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edit summary.
This article's subject has mentioned it in the past.
Cunningham, Melissa (19 July 2018).
"Far-right mouthpiece Lauren Southern 'hit with hefty police bill'". The Age. Retrieved 6 March 2022. Lauren Southern has become the second controversial alt-right commentator to be slapped with a hefty police bill ahead of her controversial show in Melbourne.
Lombroso, Daniel (16 October 2020).
"Why the Alt-Right's Most Famous Woman Disappeared". The Atlantic.
Archived from the original on 15 November 2020. Retrieved 19 December 2020. Southern was only in her early 20s, but she had already emerged as the alt-right's most influential woman.}}
Sources describing Southern as "far-right" include:
Some academics and journalists have described Southern as a white nationalist, Sources discussing Southern in relation to white nationalism include:
Lombroso, Daniel (16 October 2020).
"Why the Alt-Right's Most Famous Woman Disappeared". The Atlantic.
Archived from the original on 15 November 2020. Retrieved 19 December 2020. By the time Southern went on McInnes's show, I had been following her for nearly a year. I was making a documentary for The Atlantic about the white-nationalist movement, called White Noise. I'd already become accustomed to the accommodations Southern made to stay within a movement whose hatreds are prolific. (Southern denies being a white nationalist.)
Robison-Greene, Rachel; Greene, Richard (2020).
Conspiracy Theories: Philosophers Connect the Dots. Open Court. p. 88.
ISBN978-0812694833. Camus's notion of the Great Replacement has been spread by right-wing and white nationalist figures across the world. In July 2018, Lauren Southern, a Canadian alt-right figure posted, a video titled 'The Great Replacement' on YouTube that got over 250,000 views.
Strick, Simon (2020). "The Alternative Right, Masculinities, and Ordinary Affect".
Right-Wing Populism and Gender. transcript Verlag. pp. 207–230.
doi:
10.1515/9783839449806-012.
ISBN978-3839449806 – via www.degruyter.com. On behalf of Robinson, a diverse assortment of right-wing celebrities spoke at Whitehall: Canadian white nationalist Lauren Southern...
My only issue with these sources is that they are all outdated. They all take place before her "transformation." Do sources still refer to her as alt-right? Since 2020, it appears that she genuinely has become a different person. However, I do acknowledge that policy is not on her side if no recent sources merely describe her as "conservative". I no longer feel that "alt-right" is an accurate descriptor of her current views (I was and still am genuinely disgusted by her past worldview). Is there any way we can replace these outdated references with newer ones. I have been struggling to find any.
Scorpions1325 (
talk)
00:13, 28 February 2024 (UTC)reply
The issue here is not about reliable sources, but that Wikipedia labels Southern as "alt-right" in the encyclopedic voice. The choice to do this shows editorial bias, is counterproductive, and brings Wikipedia into disrepute. The editorial decision here would be analogous to the article on
Kamala Harris beginning "Kamala Devi Harris... is a woke[a] American politician..." with the superscript citing all the reliable sources who have described Kamala Harris as "woke", and then saying to readers "if you have a problem with that, take it up with these sources". Wikipedia should never present opinion or labels as fact, but should instead contextualize. Here it would be better to say something like "described as alt right by many mainstream media outlets and social scientists".
Imagine someone coming to this article to find out more about Southern, having enjoyed some clip of her on youtube. They will read Wikipedia saying she is alt-right (citing a bunch of liberal sources), conclude that Wikipedia is biassed, leave the page, and look for information elsewhere. So you have actually deterred this person from reading legitimate criticism of Southern, and also given them reason to bad-mouth Wikipedia to their friends. Lose-lose. Geometry guy21:13, 8 February 2024 (UTC)reply
If you think Wikipedia shouldn't be describing individuals known for their political views in wikivoice from the left <-> right spectrum, you're going to need much broader consensus than you'll be able to achieve at one single article talk page, because this is extremely common practice when a person's political views are widely described in RS.
