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Good work, David. Some references (legal and halakhic ones) would be great.
I'm starting to wonder whether we shouldn't put all material on divorce in Judaism on one page. That makes more sense than the present construction. This should mention all the basics, e.g. that a man should not divorce a woman against her will, the problem of the agunah, and indeed the secular legal solutions that have been developed. JFW | T@lk 21:49, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
The material on the "get as a document page" would easily fit into the "get in conflict" page and I am happy to do it if this is the will of the majority. What do you all think? David91 11:33, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
Discussion consolidated on Talk:Get (divorce document). Please discuss it there. Best, -- Shirahadasha 06:18, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
If this article is not merged, I suggest the categories be edited to include some hint that this this a Judaism-related topic in view of these comments [1] and my reply [2]. Also, can the reference to Get (conflict) be clarified on the disambiguation page Get. Joaquin Murietta 15:56, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
As you will observe from the infobox, this is a specialist Conflict of Laws page. That it is dedicated to the get is simply a reflection of the fact that there was inadequate space for the material to be subsumed in other pages and, in any event, I consider the law to be sufficiently interesting to lay (i.e. non-lawyers) people even at this length. I have no objection to a category being added which links to specialist Judaism material. I have added a reference to Conflict on the diambiguation page as requested. For what it is worth, I think it might be better to retain a separate page where more technical religious matters can be described and evaluated. For the religious material to be merged and, to an extent, lost in a secular page might not be appropriate. David91 02:39, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
This is a specialist law page and the fact that, within the general remit of Conflict of Laws it happens to be talking about the get does not, with respect, make this subordinate to the religious description of the process. Suppose that I went to a page in the Category:languages and added a main page reference to Judaism simply because one of the languages mentioned was Hebrew language, this would not be constructive. Hence, I am firmly of the opinion that the relationship between the two pages mentioning the get is one of equality, each of importance and significance within its own category. As a compromise, I have offered different wording as a header which I invite you to respect. Of no significance is my view that it would not be necessary to insert a reciprocal reference on the other page. David91 12:59, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
To a greater or lesser extent, all laws are social instruments that address or respond to phenomena in the relevant state. Hence, if there is a problem with corporate governance in the local commercial infrastructure or with the extent to which it is acceptable within the given society to permit those with terminal illnesses to end their lives with dignity either by suicide or euthanasia, laws are discussed and enacted. As far as I am aware, there is no convention in Wiki that a law page must carry a main template that refers to the page on the phenomenon addressed. The law has its own hierarchy. In this instance, I separated this material out from the divorce page because it was already growing long. The true main page is actually divorce (conflict) but, given the Conflict of Laws infobox, I see no reason to use the main template to refer back to it. Hence, if you wish to argue the case for a radical departure from the conventions of Wiki and every other general reference work, you must make out a case for special treatment and set a precedent for every other law page in the process. The case you must argue is that were it not for any stimulus of substance within a community regulated by law, there would never be a need for any law and this cause and effect must always be recognised by using the main template on the effect pages to point to the pages describing the stimulus. Actually, I believe that your concern is already addressed in the template convention represented by the ==See also== sections or the ability to make hyperlinks within the text to the relevant additional pages. Nevertheless, I have offered a compromise that places wording to be agreed at the top of the law page. There is an ad hoc convention which uses this format to make more prominent internal references between pages and I am not unhappy with such a reference on this Conflict page. So I now wait for a detailed response on the merits. David91 01:54, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
I regret that my entire intellectual posture is formal but it is always intended constructively and, in this instance, I see no reason to depart from it. You have declined to respond as requested and one of the possible inferences to be drawn from this silence is that you cannot argue the case. As to the entirely different question of merger, I have already addressed it in the various entries above. This was created as one "law" page of many constituting coverage of an internationally recognised branch of law. It already makes reference in outline to the religious procedure as a context for the secular municipal and transnational legal responses. Self-evidently, more "religious" detail could be added to this page but it would have qualitites of redundancy. I believe that sufficient explanatory material has been included for the rest of the material to make sense. To merge more "religious" material into the "law" page devalues the former. I therefore rejected the proposed merger, preferring to see the development of a comprehensive page purely from the perspective of Judaism (which I had expected to find in the first place). I would take exactly the same view if someone proposed to merge the page on the Sarbanes-Oxley Act 2002 with corporate governance and any of the hundreds of other law pages and the issues which they address. David91 03:35, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
Since only three people seem interested in the issue of merging and by a margin of at least 2:1 we agree that a merger is not appropriate, I have removed the merge tag. David91 06:39, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
Should this topic be renamed Get (conflict of laws) ?? Joaquin Murietta 15:04, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
