49][53] – second, the fact that many members of that community have Semitic-sounding names [46][47][50] – and finally, a reputation as the masters and originators of the art of circumcision which the Lemba enjoyed among surrounding tribes [46][48][47][49].
Thus, the discovery of models of male circumcised organs in some of the ancient ruins, is interpreted by Gayre as evidence of a direct link between the Lemba and Ancient Zimbabwe [46]. In addition, Gayre, Layland, Hall and Murdock all regard it as significant that the Lemba buried their dead in an extended rather than a crouched position – i.e., in the same style as in certain Zimbabwean graves, where gold jewellery confirmed their association with the ancient civilization [46][44][43][54].
41. Gayre, R. - 'The Lembas and Vendas of Vendaland'; The Mankind Quarterly vol. VIII (Edinburgh, 1967), pp. 3-15.
42. Gayre, R. - 'Some further notes on the Lembas'; The Mankind Quarterly vol. XI (1970), pp. 58-60.
43. Murdock, G.P. – 'Africa: its peoples and their culture history'; McGraw Hill, New York, 1959; see pp. 387 and 204 et seq.
44. Hall, R.N. & Neal, W.G. - 'The ancient ruins of Rhodesia'; Methuen, London, 1902; see pp. 95, 101-106, 126.
45. R. Wessman - 'The BaWenda of the Spelonken'; The African World, London, 1908; see pp. 129-132.
46. Gayre, R. - 'The origin of the Zimbabwean civilization'; Galaxie Press, Zimbabwe, 1972.
47. Hammond Tooke, W.D. - 'The Bantu-speaking peoples of southern Africa'; Routledge and Kegan Paul, London, 1974 (originally 1937); see pp. 81-84 and 115-116. [Contribution by N.J. van Warmelo]. Similar material appears in Schapera, I. - 'The Bantu-speaking tribes of southern Africa'; Routledge and Sons, London, 1937, and Maskew Miller, Capetown, 1966, see pp. 65-66, 153, 257, 276.
48. Junod, H.A. - 'The life of a South African tribe', vol. I: - 'Social life'; MacMillan, London, 1927; see pp.72-73, 94.
49. Jaques, A.A. - 'Notes on the Lemba Tribe of the Northern Transvaal'; Anthropos vol. XXVI (1931), pp. 245-251; see pp. 247, 249.
50. van Warmelo, N.J. - 'Zur Sprache und Herkunft der Lemba'; Hamburger Beiträge zur Afrika-Kunde Bd. 5 (1966), pp. 273-283; Deutsches Institut für Afrika-Forschung; see pp. 273, 279, 281-282.
51. Parfitt, T. - 'Journey to the vanished city'; St. Martin's Press, New York, 1992 (also published by Phoenix). Discussed in a long article on p.22 of The Times (UK) on 10th March 1999.
52. Thomas, M.G., Parfitt, T. et al. - 'Y Chromosomes Traveling South: The Cohen Modal Haplotype and the Origins of the Lemba - the "Black Jews of Southern Africa"; Amer. J. Human Genetics vol. 66 (2000), pp. 674-686.
53. van Warmelo, N.J. - 'The copper miners of Musina and the early history of the Zoutpansberg'; Ethnological Publications no. VIII (1940), Dept. of Native Affairs, South Africa; see pp. 52-53, 63-67.
54. Layland, E. – Appendix I of 'The origin of the Zimbabwean civilization'; Galaxie Press, Zimbabwe, 1972; see p.230.
However, a ‘cyber-war’ then broke out whereby my contribution was deleted, then restored by Wikipedia, then deleted again by the same disruptive individual … That happened three times!
So Wikipedia decided to compromise by modifying and toning down my above text.
http://DLMcN.com/anczimb.html is an attempt to summarise the evidence. 83.230.207.132 ( talk) 10:47, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
If we are going to mention Gayre, and perhaps we should, it should be in a section on racist perspectives. It is not NPOV to ignore Gayre's racism, he's the guy who "In his evidence to the court ...described blacks as being "feckless" and he maintained that scientific evidence showed that blacks "prefer their leisure to the dynamism which the white and yellow races show." Zimbabwe before 1900 By D. N. Beach has a line "A long line of racist works trying to prove otherwise [that is, that GZ wasn't built by blacks], culminating in R Gayre's 'The Origin of the Zimbabwean Civilization'. Garlake doesn't just dismiss Gayre, he used the phrase 'worthless polemic'. In any case, Gayre seems to have credited GZ's original builders as being from the Mediterranean area and Arabia.