GorillaWarfare (she/her •
talk)
21:41, 9 February 2024 (UTC)reply
This is not describing political views but applying a pejorative label that the person does not accept. If you claim this is widely acceptable in the wikivoice by broad consensus, please point me to the policies and discussions which support your position. Also can you give some examples where a pejorative label is applied in the wikivoice to a living left wing politician. Geometry guy13:19, 11 February 2024 (UTC)reply
I don't know. It would help a lot if we could find something more recent than her piling on to a hashtag in 2016. "Altright", like "woke", can be pejorative or not, depending on who is saying it when, and with what meaning they intend. A sex positive feminist might proudly identify as "slut", but that does not necessarily mean we should use that label in the wikivoice. My impression is that "woke" and "altright" are both trending in the pejorative direction as the political debate becomes more polarised. All of this means an NPOV encyclopedia should be even more careful how these labels are used in articles. Geometry guy21:16, 12 February 2024 (UTC)reply
Geometry guy, besides her 2016 tweet there's also all the RS that was provided above and the fact that there doesn't appear to be any sources denying that she is alt-right. So it seems like it's ok to leave in. And she just seems to hold the alt-right ideology or do you disagree? How would you characterize her (regardless of RS)? And alt-right is a political movement with specific criteria and people who self identify with the label. "Woke" is an adjective with a loose definition and isn't a clearly defined political movement. Same with slut. They don't seem like the same thing. Also any political label can be pejorative if applied to the wrong person and that definitely goes for the altright label. Southern has self identified with the altright label in the past so it seems accurate until RS with due weight contradicts it.
Pokerplayer513 (
talk)
01:13, 13 February 2024 (UTC)reply
This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.
Libertarians are not alt-right. Please remove the slander claiming she is alt-right unless there is verifiable proof. Disagreeing with the extreme left does not qualify.
24.158.139.90 (
talk)
01:24, 16 October 2023 (UTC)reply
There is a little superscript "[a]" beside that claim in the lead, that displays a list of many reliable sources describing Southern as alt-right.
HiLo48 (
talk)
01:33, 16 October 2023 (UTC)reply
Lauren Southern dated Andrew Tate. Request for Addition to Personal Life?
About a year ago or so, Tommy Robinson, a former associate of Lauren Southern, claimed in a video titled: "Fake Rape Allegations: Andrew Tate The Truth" on Rumble.com, that he witnessed her in a relationship with Andrew Tate back in 2018, either early or mid 2018. He said he, Caolan Roberton and Lauren spent some time in Romania at Tate's house and got a lay of the land, so to say.
Separately, this Caolan Robertson, who is definitely associate of Lauren and Tommy's and his/her former camera man, also hinted in a post about Lauren, though not naming her specifically, that she was sexually assaulted by Tate at some point on the same day he went on a tour throughout Tate's house, all in Romania. He said this in a tweet on twitter that was deleted on or around 30th December 2022, about a year ago now.
I wonder, is this information relevant enough for her article? The relationship has not been confirmed by Lauren, but she's been radio silent on Andrew Tate regarding any mention of him, which is surprising for her content - since she talks about men in the alt-right/right-wing sphere occasionally. Tommy Robinson is a witness to a relationship that isn't commonly known by most people. However, Tate is a well known public figure and so is she, so is it possible someone here can edit her article to include this information in the section on her personal life? If I provide the Robinson video where he makes the claim, would that make an edit more likely?
176.61.110.190 (
talk)
01:26, 23 November 2023 (UTC)reply
It's not a rumor, it was literally said by a man who was with her in Romania. Caolan Robertson was also with her and indirectly referred to her in a tweet that she was involved with Andrew Tate.
An article from The Atlantic is referenced in her personal life section quoting Daniel Lombroso supposedly quoting Lauren saying "She kept telling me she had grown more 'compassionate,' but whenever I asked her pointedly if she regretted her past work, I got obfuscation and tactical apologies." something she hasn't said in a video or a tweet and it's allowed to stay, even though it's just something he claimed she said - but two associates of Lauren's both saying in different ways that she was with Tate translates as a rumor?
176.61.110.190 (
talk)
01:00, 14 May 2024 (UTC)reply
"...indirectly referred to her in a tweet..." Okay, so what are we supposed to do with that? Does a reliable, verifiable source (meaning a published source) say that Caolan Robertson tweeted about this, and does that reliable, published source explain why this is anything more than gossip?
Grayfell (
talk)
04:46, 14 May 2024 (UTC)reply
I'll quote the tweet Caolan Robertson posted on 31st December, 2022 and deleted shortly after.
"Andrew showed me his webcam room where he forces women against their will to make porn and sexually assaulted someone close to me. Both in the same day." There are screenshots of that tweet. No interview with Caolan was conducted about the tweet and not many people know about the tweet or even Tommy Robinson's video claim about seeing her being in a relationship with him. Lauren doesn't identify as "Alt-right", yet it's at the top of her page as if she self-identified with that label, just because a bunch of news outlets with opinion pieces called her as such.
If a New York Times opinion piece claimed Lauren was a dog, would you believe them just because they're considered a "reliable, verifiable source" every other time?
176.61.110.190 (
talk)
18:12, 14 May 2024 (UTC)reply
So in other words, the answer to my question is "no". If no reliable source has mentioned this, neither should we. As an encyclopedia, Wikipedia articles mainly summarize reliable sources.