All of the lawyers specialising in this topic use Conflict as the standard term of reference. If you look at all the other pages in this section of the Wiki, you will see that they are all named (conflict) or, where the spread of the page is more generic (law), just as all the pages referring to the Law of Contract are (contract), etc. So the answer to your question is that no lawyer would use the full version of their subject name in the page heading. David91 02:01, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
Perhaps you would be good enough to offer a justification for renaming a page referring to a formalised academic and practitioner legal discipline using the standard shorthand of that discipline. In this instance, the second sentence of the page clearly identifies this as a Conflict of Laws page so I fail to see the need to change the title. I would not presume to tell a person specialising in another subject area how to title the pages he or she had created without offering some form of explanation. My approach is to be courteous and to show respect for another's expertise. I invite you to do the same and to avoid behaviour that has qualities of arbitrariness. David91 04:03, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
It seems that one of my major faults is that I am a creature of reason. I solicit and evaluate arguments. If the argument has merit, I accede to it. If it has no merit, I disregard it. Is it the case, for example, that within the Jewish faith, the word "conflict" has a pejorative connotation or does it, in some way unknown to me, offend Jewish values? I do not and cannot know what your reasons are for suggesting a redirect that avoids the use of the word "conflict" on its own. If you do not offer reasons, I can only conclude that you have none of substance. I prefer to believe that everyone is rational and can explain themselves. Please do not disappoint me in this respect. David91 05:35, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
David, no offense meant by either JFD or me. But would you object if I started a topic called Get (conflict of laws) that redirected to Get (conflict)? Joaquin Murietta 07:09, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
While I don't disagree with the author's sentiments about morality, per NPOV policy statements about what is moral should be attributed and sourced; the article itself shouldn't be making claims that views the author disagrees with are immoral. -- Shirahadasha 20:08, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
This is ridiculous. We don't refer to HaRav HaGaon Rabbi Moshe Feinstein zt"l or any other gedolim with such title on Wikipedia. To do so for Lieberman is inconsistant with policy and, in my opinion, probably an attempt to instigate conflict. -- Yodamace1 12:24, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
There has been a lot of new additions to the article by Sagbliss which look a lot like WP:OR. This individual has also been very aggressive with other editors. See User talk:198.23.5.73 and User_talk:Savant1984#Talk:Reform_Judaism and User talk:24.225.137.164. In additional to adding a lot of material from cases around the world, this person is reshaping the article "to highlight the plight of the agunah." Since he or she claims to be part of an active Canadian court case related to the topic, this also falls into a conflict of interest. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bruno23 ( talk • contribs) 14:15, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
-- Sagbliss 04:08, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
-- Sagbliss 04:08, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
sagbliss is a windbag( Cerf62 23:38, 6 November 2007 (UTC))
-- Sagbliss 04:08, 25 October 2007 (UTC) All of you editors do not understand the legal issues or the way to write it. The word conflict alone is inappropriate but the proper expression would be the conflict of religious laws versus the church and state doctrinewhich is applicable in the United States, Lemon v Kurtzman (the lemon test) of the Establishment clause which does not permit an tangling between the establishment and religion. In Australia, the issue is the same as the United States and now in Canada, the issue before the Supreme Court of Canada is whether a contract with religious overtones is enforceable such as the judgment that Mr. Marcovitz was in violation of for 15 years.
When writing about a legal topic, you have to be clear. In the next days when I have time, I am going to add sections on the US law and hopefully someone will not remove the cites. The Brett case is also incorrectly written. It is about specific performance which is akin to the Bruker v Marcovitz case in Canada. The issue is not whether a proper prenuptial agreement will solve the problem. This is only if the man agrees to give the get. In the Supreme Court papers, Mr. Marcovitz claimed that his conscience would not permit him to give the get. I also encourage you all to read the CCLA amicus curaie brief which Mr. Marcovitz' attorney had requested, (the website keeps on getting removed from the article.) It is In the case of the Hachoen Case in Israel, the man was charged monies by the day and if Bruker wins the case in the Supreme court of Canada, perhaps it will be realized that a woman can sue for specific performance and get an award computed daily so that men do not withhold the get from women. This also has application to other religions and Muslim women as well. -- Sagbliss 23:12, 15 October 2007 (UTC) how strange —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cerf62 ( talk • contribs) 18:10, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
Substantial parts of this case are not relevant to the conflict and should probably be removed. Also the article must conform to WP:BLP. Rich Farmbrough, 09:10 12 October 2007 (GMT).
-- Sagbliss 23:12, 15 October 2007 (UTC)And in the event that the Supreme Court affirms Ms. Bruker's appeal, this Court of Appeals case will be moot because the Supreme Court is the highest Court in the land. -- Sagbliss 23:12, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
Go to http://www.ledevoir.com/2006/04/28/107792.html--Ms. Bruker was not an Orthodox Jew but a Conservative Jewess and all of you editors who I imagine do not have an inkling about Jewish law, secular law and the issue of abusing women by withholding a barrier to remarriage should really read this article. Farmbrough was write that portions of the Court of Appeals Law is irrelevant. Further, all of you should educate yourself on the options available to women to circumvent the problem of the agunah. The article as is is written and currently posted is offensive inaccurate and false.
