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Would anyone care to provide feedback on where to draw the line between material that belongs in this article vs. material that belongs in the Rocket article? Any help making this line "bright" would be appreciated! Sdsds 14:33, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
This article would be improved by adding a description of a launch. What happens; what it looks like, smells like and sounds like. For example, the USAF says, "The operation of launch vehicle engines produces significant sound levels. Generally, noise is generated from four sources during launches: (1) Combustion noise from launch vehicle chambers; (2) jet noise generated by the interaction of the exhaust jet and the atmosphere; (3) combustion noise from the post-burning of combustion products; and (4) sonic booms. Launch noise levels are highly dependent on the type of first-stage booster and the fuel used to propel the vehicle." http://www.regulations.gov/fdmspublic/component/main?main=DocumentDetail&o=09000064807e2c1b Where in the article can this type of information be most effectively added? ( sdsds - talk) 03:42, 21 February 2009 (UTC)
I'm Boldy removing the section describing the so-called classifications of launch system by capacity. This was discussed at Talk:Comparison of orbital launch systems some time ago, but the claims that this section makes regarding the classification of launch systems have no basis in fact, are not widely accepted, and are not supported by the references given. It one actually reads the documents in question, it is quite clear that the quote from Augustine has been cherry-picked, while McConnaughey makes it very clear that the definitions are only being made for the purposes of that document. In short, we are basing our entire description of payload capacity on one draft internal report from one agency in one country at one time. That is not representative or encyclopaedic. -- W. D. Graham 22:58, 5 October 2012 (UTC)
I have two issues with this change: one procedural, the question which is the consensus text, the other whether the statement is true and sufficiently sourced.
I was under the impression the text I reverted to was the consensus, hence my revert and insistence discussion should come before adding it back. If you are correct and the list of categories was present as long as two years ago and a new consensus was not subsequently reached, then of course we need to go back to the version with the list and discuss first before removing it. I'm not persuaded you are correct about this, but I'll be happy to be better informed.
As for the substantive argument, three editors have disagreed with you for the same reason, and the source provided does not back up the assertion that this is a widely accepted classification. Why do you disagree? I'd like to see some arguments for it. Martijn Meijering ( talk) 16:19, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
OK, I'm persuaded that the text with the classification represents the consensus text and since W.D. Graham's bold deletion was challenged, we need to discuss it first before we can restore it. Nevertheless, three editors have agreed with the argument the list in its present form needs to go, so let's hear some arguments why it needs to stay. Martijn Meijering ( talk) 16:28, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
I thought the above discussion went a little beyond real data into some wishfulness. Here is some real data: I came along trying to learn about launch vehicles. I know that ULA sells some big ones, and the Russians and the French also. But what vehicles exactly? And I remember that the old Saturn rocket was huge, I seem to remember that it was bigger than anything we have now. I'd like to learn more about all this. At the present, this article has a section named "By size" with 5 graduations in size. The links for only two of these sizes work. The subject is just not well covered. I'd rather see a table with a list of LV's ranging from say Large down to Small, listing all known rockets used to launch stuff and showing size, payload, owner, and maybe type of fuel. Then I could define my own categories if I needed categories. Friendly Person ( talk) 01:59, 26 March 2013 (UTC)
The External links section consists entirely of about a half dozen links to technical articles by S. A. Kamal. I don't question that Mr./Ms. Kamal is a fine researcher on these matters, but is having the External links section be an advert/linkfarm for his/her work make the article better? N2e ( talk) 15:47, 9 March 2013 (UTC)
I don't see any in the remarks about stages. Martijn Meijering ( talk) 20:34, 6 January 2014 (UTC)
I copy-edited the lead and first section:
Duxwing ( talk) 20:02, 28 March 2014 (UTC)
I am not familiar on launchers' technical lingo, but is "payload mass" the same as "lift capacity"? In aviation, the payload does not include the mass of the aircraft, just its useful cargo capacity. I am assuming a rocket's 'payload' is the equipment delivered to outer space, and it excludes the mass of the rocket, fuel and the multiple stages/engines to get it there. My point is that if "payload" is not the same as "lift capacity", then it should not be used as a synonym. Cheers, BatteryIncluded ( talk) 17:59, 7 September 2015 (UTC)
