This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
The information presented here is inconsistent as to which letters are considered part of the alphabet... for example, "ä" in Swedish is a letter in the alphabet and has its own order, whereas e.g. French "é" is considered a variant of "e". So this list is a mixture of "letters in the alphabet of language X" and "letters used when writing language X [regardless of whether they are considered separate letters of not]".
Similarly with digraphs which are mentioned in the notes below the tables; for example, some languages consider "ch" a separate letter, with its own position in the alphabetical order, while others use the digraph in their writing to represent one sound but sort it as the two letters c-h. -- pne 16:12, 3 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Also, some languages include letters as part of the alphabet which are only used in foreign words - for example, Q or K or W or Y, depending on the language. How to treat those? -- pne 16:15, 3 Jun 2004 (UTC)
In the table header, shouldn't one show also the upper case dotless "I" and the lower case dotted "i"? True, they are identical to the plain latin letters. But the way the table is now, it looks as if those these letters do not exist in the Turkish alphabet. (Note that this situation is different from that of ess-zet, where the uppercase form is really non-existant.)
Jorge Stolfi
15:02, 5 May 2004 (UTC)
HELP... Portuguese uses also the letters "Ê", "Ô", "Ã", and "Õ" which are not on the table. Unfortunately adding the letters by hand is near impossible, and after spending a couple of hours trying to do it by script I concluded that it was just as hard. If you have the tools, could you please do that for me? Thanks...
Jorge Stolfi 17:19, 20 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Couldn't these all go on one page to aid comparison? It only about 26 letters extra for each language. Rmhermen 18:29, Nov 25, 2003 (UTC)
A table would be nice, e.g.
Alphabet \ Letter | A | B | C | ĉ | D | .. |
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
English alphabet | A | B | C | D | .. | |
Esperanto alphabet | A | B | C | ĉ | D | .. |
.. |
--User:Docu
To add alphabets, copy the English one, and add/remove letters.
We might want to include or exclude all diacritics and fine tune collation -- User:Docu
I've changed the table: it should be easier to edit/add new alphabets now. I've removed all diacritics, ligatures and other letters which do not exist in ASCII to after the Z.
I've also removed the Esperanto X-system: the letters like Cx are just a workaround for non-Unicode systems. If we include the X-system we ought to include the German 'e-system' as well, where ä becomes ae etc.. Jo r 15:32, 30 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Alphabetised the list (it was randomly sorted which irked me) and added Scots Gaelic to the list. Whoever originally wrote the tables can put the grave accents in their proper place - they left all fields for grave accents out as if acute accents were the only ones. Every segment has to be fixed in order to put them in now. Their fault.-- 172.175.248.241 07:03, 8 Mar 2004 (UTC)
What does everyone think of the table at Alphabets_derived_from_the_Latin/Temp? It uses the new table code and should be more easy to edit, also it scrolls better since I split the basic and extended alphabet. It was very easy to fix Scots Gaelic now. I would like to replace the main article table with the new one. Jo r 18:08, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)ß
Much better now. Do we need to repeat the word alphabet for every single link? I think we might as well hide them, which will make the row height smaller. Also, instead of copying and pasting, we might have to delete the current page, move it, delete the redirect, and then merge in the old history. Dori | Talk 20:44, Mar 12, 2004 (UTC)
Why are the Ø and Œ columns in front of all the A's in the "Extended Latin Alphabet" table? I would expect them with the O's. The ß is with the S's, after all. Does anyone mind if I change this?
—
Herbee 21:51, 2004 Mar 18 (UTC)
AFAIK the Latin alphabet used Æ and Œ too. Shouldn't there be a "Latin" row at the top of the "Extended latin" table?
It seems wrong to include just a random subset of languages in the table and leave the rest as links. On the other hand, if one were to include a couple more languages, the table would not fit in the screen anymore. Vietnamese alone. Also the table does not show the collating order. So I propose a different organization:
What do you think?
Jorge Stolfi 17:28, 20 Apr 2004 (UTC)
So, any opinions on this proposal?
