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This article was nominated for deletion on 9 August 2007. The result of the discussion was keep.

I find it very and very strange that all the western press lifted up this flap on the international level just because of "some unknown" Larisa Arap. And let me explain why I find it more than strange: In russia I'm persued by former kgb in all the ways for about 7 years and the appropriated organizations from western countries perfectly know that. But instid of simple assistance or even staying apart from all of this, they all have shited on me in all the ways what placed me into the situation when I'm surrounded by the enemies from all the sides. Thus the simple and the correct questions would be: what is so special with this Larisa Arap? And the most correct answer could be: she is simply the agent of some western intelligence. That will explain the behavior of both parts. Another similar situation with some journalist(female) who recently got the political assylum in the USA. But the point is that ... you can not get the political assylum in the states before your case is considered in the USA! I underwent the same pressure as that journalist, but instead of political assylum I got hard pressure from the western countries. It shows that that journalist who got the political assylum is simply the agent of the CIA.

Just so everyone knows, this is where I started writing, and this is a response to the above text, not a continuation by the same author. My username is Gagnradr. I'm new to wikipedia, so bear with me please. There are strange things I see in this Larisa Arap. I myself am terrified of the concept of involuntary commitment. Many, many countries including western and Eastern have both horrifically abused people in mental asylums, and later admitted it. Although it has probably improved, this case should be an obvious flag of need for deep, open investigation. This woman wrote a book about how horrible a specific mental hospital was, and then was involuntarily committed there!!!!!!! You do not find that strange? I say that entire hospital should have two or three serious investigations go on in it to see what's really happening there. I do not think this is just western propaganda, or that she is "the agent of some western intelligence", but if she really is a secret agent, why is she put in a mental hospital? Is that what the normal thing to do to CIA agents? Instead of legally and openly prosecuting them upon discovery, they are put in mental asylums? That sounds like sheer madness!!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gagnradr ( talk • contribs) 16:57, 13 June 2008 (UTC) reply

I do not understand your excitement. Such things are happening every day in Russia, just like in the former Soviet Union. This is very simple. Sending someone to the hospital is very easy and cheap. Convicting an innocent person in a court costs a little bit more. Biophys ( talk) 18:14, 13 June 2008 (UTC) reply

That sounds quite believable. Now as to the 'agents' and the paranoid-sounding post above, that stuff seems ridiculous to the point of warranting treatment for the authors. Rubbish... Russia today is a multi-ethnic country with its fair share of street crime and of immigrants that most local eyewitnesses are unable to discern, much less identify. Whatever happened to the cheap'n'easy "mugging gone wrong, one fatal stabbing victim, perpetrator identified only as dark-haired man of medium build and unknown origin in a leather jacket" solution to anyone that really gets on a government's nerves that much??? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.167.100.243 ( talk) 02:43, 26 March 2009 (UTC) reply

2007-08-09 18:25:43 Dear Sirs! The article " Арап, Лариса Ивановна" www. WIKIPEDIA.com in russ ready to delete./ will be probably delete 13.08.07/Статья " Арап, Лариса Ивановна" www. WIKIPEDIA.com in russ выставлена к удалению English mirror site "Larisa Arap" available. DISCATION RUSSIAN GURUS-took part all the same names , as case delete art. "Отравление Александра Литвиненко" . Use all the same words .

Ну дык. Многим только повод нужен, чтобы снова поднять вой о «кровавом путинском режиме». Самостоятельной значимостью эта тётка не обладает. --the wrong man 21:35, 6 августа 2007 (UTC)

Удавить. Не проходит ВП:БИО. Создавать статьи по принципу «утром в газете — вечером в куплете википедии» считаю неправильным. Через год про эту психованную тётку никто и не вспомнит. --the wrong man 21:14, 6 августа 2007 (UTC)

Удалить. Кажется, готовы раздуть банальную госпитализацию поциентки с манией высочества до огромных размеров. Через месяц всё забудется. --/Pauk 08:13, 7 августа 2007 (UTC)

ALSO http://www.rufront.ru/materials/46B0E37CCB691.html Thank you Boris Paramonow:-) 84.9.150.234 16:21, 9 August 2007 (UTC) reply

The Russian version of this article has problems. You have no need to speak Russian in order to see, that the same users suggest the removal (удалить) or asphyxia (удавить), and then edit the article, justifying the removal. If you are interested to keep Wikipedia as international project, please, visit the Russian version and look, what is happening there. dima 04:51, 10 August 2007 (UTC) reply

While this article is up for deletion review, I would respectfully request that any further edits be placed here, where someone who is a native English editor can properly convert them and then place them into the article. I've spent a good deal of time working on cleaning this article up, because it was seriously compromised by the translation issue. Since the article is being reviewed for deletion, it would be helpful if future edits were in proper English so the article continues to improve. This is in no way an insult, or a request to stop editing, but simply a request for the duration of the deletion review, and to allow a translator to assist with the re-writing of the article, should it be kept. I will pledge to check this page and add comments, and properly format them per the manual of style as they are added here. Most sincerely, ^{Ariel♥ Gold} 23:53, 10 August 2007 (UTC) reply

I've worked and worked, but I honestly have no idea what this is saying:

The subs. of the Hear Doctor ( главного врача) of the Murmansk Regional Psychiatric Clinic (Мурманская областная психиатрическая больница) at Apatity. Evgeny Enin (Евгений Енин) rejected any attempts to communicate with Larisa by phone, or to request information about her.