Request to merge article Space vehicle into Launch vehicle; dated: 03/2017. Proposer's Rationale: "Space vehicle" in space systems terminology refers to the satellite itself, whereas "launch vehicle" refers to the rocket. The current Space vehicle article is about rockets. Discuss here. -- 198.102.155.100 ( talk) 20:51, 29 March 2017 (UTC)
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@ Modest Genius: The purpose of a suborbital flight is not necessarily to put the payload into outer space, but to another point on Earth; suborbital spaceflights qualify as spaceflights because their flight path takes them through space. A flight is not intended to carry the payload to space unless it is orbital or beyond. The lead sentence describes the intended purpose of a launch vehicle. "A rocket used to carry a payload from Earth's surface to space" is not inclusive of suborbital flights; "a rocket used to carry a payload from Earth's surface through outer space, either to another surface point (suborbital), or into space (Earth orbit or beyond). " is all-inclusive. JustinTime55 ( talk) 17:39, 14 August 2018 (UTC)
"Distributed Lift" and "Distributed Launch" are marketing terms for one company, ULA. If you look at the current article, it has 3 references in that section. One is from NASA, and is referring to a distributed computer simulation, i.e. the "distributed computing" jargon term. One is a paper by ULA. One is a news article about SpaceX which does not mention either "distributed lift" or "distributed launch". SpaceX prefers to say that their proposed Starship architecture has on-orbit refueling.
I don't think we should be using the marketing term for one company in a general Wikipedia article. Greg ( talk) 05:44, 12 September 2020 (UTC)
Space vehicle and launch vehicle have an obviously similar definition. Soumya-8974 talk contribs subpages 13:57, 13 September 2020 (UTC)
With Starship 2 and possible alternate systems being created in the future there may come a time where the lower limit of what is Super Heavy launch vehicle does not really provide for true examples. I see two possible solutions to this moving ahead (and for future readers to consider - I made no changes myself). 1 - Change all the category limits up, or just the super-heavy minimum lift. I don't like this one myself for my own reasons. 2 - Create a new category for the systems that are truly immense starting at 150000kgs. I prefer this option going forward. Name it what you like, but I like Ultra Heavy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.109.89.11 ( talk) 01:31, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
This article features a groovy chart or diagram showing some different rockets. But what's the criteria for inclusion? Energia flew like two flights, not sure if N1 ever had a successful flight, Yenisei appears no where else in the article, both Starship variants aren't quite ready for prime-time, ditto for LongMarch9, and the 2 SLS versions. So 8 of the 14 aren't flying, or weren't particularly successful. Why not Soyuz for example, instead of the lamentable N1? Feldercarb ( talk) 17:26, 11 December 2021 (UTC)
An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect Return to launch site and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 January 26#Return to launch site until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. Skarmory (talk • contribs) 18:52, 26 January 2022 (UTC)
The above redirect is to a sourced section unilaterally removed by one editor who slimmed down this article [1]. It's worth double checking if the section removal and other aspects of that cut down is useful for readers, if not restore some content. Widefox; talk 21:48, 29 January 2022 (UTC)
While I understand what the article is saying here, can we accept that a reader less familiar with some topics might become confused by such an abstract and unclear term? Essentially, can someone with better wordsmithing skills than me come up with the best definition of 'the surface' for the opening of this article. We don't need to be excessively specific, but should we put, say, "the surface of the Earth/ Earth's surface" or "the surface of a planet", or what should we say? (We don't mean "the surface of the kitchen counter" or "the surface of a tumbling football" is what I am getting at.) Like I say, not trying to be picky, but I'm getting a serious writer's block trying to come up with the best term for what we're trying to say here. 2A00:23C7:3119:AD01:BD09:51F9:D6BC:1FFE ( talk) 17:04, 5 November 2022 (UTC)
is that a typo, a translation error, or someone trying to be cute? And "earth's house"? same question. 2603:800C:2101:17F0:6C49:C7A1:80AB:CC97 ( talk) 07:25, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
Since the term "carrier rocket" redirects here should the article not use the term somewhere? Gjxj ( talk) 01:39, 17 June 2024 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Launch vehicle article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This
level-4 vital article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
