This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
This new version of the article is 100 % western, I don't like it. ~August
The focus now is on self vs. collective. That is western. Eastern is yin and yang style, passive/active, the quick easy way or the way of strife and effort, intuition or logic, kundalini or hatha yoga, nerves or muscles. ~August
Again. This is absolutely brilliant work. I appreciate keeping the list of religions in either column, as it preserves some of the original article and is a good primer for the belief system these words are a part of. Re- August, the focus is now on fact, which is the m.o. here. db 09:25, Jul 28, 2004 (UTC)
Is
Vajrayana really Left-Hand Path? I have been practing at one such center and it sure does not seem to be the case. I do not deny the existence of LHV, but it is certainly not the only variety, and probably isn't even the most widespread. Similarly, I don't think
Mahayana Buddhism qualifies as LHP either, although by definition
Hinayana would.
Luis Dantas 17:37, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Reply to Luis Dantas: Specifically, Kargyu and Nyingma, both parts of Vajrayana, are definitely LHP - and Tatar Lamaism (or Shamanism) is also LHP and quite different from Tibetan "Buddhism" despite its being lumped in with it and despite the two people often sharing temples in the USA where some of both groups immigrated. In the Tatar Buddhism/Lamaism, for example, warriors and war lords (such as Temujin "Jenghis Khan" and Amursana) are given the status of Khutukhtu (Living Gods). There are absolutely no prohibitions against eating anything, especially meat, or drinking anything, including kumiss - a beverage that makes 100 proof Vodka seem tame. Social customs do not infringe on the religion at all. There are laws, not taboos. A law breaker faces jail, very practical. A law breaker may be an Adept. It doesn't matter. LHP is the way of yin, of the inner or hidden. RHP is the way of yang or outer path. From T. Jantsang
I never heard of anyone calling Shamanism LHP. Luis Dantas 22:09, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
please read "At the left hand of God" by Robert.E Svaboda" to understand the left hand path.
It is inappropriate to include bible quotes on a Left-hand Path page. It would be akin to me placing pro Satanic passages on a Christian page. I am removing them. Magialuna 13:03, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
The Svaboda trilogy is available online. Do a torrent search using keywords Occult Digest and you should find it. estéban ( talk) 20:39, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
LHP, in its old form, ment to be completely immersed in the physical, material world. RHP was for ascetics. But in today's, more mature, and spiritually guided occult world, it has come to mean much more. But, luckily for everyone, I can sum it up in one simple right vs. left: RHP submits to, and follows the jews. LHP take the Path of Satan (literally Adversary in Hebrew) and refuse to submit to the jews, nor recognize any divinity within them. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
173.125.156.29 (
talk)
03:22, 23 January 2010 (UTC)
@ AD64: There is a lot of opinion being vollied around here (talk page and article). Speaking specifically to the eastern definitions here, Vajrayana is not inherently left or right handed. The distinction, which is technical mostly to Hindu tantric practices, describes those groups that use the ritual of the five 'm's which includes the drinking of alcohol, ritual sex with a prostitute, eating meat, eating fish, and 'mudra' which can be understood here as either roasted grain, hand gestures, or according to Christopher Chapple: hand-based sex. In sanskrit these are Mamsa Matsya Madhu/Madhira, Mudra and Maithuna. Vajrayana, like all the right hand path schools of India, comes from a tradition in which these elements mostly became symbolic and not literal, sterilized in tibetan tradition by Tsongkhapa and the Indian tradition by gorakshanath. In essence, the Indic understanding of right hand path means tantrism that does not take the 5 'm's ritual literally. If your ritual yubyum (intercourse) is imagined, its right handed, if its literal then its left handed. If you drink and eat meat normally, that is not left handed, it's only the ritual use of it for liberation that matters. People practicing bhakti and eating steak aren't left handed tantrics, their just omnivores. Vajrayana has both, but the majority is the tame right handed path, while the left handed path is the charnal ground cults such as the Kubjika and Tripura Sundari cults before the reformation of Kaulism under Gorakshanath that led to haṭha yoga internalizing the 5 'm's in mudra practice calling the tongue the meat and the amrta (which mallinson considers to be saliva) the liquor. Everything on here seems to be based on western occultists' misinterpretations of a subject that has been spelled out in great academic detail. There is not one reliable citation behind any of the eastern notions on this page. And equating the two is Original Research which is not the purview of the wiki editor. Their only historical connection with western occultism is that western neo-occultists stole terminology from eastern mysticism because they were terrible academics. This is why I think this page should just be about western occultism and let the vamachara and dakshinachara pages explain the eastern notion. And all the talk about Astika and Nastika doesn't hold true if we are talking about Buddhist tantra as well, because left and right handed tantric buddhism are both still Nastikas to the Hindu Darshans. Frankly, the errors are too much to remove without simply rewriting, which seems a less than worthwhile endeavor since the accurate information is already in its proper place on the wiki. Iṣṭa Devatā ( talk) 08:52, 4 May 2016 (UTC)
I've reworded the following sentence
Conversely, "Left-Hand Path" belief systems value the advancement and preservation of the self, glorification of more temporal and terrestrial goals, and personal power through spiritual attainments; generally seeking guidance of one or more deities in theistic practices or with self-driven guidance of human instincts in atheistic ones.