Domitori could you try to write that out for me again? I'll try again to re-word it, if you can help try to explain what it says to me. Thanks! ^{Ariel♥ Gold} 23:59, 10 August 2007 (UTC) reply

Oops!!! Please, replace Hear Doctor to Head Docror, Principal Doctor, Chief Doctor,... or just Director. dima 01:59, 11 August 2007 (UTC) reply

Let it be something like this:

Evgeny Enin (Евгений Енин), the Substitute of the Top Doctor (Исполняющий Обязанности Главного Врача) of the Murmansk Regional Psychiatric Clinic (Мурманская областная психиатрическая больница) at Apatity had rejected attempts to communicate with Larisa by phone. He did not give any information about her health.

dima 01:59, 11 August 2007 (UTC) dima 02:02, 11 August 2007 (UTC) reply

Okie dokie, first question: Who or what is Apatity? Is that the name of the hospital? So basically, this head doctor guy, was asked by (whom? Her family?) to give information, and he refused to do so? ^{Ariel♥ Gold} 02:07, 11 August 2007 (UTC) reply

I shall answer one by one. Apatity is city at Kolsky penninsula, There is stub about Apatity. dima 02:59, 11 August 2007 (UTC) reply

As I understand, 02.08.2007 (august), the correspondent of "Novaya Gazeta" http://www.novayagazeta.ru/data/2007/58/16.html had called to Enin:

Разговор по телефону с и.о. главного врача Мурманской областной психиатрической больницы в Апатитах Евгением ЕНИНЫМ.

- Евгений Николаевич, я журналист 'Новой газеты' и хотел бы попросить у вас комментарий по поводу госпитализации Ларисы Арап.

- Я не могу комментировать. Закон запрещает мне даже сообщать о факте нахождения здесь больной. Это медицинская тайна. Посмотрите ст. 9 Закона о психиатрической помощи.

- Но это общеизвестный факт, что она здесь находится.

- Может быть, но я не имею права это подтверждать.

- Мы хотим представить в нашей газете разные точки зрения об этом случае, а не только мнения правозащитников. Разве вы не заинтересованы в том, чтобы информация была объективной?

- Я не могу давать сведения о больных. Вы сейчас спросите ее диагноз.

- Я не спрашиваю ее диагноз и назначенное лечение, я не прошу вас выдавать медицинскую тайну. Скажите только, сейчас, с вашей точки зрения, Арап представляет угрозу для себя или окружающих?

- Без комментариев. Это относится к медицинской тайне.

- А каков прогноз, когда ее выпустят?

- Я об этом тоже не могу говорить. Никаких вопросов о конкретных больных. Я могу с вами говорить только на общечеловеческие темы.

- Хорошо, вопрос на общечеловеческую тему: скажите, а как вы лично относитесь к фактам использования психиатрии в политических целях в СССР?

- Я могу судить только по сообщениям в прессе, но если такое в Советском Союзе действительно было, то я возмущен.

- А вы не думаете, что такое может повториться и сегодня?

- Может быть, где-нибудь теоретически такое и может повториться, но у нас этого нет, в нашей больнице нет.

- То есть случай с Ларисой Арап вы не относите к таким?

- Частные случаи не комментирую.

- А я могу поговорить с ней по телефону?

- Не можете. Неизвестно, захочет ли она с вами разговаривать, и вообще для этого нужно согласие ее представителей. Вот сегодня у нас будут здесь представители из Комитета здравоохранения, которые курируют больницу, из прокуратуры и с ними журналисты. Читайте, что они напишут.

Should I translate questions by the correspondent and replies by Enin? dima 03:08, 11 August 2007 (UTC) reply

Nah, I don't think so, perhaps pick out one sentence, one that specifically asks about her condition? Or one in which his reply is "I won't talk about it"? And okay so it is a city, let me try:

Evgeny Enin (Евгений Енин), the supervising physician for Murmansk Regional Psychiatric Clinic (Мурманская областная психиатрическая больница) in Apatity refused requests for information regarding Larisa's treatment, and refused to discuss the matter with Larisa directly.

How's that? ^{Ariel♥ Gold} 03:22, 11 August 2007 (UTC) reply

Bad.

In Russia, there is custom, that sometimes, the low-position worker performs functions of director. It is called "исполняющий обязанности".

In Russia, a director of a clynic is called "Главный Врач"

May be,

Evgeny Enin (Евгений Енин), the supervising physician ("Исполняющий обязанности Главного Врача") for Murmansk Regional Psychiatric Clinic (Мурманская областная психиатрическая больница) in Apatity refused requests for information regarding Larisa's treatment, and refused to discuss the matter with Larisa directly.

I see, I should translate the record of the telephone call. It will take some time. While, you can use the sentence above. dima 03:51, 11 August 2007 (UTC) reply

Translatiom

I'll do my best under each line in italics ^{Ariel♥ Gold}

Automatic translation below looks horrible. I post it as is, and then I try to improve it. dima 03:58, 11 August 2007 (UTC) I edit the translation. Not finished yet. dima 09:11, 11 August 2007 (UTC) My comments in italics under yours However, note that this is most likely not appropriate for the article, a transcribed conversation isn't something put into articles. But, we could possibly use quotes from it, or summarize the conversation, I'd like to wait to see the outcome of the RfA before putting this part in. ^{Ariel♥ Gold} reply

Conversation on the telephone of Corresoindent of Novaya Gazeta" to Yevgeny YENIN (i.o. of the head physician of the Murmansk regional psychiatric hospital at Apatity)

- Yevgeny Nikolayevich, I am journalist of the newspaper Novaya Gazeta", andI would like to ask for your commentary with respect to the hospitalization of Larissa Arap.

- I cannot comment on. The Law forbids to me even to report about the fact of the presence here of patient. This is medical secret. Look art. 9 of the Law On thepsychiatric aid.