Maybe we should quote Parfitt "It is worth noting tnat in relatively recent times white racists found this tradition appealing: the Scottish laird Gayre of Gayre and Nigg was the editor of a racist journal called Mankind Quarterly. In 1967 he wrote a short article in which he stressed the connection of the Lemba with the Great Zimbabwe and in 1972 wrote a book, published in Rhodesia and believed by some to have been commissioned by the Rhodesian Government which claimed that the Lemba had been involved in the Great Zimbabwe construction. He further argued that the Lemba had Jewish cultural and genetic traits and that their 'Armenoid' genes must have been acquired from Judaized Sabeans who, he maintained, had serried in the area thousands of years ago. The book's clear objective was to show that black people had never been capable of of building in stone or of governing themselves. There is nor the slightest evidence that 'Sabeans' or any other Middle Eastern people settled in the area thousands of years ago - and there is every evidence that Great Zimbabwe was built something less than a thousand years ago." Dougweller ( talk) 14:27, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
As it stands this is not just unsourced, it's original research. We need sources relating this to the Lemba. Dougweller ( talk) 13:09, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
Is there a reliable source for the suggestion that Israel has given the Lemba the right of return? Thanks. Dougweller ( talk) 20:20, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
Gideon Shimoni, apparently the senior lecturer in the Hebrew University's Institute of Contemporary Jewry and "incumbent of the Shlomo Argov Chair in Israel-Diaspora Relations", has covered the Lembas' status as Jews in his book Community and conscience: the Jews in apartheid South Africa. He talks about the Lemba pages 178-180. You can read this at google books. This may help fix up sourcing problems in that section. Factsontheground ( talk) 01:09, 13 March 2010 (UTC)
It is incorrect of DougWeller to imply that >Because Gayre was a racialist – it follows that his line of reasoning proposing a Semitic origin for Great Zimbabwe, is untenable.< That^ italicised piece between the arrows > < is a non sequitur; it is flawed logic. Admittedly, we have perhaps not been putting it quite as bluntly and directly as that – but it is always better to avoid ad hominem remarks and criticisms.
Here, it is relevant to focus once again on the fact that many of the key points made by Gayre are supported by observations recorded – long before he wrote his book – by van Warmelo, Junod, and others: i.e., by scholars who were not discussing the origins of Great Zimbabwe. This provides a much fairer judgment than Garlake’s description of the work as “worthless polemic”. Thus, I am inclined to doubt whether Garlake ever read and studied Gayre’s text properly.
Certainly, I am not maintaining that Gayre’s thesis has been demonstrated conclusively. He does, however, raise questions which are worth looking at. DLMcN ( talk) 09:44, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
I see this hasn't been discussed before. I don't think it's appropriate in this article. Even if they have some Semitic ancestry, that doesn't make them Jewish, and the other evidence is no more conclusive. Dougweller ( talk) 09:17, 20 June 2010 (UTC)
So in what countries exactly are these 70,000 Lemba in? Bezuidenhout ( talk) 16:51, 13 August 2010 (UTC)
DougWeller - I noticed your reversion of 9th July. The earlier edit of that date was not actually mine, but Spurdle and Jenkins may offer enough evidence to qualify as "significant"? - see http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8900243 ... What is your particular threshold, to justify using the word "significant"?
In their Abstract, Spurdle and Jenkins state: The results suggest that > or = 50% of the Lemba Y chromosomes are Semitic in origin, approximately 40% are Negroid, and the ancestry of the remainder cannot be resolved. [Am. J. Hum. Genet. 1996 Nov;59(5):1126-33...The origins of the Lemba "Black Jews" of southern Africa: evidence from p12F2 and other Y-chromosome markers].-- DLMcN ( talk) 06:28, 20 July 2011 (UTC)-- DLMcN ( talk) 06:39, 20 July 2011 (UTC)
References
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So it seems user:74.103.28.244 is back to his/her nonsense. Why has this not been summarily deleted or reverted? The user has a substantial history of borderline vandalism of Jewish or purportedly-Jewish articles. Someone with more authority please get rid of this - I got some weird error when I tried to revert the article. Myrkkyhammas ( talk) 13:53, 16 September 2011 (UTC)
Just so that it's clear: Yemenite Jews are not genetically identical to their Arab neighbors. Also, there are definitely distinctly Jewish(ish) modal haplotypes that happen to occur in other populations (via historical intermarriage). Myrkkyhammas ( talk) 21:20, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
Tudor Parfitt identified the Cohen Modal Haplotype in a number of Lemba - surely we could regard that as "Jewish DNA"? -- DLMcN ( talk) 08:21, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
Lomba is the Portuguese word for hill — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.20.149.141 ( talk) 06:52, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
This article reads, to me, like an article on "Venus came from Jupiter" would, with Tudor Parfitt playing the role of Immanuel Velikovsky. His name appears a lot - almost each time in full, with his job, and linked to his Wiki article. On the other hand when Tooke is mentioned - who disagrees with Parfitt - his name is never linked. The statement "By contrast, the lead anthropologist in Zimbabwe firmly places them among African peoples, ignoring the DNA evidence," which sounds important, is supported by a reference to something by Parfitt, which explains the POV "ignoring the DNA evidence". The section on the "Sacred Ngoma" really does sound like an episode of The History Channel, or perhaps The Discovery Channel. The problem with this for me is that it makes it difficult to tell if Parfitt's theories are reasonable and maybe ground-breaking, or idiosyncratic. Let's hear from "the lead anthropologist in Zimbabwe" himself or herself. -- Richardson mcphillips ( talk) 14:43, 31 May 2015 (UTC)
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For editors interested, there's an RfC currently being held: Should sections on genetics be removed from pages on ethnic groups?. As this will almost certainly result in the removal of the "DNA testing" section from this article, I'd encourage any contributors to voice their opinions there. -- Katangais (talk) 20:04, 30 April 2016 (UTC)
Regarding the Parfitt reference at the end of the lede (Tudor Parfitt'[sic] Remarkable Quest, in which he tries to prove that the Lemba are one of the ten lost tribes of Israel):
Why are we accepting TV documentaries seeking to prove biblical stories as fact to sell a product as a reliable source? Encyclopedias are not considered reliable sources, so why is Parfitt on PBS TV considered reliable? Who paid for the emeritus professor's jaunt around the world? Why did he not consider more thoroughly arguments against his hypothesis?