It now reads:
Conversely, the "Left-Hand Path" belief systems value the advancement and preservation of the self, as well as the pursuit of temporal and terrestrial goals. These goals are achieved either by seeking the guidance of one or more deities via theistic practices, or more commonly, via non-theistic uses of instincts and logic.
It may not be perfect, but it's more accurate, I believe. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.119.126.195 ( talk) 07:00, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
Removed from the article:
In recent practice, Gnostic Master Samael Aun Weor introduced the term "sex magic" in explicit reference to tantra in his 1950 publication of The Perfect Matrimony: Tantra, The Door to Initiation. Although he does not refer explicitly to the Right Hand Path (RHP) or Left Hand Path (LHP), it is clear from his over 50 books that "white sex magic" (without spilling the semen) and "black sex magic" (spilling semen) refer, respectively, to the RHP and LHP. (Samael Aun Weor advocates "scientific chastity" in tantra and abstinence from alcohol, but does not require strict vegetarianism. A limited form of animal sacrifice [i.e., consumption] is necessary to perform the Gnostic Work of white tantric sex magic; and cannibalism is not allowed!)
Problems:
-- FOo 04:55, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Can discordianism really be defined as left-hand path religion? There is a goddess. Also note the things said about the pentagon in the picture description of the sacred chao in the discordianism article. Are they factual?
I'm not sure if it's just me, but this article seems to be a little POV in the sense that followers of the "left hand path" are portrayed as self-absorbed satanic occultist nutjobs, and followers of the "right hand path" as kind, loving, good people.
The left / right hand path division has far more to do with deviating from social norms than moral issues. Followers of the "right hand path" tend to view deviation from social norms as immoral, but that does not make it so. Likewise (as mentioned), followers of the "left hand path" tend to view followers of the "right hand path" as closed-minded sheep. -- Thoric 23:05, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
AFAIK the LHP and RHP concepts _are_ a recent, western invention, so there _are_ no long established LHP religions. If there are, the article should make an effort to leave that clear. Thelemites and others often make claims related to ancient cults, but to the best of my knowledge that is just a marketing strategy with little or no substance.
And of course a LHP religion would not condone what _it_ considers immoral activities; _that_ would be the mark of a nutjob (more technically, a schizophrenic) belief. Luis Dantas 05:53, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
I'm a Muslim and i've never heard of a taboo against touching religious texts with the left hand.
There are several hadith urging believers to "clean" themselves (so to speak) with the left hand and identifying the left hand as an "unclean" hand. The Qu'ran (I believe, please correct me if I'm wrong) contains a directive to not eat or touch holy texts with "unclean hands" this I believe is the source of the "taboo" mentioned in the article. However, that is original research and honestly I could be wrong, is their someone with a better knowledge of Islamic taboos/laws that we could defer to? -Anymouse
Atheists often also see this as a false dichotomy, and they (obviously) do not partake in any religion. I've reworded it slightly to reflect this.