The law is clear, I cannot comment on any patient in the facility

- but this is the well-known fact that she it is here.

- it can be so, but I do not have the right to confirm this.

- We want to present in our newspaper the different points of view about this case, not only the opinions of human right defenders. Aren't you interested, that in the information would be neutral?

- I cannot give data regarding patients, or their diagnoses.

- I do not ask its diagnosis and the treatment assigned, I do not ask you to reveal the medical secret. Say only, now ^[1], from your point of view, Is Arap dangerous for herself or surrounding?

- No comment. I cannot reveal patient information.

- What is forecast, when will she be released?

I cannot comment about this. I can answer no questions about patients. I can only talk in general-human topic.

- Well, the question on the general-human topic: say, what is your attitude on the facts of treatment of patients, and how do you personally relate to the issue of the use of psychiatry for political purposes in the CCCP?

- I can judge only by the communications in the press, but if such things in the Soviet Unionwas actually took place, /I am horrified/it is horrible/it is shame/

- Don't you think that such a thing can be repeated today?

- there can be, somewhere, theoretically such can be repeated, but we do not have this, in our hospital – no.

- i.e., the case with Larissa Arap you do qualify in such a way?

-I cannot comment on specific cases.

- Can I talk to her by telephone?

- you not can. It is unknown, it will want with you totalk, and generally for this is necessary the agreement of itsrepresentatives. Here today we have here representatives from thecommittee of public health, which treat hospital, from theprocuratorship and with them journalists. Read, that they will write

• No. Without a representative of the patient, I cannot speak to anyone regarding Larissa.

Okay, let me just explain one thing, every title of a person, or every city doesn't need the Russian translation following it. We must remember this is the English Wikipedia, and thus, those things simply serve to make the article "Messy" and distracting. It is hard for a reader to have to skip over something like (Мурманская областная психиатрическая больница) following a word. My suggestion is to have the initial mention of Larisa's name get a translation, and the initial mention of the hospital and city, but none after that. Certainly doesn't need to be done for every person mentioned in the article, or every position that they fulfill. That's the point of translation. :)

So, he's not the head-doctor guy, he's the supervising physician, that's fine. I'd suggest we do this throughout the entire article, remove all the Russian translations of items/places/people/names. Personally, I find it extremely hard to understand anything when every few words is a line of Russian, lol.

So, how about this:

Evgeny Enin, the supervising physician for Murmansk Regional Psychiatric Clinic in Apatity, refused requests for information regarding Larisa's treatment, and refused to discuss the matter with Larisa directly.

That is much easier for normal non-Russian speaking (or reading) users to read, and much less distracting. If you have no objections, go ahead and remove all the Russian, except for Larisa's initial name, the initial mention of the hospital, and her husband and daughter. Other than those items, the rest is not integral to the understanding of the article, and indeed, no translations into Russian would be needed, but it can be done simply as a consideration for readers who may understand it. When you're translating it, there's no reason for you to put the Russian term in parentheses () following the word. Since I'm helping you, we can go through the article sentence by sentence if you like, and make sure it is all correct. Or, you can remove the Russian yourself, and see how it reads after you do that, even you may find it easier to spot errors in my translation that way. Sound like a good idea? ^{Ariel♥ Gold} 04:00, 11 August 2007 (UTC) reply

ArielGold, Sorry, I removed a dot from the text without to discuss with you. (Then I remembered your suggestion and come here.) About messy Russian repetition, it was necessary at the debugging of the article. As I understand, you want Murmansk to be clickable only at its first appearance in the text.. May be you are right, but I would not do that. Some readers begin from the end or even from the middle. As for Russian terms in parenthesis, I suggest a compromise: we make them references, footnotes. How do you like this? dima 07:35, 11 August 2007 (UTC) reply

I see no big errors. I would remove a dot ecah time when it appears before a reference. dima 07:53, 11 August 2007 (UTC) reply

I'm not talking about the clickable wiki-links, but about the constant translation of the name/person into Russian following the name. That's distracting and not needed. Is there an article on this at the Russian Wikipedia? If so, all you need to do is make one link under "See also" for that, and no need to make references out of all the Russian names. References are for outside sources that report on the article, not for translating words or names into another non-Latin script. See the manual of style. I would say it is not necessary at all, but if you'd like to put the initial name of Larissa in her Russian name that wouldn't be a big deal.

As for repeating Wiki-links like every mention of Murmansk be clickable, again that's not really how Wikipedia does it. The first mention is wiki-linked, but any mention after that isn't. This is to avoid excessive "blue text" articles, as that too detracts from the article's readability. As for you editing/fixing stuff, feel free to fix anything, but just the writing of sentences is probably best to work out here first. As for the Polish link, I've no idea, I don't know what Polish looks like, lol. ^{Ariel♥ Gold} 07:58, 11 August 2007 (UTC) reply

Molobo had mentioned the Polish media, but I did not find the reference. Where is it? dima 07:49, 11 August 2007 (UTC) reply

I'm just going to paste what I did here. It is getting too messy but eh, we can archive if needed. ^{Ariel♥ Gold} 09:35, 11 August 2007 (UTC) reply

My comments in italics under yours However, note that this is most likely not appropriate for the article, a transcribed conversation isn't something put into articles. But, we could possibly use quotes from it, or summarize the conversation, I'd like to wait to see the outcome of the RfA before putting this part in. I've restored my original translation for my own reference, if you write yours in bold, mine will be in italic, and original in plain text it will make it easier. ^{Ariel♥ Gold}

Conversation on the telephone of Corresoindent of Novaya Gazeta" to Yevgeny YENIN (i.o. of the head physician of the Murmansk regional psychiatric hospital at Apatity)

• Reporters would like to ask you about the hospitalization of Larissa.

