This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Legality of the Russian invasion of Ukraine article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | The
contentious topics procedure applies to this page. This page is related to Eastern Europe or the Balkans, which has been
designated as a contentious topic. Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page. |
This is a space to discuss the wording of the first sentence of the article. Originally, the sentence stated that "the apparent consensus" international law experts was that Russia violated international law. This was because I couldn't find any article specifically saying there was a consensus, but I also couldn't find any counterexamples among reputable sources in my research when I wrote the first draft of the article: every source I found agreed that Russia violated international law.
I think the current wording -- "Many international law experts" -- is a bit of an understatement based on what I have found, so I wonder if there is a better alternative. Relatedly, it was pointed out that the sources in the article skew heavily toward US and UK experts, and so it was suggested that the first sentence should read "Many Western international law experts." I have added new sources to rectify that to some degree, but more non-western sources would definitely improve the article. As of now, there is only one really non-Western source for the first sentence (The Hindu, from India).
Johnraymassoud ( talk) 16:17, 13 March 2022 (UTC)Johnraymassoud
We cannot say in wikivoice that the invasion is a "crime of aggression"; this statement needs to be attributed - e.g., "according to some international lawyers and politicians" - or at the most it could be phrased hypothetically - e.g. "...which might constitute a crime of aggression". Now the statement is followed by a citation overkill, which is always a sign of lack of verifiability and neutrality. So we need to examine each citation one by one, but I'm afraid I already know the outcome: whether the invasion was a crime or not under international law is not a matter of course; it's a highly controversial and delicate matter, as the ICC Statute requires a "manifest violation of the Charter". Besides, the ICC has no jurisdiction over Russia, so Putin will never be tried there (unless they change the rules); he might face prosecution before a national court or an ad hoc international tribunal, but that's purely speculative and falls within WP:CRYSTALBALL. Gitz ( talk) ( contribs) 00:39, 21 May 2022 (UTC)
In the section "Comparisons to Western interventions in other countries" the sources do not back the claim that the US invasion of Iraq is a false equivalence or "better" because it tried to introduce democracy, topple dictators, etc. In the New York Post article by Rich Lowry, he states that the US invasion of Iraq was different because of 9/11's impact on the American psyche, not because the US wanted to bring democracy. Also his main point is to argue that US intervention to arm Ukraine is justified because they're in a defensive war. In fact, he even seems to state that the US was just as wrong as Russia is today, for example in this quote:
If the United States launched a large-scale military intervention 20 years ago without adequately calculating the risks or understanding the political and cultural contours of the country it would occupy, it is the Russians, not the Ukrainians, the Europeans or us, who are now replicating that mistake.
The second article in the Spectator is even less in accordance with what is being cited. The main point of the article is that states always act in pursuit of their own agendas, regardless of international law or norms, including the United States. This leads the author to make the claim that the US invasion of Iraq was even worse than the invasion of Ukraine, at least in terms of impact. For example:
The frequently heard charge that Putin’s invasion of Ukraine violates ostensibly sacred international “norms” holds no water. No such norms exist — at least none that a great power will recognize as inhibiting its own freedom of action. For proof, we need look no further than the recent behavior of the United States which has routinely demonstrated a willingness to write its own norms while employing violence on a scale far exceeding anything that Russia has done or is likely to do.
And also:
Russian actions in Ukraine deserve universal condemnation. But as crimes go, Putin’s aggression pales in comparison with the human toll exacted by Saddam Hussein’s US-supported war of choice against Iran. As for the calamitous results of the US invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq, the impact of Russia’s incursion into Ukraine rates as trivial by comparison. The point is not to measure relative iniquity in a balance, but simply to note that while the ongoing events in Ukraine may be tragic, they are not all that unusual.
In short, at least with regard to the Iraq War, this seems to be original research because none of the cited sources refer to a "false equivalence" between the invasion of Iraq and the invasion of Ukraine. In fact, they seem to say the opposite. I would suggest the removal of Iraq, Libya and Syria sections on this ground. The part about the intervention in Serbia can stay because it's sourced and verified to the Associated Press article. MediaKill13 ( talk) 12:05, 13 August 2022 (UTC)
Isn’t this about the illegality of the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine, or stated positively as the criminality of the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine?
