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The disputed lead line has been changed to a factual statement. Tiptext ( talk) 00:13, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
Each sentence is a factual statement. There is no discussion that could be construed as "unbalanced." Tiptext ( talk) 03:49, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
There are no quotes from a lobbying group in this article. Tiptext ( talk) 03:49, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
There is no subjective wording in this article. It states factual information only. Tiptext ( talk) 03:49, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
1. Expert: "skilled or knowledgeable person; someone with a great deal of knowledge about, or skill or training or experience in, a particular field." Encarta World English Dictionary; If Lederer's J.D. degree, 10 years gathering the laws worldwide that address human trafficking and related issues, and building a database; work on the Trafficking Victims Protection Act; testifying as a subject matter expert on human trafficking; serving on the U.N.'s Experts Working Group on Trafficking in Persons; being hired as a subject matter expert on human trafficking; teaching the first law school course on trafficking in persons doesn't qualify her as an "expert," then what does? This is not a peacock term.
2. Whoever I am curious blue is, he/she is incorrectly stating the Bush Administration policy on human trafficking. It does not conflate sex work and human trafficking. The commentator may want to/should write a treatise on the debate on sex trafficking and prostitution (please do!), but it is not appropriate here.
3. This commentator attacks the Wikipedia sites of all feminists with whom he/she disagrees politically. Tiptext ( talk) 00:46, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
Huon: Iamcuriousblue has posted subjective warnings on five feminists who are working to stop human trafficking. Iamcuriousblue posted warnings on this site but did not make an entry supporting his warnings until after his warnings were taken down by other editors. I'm not being uncivil here: just stating what his/her modus operandi seems to be. Iamcuriousblue is a play of words on the pornography movie, "I am Curious Yellow."
Huon should note which references he objects to. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tiptext ( talk • contribs) 03:11, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
There are no quotes from any lobbying group or advocacy group in this article. This article is original material written and then sourced to support it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tiptext ( talk • contribs) 03:14, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
Hi Huon. I just looked up well-known feminists and went to the discussion section. At least five feminists have had the same tags put on their articles by iamcurious. It's easy to find: just go to the disussion section of any feminist working to stop human trafficking and commercial sexual exploitation of women and children. You can look at full history and discussion. Here are my responses to your concerns about the footnotes:
1. I couldn't get the URL link because apparently its an internal on-line archive at UC Berkeley. It is the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force materials. They have the early archives for the first work done in S.F. I will attempt to link to another Wiki site that quotes this, but maybe someone else has this link. In any event, other Wiki websites cite this archive and aren't being challenged for having weak sources.
2. It's true that the book describing the Global Fund for Women was written by one of the founders. Does that make it any less informative? It states the fact that the co-founders of the Global Fund for Women were Dame Nita Barrow, Frances Kissling, Anne Firth Murray and myself. It's a fact and is supported by this book. Not a weak source for factual statement about founders of an organization.
3. The URL is directly to the Protection Project itself, now at SAIS. It allows the reader to view the statutes and other material, and supports the fact that TPP is now at Johns Hopkins.
4. Can't get any closer to the hearings themselves than the actual site that holds the records of all the hearings.
5. Will look for the relevant page numbers and add.
6, 7, and 8. I merely meant to help the reader find the law. Will remove this reference.
9. URL to Georgetown will take you to course materials, including listing of Lederer as adjunct professor and syllabi from Lederer's course on international human trafficking. Doesn't this prove, or source, the statement that she teaches this course?