- Yevgeny Nikolayevich, I am journalist of the newspaper Novaya Gazeta", andI would like to ask for your commentary apropos of the hospitalization of Larissa Arap.

Apropos = (relating to/about/regarding)

- I cannot comment on. The Law forbids to me even to report about the fact of the presence here of patient. This is medical secret. Look art. 9 of the Law On thepsychiatric aid.

• I cannot comment on Larissa, as the law is clear, without the presence and approval of a patient, I cannot comment on her medical status.

• The law is clear, I cannot comment on any patient in the facility

- but this is the well-known fact that she it is here.

• But isn't it true that Larissa is in fact, a patient here?

- it can be so, but I do not have the right to confirm this.

• I do not have the right to confirm or deny information

- We want to present in our newspaper the different points of view about this case, not only the opinions of human right defenders. Aren't you interested, that in the information would be neutral?

• Reporters wish to write about the point of view regarding this patient. And not only Larissa, but the treatment of patients with regards to their human rights. Are you not interested in this?

- I cannot give data regarding patients, or their diagnoses.

• I cannot give you any information regarding patients, or their diagnoses

- I do not ask its diagnosis and the treatment assigned, I do not ask you to reveal the medical secret. Say only, now (Ambiguis espression. Now might mean, that the correspondent want the answer now. Perhaps, it mean, that the correspondent asks about present state of the patient.), from your point of view, Is Arap dangerous for herself or surrounding?

• I don't ask for the diagnosis, I only wish to know if Larissa is a threat to herself or others.

- No comments. This refers to the medical secret.

• No comment. I cannot reveal patient information.
• Again, I cannot comment, as that relates to her medical condition

- What is forecast, when will she be released?

• Can you tell us when she will be released?

- About this, also I cannot speak. No questions about the concrete patients. I can to you speak only to general–human topics.

• I cannot talk about the patient's situation. I can only speak of general situations.

Conversation on the telephone of Corresoindent of Novaya Gazeta to Yevgeny YENIN (i.o. of the head physician of the Murmansk regional psychiatric hospital at Apatity)

— Евгений Николаевич, я журналист «Новой газеты» и хотел бы попросить у вас комментарий по поводу госпитализации Ларисы Арап.
- Yevgeny Nikolayevich, I am journalist of the newspaper Novaya Gazeta, and I would like to ask for your commentary with respect to the hospitalization of Larissa Arap.

— Я не могу комментировать. Закон запрещает мне даже сообщать о факте нахождения здесь больной. Это медицинская тайна. Посмотрите ст. 9 Закона о психиатрической помощи.
- I cannot comment on. The Law forbids to me even to report about the fact of the presence here of the patient. This is medical secret. Look art. 9 of the Law On thepsychiatric aid.

— Но это общеизвестный факт, что она здесь находится.
- but this is the well-known fact that she is here.

— Может быть, но я не имею права это подтверждать.
- it can be so, but I do not have the right to confirm this.

— Мы хотим представить в нашей газете разные точки зрения об этом случае, а не только мнения правозащитников. Разве вы не заинтересованы в том, чтобы информация была объективной?
- We want to present in our newspaper the different points of view about this case, not only the opinions of human right defenders. Aren't you interested, that in the information would be neutral?

— Я не могу давать сведения о больных. Вы сейчас спросите ее диагноз.
- I cannot give data regarding patients, or their diagnoses.

— Я не спрашиваю ее диагноз и назначенное лечение, я не прошу вас выдавать медицинскую тайну. Скажите только, сейчас, с вашей точки зрения, Арап представляет угрозу для себя или окружающих?
- I do not ask its diagnosis and the treatment assigned, I do not ask you to reveal the medical secret. Say only, now ^[2], from your point of view, is Arap dangerous for herself or surrounding?

— Без комментариев. Это относится к медицинской тайне.
- No comments. This refer to the medical secret.

— А каков прогноз, когда ее выпустят?
- What is forecast, when will she be released?

— Я об этом тоже не могу говорить. Никаких вопросов о конкретных больных. Я могу с вами говорить только на общечеловеческие темы.
- Again, I cannot comment about this. No questions about patients. With you, I can talk only in general-human topic.

— Хорошо, вопрос на общечеловеческую тему: скажите, а как вы лично относитесь к фактам использования психиатрии в политических целях в СССР?
- Well, the question on the general-human topic: say, what is your personal attitude to the facts use of psychiatry for political purposes in the CCCP?

— Я могу судить только по сообщениям в прессе, но если такое в Советском Союзе действительно было, то я возмущен.
- I can judge only by the communications in the press, but if such things in the Soviet Unionwas actually took place, I am horrified.

— А вы не думаете, что такое может повториться и сегодня?
- Don't you think that this can be repeated today?

— Может быть, где-нибудь теоретически такое и может повториться, но у нас этого нет, в нашей больнице нет.
- there can be, somewhere, theoretically such can be repeated, but we do not have this, in our hospital – no.

— То есть случай с Ларисой Арап вы не относите к таким?
- i.e., the case with Larissa Arap, you do qualify it in such a way?

— Частные случаи не комментирую.
-I cannot comment on specific cases.

— А я могу поговорить с ней по телефону?
- Can I talk to her by telephone?