-- Sagbliss 04:08, 25 October 2007 (UTC) The issue is a man withholding a get from a woman. As you might understand it is the man who must make the request for a get to the Bet Din. In the case of Bruker, the man was in violation of a judgment in 1980 which ordered him to appear before Rabbinical Authorities. If you look at the Greenberg article, he is absolutely opposed to the Court of Appeals judgment because Courts to date in other jurisdictions have ordered specific performance. Look at the Brett Case. This is why the Supreme Court case issue is the justiciability of a contract with religious overtones. Look at the CCLA case. The facts of the case that Ms. Bruker was able to conceive are important in terms of damages. The facts of the marriage have no import because the 1980 judgement which Mr. Marcovitz violated are after the marriage. And Ms. Bruker if you read some of the press has never stated that she was an Orthodox Jewess but Conservative. Again the issue of specific performance is related to ordering someone to do something that may be against his conscience. This conscience issue is also more often than not used as an excuse for violating an agreement. And with the word conflict, it is inappropriate because it does not describe the issue. It should be the conflict between religious law and the doctrine of separation of church and state. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sagbliss ( talk • contribs) 16:36, 16 October 2007 (UTC) I assume you are not Jewish. Your comment is offensive and considered lashon hora. Look it up.-- Sagbliss 04:08, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
-- Sagbliss 04:08, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
Naturally, I have no idea what the foregoing rant is about, but it may illustrate the general lack of knowledge in today's society relative to the role of government. The Bill of Rights is applicable to the federal government and to the States, but generally does not circumscribe or restrict the conduct of private individuals. The civil rights legislation, as a rule, does not apply to an activity like posting comments on this discussion board. While libel and slander are contrary to law, a person who participates in an international forum like a Wikipedia discussion board needs to know that his comments may receive a response, that the response is sometimes "emotionally charged," and that, in the words of Harry Truman, "if you can't stand the heat, you should stay out of the kitchen." John Paul Parks ( talk) 13:29, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
Recent out of order and place posts to this page have made it very confusing to read and contribute. I'm reluctant to try to repair the damage since it will obfuscate who's saying what. For those who want to understand previous conversations, I suggest you walk through the history of the page. I propose that any new points be added with a new header AT THE BOTTOM OF THE PAGE. Bruno23 17:07, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
{{ editprotected}} To the admins, please change this copy in section 2.1.1 from:
to
While the removed sentence was helpful to support Bruker's claims of damages in the case (proof that she was indeed able to conceive which supports her claims that she was prevented from having more children), it's secondary to the broader issues of whether civil courts can intervene in what was a religious promise. The reference does not change. Bruno23 17:43, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
{{ editprotected}} This is a repair of bullets from a previous version.
The last part of Section 2.4 (United Kingdom) now reads:
The present rules derive from the Divorce (Religious Marriages) Act 2002 (as implemented by the Family Proceedings (Amendment) Rules 2003), which applies if a decree nisi has been granted but not made absolute and the parties:
(i) any other prescribed religious usages; and
Please restore it to the version, dated 13:59, 23 October 2007:
The present rules derive from the Divorce (Religious Marriages) Act 2002 (as implemented by the Family Proceedings (Amendment) Rules 2003), which applies if a decree nisi has been granted but not made absolute and the parties:
Thanks. 198.23.5.10 13:55, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
The Bruker case has been resolved, i.e. http://lawiscool.com/2007/12/23/religious-promises-may-be-binding/ 64.229.21.7 ( talk) 22:00, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
After reading Sagbliss' many comments on how women are victimized by men who refuse to grant a Get, I did some more reading in Wikipedia. It turns out it's an equal opportunity tactic. Here's an interesting quote from the Get article:
Nothing like published and verifiable information from reputable sources to help wade through the rhetoric. Bruno23 11:09, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
Instead of concentrating exclusively on the relationship between civil divorce and Jewish divorce, I think the article should be expanded to explore the relationship between civil divorce and all religious proceedings relating to marriage. John Paul Parks ( talk) 13:24, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
"At the first trial, the court found that the matter could be argued before the civil courts and that Mr. Marcovitz had breached his contractual obligation. He awarded Ms. Bruker $47, 500 in damages.": 'He' awarded? He as in the male person? Or is something along the lines of "Ms. Bruker was awarded" intended? Knotwork ( talk) 22:06, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
To the editors of this article: FYI, this article is incorrect. The Supreme Court Case in Canada, December 14, 2007, is now the law. The date of the rehearing is also really not relevant. The case from the lower court and the Court of Appeals should not be cited. Look at http://wiselaw.blogspot.com/2008/01/religious-divorce-and-legal-obligation.html The paragraph at the beginning of the article with the definition of what a get is is also incorrect. This article is about what is being done in the civil courts concerning a religious issue which is why the Supreme COurt case is relevant because it is the justiciability of a civil contract with religious overtones.