I just corrected a minor mistake in this part of the article. Crowley did, in fact, use the term "Left-Hand Path" in isolation (namely, when writing on his copy of Mein Kampf), according to Lawrence Sutin. Dan 18:48, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
There is a chapter called left hand path in "Magick without tears" Crowley goes into the subject quite extensively and it is nothing like the presesnt article. He also discusses LHP through the chapters on magickal schools. Just trying to help. Here is a link to a pdf for those that do not own a copy of the book. http://www.hermetic.com/crowley/mwt_contents.html Rev. Michael S. Margolin 07:02, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
To my knowledge, the eastern view is that on the wheel of eighty four (administered by Kal Niranjan) there are those who assist in bonding souls to the material plane. They do this by slight of hand, Left Hand Path sociaties being a prime example. For this they are given material recompence (this being the lowest plane.) Each plane is dual in nature and has either dual gardians or dual aspects of a guardian (Kal and Shiva in the case of the material plane) An important aspect to note is that Brothers of the Left Hand Path cannot ascend above the material plane and are doomed to return to the wheel over and over until they eventualy become Brothers of the Right Hand Path (as has been documented) Also I would like to say to seekers, do not worry overly about what the eastern view on these things is because the Eastern View would be that "WHEN THE STUDENT IS READY THE MASTER APPEARS" an Eastern and Western occult truth.
Eritus sicut Deus, scientes bonum et malum (Ye shall be as Gods, knowing good and evil)
Deus Malum
The usage of the term "left-hand path" is centuries older than Blavatsky, so to credit her as the originator of the phrase is incorrect. The root of the term is in Hindu Tantra, and Blavatsky and Crowley certainly first took the term from there. -- Snowgrouse 09:00, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
I will do some searching in Blavatsky over the weekend. I also seem to recall that Paschal Beverly Randolph may have used the term. He certainly was considered an important figure in the evolution of sex magic as used in modern ceremonial magical systems.
I think that Snowgrouse may have a good point regarding Blavatsky. I also do not think that she originated the terms. The original source was surely tantric. But Blavatsky may have adopted the terms in the course of her own studies, incorporating them into her own works, where they were picked up by others in the Western magical tradition.
I also do not like the paragraph discussing Choronzon and the 11th Sephira. I think that the paragraph comes across as too technical, and needs to be explicated more simply. estéban ( talk) 20:32, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
I've added the word "occidental" to the Blavatsky section and prefaced it with the wiki description of Vamachara. I figure it's contextual and chronological. I also suggest removing that last section "Usage in Tantra" as this Origin section's mention of Vamachara would make it redundant, also this final section "Usage in Tantra" currently reads with bias; I have also addressed bias within a reference attachment to Vamamarga linked to Kaula. ( talk) 14:15, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
"Much of this has been contributed by the practice in many cultures of using the left hand to cleanse oneself, thus making the hand "unclean"." That bit makes it sound like using the left hand to cleanse oneself is some kind of ritual exorcism of evil spirits with the left hand or something. But I always thought the reason why desert tribes had this left-right hand thing was because there was no toilet paper in the desert? I think we can remove the quotes around unclean.
Although I'm right-handed, I use my left hand to masturbate. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.205.219.29 ( talk) 06:19, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
the 'order of the left handed path' needs to be REcreated (unless someone can pull up the old) and be made a subset of this. the ORDER of the left is FAR more direct than merely being left handed. they focus on deception - and ending religion (christianity in partic). any work would be most appreciated. :D
Need to integrate this article into Left/Right in a neutral way, with connotations of leftness then bolted on top of this 80.229.47.244 22:29, 1 November 2007 (UTC)jago25
Lacking in citations. Without inline citations the reference list constitutes further reading at this point. Without specific citations to support this analysis it is potentially an WP:OR article. Any chance the sources can be cited to validate the content? Personally, I also think the title of the article is problematic, might be better, in the long run, having an article entitled Left Hand Path and then discuss the right hand path in the context of this subject. Or, simply create another article called Right Hand Path article and link in the text of each, any opinions on this??? Semitransgenic ( talk) 13:04, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
I quote from the article:
Consequently, the left hand has often symbolized the rejection of traditional religion, which is most often characterized by the Right-Hand Path. The distinction most likely is that the Right-Hand Path is the path to (or communication with) a different plane of existence, whereas the Left-Hand Path is the path to (or a communication with) this plane of existence. We're considered to be "down here" and divinities are considered to be "up there".