— Не можете. Неизвестно, захочет ли она с вами разговаривать, и вообще для этого нужно согласие ее представителей. Вот сегодня у нас будут здесь представители из Комитета здравоохранения, которые курируют больницу, из прокуратуры и с ними журналисты. Читайте, что они напишут.
- No, you can not. It is unknown, weather she wants to talk with you; and, generally, for this, is necessary the agreement of her representatives. Today, we have here representatives from the committee of public health, which treat hospital, from the procuratorship and with them journalists. Read, that they will write.

Above, it is my new intent to translate the dialogue. I think, it was error, to use the machine translation. dima 10:22, 11 August 2007 (UTC) Ariel, I suggest that you copy-past this text in the new section if you edit it. dima 10:26, 11 August 2007 (UTC) reply

Dima, don't worry so much about this. The truth is, it cannot be put into the article. While it can be mentioned that this employee/doctor of the hospital was asked about the patient by the media, it is not appropriate to put a transcript of such a thing in an article. Truly don't worry so much about it :) Basically, the press asked this doctor to talk about Larissa, and he said over and over "No comment", "I can't talk about a patient's condition" and "I can't talk about it". That is normal for any country, as medical laws do indeed forbid a doctor from disclosing any information regarding patients unless someone has a court order or such. So don't stress it, basically the line is already in the article, it already says that he was asked to comment and wouldn't. ^{Ariel♥ Gold}

Ariel, I did the translation not for the article, I did it for you, after to see, how wrong is the automatic translation, and how heavy were your efforts to understand the text by bot-translator. Making the translation, I understand better the sense of the dialogue. From my point of view, the key points are: (1) The psychiatrist rejects the intent of the correspondent to talk with Larisa, and (2) unability to answere the question, weather Larisa is dangerous for herself and surrounding people. Now you can mention this in the article. You can mention these two points in the article. dima 23:51, 11 August 2007 (UTC) reply

What needs to be done is to remove the Russian names in parenthesis () after each word. Again, this is not in keeping with the manual of style and highly distracting. There is no need for the Russian translation of words or names to be anywhere in the article, this is the English version, it needs to be in English. the vast majority of readers won't know Russian from Hieroglyphics, so there is no need to place them anywhere else in the article (and they are not a reference). A simple link to the Russian Wikipedia article for this is sufficient. Once all those Russian characters are removed from the article, it will be extremely easier to read, and proof-read/clarify/cleanup. ^{Ariel♥ Gold} 17:27, 11 August 2007 (UTC) reply

Most of Russian names ot Russian institutions do not allow the refersible translation. Most of Russian names ro not allow reversibel transliteration. For example

(I exagerrate), if President of United Nations comes to the clynic at Apatity (if he finds it, translating the name of organization from English to Russian), and says, that he wants to see Yulya Kopyia, it is difficult to guess (especially without will to guess well), that he means (Копыйя, Юлия Игоревна). I can move the Russian spellings into footnotes, how to you like this? dima 00:03, 12 August 2007 (UTC) reply

Also, publications specify the age of Larisa: some say 48; then, some say 49. This means that during July, she become 49. These two data allow to estimate the data of her birth: July of 1958. We should specify at least the birthyear in the article. dima 00:03, 12 August 2007 (UTC) reply

Gotcha Dima :) Why don't you go through the article and remove all the Russian text, honestly, if you read the AfD, that's the most distracting part, and why people have problems understanding. From there, we can let it rest until the outcome of AfD, and cross your fingers it is "Keep", we can then go ahead and re-write from scratch, using the links that are in English below. Sound good? (Plus, no more work for you to translate! :D ) ^{Ariel♥ Gold} 00:39, 12 August 2007 (UTC) reply

I waited for your condirmation. OK, I go through the article. dima 00:45, 12 August 2007 (UTC) reply

This story is painful to try to read, because of its strange sentence structure, and because of all the unnecessary Cyrillic words to show us what every person and place name looks like in Russian. Please take a look at coverage in the English language press and base the article on it. This will allow the article to be re-written by persons fluent in English. The facts can be checked by those who are fluent in Russian against the Russian articles. See [1] The Independent, "Russian dissident 'forcibly detained in mental hospital'" by By Alastair Gee, 30 July 2007. See [2] "Activist sent to mental clinic: Russian opposition" in Washington Post, By Olesya Dmitracova, from the Reuters press wire service, Monday, July 30, 2007. See [3] "Russian dissidents called mentally ill. Soviet-era practice revived, activists say." by Alex Rodriguez, the Chicago Tribune, August 7, 2007. See [4] "Russian Dissident Forced Into Mental Hospital." by Adrian Blomfeld, The Daily Telegraph, (reprinted in the New York Sun) July 31, 2007. See [5] "U.S. Consul Not Planning to Visit Journalist Larisa Arap at Mental Hospital." Interfax wire service, 2 August 2007, 21:19 CDT. See [6] "Psychiatric abuse claim in Russia . Russia's official human rights investigator says it will investigate allegations of psychiatric abuse against an opposition activist." BBC news, Wednesday, 1 August 2007, 14:15 GMT 15:15 UK . See [7] "Appeal as Russian writer is held in psychiatric clinic." by Chris Stephen, The Scotsman, July 30, 2007. See also the article Psikhushka about the former Soviet and present Russian government's use of psychiatric hospitals to silence opposition voices. If Ms. Arap is judged non-notable, then this could be Smerged (shortened and merged) into that article. Edison 19:12, 11 August 2007 (UTC) reply

Thank you, and yes, we're working on it, but as the article is up for AfD, rather than put all the time into something that may be deleted, we're working things out here, and if the article is kept, we'll re-write it completely. Most definitely as I've explained above, the Russian words need to be removed. But I completely appreciate you listing all those English references, omg that helps SO much! And as I noted on the AfD page, we do have to keep the perspective of "future" notability in mind, so if this does end up not being notable, it could (and should) be merged into another article, the one you suggest looks like a good fit. Thank you so much! ^{Ariel♥ Gold} 19:51, 11 August 2007 (UTC) reply