As is stands, this article could do with a criticism section. A few obvious ones (basic anthropology) spring to mind ( WP:NOR on my part noted).
1: In light of biblical dating, are there any other cultures in the world that have managed to maintain an oral tradition for 2500 years?
2: Why (as pointed out in the article) is the Lemba Abrahamic tradition almost exclusively Arabic in its use of language?
3: Why would a 'lost tribe' consisting of 7 proselytising men and no women only stop after sailing 7000 miles from their point of origin and then travel many miles inland?
4: The Lemba speak a Bantu language. The Bantu people/culture only appeared in southern Africa well after the beginning of the CE. Before that the area was inhabited by the ancestors of the current Khoi-San linguistic/ethnic group. Are we to believe that the precursor population gave up their language and culture, intermarried with the more technologically advanced Bantu, yet somehow managed to convert a tiny time displaced group of Bantu conquerors to their own religion and then survive as an isolate for 2500 years?
I suggest removing the current TV show references to Parfitt or at least adding Template:Refimprove. Anyone object? 1812ahill ( talk) 23:27, 13 February 2017 (UTC)
I think that the sentence "Both Arabs and Jews share this DNA, but the Cohen Modal Haplotype, an indicator of Jewish ancestry, has been found among the males of one leadership clan at rates even higher than in the general Jewish population." sourced to a comment made 16 years ago by Parfitt, misrepresents the current thinking.
For instance, "Mitochondrial and Y chromosome haplotype motifs as diagnostic markers of Jewish ancestry: a reconsideration" [3] "In conclusion, while the observed distribution of sub-clades of haplotypes at mitochondrial and Y chromosome non-recombinant genomes might be compatible with founder events in recent times at the origin of Jewish groups as Cohenite, Levite, Ashkenazite, the overall substantial polyphyletism as well as their systematic occurrence in non-Jewish groups highlights the lack of support for using them either as markers of Jewish ancestry or Biblical tales."
Here in Genomics and Society: Ethical, Legal, Cultural and Socioeconomic Implications I find "genetic markers being used. When blood groups and scrum protein markers were used, the Lemba were indistinguishable from the neighbors among whom they lived; the same was true for mitochondrial DNA which represented the input of females in their gene pool. However, the Y chromosomes, which represented their history through male contributions, showed the link to non-African ancestors. When trying to elucidate the most likely geographic region of origin of the non-African Y chromosomes in the Lemba, the best that could be done was to narrow it to the Middle Eastern region. While no evidence ol the CMH was found in the higher resolution study, no inferences can be made about their claims about being Jewish—all that can be said is the lineage commonly associated with the Cohanim is not found in the Lemba."
And that's based in part on "Lemba origins revisited: Tracing the ancestry of Y chromosomes in South African and Zimbabwean Lemba" SAMJ, S. Afr. med. j. vol.103 n.12 Cape Town Dec. 2013 [4] "CONCLUSIONS: While it was not possible to trace unequivocally the origins of the non-African Y chromosomes in the Lemba and Remba, this study does not support the earlier claims of their Jewish genetic heritage." Doug Weller talk 12:40, 14 February 2017 (UTC)
Parfitt had Christian informants. You'd never know from the article that many, perhaps most are Christian, a few are Muslim. I'll try to work on this tomorrow. Doug Weller talk 22:02, 20 February 2017 (UTC).
I've contradictory claims on whether they claim in their traditions to have fled the Babylon or Roman Captivity. Parfitt seems to proper the Babylonian estimate when he talks about it.