The definition that is on the site is as follows: A get or gett (גט) is the Jewish form of divorce which, when one is available in the state of residence, is supervised by a Beth Din (בית דין), a rabbinical court. This page deals with the Conflict of Laws implications. For a discussion of the purely religious implications, see religious divorce.
A get is only available from a Bet Din. There are Bet Dins wherever there are Jews. It has nothing to do with one's state residence. If one lives in a country without many Jews, one can apply to a community with Jews.
The reason that the Supreme Court case of Canada was so important is that it deals with a religious obligation which is usually not justiciable in the civil courts. But in the Bruker case, there was a civil judgment which Mr. Marcovitz violated. See http://www.lawyersweekly.ca/index.php?section=article&articleid=597 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sabrinascat ( talk • contribs) 17:24, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
It seems that Bruno sent me a strange message about Bruker who I think is the same name as the woman in the case and I don't understand why. My comments addressed two issues. The first was the definition of the get which seems to be what is addressed by Bruno in the response to my comments. This is not addressed by Bruno. The definition of the get should have nothing to do with the jurisdiction where the get is obtained. The get is Jewish law and has nothing to do with civil law. It is obtained in any religious court worldwide as long as the husband requests the get. Perhaps a religious Jewish person should be consulted as to this fact.
In terms of Bruno's comment, " This comment misses the point that the Bruker case was about the very question of whether religious or secular law applies. Even though the Canadian Supreme court found that Marcovitz should have complied with the civil contract, the issue very much involved the religious Get." A get is not justiciable in any civil court in any democratic country which is why there is so much evolving law to get around the issue. The Supreme Court case in Canada teaches lawyers to carefully draft a legal clause into the prenuptial agreements so that that there is no forced specific performance because of the very fact that a get has to be given of a person's free will.
The Canadian Supreme Court decision explains that Mr. Marcovitz was in violation of a Superior Court judgment that he had to appear before Rabbinical Authorities to give the get. The two operative words were "to appear". The only reason the Supreme Court considered the case is because the case involved a civil contract. Further, the Plaintiff did not ask for specific performance which would have been to compel Mr. Marcovitz to give the get.
With respect to the lower Court decisions, they are moot now and are not quoted. Ask any attorney or legal student on the cite. As a matter of fact, when an attorney cites a quotation the citation cited stands for a legal principle. The Court of Appeals case is wrong in law and was reversed and therefore should not be quoted at all. The minority view of the Supreme Court is also not law. It is the same as in a US election when the loser does not win. Is he still considered the President? Perhaps you should consult other editors on this site or the "we" you cite. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sabrinascat ( talk • contribs) 04:39, 31 August 2008 (UTC)
Swatjester whomever he is has blocked me off the site with a statement "Sabrinascat is a sockpuppet to Sagbliss. > I don't know who sagbliss is and don't understand what that means? I have looked at the policies of Wikipedia and what was done to me by blocking me entirely off the site is against the custom and policies of Wikipedia. Also this site as I see it is incorrect and is being controlled by Bruno and Swatjester. Please respond with a proper link. I also got an email on my computer--from a Bruno --Bruker give it up. Bruker is the woman in the article. > Does he know the woman named in the article? There is no reason > why I should be blocked from the site. Further I wanted to see that the article is accurate which it is not. I look forward to receiving from > you a correct email address to the appropriate person who can speak to the two persons who seem to be on this site an apology for this behaviour. Also my contribution to this article was entirely appropriate and accuate. I suggest that a human rights attorney on the get issue be consulted on this article. The other thing that Swatjester and Bruno did was block me from even my user page which according to the custom and policy of wikipedia is to be left in the issue of a dispute.
sabrinascat
I need to speak to the person who works on appeals. There is no reason —Preceding unsigned comment added by 170.170.59.139 ( talk) 16:01, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Contract (conflict) which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. — RM bot 20:01, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Civil recognition of Jewish divorce is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.
The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Civil recognition of Jewish divorce until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.
Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article.
Concern, reason or rationale: It is an original research largely by its creator as part of his series of work also of original research on the theme of the subject of the
Conflict of laws; only an Israeli Jewish (religious) divorce can be recognized by civil authorities overseas, and that is only an automatic legal right in domestic law in the
United Kingdom and in the
Republic of Ireland; the article is unnecessarily, unacceptably and unreasonably hypothetical and legalistic, and ought to be merged with the main article, being
Get (divorce document).
212.50.182.151 (
talk) 10:57, 29 September 2013 (UTC)
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Good work, David. Some references (legal and halakhic ones) would be great.