Dear

• Arkady D.Rubin
• A.V.Onegin
• Evgeny Zenin
• Yulya Kopyia
• Olga Reshet
• Maria Rekish
• L.G.Pasechnaya

Will you indicate, please, if any misspelling in the English transliteration of in your names takes place. dima 07:51, 12 August 2007 (UTC) reply

Уважаемые

• Аркадий Д.Рубин
• А.В.Онегин
• Евгений Николаевич Зенин
• Юлия Игоревна Копыйя
• Ольга Решет
• Мария Рекиш
• Л.Г.Пасечная

Я не уверен что мы указываем правильные английские транслитерации ваших имен. Пожалуйста, скажите, если вы хотите исправить транслитерацию, или исправьте сами. dima 07:51, 12 August 2007 (UTC) reply

Dima, as you've noticed, Biophys has come to rescue me . Since s/he is much more versed in Russian culture and language than I, s/he's agreed to assist with the article.

I'd like to note to you that in all probability, those people you are listing above do not read Wikipedia, and this is the English Wikipedia, so the spelling of their names in Russian is irrelevant. Biophys can assist you with the English translations of their names. I will check back periodically, but here are the things that I see need to be done:

• The references section needs all Russian-language references removed. References need to be useful to the reader, and the majority of English Wiki users will not speak or read Russian.
• I personally think the article should be completely re-written from scratch, using only English articles as references, and removing the "timeline" section, incorporating that into the "history" section as prose.
• The first sentence in the "History" section should be re-written, removing the Russian text. It means nothing to an English reader. If the name is not translatable, simply say "in an article".
• I'd also suggest moving the "Reasons for hospitalization" section into the main section, perhaps re-titling "History" into something else.

I'd like to see those changes made, as it will make the article much more reader-friendly, as well as improve clarity. As it is now, it is still basically the backbone of the original, and thus, pretty muddy. Of course ultimately, it is up to those working on it, but I've watched this from nearly day one, as you know, and I've seen it evolve. It is still a difficult read, and not really one that "grabs" the reader to continue reading. Mainly this is due to the format of the article, and the writing style as it is mostly translated text, and there isn't a lot that you can do with that, it ends up feeling disjointed.

I'll check back in, and you can always grab me on my talk page if you need anything. ^{Ariel♥ Gold} 02:23, 15 August 2007 (UTC) reply

I will try to improve this article, but my time is very limited. Dima did good job by collecting information from many Russian language sources. I believe such sources can and should be used to some degree, although you are right in general. Biophys 03:24, 15 August 2007 (UTC) reply

I agree they can be helpful, but would better be served in a separate section, such as "Russian References", and not used as footnotes in the article itself. For the main article, the English references should be used. But yes, I agree they could be added for any user who may be able to read them. And again, Biophys, my sincere thanks for your assistance! ^{Ariel♥ Gold} 03:30, 15 August 2007 (UTC) reply

It seems you are right. I copied text with Russian references here. If Dima wants, he can reinsert some of this stuff back. Biophys 13:11, 15 August 2007 (UTC) reply

I would rcover the references to other vikis (even those which are in Russian, those which are not friendly, and those ehich are not "neutral") not linked automaticallu with interviki. I do not want the edition war, so, I suggest this here. dima 19:49, 15 August 2007 (UTC). reply

Dima, you are welcome to recover the references with text. Just add whatever you think should be added to current version and make sure that you have a coherent text without obvious repeats. Besides, some portions of the text are already outdated. As for references to wikis, they are not considered reliable sources. But you can include them in "External links" section - no problem. When you are using Russian language sources, please provide English translation of the title and authors. Happy editing. Biophys 20:08, 15 August 2007 (UTC) reply

Publicity

Larisa Arap become famous after her non-voluntary hospitalization. Foreign representatives have been informed about the case with Larisa Arap ^[1]. Although there are many publications about Larisa in different languages ^{[2] [3] [4] [5] [6]} , the general opinion is that Larisa's case requires more investigation ^[7].

Some authors do question the participation of Larisa in the article "дурдом": ^[8], but currently there is no information about a court order against the author of that article, (Ilona Novikova) regarding publication of an interview, which may or may not have taken place; nor is there such an order for defamation of the staff at the psychiatric clinic.

There were news reports in July, 2007, that the official representative of the government, Vladimir Lukin promised to investigate the case of Larisa Arap, ^[9], but until August 10, no reports about results of such investigation are available.

Maria Litinovich thinks, that the version about non-voluntary hospitalization of Larisa because of her social may have reasons ^[10]; then, in the case of Larisa Arap, we deal with abuse of psychiatry.

Larisa's hospitalization

Larisa was hospitalized against her will in June of 2007. On June 18, the hospitalization was approved by the court of the Leninsky region of Murmansk. Such a long delay brought up questions about the validity and legality of the actions of the psychiatric hospital.

Roman Chornyj, ^[11], the president of the Civil Commission on Human Rights, a group of right-defenders, requested visitation time to see Larisa, but the request was rejected. ^[12]. Some authors express doubts if Larisa will ever be allowed to leave from the psychiatric hospital ^{[13] [14]}.

Larisa protested against the forced hospitalization ^{[15] [16]}.

The United Civil Front asked for assistance from right-defendors with the legal resolution of Larisa's case. ^[17].

Murmansk officials Arkady Rubin ^[18] and A.V.Onegin ^[19] approve the hospitalization of Larisa Arap.

