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I shall assume for the moment that
is a true statement. What sources are needed to substantiate this statement? In order to verify this statement, we need to
or to
If we are doing that comparison ourself, then this is original research. The comparison needs to be sourced. Adding "The Drumhead" here as a cite does not address the issue of sourcing, and in fact makes it seem even more like original research than decent unsourced material. Morwen - Talk 14:32, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
One can argue both sides of the point. I can see why Husnock says this. I've been to the green table (Captain's Mast) and Court Martials (general and special) myself, and everything seems to indicate that whoever wrote this stuff probaby copied it from existing military law. But on the other hand, without a source to prove this , it's OR. Husnock, the frustration you have regarding this issue has to do more with the fact that no sources touch on this topic aside from the shows themselves. Aren't there any kind of publicized production notes or something? -- Elar a girl Talk| Count 14:53, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
"Klingon Law revolves around trial by combat (DS9 "The Way of the Warrior") but with a formal trial procedure in place as well (Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country)."
I think the contention is that this statement is a generalization about Klingon law as a whole based one incident in a TV show and one trial in the film. I don't remember Way of the Warrior (Rules of Engagement probably mentions it, too), but certainly there's nothing in ST6 (or the Enterprise episode with similar events) from which to make an across the board statement about Klingon law. More appropriate phrasing would be along the lines of, "In one instance, X happens" or some such. -- EEMeltonIV 20:46, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
* Cite a reputable secondary source, or remove it. Guy ( Help!) 22:49, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
No. No, no, no. When I say that the comparison with the US military code needs sourcing, I do not mean "quote an episode", I mean cite a secondary source that makes this inference. The whole of the JAG section is still sourced to episodes which means it is still original research. Somebody really does not seem to be getting this simple point. Guy ( Help!) 22:48, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
The entire OR issue and lacking a source just got attacked by a Klingon armada and completely destryoed. Survivors are in an unorganized retreat towards the Tholian Neutral Zone...a PRIMARY LITERARY SOURCE...has now been added to this article. - Husnock 05:13, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
Things to do:
Add appropriate wikilinks throughout the text.
Change the reference style to the one already used at the bottom of the article.
Images that should be wikified, copyright-cleared, and added:
http://startrek.wikia.com/wiki/High_Council_of_the_Klingon_Empire (TNG-era council shot)
http://www.thefilmfrontier.com/images/trek06_010.jpg (image of st6 trial)
http://www.paulmcelligott.com/images/undiscovered_country.jpg (2nd image of st6 trial - I prefer the first one, though, cause it focuses more on the klingons, but I'm not too stressed. only one st6 shot is necessary, though)
Unsourced claims to add if sourced:
- The Mek'ba is the name given to that part of a trial or challenge in which evidence is presented.
- Klingon law provides that both the prosecution and the defence present their cases simultaneously.
Things that need to be added:
New "Trial procedures" section:
In the Klingon legal system, a Klingon warrior standing trial or challenging the High Council can appoint a cha'DIch, or "second." Since the accused warrior is denied combat privileges during the trial, the cha'DIch must physically defend him. (TNG: Sins of the Father)
ST6 - trial procedures
ENT:Judgment - trial procedures
PS. I found this script website - they shouldn't be listed as references, keep listing the actual eps for that, but they make life a bit easier when trying to find an old episode you're thinking of.
TNG scripts:
http://www.twiztv.com/scripts/nextgeneration/
DS9 scripts:
http://www.twiztv.com/scripts/ds9/
Quack 688 09:18, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
Comment from Charlesknight's "This article may contain original research or unverified claims." tag: "it is suggested" It suggests that klingons like to kill people, says nothing about the legal system.
Response: The point I wanted to make was that under their legal system, killing someone for challenging their honor is a perfectly legal response. I can't think of a source for that off-hand, so I'll remove that section until I find one. If you have any other concerns with that section of the article, can you please leave a note here as well? Thanks! Quack 688 16:57, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
Would people who own the DVDs be willing to put in the exact minute(s) the cited material occurs? It makes the sources much more accessible. (Alas I own very little Star Trek myself.) -- Fang Aili talk 22:13, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
This article was not nominated for deletion. The result of that AfD should not be seen as an endorsement of the contents of this article. Its predecessor Starfleet Judge Advocate General was nominated and this article was created as a means of salvaging its content. The AfD concensus was that this article should be given time to be finalised. This should be kept in mind should editors consider that this article once finished still has problems with WP:N or WP:OR. - WJBscribe (WJB talk) 14:59, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
Is Birth of the federation canon?
