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Please consider the following:
"As with many national heroes, recent historians have found reason to criticize her. Some charge that she she had Turkish and Jewish women killed for their jewelery and had the cannons defending Naphplion melted down for her own profit"
Need to back up comments with sources. Basic History lesson.
Bouboulinas death when she was shot was istant . she was shot in the head and see had no time to say anything as last words. the ,, help me stand i want to see the sea before i die was said by the actor at the movie but in real history is not true. i visited the museum at Spetses twice and spoke to the people their , also study the history about her death . the people again at the museum few days ago confirmed me that her death was istant and she said nothing at all as she died. John Athens Greece 12/9/07 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.75.254.193 ( talk) 18:43, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
Some text in this article appears to have been copied with few changes from another website. For example, we say:
The Bouboulina Museum history page says:
Since the material appears so closely based on the museum text, it would be better to re-write it in our own words, or attribute it to the source (such as, "according to the Bouboulina Museum...), or simply quote their text where necessary. We aren't concerned with plagiarism in the academic sense, but it's still a good idea to follow academic standards to the extent that it's practical. A couple of good webages on the topic are here: [2] [3] Overall the article looks good. However I suggest we try to add more inline citations, and more sources besides the museum because it is likely to provide only a positive viewpoint on the subject. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 17:40, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
Whatever I do User:Future Perfect at Sunrise will revert it again and will block me. I have never seen this behaviour again, reverting to older poor version while the article is not POV, or copied, or vandalized. That he haven't made a comment after 4 days here makes me sure that he doesn't care for the improvement of the article... - Sthenel ( talk) 09:26, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
Arvanites belong to the Greek nation. We will not say that "Someone is a Sarakatsani/Aromanian/Tsakonian hero" but "Someone is a Greek hero...He is of Sarakatsan/Aromanian/Tsakonian origin". - Sthenel ( talk) 18:20, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
Agreed to Athenean. This is what I want to say. By the way Albanian Greeks or Greek-Albanians is a term that we use today to refer to the Arvanites. During the War of Independence the terms Arvanites, Albanians or Turk-Albanians referred to the enemies of the Greeks, the other side which consisted mostly of Turks and Albanians. Of course Bouboulina was not one of them and nobody used this term to describe himself even if he was Arvanite. As for the "Ottoman" thing, this is ridiculous. This term was applied only to the conquerors Turks. Ottoman Greek would be much better but this is not the case. As for her ethnicity, people from Hydra and Spetses were mixed, there were not only Arvanites but Greek-speaking as well and there is not a common thought about if she was Arvanite. - Sthenel ( talk) 19:00, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
There is an obvious pov pushing mechanism of Greek contributors, to add the word "Greek" before the term "Arvanite community". This is
It is like adding in every page where Souliotes are, that they were Cham Albanians. If this POV-pushing is not cleared, I will undo it. Balkanian`s word ( talk) 08:49, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
Where does it say that Souliotes are Cham Albanians? Greek Arvanites is important for the reader to understand the meaning, because Arvanites can be confused with TurkAlbanians (Ali Pasha etc.) http://el.wikisource.org/wiki/%CE%A4%CE%B7%CF%82_%CE%94%CE%AD%CF%83%CF%80%CF%89%CF%82 CrazyMartini ( talk) 20:44, 4 June 2010 (UTC)
As I see the previous version was also supported by Sthenel (not-blocked), suppose the revert would be justified if Sulmues provides some additional argument. Alexikoua ( talk) 19:51, 8 June 2010 (UTC)
Greek Arvanites is also used quite often and it's definitely not POV. Note that in her period the term Arvanites was used by the Greek side to denote the Turk-Albanians, but in its modern sense it clearly defines the Arvanites as part of the Greek nation. Both uses look equally correct to me. - Sthenel ( talk) 12:04, 9 June 2010 (UTC)
The article's lead doesn't leave much space for misunderstanding, Greek Arvanites, Christian Arvanites or plain Arvanites, this is so unimportant for having an argument with POV tags waiving. The sentence that follows is much more problematic in my view, why do we need a poorely written snapshot conclusion like this here ? I'll start with the secondary issues. First of all it is technically unsourced, the citation given makes no such comment whatsoever [mixed refs]. Second, the current wording pertains to half-truths, Albanian was the predominant native language of the inhabitants, but in flurishing Arvanite communities like Spetses, diglossia came much earlier. Wherever there's wealth there are increasing rates of literacy and cultural developement, which in our case were implemented through the spreading use of the Greek language outside of the Orthodox liturgy. A rich naval family in Spetses cannot be compared with some isolated shepherds in Southern Euboia of the same origin for example. The following "Orthodox Church" is a rather empty term to what it is supposed to link in the sentence, it mostly gives the sense of a vertical relationship between the religious leadership and the poimnion, if anything "(Greek) Orthodox faith" would be the appropriate wording in this attempt to establish a simplified connection with the Greek identity, since it refers both to a cultural identity and the religious/cultural guidance of the church.
