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There are currently two official Lebanese Forces websites. At the moment everyone keeps changing the links from lebanese-forces.org to lebanese-forces.com and vice versa. I believe BOTH official sites should be listed. This will be fair to both sides. -- usurp 13:15, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
Was just reading the NPOV and I believe wikipedia should have a neutral point of view on this issue and not be biased towards either side. Readers should be aware of the two websites. I also just invited the wiki user Fadib83 to this discussion since he continues to remove the link to the other official site. I am hoping we can resolve this issue here and not continue to revert each others changes. -- usurp 07:39, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
Does anyone recall that an organization has 2 official sites with the same title? Obviously, there is a problem between both sides. The Lebanese Forces responsibles that I have contacted said that the LF website "www.lebanese-forces.com" is the only OFFICIAL website of the party. The other one is held by an individual person that supported the LF for years (and maybe is still supporting it). A divergence in the different points of view resulted in that he refuses to remove the mention "Official" from the title of his website. On the other hand, when Wikipedia publishes an article about the LF, I think it should only contain an external link to the official site. Thus I suggest that no blogs should be linked to. The article must be edited in a formal way. Fadib83 10:39, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
Dear Fadi,
The Lebanese-forces.org was founded in 1996 and declared the LF official site.
It has kept the LF Cause and the LF thought intact throughout the years and kept demanding for Hakim's release while other LFers were busy 'exploiting' Hakim's suffering.
What happened almost 2 years ago is that few LFers initiated a fight with the Lebanese-forces.org team and decided to open another 'official' site and launched a war on that other site and exploited their close ties to Hakim to proclaim the site as unofficial.
Hakim is not aware of what is happening online, and the administrator of the lebanese-forces.org site dispatched a letter to Hakim and is still awaiting his response.
Meanwhile, the Lebanese-forces.org will remain official and if the other site insists, it can call itself official as well, L-F.org is not suing anyone or claiming anything unlike what the moderators and administrators of the other site are doing.
The solution is in the hands of Hakim, so there is no point in debating that issue.
Regards, -- N10452 16:57, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
You can't not mention the Lebanese-Forces.org site. It has the most amount of articles and information then any other site. How could it not be mentioned? -- usurp 09:05, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
Ok so we got one issue out of the way. Lets tackle the next one, the blog. The blog is not a personal site. If you check it at the moment you will see it contains information, articles and views that are not mentioned on any of the other LF sites. Also if you haven't noticed already, blogs are the new thing and no other political website in Lebanon has a blog. This is an important thing for the LF and it should be linked. Also as I mentioned earlier there is no rule in Wikipedia that says blogs can not be mentioned.-- usurp 16:50, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
Lets just stop this childish play and put both websites on the page, i put the .com website as de jure website, and the .org domain as a de facto official website. Both websites can't be ignored in this article.-- Darko3d ( talk) 23:15, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
dear all,
please note that the only official website of the lebanese forces is www.lebanese-forces.com link title and no other website should be listed as so. we can provide you with a picture of the lebanese forces headquater in Maarab Lebanon where the website is shown on the podium. thank you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.126.21.5 ( talk) 10:22, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
this is straight from http://www.lebaneseforces.com/about.asp, but there is no copyright notice on that site, and it may be the author. Christopher Mahan 19:44, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)
A friend of mine from Lebanon, whose family was actually IN the LF disputes the factuality, and the neutrality of this article.
He says that Samir Geagea was not such a pretty man as is made to believe, and there is a profuse lack of detail and analysis in this article.
I am therefore marking it NPOV, and DISPUTED.
ironyWrit 06:52 07/28/05 (UTC)
62.215.3.61 completely rewrote this article; his/her version is here. It was reasonably well written and not obvious vandalism, but quite POV and not nearly as good as what it replaced, so I reverted it.
Would someone familiar with the topic please review that version and see if there's anything worth keeping? Thanks, Tualha ( Talk) 10:22, 2 August 2005 (UTC)
I have reverted a whole spate of POV and copyright violations. I serve notice that I am watching this page, and that I'm not going to allow it to be overrun by people attempting to push an agenda. Speaking for myself, I'm sympathetic towards the LF - always have been, but this is an NPOV encyclopedia and I cannot and will not allow it to be transformed into a propaganda organ, even if I agree with the propaganda. Persistent violators are documented, and disciplinary action may be considered, especially in the case of copyright violations, which appear to be escalating. David Cannon 21:33, 3 August 2005 (UTC)
One more thing. If an LF worked with Israel, then they would have been charged with treason and would have been executed. The SLA for example worked with Israel and most of those leaders are not allowed to come into Lebanon because they would be charged and executed. With the LF though, our leader was just recently freed and was never charged with working with Israel. -- usurp 06:14, August 5, 2005 (UTC)
Most christians have worked with israel during the civil war, this include the Ahrar, the phalange and the LF the descendants of the Kataeb. There are clear statements by many political leaders (At this time I only remember Karim Bakradoni) that christians has collaborated with Israel including LF.