Jorge Stolfi
19:20, 4 May 2004 (UTC)
I've never seen the use of an N- tilde, rather than the digraph Ng (and it's a different phoneme, it's an eng like in thing, not an enye like in canyon. I'm removing it for now, but feel free to prove me wrong, if you have a reference to back you up ;o) — OwenBlacker 20:40, Jul 1, 2004 (UTC)
I have added Ü to the list of French variants. It is extremely rare, being used primarily in names such as Esaü or Saül, but it does exist. Kelisi 18:31, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)
The 46-character Romany alphabet should be added to this list. -- Karada 15:37, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
I have changed from Letters based on A-I/J-Z to Letters based on A-J/K-Z since I and J were historically related.-- Hello World! 15:16, 8 October 2005 (UTC)
I have cut the tables into 3 for easier reading with small screen.-- ✉Hello World! 05:47, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
There are many characters missing, notably extended characters used in a number of African languages, a few less widely spoken European ones (Saami), and for som indigenous languages in the Americas and Australia. Many of the ones I am noticing that are missing happen also to be in the Unicode IPA range (the lower case versions). This also means that the languages of these regions are also missing. Altogether that would imply that a complete table (set of tables) would get very, very large. The tables that are here are good but - given the nature of the subject - far from complete. What would be the appropriate way to procede? Just add away? -- A12n 17:38, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
I hope this criticism serves to improve the article. FilipeS 13:00, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
The paragraph before the foreign characters starts: Some languages have extended the Latin alphabet with ligatures, modified letters, or digraphs. These symbols are listed below. And then goes on to list characters such as the Croatian Č, Ć, Ž, Š and Đ. The first sentence then is simply wrong since theese letters (and suspect many others in from others alphabet variations) are netiher ligatures, modified letters, or digraphs. They are as regular letters as any other representing a unique and independant voice.
Č, Ć, Ž, Š and Đ are all modified letters, i.e. letters obtained by combining a diacritic with one of the basic 26 letters in the first table. FilipeS 14:00, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
Northern Sami also uses diacritics. I think that it isn't able to include all alphabets derived from the Latin, because Latin alphabet is employed in a lot of writing system, but is this article respecting the neutrality? Might we include all alphabets? Pasqual (ca) · CUT 15:54, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
In the "Basic Latin Alphabet" section, click the footnote on the word Latin. Doesn't work. Don't know how to fix without converting to new ref tag format. — Keenan Pepper 21:27, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
It is said that Spanish has one of the alphabets with 26 letters, where it is completely false, as Ñ is considered a letter, placed after N in the alphabet, and NOT considered a variant. This makes 27 letters. — Jago84 13:45, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
I'm agree with you, but Actually, the digraphs CH and LL are letters in Real Academia Española. Michael Peter Fustumum 23:21, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
I deleted an edit by a user who had added ï, é, è, ö, ü, ë, ä to the Dutch alphabet. Someone else reverted my edit, giving the examples Oekraïne, oké, blèren, coördinatie, vacuüm, poëzie, Aäron. O.K., but some of those are clearly loanwords. Are these characters used for writing vernacular Dutch? If not, I don't think they should be listed in the alphabet. FilipeS 20:12, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
In that case, I might include ä, ë, ï, ö, ü in the table, and leave out the others. And/or add a comment to the note about Dutch, explaining that the other characters are only used in loanwords and a few interjections. FilipeS 11:20, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
Trema-letters aren't considered part of the 'normal dutch alphabet'. and I do not know of a [dutch] alphabet which includes it, lexiographic they are were their 'normal parts' are, you can also see http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nederlands_alfabet (maybe translate it with some site). and the ij is also a letter I never ever have seen in a alphabet except maybe on primary school. and Salaskan is right about the 'french letters' (e.g. è). So the Dutch alphabet only has the 26 'normal' latin alphebet letters. H-J Wagenaar —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.64.58.115 ( talk) 17:13, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
This article should be renamed. "Alphabets derived from the Latin" is dreadful English. Any suggestions? FilipeS 15:23, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
The issue is not with the name of the alphabet, but with the use of the article "the", which doesn't sound right to me. FilipeS 20:54, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
W is not a letter in Swedish, Swedish language are only use for foreign words.-- Michael Peter Fustumum 08:02, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