(The terms "left" and "right" as applied to politics have a different origin. They are derived from the seating in the French Legislative Assembly in 1791.)
I know this is extremely over-generalized and vague---and runs the risk of offending many practioners of the LHP, as well as hostile critics who will say it is unsourced or irrelevent---but in a nutshell, all things "Right" throughout history have been associated with masculinity, heaven/sky, spirit, morality, the existing power-structure in society, discipline, self-denial, honor, glory, military, hard work, in short, with conservatism (traditional authority & authoritarianism), while all things "Left" have been associated (variously) with femininity, ground/earth, body, hedonism, revolutionary/rebel movements, indulgence, self-gratification, dishonor, grossness, Intelligentsia, laziness, in short, with liberalism and/or libertarianism. These are the true Satanic or LHP qualities, and no one need be ashamed of them, but feel proud to reclaim them from centuries of false-guilt and shame heaped upon them by the proponents of the RHP. This is also parallel to the historic battle between "Gods and Giants", first noted by Plato in The Sophist, with himself and all the other RHPers (such as Pythagoras and could be extended out in time to include Buddha, Christ, Kant, Hitler, etc.) fighting on the side of the RHP heavenly Gods against the LHP Earth-Giants (which include the Sophists, Democritus, Epicurus, and extending to include Hume, Marx, Darwin, Nietzsche, Freud, Russell). Here's an excellent external link: [1]
I've seen the term generational Satanism applied to the concepts of Left-Hand Path and Right-Hand Path. There should probably be more information about this term and how it is related to these occult paths. ADM ( talk) 17:40, 9 August 2009 (UTC)
The terms Left Hand and Right Hand "Path" are used in several different and separate systems. Therefore many of the usages and adaptions [u]might[/u] not have a common context. This will help the reader understand why some of the material does not homogonise easily. As these developments are parallel it can be interesting to compare them but in doing so please recall that comparison does not guarantee consistency, especially in derived philosophies. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.79.198.52 ( talk) 23:00, 3 July 2010 (UTC)
from Mike: I have absolutely no idea what you people are talking about, but if this is your fact: "The terms Left-Hand Path and Right-Hand Path are a dichotomy between two opposing philosophies found in the Western Esoteric Tradition, which itself covers various groups involved in the occult and ceremonial magic." then the one who wrote "Other RHP traditions include most of Taoism, Hinduism, Buddhism, Shinto, and all other Dharmic religions." has a wrong perception of these eastern concepts. It seems like the first 'discussor' is right, this is more of a western approach... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.148.81.16 ( talk) 11:43, 25 January 2011 (UTC)
I'm opening a dialogue for any interested individuals who seek to debate Thelema and directly associated branches of Golden Dawn or Rosicrucianism as LHP. I have noticed persistent edits which revolve around POV hoping to use the article to argue Thelema and particular offshoots as LHP. Generally speaking and by majority of practice in Thelema, Golden Dawn, Rosicrucianism etc., these are RHP or "white-light" oriented sects among esotericism. By average hermeticists and thelemites do not debate nor contend their practices are of predominant LHP nature, to the contrary the roots of such practices are decidedly RHP in nature and action; the apparent tone throughout the article supports western esotericism, GD and Thelemic practices as passive magickal paths. Even if Thelema and Golden Dawn can be found to embrace minor aspects of LHP, by and large these aspects are not crucial nor foundational to their passive magickal intent. Blackson ( talk) 10:35, 8 October 2012 (UTC)
I'm of the opinion that the tantra references don't belong here. This page would be more concise if it stuck to the western occult traditions. The sections in question are well written, but would be better placed within their own pages which are currently under utilised. That could keep this more comprehensively about western occult traditions since the connections between the two are all either theoretical or modern appropriations. It would be better to have a section about orientalism and the appropriation of 'exotic mysticism' by people like Crowley Blavatsky and Samael to make the distinction clearer. Iṣṭa Devatā ( talk) 22:46, 19 December 2015 (UTC)
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
This new version of the article is 100 % western, I don't like it. ~August
The focus now is on self vs. collective. That is western. Eastern is yin and yang style, passive/active, the quick easy way or the way of strife and effort, intuition or logic, kundalini or hatha yoga, nerves or muscles. ~August
Again. This is absolutely brilliant work. I appreciate keeping the list of religions in either column, as it preserves some of the original article and is a good primer for the belief system these words are a part of. Re- August, the focus is now on fact, which is the m.o. here. db 09:25, Jul 28, 2004 (UTC)
Is
Vajrayana really Left-Hand Path? I have been practing at one such center and it sure does not seem to be the case. I do not deny the existence of LHV, but it is certainly not the only variety, and probably isn't even the most widespread. Similarly, I don't think
Mahayana Buddhism qualifies as LHP either, although by definition
Hinayana would.