If, instead, this is all just a convoluted argument to remove 'alt-right' from the lead, the talk page already has many past discussions of this, and again, Wikipedia mainly summarizes reliable sources.
Grayfell (
talk)
18:38, 14 May 2024 (UTC)reply
Lauren Southern isn't part of the Alt-right, she's part of the dissident right
Dissident right is a range of people on the right unsatisfied with the neocon status quo that covers more populist views all the way to the alt-right, alt-right is a fringe idea within the dissident right. Lauren has criticized capitalism on numerous occasions. She's actually more of a socially conservative libertarian social democrat. Lauren supports Russia and is a fan of Alexander Dugin, someone who many American communists (Caleb Maupin, Jackson Hinkle, Haz al-Din) are fans of. She was friends with some people who were friends with Nazis (like Brittany Pettibone, not a Nazi herself but chummy with some of the more "moderate" ones like Lana Lokteff who for some reason affiliates with Nazi scumbag David Duke). If we run through the transitive property, then isn't most of BreadTube part of the alt-right because after all, shoe0nhead, a BreadTuber, is friends with Lauren Southern.
72.72.201.226 (
talk)
13:26, 30 May 2024 (UTC)reply
Excellent. Please reference some credible sources that identify her as part of the "dissident right", we'll be able to make the change.
Robincantin (
talk)
23:59, 30 May 2024 (UTC)reply
This article is written in
Canadian English, which has its own spelling conventions (colour, centre, travelled, realize, analyze) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other
varieties of English. According to the
relevant style guide, this should not be changed without
broad consensus.
This article was nominated for
deletion on 26 August 2016. The result of
the discussion was no consensus.
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or
poorly sourcedmust be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially
libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to
this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page.
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Wikipedia's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to
join the project and
contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the
documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Canada, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
Canada on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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This article is within the scope of WikiProject Politics, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
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Feminism on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.FeminismWikipedia:WikiProject FeminismTemplate:WikiProject FeminismFeminism articles
This article is part of WikiProject Gender studies. This
WikiProject aims to improve the quality of articles dealing with gender studies and to remove systematic gender bias from Wikipedia. If you would like to participate in the project, you can choose to edit this article, or visit the
project page for more information.Gender studiesWikipedia:WikiProject Gender studiesTemplate:WikiProject Gender studiesGender studies articles
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This article is within the scope of WikiProject Internet culture, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
internet culture on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Internet cultureWikipedia:WikiProject Internet cultureTemplate:WikiProject Internet cultureInternet culture articles
The following Wikipedia contributors may be personally or professionally connected to the subject of this article. Relevant policies and guidelines may include
conflict of interest,
autobiography, and
neutral point of view.
This topic contains
controversial issues, some of which have reached a consensus for approach and neutrality, and some of which may be
disputed.
Before making any potentially controversial changes to the article, please carefully read the discussion-page dialogue to see if the issue has been raised before, and ensure that your edit meets all of Wikipedia's
policies and guidelines. Please also ensure you use an accurate and concise
edit summary.
This article's subject has mentioned it in the past.
Cunningham, Melissa (19 July 2018).
"Far-right mouthpiece Lauren Southern 'hit with hefty police bill'". The Age. Retrieved 6 March 2022. Lauren Southern has become the second controversial alt-right commentator to be slapped with a hefty police bill ahead of her controversial show in Melbourne.
Lombroso, Daniel (16 October 2020).
"Why the Alt-Right's Most Famous Woman Disappeared". The Atlantic.
Archived from the original on 15 November 2020. Retrieved 19 December 2020. Southern was only in her early 20s, but she had already emerged as the alt-right's most influential woman.}}
Sources describing Southern as "far-right" include:
Some academics and journalists have described Southern as a white nationalist, Sources discussing Southern in relation to white nationalism include:
Lombroso, Daniel (16 October 2020).
"Why the Alt-Right's Most Famous Woman Disappeared". The Atlantic.
Archived from the original on 15 November 2020. Retrieved 19 December 2020. By the time Southern went on McInnes's show, I had been following her for nearly a year. I was making a documentary for The Atlantic about the white-nationalist movement, called White Noise. I'd already become accustomed to the accommodations Southern made to stay within a movement whose hatreds are prolific. (Southern denies being a white nationalist.)
Robison-Greene, Rachel; Greene, Richard (2020).
Conspiracy Theories: Philosophers Connect the Dots. Open Court. p. 88.