I'm happy to keep footnote on "expert" until further information from newspaper articles is added. Tiptext ( talk) 18:42, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
I have removed the "references" Tiptext agreed weren't really references, added lots of {{ Fact}} tags to unsourced statements, and added a reference. That's still not a good reference because it is, in effect, her employer, who will be less likely than an independent source to note criticism of Lederer, but it's better than anything we had before. I've also removed excessive detail, such as the course she teaches. Unless there's a secondary source taking note of the course, such information is too much detail for an encyclopedia article. And Tiptext, unless you can actually provide a link to one of Iamcuriousblue's edits you object to (the way I did above), I won't listen to what amounts to slander any more. Huon ( talk) 01:03, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
I don't mind someone editing articles that are about sex work or women against pornography, however, this is an article that state what Lederer has been doing over the past ten years. It doesn't have to do with sex work. It doesn't make any claims about a particular point of view. It states that Lederer founded The Protection Project in 1997. The arguments about sex work are perfect for the point of view pieces on Women and Porgraphy or even on human trafficking. There is no "slant" in this article.
The places iamcuriousblue (like the porn movie "I Am Curious Yellow,") has placed similar labels ("cherrypicking," "advocacy and lobbying" "subjective" are: Melissa Farley; Dorchen Leidholdt, Diana Russell, Nikki Craft, and Laura Lederer. There may be others. These women have advanced degrees, and are teachers, scholars, researchers, and attorneys. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tiptext ( talk • contribs) 03:59, 28 November 2008 (UTC)
This would be a minor change in the title. Right now, "Laura Lederer" redirects to "Laura J. Lederer". I think this should be the other way around, based on the guideline that Wikipedia biography titles should carry the most commonly cited version of the individual's name. The results of several Google tests are as follows:
"Laura Lederer" -wikipedia:
Google: 5320 hits Google Scholar: 372 hits Google Books: 638 hits
"Laura J. Lederer" -wikipedia:
Google: 814 hits Google Scholar: 70 hits Google Books: 52 hits
It seems pretty clear the former is more common. Looking at Amazon.com, it seems that's the name that appears on her published books as well. Iamcuriousblue ( talk) 20:17, 28 November 2008 (UTC)
Natfbey has added several sources to the article. While more sources are always commendable, unfortunately I had to remove some of them.
I left the other two sources, but I have some doubts: The DC Stop Modern Slavery Group looks not quite reliable by Wikipedia's standards, and the American Enterprise Institute pdf looks more like lecture notes than like the result of a research program. Huon ( talk) 22:05, 26 July 2009 (UTC)
First, I want to thank Huon for the efforts he's made so far to clean up this article. For my part, I went over the article trying to clean up some of the peacocky language in the article, but ultimately cleanup is very difficult. The article reads like a promotional resume, and although not always overt, seems to promote Lederer as a kind of anti-trafficking hero. Also, there's the fact that the majority of this article is either non-referenced, unsupported by its cited references, or supported only by very weak, ephemeral sources. Finally, there's the fact that Lederer and her views on pornography, hate speech, and human trafficking are extremely controversial, which is 1) not mentioned at all in the article and 2) the language in article is subtly POV and promotional about some of her more controversial views. For example, her "efforts against harmful speech" – anti-censorship activists who are opposed to the views of MacKinnon, Delgado, and Lederer might see things differently and see the term "harmful speech" as slanted. Similarly the "bi-partisan coalition" against human trafficking – actually this was a coalition between evangelicals and radical feminists toward a particular approach to the human trafficking issue that conflated it with sex work. There has been a lot of opposition to that approach (and I'll note that Luis CdeBaca, Obama's head of the anti-trafficking office, takes a very different approach to the issue), and "bi-partisan" falsely creates the impression of consensus.