And another thing: I think you're lebanese and you understand how issues are delt in lebanon. We cannot just accuse Joumblatt of the massacres that he commited in the mountains, or Suleiman Frangieh for working with Syria, or Hezbollah for deteriorating lebanon's foreign relations. This applys also to Geagea (I know it would irritate you, but my POV represents the POV of a large number of lebanese), not being charged doesn't proove that he hasn't done anything. And don't forget that the LF is still officially banned from Lebanon (which the article doesn't mention, POV).
And about the lebanese in Israel, it's a controversial issue that was raised lately by Aoun (if you follow the news), and there's opposite POVs: while Hezbollah wants to execute them all, Aoun requested a fair trial with the statement that they haven't all stayed in Israel by there free will. CG 06:46, August 5, 2005 (UTC)
A large POV or a small POV is still a POV and we are here to state facts. Karim Bakradoni is also an ally of Syria and anything he says should be taken with a grain of salt. I also don't have a problem with the Lebanese in Israel. My only issue is that saying that the LF dealt with Israel is a bold and dangerous statement and unless there is hard evidence which there isnt then it should be removed, thats all. You saying that most Christians work with Israel during the war is a POV. My POV is that Hezbolla also has dealt with Israel, but I don't have any hard evidence but its a widly regarded POV still. Finally I understand you are very pro Aoun but I am also extremly Anti Aoun. But you don't see me going and putting my POV on his page even though I could put a lot of things he did which were bad and have articles to provde them. I also could show Aoun look bad in the article about the LF but I won't, the reason for that is as I said it should remain neutral. --
usurp 07:12, August 5, 2005 (UTC)
"Despite public denials, there is evidence that the Lebanese Forces accepted military and financial support from the government of Israel in the early years of the civil war."
Where is the evidence? I have removed this from the Lebanese Forces description but David seems to think it belongs there. If there is such evidence I believe it should be linked to it or mentioned. Unless evidence can be attached to this statement, this line should be deleted. David seems to want to keep this although he has no evidence.
"Aoun demanded that the LF hand over taxes and tarrifs collected illegally, Geagea counterattacked."
I also rephrased this sentence to remove the word illegally since this is a POV of Aoun, the Lebanese Forces enemy at that time. Unless proof can be provided that these taxes and tarrifs were illegal, then this is just an opinion. Although I rephrased this quote, David seems to think it should remain.
Could someone explain to me why David is going against Wiki policy? I have provided strong argument, while David has provided none. I have removed the controversial and inaccurate information but David keeps putting it back. Who can I send a complain to about Davids actions? -- usurp 21:24, August 4, 2005 (UTC)
Furthermore, I just noticed that the links to LF websites and LF related articles were removed. No reason was giving by David ofcourse. Can someone tell me why those links were removed? --
usurp 21:37, August 4, 2005 (UTC)
I wish I could help but I don't have much historical knowledge. I'm rather a supporter of Aoun, and I've heard a lot of criticism of Geagea and his LF (That's what this article lacks of). I found it great that you put a invitation-like in LF site for LF members to participate in the creation of the article and thus bring more editors to wikipedia, but it would be wiser if you also post a similar message in the Free patriotic movement forum explaining the POV issue and the need for different points of view (with the risk of more edit wars :-> )
Another thing, since this article reflects mostly an LF POV, I suggest this article [1] about the lebanese civil war, that by its tone, It shows that (I guess) it's slighter Aounist. CG 05:24, August 5, 2005 (UTC)
"::Reading Wikipedia NPOV policy, it states that every point of view should be mentionned if it mentionned in a book of a newspaper and agreed by a large number of people. That means every criticism of anything should be mentionned. You're christian, but check the John Paul II article, it has a criticism section that irritates christians, but i have to be mentioned. Rafiq Hariri is said to have been killed by Syrian, but there's no proove, it would be totally inaccurate not to mention it in the Rafiq Hariri article, as long as theories involving USA, Israel, and even lebanese politicians. And you're right I'm pro-Aoun, and I would like the Michel Aoun and Free Patriotic Movement to be expanded, but I expect that it will have a huge criticism section, like Samir Geagea and Lebanese Forces should have."
"especially when these criticisms are accepted by a large part of lebanese." Who would these ppl be? Just cause you dont support geagea and believe what you want to believe doesnt mean that a large part of lebanon is the same. Why dont you take yourself and Aoun and run back to france for another 13 years cuz your doing no good in lebanon. Speak ur words somewhere else where ppl think like idiots.