But how long have they been Christians? Do they claim to have been so since before they left Jerusalem?-- JaredMithrandir ( talk) 23:18, 19 April 2018 (UTC)
There is no definite and/or academic source which establishes the Lemba as a jewish population, or a population with jewish ancestry and/or religio-cultural practices without at least presenting it as only a possibility e.g Magdel Le Roux's
"The Lemba: A lost tribe of Israel in Southern Africa? (1998)", Tudor Parfit's works, Himla Soodyal et al. etc… Therefore it is seems logical to exclude this notion when discuss about the lemba objectively such as in an introductory clause. Sanali.SD ( talk) 10:31, 15 December 2023 (UTC)
I was ok with this source [5] until noting that she says " law. The bene Israel of western India (who probably came to Judaism via Islam" which is not even hinted at in Bene Israel. Doug Weller talk 08:05, 18 May 2024 (UTC)
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This page should be tidied up to resemble articles on other groups like the Beta Israel or the Abayudaya. Granted this group has genetic links with most of the world's Jewery however they also have genetic relations to their African neighbours, thus are a distinct ethnic group and this page deserves to classify them as such. Why is the Judaism tag on the right hand side when this group is not considered to be religiously Jewish? Also what languages do they speak? I'd imagine something like Shona, Ndebele or Venda. Have any of them learned Hebrew? Also this article contains nothing about countries with present populations, or about the current status of the group. I know I have raised of issues but I think this article could benefit from this upgrade.
I removed the Judaism tag on the right hand side, given that they Lemba aren't religiously or officially Jewish(yet) and thus it seems innapropriate to keep it. However it would be more appropriate to add a tag for an ethnic group, which is what the Lemba seem to be to me. Furthermore, there seems to be few hard statistics about the group. Olockers 13:50, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
I am wondering if this statement should be taken out.
This statement has nothing to do with the body of the article about the Lemba. Any thoughts?-- EhavEliyahu 16:01, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
Maybe a figure should be given as to the exact number of Lemba. Also whether or not many converted to Christianity following the arrivial of Baptist Missionaries in the 19th Century.
What country is their synagogue in? — Reinyday, 00:42, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
Curious to this, as ethiopian jews had to. 72.70.69.211 18:47, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
intresting point, so why would they have to convert? who is a Jew clearly accomodates them.-- Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ 10:16, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
Jews (Hebrew: יְהוּדִים, Yehudim; Yiddish: ייִדן, Yidn)[3] are members of the Jewish people, an ethnic group originating in the Israelites of the ancient Middle East. Does this def not fit them? genetically related to the house of Israel-- Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ 23:55, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
The main reason that the Lemba, and other like them would not be considered legally Jewish is because of the following reasons. (This would only apply if the Lemba desire to rejoin the Jewish fold.)
If all of these events take place, as they are claimed to have happened in the case of the Lemba several hundred years ago, it means is the following.
Other Jewish communities maintined the following things that kept them legally Jewish.
This section really needs a clean up by those with the knowledge. Particularly sentences like "One of them wants to start a Kibbutz".
The Lemba case has raised some very interesting issues, e.g. about the use of history and genetics to support (or question) claims to religious affiliation, and this article should be developed to reflect this. As a quick google will show, this case is being debated by specialists in different fields. This is not reflected in the article as currently written. It is also thin on the basic ethnographic etc. background to the Lemba. I can see a number of relevant papers in the older academic literature (before the recent genetic research), including analysis of attempts to "reconvert" Lemba in Zimbabwe to Islam! Zahir Mgeni 20:41, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
To above author: Regardless of your own personal beliefs and prejudices, the Lemba are accepted as Jewish among the Sephardic populations of Israel. Further, "older research" NEVER takes precedence over newer, more recent and more accurate research...where did you go to school?! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.82.238.95 ( talk) 20:11, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
For dedicated editors of this page: The "Related Groups" info was removed from all {{ Infobox Ethnic group}} infoboxes. Comments may be left on the Ethnic groups talk page. Ling.Nut 23:22, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
Why is there no mention of Rabbinic scholarly views on this subject? Most rabbinic scholars would consider the scholars quoted in this article to be complete idiots as the Rabbi Ishmael in the mishnah is recorded to say the people of Israel (wording used specificity refers to all of Israel and not just Judah) are not white or black but rather like an olive. He isn't the only source for this. But this is something they learned at 10 years of age. If the Lemba are indeed Jewish their claim of superiority is no greater than white Jews. The claim of white Jews is greater because we know why they are white (intermarriage with the Khazars and other converts). Likewise we know why the Ethiopian Beta Israel are black.