Those are just a few of the key problems I see with the article. I think 1) the article needs some severe editing – if statements can't be properly cited, they simply need to go, even if that means shortening the article. The article needs to then be expanded from what good sources can be found. There needs to be balance here – the article so far draws heavily on sources supportive of Lederer, but as per WP:CONTROVERSY, critical sources (like the "Enslaved by his Sources" article in the External links) need to be used as well. In all cases, care must be taken to use as neutral of language when describing areas of controversy. Iamcuriousblue ( talk) 03:50, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
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This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Laura Lederer article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
![]() | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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![]() | The subject of this article is controversial and content may be in dispute. When updating the article, be bold, but not reckless. Feel free to try to improve the article, but don't take it personally if your changes are reversed; instead, come here to the talk page to discuss them. Content must be written from a neutral point of view. Include citations when adding content and consider tagging or removing unsourced information. |
The disputed lead line has been changed to a factual statement. Tiptext ( talk) 00:13, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
Each sentence is a factual statement. There is no discussion that could be construed as "unbalanced." Tiptext ( talk) 03:49, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
There are no quotes from a lobbying group in this article. Tiptext ( talk) 03:49, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
There is no subjective wording in this article. It states factual information only. Tiptext ( talk) 03:49, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
1. Expert: "skilled or knowledgeable person; someone with a great deal of knowledge about, or skill or training or experience in, a particular field." Encarta World English Dictionary; If Lederer's J.D. degree, 10 years gathering the laws worldwide that address human trafficking and related issues, and building a database; work on the Trafficking Victims Protection Act; testifying as a subject matter expert on human trafficking; serving on the U.N.'s Experts Working Group on Trafficking in Persons; being hired as a subject matter expert on human trafficking; teaching the first law school course on trafficking in persons doesn't qualify her as an "expert," then what does? This is not a peacock term.
2. Whoever I am curious blue is, he/she is incorrectly stating the Bush Administration policy on human trafficking. It does not conflate sex work and human trafficking. The commentator may want to/should write a treatise on the debate on sex trafficking and prostitution (please do!), but it is not appropriate here.
3. This commentator attacks the Wikipedia sites of all feminists with whom he/she disagrees politically. Tiptext ( talk) 00:46, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
Huon: Iamcuriousblue has posted subjective warnings on five feminists who are working to stop human trafficking. Iamcuriousblue posted warnings on this site but did not make an entry supporting his warnings until after his warnings were taken down by other editors. I'm not being uncivil here: just stating what his/her modus operandi seems to be. Iamcuriousblue is a play of words on the pornography movie, "I am Curious Yellow."
Huon should note which references he objects to. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tiptext ( talk • contribs) 03:11, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
There are no quotes from any lobbying group or advocacy group in this article. This article is original material written and then sourced to support it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tiptext ( talk • contribs) 03:14, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
Hi Huon. I just looked up well-known feminists and went to the discussion section. At least five feminists have had the same tags put on their articles by iamcurious. It's easy to find: just go to the disussion section of any feminist working to stop human trafficking and commercial sexual exploitation of women and children. You can look at full history and discussion. Here are my responses to your concerns about the footnotes:
1. I couldn't get the URL link because apparently its an internal on-line archive at UC Berkeley. It is the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force materials. They have the early archives for the first work done in S.F. I will attempt to link to another Wiki site that quotes this, but maybe someone else has this link. In any event, other Wiki websites cite this archive and aren't being challenged for having weak sources.
2. It's true that the book describing the Global Fund for Women was written by one of the founders. Does that make it any less informative? It states the fact that the co-founders of the Global Fund for Women were Dame Nita Barrow, Frances Kissling, Anne Firth Murray and myself. It's a fact and is supported by this book. Not a weak source for factual statement about founders of an organization.
3. The URL is directly to the Protection Project itself, now at SAIS. It allows the reader to view the statutes and other material, and supports the fact that TPP is now at Johns Hopkins.
4. Can't get any closer to the hearings themselves than the actual site that holds the records of all the hearings.
5. Will look for the relevant page numbers and add.
6, 7, and 8. I merely meant to help the reader find the law. Will remove this reference.
9. URL to Georgetown will take you to course materials, including listing of Lederer as adjunct professor and syllabi from Lederer's course on international human trafficking. Doesn't this prove, or source, the statement that she teaches this course?