Just a little note about Rachid Karame assasination. The bomb was planted in a Lebanese army choper and this choper was in a trip from tripoli to Lebanese international airport. The invistagations shown that the planted were a lebanese army people, and taking orders from leb army secret services, where Lebanese forces doesnt have any power over them. It is true that the Lebanese forces disliked Rachid Karameh and maybe said in an occasion or two that this guy should go away, thats where the killers try to blame LF on it.
The whole story seems very unreal or should I say fake. There wont be any LF member who is a disgrace to his leader, therefore the story behind flamming Dr. Samir Geagea is just another cheap way not only to insult that great leader, but also making Lebanese forces members bad people. Conclusion: your input is not valid, and it is null.
Totally agree with you, The lebanese forces never made it mendatory for christians to join the cause... Had you not agreed with your leader you where free to leave. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.31.93.65 ( talk) 14:07, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
Listen User talk:212.36.213.26 , I know the LF suficiently well to know what I am talking about. You have a point of view that is different and it's your right. But wikipedia policy states that controversial topics should be discussed on the talk page. If you want to push you point of view you must provide sources or evidences for your claims. That's how it works. If you keep reverting without providing evidence for your allegations, I'll have to report you again and considering your previous history of vandalism you'll be blocked for a longer duration. You say that the LF cross symbolizes a sword 'to be driven in muslim hearts' (your words). For the LF cross, I advise you to look on their un-offical website. After all, the LF chose this symbol for reasons that belong to them, not you. lF website
Please show some evidence supporting your claims or stop your actions.--equitor 09:01, August 16, 2005 (UTC)
I dispute the neutrality of this article because it did not mention the role these forces played in:
-The Sabra and Chatila massacres in September 1982. It has been established through many reports and inquiries, chief among which is the Kahan commission report. This act was found by the UN General Assembly to be an act of Genocide.
-The role in the so-called Mountain War conducted against the Druze. In the course of these confrontations both sides committed atrocities.
For this article to be realiable and neutral, it needs to mention these decisive facts and disclose the Lebanese Forces' involvement in crimes against humanity. For there to be a history, all the facts need to be told. This is not an effort to single out the Lebanese Forces, I encourage everyone to shed more light on the events of the LEbanese Civil War.
Someone very interested in the Marada Brigades keeps entering an anti-LF in these articles, and also keeps crashing the links I just fixed in the process. I think parts of these edits could be valuable, but the need to be a) rephrased to conform to Wikipedia's neutral point of view, and b) sourced with Internet links or literature. Until that happens I will keep reverting them, but I'd be happy to discuss here on talk too. Arre 23:24, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
Please note that the LF cross is not considered a logo of the Lebanese Forces any longer. Dr. Samir Geagea has removed it following his return from France at the request of the Lebanese Greek Orthodox clergy. I sadly do not have a source, but it can be supported by visiting the official LF website www.lebanese-forces.org where it will not appear. I suggest either a removal of the cross as a symbol of the group or to make it clear that it does not symbolise the group any longer.
-- 62.215.248.85 14:22, 5 February 2006 (UTC)Actually Samir Geagea did not say the LF cross is not an LF symbol. Samir Geagea asked that the LF Cross not to be used during demonstrations and instead the Lebanese flag be used. He also said that a lot of people (Students mostly) were abusing the LF cross and its meaning by spray painting it on walls. He asked this be stopped. The LF cross was never and will never be the official logo of the Lebanese Forces. The LF Cross is and was always just a symbol for the Lebanese Forces. The caption under the cross mentions that already.
--I dont know why everybody is making a bid deal out of this. Yes it is true that the war had alot of ups and downs when it comes to leaders of militia's and believes. But, When it comes to lebanese forces thats different. The lebanese forces did defend the christians in lebanon no doubt but they were not the only people to defend them. However there leader had more goals then just to protect us but he wanted to take the president position. Thats when the conflicts and the relations started with isreal. No doubt they did if it was through elie hbayka or samir gaegae thats not right. About the assassinations of samir gaegae thats a total diffrent story. Yes he was accussed about the killing of tony frangieh which is a fact no doubt and yes the killing of Rashid karami is not proven ( which I dont Really Believe ) and the explosion in the church that i have slight believe it happened. Basically what i mean with all this everybody over protects LF and they are the most militia that had alot of mistakes in the past and sleiman frangieh that everybody is judging is the only guy that should be mostly respected he is the guy that stood up in front and said what he said and wasnt with Feb. 14 how many people sold themselfes for a position with Said Al - Al Hariri. And everybody in Lebanon is 100% sure that Syria had nothing to to do with the assassination that happen in Feb 14 we all should open our eyes and see.
