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This article failed good article nomination. This is how the article, as of May 13, 2007, compares against the six good article criteria:
1. Well written?: Yes.
2. Factually accurate?: Apparently.
3. Broad in coverage?: Yes.
4. Neutral point of view?: Generally.
5. Article stability? No. Article has an ongoing edit/flame war that should die and stay dead for some time before resubmitting.
6. Images?: Yes.
If you feel that this review is in error, feel free to take it to a GA review. Thank you for your work so far. Wryspy 18:04, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
-- User:Krator ( t c) 14:12, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
PS: My intention with the quotefarm tag is not related to neutrality or (N)POV, or alleged bias. It has to do with the fact that it is a badly written article that doesn't read like an encyclopaedia article.
The work in progress tag has been added, and I will paraphrase some of the quotations as suggested above. Please respect. Smee 07:55, 18 April 2007 (UTC).
Please participate HERE before you simply re-write sections. Lets obtain a concensus so that we do not end up constantly reverting things. Please participate in group discussions and planning. Lets collaberate on the articles instead of making unilateral edits. Lsi john 15:39, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
Hi again. Actually the main source (the book) is not self published. Its published by John Wiley & Sons Inc (30 Aug 2003) [2] Jeffrire 06:04, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
Interestingly enough, I don't recall Skeptics dictionary referring to NLP as a LGAT when I looked at it some months ago. It may be that my memory is at fault, or maybe he got it off Wiki. The blind leading the blind? Fainites 21:28, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
Re your Eisner discussion above, actually Eisner misquoted Sharpley and Elich. Elich (who did a study which concluded that PRS was rubbish) said 'NLP has achieved something akin to cult status when it may be nothing more than a psychological fad" (p625), not was 'akin to a cult'. Sharpley quoted Elich in his major reviews in 84 and 87. Eisner has misquoted both. Sharpley and Elich are both experimental psychologists who were dealing with scientific research on NLP's theoretical underpinnings and its usefulness or otherwise in therapy. Neither scientific paper is in anyway about whether NLP is a cult or not although NLP is pretty much slated in many other ways. I can let you have the papers if you wish to see them. Sharpley is quoted extensively on the NLP page. Fainites 20:48, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
Fainties, when I quote Eisner, I am giving his view. Eisner wrote a long section on NLP and its not at all positive. He seems to be talking about NLP as if its some sort of cult and he mentions it in the same section as his discussion of LGATs. He doesn't make exhaustive lists of LGATs but he does talk about LGATs and mentions their attributes, which NLP also shares. I think its extemely obvious that NLP is taught in LGAT format and can be considered a kind of LGAT. There's information about Tony Robbins teaching a type of NLP and Tony Robbins clearly teaches in LGATs according to source. I havn't kept the sources there because they are abundant. NLP seems to be mentioned in several books about cults within the LGAT description. I'll go back to the sources and make sure that NLP is properly sourced as an LGAT. Jeffrire 02:43, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
Skeptics dictionary on the web is a reputable source. Carroll seems to me to be highly reputable as an expert. He is running that particular website so the information is reputable. When he says NLP is an LGAT I think he's stating the obvious. Just looking at the adverts for NLP is convincing enough. Carroll's website is fine even on its own. It satisfies WP:RS already, and other RS sources have been kindly supplied. Jeffrire 02:51, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
Being criticised, or even being a crap therapy, (which is what the psych criticism is about) doesn't make it a cult. Eisner can't 'seem' to be calling NLP a cult or a LGAT. Either he is or he isn't. If you've finally found some reputable sources Headley, then by all means show us them. I don't buy this 'I haven't kept the sources because they're abundant'. Fainites 21:16, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
Its easy, just do a web search. There are enough already. I found Elich and I was right. NLP it treated with quite some derision. Btw, who's Headley? Jeffrire 04:08, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
Ypu claimed Elich said it was a cult. Give us the quote! But you won't will you. You never do. As for who's Headley, you know very well but for the attention of others see [ [3]]. Fainites 20:36, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
Heres a full quote from Sharpley (1987) if anyones interested. "If it is true that there are data in the clinical files of proponents of NLP that support it in a way different from the experimental data reviewed, then these need to be published and examined according to the traditional methodological yardsticks of experimental and evaluative literature. Until that time the enquirer in this field may be forgiven for accepting the conclusion of Elich et al (1985) "NLP has achieved something akin to cult status when it may be nothing more than a psychological fad" (p625)". It was a literature review of a total of 44 studies on preferred representational systems, of which Elich et al's was one on eye movements as indicators of mental imagery. All very arcane I know, but this is within the field of experimental psychology, not cults and the like. Fainites 22:39, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
In the opening paragraph we say:
"is a phrase used to describe commercial trainings of a period of days which include various techniques from group therapy and the human potential movement but are usually run by non-psychologists"
I have several questions/issues with the wording.