I'm starting to wonder whether we shouldn't put all material on divorce in Judaism on one page. That makes more sense than the present construction. This should mention all the basics, e.g. that a man should not divorce a woman against her will, the problem of the agunah, and indeed the secular legal solutions that have been developed. JFW | T@lk 21:49, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
The material on the "get as a document page" would easily fit into the "get in conflict" page and I am happy to do it if this is the will of the majority. What do you all think? David91 11:33, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
Discussion consolidated on Talk:Get (divorce document). Please discuss it there. Best, -- Shirahadasha 06:18, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
If this article is not merged, I suggest the categories be edited to include some hint that this this a Judaism-related topic in view of these comments [1] and my reply [2]. Also, can the reference to Get (conflict) be clarified on the disambiguation page Get. Joaquin Murietta 15:56, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
As you will observe from the infobox, this is a specialist Conflict of Laws page. That it is dedicated to the get is simply a reflection of the fact that there was inadequate space for the material to be subsumed in other pages and, in any event, I consider the law to be sufficiently interesting to lay (i.e. non-lawyers) people even at this length. I have no objection to a category being added which links to specialist Judaism material. I have added a reference to Conflict on the diambiguation page as requested. For what it is worth, I think it might be better to retain a separate page where more technical religious matters can be described and evaluated. For the religious material to be merged and, to an extent, lost in a secular page might not be appropriate. David91 02:39, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
This is a specialist law page and the fact that, within the general remit of Conflict of Laws it happens to be talking about the get does not, with respect, make this subordinate to the religious description of the process. Suppose that I went to a page in the Category:languages and added a main page reference to Judaism simply because one of the languages mentioned was Hebrew language, this would not be constructive. Hence, I am firmly of the opinion that the relationship between the two pages mentioning the get is one of equality, each of importance and significance within its own category. As a compromise, I have offered different wording as a header which I invite you to respect. Of no significance is my view that it would not be necessary to insert a reciprocal reference on the other page. David91 12:59, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
To a greater or lesser extent, all laws are social instruments that address or respond to phenomena in the relevant state. Hence, if there is a problem with corporate governance in the local commercial infrastructure or with the extent to which it is acceptable within the given society to permit those with terminal illnesses to end their lives with dignity either by suicide or euthanasia, laws are discussed and enacted. As far as I am aware, there is no convention in Wiki that a law page must carry a main template that refers to the page on the phenomenon addressed. The law has its own hierarchy. In this instance, I separated this material out from the divorce page because it was already growing long. The true main page is actually divorce (conflict) but, given the Conflict of Laws infobox, I see no reason to use the main template to refer back to it. Hence, if you wish to argue the case for a radical departure from the conventions of Wiki and every other general reference work, you must make out a case for special treatment and set a precedent for every other law page in the process. The case you must argue is that were it not for any stimulus of substance within a community regulated by law, there would never be a need for any law and this cause and effect must always be recognised by using the main template on the effect pages to point to the pages describing the stimulus. Actually, I believe that your concern is already addressed in the template convention represented by the ==See also== sections or the ability to make hyperlinks within the text to the relevant additional pages. Nevertheless, I have offered a compromise that places wording to be agreed at the top of the law page. There is an ad hoc convention which uses this format to make more prominent internal references between pages and I am not unhappy with such a reference on this Conflict page. So I now wait for a detailed response on the merits. David91 01:54, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
I regret that my entire intellectual posture is formal but it is always intended constructively and, in this instance, I see no reason to depart from it. You have declined to respond as requested and one of the possible inferences to be drawn from this silence is that you cannot argue the case. As to the entirely different question of merger, I have already addressed it in the various entries above. This was created as one "law" page of many constituting coverage of an internationally recognised branch of law. It already makes reference in outline to the religious procedure as a context for the secular municipal and transnational legal responses. Self-evidently, more "religious" detail could be added to this page but it would have qualitites of redundancy. I believe that sufficient explanatory material has been included for the rest of the material to make sense. To merge more "religious" material into the "law" page devalues the former. I therefore rejected the proposed merger, preferring to see the development of a comprehensive page purely from the perspective of Judaism (which I had expected to find in the first place). I would take exactly the same view if someone proposed to merge the page on the Sarbanes-Oxley Act 2002 with corporate governance and any of the hundreds of other law pages and the issues which they address. David91 03:35, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
Since only three people seem interested in the issue of merging and by a margin of at least 2:1 we agree that a merger is not appropriate, I have removed the merge tag. David91 06:39, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
Should this topic be renamed Get (conflict of laws) ?? Joaquin Murietta 15:04, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