OKay, I am slightly confused. The article is titled Alphabets derived from latin. However, in the basic latin alphabet table it has arabic row, with some arabic letters. But, this is quite misleading since it goes against the articles title that is: Alphabets DERIVED from latin. It is quite the opposite actually, latin is derived from old persian. The script used in Farsi closely resembled Arabic with additional letters (just like swedish and english). I dont think arabic should exist (in the same way farsi doesnt exist). What does everyone else think? -- Waqas1987 ( talk) 12:41, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
For a specific language, should we include only letters used for words in that language, or should we include also letters only used for names ? It seems that there is a mixed standard in the table. For Swedish, Q and W as well as Ü and È are used only for names. Some native Swedish people have names with these letters. For foreign names in newspapers it seems to based on if there is a keyboard key or combination for it. Some discussions here hint that only official letters, not letters with diacritics should be included. One reason I read this article is that I previously worked with technical devices with a text display, supporting several languages. It would then be good to know which letters are needed to write a language. Please write a principle for this in the article. -- BIL ( talk) 13:21, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
To stop the edit war between me and User:Chinese has a V about the usage of C in Swedish and Danish, I will discuss this. It is true that Danish uses "kk" for words like Tjekkien. But Danish uses C for other words, as can be seen in large articles in Danish Wikipedia like da:Danmark. Examples: placeret, procent, centralmagt, Renæssancen, eksemplificeret, officiell, procedure, kompliceret and more. Swedish uses "ck" instead of "kk" which is enough reason to include it. Example words picked from a Swedish article sv:Danmark include: cirka, december, dock, dricksvatten, ingick, lyckas, och, också, officiell, precis, procent, sträcker. -- BIL ( talk) 11:24, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
I don't see why the letter Q isn't listed in the basic alphabet table for German. The headline comment says, "The Afrikaans, Catalan [6], Danish [9], Dutch [10], English [36], Filipino [11], Finnish [11], French [12], German [13], Interlingua, Kurdish, Malay, Norwegian [9], Slovak [24], Spanish [25], Swedish, Võro and Zulu alphabets officially contain all 26 letters at least. But not all are used in the vernacular, aside from foreign names and rare unassimilated loanwords."; however, several native or sufficiently assimilated words ("Qualle", "Quelle", "quer", "Qual", ...) have been using that letter since, according to Wiktionary, the Old High German stage at least. I propose the addition of that letter to the table. Similar argumentation is possible for the letter X ("Axt", axe), though I think it is considerably more rare in native words. -- Blackhole89 ( talk) 16:18, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
The information presented here is inconsistent as to which letters are considered part of the alphabet... for example, "ä" in Swedish is a letter in the alphabet and has its own order, whereas e.g. French "é" is considered a variant of "e". So this list is a mixture of "letters in the alphabet of language X" and "letters used when writing language X [regardless of whether they are considered separate letters of not]".
Similarly with digraphs which are mentioned in the notes below the tables; for example, some languages consider "ch" a separate letter, with its own position in the alphabetical order, while others use the digraph in their writing to represent one sound but sort it as the two letters c-h. -- pne 16:12, 3 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Also, some languages include letters as part of the alphabet which are only used in foreign words - for example, Q or K or W or Y, depending on the language. How to treat those? -- pne 16:15, 3 Jun 2004 (UTC)
In the table header, shouldn't one show also the upper case dotless "I" and the lower case dotted "i"? True, they are identical to the plain latin letters. But the way the table is now, it looks as if those these letters do not exist in the Turkish alphabet. (Note that this situation is different from that of ess-zet, where the uppercase form is really non-existant.)
Jorge Stolfi
15:02, 5 May 2004 (UTC)
HELP... Portuguese uses also the letters "Ê", "Ô", "Ã", and "Õ" which are not on the table. Unfortunately adding the letters by hand is near impossible, and after spending a couple of hours trying to do it by script I concluded that it was just as hard. If you have the tools, could you please do that for me? Thanks...
Jorge Stolfi 17:19, 20 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Couldn't these all go on one page to aid comparison? It only about 26 letters extra for each language. Rmhermen 18:29, Nov 25, 2003 (UTC)
A table would be nice, e.g.
Alphabet \ Letter | A | B | C | ĉ | D | .. |
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
English alphabet | A | B | C | D | .. | |
Esperanto alphabet | A | B | C | ĉ | D | .. |
.. |
--User:Docu
To add alphabets, copy the English one, and add/remove letters.
We might want to include or exclude all diacritics and fine tune collation -- User:Docu
I've changed the table: it should be easier to edit/add new alphabets now. I've removed all diacritics, ligatures and other letters which do not exist in ASCII to after the Z.
