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Ok, now where were we? Looking back thousands of words into the mists of this page's distant history, I think we were talking about talking about a re-write structure. Jere & I were gonna work out our impasse, & then others asked about it so I made a proposal in green font somewhere above (side note: could someone please tell me the formula for linking to a section within a page? Mahalo!). Didn't get much response, though, because then this "undue weight" semite truck crashed into a kapakahi crazy-native blockade in the middle of the road & made, um, a bit of a mess... anyway, given that we'll be cleaning that disaster area up for a while, lets take a bypass route for now, so we can actually get somewhere, whachu guys think?
So what's the kakou [1] mana'o [2] in terms of how to proceed? I would really appreciate it if everyone could please relate responses (including alternate proposals) to the proposal I made above, so that we know where any issues are. There were a few other proposals (a couple of them being earlier drafts of my green one, and there was one from Jere and another one from Larry someplace) even further back that we can look at, too. Main thing is we get this moving toward some semblance of consensus, how you figga?
Lots of Aloha to Everybody, --Laualoha 10:44, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
Mahalo, Larry. I think we can probably work with that overall, though I'm not sure where you're going with the "de facto/de jure" thing, since there were interrelated chiefdoms, not kingdoms, in Hawai'i prior to Kamehameha I, and everything was very different then than in the foreign-influenced structure of the Kingdom. It sounds a little like you may be assuming a Europe-like paradigm? I don't want to assume this, but that's how it sounds...Anyway, I agree that legal questions go pre-contact, & it's fine to mention this, but briefly, as it doesn't relate too directly to the current political state. Also, while I agree the proposal may include too many issues (I just figure I'll list them now so we can see what works), I want to know if the side-by-side concept works for everyone. Personally, I think this is best (it visually frames the argument as an argument, separates arguments from fact/context, makes it easier to understand the debate and it avoids the "weight problem"), so I want to know what everyone else thinks. And if you don't like it, what's better? Aloha,--Laualoha 11:29, 28 September 2007 (UTC)--Laualoha 11:29, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
Laualoha:Ok, I think we can work with this, with some adjustments, if everyone can agree: • The Kamehameha thing: I'm not a humangous Kamehameha fan per se, having O'ahu genealogy myself. However, I don't want this to distract from the main thread here, and I think that relating it effectively to the Legal Status questions without creating a major tangent would take some serious doing. If you want to mention it, I would support that, but I think you should be aware that others will probably feel the need to indefinitely expand whatever you start, so my own opinion is that if you're serious about this mention, I think that you should consider making a separate linked page. Also, the pre-Cook concept of law was very different and would require a lot of explanation: I don't know if we want to get into it right here? • The pictures: Fine, one 1893 picture in the beginning is ok. As far as the statehood picture, I'm ok with including it later in the article. I would also like to add other relevant pictures from other time periods so that the whole thing looks like the high-quality illustrated encyclopedia article it should be. • Archiving: Shoots, I'll work on it. Aloha, --Laualoha 07:28, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
Well, I agree that pre-Cook law is an important point, that's for sure. I just want to steer clear of major distractions to the current legal status issue, and I want to be careful in this particular area, because a lot of stereotypes exist about this and I feel that debunking them would take more effort and page space than it's worth right here. Basically, if it's approached in a solid manner and with enough internal consensus on wording to prevent a fight, I'm all for it. Otherwise, it should probably have its own linked page.
Jere seems to be busy elsewhere at the moment, but I still need to honor our agreement to make a real attempt at some consensus on the basics before either of us proceeds on this article. So hopefully there will have been progress by the time you return, but I can't promise it. Take care & aloha, --Laualoha 14:07, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
The RFC is still open. Can I close it? Eiler7 18:16, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
Okay, me and Laualoha are going to work on a /compromise draft, and see if we can come to some agreement as to structure. -- JereKrischel 20:23, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
Is it just me, or does this seem like a fringe theory, similar to the accusations of unconstitutionality (might not be a word) of income tax... -- TheSeer ( Talkˑ Contribs) 14:14, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
June 2006 - Jere & Laualoha debate question of settled/not settled for the 1st time
June 2006 Jere & Laualoha Debate
June 2006 - Jere argues that legal status is settled due to international recognition of U.S. evidenced by trade; Laualoha argues that trade is common after coups & does not prove legal recognition; Also discuss Bayonet Constitution, term "Armed Sugar Planters", "Peacekeepers", & Ku'e petitions
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 10 | Archive 11 | Archive 12 | Archive 13 |
Ok, now where were we? Looking back thousands of words into the mists of this page's distant history, I think we were talking about talking about a re-write structure. Jere & I were gonna work out our impasse, & then others asked about it so I made a proposal in green font somewhere above (side note: could someone please tell me the formula for linking to a section within a page? Mahalo!). Didn't get much response, though, because then this "undue weight" semite truck crashed into a kapakahi crazy-native blockade in the middle of the road & made, um, a bit of a mess... anyway, given that we'll be cleaning that disaster area up for a while, lets take a bypass route for now, so we can actually get somewhere, whachu guys think?