The way its worded now seems to violate WP:OR. If anyone has the answers to these questions, I would like to know. Thanks. Lsi john 21:37, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
"In 1989 researchers from the University of Connecticut received the "National Consultants to Management Award" from the American Psychological Association, for their study: Evaluating a Large Group Awareness Training[9]."
I have altered the sentence on Singer and Partidge as it could have created a misleading impression that Singer called NLP a LGAT. Fainites 16:37, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
Also, the only mention of NLP in Cults in our Midst is as follows;
In the circumstances, the prominence given to NLP when citing Singer in your techniques section seems unjustified. Unless your cite is from some other Singer writing, but it is not clear from the ref given. Fainites 16:45, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
On further examination it seems your only Singer ref. is 'Cults in our Midst' so I have inserted a more accurate version of what is said. Fainites 20:32, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
The section comes from a chapter called Intruding into the Workplace in a book called Cults In Our Midst. It makes an in depth discussion of LGATs and calls them "training programs" then there is a section about "the problems of being transformed at work" and here it is in full:
"Problems with Being "Transformed" at Work"
"The following cases illustrate some of what has happened when employers sent employees to certain - training programs. In part of these cases, the employees sought redress because they felt they had been coerced by their employers to attend and/or had been harmed by the programs.
Aside from complaining that they were being put through programs tantamount to a forced religious conversion, employees also objected to specific techniques being used: meditation, neurolinguistic programming, biofeedback, self-hypnosis, bizarre relaxation techniques, mind control, body touching, yoga, trance inductions, visualization, and in some cases, intense confrontational sessions akin to the "attack" therapy methods that emerged in the 1960s and 1970s.
From a tire factory in Albany, Georgia, to a car dealership in Tacoma, Washington, workers began to put up resistance to the imposition of religious values and the intense influence techniques used in the workplace training programs."
This is all good information for LGAT related articles. The second section could be quoted in full. The rest of it could be put into paraphrasing, using keywords like coerced, harmed, imposition of religious values and influence techniques.
