![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
The subject matter of this article is really a subset of economic nationalism, and it should incorporated into that article (despite the fact that the latter isn't in such great shape itself). – SJL 05:00, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
Many sources furnished on the AfD page. Term is over 80 years old, found in well over six hundred books, and literally thousands of learned articles. Collect ( talk) 20:31, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
write a paragraph about the diferences of Left-wing nationalism and National Sociolism (Naziism) cause a lot of peple don't see it... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.216.89.205 ( talk) 16:03, 13 August 2009 (UTC) Lenf Wing Nationalism and Nazism are indeed different. Nazism fits more into the Fascism category of political ideologies, while Left Wing Nationalism has been historically charactesized by Communism and Stalinism. FAscism and Nazism are separate at the moment, and Nazism has its own seperate article, therefore there is no need to state any difference at the moment. If you would like to tedit the article and, with sources, explain the difference, it would be great. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.205.75.12 ( talk) 23:54, 5 November 2009 (UTC)
This article meets notability standards, and is not a "dictionary entry." This is a distinct topic, with a great ddeal of material which has been in it. Oppose merge. Collect ( talk) 16:58, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
I oppose the merge but I also think that it is important to recognise that both types are nationalism. It would be lying to say that they are the same or that they are completly diffrent. While Wikipedia is not a dictionary it is important to relise that people will want to research things separetly. If you are doing something on right-wing nationalism then you don't want to read through alot of stuff on left wing nationalism and vise verser. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Golden Bookworm ( talk • contribs) 00:16, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
I have removed all sections that lacked any references. The Four Deuces ( talk) 02:57, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
I wrote a lead to describe the concept developed by the Milners in 1973 which they called "left-wing nationalism". The Four Deuces ( talk) 18:11, 6 December 2009 (UTC)
The definition in the lead is not supported by the source, which is a chapter called Nationalism and the Left. [4] In fact the term appears nowhere in the book. The only definition I could find for the term was from the Milners who wrote about Quebec. But it excludes most of the political groups described in the article. I will therefore put up an original research tag. The Four Deuces ( talk) 10:29, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
These are the sections that I used for the definition.-- R-41 ( talk) 16:16, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
(out) Political thought in Canada uses the term left nationalism to describe nationalism in Quebec, which is the subject of the Milner's book. "The revival of Black nationalism" describes nationalism among African Americans which was also discussed in the Milners' book. The use of the term in Specters of 1919 seems similar to the use in the Milners' book: "The "left" nationalism of the Bolsheviks, calling for colonial emancipation from imperialism..." although it seems they were at core leftists who used nationalism for political advantage. In any case none of these sources provide a definition. The Four Deuces ( talk) 21:43, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
This article reads more like a political polemic than anything. Is anyone going to seriously argue that nationalism is ever "based on equality"? The only clear linking factor between these apparently "good" nationalisms is that they promote other left wing political objectives, in particular prior to 1990 the USSR's foreign policy. HMS Vanguard ( talk) 18:28, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
Nationalism is seperatist. It supports political divisions, based upon some (usually fairly arbitrary) distinction between people. It may be geographic, or racial, or ideological, or cultural, or whatever, and it may be somewhat permeable, but without the notion of difference nationalism falls apart. I'm sure many do also support other seperatist groups forming other exclusive political structures, but I'm not sure how this changes that. Many white nationalists, who want to deport all recent immigrants and their families, are happy for these people to build ethno-centrist fortresses in their own "native homelands", but it seems pretty ridiculous to me to classify this as an ideology "based on equality". HMS Vanguard ( talk) 07:27, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
Based on equality and not racism? That is bogus. Left nationalism is based on minority dominance such as the Nation of Islam and the Black Panthers.
98.87.102.239 ( talk) 15:04, 7 June 2011 (UTC)
The Nation of Islam is a racist and islamist movement, which isnt left-wing at all.