Luis Dantas 17:37, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Reply to Luis Dantas: Specifically, Kargyu and Nyingma, both parts of Vajrayana, are definitely LHP - and Tatar Lamaism (or Shamanism) is also LHP and quite different from Tibetan "Buddhism" despite its being lumped in with it and despite the two people often sharing temples in the USA where some of both groups immigrated. In the Tatar Buddhism/Lamaism, for example, warriors and war lords (such as Temujin "Jenghis Khan" and Amursana) are given the status of Khutukhtu (Living Gods). There are absolutely no prohibitions against eating anything, especially meat, or drinking anything, including kumiss - a beverage that makes 100 proof Vodka seem tame. Social customs do not infringe on the religion at all. There are laws, not taboos. A law breaker faces jail, very practical. A law breaker may be an Adept. It doesn't matter. LHP is the way of yin, of the inner or hidden. RHP is the way of yang or outer path. From T. Jantsang
I never heard of anyone calling Shamanism LHP. Luis Dantas 22:09, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
please read "At the left hand of God" by Robert.E Svaboda" to understand the left hand path.
It is inappropriate to include bible quotes on a Left-hand Path page. It would be akin to me placing pro Satanic passages on a Christian page. I am removing them. Magialuna 13:03, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
The Svaboda trilogy is available online. Do a torrent search using keywords Occult Digest and you should find it. estéban ( talk) 20:39, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
LHP, in its old form, ment to be completely immersed in the physical, material world. RHP was for ascetics. But in today's, more mature, and spiritually guided occult world, it has come to mean much more. But, luckily for everyone, I can sum it up in one simple right vs. left: RHP submits to, and follows the jews. LHP take the Path of Satan (literally Adversary in Hebrew) and refuse to submit to the jews, nor recognize any divinity within them. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
173.125.156.29 (
talk)
03:22, 23 January 2010 (UTC)
@ AD64: There is a lot of opinion being vollied around here (talk page and article). Speaking specifically to the eastern definitions here, Vajrayana is not inherently left or right handed. The distinction, which is technical mostly to Hindu tantric practices, describes those groups that use the ritual of the five 'm's which includes the drinking of alcohol, ritual sex with a prostitute, eating meat, eating fish, and 'mudra' which can be understood here as either roasted grain, hand gestures, or according to Christopher Chapple: hand-based sex. In sanskrit these are Mamsa Matsya Madhu/Madhira, Mudra and Maithuna. Vajrayana, like all the right hand path schools of India, comes from a tradition in which these elements mostly became symbolic and not literal, sterilized in tibetan tradition by Tsongkhapa and the Indian tradition by gorakshanath. In essence, the Indic understanding of right hand path means tantrism that does not take the 5 'm's ritual literally. If your ritual yubyum (intercourse) is imagined, its right handed, if its literal then its left handed. If you drink and eat meat normally, that is not left handed, it's only the ritual use of it for liberation that matters. People practicing bhakti and eating steak aren't left handed tantrics, their just omnivores. Vajrayana has both, but the majority is the tame right handed path, while the left handed path is the charnal ground cults such as the Kubjika and Tripura Sundari cults before the reformation of Kaulism under Gorakshanath that led to haṭha yoga internalizing the 5 'm's in mudra practice calling the tongue the meat and the amrta (which mallinson considers to be saliva) the liquor. Everything on here seems to be based on western occultists' misinterpretations of a subject that has been spelled out in great academic detail. There is not one reliable citation behind any of the eastern notions on this page. And equating the two is Original Research which is not the purview of the wiki editor. Their only historical connection with western occultism is that western neo-occultists stole terminology from eastern mysticism because they were terrible academics. This is why I think this page should just be about western occultism and let the vamachara and dakshinachara pages explain the eastern notion. And all the talk about Astika and Nastika doesn't hold true if we are talking about Buddhist tantra as well, because left and right handed tantric buddhism are both still Nastikas to the Hindu Darshans. Frankly, the errors are too much to remove without simply rewriting, which seems a less than worthwhile endeavor since the accurate information is already in its proper place on the wiki. Iṣṭa Devatā ( talk) 08:52, 4 May 2016 (UTC)
I've reworded the following sentence
Conversely, "Left-Hand Path" belief systems value the advancement and preservation of the self, glorification of more temporal and terrestrial goals, and personal power through spiritual attainments; generally seeking guidance of one or more deities in theistic practices or with self-driven guidance of human instincts in atheistic ones.