--your obviously the syrian supporter...who are you to say that samir geagea had anything to do with those assassinations? they were not proven...about ur little "and the explosion in the church that i have slight believe it happened." If you knew what you were talking about then you would have never said that...why would the patriarch have anything to do with Geagea if he blew up that church. you know so much you tell me...so i need you to shut your mouth and get the facts before you start talking. You try siting underground for 11 years just for believeing for your countries freedom, or you wouldnt know anything about that because the ppl you support ran off to france for 13 years. ALLAH OUWET HAKIM OU BUSS
--10:43, 26 July 2006 (UTC) this is typically lebanon and the lebanese people... everyone think he knws everything and everyone thinks that he got the truth and he is right while everyone is just being manipulated by his leader to the no where. please everyone just check the history and try to see if any lebanese party any lebanese party was able to change anything in lebanon.. it has always been told what to do from outsiders... who cares about little details that no one knows about them.... the world is so big.. no one cares about little details that no one of you no one knows it.because the truth is that everything is like a chess board and we are not the players not even the queen. thank you and please if u are a suporter for the LF dont try to make it the perfect party or the angel one... this is not true...and if it is perfect but not angel it wouldnt have led christians in lebanon to what they have been through... no political party is good enough.
Well, you think that the LF "fought for the cause of Lebanese Christians" and for the defence of Christianity on Lebanon. It's your opinion, maybe other persons share it, but there are also other people that don't share your point of view. Wikipedia is a neutral encyclopaedia and it should remain that way.
Just to give you few examples that the LF didn't always fought for the defence of Christianity in Lebanon:
- The Ehden massacre, perpetrated against Marada, who are Christians.
- The operations against "Noumour el Ahrar" (also Christians) in 1980.
- The war with the Lebanese army of general Aoun (mainly Christians) in 1989/1990
- ...
So, you can't always say that the LF fought for the “cause of Lebanese Christians” or “Christianity in Lebanon”.
A neutral expression would rather be "fought on the Christian side".
Regards,
Captainm 20:04, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
Why is "Fuck Party" added ? And what does it mean ?
Someone changed alot of stuff in this article including curse words like "Arse", please someone check this and revert the changes.
I removed the Syria Wikiproject banner because it was added with no explanation. I can't see why this page is within the scope of the Syria Wikiproject. Fadib83 22:57, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
Image:Lfcross.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
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If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you. BetacommandBot 04:03, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
Image:Lfcross.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.
BetacommandBot 16:26, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
There seems to be a disagreement between editors of this article as to what is the official website of Lebanon forces. It seems that are two contenders:
Both seem to claim to be official websites. Is there a way to establish which should be being used? I have received an email claiming that the latter is not in fact authorised to describe itself as official. Please comment if you have an opinion on this matter or are able to help resolve this matter. WJBscribe (talk) 20:38, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
User Izzedine is obviously oblivious of the History of Lebanon, LF principles, political stances and ideology. Izzedine, you cannot add categories such as Fascism, Fascist parties, Terrorism in Lebanon, Christian terrorism, Anti-Arabism, Anti-Islam sentiment...when you know nothing about the party especially if your sources are fundamentalist sites and blogs, so spare us the effort of reverting your fanatical fabrications. Thank you Eli + 22:30, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
WHy is the group labeled "right wing", when none the PLO nor any of it's groups are labeled as "left wing"? Let's fix that.
The section is written in an obviously biased manner. Events are related with only one side's version included, and without distancing terms such "stated", "allegedly", etc. Plus, loaded words or peacock terms are liberally employed. As an example, the beginning of that section's first paragraph is indicative enough : "Christian East Beirut was ringed by heavily fortified Palestinian camps from which kidnappings and sniping against Lebanese civilians became a daily routine. Christian East Beirut became besieged by the PLO camps, with severe shortages of food and fuel. This unbearable situation was remedied by the Kataeb Regulatory Forces...". It needs citations and re-writing.- The Gnome ( talk) 11:51, 7 March 2011 (UTC)
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Remove this sentence: Lebanese Forces did not fight for seven years and that they did not sacrifice thousands of soldiers to free Lebanon from the Syrian Army and the PLO so that Israel can take their place. Reason: Not true, unreliable source. -- Maudslay II ( talk) 15:41, 5 January 2021 (UTC)
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"Many cite the massacre as revenge for the killing of Bachir Gemayel and the countless massacres committed by the PLO against the Christian civilian population since 1975." There is no citation to substantiate the claim that countless massacres were committed by the PLO against Christian civilians. The use of the word "countless" in this instance is also non-neutral. Zs634 ( talk) 23:49, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
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There are several paragraphs that are identical in the section "Formation" and in the History section, like 1976-1982.