All of the lawyers specialising in this topic use Conflict as the standard term of reference. If you look at all the other pages in this section of the Wiki, you will see that they are all named (conflict) or, where the spread of the page is more generic (law), just as all the pages referring to the Law of Contract are (contract), etc. So the answer to your question is that no lawyer would use the full version of their subject name in the page heading. David91 02:01, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
Perhaps you would be good enough to offer a justification for renaming a page referring to a formalised academic and practitioner legal discipline using the standard shorthand of that discipline. In this instance, the second sentence of the page clearly identifies this as a Conflict of Laws page so I fail to see the need to change the title. I would not presume to tell a person specialising in another subject area how to title the pages he or she had created without offering some form of explanation. My approach is to be courteous and to show respect for another's expertise. I invite you to do the same and to avoid behaviour that has qualities of arbitrariness. David91 04:03, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
It seems that one of my major faults is that I am a creature of reason. I solicit and evaluate arguments. If the argument has merit, I accede to it. If it has no merit, I disregard it. Is it the case, for example, that within the Jewish faith, the word "conflict" has a pejorative connotation or does it, in some way unknown to me, offend Jewish values? I do not and cannot know what your reasons are for suggesting a redirect that avoids the use of the word "conflict" on its own. If you do not offer reasons, I can only conclude that you have none of substance. I prefer to believe that everyone is rational and can explain themselves. Please do not disappoint me in this respect. David91 05:35, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
David, no offense meant by either JFD or me. But would you object if I started a topic called Get (conflict of laws) that redirected to Get (conflict)? Joaquin Murietta 07:09, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
While I don't disagree with the author's sentiments about morality, per NPOV policy statements about what is moral should be attributed and sourced; the article itself shouldn't be making claims that views the author disagrees with are immoral. -- Shirahadasha 20:08, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
This is ridiculous. We don't refer to HaRav HaGaon Rabbi Moshe Feinstein zt"l or any other gedolim with such title on Wikipedia. To do so for Lieberman is inconsistant with policy and, in my opinion, probably an attempt to instigate conflict. -- Yodamace1 12:24, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
There has been a lot of new additions to the article by Sagbliss which look a lot like WP:OR. This individual has also been very aggressive with other editors. See User talk:198.23.5.73 and User_talk:Savant1984#Talk:Reform_Judaism and User talk:24.225.137.164. In additional to adding a lot of material from cases around the world, this person is reshaping the article "to highlight the plight of the agunah." Since he or she claims to be part of an active Canadian court case related to the topic, this also falls into a conflict of interest. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bruno23 ( talk • contribs) 14:15, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
-- Sagbliss 04:08, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
-- Sagbliss 04:08, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
sagbliss is a windbag( Cerf62 23:38, 6 November 2007 (UTC))
-- Sagbliss 04:08, 25 October 2007 (UTC) All of you editors do not understand the legal issues or the way to write it. The word conflict alone is inappropriate but the proper expression would be the conflict of religious laws versus the church and state doctrinewhich is applicable in the United States, Lemon v Kurtzman (the lemon test) of the Establishment clause which does not permit an tangling between the establishment and religion. In Australia, the issue is the same as the United States and now in Canada, the issue before the Supreme Court of Canada is whether a contract with religious overtones is enforceable such as the judgment that Mr. Marcovitz was in violation of for 15 years.
When writing about a legal topic, you have to be clear. In the next days when I have time, I am going to add sections on the US law and hopefully someone will not remove the cites. The Brett case is also incorrectly written. It is about specific performance which is akin to the Bruker v Marcovitz case in Canada. The issue is not whether a proper prenuptial agreement will solve the problem. This is only if the man agrees to give the get. In the Supreme Court papers, Mr. Marcovitz claimed that his conscience would not permit him to give the get. I also encourage you all to read the CCLA amicus curaie brief which Mr. Marcovitz' attorney had requested, (the website keeps on getting removed from the article.) It is In the case of the Hachoen Case in Israel, the man was charged monies by the day and if Bruker wins the case in the Supreme court of Canada, perhaps it will be realized that a woman can sue for specific performance and get an award computed daily so that men do not withhold the get from women. This also has application to other religions and Muslim women as well. -- Sagbliss 23:12, 15 October 2007 (UTC) how strange —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cerf62 ( talk • contribs) 18:10, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
Substantial parts of this case are not relevant to the conflict and should probably be removed. Also the article must conform to WP:BLP. Rich Farmbrough, 09:10 12 October 2007 (GMT).
-- Sagbliss 23:12, 15 October 2007 (UTC)And in the event that the Supreme Court affirms Ms. Bruker's appeal, this Court of Appeals case will be moot because the Supreme Court is the highest Court in the land. -- Sagbliss 23:12, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
Go to http://www.ledevoir.com/2006/04/28/107792.html--Ms. Bruker was not an Orthodox Jew but a Conservative Jewess and all of you editors who I imagine do not have an inkling about Jewish law, secular law and the issue of abusing women by withholding a barrier to remarriage should really read this article. Farmbrough was write that portions of the Court of Appeals Law is irrelevant. Further, all of you should educate yourself on the options available to women to circumvent the problem of the agunah. The article as is is written and currently posted is offensive inaccurate and false.