-- Charlesknight 11:28, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
From WP:ATT#Primary_and_secondary_sources:
I believe the article as of the most recent diff meets the criteria for usage of primary sources and as such should not be tagged. All of the information is merely descriptive and can definitely be checked by anyone without specialist knowledge - just pop in a DVD of the episode cited. Because this is a descriptive article about a fictional universe, it's not a misuse of primary source if we say "anyone who breaks Edo law is sentenced to death" since the episode "Justice" tells us so and there is no interpretive debate about it. We do not run into the Bible problem above, which is I believe what WP:ATT is trying to avoid, because we're not dealing with anything that can be twisted inside out through differing interpretations. We know that Star Trek canon is defined for better or worse as the live-action TV episodes and movies. Since my major rewrite of this article back in January, I have tried to keep the cruft out and stick strictly to ST canon. There is of course an active debate on the canonicity of certain elements of the episodes and films, but that debate does not come into play here.
In addition, I have added cites to secondary sources (law review articles) which by definition meet what is asked for in the tag: "sources or references that appear in reliable, third-party publications". Wl219 05:29, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
The article is currently written in an "in-universe" style and relies on primary sources. Only after these problems are resolved should the maintenance tags be removed. Addhoc 18:39, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
"Picard also defends the entire human race's history in the first i"
.... huh? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.161.122.251 ( talk) 07:16, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
Just jumping in here.....
.... perhaps in order to bring this page out of stub statuts, someone should begin by introducing specific instances in the Star Trek episodes where law was the central focus. An example is when Picard defends Data's rights as a citizen; another would be Spock's court martial in "The Menagerie". Thoughts? — Preceding unsigned comment added by DarkSummoner ( talk • contribs) 04:51, 6 July 2014 (UTC)
I plan to add examples from TNG episodes; 'Measure of a Man' and 'The Outcast' based on fundamental rights in star trek; maybe also 'Pen Pals' and others for information on the prime directive. Perhaps examples from other star trek series would be beneficial? Cassie Schebel, almost a savant. <3 ( talk) 20:08, 28 March 2022 (UTC)
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![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||
|
I shall assume for the moment that
is a true statement. What sources are needed to substantiate this statement? In order to verify this statement, we need to
or to
If we are doing that comparison ourself, then this is original research. The comparison needs to be sourced. Adding "The Drumhead" here as a cite does not address the issue of sourcing, and in fact makes it seem even more like original research than decent unsourced material. Morwen - Talk 14:32, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
One can argue both sides of the point. I can see why Husnock says this. I've been to the green table (Captain's Mast) and Court Martials (general and special) myself, and everything seems to indicate that whoever wrote this stuff probaby copied it from existing military law. But on the other hand, without a source to prove this , it's OR. Husnock, the frustration you have regarding this issue has to do more with the fact that no sources touch on this topic aside from the shows themselves. Aren't there any kind of publicized production notes or something? -- Elar a girl Talk| Count 14:53, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
"Klingon Law revolves around trial by combat (DS9 "The Way of the Warrior") but with a formal trial procedure in place as well (Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country)."
I think the contention is that this statement is a generalization about Klingon law as a whole based one incident in a TV show and one trial in the film. I don't remember Way of the Warrior (Rules of Engagement probably mentions it, too), but certainly there's nothing in ST6 (or the Enterprise episode with similar events) from which to make an across the board statement about Klingon law. More appropriate phrasing would be along the lines of, "In one instance, X happens" or some such. -- EEMeltonIV 20:46, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
* Cite a reputable secondary source, or remove it. Guy ( Help!) 22:49, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
No. No, no, no. When I say that the comparison with the US military code needs sourcing, I do not mean "quote an episode", I mean cite a secondary source that makes this inference. The whole of the JAG section is still sourced to episodes which means it is still original research. Somebody really does not seem to be getting this simple point. Guy ( Help!) 22:48, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
The entire OR issue and lacking a source just got attacked by a Klingon armada and completely destryoed. Survivors are in an unorganized retreat towards the Tholian Neutral Zone...a PRIMARY LITERARY SOURCE...has now been added to this article. - Husnock 05:13, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
Things to do:
Add appropriate wikilinks throughout the text.
Change the reference style to the one already used at the bottom of the article.
