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There has been some controversy among users about the article's high command structure chart for the Eastern army at the time the eastern Notitia was drawn up (ca. 395). It has been suggested that the duces limitis reported direct to the eastern emperor, and not, as shown in the chart, to the regional magistri militum. This is to clarify the basis for the chart.
Title I of the Eastern section of the Notitia Dignitatum, which is a summary of the rest, lists 5 magistri militum, 2 praesentales and 3 regional (per Illyricum, per Thracias and per Orientem); and 2 comites rei militaris (per Aegyptum and per Isauriam). All these posts are entered independently, and their holders thus presumably reported direct to the emperor.
In addition, 13 duces are listed, but these are divided under headings which, with one exception, correspond to the military districts of the 3 regional magistri and the comes per Aegyptum. The chart follows this list's dispositions. Against this view, it has been suggested that the ducal headings are simply geographical, showing the provinces/dioceses in which they were based. One dux, the one in command of Armenia, is listed under Pontica, a province, not a magisterial command. But this may simply be one of many minor errors that have crept into Notitia manuscripts as a result of centuries of copying by medieval monks.
Since civilian and military commands had been separated since Constantine I, the only alternative to the duces reporting to the magistri is that they reported direct to the emperor. But all the other available evidence shows that this was not the case. An imperial rescript (a letter with the force of a decree) dated AD 412, the same period as the Notitia ( Codex Theodosianus VII. 17.1), is a letter to the magister per Thracias concerning the Danube flotillas under the command of the duces of Scythia and Moesia I. This was presumably in response to a letter from the magister on this subject. The emperor specifies how many lusoriae (military patrol boats) each flotilla should contain and authorises funds to bring them up to strength. Further imperial decrees of 438 and 442 show clearly that the magistri were in firm control over their duces. (Jones (1964) p.609). EraNavigator ( talk) 16:26, 5 August 2010 (UTC)
As Jones states (p609): "The 5th-century laws show clearly that the regional magistri retained authority over the comites and duces in their respective zones". The position did not change between the drafting of the eastern Notitia (ca. 395) and the period of these laws (412-442), as "by the end of the reign of Theodosius I [395] the system of command in the Eastern parts had been stabilised in the form set out in the Notitia, which survived substantially unchanged until the time of Justinian [525-65]" (Jones (1964) p609)
Indeed the supremacy of the magistri over the duces was established much earlier than the Notitia, possibly under Constantine I and certainly by the 360's (Jones (1964) p100).
I modified the caption of the East Army reporting structure. The Notitia dignitatum Occidentis, ch. 5, places all the previously (ch. 1, the 'general' list) mentioned duces sub dispositone magistri peditum, whereas the Notitia Dignitatum Orientis, which lists the Eastern duces in ch. 1, does never place them sub dispositione of any magister, the latter having under them vexillationes, legiones and auxilia (ch. 5–10). As it stands, therefore, this chart illustrates not the situation at the time of the Notitia Dignitatum – as was wrongly claimed in the former caption and still is in the embedded caption, which I cannot modify – but a second stage in the development of the Eastern command structure, only perceivable in 5th-century laws of the Theodosian Code, as Jones, in the pages referred to in the footnote, and no doubt the other authors, make very well clear. The possible difference between East and West around 400, were it only occasioned by the different date of the two halves of the Notitia, cannot be overlooked. It is not the first time that, with the very same arguments, I propose these changes. Each and every time they have been brutally removed by user EraNavigator, who has not spared me his impolite comments. For this, I publicly demand satisfaction. Besides, it is remarkable that the same user is now, as it seems, trying to mend his mistakes, yet with the data and references he had not really read before and which I pointed out to him. He still believes, however, that "the position did not change between the drafting of the eastern Notitia (ca. 395) and the period of these laws (412-442)" (how on earth can he state that?) and is still misrepresenting Jones's views in order to support his queer claims. Fredmont ( talk) 19:46, 21 November 2010 (UTC)
There is no citation allongside this dramatic statement. can anyone tell where this information is taken from? 79.180.118.223 ( talk)
The article claims that Vegetius had no military experience whatsoever - yet Publius Flavius Vegetius Renatus states that practically nothing is known about Vegetius' life other than what he tells us in his writings. I somehow have my doubts that he would write in a military treatise that he had no military experience (though strictly speaking, it's not necessary for a theoretical study). So is there any basis for this statement? -- 84.46.60.45 ( talk) 21:39, 17 June 2011 (UTC)
Somebody should really elaborate on the porphyric statue pictured at the beginning of this article. Look at the intense, bromantic hugging action! — Preceding unsigned comment added by IronSheep ([[User talk:IronSheep|talk]] • contribs) 02:45, 31 August 2011 (UTC)
It's a symbolical thing, you know... they aren't 'hugging' in a 'intense' way,it's a representation of the shared power and bonds of fealty they had. Simply look at this article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portrait_of_the_Four_Tetrarchs 80.183.56.101 ( talk) 20:03, 14 September 2011 (UTC)