The first faction that is punished by Stalinist regime is National Communism. Their leader was Sultan Galiev and he was accused of being a Pan-Turkist. Although Stalin himself promoted Russian nationalism, he declared that that was Soviet patriotism and other lef-wing nationalists of Tatars, Turks, Georgians or Ukranians were rectionary chauvinists. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.102.196.180 ( talk) 20:04, 9 July 2010 (UTC)
Actually Galiev was a religious (islamic) and nationalistic Socialist. And Ceausescu promoted Romanian Nationalism too like Hoxha promoted Albanian Nationalism and Mao did the same with Chinese Nationalism. The regime in North Korea is also nationalistic.-- Bernd Winterstille ( talk) 12:14, 31 May 2015 (UTC)
Nasser was a Leftwing Nationalist too.-- Bernd Winterstille ( talk) 12:14, 31 May 2015 (UTC)
Is this the same movement? Or the Fascist wing of this movement (strongly attacked by Americans, but not in Ireland)? Probably. The French Wikipedia says: "Le nationalisme de gauche peut se décliner sous des formes autoritaires." — Preceding unsigned comment added by Marcin862 ( talk • contribs) 08:43, 6 March 2016 (UTC)
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82.160.114.5 ( talk) 10:03, 5 March 2016 (UTC)
I believe experts are required. -- Lestaad ( talk) 06:08, 8 July 2016 (UTC)
The whole Communist party in Poland was somewhat in this movement. Did this lead to the anti-Jewish purge in 1968? Is this movement anti-Semitic? For example, Chavez in Venezuela - Jews have enormous problems there. Marcin862 ( talk) 11:48, 6 February 2017 (UTC) Belarus now? This is connected with the whole non-aligned movement, the third way, once strong, now weaker under the impact of globalization, capitalism. /info/en/?search=Non-Aligned_Movement
the nato is left-wing national — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.51.66.61 ( talk) 02:36, 1 March 2017 (UTC)
The current North American section is only representing Canada, and I believe that there were active left-wing nationalists in the US. The cousins Francis and Edward Bellamy are prime examples. Francis wrote the Pledge of Allegiance and Edward started a "Nationalist" movement in the late 1800s. Below I list sources and block-quotes that back up these assertions:
Francis Bellamy [10]
Francis Julius Bellamy (May 18, 1855 – August 28, 1931) was an American Baptist minister and Christian Socialist[1] who wrote the original Pledge of Allegiance in 1892.
Edward Bellamy [11]
Edward Bellamy was born March 26, 1850 in Chicoppee Falls, Massachusetts. Son and grandson of Baptist ministers, Bellamy studied law and worked briefly in the newspaper industry in New York and in Springfield, Massachusetts. Although he published four novels and several essays in his lifetime, he is remembered most for his 1888 work Looking Backward, 2000-1887 and it was this novel which influenced the formation of the Nationalist political movement and several accompanying utopian living experiments during the 1890's. The novel became so popular that by 1900 only Uncle Tom's Cabin had sold more copies.
Looking Backward, certainly considered by many as within the genre of utopian fiction, anticipates a future America (the year 2000) of nationalized industry, equal distribution of wealth and the destruction of class divisions--this vision counters the problems Bellamy saw with his contemporary society. In this utopian world, loyalty to the solidarity of the state holds the society together. Bellamy called this philosophy Nationalism. Although his fictional story in Looking Backward is unique, Bellamy owes much of the philosophy behind his vision to an earlier social reformer and author, Laurence Gronlund, who published his treatise The Cooperative Commonwealth: An Exposition of Modern Socialism in 1884. Bellamy's novel gained so much attention after it was published, Gronlund stopped the distribution of his work and endorsed Bellamy's vision as the means to a new socialist society. The combined vision of Gronlund, Bellamy and the soon to be formed Nationalist movement helped to spark several utopian living experiments during the decade.
By late 1888, the first of the Bellamy Nationalist Clubs was formed and the movement soon spread across the country attracting such notable personalities as authors William Dean Howells and Edward Everett Hale. The main purpose of the clubs was to create and promote the practical realization of Bellamy's utopian vision. Members became involved with other reform political groups and the Nationalists were represented at the 1891 Populist Party convention. Eugene Debs, the up and coming Socialist leader, also advocated some of Bellamy's programs. However, the Nationalist movement stressed an evolutionary not revolutionary approach to social change. A small group of educated leaders, not masses of laborers or workers, would usher in the new society. This attitude alienated some of the more radical Socialist and Populist supporters of Nationalism. Despite temporary solidarity with these groups, the Nationalist movement lost popularity and was essentially dead by 1894.