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Adding links to many things like almassira and many more, and creating new articles and pages about politicians and people who dont have one yet on wikipedia Ralphassaker ( talk) 06:15, 20 April 2024 (UTC)
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There are currently two official Lebanese Forces websites. At the moment everyone keeps changing the links from lebanese-forces.org to lebanese-forces.com and vice versa. I believe BOTH official sites should be listed. This will be fair to both sides. -- usurp 13:15, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
Was just reading the NPOV and I believe wikipedia should have a neutral point of view on this issue and not be biased towards either side. Readers should be aware of the two websites. I also just invited the wiki user Fadib83 to this discussion since he continues to remove the link to the other official site. I am hoping we can resolve this issue here and not continue to revert each others changes. -- usurp 07:39, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
Does anyone recall that an organization has 2 official sites with the same title? Obviously, there is a problem between both sides. The Lebanese Forces responsibles that I have contacted said that the LF website "www.lebanese-forces.com" is the only OFFICIAL website of the party. The other one is held by an individual person that supported the LF for years (and maybe is still supporting it). A divergence in the different points of view resulted in that he refuses to remove the mention "Official" from the title of his website. On the other hand, when Wikipedia publishes an article about the LF, I think it should only contain an external link to the official site. Thus I suggest that no blogs should be linked to. The article must be edited in a formal way. Fadib83 10:39, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
Dear Fadi,
The Lebanese-forces.org was founded in 1996 and declared the LF official site.
It has kept the LF Cause and the LF thought intact throughout the years and kept demanding for Hakim's release while other LFers were busy 'exploiting' Hakim's suffering.
What happened almost 2 years ago is that few LFers initiated a fight with the Lebanese-forces.org team and decided to open another 'official' site and launched a war on that other site and exploited their close ties to Hakim to proclaim the site as unofficial.
Hakim is not aware of what is happening online, and the administrator of the lebanese-forces.org site dispatched a letter to Hakim and is still awaiting his response.
Meanwhile, the Lebanese-forces.org will remain official and if the other site insists, it can call itself official as well, L-F.org is not suing anyone or claiming anything unlike what the moderators and administrators of the other site are doing.
The solution is in the hands of Hakim, so there is no point in debating that issue.
Regards, -- N10452 16:57, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
You can't not mention the Lebanese-Forces.org site. It has the most amount of articles and information then any other site. How could it not be mentioned? -- usurp 09:05, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
Ok so we got one issue out of the way. Lets tackle the next one, the blog. The blog is not a personal site. If you check it at the moment you will see it contains information, articles and views that are not mentioned on any of the other LF sites. Also if you haven't noticed already, blogs are the new thing and no other political website in Lebanon has a blog. This is an important thing for the LF and it should be linked. Also as I mentioned earlier there is no rule in Wikipedia that says blogs can not be mentioned.-- usurp 16:50, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
Lets just stop this childish play and put both websites on the page, i put the .com website as de jure website, and the .org domain as a de facto official website. Both websites can't be ignored in this article.-- Darko3d ( talk) 23:15, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
dear all,
please note that the only official website of the lebanese forces is www.lebanese-forces.com link title and no other website should be listed as so. we can provide you with a picture of the lebanese forces headquater in Maarab Lebanon where the website is shown on the podium. thank you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.126.21.5 ( talk) 10:22, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
this is straight from http://www.lebaneseforces.com/about.asp, but there is no copyright notice on that site, and it may be the author. Christopher Mahan 19:44, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)
A friend of mine from Lebanon, whose family was actually IN the LF disputes the factuality, and the neutrality of this article.
He says that Samir Geagea was not such a pretty man as is made to believe, and there is a profuse lack of detail and analysis in this article.
I am therefore marking it NPOV, and DISPUTED.
ironyWrit 06:52 07/28/05 (UTC)
62.215.3.61 completely rewrote this article; his/her version is here. It was reasonably well written and not obvious vandalism, but quite POV and not nearly as good as what it replaced, so I reverted it.
Would someone familiar with the topic please review that version and see if there's anything worth keeping? Thanks, Tualha ( Talk) 10:22, 2 August 2005 (UTC)
I have reverted a whole spate of POV and copyright violations. I serve notice that I am watching this page, and that I'm not going to allow it to be overrun by people attempting to push an agenda. Speaking for myself, I'm sympathetic towards the LF - always have been, but this is an NPOV encyclopedia and I cannot and will not allow it to be transformed into a propaganda organ, even if I agree with the propaganda. Persistent violators are documented, and disciplinary action may be considered, especially in the case of copyright violations, which appear to be escalating. David Cannon 21:33, 3 August 2005 (UTC)
One more thing. If an LF worked with Israel, then they would have been charged with treason and would have been executed. The SLA for example worked with Israel and most of those leaders are not allowed to come into Lebanon because they would be charged and executed. With the LF though, our leader was just recently freed and was never charged with working with Israel. -- usurp 06:14, August 5, 2005 (UTC)
Most christians have worked with israel during the civil war, this include the Ahrar, the phalange and the LF the descendants of the Kataeb. There are clear statements by many political leaders (At this time I only remember Karim Bakradoni) that christians has collaborated with Israel including LF.