I've also removed the Esperanto X-system: the letters like Cx are just a workaround for non-Unicode systems. If we include the X-system we ought to include the German 'e-system' as well, where ä becomes ae etc.. Jo r 15:32, 30 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Alphabetised the list (it was randomly sorted which irked me) and added Scots Gaelic to the list. Whoever originally wrote the tables can put the grave accents in their proper place - they left all fields for grave accents out as if acute accents were the only ones. Every segment has to be fixed in order to put them in now. Their fault.-- 172.175.248.241 07:03, 8 Mar 2004 (UTC)
What does everyone think of the table at Alphabets_derived_from_the_Latin/Temp? It uses the new table code and should be more easy to edit, also it scrolls better since I split the basic and extended alphabet. It was very easy to fix Scots Gaelic now. I would like to replace the main article table with the new one. Jo r 18:08, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)ß
Much better now. Do we need to repeat the word alphabet for every single link? I think we might as well hide them, which will make the row height smaller. Also, instead of copying and pasting, we might have to delete the current page, move it, delete the redirect, and then merge in the old history. Dori | Talk 20:44, Mar 12, 2004 (UTC)
Why are the Ø and Œ columns in front of all the A's in the "Extended Latin Alphabet" table? I would expect them with the O's. The ß is with the S's, after all. Does anyone mind if I change this?
—
Herbee 21:51, 2004 Mar 18 (UTC)
AFAIK the Latin alphabet used Æ and Œ too. Shouldn't there be a "Latin" row at the top of the "Extended latin" table?
It seems wrong to include just a random subset of languages in the table and leave the rest as links. On the other hand, if one were to include a couple more languages, the table would not fit in the screen anymore. Vietnamese alone. Also the table does not show the collating order. So I propose a different organization:
What do you think?
Jorge Stolfi 17:28, 20 Apr 2004 (UTC)
So, any opinions on this proposal?
Jorge Stolfi
19:20, 4 May 2004 (UTC)
I've never seen the use of an N- tilde, rather than the digraph Ng (and it's a different phoneme, it's an eng like in thing, not an enye like in canyon. I'm removing it for now, but feel free to prove me wrong, if you have a reference to back you up ;o) — OwenBlacker 20:40, Jul 1, 2004 (UTC)
I have added Ü to the list of French variants. It is extremely rare, being used primarily in names such as Esaü or Saül, but it does exist. Kelisi 18:31, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)
The 46-character Romany alphabet should be added to this list. -- Karada 15:37, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
I have changed from Letters based on A-I/J-Z to Letters based on A-J/K-Z since I and J were historically related.-- Hello World! 15:16, 8 October 2005 (UTC)
I have cut the tables into 3 for easier reading with small screen.-- ✉Hello World! 05:47, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
There are many characters missing, notably extended characters used in a number of African languages, a few less widely spoken European ones (Saami), and for som indigenous languages in the Americas and Australia. Many of the ones I am noticing that are missing happen also to be in the Unicode IPA range (the lower case versions). This also means that the languages of these regions are also missing. Altogether that would imply that a complete table (set of tables) would get very, very large. The tables that are here are good but - given the nature of the subject - far from complete. What would be the appropriate way to procede? Just add away? -- A12n 17:38, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
I hope this criticism serves to improve the article. FilipeS 13:00, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
The paragraph before the foreign characters starts: Some languages have extended the Latin alphabet with ligatures, modified letters, or digraphs. These symbols are listed below. And then goes on to list characters such as the Croatian Č, Ć, Ž, Š and Đ. The first sentence then is simply wrong since theese letters (and suspect many others in from others alphabet variations) are netiher ligatures, modified letters, or digraphs. They are as regular letters as any other representing a unique and independant voice.
