![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||
|
@ VenusFeuerFalle: I really don’t understand why you keep removing what I add. The page should be impartial and presents relevant info but you keep removing all text added even though it is all sourced. Why not just edit and fix what is added instead of completely remove it? CherryPie94 🍒🥧 ( talk) 03:52, 22 August 2022 (UTC)
In the early years, Muhammad is celebrated but never on an national level, later, when Islam gets more powerful, events in Muhammad's life became national events. Some scholars regard this as shirk, simultaneously with the emerge of the first Salafi movements. The first Salafi Movements however, failed largely. Ibn Taimiyya didn't played a significant role until the decline of the Ottoman Empire. This is also the reason why it would be misleading to cite ibn Taimiyya here. If we cite ibn Taimiyya out of context, it appears like there was a huge opposition already in the late Medieval Age, but this isn't true. Ibn Taimiyya's opinions only played a role in modern and contemporary Islam, a time period, in which Muslim scholars tend to oppose such holidays.
@ Lameen Souag: You did a good job on the Ashura page, mind helping here. You can see the text I added in the history page before it was reverted for no logical reason, except religious bias. We have narrates from An-Nawawi, Ibn Taymiyyah, Abd al-Aziz Ibn Baz, we have the book كتاب البدع الحولية by Abdullah Altowajri, Grand Imam of al-Azhar fatwa, and many more. This is significant and should be included, don’t you agree?
Some extra sources: https://www.elbalad.news/4186644 https://www.elwatannews.com/news/details/5943178 https://www.raya.com/2022/02/04/%D8%AD%D9%83%D9%85-%D8%B5%D9%84%D8%A7%D8%A9-%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%B1%D8%BA%D8%A7%D8%A6%D8%A8-%D9%81%D9%8A-%D8%B4%D9%87%D8%B1-%D8%B1%D8%AC%D8%A8/
CherryPie94 🍒🥧 ( talk) 19:52, 22 August 2022 (UTC)
I've never once head a Muslim in real life mention "Laylat al-Raghaib", or even seen it in books until I searched for it this week. I would be surprised if you can find anyone in Algeria, bar the odd expert on comparative religion, who has. Nothing to do with Salafism in this case - probably more a result of the region's weaker ties to the Ottoman Empire and different madhab, similar to the way North Africa uses Warsh not Nafi. For all I know this practice may be universal in Central Asia or Indonesia or something, not just Turkey and its vicinity; but if so, sources should be provided to indicate that. And existing well-sourced material should not be removed without clearcut justification. Lameen Souag ( talk) 16:36, 24 August 2022 (UTC)
As regards the five Kandil nights, I've never heard the term, and don't even know offhand what its Arabic translation might be (it doesn't even have an Arabic WP page!) I can state confidently that I've never come across a corresponding concept in Algeria, or in discussions with other Arabic speakers for that matter. As above, if you have sources for this being a concept more widespread than just Turkey and its vicinity, please provide sources. - Lameen Souag ( talk) 16:42, 24 August 2022 (UTC)
A problematic phrase: "Muslims influenced by Sufism, such as Muslims in Turkey and Muslim Balkan communities today". This means very little. I assume no one would suggest that Muslims in Turkey are more influenced by Sufism than Muslims in, say, Egypt or Morocco; are there any Muslim communities which can seriously claim not to have been influenced by Sufism? The introduction should attempt an overview of its geographical distribution, not vaguely attribute it to what many readers will mistake for a sect. - Lameen Souag ( talk) 16:57, 24 August 2022 (UTC)
Fatwas are not relaible sources. I don't would to be rude, but if you know about Islam, you should be aware that Fatwas are nothing binding, especially not in Sunni Islam, which makes the majority of Muslims. Also fatwas are no academic evaluation, but a religious view point. You cannot detect how Islam is practised by reading Fatwas, especially not when you look up for ibn Taimiyya, who btw played only a marginal role until the modern age. His opinnion doesn't reflect overall Islamic practises except for those who adhere to him. We see there is a bias, we probably both hold some, as our experience is completely the opposite. In the end, we are not up to decide what is right, but only use the sources available (fatwas are none). Here (Laylat Al-Raghaib Blessed Night of Wishes (iqna.ir), Maulid an-Nabi in Iran - IranKultur - Iran | Kultur | Reisen), for example, you can find something in English regarding ReGhaib and its "universality", I could likewise add different blogs and fatwas about "how important Reghaib" is. This leads to no conclusive answer regarding the question, how common this practise is. And we don't have the tools to determine that. We can only refer to scholars who investigated that matter. Until then, we must work with what we have. We must also be cautious not to promote Salafi view points (who often refer to Hanbalite or "madhab" position, but only select that suits them). @ CherryPie94 🍒🥧 and @ Lameen Souag VenusFeuerFalle ( talk) 14:28, 25 August 2022 (UTC)