A more generic title might seem to be legal aspects of the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine, but I think that describes a much broader scope than just the one question of whether the war is legal. — Michael Z. 00:58, 16 December 2022 (UTC)
There are also some cases before the European Court of Human Rights. See Soirila, Ukri: Kansainvälisen oikeusjärjestelmän haasteet sotatilanteissa: Venäjän hyökkäyssota Ukrainaa vastaan kansainvälisissä tuomioistuimissa Lakimies 2022(7–8):1354–1362. Kaihsu ( talk) 18:17, 4 January 2023 (UTC)
Here are a few sources on the topic if anyone wants to expand. Notably missing from the article is anything about the September 30, 2022, “annexation.”
In journalism, at least a number of sources including The New York Times [1], Washington Post [2], and NPR [3] are not afraid to call illegal illegal. We should not be either. — Michael Z. 05:22, 27 January 2023 (UTC)
Just in case the section number changes, the section heading is this: 'Comparisons to Western interventions in other countries'
My difficulty is with this paragraph:
'The Associated Press has noted that NATO's intervention in Kosovo only occurred after significant evidence of the persecution of ethnic Albanians, whereas Russian forces have no such evidence of abuses by Ukraine. However, it also noted that both interventions began with false claims of the persecution of ethnic minorities in neighboring countries, and that ethnic Russians feared Ukrainian nationalists.'
If I understand that cited article correctly, AP (Associated Press) is saying that:
- NATO only intervened in Kosovo after significant evidence of persecution;
- Russia intervened in Ukraine without significant evidence of persecution;
- Serbia made false claims of persecution of minorities to justify their intervention;
- Russia made false claims of persecution of minorities to justify their intervention.
However, the way that paragraph above is put together, it leads me to the conclusion that it is saying (third line changes):
- NATO only intervened in Kosovo after significant evidence of persecution;
- Russia intervened in Ukraine without significant evidence of persecution;
- NATO made false claims of persecution of minorities to justify their intervention;
- Russia made false claims of persecution of minorities to justify their intervention.
Maybe it's just my reading of it, or my lack of knowledge of the history, but if the latter, other people may put the same interpretation on that paragraph that I have.
A suggestion, if I'm on the right track of it being open to misinterpretation, is to change this part:
'both interventions began with false claims of the persecution...'
to
'both interventions began with false claims (by Serbs and Russians respectively) of the persecution...'
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Legality of the Russian invasion of Ukraine article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | The
contentious topics procedure applies to this page. This page is related to Eastern Europe or the Balkans, which has been
designated as a contentious topic. Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page. |
This is a space to discuss the wording of the first sentence of the article. Originally, the sentence stated that "the apparent consensus" international law experts was that Russia violated international law. This was because I couldn't find any article specifically saying there was a consensus, but I also couldn't find any counterexamples among reputable sources in my research when I wrote the first draft of the article: every source I found agreed that Russia violated international law.
I think the current wording -- "Many international law experts" -- is a bit of an understatement based on what I have found, so I wonder if there is a better alternative. Relatedly, it was pointed out that the sources in the article skew heavily toward US and UK experts, and so it was suggested that the first sentence should read "Many Western international law experts." I have added new sources to rectify that to some degree, but more non-western sources would definitely improve the article. As of now, there is only one really non-Western source for the first sentence (The Hindu, from India).
Johnraymassoud ( talk) 16:17, 13 March 2022 (UTC)Johnraymassoud
We cannot say in wikivoice that the invasion is a "crime of aggression"; this statement needs to be attributed - e.g., "according to some international lawyers and politicians" - or at the most it could be phrased hypothetically - e.g. "...which might constitute a crime of aggression". Now the statement is followed by a citation overkill, which is always a sign of lack of verifiability and neutrality. So we need to examine each citation one by one, but I'm afraid I already know the outcome: whether the invasion was a crime or not under international law is not a matter of course; it's a highly controversial and delicate matter, as the ICC Statute requires a "manifest violation of the Charter". Besides, the ICC has no jurisdiction over Russia, so Putin will never be tried there (unless they change the rules); he might face prosecution before a national court or an ad hoc international tribunal, but that's purely speculative and falls within WP:CRYSTALBALL. Gitz ( talk) ( contribs) 00:39, 21 May 2022 (UTC)
In the section "Comparisons to Western interventions in other countries" the sources do not back the claim that the US invasion of Iraq is a false equivalence or "better" because it tried to introduce democracy, topple dictators, etc. In the New York Post article by Rich Lowry, he states that the US invasion of Iraq was different because of 9/11's impact on the American psyche, not because the US wanted to bring democracy. Also his main point is to argue that US intervention to arm Ukraine is justified because they're in a defensive war. In fact, he even seems to state that the US was just as wrong as Russia is today, for example in this quote:
If the United States launched a large-scale military intervention 20 years ago without adequately calculating the risks or understanding the political and cultural contours of the country it would occupy, it is the Russians, not the Ukrainians, the Europeans or us, who are now replicating that mistake.