This article is written in American English, which has its own spelling conventions (color, defense, traveled) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus. |
To-do list for Launch vehicle: |
Would anyone care to provide feedback on where to draw the line between material that belongs in this article vs. material that belongs in the Rocket article? Any help making this line "bright" would be appreciated! Sdsds 14:33, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
This article would be improved by adding a description of a launch. What happens; what it looks like, smells like and sounds like. For example, the USAF says, "The operation of launch vehicle engines produces significant sound levels. Generally, noise is generated from four sources during launches: (1) Combustion noise from launch vehicle chambers; (2) jet noise generated by the interaction of the exhaust jet and the atmosphere; (3) combustion noise from the post-burning of combustion products; and (4) sonic booms. Launch noise levels are highly dependent on the type of first-stage booster and the fuel used to propel the vehicle." http://www.regulations.gov/fdmspublic/component/main?main=DocumentDetail&o=09000064807e2c1b Where in the article can this type of information be most effectively added? ( sdsds - talk) 03:42, 21 February 2009 (UTC)
I'm Boldy removing the section describing the so-called classifications of launch system by capacity. This was discussed at Talk:Comparison of orbital launch systems some time ago, but the claims that this section makes regarding the classification of launch systems have no basis in fact, are not widely accepted, and are not supported by the references given. It one actually reads the documents in question, it is quite clear that the quote from Augustine has been cherry-picked, while McConnaughey makes it very clear that the definitions are only being made for the purposes of that document. In short, we are basing our entire description of payload capacity on one draft internal report from one agency in one country at one time. That is not representative or encyclopaedic. -- W. D. Graham 22:58, 5 October 2012 (UTC)
I have two issues with this change: one procedural, the question which is the consensus text, the other whether the statement is true and sufficiently sourced.
I was under the impression the text I reverted to was the consensus, hence my revert and insistence discussion should come before adding it back. If you are correct and the list of categories was present as long as two years ago and a new consensus was not subsequently reached, then of course we need to go back to the version with the list and discuss first before removing it. I'm not persuaded you are correct about this, but I'll be happy to be better informed.
As for the substantive argument, three editors have disagreed with you for the same reason, and the source provided does not back up the assertion that this is a widely accepted classification. Why do you disagree? I'd like to see some arguments for it. Martijn Meijering ( talk) 16:19, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
OK, I'm persuaded that the text with the classification represents the consensus text and since W.D. Graham's bold deletion was challenged, we need to discuss it first before we can restore it. Nevertheless, three editors have agreed with the argument the list in its present form needs to go, so let's hear some arguments why it needs to stay. Martijn Meijering ( talk) 16:28, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
I thought the above discussion went a little beyond real data into some wishfulness. Here is some real data: I came along trying to learn about launch vehicles. I know that ULA sells some big ones, and the Russians and the French also. But what vehicles exactly? And I remember that the old Saturn rocket was huge, I seem to remember that it was bigger than anything we have now. I'd like to learn more about all this. At the present, this article has a section named "By size" with 5 graduations in size. The links for only two of these sizes work. The subject is just not well covered. I'd rather see a table with a list of LV's ranging from say Large down to Small, listing all known rockets used to launch stuff and showing size, payload, owner, and maybe type of fuel. Then I could define my own categories if I needed categories. Friendly Person ( talk) 01:59, 26 March 2013 (UTC)
The External links section consists entirely of about a half dozen links to technical articles by S. A. Kamal. I don't question that Mr./Ms. Kamal is a fine researcher on these matters, but is having the External links section be an advert/linkfarm for his/her work make the article better? N2e ( talk) 15:47, 9 March 2013 (UTC)
I don't see any in the remarks about stages. Martijn Meijering ( talk) 20:34, 6 January 2014 (UTC)
I copy-edited the lead and first section:
Duxwing ( talk) 20:02, 28 March 2014 (UTC)