I am rather new to this subject but when do they claim to of left Sena ("Yemen")? 124.170.192.23 21:23, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
Airing on the History Channel, did genetic testing on the Lemba, and PROVED that they ARE the lost tribe. It should be mentioned. Cra sh U nderride 01:47, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
You write, "the reason for the tradition in the first place was simply because (as everyone knows) eating undercooked pork can be dangerous" -- I don't know if what "everyone knows" is that eating undercooked pork is dangerous, or that this is the -- THE -- reason for the prohibition on pork. But I have to disagree that health reasons are the basis for this rule of kashrut, or at least that there is agreement on the point. In fact, Wikipedia's article on Kashrut states, "The claim that the laws have a hygiene/health purpose has ... fallen out of favour among Biblical scholars ..." Of course, the first line of explanation is that the prohibition appears in the Torah. But for those who do not believe in literal divine authorship of the Torah, of course, that is just the beginning of the inquiry; if the prohibition was created by humans, what was THEIR reason for it? I have heard many theories for the basis, including health reasons, but not limited to them. I am inclined to doubt that that was the reason, in fact. I am aware of no evidence (although I have often heard the "everyone knows" assumption) that health concerns were "simply" the reason for the prohibition on pork. Furthermore, why just pork, not beef and certainly chicken? Why not all undercooked meat? Other health concerns that were presumably known in the ancient world, such as eating spoiled or poisonous foods, don't make it into the kashrut code, while things that have nothing to do with health concerns do. I think this is one of those things that "everyone knows" that ... well ... we don't, really. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.153.165.165 ( talk) 22:05, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
There was another Lemba documentary that aired today as part of the Myth Hunters series, shown on the American Heroes channel. A significant point to me is that they determined 7 Lemba ancestors had come from Yemen in Medieval times. There was no real indication that the Yemenites had ancestry in Palestine or that there were more than 7 of them. Imagine how many Bantu ancestors there have been in 600 years, and the number is staggering, at least several hundred thousand but depending on how many distant cousins intermarried. So I believe it would be reasonable to call the Judaism of the Lemba no more than a cultural influence. Ramseyman ( talk) 15:23, 26 June 2016 (UTC)
I am restoring the previous text (eg as of 16 April 2008),
rather than the current
Since 34.2% of men in the Yemen have at least a 5/6 match for the 6-marker CMH [1], but turn out when you look at more Y-STR markers to not in fact be closely related to CMH Ashkenazi Jews, it cannot be safely determined on the basis of only six markers whether the Lemba are more likely to have acquired their "semitic" Y-chromosomes from Jews or from Yemenis. Jheald ( talk) 12:52, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
Exactly! Why does this article not mention the possibilty that the presence of certain genetic markers common to people in the middle east may be the result of intermixing between arab slave traders and elements of local populations? Since Arab slavers are historically documented along the whole of the east coast of Africa it seems far more likely an origin for these markers than some mythological Jewish connection - which seems far more likley to be the result of an invented genealogy to 'elevate' the position of the Lemba people when confronted with white Europeans. By saying they were of Jewish origin rather than the result of mixing between Arab slavers and locals would obviously improve their standing. Since the first Christians arrived in southern Africa around 1600 there has been plenty of time for the Lemba to scoure the bible for 'traditions'. I wouldn't be surprised if at some future date archeological research finds the remains of an Arab slave trading centre in the middle of Lemba territory.
Furthermore, it is very interesting that the genetic research involves only Y chromosomes (passed on by men only - for instance a male Arab slave trader) and not mitochondrial DNA passed on only by women. I'll bet that if mDNA markers common in Jews are sought for in the Lemba, their presence will conspicuous in its absence! 1812ahill ( talk) 13:50, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
This may be of interest? - if only for the references? >> ... DLMcN
>>
Another tribe which claims responsibility for Great Zimbabwe is the Lemba - a possibility which has been supported in varying degrees by several writers [41][42][43][44][45]. Thus, Gayre suggests that the Shona artefacts which were found in the various ruins, were placed there only after they conquered the country and drove out or absorbed the previous inhabitants [46]; the ones who remained would have passed some of their skills and knowledge to the invaders. To advance their argument, Dr Gayre and Professor Murdock both report that in the early 20th century, neighbouring tribes regarded the South African Lemba as exceptionally skilled metal workers [41][43][47][48][49]; Gayre also mentions that those Lemba had a particular aptitude for mining, smelting and building in stone [46].
Maintaining that those Lemba had originally fled southwards from the Masvingo area, Gayre emphasised that their female ancestry must have contained a large MaKaranga element, judging by the fact that the old Lemba language was a dialect of Karanga [46][47][50].
Recent DNA tests reveal that many Lemba possess marked Semitic features in their Y-chromosomes – i.e., passed through their male ancestral line [51][32]. Particularly startling is the fact that their priests still carry the Cohen Modal Haplotype [52].
Gayre describes the Lemba oral tradition that their male forebears came by boat (from a country to the north which boasted large cities) to obtain gold [46][47][48][50].
Other Lemba Semitic characteristics highlighted by Gayre or Murdock are – first, their dietary laws and customs, which have a lot in common with the Mosaic code [41][43][46][47][48][49][53] – second, the fact that many members of that community have Semitic-sounding names [46][47][50] – and finally, a reputation as the masters and originators of the art of circumcision which the Lemba enjoyed among surrounding tribes [46][48][47][49].
Thus, the discovery of models of male circumcised organs in some of the ancient ruins, is interpreted by Gayre as evidence of a direct link between the Lemba and Ancient Zimbabwe [46]. In addition, Gayre, Layland, Hall and Murdock all regard it as significant that the Lemba buried their dead in an extended rather than a crouched position – i.e., in the same style as in certain Zimbabwean graves, where gold jewellery confirmed their association with the ancient civilization [46][44][43][54].