Jeffrire
03:08, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
I've put the list of techniques into the article. Am I right in thinking that LGATs almost invariably have some kind of religious or spiritual content? Fainites 08:20, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
I'm perfectly happy with reliable sources appearing. But if you think Singer in Cults in Our Midst' describes or names NLP as a LGAT, then I suggest you read it again. The sentence discussed above is the only mention of NLP in the whole book. This can hardly be carelessness on Singers part. She slates NLP totally in her book 'Crazy Therapies', but not for being a LGAT or a cult. Just for being an overblown, scientifically unvalidated crap 'therapy'. Similarly Langone has written about NLP being used by cults. (You can find this on the NLP page) but nowhere does he state that in his opinion NLP is a cult. Being a LGAT and being used by some LGATs are two very different things. It is a perjorative term that should not be bandied around lightly by reference to any paragraph that happens to have the words 'NLP' and 'LGAT' in it, however peripheral the connection. Do I take it that you now propose on that basis to also call biofeedback, self hypnosis, yoga and visualization (a common techniques in many mainstream therapies) LGATs? After all, they're all in Singers list. As for the rest of your above paragraph, if you say Singer groups NLP with est, Landmark, and Scientology, then give us the full quote and context please. As for the religious association, NLP is criticsed as a New Age therapy, not religion. Again, you can see that criticism on the NLP page. Did you want to see the Sharpley and Elich papers by the way? Fainites 11:14, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
a) New Age also refers to a culture and covers many things, not all religious b) if you're interested in what Sharpley and Elich say, I have already offered to e-mail you the papers. Or aren't you interested in what they actually say? Your supposition as to what they say is in fact quite wrong. c)The Skeptics website is not the same as the book d) if it's such an obvious fact that NLP is a LGAT, how come all the major commentators appear to have missed it? e) if you find a decent source, then good for you, but so far this looks like just a POV push. Fainites 19:59, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
Quite. NLP is used a huge variety of ways, undoubtedly including some LGATs and some cults. But it could never be one. It has no central spiritual or religious philosophy, no organisation, no leader and no aim. The main proponents can't even agree on it. Fainites 20:27, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
Yes Krator. I don't think anyone is pushing the line that "NLP is LGAT". The main argument is around whether the sources are sufficient for the view that NLP is related to LGATs in relation to this article. The skeptics website itself may be insufficient, but the book is solid. Of course its my view that NLP is definitely run as a LGAT by the look of the providers on the web. Just my POV. I only want to present reliable sources that support the view NLP is in the category of LGAT, associated with LGATS, and used within other LGATs and cults. But right now I prefer to let things cool off and do some more solid research. I am more interested in properly sourcing LGAT information as a whole rather than getting into disputes. Jeffrire 12:26, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
On the contrary, one only has to read what you said about Singer above to see that you are pushing the view that NLP is a LGAT, basically because it's mentioned in the same book! How many times does this point have to be made? Singer and Langone do not describe NLP as a LGAT. Nor as far as I am aware does any other major investigator or commentator. The only citation of any note is Partridge and that is a passing reference. Skeptics Dictionaru is fine as a secondary source, but hardly a primary source. He cites no sources for his assertion. No compendium can be considered a primary source if it is not based on primary sources. Nobody as far as I am aware disputes that NLP is used by LGATs and cults.I don't think this back door approach is going to work Headley. Fainites 20:32, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
Sorry Krator. It's just that we've been through all this so many times on the NLP page already. Fainites 22:22, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
I have just reverted an anon related to this topic, who deleted one of the references to neuro-linguistic programming on this article. My suspicion (and hope) is that this is one of the involved editors who simply forgot to log in. As an addition to my edit summary, I want to invite that user to summarize the debate here that has, according to his edit summary, taken place on the talk page of another article. -- User:Krator ( t c) 23:08, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
Actually there's nothing wrong with one source of it's authoritative and not just a passing reference or a superficial compendium but nobody as yet has produced one. If NLP were a LGAT sources would surely not be so difficult to find and so thin when produced. It might be more fruitful to look for an example of NLP taught in LGAT form by a particular operater or company if there is a reliable source. For the reasons already given above (by Krator), trying to say NLP is LGAT is a bit like trying to say pain relief is aspirin. Tony Robbins could be an example though. Does anyone have an authoritive source to say what he does is LGATs? He's pretty much slated by Salerno in SHAM but as a lifestyle guru I think. However, he does seem to do the week long, mass audience thing. Fainites 22:13, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
The article lead has been reworked, to incorporate input from 3O as well as readability and flow.
Some information was moved to more appropriate sub-sections.
Lsi john 13:28, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
OK, then make your case, we can discuss, and anything useful may possibly be considered. Jeffrire 13:55, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
Jeffrire, there were no substantial substance changes in my revisions. I re-ordered some wording and believe that I improved readability. The opening lead is now less filled with quotes per Krator's comments. The opening lead now gives a brief overview, supported by documented citations later. All citations remained intact. There was no reason to fully revert my edits.