A quote from that "Some sense of the popular desires that were met by the identification and celebration of special times in the Islamic calendar is provided by al-Turtushl (d. ca. 520 ah/1 126 ce) and by Abu Shama (d. 665 ah/1268 ce). Turtushl was an Andalusian MalikI who spent time in Syria and settled in Egypt; Abu Shama was a Syrian, and presents one of the earliest scholarly endorsements of the celebra- tion of the Prophet's mawlid in his book al-Ba 'ith 'ala inkar al-bida '. Both scholars are particularly concerned with those innovations that are widely considered to be religiously legitimate, particularly among the common people (al-'awamm). One of these is the alftya, or "thousand" prayer, that is performed on the eve of the fifteenth of Sha'ban (laylat nisf Sha'ban) and consists of one hundred cycles of prostration, in each cycle of which the first chapter of the Qur'an is recited once and the 112th chapter ten times. Abu Shama notes that despite the fact that there are only weak or fabricated hadlths on the subject, the common people (al- 'awamm) are enchanted by the practice; mosques are illumi- nated for the occasion, crowds of men and women participate (to the obvious detriment of public order), and many people consider the practice to be one of the greatest rites of the Islamic faith (min ajall sha 'a 'ir al-muslimlri)."- p. 149
So, it seems to me less and less likely, this is merely a Turkish festival.-- VenusFeuerFalle ( talk) 18:01, 29 August 2022 (UTC)
@ VenusFeuerFalle: can you please stop editing until we resolve the dispute and talk it out first? It is unfair that we wait for you to respond to our comments but you ignore them and keep editing on your own. Discuss the issue first before editing. I will be including our changes from the previous version if you don’t respond here and keep editing on your own. CherryPie94 🍒🥧 ( talk) 02:49, 8 September 2022 (UTC)
References
@ VenusFeuerFalle: I will also ping @ Lameen Souag:, so please use the reply as stated here next time. Having a negative connotation is not a valid reason to remove well-sourced facts since Wikipedia is not censored. Moreover, you asking if Hanafis disagree with that really shows that you did not even bother reading the additions we had before mass reverting everything to the version you prefer. If you actually read it was included with sources that all four Madhabs see it as a Bida. As I said before, you have a wrong definition of what Original research is, please go to the page and read it because on this page there was no "new analysis or synthesis of published material that serves to reach or imply a conclusion not clearly stated by the sources themselves". Also, secondary sources contain "an author's analysis, evaluation, interpretation, or synthesis of the facts, evidence, concepts, and ideas taken from primary sources." So Fatwas fall under secondary sources since the scholars/authors analyze religious texts (primary sources) to reach their opinion. It is a shame to see that this is the only issue you have, but you have gone as far as revert every single change we made. Please use Wikipedia policies to judge if things are allowed on a page or not, not just arguing points without referring to the policies. CherryPie94 🍒🥧 ( talk) 14:48, 11 September 2022 (UTC)
It is most important, however, that none of you should neglect the first Thursday night in Rajab, for it is the night that the angels call the Night of Wishes. This is because, by the time the first third of the night has elapsed, there will not be a single angel still at large in the heavens, nor in any region of the earth bar one. They will all be gathered together in the Ka'ba and the area immediately surrounding it. Allah will condescend to notice that they have assembled there, and He will say: 'My angels, ask Me for whatever you wish!' Their response to this will be: 'Our Lord, the request we wish to make is that You grant forgiveness to those who faithfully keep the fast in Rajab,' whereupon Allah will tell them: 'That I have already done!'