-- Sagbliss 04:08, 25 October 2007 (UTC) The issue is a man withholding a get from a woman. As you might understand it is the man who must make the request for a get to the Bet Din. In the case of Bruker, the man was in violation of a judgment in 1980 which ordered him to appear before Rabbinical Authorities. If you look at the Greenberg article, he is absolutely opposed to the Court of Appeals judgment because Courts to date in other jurisdictions have ordered specific performance. Look at the Brett Case. This is why the Supreme Court case issue is the justiciability of a contract with religious overtones. Look at the CCLA case. The facts of the case that Ms. Bruker was able to conceive are important in terms of damages. The facts of the marriage have no import because the 1980 judgement which Mr. Marcovitz violated are after the marriage. And Ms. Bruker if you read some of the press has never stated that she was an Orthodox Jewess but Conservative. Again the issue of specific performance is related to ordering someone to do something that may be against his conscience. This conscience issue is also more often than not used as an excuse for violating an agreement. And with the word conflict, it is inappropriate because it does not describe the issue. It should be the conflict between religious law and the doctrine of separation of church and state. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sagbliss ( talk • contribs) 16:36, 16 October 2007 (UTC) I assume you are not Jewish. Your comment is offensive and considered lashon hora. Look it up.-- Sagbliss 04:08, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
-- Sagbliss 04:08, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
Naturally, I have no idea what the foregoing rant is about, but it may illustrate the general lack of knowledge in today's society relative to the role of government. The Bill of Rights is applicable to the federal government and to the States, but generally does not circumscribe or restrict the conduct of private individuals. The civil rights legislation, as a rule, does not apply to an activity like posting comments on this discussion board. While libel and slander are contrary to law, a person who participates in an international forum like a Wikipedia discussion board needs to know that his comments may receive a response, that the response is sometimes "emotionally charged," and that, in the words of Harry Truman, "if you can't stand the heat, you should stay out of the kitchen." John Paul Parks ( talk) 13:29, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
Recent out of order and place posts to this page have made it very confusing to read and contribute. I'm reluctant to try to repair the damage since it will obfuscate who's saying what. For those who want to understand previous conversations, I suggest you walk through the history of the page. I propose that any new points be added with a new header AT THE BOTTOM OF THE PAGE. Bruno23 17:07, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
{{ editprotected}} To the admins, please change this copy in section 2.1.1 from:
to
While the removed sentence was helpful to support Bruker's claims of damages in the case (proof that she was indeed able to conceive which supports her claims that she was prevented from having more children), it's secondary to the broader issues of whether civil courts can intervene in what was a religious promise. The reference does not change. Bruno23 17:43, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
{{ editprotected}} This is a repair of bullets from a previous version.
The last part of Section 2.4 (United Kingdom) now reads:
The present rules derive from the Divorce (Religious Marriages) Act 2002 (as implemented by the Family Proceedings (Amendment) Rules 2003), which applies if a decree nisi has been granted but not made absolute and the parties:
(i) any other prescribed religious usages; and
Please restore it to the version, dated 13:59, 23 October 2007:
The present rules derive from the Divorce (Religious Marriages) Act 2002 (as implemented by the Family Proceedings (Amendment) Rules 2003), which applies if a decree nisi has been granted but not made absolute and the parties:
Thanks. 198.23.5.10 13:55, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
The Bruker case has been resolved, i.e. http://lawiscool.com/2007/12/23/religious-promises-may-be-binding/ 64.229.21.7 ( talk) 22:00, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
After reading Sagbliss' many comments on how women are victimized by men who refuse to grant a Get, I did some more reading in Wikipedia. It turns out it's an equal opportunity tactic. Here's an interesting quote from the Get article:
Nothing like published and verifiable information from reputable sources to help wade through the rhetoric. Bruno23 11:09, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
Instead of concentrating exclusively on the relationship between civil divorce and Jewish divorce, I think the article should be expanded to explore the relationship between civil divorce and all religious proceedings relating to marriage. John Paul Parks ( talk) 13:24, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
"At the first trial, the court found that the matter could be argued before the civil courts and that Mr. Marcovitz had breached his contractual obligation. He awarded Ms. Bruker $47, 500 in damages.": 'He' awarded? He as in the male person? Or is something along the lines of "Ms. Bruker was awarded" intended? Knotwork ( talk) 22:06, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
To the editors of this article: FYI, this article is incorrect. The Supreme Court Case in Canada, December 14, 2007, is now the law. The date of the rehearing is also really not relevant. The case from the lower court and the Court of Appeals should not be cited. Look at http://wiselaw.blogspot.com/2008/01/religious-divorce-and-legal-obligation.html The paragraph at the beginning of the article with the definition of what a get is is also incorrect. This article is about what is being done in the civil courts concerning a religious issue which is why the Supreme COurt case is relevant because it is the justiciability of a civil contract with religious overtones.