Each of my edits was made separately. There was not one-single major rewrite.
Is it your request, and promise, to discuss every edit prior to making them? I am willing to agree to that, if it is your proposal and you are going to follow it also.
If there is an objection to my revisions, why not indicate here what they are? No citations were removed, only relocated.
I actually intended for my edits to bring a balance and blend. There are many things that remain in the article that I would remove, if I allowed myself to be biased in the editing.
Lsi john 17:12, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
(relocated from user talk page)
Krator, was it your intention that your 3O comment be used as justification for a major revert on the entire series of edits?
Also, would you be so kind as to give feedback on the current version of the article lead (after my edits) as compared to the version prior to them.
Thank you. Lsi john 17:27, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
"NLP is new age. That makes it religious or quasi religious just the same as est, EMIN, Scientology and the rest. I'm sure Sharpley and Elich treat NLP as lot of pseudoscientific "magical thinking" rubbish and that will be consistent with other cultlike pseudoscientific new age developments. I admit so far the Skeptics Dictionary web page needs further support but the book is bound to be the same as the website. Its such an obvious fact that NLP is a lgat. Jeffrire 13:09, 27 April 2007 (UTC)"
"Hi Smee. I am working on collecting more info on subjects that help the reader understand about LGATs. Do you have any candidate subjects for the category? I heard EMIN was a LGAT, and there are others. Jeffrire 13:13, 27 April 2007 (UTC)"
Some things I noticed while reading the current state of the article: Note, when replying, please make a subsection here instead of inserting your comment with colons into this note.
-- User:Krator ( t c) 20:41, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
I agree, this should be above analysys. However, the current techniques section is very wordy and difficult to read. After a quick reading, it does not appear to actually give specific techniques, but seems rather to give more of an analysys and commentary. I believe most of the verbiage in the current techniques section should be relocated to the analysys section.
If we have a techniques section, that section should only provide specific techniques used, without any analysys, commentary or conclusions. Analysys should be included in the analysys section.
As this would be extensive, I will wait for comments in order to get a group consensus before we do any major work to this section. Lsi john 14:09, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
I agree. I would be willing to take a shot at re-ordering, if there is a mutual agreement from the other editors.
I would not remove any content. I would not remove any citations. I would simply re-order the article in a more logical fashion for the reader.
Let me know. Lsi john 20:56, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
This has always seemed sort of out-of-place. Perhaps it can be incorporated into another section during the re-ordering. Lsi john 20:56, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
Personally, I agree. Although it is abbreviated as LGAT, my experience of the usage here, is an underlying repetition of LGAT, rather than a constructive use. I admit that I also use LGAT for speed, rather than typing out the lengthy Large Group Awareness Training verbiage.
If the focus of the article is about information, then softening the language with the trainings or similar phrase, will enhance readability without removing any substance.
If the objective is to reinforce LGAT in the reader's mind, then there may be objections to reducing the number of times its repeated.
Lsi john 20:56, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
I have removed duplicate entries that also appeared in cited material and books. Actually everything that was in the See Also section was already referenced somewhere else in the article. I left the "List of LGAT" as it seemed directly relevant and worth having as a specific entry. Lsi john 21:19, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
I have cleaned up the categories one-by-one with a comment on why each was removed. I am open to discussion about putting some back, however I do not believe that I removed any which actually apply to this article. Lsi john 21:19, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
Though it has a ways to go to deal with some of the remarks (above), I feel the article is already much improved. Krator, thank you for the time you are spending to help with this article. Lsi john 21:34, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
Krator, could you have a peek at the List of Large Group Awareness Training organizations and methodologies opening Lead and give feedback? It was two or three paragraphs of overlapping and not very coherent wording that seemed to be trying to cram too much into two little space.
Thanks. Lsi john 23:42, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
Were made without consensus, and were highly inappropriate. (In my opinion and the opinion of others, apparently.) And images of books should appear in the article about the book themselves, and in general not in other articles, as per fair use. Smee 05:39, 28 April 2007 (UTC).