Č, Ć, Ž, Š and Đ are all modified letters, i.e. letters obtained by combining a diacritic with one of the basic 26 letters in the first table. FilipeS 14:00, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
Northern Sami also uses diacritics. I think that it isn't able to include all alphabets derived from the Latin, because Latin alphabet is employed in a lot of writing system, but is this article respecting the neutrality? Might we include all alphabets? Pasqual (ca) · CUT 15:54, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
In the "Basic Latin Alphabet" section, click the footnote on the word Latin. Doesn't work. Don't know how to fix without converting to new ref tag format. — Keenan Pepper 21:27, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
It is said that Spanish has one of the alphabets with 26 letters, where it is completely false, as Ñ is considered a letter, placed after N in the alphabet, and NOT considered a variant. This makes 27 letters. — Jago84 13:45, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
I'm agree with you, but Actually, the digraphs CH and LL are letters in Real Academia Española. Michael Peter Fustumum 23:21, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
I deleted an edit by a user who had added ï, é, è, ö, ü, ë, ä to the Dutch alphabet. Someone else reverted my edit, giving the examples Oekraïne, oké, blèren, coördinatie, vacuüm, poëzie, Aäron. O.K., but some of those are clearly loanwords. Are these characters used for writing vernacular Dutch? If not, I don't think they should be listed in the alphabet. FilipeS 20:12, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
In that case, I might include ä, ë, ï, ö, ü in the table, and leave out the others. And/or add a comment to the note about Dutch, explaining that the other characters are only used in loanwords and a few interjections. FilipeS 11:20, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
Trema-letters aren't considered part of the 'normal dutch alphabet'. and I do not know of a [dutch] alphabet which includes it, lexiographic they are were their 'normal parts' are, you can also see http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nederlands_alfabet (maybe translate it with some site). and the ij is also a letter I never ever have seen in a alphabet except maybe on primary school. and Salaskan is right about the 'french letters' (e.g. è). So the Dutch alphabet only has the 26 'normal' latin alphebet letters. H-J Wagenaar —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.64.58.115 ( talk) 17:13, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
This article should be renamed. "Alphabets derived from the Latin" is dreadful English. Any suggestions? FilipeS 15:23, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
The issue is not with the name of the alphabet, but with the use of the article "the", which doesn't sound right to me. FilipeS 20:54, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
W is not a letter in Swedish, Swedish language are only use for foreign words.-- Michael Peter Fustumum 08:02, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
OKay, I am slightly confused. The article is titled Alphabets derived from latin. However, in the basic latin alphabet table it has arabic row, with some arabic letters. But, this is quite misleading since it goes against the articles title that is: Alphabets DERIVED from latin. It is quite the opposite actually, latin is derived from old persian. The script used in Farsi closely resembled Arabic with additional letters (just like swedish and english). I dont think arabic should exist (in the same way farsi doesnt exist). What does everyone else think? -- Waqas1987 ( talk) 12:41, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
For a specific language, should we include only letters used for words in that language, or should we include also letters only used for names ? It seems that there is a mixed standard in the table. For Swedish, Q and W as well as Ü and È are used only for names. Some native Swedish people have names with these letters. For foreign names in newspapers it seems to based on if there is a keyboard key or combination for it. Some discussions here hint that only official letters, not letters with diacritics should be included. One reason I read this article is that I previously worked with technical devices with a text display, supporting several languages. It would then be good to know which letters are needed to write a language. Please write a principle for this in the article. -- BIL ( talk) 13:21, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
To stop the edit war between me and User:Chinese has a V about the usage of C in Swedish and Danish, I will discuss this. It is true that Danish uses "kk" for words like Tjekkien. But Danish uses C for other words, as can be seen in large articles in Danish Wikipedia like da:Danmark. Examples: placeret, procent, centralmagt, Renæssancen, eksemplificeret, officiell, procedure, kompliceret and more. Swedish uses "ck" instead of "kk" which is enough reason to include it. Example words picked from a Swedish article sv:Danmark include: cirka, december, dock, dricksvatten, ingick, lyckas, och, också, officiell, precis, procent, sträcker. -- BIL ( talk) 11:24, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
I don't see why the letter Q isn't listed in the basic alphabet table for German. The headline comment says, "The Afrikaans, Catalan [6], Danish [9], Dutch [10], English [36], Filipino [11], Finnish [11], French [12], German [13], Interlingua, Kurdish, Malay, Norwegian [9], Slovak [24], Spanish [25], Swedish, Võro and Zulu alphabets officially contain all 26 letters at least. But not all are used in the vernacular, aside from foreign names and rare unassimilated loanwords."; however, several native or sufficiently assimilated words ("Qualle", "Quelle", "quer", "Qual", ...) have been using that letter since, according to Wiktionary, the Old High German stage at least. I propose the addition of that letter to the table. Similar argumentation is possible for the letter X ("Axt", axe), though I think it is considerably more rare in native words. -- Blackhole89 ( talk) 16:18, 16 January 2008 (UTC)