But even if these were fixed, the integration of Arvanites into the Greek people is much more complicated to be summarized in a sentence and this article has no space for more. Religion and the social structures of the Ottoman Empire in relation to religious groups are only the basis. What weight would these have if they weren't co-related with the Greek national movement and the historical reality of the Greek war of independence for instance ? And there are more factors to be considered, like the early lack of a unified Albanian national movement and the later-on weak influence of it among the Arvanites, the "ethnic nation" ideology in the post-Ottoman Balkans and so on. I would have removed it right away, but seeing the atmosphere in this page i wanted to explain myself first. Do i have your permission to remove it ?-- GroGaBa ( talk) 08:12, 10 June 2010 (UTC)
Seems we have a new pov concert to change the lead. Especially in this edit: [ [13]] the editor says that he didn't know what's the dispute. Obviously we have an repeated attempt to ignore Wikipedia:Mosbio#Opening_paragraph. Alexikoua ( talk) 09:31, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
Place of birth mention in "Early life" paragraph does not match the place of birth mentioned bellow the main picture. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Papadi ( talk • contribs) 09:10, 30 September 2010 (UTC)
An image used in this article,
File:Photoinside 10.jpg, has been nominated for deletion at
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Don't panic; a discussion will now take place over on Commons about whether to remove the file. This gives you an opportunity to contest the deletion, although please review Commons guidelines before doing so.
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It's a little depressing seeing POV pushers hiding her Arvanite origin. Aigest ( talk) 13:11, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
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I wonder why there is a weird tendency to add the "Bububulina" form while there is already a latinized "Bouboulina" name in infobox. It's definitely a unnecessary addition. Both Bubulina & Bouboulina are spelled the same in English. The addition is completely useless for an English speaker in wikipedia. Alexikoua ( talk) 22:45, 12 July 2023 (UTC)
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Catlemur ( talk) 15:24, 29 July 2023 (UTC)
If you won 'good article' labels using thesis dissertations, that's good for you, but guidelines warn that this material should be used with caution ("theses written as part of the requirements for a doctorate (...) can be used but care should be exercised" etc). Here the dissertation belong to comparative litterature dept, not history, and the central subject is "Feminist Alternatives to Documentary Filmmaking Practices". It should better be used to source 'documentary filmmaking practice' rather than an historical article. Xiradaki may have won this or that and be cited here or there, but about Bouboulina, does she cite sources, does she rely on contemporary primary sources and archivial studies? It is one thing to gain recognizance or success for pioneer work or appealing subjects, it is another thing to write sound scientific history, enough to taken as reference for a period of precise thema.
So though Xiradaki may have some qualities and be an interesting author, she shouldn't be blindly taken at face value.-- 92.88.170.60 ( talk) 22:47, 30 July 2023 (UTC)
You are still misrepresenting things, as if I were radically changing the article while you were desperately asking for sources. Instead, you are reverting changes as innocuous as "According to X", and you don't allow any contextualization to KH thesis because you trust it as much as I find it lacking in its historical approach.
As always in these cases, it is quite impossible to have sources saying precisely that "this implausible unfounded claim is wrong", just as you won't find no source saying that "JFK was not the best ever foxtrot dancer in his hometown" even if an enthousiast biographer wrote that he was. This is when phrasing like "According to", or a mention that the claim is not sourced in the given reference, are useful to the reader.
I am not aware of any strong academic source about Bouboulina's career. Though there are tons of 19c century (perhaps too 'primary' for use on WP) sources about the actions of the spetsiot fleet ( Τα σπετσιώτικα, among others), using them (or using simple commons sense about the lack of descriptions of Bouboulina's supposed oustanding actions in detailed general descriptions of the war) would lean toward original research. But since i didn't fundamentally alter the text nor "replaced X and KH's texts" (as you falsely accuse me to do), there is no "stronger source" to wait for, and you can stop saying in again and again; if the text looks less unadequately affirmative and the reader is given proper indication of the real reliability of the present sources, this will already be an improvement.
By the way while you repeatedly ask me for sources about changes i didn't make, you did not answer my question about Xiradaki's sources, i.e. if she cites some, and which they are.-- 77.131.3.35 ( talk) 11:52, 5 August 2023 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Laskarina Bouboulina article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This
level-5 vital article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Please consider the following:
"As with many national heroes, recent historians have found reason to criticize her. Some charge that she she had Turkish and Jewish women killed for their jewelery and had the cannons defending Naphplion melted down for her own profit"
Need to back up comments with sources. Basic History lesson.