I am not familiar on launchers' technical lingo, but is "payload mass" the same as "lift capacity"? In aviation, the payload does not include the mass of the aircraft, just its useful cargo capacity. I am assuming a rocket's 'payload' is the equipment delivered to outer space, and it excludes the mass of the rocket, fuel and the multiple stages/engines to get it there. My point is that if "payload" is not the same as "lift capacity", then it should not be used as a synonym. Cheers, BatteryIncluded ( talk) 17:59, 7 September 2015 (UTC)
Request to merge article Space vehicle into Launch vehicle; dated: 03/2017. Proposer's Rationale: "Space vehicle" in space systems terminology refers to the satellite itself, whereas "launch vehicle" refers to the rocket. The current Space vehicle article is about rockets. Discuss here. -- 198.102.155.100 ( talk) 20:51, 29 March 2017 (UTC)
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@ Modest Genius: The purpose of a suborbital flight is not necessarily to put the payload into outer space, but to another point on Earth; suborbital spaceflights qualify as spaceflights because their flight path takes them through space. A flight is not intended to carry the payload to space unless it is orbital or beyond. The lead sentence describes the intended purpose of a launch vehicle. "A rocket used to carry a payload from Earth's surface to space" is not inclusive of suborbital flights; "a rocket used to carry a payload from Earth's surface through outer space, either to another surface point (suborbital), or into space (Earth orbit or beyond). " is all-inclusive. JustinTime55 ( talk) 17:39, 14 August 2018 (UTC)
"Distributed Lift" and "Distributed Launch" are marketing terms for one company, ULA. If you look at the current article, it has 3 references in that section. One is from NASA, and is referring to a distributed computer simulation, i.e. the "distributed computing" jargon term. One is a paper by ULA. One is a news article about SpaceX which does not mention either "distributed lift" or "distributed launch". SpaceX prefers to say that their proposed Starship architecture has on-orbit refueling.
I don't think we should be using the marketing term for one company in a general Wikipedia article. Greg ( talk) 05:44, 12 September 2020 (UTC)
Space vehicle and launch vehicle have an obviously similar definition. Soumya-8974 talk contribs subpages 13:57, 13 September 2020 (UTC)
With Starship 2 and possible alternate systems being created in the future there may come a time where the lower limit of what is Super Heavy launch vehicle does not really provide for true examples. I see two possible solutions to this moving ahead (and for future readers to consider - I made no changes myself). 1 - Change all the category limits up, or just the super-heavy minimum lift. I don't like this one myself for my own reasons. 2 - Create a new category for the systems that are truly immense starting at 150000kgs. I prefer this option going forward. Name it what you like, but I like Ultra Heavy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.109.89.11 ( talk) 01:31, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
This article features a groovy chart or diagram showing some different rockets. But what's the criteria for inclusion? Energia flew like two flights, not sure if N1 ever had a successful flight, Yenisei appears no where else in the article, both Starship variants aren't quite ready for prime-time, ditto for LongMarch9, and the 2 SLS versions. So 8 of the 14 aren't flying, or weren't particularly successful. Why not Soyuz for example, instead of the lamentable N1? Feldercarb ( talk) 17:26, 11 December 2021 (UTC)
An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect Return to launch site and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 January 26#Return to launch site until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. Skarmory (talk • contribs) 18:52, 26 January 2022 (UTC)
The above redirect is to a sourced section unilaterally removed by one editor who slimmed down this article [1]. It's worth double checking if the section removal and other aspects of that cut down is useful for readers, if not restore some content. Widefox; talk 21:48, 29 January 2022 (UTC)
While I understand what the article is saying here, can we accept that a reader less familiar with some topics might become confused by such an abstract and unclear term? Essentially, can someone with better wordsmithing skills than me come up with the best definition of 'the surface' for the opening of this article. We don't need to be excessively specific, but should we put, say, "the surface of the Earth/ Earth's surface" or "the surface of a planet", or what should we say? (We don't mean "the surface of the kitchen counter" or "the surface of a tumbling football" is what I am getting at.) Like I say, not trying to be picky, but I'm getting a serious writer's block trying to come up with the best term for what we're trying to say here. 2A00:23C7:3119:AD01:BD09:51F9:D6BC:1FFE ( talk) 17:04, 5 November 2022 (UTC)
is that a typo, a translation error, or someone trying to be cute? And "earth's house"? same question. 2603:800C:2101:17F0:6C49:C7A1:80AB:CC97 ( talk) 07:25, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
Since the term "carrier rocket" redirects here should the article not use the term somewhere? Gjxj ( talk) 01:39, 17 June 2024 (UTC)