The "Protect online" insists, the tetension of Larisa is act of punitive medicine ^[20]

Reasons for hospitalization

Many authors believe that the reasons for Larisa's non-voluntary hospitalization were not related to her health, but were related to her revelation of financial irregularities committed by the governors of the living-building society (жилищно–строительн кооператв), and participation in the article Durdom ^[21]. According to Larisa, the officials of FSB (main successor of KGB) warned her three times to keep silent about the financial faults of the chief of the cooperative.

Emmanuil Gushansky (psychiatric physician and independent expert) indicated that the non-voluntary hospitalization was not approved in time for the resolution of the court; and as such, at least some violation of law took place. ^[22].

E. Bilevskaya and P. Kolobov reported that Larisa's relatives submitted the complaint petition to the procurement office, but were afraid that they may also be declared as mentally ill. ^[23].

Much more coherent with regards to the headers and sections. Much better without the Russian references. While I agree they can be of some use, they don't belong in the "references" section, but would fit in a "Russian language references" section. You guys have done a great job re-writing this, Kudos! ^{Ariel♥ Gold} 22:13, 15 August 2007 (UTC) reply

I checked again today, and by golly this is amazing, compared to what it was when I started work on it, this is simply fantastic, and just a huge thanks to both Dima, and Biophys for their tireless work cleaning it up, making it presentable and readable, as well as interesting! Just an excellent job to all who participated! And the references section is just beautiful! Well done! ^{Ariel♥ Gold} 04:24, 17 August 2007 (UTC) reply

Automatically translated text: Olga Reshet and Marina Reckesh-who is who.-important -lot of mistake in press

Сразу после принудительного помещения Арап в больницу, её дочь и зять попытались узнать, почему она была госпитализирована в срочном порядке, и, по их словам, врач/ duty doctor Yulya Kopyia or Марина Рекеш ?/ повёлa себя агрессивно, заявилa, что из-за публикации в газете, и пригрозилa таким же образом госпитализировать и дочь и зятя Арап [8].

Таисия /дочь Л.Арап /: Когда я приехала, ее уже не застала в приемном отделении, ее уже увели. У дежурного доктора я попросила ознакомиться с основаниями принудительной госпитализации, то есть именно с направлением участкового врача/ Ольга Решет/. Мне было в ознакомлении в данных документом категорически отказано. Причем доктор мне не совсем в этичном виде кинула газету, в которой была опубликована статья «Дурдом», сказала, что это ненормально, чтобы писались подобные статьи, и вообще, моя мама, возможно, будет проходить очень длительное лечение, и возможно, вообще не будет выписана и останется там.

May be Marina Reckesh-main doctor of L.Arap in Hospital.

Olga Reshet and Marina Reckesh-who is who.-important -lot of mistake in press

immediately after the forced Arap the hospital, her daughter and son-in-law tried to find out why she was hospitalized as a matter of urgency, and, in their words, the doctor / duty doctor Yulya Kopyia orMarina Rekesh? / behaved in a violent, a stated that due to be published in the newspaper and threatened a hospitalized in the same manner and daughter and son-in-law Arap [9].

Here Taisiya / daughter L. Arap : When I arrived, it is not caught in the reception office, it has been taken away. A duty doctor, I asked on what grounds the hospital, which is precisely a District doctor / Olga Reshet. I was reading in the paper flatly refused. And Doctor, I did not unethical in a drowning newspaper, which published an article "RV", said that it was not normal that these articles were written, and in general, my mom probably will be a very long-term care, and possibly not at all tickets will remain there. <blockquote

May be Marina Reckesh-main doctor of L.Arap in Hospital

Suggest a better translation —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Zasdcxz ( talk • contribs).

Участие психиатра Ольги Рашет как первого врача инициировавшего госпитализацию госпожи Л. Арап подтверждается фотокопией [10] [11] решения суда /18 07.2007-Мурманск/ о насильной госпитализации. Подпись " Решет О" -как представителя Североморска стоит второй после подписи судьи Пасечной Л.Г. Thank you:)

Lot of mistakes in press now who is who -Olga Reshet and Marina Reckesh

Participation psychiatrist Olga Rashet as the first doctor initiating hospitalization Mrs. L. Arap confirmed photocopies [12] [13] judgement / 18 07.2007- Murmansk / of the forced hospitalization. Signed "Reshet O" - as the representative of Severomorsk is the second after the signature of Judge Pasechnoy L. G.

Thank you:-) Zasdcxz 20:30, 21 August 2007 (UTC) reply

Zasdcxz, please feel free to edit whatever you want. I will correct you a little you if something is wrong. Biophys 21:13, 21 August 2007 (UTC) reply

Is Marina Rekish doctor at Apatity clinic? dima 11:05, 23 August 2007 (UTC) reply

Compare the Russian wikipedia article. It is much closer to NPOV, because it contains not only Araps's version, but also the point of view and the statements of the various psychiatrists and authorities involved. This English-language article consists of an extremely selective translation. -- 91.148.159.4 ( talk) 01:44, 17 November 2007 (UTC) reply

About your last edit... She "was sick" with what? Flu? Chest pain? Your source should explain that. Biophys ( talk) 00:43, 19 November 2007 (UTC) reply

"My" source? My source is the same Russian language article that had been referenced in the footnote before my edit. It quotes the psychiatrist, Savenko. Since he examined her as a psychiatrist, I think it's clear that "sick" refers to her mental condition.-- 91.148.159.4 ( talk) 00:58, 19 November 2007 (UTC) reply

What mental condition? Sluggishly progressing schizophrenia? This source does not specify any mental condition, and it does not tell this is a mental condition. In fact she told herself: "I feel very sick... I have no idea what they gave me but I have memory loss. I lost all sense of time and can’t remember much of what they did to me. They tied and beat me. It was torture." Was he talking about that sickness? If so, this should be clearly stated. Biophys ( talk) 02:21, 19 November 2007 (UTC) reply

<sigh> No. Savenko said nothing of the sort, and made no reference to the alleged torture. He assessed the decision of his colleagues who hospitalized Arap, and he criticized it, saying that while she was sick, she was not as sick as to need hospitalization. So he wasn't talking about the present result of the alleged torture, he was talking about her condition at the time when the decision for hospitalization was made (which he apparently assumed had been the same as it was when he examined her). Note that despite this, Savenko is generally supportive of the "punitive psychiatry" accusations, as the other quotes show.