Images that should be wikified, copyright-cleared, and added:
http://startrek.wikia.com/wiki/High_Council_of_the_Klingon_Empire (TNG-era council shot)
http://www.thefilmfrontier.com/images/trek06_010.jpg (image of st6 trial)
http://www.paulmcelligott.com/images/undiscovered_country.jpg (2nd image of st6 trial - I prefer the first one, though, cause it focuses more on the klingons, but I'm not too stressed. only one st6 shot is necessary, though)
Unsourced claims to add if sourced:
- The Mek'ba is the name given to that part of a trial or challenge in which evidence is presented.
- Klingon law provides that both the prosecution and the defence present their cases simultaneously.
Things that need to be added:
New "Trial procedures" section:
In the Klingon legal system, a Klingon warrior standing trial or challenging the High Council can appoint a cha'DIch, or "second." Since the accused warrior is denied combat privileges during the trial, the cha'DIch must physically defend him. (TNG: Sins of the Father)
ST6 - trial procedures
ENT:Judgment - trial procedures
PS. I found this script website - they shouldn't be listed as references, keep listing the actual eps for that, but they make life a bit easier when trying to find an old episode you're thinking of.
TNG scripts:
http://www.twiztv.com/scripts/nextgeneration/
DS9 scripts:
http://www.twiztv.com/scripts/ds9/
Quack 688 09:18, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
Comment from Charlesknight's "This article may contain original research or unverified claims." tag: "it is suggested" It suggests that klingons like to kill people, says nothing about the legal system.
Response: The point I wanted to make was that under their legal system, killing someone for challenging their honor is a perfectly legal response. I can't think of a source for that off-hand, so I'll remove that section until I find one. If you have any other concerns with that section of the article, can you please leave a note here as well? Thanks! Quack 688 16:57, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
Would people who own the DVDs be willing to put in the exact minute(s) the cited material occurs? It makes the sources much more accessible. (Alas I own very little Star Trek myself.) -- Fang Aili talk 22:13, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
This article was not nominated for deletion. The result of that AfD should not be seen as an endorsement of the contents of this article. Its predecessor Starfleet Judge Advocate General was nominated and this article was created as a means of salvaging its content. The AfD concensus was that this article should be given time to be finalised. This should be kept in mind should editors consider that this article once finished still has problems with WP:N or WP:OR. - WJBscribe (WJB talk) 14:59, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
Is Birth of the federation canon?
-- Charlesknight 11:28, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
From WP:ATT#Primary_and_secondary_sources:
I believe the article as of the most recent diff meets the criteria for usage of primary sources and as such should not be tagged. All of the information is merely descriptive and can definitely be checked by anyone without specialist knowledge - just pop in a DVD of the episode cited. Because this is a descriptive article about a fictional universe, it's not a misuse of primary source if we say "anyone who breaks Edo law is sentenced to death" since the episode "Justice" tells us so and there is no interpretive debate about it. We do not run into the Bible problem above, which is I believe what WP:ATT is trying to avoid, because we're not dealing with anything that can be twisted inside out through differing interpretations. We know that Star Trek canon is defined for better or worse as the live-action TV episodes and movies. Since my major rewrite of this article back in January, I have tried to keep the cruft out and stick strictly to ST canon. There is of course an active debate on the canonicity of certain elements of the episodes and films, but that debate does not come into play here.
In addition, I have added cites to secondary sources (law review articles) which by definition meet what is asked for in the tag: "sources or references that appear in reliable, third-party publications". Wl219 05:29, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
The article is currently written in an "in-universe" style and relies on primary sources. Only after these problems are resolved should the maintenance tags be removed. Addhoc 18:39, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
"Picard also defends the entire human race's history in the first i"
.... huh? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.161.122.251 ( talk) 07:16, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
Just jumping in here.....
.... perhaps in order to bring this page out of stub statuts, someone should begin by introducing specific instances in the Star Trek episodes where law was the central focus. An example is when Picard defends Data's rights as a citizen; another would be Spock's court martial in "The Menagerie". Thoughts? — Preceding unsigned comment added by DarkSummoner ( talk • contribs) 04:51, 6 July 2014 (UTC)
I plan to add examples from TNG episodes; 'Measure of a Man' and 'The Outcast' based on fundamental rights in star trek; maybe also 'Pen Pals' and others for information on the prime directive. Perhaps examples from other star trek series would be beneficial? Cassie Schebel, almost a savant. <3 ( talk) 20:08, 28 March 2022 (UTC)