What about Agathias' figure and Zosimus' immediately post-Tetrarchan figures? 96.231.17.131 ( talk) 18:36, 18 September 2012 (UTC)
As interesting as it is, I don't think that we need the picture of the shields from the Notitia Dignitatum to be displayed twice in the same article.-- 172.190.46.146 ( talk) 06:08, 8 October 2012 (UTC)
The site lists the size of the late Roman Army as over 400,000 when in actuality it was much lower. In fact, for both empires it couldn't have been much larger than 250,000 men. The Italian Field Army and Limitanei only numbered less than 40,000 at its height, and looking at the army listings for Gaul and Spain+Africa were the same that gives a max of about 90,000 men. The ERE had a slightly larger force, probably more in the vicinity of 120,000 men. Both Goldsworthy and Heather state this with sources to back it up. MMFA ( talk) 22:55, 26 March 2013 (UTC)
I don't understand why the "late Roman army" would only go to 395. I for one, would keep using the term for the western army until, say, the defeat of Odovacer, and for the eastern army at least until the reorgnizations which Treadgold attributes to Anastasius. Ananiujitha ( talk) 23:56, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
Am I the only one having trouble with this article? Its size makes it hard to follow, and hard to find individual sections. I think it would help to break out some of the sections into their own articles, or to use these sections to update/expand sister-articles, and then retain an extended summary in the main article. Ananiujitha ( talk) 15:33, 7 September 2013 (UTC)
What is the reason for this weasely redundancy in the lead? It also goes against WP:REFERS. 14:43, 9 August 2014 (UTC)
'Late Roman army' is not the only term used, 'later Roman army' and 'army of the Dominate' have also been used. Also the article is not about a thing in the way that an elephant is a thing, it is about an artificial construct recognised by scholarship, the thing involved is 'the Roman army'. Unlike an elephant, which starts at a trunk and ends with a tail, the late Roman army has no universally accepted beginning and end - it could be interpreted at its widest as from the end of the Severan dynasty to the reign of Heraclius, or as narrowly as from the accession of Constantine the Great to 476 when Romulus Augustulus was deposed by Odovacar. To speak of it as if it were cut-and-dried and neatly tied up in ribbons is not encyclopaedic, encyclopaedias should include equivocal language where certainty is missing. Urselius ( talk) 20:35, 9 August 2014 (UTC)
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This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Late Roman army article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
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|
![]() | This article is rated A-class on Wikipedia's
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|
There has been some controversy among users about the article's high command structure chart for the Eastern army at the time the eastern Notitia was drawn up (ca. 395). It has been suggested that the duces limitis reported direct to the eastern emperor, and not, as shown in the chart, to the regional magistri militum. This is to clarify the basis for the chart.
Title I of the Eastern section of the Notitia Dignitatum, which is a summary of the rest, lists 5 magistri militum, 2 praesentales and 3 regional (per Illyricum, per Thracias and per Orientem); and 2 comites rei militaris (per Aegyptum and per Isauriam). All these posts are entered independently, and their holders thus presumably reported direct to the emperor.
In addition, 13 duces are listed, but these are divided under headings which, with one exception, correspond to the military districts of the 3 regional magistri and the comes per Aegyptum. The chart follows this list's dispositions. Against this view, it has been suggested that the ducal headings are simply geographical, showing the provinces/dioceses in which they were based. One dux, the one in command of Armenia, is listed under Pontica, a province, not a magisterial command. But this may simply be one of many minor errors that have crept into Notitia manuscripts as a result of centuries of copying by medieval monks.
Since civilian and military commands had been separated since Constantine I, the only alternative to the duces reporting to the magistri is that they reported direct to the emperor. But all the other available evidence shows that this was not the case. An imperial rescript (a letter with the force of a decree) dated AD 412, the same period as the Notitia ( Codex Theodosianus VII. 17.1), is a letter to the magister per Thracias concerning the Danube flotillas under the command of the duces of Scythia and Moesia I. This was presumably in response to a letter from the magister on this subject. The emperor specifies how many lusoriae (military patrol boats) each flotilla should contain and authorises funds to bring them up to strength. Further imperial decrees of 438 and 442 show clearly that the magistri were in firm control over their duces. (Jones (1964) p.609). EraNavigator ( talk) 16:26, 5 August 2010 (UTC)
As Jones states (p609): "The 5th-century laws show clearly that the regional magistri retained authority over the comites and duces in their respective zones". The position did not change between the drafting of the eastern Notitia (ca. 395) and the period of these laws (412-442), as "by the end of the reign of Theodosius I [395] the system of command in the Eastern parts had been stabilised in the form set out in the Notitia, which survived substantially unchanged until the time of Justinian [525-65]" (Jones (1964) p609)
Indeed the supremacy of the magistri over the duces was established much earlier than the Notitia, possibly under Constantine I and certainly by the 360's (Jones (1964) p100).