For some time now, @ VenusFeuerFalle has been systematically reverting good faith edits to this page, irrespective of their content ot merits, and falsely characterising them as based on "fatwas" or "infiltartion (sic) of religious point view". Bluntly, I have taken this page from one based entirely on encyclopedia articles and modern Turkish religious manuals to one based on peer-reviewed published research by well-credentialed academic historians, most of them non-Muslim. It is manifestly inappropriate to attempt to censor the well-established history of this night simply because that history might seem to undermine the belief of those who celebrate it. (It doesn't even need to, by the way: the concept of bid'ah hasanah is defensible in Islam, and its historical use to legitimate this practice is clearly described in this article, or was before the last reversion attempt.) His edits to the talk page show no engagement whatsoever with the content of the edits, much less with their sources, as most recently seen in the comment above (far from claiming that this is an exclusively Turkish festival, the sources I cite clearly established that it originated in Jerusalem and was popular in medieval Damascus). I have better things to spend my limited WP time on than looking up the latest iterations of editing policies; suffice it to say that mass reverting well-sourced and accurate material should be clearly unacceptable. - Lameen Souag ( talk) 21:44, 29 August 2022 (UTC)
(PS for reference: the last corrected version of this page: https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Laylat_al-Raghaib&oldid=1106963043 . The comparison speaks for itself.) - Lameen Souag ( talk) 21:48, 29 August 2022 (UTC)
A proposal: if @ VenusFeuerFalle has any specific objections to outline, as opposed to general claims about these edits supposedly reflecting "religious point view", they should feel free to outline them here item by item. (I'm still curious personally: is there some reason why they feel discussion of the Kadizadeli controversy over this festival is inappropriate, or why they believe associated Turkish culinary traditions should not be mentioned? Or is this, as it appears to be, simply a matter of mass deleting any material by editors not sharing their personal POV, without even taking the trouble to distinguish bits they actually object to from bits they don't?) That might at least make it possible to have a discussion, and to suppose that these reversions are being made in good faith. - Lameen Souag ( talk) 08:40, 30 August 2022 (UTC)
![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||
|
@ VenusFeuerFalle: I really don’t understand why you keep removing what I add. The page should be impartial and presents relevant info but you keep removing all text added even though it is all sourced. Why not just edit and fix what is added instead of completely remove it? CherryPie94 🍒🥧 ( talk) 03:52, 22 August 2022 (UTC)
In the early years, Muhammad is celebrated but never on an national level, later, when Islam gets more powerful, events in Muhammad's life became national events. Some scholars regard this as shirk, simultaneously with the emerge of the first Salafi movements. The first Salafi Movements however, failed largely. Ibn Taimiyya didn't played a significant role until the decline of the Ottoman Empire. This is also the reason why it would be misleading to cite ibn Taimiyya here. If we cite ibn Taimiyya out of context, it appears like there was a huge opposition already in the late Medieval Age, but this isn't true. Ibn Taimiyya's opinions only played a role in modern and contemporary Islam, a time period, in which Muslim scholars tend to oppose such holidays.
@ Lameen Souag: You did a good job on the Ashura page, mind helping here. You can see the text I added in the history page before it was reverted for no logical reason, except religious bias. We have narrates from An-Nawawi, Ibn Taymiyyah, Abd al-Aziz Ibn Baz, we have the book كتاب البدع الحولية by Abdullah Altowajri, Grand Imam of al-Azhar fatwa, and many more. This is significant and should be included, don’t you agree?