The second article in the Spectator is even less in accordance with what is being cited. The main point of the article is that states always act in pursuit of their own agendas, regardless of international law or norms, including the United States. This leads the author to make the claim that the US invasion of Iraq was even worse than the invasion of Ukraine, at least in terms of impact. For example:
The frequently heard charge that Putin’s invasion of Ukraine violates ostensibly sacred international “norms” holds no water. No such norms exist — at least none that a great power will recognize as inhibiting its own freedom of action. For proof, we need look no further than the recent behavior of the United States which has routinely demonstrated a willingness to write its own norms while employing violence on a scale far exceeding anything that Russia has done or is likely to do.
And also:
Russian actions in Ukraine deserve universal condemnation. But as crimes go, Putin’s aggression pales in comparison with the human toll exacted by Saddam Hussein’s US-supported war of choice against Iran. As for the calamitous results of the US invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq, the impact of Russia’s incursion into Ukraine rates as trivial by comparison. The point is not to measure relative iniquity in a balance, but simply to note that while the ongoing events in Ukraine may be tragic, they are not all that unusual.
In short, at least with regard to the Iraq War, this seems to be original research because none of the cited sources refer to a "false equivalence" between the invasion of Iraq and the invasion of Ukraine. In fact, they seem to say the opposite. I would suggest the removal of Iraq, Libya and Syria sections on this ground. The part about the intervention in Serbia can stay because it's sourced and verified to the Associated Press article. MediaKill13 ( talk) 12:05, 13 August 2022 (UTC)
Isn’t this about the illegality of the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine, or stated positively as the criminality of the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine?
A more generic title might seem to be legal aspects of the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine, but I think that describes a much broader scope than just the one question of whether the war is legal. — Michael Z. 00:58, 16 December 2022 (UTC)
There are also some cases before the European Court of Human Rights. See Soirila, Ukri: Kansainvälisen oikeusjärjestelmän haasteet sotatilanteissa: Venäjän hyökkäyssota Ukrainaa vastaan kansainvälisissä tuomioistuimissa Lakimies 2022(7–8):1354–1362. Kaihsu ( talk) 18:17, 4 January 2023 (UTC)
Here are a few sources on the topic if anyone wants to expand. Notably missing from the article is anything about the September 30, 2022, “annexation.”
In journalism, at least a number of sources including The New York Times [1], Washington Post [2], and NPR [3] are not afraid to call illegal illegal. We should not be either. — Michael Z. 05:22, 27 January 2023 (UTC)
Just in case the section number changes, the section heading is this: 'Comparisons to Western interventions in other countries'
My difficulty is with this paragraph:
'The Associated Press has noted that NATO's intervention in Kosovo only occurred after significant evidence of the persecution of ethnic Albanians, whereas Russian forces have no such evidence of abuses by Ukraine. However, it also noted that both interventions began with false claims of the persecution of ethnic minorities in neighboring countries, and that ethnic Russians feared Ukrainian nationalists.'
If I understand that cited article correctly, AP (Associated Press) is saying that:
- NATO only intervened in Kosovo after significant evidence of persecution;
- Russia intervened in Ukraine without significant evidence of persecution;
- Serbia made false claims of persecution of minorities to justify their intervention;
- Russia made false claims of persecution of minorities to justify their intervention.
However, the way that paragraph above is put together, it leads me to the conclusion that it is saying (third line changes):
- NATO only intervened in Kosovo after significant evidence of persecution;
- Russia intervened in Ukraine without significant evidence of persecution;
- NATO made false claims of persecution of minorities to justify their intervention;
- Russia made false claims of persecution of minorities to justify their intervention.
Maybe it's just my reading of it, or my lack of knowledge of the history, but if the latter, other people may put the same interpretation on that paragraph that I have.
A suggestion, if I'm on the right track of it being open to misinterpretation, is to change this part:
'both interventions began with false claims of the persecution...'
to
'both interventions began with false claims (by Serbs and Russians respectively) of the persecution...'