Krator, this is exactly what I've been dealing with. We had the makings of a very neutral and well written article, with NO cited sources removed. And Smee comes in and reverts it all, claiming restore cited sources, when no cited sources were removed. Its virtually impossible to get anything well written or balanced when she continues to do this. Lsi john 11:40, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
Smee, I was ready to pull the unbalanced tag off of the article. It is very upsetting to come in and see that hours of work were reverted for no reason. No sources were removed. Things were re-arranged and sorted out. A few sentences were reworded for grammar and clarity. We worked very hard to maintain the information that was in the article and not remove anything significant and not remove any cited sources. Your revert actions are insulting to me personally. The message you sent me is that Lsi_john is incapable of editing this article. And so you reverted to your copy and then proceeded to re-work the article with the ideas we had suggested by our hard work. Please show respect to your fellow editors and work from where they leave off. Lsi john 12:06, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
I worked hard getting all the citations for this article. There used to be (39) citations, now there are only 38. Please tell me what was removed and why. Smee 06:02, 29 April 2007 (UTC).
"All Wikipedia articles and other encyclopedic content must be written from a neutral point of view (NPOV), representing fairly and without bias all significant views (that have been published by reliable sources)."
Quit fighting over semantics and NPOV, and go and edit the article. -- User:Krator ( t c) 16:36, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
Some ideas for new content occured to me:
Feel free to add more. -- User:Krator ( t c) 17:10, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
...looks great, thanks! Smee 01:04, 30 April 2007 (UTC).
Yes its very readable. I would suggest something to work on long term though. I think it could include what LGAT organizers promise from the event (improved lifestyle etc) and also include the criticism or concern by psychologists. Jeffrire 01:53, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
Smee, yes, there are suggestions above. In general, the feeling was that the techniques section doesn't really describe techniques. It generally gives evaluations and opinions. http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Talk:Large_Group_Awareness_Training§ion=7#Things_to_work.2Fthink_with
I would have started working on it, but I know that you prefer to make the major edits and so I waited for you. If we are going to have a techniques section, I believe it should strictly be about techniques, without an assessments, evaluations or opinions about their value or worth. There is already a section for assessments, evaluations and opinions. Lsi john 13:16, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
Which Langone book is that Jeffrire? Is that the article on LGATs here or is the one on rescuing people from cults, or is there another one? Fainites 22:26, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
If so, Amazon have a 'look inside this book' function on that one which is quite handy. Fainites 22:29, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
This is the LGAT page Jeffrire. I don't see any mention of LGATs in Recovery from Cults. His statement about the use of NLP by aggressive cults is already included in the NLP article with a link to the book. Fainites 09:06, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
Yes we have had this discussion before and predict it will occur many times again. As ever, I await decent sources with interest :) Fainites 14:59, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
Nobody has yet produced any major researchers or commentators who say NLP is a LGAT. In the notable researchers and commentators cited on the LGAT page, NLP is conspicuous by it's absence. I'm sure your only interest is in a fair and accurate article. Fainites 20:42, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
Don't understand your comment about user names. When have I ever not used it? Occasionally my computer asks me to sign in again but I think I've always picked up on that. Otherwise, still awaiting decent sources with eager anticipation and interest :) Fainites 21:29, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
Riveting, but not a decent source for saying NLP is a LGAT. Fainites 09:51, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
Presumably stating that neither Singer nor Langone etc name NLP as a LGAT would be fine then? And we don't have substantial research reviews. Compendiums can rarely be good primary sources. Their entries should be based on primary sources. What is Carrolls primary source? Or are you suggesting someone can be considered authoritative on about 250 different topics? Fainites 21:29, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
You two have been discussing this subject for ages now, and are both not being productive. I propose the following:
Do not worry about the other party editing the information on the subject unilaterally. A large number of active editors is watching this article, and will revert such a change swiftly. -- User:Krator ( t c) 22:17, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
Fine by me.