And another thing: I think you're lebanese and you understand how issues are delt in lebanon. We cannot just accuse Joumblatt of the massacres that he commited in the mountains, or Suleiman Frangieh for working with Syria, or Hezbollah for deteriorating lebanon's foreign relations. This applys also to Geagea (I know it would irritate you, but my POV represents the POV of a large number of lebanese), not being charged doesn't proove that he hasn't done anything. And don't forget that the LF is still officially banned from Lebanon (which the article doesn't mention, POV).
And about the lebanese in Israel, it's a controversial issue that was raised lately by Aoun (if you follow the news), and there's opposite POVs: while Hezbollah wants to execute them all, Aoun requested a fair trial with the statement that they haven't all stayed in Israel by there free will. CG 06:46, August 5, 2005 (UTC)
A large POV or a small POV is still a POV and we are here to state facts. Karim Bakradoni is also an ally of Syria and anything he says should be taken with a grain of salt. I also don't have a problem with the Lebanese in Israel. My only issue is that saying that the LF dealt with Israel is a bold and dangerous statement and unless there is hard evidence which there isnt then it should be removed, thats all. You saying that most Christians work with Israel during the war is a POV. My POV is that Hezbolla also has dealt with Israel, but I don't have any hard evidence but its a widly regarded POV still. Finally I understand you are very pro Aoun but I am also extremly Anti Aoun. But you don't see me going and putting my POV on his page even though I could put a lot of things he did which were bad and have articles to provde them. I also could show Aoun look bad in the article about the LF but I won't, the reason for that is as I said it should remain neutral. --
usurp 07:12, August 5, 2005 (UTC)
"Despite public denials, there is evidence that the Lebanese Forces accepted military and financial support from the government of Israel in the early years of the civil war."
Where is the evidence? I have removed this from the Lebanese Forces description but David seems to think it belongs there. If there is such evidence I believe it should be linked to it or mentioned. Unless evidence can be attached to this statement, this line should be deleted. David seems to want to keep this although he has no evidence.
"Aoun demanded that the LF hand over taxes and tarrifs collected illegally, Geagea counterattacked."
I also rephrased this sentence to remove the word illegally since this is a POV of Aoun, the Lebanese Forces enemy at that time. Unless proof can be provided that these taxes and tarrifs were illegal, then this is just an opinion. Although I rephrased this quote, David seems to think it should remain.
Could someone explain to me why David is going against Wiki policy? I have provided strong argument, while David has provided none. I have removed the controversial and inaccurate information but David keeps putting it back. Who can I send a complain to about Davids actions? -- usurp 21:24, August 4, 2005 (UTC)
Furthermore, I just noticed that the links to LF websites and LF related articles were removed. No reason was giving by David ofcourse. Can someone tell me why those links were removed? --
usurp 21:37, August 4, 2005 (UTC)
I wish I could help but I don't have much historical knowledge. I'm rather a supporter of Aoun, and I've heard a lot of criticism of Geagea and his LF (That's what this article lacks of). I found it great that you put a invitation-like in LF site for LF members to participate in the creation of the article and thus bring more editors to wikipedia, but it would be wiser if you also post a similar message in the Free patriotic movement forum explaining the POV issue and the need for different points of view (with the risk of more edit wars :-> )
Another thing, since this article reflects mostly an LF POV, I suggest this article [1] about the lebanese civil war, that by its tone, It shows that (I guess) it's slighter Aounist. CG 05:24, August 5, 2005 (UTC)
"::Reading Wikipedia NPOV policy, it states that every point of view should be mentionned if it mentionned in a book of a newspaper and agreed by a large number of people. That means every criticism of anything should be mentionned. You're christian, but check the John Paul II article, it has a criticism section that irritates christians, but i have to be mentioned. Rafiq Hariri is said to have been killed by Syrian, but there's no proove, it would be totally inaccurate not to mention it in the Rafiq Hariri article, as long as theories involving USA, Israel, and even lebanese politicians. And you're right I'm pro-Aoun, and I would like the Michel Aoun and Free Patriotic Movement to be expanded, but I expect that it will have a huge criticism section, like Samir Geagea and Lebanese Forces should have."
"especially when these criticisms are accepted by a large part of lebanese." Who would these ppl be? Just cause you dont support geagea and believe what you want to believe doesnt mean that a large part of lebanon is the same. Why dont you take yourself and Aoun and run back to france for another 13 years cuz your doing no good in lebanon. Speak ur words somewhere else where ppl think like idiots.