I'm happy to keep footnote on "expert" until further information from newspaper articles is added. Tiptext ( talk) 18:42, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
I have removed the "references" Tiptext agreed weren't really references, added lots of {{ Fact}} tags to unsourced statements, and added a reference. That's still not a good reference because it is, in effect, her employer, who will be less likely than an independent source to note criticism of Lederer, but it's better than anything we had before. I've also removed excessive detail, such as the course she teaches. Unless there's a secondary source taking note of the course, such information is too much detail for an encyclopedia article. And Tiptext, unless you can actually provide a link to one of Iamcuriousblue's edits you object to (the way I did above), I won't listen to what amounts to slander any more. Huon ( talk) 01:03, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
I don't mind someone editing articles that are about sex work or women against pornography, however, this is an article that state what Lederer has been doing over the past ten years. It doesn't have to do with sex work. It doesn't make any claims about a particular point of view. It states that Lederer founded The Protection Project in 1997. The arguments about sex work are perfect for the point of view pieces on Women and Porgraphy or even on human trafficking. There is no "slant" in this article.
The places iamcuriousblue (like the porn movie "I Am Curious Yellow,") has placed similar labels ("cherrypicking," "advocacy and lobbying" "subjective" are: Melissa Farley; Dorchen Leidholdt, Diana Russell, Nikki Craft, and Laura Lederer. There may be others. These women have advanced degrees, and are teachers, scholars, researchers, and attorneys. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tiptext ( talk • contribs) 03:59, 28 November 2008 (UTC)
This would be a minor change in the title. Right now, "Laura Lederer" redirects to "Laura J. Lederer". I think this should be the other way around, based on the guideline that Wikipedia biography titles should carry the most commonly cited version of the individual's name. The results of several Google tests are as follows:
"Laura Lederer" -wikipedia:
Google: 5320 hits Google Scholar: 372 hits Google Books: 638 hits
"Laura J. Lederer" -wikipedia:
Google: 814 hits Google Scholar: 70 hits Google Books: 52 hits
It seems pretty clear the former is more common. Looking at Amazon.com, it seems that's the name that appears on her published books as well. Iamcuriousblue ( talk) 20:17, 28 November 2008 (UTC)
Natfbey has added several sources to the article. While more sources are always commendable, unfortunately I had to remove some of them.
I left the other two sources, but I have some doubts: The DC Stop Modern Slavery Group looks not quite reliable by Wikipedia's standards, and the American Enterprise Institute pdf looks more like lecture notes than like the result of a research program. Huon ( talk) 22:05, 26 July 2009 (UTC)
First, I want to thank Huon for the efforts he's made so far to clean up this article. For my part, I went over the article trying to clean up some of the peacocky language in the article, but ultimately cleanup is very difficult. The article reads like a promotional resume, and although not always overt, seems to promote Lederer as a kind of anti-trafficking hero. Also, there's the fact that the majority of this article is either non-referenced, unsupported by its cited references, or supported only by very weak, ephemeral sources. Finally, there's the fact that Lederer and her views on pornography, hate speech, and human trafficking are extremely controversial, which is 1) not mentioned at all in the article and 2) the language in article is subtly POV and promotional about some of her more controversial views. For example, her "efforts against harmful speech" – anti-censorship activists who are opposed to the views of MacKinnon, Delgado, and Lederer might see things differently and see the term "harmful speech" as slanted. Similarly the "bi-partisan coalition" against human trafficking – actually this was a coalition between evangelicals and radical feminists toward a particular approach to the human trafficking issue that conflated it with sex work. There has been a lot of opposition to that approach (and I'll note that Luis CdeBaca, Obama's head of the anti-trafficking office, takes a very different approach to the issue), and "bi-partisan" falsely creates the impression of consensus.
Those are just a few of the key problems I see with the article. I think 1) the article needs some severe editing – if statements can't be properly cited, they simply need to go, even if that means shortening the article. The article needs to then be expanded from what good sources can be found. There needs to be balance here – the article so far draws heavily on sources supportive of Lederer, but as per WP:CONTROVERSY, critical sources (like the "Enslaved by his Sources" article in the External links) need to be used as well. In all cases, care must be taken to use as neutral of language when describing areas of controversy. Iamcuriousblue ( talk) 03:50, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
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