I modified the caption of the East Army reporting structure. The Notitia dignitatum Occidentis, ch. 5, places all the previously (ch. 1, the 'general' list) mentioned duces sub dispositone magistri peditum, whereas the Notitia Dignitatum Orientis, which lists the Eastern duces in ch. 1, does never place them sub dispositione of any magister, the latter having under them vexillationes, legiones and auxilia (ch. 5–10). As it stands, therefore, this chart illustrates not the situation at the time of the Notitia Dignitatum – as was wrongly claimed in the former caption and still is in the embedded caption, which I cannot modify – but a second stage in the development of the Eastern command structure, only perceivable in 5th-century laws of the Theodosian Code, as Jones, in the pages referred to in the footnote, and no doubt the other authors, make very well clear. The possible difference between East and West around 400, were it only occasioned by the different date of the two halves of the Notitia, cannot be overlooked. It is not the first time that, with the very same arguments, I propose these changes. Each and every time they have been brutally removed by user EraNavigator, who has not spared me his impolite comments. For this, I publicly demand satisfaction. Besides, it is remarkable that the same user is now, as it seems, trying to mend his mistakes, yet with the data and references he had not really read before and which I pointed out to him. He still believes, however, that "the position did not change between the drafting of the eastern Notitia (ca. 395) and the period of these laws (412-442)" (how on earth can he state that?) and is still misrepresenting Jones's views in order to support his queer claims. Fredmont ( talk) 19:46, 21 November 2010 (UTC)
There is no citation allongside this dramatic statement. can anyone tell where this information is taken from? 79.180.118.223 ( talk)
The article claims that Vegetius had no military experience whatsoever - yet Publius Flavius Vegetius Renatus states that practically nothing is known about Vegetius' life other than what he tells us in his writings. I somehow have my doubts that he would write in a military treatise that he had no military experience (though strictly speaking, it's not necessary for a theoretical study). So is there any basis for this statement? -- 84.46.60.45 ( talk) 21:39, 17 June 2011 (UTC)
Somebody should really elaborate on the porphyric statue pictured at the beginning of this article. Look at the intense, bromantic hugging action! — Preceding unsigned comment added by IronSheep ([[User talk:IronSheep|talk]] • contribs) 02:45, 31 August 2011 (UTC)
It's a symbolical thing, you know... they aren't 'hugging' in a 'intense' way,it's a representation of the shared power and bonds of fealty they had. Simply look at this article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portrait_of_the_Four_Tetrarchs 80.183.56.101 ( talk) 20:03, 14 September 2011 (UTC)
What about Agathias' figure and Zosimus' immediately post-Tetrarchan figures? 96.231.17.131 ( talk) 18:36, 18 September 2012 (UTC)
As interesting as it is, I don't think that we need the picture of the shields from the Notitia Dignitatum to be displayed twice in the same article.-- 172.190.46.146 ( talk) 06:08, 8 October 2012 (UTC)
The site lists the size of the late Roman Army as over 400,000 when in actuality it was much lower. In fact, for both empires it couldn't have been much larger than 250,000 men. The Italian Field Army and Limitanei only numbered less than 40,000 at its height, and looking at the army listings for Gaul and Spain+Africa were the same that gives a max of about 90,000 men. The ERE had a slightly larger force, probably more in the vicinity of 120,000 men. Both Goldsworthy and Heather state this with sources to back it up. MMFA ( talk) 22:55, 26 March 2013 (UTC)
I don't understand why the "late Roman army" would only go to 395. I for one, would keep using the term for the western army until, say, the defeat of Odovacer, and for the eastern army at least until the reorgnizations which Treadgold attributes to Anastasius. Ananiujitha ( talk) 23:56, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
Am I the only one having trouble with this article? Its size makes it hard to follow, and hard to find individual sections. I think it would help to break out some of the sections into their own articles, or to use these sections to update/expand sister-articles, and then retain an extended summary in the main article. Ananiujitha ( talk) 15:33, 7 September 2013 (UTC)
What is the reason for this weasely redundancy in the lead? It also goes against WP:REFERS. 14:43, 9 August 2014 (UTC)
'Late Roman army' is not the only term used, 'later Roman army' and 'army of the Dominate' have also been used. Also the article is not about a thing in the way that an elephant is a thing, it is about an artificial construct recognised by scholarship, the thing involved is 'the Roman army'. Unlike an elephant, which starts at a trunk and ends with a tail, the late Roman army has no universally accepted beginning and end - it could be interpreted at its widest as from the end of the Severan dynasty to the reign of Heraclius, or as narrowly as from the accession of Constantine the Great to 476 when Romulus Augustulus was deposed by Odovacar. To speak of it as if it were cut-and-dried and neatly tied up in ribbons is not encyclopaedic, encyclopaedias should include equivocal language where certainty is missing. Urselius ( talk) 20:35, 9 August 2014 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Late Roman army. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 21:16, 17 December 2017 (UTC)