So if nothing else, I nominate that the Bellamy cousins be added to this article.
DaveRazz ( talk) 00:24, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: no consensus to move the page to the proposed title at this time, per the discussion below. Dekimasu よ! 18:07, 7 January 2019 (UTC)
Left-wing nationalism → Socialist nationalism – As this article is the oldest with this name (which made others copy the title), I request the motion. Apparently this title only fits in the United States, it is misplaced to say without sources that in the rest of the world the left does not result in socialism. Also the article does not speak of the United States and it is rash that this title with so much less results in google remains on the pretext of the politically correct. Even in the States in the we're future this is not going to happen, even in the United States there are strong socialists like Bernie Sanders. 2804:14C:5BB5:91BD:4455:ACEA:6507:FFC7 ( talk) 07:53, 31 December 2018 (UTC) --Relisting. SITH (talk) 09:42, 7 January 2019 (UTC)
Most groups and people that currently refer to themselves as "social nationalist" are not left-wing in character and often align closely with National Socialist ideology or other forms of Third Position, being in that sphere of politics rather than being influenced by Marx or being leftist at all. For example: The Ukrainian Social-National Assembly, the Syrian Social Nationalist Party, the Social-National Party of Ukraine, as well as others that ascribe to many Third Position beliefs in the current age labeling themselves as social nationalists. It may have been the case a century ago where social nationalism was a term for various left-wing nationalists, but that is an outdated meaning to a word that is still in use today. I would recommend that "social nationalism" be removed as an alternate term for left-wing nationalism and instead create a wiki article about social nationalism in particular describing what it means currently and clearing up any premonitions where people might believe that it refers to left-wing nationalism, at least in today's world. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.243.81.22 ( talk) 13:32, 9 February 2020 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
The subject matter of this article is really a subset of economic nationalism, and it should incorporated into that article (despite the fact that the latter isn't in such great shape itself). – SJL 05:00, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
Many sources furnished on the AfD page. Term is over 80 years old, found in well over six hundred books, and literally thousands of learned articles. Collect ( talk) 20:31, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
write a paragraph about the diferences of Left-wing nationalism and National Sociolism (Naziism) cause a lot of peple don't see it... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.216.89.205 ( talk) 16:03, 13 August 2009 (UTC) Lenf Wing Nationalism and Nazism are indeed different. Nazism fits more into the Fascism category of political ideologies, while Left Wing Nationalism has been historically charactesized by Communism and Stalinism. FAscism and Nazism are separate at the moment, and Nazism has its own seperate article, therefore there is no need to state any difference at the moment. If you would like to tedit the article and, with sources, explain the difference, it would be great. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.205.75.12 ( talk) 23:54, 5 November 2009 (UTC)
This article meets notability standards, and is not a "dictionary entry." This is a distinct topic, with a great ddeal of material which has been in it. Oppose merge. Collect ( talk) 16:58, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
I oppose the merge but I also think that it is important to recognise that both types are nationalism. It would be lying to say that they are the same or that they are completly diffrent. While Wikipedia is not a dictionary it is important to relise that people will want to research things separetly. If you are doing something on right-wing nationalism then you don't want to read through alot of stuff on left wing nationalism and vise verser. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Golden Bookworm ( talk • contribs) 00:16, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
I have removed all sections that lacked any references. The Four Deuces ( talk) 02:57, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
I wrote a lead to describe the concept developed by the Milners in 1973 which they called "left-wing nationalism". The Four Deuces ( talk) 18:11, 6 December 2009 (UTC)
The definition in the lead is not supported by the source, which is a chapter called Nationalism and the Left. [4] In fact the term appears nowhere in the book. The only definition I could find for the term was from the Milners who wrote about Quebec. But it excludes most of the political groups described in the article. I will therefore put up an original research tag. The Four Deuces ( talk) 10:29, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