41. Gayre, R. - 'The Lembas and Vendas of Vendaland'; The Mankind Quarterly vol. VIII (Edinburgh, 1967), pp. 3-15.
42. Gayre, R. - 'Some further notes on the Lembas'; The Mankind Quarterly vol. XI (1970), pp. 58-60.
43. Murdock, G.P. – 'Africa: its peoples and their culture history'; McGraw Hill, New York, 1959; see pp. 387 and 204 et seq.
44. Hall, R.N. & Neal, W.G. - 'The ancient ruins of Rhodesia'; Methuen, London, 1902; see pp. 95, 101-106, 126.
45. R. Wessman - 'The BaWenda of the Spelonken'; The African World, London, 1908; see pp. 129-132.
46. Gayre, R. - 'The origin of the Zimbabwean civilization'; Galaxie Press, Zimbabwe, 1972.
47. Hammond Tooke, W.D. - 'The Bantu-speaking peoples of southern Africa'; Routledge and Kegan Paul, London, 1974 (originally 1937); see pp. 81-84 and 115-116. [Contribution by N.J. van Warmelo]. Similar material appears in Schapera, I. - 'The Bantu-speaking tribes of southern Africa'; Routledge and Sons, London, 1937, and Maskew Miller, Capetown, 1966, see pp. 65-66, 153, 257, 276.
48. Junod, H.A. - 'The life of a South African tribe', vol. I: - 'Social life'; MacMillan, London, 1927; see pp.72-73, 94.
49. Jaques, A.A. - 'Notes on the Lemba Tribe of the Northern Transvaal'; Anthropos vol. XXVI (1931), pp. 245-251; see pp. 247, 249.
50. van Warmelo, N.J. - 'Zur Sprache und Herkunft der Lemba'; Hamburger Beiträge zur Afrika-Kunde Bd. 5 (1966), pp. 273-283; Deutsches Institut für Afrika-Forschung; see pp. 273, 279, 281-282.
51. Parfitt, T. - 'Journey to the vanished city'; St. Martin's Press, New York, 1992 (also published by Phoenix). Discussed in a long article on p.22 of The Times (UK) on 10th March 1999.
52. Thomas, M.G., Parfitt, T. et al. - 'Y Chromosomes Traveling South: The Cohen Modal Haplotype and the Origins of the Lemba - the "Black Jews of Southern Africa"; Amer. J. Human Genetics vol. 66 (2000), pp. 674-686.
53. van Warmelo, N.J. - 'The copper miners of Musina and the early history of the Zoutpansberg'; Ethnological Publications no. VIII (1940), Dept. of Native Affairs, South Africa; see pp. 52-53, 63-67.
54. Layland, E. – Appendix I of 'The origin of the Zimbabwean civilization'; Galaxie Press, Zimbabwe, 1972; see p.230.
However, a ‘cyber-war’ then broke out whereby my contribution was deleted, then restored by Wikipedia, then deleted again by the same disruptive individual … That happened three times!
So Wikipedia decided to compromise by modifying and toning down my above text.
http://DLMcN.com/anczimb.html is an attempt to summarise the evidence. 83.230.207.132 ( talk) 10:47, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
If we are going to mention Gayre, and perhaps we should, it should be in a section on racist perspectives. It is not NPOV to ignore Gayre's racism, he's the guy who "In his evidence to the court ...described blacks as being "feckless" and he maintained that scientific evidence showed that blacks "prefer their leisure to the dynamism which the white and yellow races show." Zimbabwe before 1900 By D. N. Beach has a line "A long line of racist works trying to prove otherwise [that is, that GZ wasn't built by blacks], culminating in R Gayre's 'The Origin of the Zimbabwean Civilization'. Garlake doesn't just dismiss Gayre, he used the phrase 'worthless polemic'. In any case, Gayre seems to have credited GZ's original builders as being from the Mediterranean area and Arabia.