It now reads:
Conversely, the "Left-Hand Path" belief systems value the advancement and preservation of the self, as well as the pursuit of temporal and terrestrial goals. These goals are achieved either by seeking the guidance of one or more deities via theistic practices, or more commonly, via non-theistic uses of instincts and logic.
It may not be perfect, but it's more accurate, I believe. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.119.126.195 ( talk) 07:00, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
Removed from the article:
In recent practice, Gnostic Master Samael Aun Weor introduced the term "sex magic" in explicit reference to tantra in his 1950 publication of The Perfect Matrimony: Tantra, The Door to Initiation. Although he does not refer explicitly to the Right Hand Path (RHP) or Left Hand Path (LHP), it is clear from his over 50 books that "white sex magic" (without spilling the semen) and "black sex magic" (spilling semen) refer, respectively, to the RHP and LHP. (Samael Aun Weor advocates "scientific chastity" in tantra and abstinence from alcohol, but does not require strict vegetarianism. A limited form of animal sacrifice [i.e., consumption] is necessary to perform the Gnostic Work of white tantric sex magic; and cannibalism is not allowed!)
Problems:
-- FOo 04:55, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Can discordianism really be defined as left-hand path religion? There is a goddess. Also note the things said about the pentagon in the picture description of the sacred chao in the discordianism article. Are they factual?
I'm not sure if it's just me, but this article seems to be a little POV in the sense that followers of the "left hand path" are portrayed as self-absorbed satanic occultist nutjobs, and followers of the "right hand path" as kind, loving, good people.
The left / right hand path division has far more to do with deviating from social norms than moral issues. Followers of the "right hand path" tend to view deviation from social norms as immoral, but that does not make it so. Likewise (as mentioned), followers of the "left hand path" tend to view followers of the "right hand path" as closed-minded sheep. -- Thoric 23:05, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
AFAIK the LHP and RHP concepts _are_ a recent, western invention, so there _are_ no long established LHP religions. If there are, the article should make an effort to leave that clear. Thelemites and others often make claims related to ancient cults, but to the best of my knowledge that is just a marketing strategy with little or no substance.
And of course a LHP religion would not condone what _it_ considers immoral activities; _that_ would be the mark of a nutjob (more technically, a schizophrenic) belief. Luis Dantas 05:53, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
I'm a Muslim and i've never heard of a taboo against touching religious texts with the left hand.
There are several hadith urging believers to "clean" themselves (so to speak) with the left hand and identifying the left hand as an "unclean" hand. The Qu'ran (I believe, please correct me if I'm wrong) contains a directive to not eat or touch holy texts with "unclean hands" this I believe is the source of the "taboo" mentioned in the article. However, that is original research and honestly I could be wrong, is their someone with a better knowledge of Islamic taboos/laws that we could defer to? -Anymouse
Atheists often also see this as a false dichotomy, and they (obviously) do not partake in any religion. I've reworded it slightly to reflect this.