Bouboulinas death when she was shot was istant . she was shot in the head and see had no time to say anything as last words. the ,, help me stand i want to see the sea before i die was said by the actor at the movie but in real history is not true. i visited the museum at Spetses twice and spoke to the people their , also study the history about her death . the people again at the museum few days ago confirmed me that her death was istant and she said nothing at all as she died. John Athens Greece 12/9/07 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.75.254.193 ( talk) 18:43, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
Some text in this article appears to have been copied with few changes from another website. For example, we say:
The Bouboulina Museum history page says:
Since the material appears so closely based on the museum text, it would be better to re-write it in our own words, or attribute it to the source (such as, "according to the Bouboulina Museum...), or simply quote their text where necessary. We aren't concerned with plagiarism in the academic sense, but it's still a good idea to follow academic standards to the extent that it's practical. A couple of good webages on the topic are here: [2] [3] Overall the article looks good. However I suggest we try to add more inline citations, and more sources besides the museum because it is likely to provide only a positive viewpoint on the subject. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 17:40, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
Whatever I do User:Future Perfect at Sunrise will revert it again and will block me. I have never seen this behaviour again, reverting to older poor version while the article is not POV, or copied, or vandalized. That he haven't made a comment after 4 days here makes me sure that he doesn't care for the improvement of the article... - Sthenel ( talk) 09:26, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
Arvanites belong to the Greek nation. We will not say that "Someone is a Sarakatsani/Aromanian/Tsakonian hero" but "Someone is a Greek hero...He is of Sarakatsan/Aromanian/Tsakonian origin". - Sthenel ( talk) 18:20, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
Agreed to Athenean. This is what I want to say. By the way Albanian Greeks or Greek-Albanians is a term that we use today to refer to the Arvanites. During the War of Independence the terms Arvanites, Albanians or Turk-Albanians referred to the enemies of the Greeks, the other side which consisted mostly of Turks and Albanians. Of course Bouboulina was not one of them and nobody used this term to describe himself even if he was Arvanite. As for the "Ottoman" thing, this is ridiculous. This term was applied only to the conquerors Turks. Ottoman Greek would be much better but this is not the case. As for her ethnicity, people from Hydra and Spetses were mixed, there were not only Arvanites but Greek-speaking as well and there is not a common thought about if she was Arvanite. - Sthenel ( talk) 19:00, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
There is an obvious pov pushing mechanism of Greek contributors, to add the word "Greek" before the term "Arvanite community". This is
It is like adding in every page where Souliotes are, that they were Cham Albanians. If this POV-pushing is not cleared, I will undo it. Balkanian`s word ( talk) 08:49, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
Where does it say that Souliotes are Cham Albanians? Greek Arvanites is important for the reader to understand the meaning, because Arvanites can be confused with TurkAlbanians (Ali Pasha etc.) http://el.wikisource.org/wiki/%CE%A4%CE%B7%CF%82_%CE%94%CE%AD%CF%83%CF%80%CF%89%CF%82 CrazyMartini ( talk) 20:44, 4 June 2010 (UTC)
As I see the previous version was also supported by Sthenel (not-blocked), suppose the revert would be justified if Sulmues provides some additional argument. Alexikoua ( talk) 19:51, 8 June 2010 (UTC)
Greek Arvanites is also used quite often and it's definitely not POV. Note that in her period the term Arvanites was used by the Greek side to denote the Turk-Albanians, but in its modern sense it clearly defines the Arvanites as part of the Greek nation. Both uses look equally correct to me. - Sthenel ( talk) 12:04, 9 June 2010 (UTC)
The article's lead doesn't leave much space for misunderstanding, Greek Arvanites, Christian Arvanites or plain Arvanites, this is so unimportant for having an argument with POV tags waiving. The sentence that follows is much more problematic in my view, why do we need a poorely written snapshot conclusion like this here ? I'll start with the secondary issues. First of all it is technically unsourced, the citation given makes no such comment whatsoever [mixed refs]. Second, the current wording pertains to half-truths, Albanian was the predominant native language of the inhabitants, but in flurishing Arvanite communities like Spetses, diglossia came much earlier. Wherever there's wealth there are increasing rates of literacy and cultural developement, which in our case were implemented through the spreading use of the Greek language outside of the Orthodox liturgy. A rich naval family in Spetses cannot be compared with some isolated shepherds in Southern Euboia of the same origin for example. The following "Orthodox Church" is a rather empty term to what it is supposed to link in the sentence, it mostly gives the sense of a vertical relationship between the religious leadership and the poimnion, if anything "(Greek) Orthodox faith" would be the appropriate wording in this attempt to establish a simplified connection with the Greek identity, since it refers both to a cultural identity and the religious/cultural guidance of the church.