Maybe we should quote Parfitt "It is worth noting tnat in relatively recent times white racists found this tradition appealing: the Scottish laird Gayre of Gayre and Nigg was the editor of a racist journal called Mankind Quarterly. In 1967 he wrote a short article in which he stressed the connection of the Lemba with the Great Zimbabwe and in 1972 wrote a book, published in Rhodesia and believed by some to have been commissioned by the Rhodesian Government which claimed that the Lemba had been involved in the Great Zimbabwe construction. He further argued that the Lemba had Jewish cultural and genetic traits and that their 'Armenoid' genes must have been acquired from Judaized Sabeans who, he maintained, had serried in the area thousands of years ago. The book's clear objective was to show that black people had never been capable of of building in stone or of governing themselves. There is nor the slightest evidence that 'Sabeans' or any other Middle Eastern people settled in the area thousands of years ago - and there is every evidence that Great Zimbabwe was built something less than a thousand years ago." Dougweller ( talk) 14:27, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
As it stands this is not just unsourced, it's original research. We need sources relating this to the Lemba. Dougweller ( talk) 13:09, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
Is there a reliable source for the suggestion that Israel has given the Lemba the right of return? Thanks. Dougweller ( talk) 20:20, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
Gideon Shimoni, apparently the senior lecturer in the Hebrew University's Institute of Contemporary Jewry and "incumbent of the Shlomo Argov Chair in Israel-Diaspora Relations", has covered the Lembas' status as Jews in his book Community and conscience: the Jews in apartheid South Africa. He talks about the Lemba pages 178-180. You can read this at google books. This may help fix up sourcing problems in that section. Factsontheground ( talk) 01:09, 13 March 2010 (UTC)
It is incorrect of DougWeller to imply that >Because Gayre was a racialist – it follows that his line of reasoning proposing a Semitic origin for Great Zimbabwe, is untenable.< That^ italicised piece between the arrows > < is a non sequitur; it is flawed logic. Admittedly, we have perhaps not been putting it quite as bluntly and directly as that – but it is always better to avoid ad hominem remarks and criticisms.
Here, it is relevant to focus once again on the fact that many of the key points made by Gayre are supported by observations recorded – long before he wrote his book – by van Warmelo, Junod, and others: i.e., by scholars who were not discussing the origins of Great Zimbabwe. This provides a much fairer judgment than Garlake’s description of the work as “worthless polemic”. Thus, I am inclined to doubt whether Garlake ever read and studied Gayre’s text properly.
Certainly, I am not maintaining that Gayre’s thesis has been demonstrated conclusively. He does, however, raise questions which are worth looking at. DLMcN ( talk) 09:44, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
I see this hasn't been discussed before. I don't think it's appropriate in this article. Even if they have some Semitic ancestry, that doesn't make them Jewish, and the other evidence is no more conclusive. Dougweller ( talk) 09:17, 20 June 2010 (UTC)
So in what countries exactly are these 70,000 Lemba in? Bezuidenhout ( talk) 16:51, 13 August 2010 (UTC)
DougWeller - I noticed your reversion of 9th July. The earlier edit of that date was not actually mine, but Spurdle and Jenkins may offer enough evidence to qualify as "significant"? - see http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8900243 ... What is your particular threshold, to justify using the word "significant"?
In their Abstract, Spurdle and Jenkins state: The results suggest that > or = 50% of the Lemba Y chromosomes are Semitic in origin, approximately 40% are Negroid, and the ancestry of the remainder cannot be resolved. [Am. J. Hum. Genet. 1996 Nov;59(5):1126-33...The origins of the Lemba "Black Jews" of southern Africa: evidence from p12F2 and other Y-chromosome markers].-- DLMcN ( talk) 06:28, 20 July 2011 (UTC)-- DLMcN ( talk) 06:39, 20 July 2011 (UTC)
References
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So it seems user:74.103.28.244 is back to his/her nonsense. Why has this not been summarily deleted or reverted? The user has a substantial history of borderline vandalism of Jewish or purportedly-Jewish articles. Someone with more authority please get rid of this - I got some weird error when I tried to revert the article. Myrkkyhammas ( talk) 13:53, 16 September 2011 (UTC)
Just so that it's clear: Yemenite Jews are not genetically identical to their Arab neighbors. Also, there are definitely distinctly Jewish(ish) modal haplotypes that happen to occur in other populations (via historical intermarriage). Myrkkyhammas ( talk) 21:20, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
Tudor Parfitt identified the Cohen Modal Haplotype in a number of Lemba - surely we could regard that as "Jewish DNA"? -- DLMcN ( talk) 08:21, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
Lomba is the Portuguese word for hill — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.20.149.141 ( talk) 06:52, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
This article reads, to me, like an article on "Venus came from Jupiter" would, with Tudor Parfitt playing the role of Immanuel Velikovsky. His name appears a lot - almost each time in full, with his job, and linked to his Wiki article. On the other hand when Tooke is mentioned - who disagrees with Parfitt - his name is never linked. The statement "By contrast, the lead anthropologist in Zimbabwe firmly places them among African peoples, ignoring the DNA evidence," which sounds important, is supported by a reference to something by Parfitt, which explains the POV "ignoring the DNA evidence". The section on the "Sacred Ngoma" really does sound like an episode of The History Channel, or perhaps The Discovery Channel. The problem with this for me is that it makes it difficult to tell if Parfitt's theories are reasonable and maybe ground-breaking, or idiosyncratic. Let's hear from "the lead anthropologist in Zimbabwe" himself or herself. -- Richardson mcphillips ( talk) 14:43, 31 May 2015 (UTC)
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For editors interested, there's an RfC currently being held: Should sections on genetics be removed from pages on ethnic groups?. As this will almost certainly result in the removal of the "DNA testing" section from this article, I'd encourage any contributors to voice their opinions there. -- Katangais (talk) 20:04, 30 April 2016 (UTC)
Regarding the Parfitt reference at the end of the lede (Tudor Parfitt'[sic] Remarkable Quest, in which he tries to prove that the Lemba are one of the ten lost tribes of Israel):
Why are we accepting TV documentaries seeking to prove biblical stories as fact to sell a product as a reliable source? Encyclopedias are not considered reliable sources, so why is Parfitt on PBS TV considered reliable? Who paid for the emeritus professor's jaunt around the world? Why did he not consider more thoroughly arguments against his hypothesis?