I just corrected a minor mistake in this part of the article. Crowley did, in fact, use the term "Left-Hand Path" in isolation (namely, when writing on his copy of Mein Kampf), according to Lawrence Sutin. Dan 18:48, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
There is a chapter called left hand path in "Magick without tears" Crowley goes into the subject quite extensively and it is nothing like the presesnt article. He also discusses LHP through the chapters on magickal schools. Just trying to help. Here is a link to a pdf for those that do not own a copy of the book. http://www.hermetic.com/crowley/mwt_contents.html Rev. Michael S. Margolin 07:02, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
To my knowledge, the eastern view is that on the wheel of eighty four (administered by Kal Niranjan) there are those who assist in bonding souls to the material plane. They do this by slight of hand, Left Hand Path sociaties being a prime example. For this they are given material recompence (this being the lowest plane.) Each plane is dual in nature and has either dual gardians or dual aspects of a guardian (Kal and Shiva in the case of the material plane) An important aspect to note is that Brothers of the Left Hand Path cannot ascend above the material plane and are doomed to return to the wheel over and over until they eventualy become Brothers of the Right Hand Path (as has been documented) Also I would like to say to seekers, do not worry overly about what the eastern view on these things is because the Eastern View would be that "WHEN THE STUDENT IS READY THE MASTER APPEARS" an Eastern and Western occult truth.
Eritus sicut Deus, scientes bonum et malum (Ye shall be as Gods, knowing good and evil)
Deus Malum
The usage of the term "left-hand path" is centuries older than Blavatsky, so to credit her as the originator of the phrase is incorrect. The root of the term is in Hindu Tantra, and Blavatsky and Crowley certainly first took the term from there. -- Snowgrouse 09:00, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
I will do some searching in Blavatsky over the weekend. I also seem to recall that Paschal Beverly Randolph may have used the term. He certainly was considered an important figure in the evolution of sex magic as used in modern ceremonial magical systems.
I think that Snowgrouse may have a good point regarding Blavatsky. I also do not think that she originated the terms. The original source was surely tantric. But Blavatsky may have adopted the terms in the course of her own studies, incorporating them into her own works, where they were picked up by others in the Western magical tradition.
I also do not like the paragraph discussing Choronzon and the 11th Sephira. I think that the paragraph comes across as too technical, and needs to be explicated more simply. estéban ( talk) 20:32, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
I've added the word "occidental" to the Blavatsky section and prefaced it with the wiki description of Vamachara. I figure it's contextual and chronological. I also suggest removing that last section "Usage in Tantra" as this Origin section's mention of Vamachara would make it redundant, also this final section "Usage in Tantra" currently reads with bias; I have also addressed bias within a reference attachment to Vamamarga linked to Kaula. ( talk) 14:15, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
"Much of this has been contributed by the practice in many cultures of using the left hand to cleanse oneself, thus making the hand "unclean"." That bit makes it sound like using the left hand to cleanse oneself is some kind of ritual exorcism of evil spirits with the left hand or something. But I always thought the reason why desert tribes had this left-right hand thing was because there was no toilet paper in the desert? I think we can remove the quotes around unclean.
Although I'm right-handed, I use my left hand to masturbate. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.205.219.29 ( talk) 06:19, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
the 'order of the left handed path' needs to be REcreated (unless someone can pull up the old) and be made a subset of this. the ORDER of the left is FAR more direct than merely being left handed. they focus on deception - and ending religion (christianity in partic). any work would be most appreciated. :D
Need to integrate this article into Left/Right in a neutral way, with connotations of leftness then bolted on top of this 80.229.47.244 22:29, 1 November 2007 (UTC)jago25
Lacking in citations. Without inline citations the reference list constitutes further reading at this point. Without specific citations to support this analysis it is potentially an WP:OR article. Any chance the sources can be cited to validate the content? Personally, I also think the title of the article is problematic, might be better, in the long run, having an article entitled Left Hand Path and then discuss the right hand path in the context of this subject. Or, simply create another article called Right Hand Path article and link in the text of each, any opinions on this??? Semitransgenic ( talk) 13:04, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
I quote from the article:
Consequently, the left hand has often symbolized the rejection of traditional religion, which is most often characterized by the Right-Hand Path. The distinction most likely is that the Right-Hand Path is the path to (or communication with) a different plane of existence, whereas the Left-Hand Path is the path to (or a communication with) this plane of existence. We're considered to be "down here" and divinities are considered to be "up there".