But even if these were fixed, the integration of Arvanites into the Greek people is much more complicated to be summarized in a sentence and this article has no space for more. Religion and the social structures of the Ottoman Empire in relation to religious groups are only the basis. What weight would these have if they weren't co-related with the Greek national movement and the historical reality of the Greek war of independence for instance ? And there are more factors to be considered, like the early lack of a unified Albanian national movement and the later-on weak influence of it among the Arvanites, the "ethnic nation" ideology in the post-Ottoman Balkans and so on. I would have removed it right away, but seeing the atmosphere in this page i wanted to explain myself first. Do i have your permission to remove it ?-- GroGaBa ( talk) 08:12, 10 June 2010 (UTC)
Seems we have a new pov concert to change the lead. Especially in this edit: [ [13]] the editor says that he didn't know what's the dispute. Obviously we have an repeated attempt to ignore Wikipedia:Mosbio#Opening_paragraph. Alexikoua ( talk) 09:31, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
Place of birth mention in "Early life" paragraph does not match the place of birth mentioned bellow the main picture. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Papadi ( talk • contribs) 09:10, 30 September 2010 (UTC)
An image used in this article,
File:Photoinside 10.jpg, has been nominated for deletion at
Wikimedia Commons in the following category: Media without a source as of 29 August 2011
Don't panic; a discussion will now take place over on Commons about whether to remove the file. This gives you an opportunity to contest the deletion, although please review Commons guidelines before doing so.
This notification is provided by a Bot -- CommonsNotificationBot ( talk) 13:27, 29 August 2011 (UTC) |
It's a little depressing seeing POV pushers hiding her Arvanite origin. Aigest ( talk) 13:11, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
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I wonder why there is a weird tendency to add the "Bububulina" form while there is already a latinized "Bouboulina" name in infobox. It's definitely a unnecessary addition. Both Bubulina & Bouboulina are spelled the same in English. The addition is completely useless for an English speaker in wikipedia. Alexikoua ( talk) 22:45, 12 July 2023 (UTC)
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I have just modified one external link on Laskarina Bouboulina. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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Catlemur ( talk) 15:24, 29 July 2023 (UTC)
If you won 'good article' labels using thesis dissertations, that's good for you, but guidelines warn that this material should be used with caution ("theses written as part of the requirements for a doctorate (...) can be used but care should be exercised" etc). Here the dissertation belong to comparative litterature dept, not history, and the central subject is "Feminist Alternatives to Documentary Filmmaking Practices". It should better be used to source 'documentary filmmaking practice' rather than an historical article. Xiradaki may have won this or that and be cited here or there, but about Bouboulina, does she cite sources, does she rely on contemporary primary sources and archivial studies? It is one thing to gain recognizance or success for pioneer work or appealing subjects, it is another thing to write sound scientific history, enough to taken as reference for a period of precise thema.
So though Xiradaki may have some qualities and be an interesting author, she shouldn't be blindly taken at face value.-- 92.88.170.60 ( talk) 22:47, 30 July 2023 (UTC)
You are still misrepresenting things, as if I were radically changing the article while you were desperately asking for sources. Instead, you are reverting changes as innocuous as "According to X", and you don't allow any contextualization to KH thesis because you trust it as much as I find it lacking in its historical approach.
As always in these cases, it is quite impossible to have sources saying precisely that "this implausible unfounded claim is wrong", just as you won't find no source saying that "JFK was not the best ever foxtrot dancer in his hometown" even if an enthousiast biographer wrote that he was. This is when phrasing like "According to", or a mention that the claim is not sourced in the given reference, are useful to the reader.
I am not aware of any strong academic source about Bouboulina's career. Though there are tons of 19c century (perhaps too 'primary' for use on WP) sources about the actions of the spetsiot fleet ( Τα σπετσιώτικα, among others), using them (or using simple commons sense about the lack of descriptions of Bouboulina's supposed oustanding actions in detailed general descriptions of the war) would lean toward original research. But since i didn't fundamentally alter the text nor "replaced X and KH's texts" (as you falsely accuse me to do), there is no "stronger source" to wait for, and you can stop saying in again and again; if the text looks less unadequately affirmative and the reader is given proper indication of the real reliability of the present sources, this will already be an improvement.
By the way while you repeatedly ask me for sources about changes i didn't make, you did not answer my question about Xiradaki's sources, i.e. if she cites some, and which they are.-- 77.131.3.35 ( talk) 11:52, 5 August 2023 (UTC)