ISBN978-0812694833. Camus's notion of the Great Replacement has been spread by right-wing and white nationalist figures across the world. In July 2018, Lauren Southern, a Canadian alt-right figure posted, a video titled 'The Great Replacement' on YouTube that got over 250,000 views.
Strick, Simon (2020). "The Alternative Right, Masculinities, and Ordinary Affect".
Right-Wing Populism and Gender. transcript Verlag. pp. 207–230.
doi:
10.1515/9783839449806-012.
ISBN978-3839449806 – via www.degruyter.com. On behalf of Robinson, a diverse assortment of right-wing celebrities spoke at Whitehall: Canadian white nationalist Lauren Southern...
My only issue with these sources is that they are all outdated. They all take place before her "transformation." Do sources still refer to her as alt-right? Since 2020, it appears that she genuinely has become a different person. However, I do acknowledge that policy is not on her side if no recent sources merely describe her as "conservative". I no longer feel that "alt-right" is an accurate descriptor of her current views (I was and still am genuinely disgusted by her past worldview). Is there any way we can replace these outdated references with newer ones. I have been struggling to find any.
Scorpions1325 (
talk)
00:13, 28 February 2024 (UTC)reply
The issue here is not about reliable sources, but that Wikipedia labels Southern as "alt-right" in the encyclopedic voice. The choice to do this shows editorial bias, is counterproductive, and brings Wikipedia into disrepute. The editorial decision here would be analogous to the article on
Kamala Harris beginning "Kamala Devi Harris... is a woke[a] American politician..." with the superscript citing all the reliable sources who have described Kamala Harris as "woke", and then saying to readers "if you have a problem with that, take it up with these sources". Wikipedia should never present opinion or labels as fact, but should instead contextualize. Here it would be better to say something like "described as alt right by many mainstream media outlets and social scientists".
Imagine someone coming to this article to find out more about Southern, having enjoyed some clip of her on youtube. They will read Wikipedia saying she is alt-right (citing a bunch of liberal sources), conclude that Wikipedia is biassed, leave the page, and look for information elsewhere. So you have actually deterred this person from reading legitimate criticism of Southern, and also given them reason to bad-mouth Wikipedia to their friends. Lose-lose. Geometry guy21:13, 8 February 2024 (UTC)reply
If you think Wikipedia shouldn't be describing individuals known for their political views in wikivoice from the left <-> right spectrum, you're going to need much broader consensus than you'll be able to achieve at one single article talk page, because this is extremely common practice when a person's political views are widely described in RS.
GorillaWarfare (she/her •
talk)
21:41, 9 February 2024 (UTC)reply
This is not describing political views but applying a pejorative label that the person does not accept. If you claim this is widely acceptable in the wikivoice by broad consensus, please point me to the policies and discussions which support your position. Also can you give some examples where a pejorative label is applied in the wikivoice to a living left wing politician. Geometry guy13:19, 11 February 2024 (UTC)reply
I don't know. It would help a lot if we could find something more recent than her piling on to a hashtag in 2016. "Altright", like "woke", can be pejorative or not, depending on who is saying it when, and with what meaning they intend. A sex positive feminist might proudly identify as "slut", but that does not necessarily mean we should use that label in the wikivoice. My impression is that "woke" and "altright" are both trending in the pejorative direction as the political debate becomes more polarised. All of this means an NPOV encyclopedia should be even more careful how these labels are used in articles. Geometry guy21:16, 12 February 2024 (UTC)reply
Geometry guy, besides her 2016 tweet there's also all the RS that was provided above and the fact that there doesn't appear to be any sources denying that she is alt-right. So it seems like it's ok to leave in. And she just seems to hold the alt-right ideology or do you disagree? How would you characterize her (regardless of RS)? And alt-right is a political movement with specific criteria and people who self identify with the label. "Woke" is an adjective with a loose definition and isn't a clearly defined political movement. Same with slut. They don't seem like the same thing. Also any political label can be pejorative if applied to the wrong person and that definitely goes for the altright label. Southern has self identified with the altright label in the past so it seems accurate until RS with due weight contradicts it.
Pokerplayer513 (
talk)
01:13, 13 February 2024 (UTC)reply
This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.
Libertarians are not alt-right. Please remove the slander claiming she is alt-right unless there is verifiable proof. Disagreeing with the extreme left does not qualify.
24.158.139.90 (
talk)
01:24, 16 October 2023 (UTC)reply
There is a little superscript "[a]" beside that claim in the lead, that displays a list of many reliable sources describing Southern as alt-right.
HiLo48 (
talk)
01:33, 16 October 2023 (UTC)reply
Lauren Southern dated Andrew Tate. Request for Addition to Personal Life?