These are the sections that I used for the definition.-- R-41 ( talk) 16:16, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
(out) Political thought in Canada uses the term left nationalism to describe nationalism in Quebec, which is the subject of the Milner's book. "The revival of Black nationalism" describes nationalism among African Americans which was also discussed in the Milners' book. The use of the term in Specters of 1919 seems similar to the use in the Milners' book: "The "left" nationalism of the Bolsheviks, calling for colonial emancipation from imperialism..." although it seems they were at core leftists who used nationalism for political advantage. In any case none of these sources provide a definition. The Four Deuces ( talk) 21:43, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
This article reads more like a political polemic than anything. Is anyone going to seriously argue that nationalism is ever "based on equality"? The only clear linking factor between these apparently "good" nationalisms is that they promote other left wing political objectives, in particular prior to 1990 the USSR's foreign policy. HMS Vanguard ( talk) 18:28, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
Nationalism is seperatist. It supports political divisions, based upon some (usually fairly arbitrary) distinction between people. It may be geographic, or racial, or ideological, or cultural, or whatever, and it may be somewhat permeable, but without the notion of difference nationalism falls apart. I'm sure many do also support other seperatist groups forming other exclusive political structures, but I'm not sure how this changes that. Many white nationalists, who want to deport all recent immigrants and their families, are happy for these people to build ethno-centrist fortresses in their own "native homelands", but it seems pretty ridiculous to me to classify this as an ideology "based on equality". HMS Vanguard ( talk) 07:27, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
Based on equality and not racism? That is bogus. Left nationalism is based on minority dominance such as the Nation of Islam and the Black Panthers.
98.87.102.239 ( talk) 15:04, 7 June 2011 (UTC)
The Nation of Islam is a racist and islamist movement, which isnt left-wing at all.
The first faction that is punished by Stalinist regime is National Communism. Their leader was Sultan Galiev and he was accused of being a Pan-Turkist. Although Stalin himself promoted Russian nationalism, he declared that that was Soviet patriotism and other lef-wing nationalists of Tatars, Turks, Georgians or Ukranians were rectionary chauvinists. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.102.196.180 ( talk) 20:04, 9 July 2010 (UTC)
Actually Galiev was a religious (islamic) and nationalistic Socialist. And Ceausescu promoted Romanian Nationalism too like Hoxha promoted Albanian Nationalism and Mao did the same with Chinese Nationalism. The regime in North Korea is also nationalistic.-- Bernd Winterstille ( talk) 12:14, 31 May 2015 (UTC)
Nasser was a Leftwing Nationalist too.-- Bernd Winterstille ( talk) 12:14, 31 May 2015 (UTC)
Is this the same movement? Or the Fascist wing of this movement (strongly attacked by Americans, but not in Ireland)? Probably. The French Wikipedia says: "Le nationalisme de gauche peut se décliner sous des formes autoritaires." — Preceding unsigned comment added by Marcin862 ( talk • contribs) 08:43, 6 March 2016 (UTC)
F
N
T
E
F
H
I
J
M
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P
R
S
82.160.114.5 ( talk) 10:03, 5 March 2016 (UTC)
I believe experts are required. -- Lestaad ( talk) 06:08, 8 July 2016 (UTC)
The whole Communist party in Poland was somewhat in this movement. Did this lead to the anti-Jewish purge in 1968? Is this movement anti-Semitic? For example, Chavez in Venezuela - Jews have enormous problems there. Marcin862 ( talk) 11:48, 6 February 2017 (UTC) Belarus now? This is connected with the whole non-aligned movement, the third way, once strong, now weaker under the impact of globalization, capitalism. /info/en/?search=Non-Aligned_Movement
the nato is left-wing national — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.51.66.61 ( talk) 02:36, 1 March 2017 (UTC)
The current North American section is only representing Canada, and I believe that there were active left-wing nationalists in the US. The cousins Francis and Edward Bellamy are prime examples. Francis wrote the Pledge of Allegiance and Edward started a "Nationalist" movement in the late 1800s. Below I list sources and block-quotes that back up these assertions:
Francis Bellamy [10]
Francis Julius Bellamy (May 18, 1855 – August 28, 1931) was an American Baptist minister and Christian Socialist[1] who wrote the original Pledge of Allegiance in 1892.