So what's the kakou [1] mana'o [2] in terms of how to proceed? I would really appreciate it if everyone could please relate responses (including alternate proposals) to the proposal I made above, so that we know where any issues are. There were a few other proposals (a couple of them being earlier drafts of my green one, and there was one from Jere and another one from Larry someplace) even further back that we can look at, too. Main thing is we get this moving toward some semblance of consensus, how you figga?
Lots of Aloha to Everybody, --Laualoha 10:44, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
Mahalo, Larry. I think we can probably work with that overall, though I'm not sure where you're going with the "de facto/de jure" thing, since there were interrelated chiefdoms, not kingdoms, in Hawai'i prior to Kamehameha I, and everything was very different then than in the foreign-influenced structure of the Kingdom. It sounds a little like you may be assuming a Europe-like paradigm? I don't want to assume this, but that's how it sounds...Anyway, I agree that legal questions go pre-contact, & it's fine to mention this, but briefly, as it doesn't relate too directly to the current political state. Also, while I agree the proposal may include too many issues (I just figure I'll list them now so we can see what works), I want to know if the side-by-side concept works for everyone. Personally, I think this is best (it visually frames the argument as an argument, separates arguments from fact/context, makes it easier to understand the debate and it avoids the "weight problem"), so I want to know what everyone else thinks. And if you don't like it, what's better? Aloha,--Laualoha 11:29, 28 September 2007 (UTC)--Laualoha 11:29, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
Laualoha:Ok, I think we can work with this, with some adjustments, if everyone can agree: • The Kamehameha thing: I'm not a humangous Kamehameha fan per se, having O'ahu genealogy myself. However, I don't want this to distract from the main thread here, and I think that relating it effectively to the Legal Status questions without creating a major tangent would take some serious doing. If you want to mention it, I would support that, but I think you should be aware that others will probably feel the need to indefinitely expand whatever you start, so my own opinion is that if you're serious about this mention, I think that you should consider making a separate linked page. Also, the pre-Cook concept of law was very different and would require a lot of explanation: I don't know if we want to get into it right here? • The pictures: Fine, one 1893 picture in the beginning is ok. As far as the statehood picture, I'm ok with including it later in the article. I would also like to add other relevant pictures from other time periods so that the whole thing looks like the high-quality illustrated encyclopedia article it should be. • Archiving: Shoots, I'll work on it. Aloha, --Laualoha 07:28, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
Well, I agree that pre-Cook law is an important point, that's for sure. I just want to steer clear of major distractions to the current legal status issue, and I want to be careful in this particular area, because a lot of stereotypes exist about this and I feel that debunking them would take more effort and page space than it's worth right here. Basically, if it's approached in a solid manner and with enough internal consensus on wording to prevent a fight, I'm all for it. Otherwise, it should probably have its own linked page.
Jere seems to be busy elsewhere at the moment, but I still need to honor our agreement to make a real attempt at some consensus on the basics before either of us proceeds on this article. So hopefully there will have been progress by the time you return, but I can't promise it. Take care & aloha, --Laualoha 14:07, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
The RFC is still open. Can I close it? Eiler7 18:16, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
Okay, me and Laualoha are going to work on a /compromise draft, and see if we can come to some agreement as to structure. -- JereKrischel 20:23, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
Is it just me, or does this seem like a fringe theory, similar to the accusations of unconstitutionality (might not be a word) of income tax... -- TheSeer ( Talkˑ Contribs) 14:14, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
June 2006 - Jere & Laualoha debate question of settled/not settled for the 1st time
June 2006 Jere & Laualoha Debate
June 2006 - Jere argues that legal status is settled due to international recognition of U.S. evidenced by trade; Laualoha argues that trade is common after coups & does not prove legal recognition; Also discuss Bayonet Constitution, term "Armed Sugar Planters", "Peacekeepers", & Ku'e petitions