About a year ago or so, Tommy Robinson, a former associate of Lauren Southern, claimed in a video titled: "Fake Rape Allegations: Andrew Tate The Truth" on Rumble.com, that he witnessed her in a relationship with Andrew Tate back in 2018, either early or mid 2018. He said he, Caolan Roberton and Lauren spent some time in Romania at Tate's house and got a lay of the land, so to say.
Separately, this Caolan Robertson, who is definitely associate of Lauren and Tommy's and his/her former camera man, also hinted in a post about Lauren, though not naming her specifically, that she was sexually assaulted by Tate at some point on the same day he went on a tour throughout Tate's house, all in Romania. He said this in a tweet on twitter that was deleted on or around 30th December 2022, about a year ago now.
I wonder, is this information relevant enough for her article? The relationship has not been confirmed by Lauren, but she's been radio silent on Andrew Tate regarding any mention of him, which is surprising for her content - since she talks about men in the alt-right/right-wing sphere occasionally. Tommy Robinson is a witness to a relationship that isn't commonly known by most people. However, Tate is a well known public figure and so is she, so is it possible someone here can edit her article to include this information in the section on her personal life? If I provide the Robinson video where he makes the claim, would that make an edit more likely?
176.61.110.190 (
talk)
01:26, 23 November 2023 (UTC)reply
It's not a rumor, it was literally said by a man who was with her in Romania. Caolan Robertson was also with her and indirectly referred to her in a tweet that she was involved with Andrew Tate.
An article from The Atlantic is referenced in her personal life section quoting Daniel Lombroso supposedly quoting Lauren saying "She kept telling me she had grown more 'compassionate,' but whenever I asked her pointedly if she regretted her past work, I got obfuscation and tactical apologies." something she hasn't said in a video or a tweet and it's allowed to stay, even though it's just something he claimed she said - but two associates of Lauren's both saying in different ways that she was with Tate translates as a rumor?
176.61.110.190 (
talk)
01:00, 14 May 2024 (UTC)reply
"...indirectly referred to her in a tweet..." Okay, so what are we supposed to do with that? Does a reliable, verifiable source (meaning a published source) say that Caolan Robertson tweeted about this, and does that reliable, published source explain why this is anything more than gossip?
Grayfell (
talk)
04:46, 14 May 2024 (UTC)reply
I'll quote the tweet Caolan Robertson posted on 31st December, 2022 and deleted shortly after.
"Andrew showed me his webcam room where he forces women against their will to make porn and sexually assaulted someone close to me. Both in the same day." There are screenshots of that tweet. No interview with Caolan was conducted about the tweet and not many people know about the tweet or even Tommy Robinson's video claim about seeing her being in a relationship with him. Lauren doesn't identify as "Alt-right", yet it's at the top of her page as if she self-identified with that label, just because a bunch of news outlets with opinion pieces called her as such.
If a New York Times opinion piece claimed Lauren was a dog, would you believe them just because they're considered a "reliable, verifiable source" every other time?
176.61.110.190 (
talk)
18:12, 14 May 2024 (UTC)reply
So in other words, the answer to my question is "no". If no reliable source has mentioned this, neither should we. As an encyclopedia, Wikipedia articles mainly summarize reliable sources.
If, instead, this is all just a convoluted argument to remove 'alt-right' from the lead, the talk page already has many past discussions of this, and again, Wikipedia mainly summarizes reliable sources.
Grayfell (
talk)
18:38, 14 May 2024 (UTC)reply
Lauren Southern isn't part of the Alt-right, she's part of the dissident right
Dissident right is a range of people on the right unsatisfied with the neocon status quo that covers more populist views all the way to the alt-right, alt-right is a fringe idea within the dissident right. Lauren has criticized capitalism on numerous occasions. She's actually more of a socially conservative libertarian social democrat. Lauren supports Russia and is a fan of Alexander Dugin, someone who many American communists (Caleb Maupin, Jackson Hinkle, Haz al-Din) are fans of. She was friends with some people who were friends with Nazis (like Brittany Pettibone, not a Nazi herself but chummy with some of the more "moderate" ones like Lana Lokteff who for some reason affiliates with Nazi scumbag David Duke). If we run through the transitive property, then isn't most of BreadTube part of the alt-right because after all, shoe0nhead, a BreadTuber, is friends with Lauren Southern.
72.72.201.226 (
talk)
13:26, 30 May 2024 (UTC)reply
Excellent. Please reference some credible sources that identify her as part of the "dissident right", we'll be able to make the change.
Robincantin (
talk)
23:59, 30 May 2024 (UTC)reply