Some extra sources: https://www.elbalad.news/4186644 https://www.elwatannews.com/news/details/5943178 https://www.raya.com/2022/02/04/%D8%AD%D9%83%D9%85-%D8%B5%D9%84%D8%A7%D8%A9-%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%B1%D8%BA%D8%A7%D8%A6%D8%A8-%D9%81%D9%8A-%D8%B4%D9%87%D8%B1-%D8%B1%D8%AC%D8%A8/
CherryPie94 🍒🥧 ( talk) 19:52, 22 August 2022 (UTC)
I've never once head a Muslim in real life mention "Laylat al-Raghaib", or even seen it in books until I searched for it this week. I would be surprised if you can find anyone in Algeria, bar the odd expert on comparative religion, who has. Nothing to do with Salafism in this case - probably more a result of the region's weaker ties to the Ottoman Empire and different madhab, similar to the way North Africa uses Warsh not Nafi. For all I know this practice may be universal in Central Asia or Indonesia or something, not just Turkey and its vicinity; but if so, sources should be provided to indicate that. And existing well-sourced material should not be removed without clearcut justification. Lameen Souag ( talk) 16:36, 24 August 2022 (UTC)
As regards the five Kandil nights, I've never heard the term, and don't even know offhand what its Arabic translation might be (it doesn't even have an Arabic WP page!) I can state confidently that I've never come across a corresponding concept in Algeria, or in discussions with other Arabic speakers for that matter. As above, if you have sources for this being a concept more widespread than just Turkey and its vicinity, please provide sources. - Lameen Souag ( talk) 16:42, 24 August 2022 (UTC)
A problematic phrase: "Muslims influenced by Sufism, such as Muslims in Turkey and Muslim Balkan communities today". This means very little. I assume no one would suggest that Muslims in Turkey are more influenced by Sufism than Muslims in, say, Egypt or Morocco; are there any Muslim communities which can seriously claim not to have been influenced by Sufism? The introduction should attempt an overview of its geographical distribution, not vaguely attribute it to what many readers will mistake for a sect. - Lameen Souag ( talk) 16:57, 24 August 2022 (UTC)
Fatwas are not relaible sources. I don't would to be rude, but if you know about Islam, you should be aware that Fatwas are nothing binding, especially not in Sunni Islam, which makes the majority of Muslims. Also fatwas are no academic evaluation, but a religious view point. You cannot detect how Islam is practised by reading Fatwas, especially not when you look up for ibn Taimiyya, who btw played only a marginal role until the modern age. His opinnion doesn't reflect overall Islamic practises except for those who adhere to him. We see there is a bias, we probably both hold some, as our experience is completely the opposite. In the end, we are not up to decide what is right, but only use the sources available (fatwas are none). Here (Laylat Al-Raghaib Blessed Night of Wishes (iqna.ir), Maulid an-Nabi in Iran - IranKultur - Iran | Kultur | Reisen), for example, you can find something in English regarding ReGhaib and its "universality", I could likewise add different blogs and fatwas about "how important Reghaib" is. This leads to no conclusive answer regarding the question, how common this practise is. And we don't have the tools to determine that. We can only refer to scholars who investigated that matter. Until then, we must work with what we have. We must also be cautious not to promote Salafi view points (who often refer to Hanbalite or "madhab" position, but only select that suits them). @ CherryPie94 🍒🥧 and @ Lameen Souag VenusFeuerFalle ( talk) 14:28, 25 August 2022 (UTC)
A quote from that "Some sense of the popular desires that were met by the identification and celebration of special times in the Islamic calendar is provided by al-Turtushl (d. ca. 520 ah/1 126 ce) and by Abu Shama (d. 665 ah/1268 ce). Turtushl was an Andalusian MalikI who spent time in Syria and settled in Egypt; Abu Shama was a Syrian, and presents one of the earliest scholarly endorsements of the celebra- tion of the Prophet's mawlid in his book al-Ba 'ith 'ala inkar al-bida '. Both scholars are particularly concerned with those innovations that are widely considered to be religiously legitimate, particularly among the common people (al-'awamm). One of these is the alftya, or "thousand" prayer, that is performed on the eve of the fifteenth of Sha'ban (laylat nisf Sha'ban) and consists of one hundred cycles of prostration, in each cycle of which the first chapter of the Qur'an is recited once and the 112th chapter ten times. Abu Shama notes that despite the fact that there are only weak or fabricated hadlths on the subject, the common people (al- 'awamm) are enchanted by the practice; mosques are illumi- nated for the occasion, crowds of men and women participate (to the obvious detriment of public order), and many people consider the practice to be one of the greatest rites of the Islamic faith (min ajall sha 'a 'ir al-muslimlri)."- p. 149
So, it seems to me less and less likely, this is merely a Turkish festival.-- VenusFeuerFalle ( talk) 18:01, 29 August 2022 (UTC)