Edward Bellamy [11]
Edward Bellamy was born March 26, 1850 in Chicoppee Falls, Massachusetts. Son and grandson of Baptist ministers, Bellamy studied law and worked briefly in the newspaper industry in New York and in Springfield, Massachusetts. Although he published four novels and several essays in his lifetime, he is remembered most for his 1888 work Looking Backward, 2000-1887 and it was this novel which influenced the formation of the Nationalist political movement and several accompanying utopian living experiments during the 1890's. The novel became so popular that by 1900 only Uncle Tom's Cabin had sold more copies.
Looking Backward, certainly considered by many as within the genre of utopian fiction, anticipates a future America (the year 2000) of nationalized industry, equal distribution of wealth and the destruction of class divisions--this vision counters the problems Bellamy saw with his contemporary society. In this utopian world, loyalty to the solidarity of the state holds the society together. Bellamy called this philosophy Nationalism. Although his fictional story in Looking Backward is unique, Bellamy owes much of the philosophy behind his vision to an earlier social reformer and author, Laurence Gronlund, who published his treatise The Cooperative Commonwealth: An Exposition of Modern Socialism in 1884. Bellamy's novel gained so much attention after it was published, Gronlund stopped the distribution of his work and endorsed Bellamy's vision as the means to a new socialist society. The combined vision of Gronlund, Bellamy and the soon to be formed Nationalist movement helped to spark several utopian living experiments during the decade.
By late 1888, the first of the Bellamy Nationalist Clubs was formed and the movement soon spread across the country attracting such notable personalities as authors William Dean Howells and Edward Everett Hale. The main purpose of the clubs was to create and promote the practical realization of Bellamy's utopian vision. Members became involved with other reform political groups and the Nationalists were represented at the 1891 Populist Party convention. Eugene Debs, the up and coming Socialist leader, also advocated some of Bellamy's programs. However, the Nationalist movement stressed an evolutionary not revolutionary approach to social change. A small group of educated leaders, not masses of laborers or workers, would usher in the new society. This attitude alienated some of the more radical Socialist and Populist supporters of Nationalism. Despite temporary solidarity with these groups, the Nationalist movement lost popularity and was essentially dead by 1894.
So if nothing else, I nominate that the Bellamy cousins be added to this article.
DaveRazz ( talk) 00:24, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: no consensus to move the page to the proposed title at this time, per the discussion below. Dekimasu よ! 18:07, 7 January 2019 (UTC)
Left-wing nationalism → Socialist nationalism – As this article is the oldest with this name (which made others copy the title), I request the motion. Apparently this title only fits in the United States, it is misplaced to say without sources that in the rest of the world the left does not result in socialism. Also the article does not speak of the United States and it is rash that this title with so much less results in google remains on the pretext of the politically correct. Even in the States in the we're future this is not going to happen, even in the United States there are strong socialists like Bernie Sanders. 2804:14C:5BB5:91BD:4455:ACEA:6507:FFC7 ( talk) 07:53, 31 December 2018 (UTC) --Relisting. SITH (talk) 09:42, 7 January 2019 (UTC)
Most groups and people that currently refer to themselves as "social nationalist" are not left-wing in character and often align closely with National Socialist ideology or other forms of Third Position, being in that sphere of politics rather than being influenced by Marx or being leftist at all. For example: The Ukrainian Social-National Assembly, the Syrian Social Nationalist Party, the Social-National Party of Ukraine, as well as others that ascribe to many Third Position beliefs in the current age labeling themselves as social nationalists. It may have been the case a century ago where social nationalism was a term for various left-wing nationalists, but that is an outdated meaning to a word that is still in use today. I would recommend that "social nationalism" be removed as an alternate term for left-wing nationalism and instead create a wiki article about social nationalism in particular describing what it means currently and clearing up any premonitions where people might believe that it refers to left-wing nationalism, at least in today's world. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.243.81.22 ( talk) 13:32, 9 February 2020 (UTC)