Just a little note about Rachid Karame assasination. The bomb was planted in a Lebanese army choper and this choper was in a trip from tripoli to Lebanese international airport. The invistagations shown that the planted were a lebanese army people, and taking orders from leb army secret services, where Lebanese forces doesnt have any power over them. It is true that the Lebanese forces disliked Rachid Karameh and maybe said in an occasion or two that this guy should go away, thats where the killers try to blame LF on it.
The whole story seems very unreal or should I say fake. There wont be any LF member who is a disgrace to his leader, therefore the story behind flamming Dr. Samir Geagea is just another cheap way not only to insult that great leader, but also making Lebanese forces members bad people. Conclusion: your input is not valid, and it is null.
Totally agree with you, The lebanese forces never made it mendatory for christians to join the cause... Had you not agreed with your leader you where free to leave. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.31.93.65 ( talk) 14:07, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
Listen User talk:212.36.213.26 , I know the LF suficiently well to know what I am talking about. You have a point of view that is different and it's your right. But wikipedia policy states that controversial topics should be discussed on the talk page. If you want to push you point of view you must provide sources or evidences for your claims. That's how it works. If you keep reverting without providing evidence for your allegations, I'll have to report you again and considering your previous history of vandalism you'll be blocked for a longer duration. You say that the LF cross symbolizes a sword 'to be driven in muslim hearts' (your words). For the LF cross, I advise you to look on their un-offical website. After all, the LF chose this symbol for reasons that belong to them, not you. lF website
Please show some evidence supporting your claims or stop your actions.--equitor 09:01, August 16, 2005 (UTC)
I dispute the neutrality of this article because it did not mention the role these forces played in:
-The Sabra and Chatila massacres in September 1982. It has been established through many reports and inquiries, chief among which is the Kahan commission report. This act was found by the UN General Assembly to be an act of Genocide.
-The role in the so-called Mountain War conducted against the Druze. In the course of these confrontations both sides committed atrocities.
For this article to be realiable and neutral, it needs to mention these decisive facts and disclose the Lebanese Forces' involvement in crimes against humanity. For there to be a history, all the facts need to be told. This is not an effort to single out the Lebanese Forces, I encourage everyone to shed more light on the events of the LEbanese Civil War.
Someone very interested in the Marada Brigades keeps entering an anti-LF in these articles, and also keeps crashing the links I just fixed in the process. I think parts of these edits could be valuable, but the need to be a) rephrased to conform to Wikipedia's neutral point of view, and b) sourced with Internet links or literature. Until that happens I will keep reverting them, but I'd be happy to discuss here on talk too. Arre 23:24, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
Please note that the LF cross is not considered a logo of the Lebanese Forces any longer. Dr. Samir Geagea has removed it following his return from France at the request of the Lebanese Greek Orthodox clergy. I sadly do not have a source, but it can be supported by visiting the official LF website www.lebanese-forces.org where it will not appear. I suggest either a removal of the cross as a symbol of the group or to make it clear that it does not symbolise the group any longer.
-- 62.215.248.85 14:22, 5 February 2006 (UTC)Actually Samir Geagea did not say the LF cross is not an LF symbol. Samir Geagea asked that the LF Cross not to be used during demonstrations and instead the Lebanese flag be used. He also said that a lot of people (Students mostly) were abusing the LF cross and its meaning by spray painting it on walls. He asked this be stopped. The LF cross was never and will never be the official logo of the Lebanese Forces. The LF Cross is and was always just a symbol for the Lebanese Forces. The caption under the cross mentions that already.
--I dont know why everybody is making a bid deal out of this. Yes it is true that the war had alot of ups and downs when it comes to leaders of militia's and believes. But, When it comes to lebanese forces thats different. The lebanese forces did defend the christians in lebanon no doubt but they were not the only people to defend them. However there leader had more goals then just to protect us but he wanted to take the president position. Thats when the conflicts and the relations started with isreal. No doubt they did if it was through elie hbayka or samir gaegae thats not right. About the assassinations of samir gaegae thats a total diffrent story. Yes he was accussed about the killing of tony frangieh which is a fact no doubt and yes the killing of Rashid karami is not proven ( which I dont Really Believe ) and the explosion in the church that i have slight believe it happened. Basically what i mean with all this everybody over protects LF and they are the most militia that had alot of mistakes in the past and sleiman frangieh that everybody is judging is the only guy that should be mostly respected he is the guy that stood up in front and said what he said and wasnt with Feb. 14 how many people sold themselfes for a position with Said Al - Al Hariri. And everybody in Lebanon is 100% sure that Syria had nothing to to do with the assassination that happen in Feb 14 we all should open our eyes and see.