As is stands, this article could do with a criticism section. A few obvious ones (basic anthropology) spring to mind ( WP:NOR on my part noted).
1: In light of biblical dating, are there any other cultures in the world that have managed to maintain an oral tradition for 2500 years?
2: Why (as pointed out in the article) is the Lemba Abrahamic tradition almost exclusively Arabic in its use of language?
3: Why would a 'lost tribe' consisting of 7 proselytising men and no women only stop after sailing 7000 miles from their point of origin and then travel many miles inland?
4: The Lemba speak a Bantu language. The Bantu people/culture only appeared in southern Africa well after the beginning of the CE. Before that the area was inhabited by the ancestors of the current Khoi-San linguistic/ethnic group. Are we to believe that the precursor population gave up their language and culture, intermarried with the more technologically advanced Bantu, yet somehow managed to convert a tiny time displaced group of Bantu conquerors to their own religion and then survive as an isolate for 2500 years?
I suggest removing the current TV show references to Parfitt or at least adding Template:Refimprove. Anyone object? 1812ahill ( talk) 23:27, 13 February 2017 (UTC)
I think that the sentence "Both Arabs and Jews share this DNA, but the Cohen Modal Haplotype, an indicator of Jewish ancestry, has been found among the males of one leadership clan at rates even higher than in the general Jewish population." sourced to a comment made 16 years ago by Parfitt, misrepresents the current thinking.
For instance, "Mitochondrial and Y chromosome haplotype motifs as diagnostic markers of Jewish ancestry: a reconsideration" [3] "In conclusion, while the observed distribution of sub-clades of haplotypes at mitochondrial and Y chromosome non-recombinant genomes might be compatible with founder events in recent times at the origin of Jewish groups as Cohenite, Levite, Ashkenazite, the overall substantial polyphyletism as well as their systematic occurrence in non-Jewish groups highlights the lack of support for using them either as markers of Jewish ancestry or Biblical tales."
Here in Genomics and Society: Ethical, Legal, Cultural and Socioeconomic Implications I find "genetic markers being used. When blood groups and scrum protein markers were used, the Lemba were indistinguishable from the neighbors among whom they lived; the same was true for mitochondrial DNA which represented the input of females in their gene pool. However, the Y chromosomes, which represented their history through male contributions, showed the link to non-African ancestors. When trying to elucidate the most likely geographic region of origin of the non-African Y chromosomes in the Lemba, the best that could be done was to narrow it to the Middle Eastern region. While no evidence ol the CMH was found in the higher resolution study, no inferences can be made about their claims about being Jewish—all that can be said is the lineage commonly associated with the Cohanim is not found in the Lemba."
And that's based in part on "Lemba origins revisited: Tracing the ancestry of Y chromosomes in South African and Zimbabwean Lemba" SAMJ, S. Afr. med. j. vol.103 n.12 Cape Town Dec. 2013 [4] "CONCLUSIONS: While it was not possible to trace unequivocally the origins of the non-African Y chromosomes in the Lemba and Remba, this study does not support the earlier claims of their Jewish genetic heritage." Doug Weller talk 12:40, 14 February 2017 (UTC)
Parfitt had Christian informants. You'd never know from the article that many, perhaps most are Christian, a few are Muslim. I'll try to work on this tomorrow. Doug Weller talk 22:02, 20 February 2017 (UTC).
I've contradictory claims on whether they claim in their traditions to have fled the Babylon or Roman Captivity. Parfitt seems to proper the Babylonian estimate when he talks about it.
But how long have they been Christians? Do they claim to have been so since before they left Jerusalem?-- JaredMithrandir ( talk) 23:18, 19 April 2018 (UTC)
There is no definite and/or academic source which establishes the Lemba as a jewish population, or a population with jewish ancestry and/or religio-cultural practices without at least presenting it as only a possibility e.g Magdel Le Roux's
"The Lemba: A lost tribe of Israel in Southern Africa? (1998)", Tudor Parfit's works, Himla Soodyal et al. etc… Therefore it is seems logical to exclude this notion when discuss about the lemba objectively such as in an introductory clause. Sanali.SD ( talk) 10:31, 15 December 2023 (UTC)
I was ok with this source [5] until noting that she says " law. The bene Israel of western India (who probably came to Judaism via Islam" which is not even hinted at in Bene Israel. Doug Weller talk 08:05, 18 May 2024 (UTC)