@ VenusFeuerFalle: can you please stop editing until we resolve the dispute and talk it out first? It is unfair that we wait for you to respond to our comments but you ignore them and keep editing on your own. Discuss the issue first before editing. I will be including our changes from the previous version if you don’t respond here and keep editing on your own. CherryPie94 🍒🥧 ( talk) 02:49, 8 September 2022 (UTC)
References
@ VenusFeuerFalle: I will also ping @ Lameen Souag:, so please use the reply as stated here next time. Having a negative connotation is not a valid reason to remove well-sourced facts since Wikipedia is not censored. Moreover, you asking if Hanafis disagree with that really shows that you did not even bother reading the additions we had before mass reverting everything to the version you prefer. If you actually read it was included with sources that all four Madhabs see it as a Bida. As I said before, you have a wrong definition of what Original research is, please go to the page and read it because on this page there was no "new analysis or synthesis of published material that serves to reach or imply a conclusion not clearly stated by the sources themselves". Also, secondary sources contain "an author's analysis, evaluation, interpretation, or synthesis of the facts, evidence, concepts, and ideas taken from primary sources." So Fatwas fall under secondary sources since the scholars/authors analyze religious texts (primary sources) to reach their opinion. It is a shame to see that this is the only issue you have, but you have gone as far as revert every single change we made. Please use Wikipedia policies to judge if things are allowed on a page or not, not just arguing points without referring to the policies. CherryPie94 🍒🥧 ( talk) 14:48, 11 September 2022 (UTC)
It is most important, however, that none of you should neglect the first Thursday night in Rajab, for it is the night that the angels call the Night of Wishes. This is because, by the time the first third of the night has elapsed, there will not be a single angel still at large in the heavens, nor in any region of the earth bar one. They will all be gathered together in the Ka'ba and the area immediately surrounding it. Allah will condescend to notice that they have assembled there, and He will say: 'My angels, ask Me for whatever you wish!' Their response to this will be: 'Our Lord, the request we wish to make is that You grant forgiveness to those who faithfully keep the fast in Rajab,' whereupon Allah will tell them: 'That I have already done!'
For some time now, @ VenusFeuerFalle has been systematically reverting good faith edits to this page, irrespective of their content ot merits, and falsely characterising them as based on "fatwas" or "infiltartion (sic) of religious point view". Bluntly, I have taken this page from one based entirely on encyclopedia articles and modern Turkish religious manuals to one based on peer-reviewed published research by well-credentialed academic historians, most of them non-Muslim. It is manifestly inappropriate to attempt to censor the well-established history of this night simply because that history might seem to undermine the belief of those who celebrate it. (It doesn't even need to, by the way: the concept of bid'ah hasanah is defensible in Islam, and its historical use to legitimate this practice is clearly described in this article, or was before the last reversion attempt.) His edits to the talk page show no engagement whatsoever with the content of the edits, much less with their sources, as most recently seen in the comment above (far from claiming that this is an exclusively Turkish festival, the sources I cite clearly established that it originated in Jerusalem and was popular in medieval Damascus). I have better things to spend my limited WP time on than looking up the latest iterations of editing policies; suffice it to say that mass reverting well-sourced and accurate material should be clearly unacceptable. - Lameen Souag ( talk) 21:44, 29 August 2022 (UTC)
(PS for reference: the last corrected version of this page: https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Laylat_al-Raghaib&oldid=1106963043 . The comparison speaks for itself.) - Lameen Souag ( talk) 21:48, 29 August 2022 (UTC)
A proposal: if @ VenusFeuerFalle has any specific objections to outline, as opposed to general claims about these edits supposedly reflecting "religious point view", they should feel free to outline them here item by item. (I'm still curious personally: is there some reason why they feel discussion of the Kadizadeli controversy over this festival is inappropriate, or why they believe associated Turkish culinary traditions should not be mentioned? Or is this, as it appears to be, simply a matter of mass deleting any material by editors not sharing their personal POV, without even taking the trouble to distinguish bits they actually object to from bits they don't?) That might at least make it possible to have a discussion, and to suppose that these reversions are being made in good faith. - Lameen Souag ( talk) 08:40, 30 August 2022 (UTC)