The definition that is on the site is as follows: A get or gett (גט) is the Jewish form of divorce which, when one is available in the state of residence, is supervised by a Beth Din (בית דין), a rabbinical court. This page deals with the Conflict of Laws implications. For a discussion of the purely religious implications, see religious divorce.
A get is only available from a Bet Din. There are Bet Dins wherever there are Jews. It has nothing to do with one's state residence. If one lives in a country without many Jews, one can apply to a community with Jews.
The reason that the Supreme Court case of Canada was so important is that it deals with a religious obligation which is usually not justiciable in the civil courts. But in the Bruker case, there was a civil judgment which Mr. Marcovitz violated. See http://www.lawyersweekly.ca/index.php?section=article&articleid=597 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sabrinascat ( talk • contribs) 17:24, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
It seems that Bruno sent me a strange message about Bruker who I think is the same name as the woman in the case and I don't understand why. My comments addressed two issues. The first was the definition of the get which seems to be what is addressed by Bruno in the response to my comments. This is not addressed by Bruno. The definition of the get should have nothing to do with the jurisdiction where the get is obtained. The get is Jewish law and has nothing to do with civil law. It is obtained in any religious court worldwide as long as the husband requests the get. Perhaps a religious Jewish person should be consulted as to this fact.
In terms of Bruno's comment, " This comment misses the point that the Bruker case was about the very question of whether religious or secular law applies. Even though the Canadian Supreme court found that Marcovitz should have complied with the civil contract, the issue very much involved the religious Get." A get is not justiciable in any civil court in any democratic country which is why there is so much evolving law to get around the issue. The Supreme Court case in Canada teaches lawyers to carefully draft a legal clause into the prenuptial agreements so that that there is no forced specific performance because of the very fact that a get has to be given of a person's free will.
The Canadian Supreme Court decision explains that Mr. Marcovitz was in violation of a Superior Court judgment that he had to appear before Rabbinical Authorities to give the get. The two operative words were "to appear". The only reason the Supreme Court considered the case is because the case involved a civil contract. Further, the Plaintiff did not ask for specific performance which would have been to compel Mr. Marcovitz to give the get.
With respect to the lower Court decisions, they are moot now and are not quoted. Ask any attorney or legal student on the cite. As a matter of fact, when an attorney cites a quotation the citation cited stands for a legal principle. The Court of Appeals case is wrong in law and was reversed and therefore should not be quoted at all. The minority view of the Supreme Court is also not law. It is the same as in a US election when the loser does not win. Is he still considered the President? Perhaps you should consult other editors on this site or the "we" you cite. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sabrinascat ( talk • contribs) 04:39, 31 August 2008 (UTC)
Swatjester whomever he is has blocked me off the site with a statement "Sabrinascat is a sockpuppet to Sagbliss. > I don't know who sagbliss is and don't understand what that means? I have looked at the policies of Wikipedia and what was done to me by blocking me entirely off the site is against the custom and policies of Wikipedia. Also this site as I see it is incorrect and is being controlled by Bruno and Swatjester. Please respond with a proper link. I also got an email on my computer--from a Bruno --Bruker give it up. Bruker is the woman in the article. > Does he know the woman named in the article? There is no reason > why I should be blocked from the site. Further I wanted to see that the article is accurate which it is not. I look forward to receiving from > you a correct email address to the appropriate person who can speak to the two persons who seem to be on this site an apology for this behaviour. Also my contribution to this article was entirely appropriate and accuate. I suggest that a human rights attorney on the get issue be consulted on this article. The other thing that Swatjester and Bruno did was block me from even my user page which according to the custom and policy of wikipedia is to be left in the issue of a dispute.
sabrinascat
I need to speak to the person who works on appeals. There is no reason —Preceding unsigned comment added by 170.170.59.139 ( talk) 16:01, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Contract (conflict) which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. — RM bot 20:01, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Civil recognition of Jewish divorce is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.
The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Civil recognition of Jewish divorce until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.
Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article.
Concern, reason or rationale: It is an original research largely by its creator as part of his series of work also of original research on the theme of the subject of the
Conflict of laws; only an Israeli Jewish (religious) divorce can be recognized by civil authorities overseas, and that is only an automatic legal right in domestic law in the
United Kingdom and in the
Republic of Ireland; the article is unnecessarily, unacceptably and unreasonably hypothetical and legalistic, and ought to be merged with the main article, being
Get (divorce document).
212.50.182.151 (
talk) 10:57, 29 September 2013 (UTC)