(The terms "left" and "right" as applied to politics have a different origin. They are derived from the seating in the French Legislative Assembly in 1791.)
I know this is extremely over-generalized and vague---and runs the risk of offending many practioners of the LHP, as well as hostile critics who will say it is unsourced or irrelevent---but in a nutshell, all things "Right" throughout history have been associated with masculinity, heaven/sky, spirit, morality, the existing power-structure in society, discipline, self-denial, honor, glory, military, hard work, in short, with conservatism (traditional authority & authoritarianism), while all things "Left" have been associated (variously) with femininity, ground/earth, body, hedonism, revolutionary/rebel movements, indulgence, self-gratification, dishonor, grossness, Intelligentsia, laziness, in short, with liberalism and/or libertarianism. These are the true Satanic or LHP qualities, and no one need be ashamed of them, but feel proud to reclaim them from centuries of false-guilt and shame heaped upon them by the proponents of the RHP. This is also parallel to the historic battle between "Gods and Giants", first noted by Plato in The Sophist, with himself and all the other RHPers (such as Pythagoras and could be extended out in time to include Buddha, Christ, Kant, Hitler, etc.) fighting on the side of the RHP heavenly Gods against the LHP Earth-Giants (which include the Sophists, Democritus, Epicurus, and extending to include Hume, Marx, Darwin, Nietzsche, Freud, Russell). Here's an excellent external link: [1]
I've seen the term generational Satanism applied to the concepts of Left-Hand Path and Right-Hand Path. There should probably be more information about this term and how it is related to these occult paths. ADM ( talk) 17:40, 9 August 2009 (UTC)
The terms Left Hand and Right Hand "Path" are used in several different and separate systems. Therefore many of the usages and adaptions [u]might[/u] not have a common context. This will help the reader understand why some of the material does not homogonise easily. As these developments are parallel it can be interesting to compare them but in doing so please recall that comparison does not guarantee consistency, especially in derived philosophies. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.79.198.52 ( talk) 23:00, 3 July 2010 (UTC)
from Mike: I have absolutely no idea what you people are talking about, but if this is your fact: "The terms Left-Hand Path and Right-Hand Path are a dichotomy between two opposing philosophies found in the Western Esoteric Tradition, which itself covers various groups involved in the occult and ceremonial magic." then the one who wrote "Other RHP traditions include most of Taoism, Hinduism, Buddhism, Shinto, and all other Dharmic religions." has a wrong perception of these eastern concepts. It seems like the first 'discussor' is right, this is more of a western approach... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.148.81.16 ( talk) 11:43, 25 January 2011 (UTC)
I'm opening a dialogue for any interested individuals who seek to debate Thelema and directly associated branches of Golden Dawn or Rosicrucianism as LHP. I have noticed persistent edits which revolve around POV hoping to use the article to argue Thelema and particular offshoots as LHP. Generally speaking and by majority of practice in Thelema, Golden Dawn, Rosicrucianism etc., these are RHP or "white-light" oriented sects among esotericism. By average hermeticists and thelemites do not debate nor contend their practices are of predominant LHP nature, to the contrary the roots of such practices are decidedly RHP in nature and action; the apparent tone throughout the article supports western esotericism, GD and Thelemic practices as passive magickal paths. Even if Thelema and Golden Dawn can be found to embrace minor aspects of LHP, by and large these aspects are not crucial nor foundational to their passive magickal intent. Blackson ( talk) 10:35, 8 October 2012 (UTC)
I'm of the opinion that the tantra references don't belong here. This page would be more concise if it stuck to the western occult traditions. The sections in question are well written, but would be better placed within their own pages which are currently under utilised. That could keep this more comprehensively about western occult traditions since the connections between the two are all either theoretical or modern appropriations. It would be better to have a section about orientalism and the appropriation of 'exotic mysticism' by people like Crowley Blavatsky and Samael to make the distinction clearer. Iṣṭa Devatā ( talk) 22:46, 19 December 2015 (UTC)