--your obviously the syrian supporter...who are you to say that samir geagea had anything to do with those assassinations? they were not proven...about ur little "and the explosion in the church that i have slight believe it happened." If you knew what you were talking about then you would have never said that...why would the patriarch have anything to do with Geagea if he blew up that church. you know so much you tell me...so i need you to shut your mouth and get the facts before you start talking. You try siting underground for 11 years just for believeing for your countries freedom, or you wouldnt know anything about that because the ppl you support ran off to france for 13 years. ALLAH OUWET HAKIM OU BUSS
--10:43, 26 July 2006 (UTC) this is typically lebanon and the lebanese people... everyone think he knws everything and everyone thinks that he got the truth and he is right while everyone is just being manipulated by his leader to the no where. please everyone just check the history and try to see if any lebanese party any lebanese party was able to change anything in lebanon.. it has always been told what to do from outsiders... who cares about little details that no one knows about them.... the world is so big.. no one cares about little details that no one of you no one knows it.because the truth is that everything is like a chess board and we are not the players not even the queen. thank you and please if u are a suporter for the LF dont try to make it the perfect party or the angel one... this is not true...and if it is perfect but not angel it wouldnt have led christians in lebanon to what they have been through... no political party is good enough.
Well, you think that the LF "fought for the cause of Lebanese Christians" and for the defence of Christianity on Lebanon. It's your opinion, maybe other persons share it, but there are also other people that don't share your point of view. Wikipedia is a neutral encyclopaedia and it should remain that way.
Just to give you few examples that the LF didn't always fought for the defence of Christianity in Lebanon:
- The Ehden massacre, perpetrated against Marada, who are Christians.
- The operations against "Noumour el Ahrar" (also Christians) in 1980.
- The war with the Lebanese army of general Aoun (mainly Christians) in 1989/1990
- ...
So, you can't always say that the LF fought for the “cause of Lebanese Christians” or “Christianity in Lebanon”.
A neutral expression would rather be "fought on the Christian side".
Regards,
Captainm 20:04, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
Why is "Fuck Party" added ? And what does it mean ?
Someone changed alot of stuff in this article including curse words like "Arse", please someone check this and revert the changes.
I removed the Syria Wikiproject banner because it was added with no explanation. I can't see why this page is within the scope of the Syria Wikiproject. Fadib83 22:57, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
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Image:Lfcross.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.
BetacommandBot 16:26, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
There seems to be a disagreement between editors of this article as to what is the official website of Lebanon forces. It seems that are two contenders:
Both seem to claim to be official websites. Is there a way to establish which should be being used? I have received an email claiming that the latter is not in fact authorised to describe itself as official. Please comment if you have an opinion on this matter or are able to help resolve this matter. WJBscribe (talk) 20:38, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
User Izzedine is obviously oblivious of the History of Lebanon, LF principles, political stances and ideology. Izzedine, you cannot add categories such as Fascism, Fascist parties, Terrorism in Lebanon, Christian terrorism, Anti-Arabism, Anti-Islam sentiment...when you know nothing about the party especially if your sources are fundamentalist sites and blogs, so spare us the effort of reverting your fanatical fabrications. Thank you Eli + 22:30, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
WHy is the group labeled "right wing", when none the PLO nor any of it's groups are labeled as "left wing"? Let's fix that.
The section is written in an obviously biased manner. Events are related with only one side's version included, and without distancing terms such "stated", "allegedly", etc. Plus, loaded words or peacock terms are liberally employed. As an example, the beginning of that section's first paragraph is indicative enough : "Christian East Beirut was ringed by heavily fortified Palestinian camps from which kidnappings and sniping against Lebanese civilians became a daily routine. Christian East Beirut became besieged by the PLO camps, with severe shortages of food and fuel. This unbearable situation was remedied by the Kataeb Regulatory Forces...". It needs citations and re-writing.- The Gnome ( talk) 11:51, 7 March 2011 (UTC)
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Oberynmartell ( talk) 19:02, 18 November 2018 (UTC)
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Cabinet of Lebanon: 2/30 to 0/20 Maudslayer ( talk) 19:47, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
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Remove this sentence: Lebanese Forces did not fight for seven years and that they did not sacrifice thousands of soldiers to free Lebanon from the Syrian Army and the PLO so that Israel can take their place. Reason: Not true, unreliable source. -- Maudslay II ( talk) 15:41, 5 January 2021 (UTC)
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"Many cite the massacre as revenge for the killing of Bachir Gemayel and the countless massacres committed by the PLO against the Christian civilian population since 1975." There is no citation to substantiate the claim that countless massacres were committed by the PLO against Christian civilians. The use of the word "countless" in this instance is also non-neutral. Zs634 ( talk) 23:49, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
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There are several paragraphs that are identical in the section "Formation" and in the History section, like 1976-1982.
I think they should be removed from the "formation" section as what they describe happens quite some time after the formation. Freeedim ( talk) 09:26, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
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Adding links to many things like almassira and many more, and creating new articles and pages about politicians and people who dont have one yet on wikipedia Ralphassaker ( talk) 06:15, 20 April 2024 (UTC)