To make sure it's clear which text we are talking about (I keep getting contraditing impressions whether it's clear or not), I quote:

МНЕНИЕ ЭКСПЕРТА:

"Она действительно больной человек, но не нуждавшийся в недобровольном стационарном лечении, - заявил Совенко в интервью Русской службе Би-би-си. - Ее вполне можно было бы лечить амбулаторно. Она была госпитализирована в связи с непосредственной опасностью для себя и окружающих. Этого близко не было".

Translation: "She really is a sick person, but she didn't need involuntary hospitalization, Sovenko said in an interview with the Russian service of the BBC. - It was fully possible to treat her as an outpatient. She was hospitalized as if she was an immediate threat to herself and those around. This wasn't even close to true." -- 91.148.159.4 ( talk) 21:33, 19 November 2007 (UTC) reply

As folows from your text, he did not tell what exactly was her sickness, he did not cite any specific diagnosis, although he is a doctor. O'K, I found a source that tells what it was and will cite it. Biophys ( talk) 22:07, 19 November 2007 (UTC) reply

Your source doesn't say what Savenko diagnosed her with either. It only says what she admits to having been hospitalized for in 2004, which is a different matter. As for Savenko, his admission that she is "ill" is relevant per se - the fact that he didn't say any concrete diagnosis doesn't make it less relevant.

Anyway, I reworded to make it clear that "stress and insomnia" isn't Savenko's diagnosis, and I added a precise quote from your source to avoid misunderstandings or further disputes about interpretation.-- 91.148.159.4 ( talk) 22:55, 19 November 2007 (UTC) reply

See here for Putin's next target. Malick78 ( talk) 10:03, 6 February 2008 (UTC) reply

Please explain why did you delete this [14]. "Linkfarm" is not the answer, as these particular links are useful for a reader. Why not? Biophys ( talk) 03:30, 28 April 2009 (UTC) reply

Please read WP:EL. Long lists of links are not acceptable. Wikipedia is not a web directory. If you want to include them explain for each one individually why it is necessary and justified. Offliner ( talk) 03:32, 28 April 2009 (UTC) reply

No, you must explain why these specific links "should be avoided" rather than "considered" please read here. Biophys ( talk) 04:02, 28 April 2009 (UTC) reply

You deleted the following links:

• CPJ.org - 'Writer forcibly hospitalized in Russia', an official statement by the Committee to Protect Journalists (August 14, 2007)
• E1.ru (Russian language) - Photo copied documents in the case of Larisa Arap
• EJ.ru (original publication, in Russian) - 'The triumph of punitive psychiatry in Murmansk', Alexandr Podrabinek, Ezhednevnyj Zhurnal (August 9, 2007)
• Activist tells about torture and captivity, By David R. Sands, October 16, 2007 , The Washington Times
• Rights Activist Tells of Detention In Russian Psychiatric Institutions By Nora Boustany, Washington Post, October 22, 2007

• Russophobe.blogspot.com (English translation) - 'The Saga of Larisa Arap: The Triumph of Punitive Psychiatry in Murmansk' Aleksandr Podrabinek, Yezhednevniy Zhurnal (August 11, 2007)

• EVasiljeva.LiveJournal.com (Russian) - E. Vasilyev, a confidant of Larissa Arap
• FSUMonitor.com - 'Soviet Practice Of Institutionalizing Dissidents Revived', an official statement by the Union of Councils for Jews in the Former Soviet Union, Bigotry Monitor (August 10, 2007)
• Grani.ru (Russian) - List of publications related to Larisa Arap

• Grani.ru (Russian) - 'Slowgoing crime', Valeria Novodvorskaya

• Msk.ru (Russian) - Julija Latynina "access code" radio Echo of Moscow
• Telegraph.co.uk - 'Labelled mad for daring to criticise the Kremlin', Adrian Blomfield, The Daily Telegraph (August 14, 2007)
• Times.co.uk - 'Putin brings back mental ward torment', Mark Franchetti (August 26, 2007)
• Larisa Arap Unprovable - Her story (in Russian)

Please explain why they "should be avoided" per Wikipedia:EL#What_should_be_linked. Biophys ( talk) 17:22, 30 April 2009 (UTC) reply

I suggest you read WP:ELNO, in particular:

Any site that does not provide a unique resource beyond what the article would contain if it became a Featured article.

Wikipedia is not a dumping ground which exists for Biophys to spam the see also and external links section with multitudes of links, which if they contain anything should be used as references in the article. Otherwise, they have no place. What Offliner is doing is called clean up of such links across many many articles, and it has my full support. -- Russavia ^Dialogue 22:38, 30 April 2009 (UTC) reply

I recover the links, they are not spam. They are more informative than a database search. dima ( talk) 23:45, 16 May 2009 (UTC) reply

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Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 05:13, 17 December 2017 (UTC) reply