Fainites
18:50, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
Per the ongoing controversy as is plainly visible on this talk page, the article failed its good article review. See summary posted toward the top of this page. Wryspy 18:15, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
I have renominated this article, there has been no issues regarding any content disputes for five days. In addition, both editors involved in the prior dispute, which only basically involved one sentence of the entire article, have agreed to take a break from that issue. Smee 02:54, 18 May 2007 (UTC).
I don't think the article needs to be on hold perhaps for what i'm asking, but i'm not getting the idea from this article of what exactly LGAT is actually for. It just says in the lead that its used in group therapy and stuff like that, without saying whether or not its just used in therapy for almost anything and everything, or more prominently for specific things. I might not be reading it right, (it's a bit late where I am right now) but while the article seems pretty good at describing what LGAT is, I don't really like how it doesn't seem to say specifically what LGAT is used for, group therapy could mean many things. Homestarmy 02:36, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
I've come across a few problems in this article, and though I don't think any of them are hard to fix, i'd probably get it wrong if I tried fixing some of the stuff myself. (Psycology isn't something i'm big on...) I'm putting the article on hold for now, here's the problems as I see them:
And that's all i've got. Homestarmy 20:22, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
Pretty good work with the fixes, although I still see a few problems with some of the fixes, more than enough has been done for me to grant this article GA status, i'm no perfectionist. I'm just speaking from the diff and what I saw in the corrections, but DuMerton seems to of been inserted in the first line of "definition" without being introduced, it looks like you captialized EST in its first mention without capitalizing it again in the paragraph below, and on the "psycological dynamics" of LGAT thing, what I was trying to get across was that the sentence doesn't say what the dynamics are a part of, (namely, LGAT) not that it isn't attributed correctly to someone. For going towareds FA status, I recommend trying to avoid talking about individual books without justifying very explicitly in the article that the books are the absolute only and best sources for this subject, i've noticed that people in science related articles tend to get real suspicious about using individual textbooks or something, some weird idea that its advertising, I don't really buy that argument at all, but FA reviewers might. Doing the same thing with all the academics named in the article would probably be helpful as well. Homestarmy 02:27, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
... for formatting the "books" section. It looks better. Yours, Smee 10:35, 26 May 2007 (UTC).
Removed unrelated image. People in the photo are most definitively not in such activity and thus misleading. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 01:32, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
Images are always a welcome addition to an article, and as I said, the one about yoga, may be useful. Main concern is about a photo of a conference starting ceremony audience, that is totally unrelated to this article. It fails WP:V and all content in Wikipedia articles need to conform, not just text. You can check that by asking at WP:V talk. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:38, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
Should we add {{ Education}} and {{ Emotion}} as well? Don't think so. A much better device would be the use of a "See also" section in which suitable articles for further exploration, that have not yet been wikilinked from the article's text could be added. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 21:26, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
Dispute about the appropriateness to add to this article two templates {{ Cults}} and {{ Psychology}}
I believe the first question that needs to be asked is: "How are we using the term LGAT?"
Large Group Awareness Training - by the grammar of the words themselves, LGAT describes a methodology, not an organization.
On one hand, we define LGAT as a training methodology, where groups of people all attend a seminar training. On the other hand, we use LGAT as a label, to tag a Seminar Company as being an LGAT. In our article, we intermix the two usages, which I consider to be very inappropriate, misleading and the foundation for the rest of our problems.
The anti-cult editors deny that the term LGAT comes out of the anti-cult movement. And, at the same time, they use it predominantly as a pseudonum for cult. They tag companies as LGATs and include cult as often as possible.
In fact, I do not believe LGAT (the training methodology) has been referred to as a 'cult' (since a methodology can't be a cult), but, instead, some of the organizations themselves (which are called LGATs by the anti-cult community) have been referred to as cults (by the anti-cult community - not academics).
The primary example, and anti-cult banner carrier, Margret Singer, and her book "Cults in our midst", is featured in every LGAT article, where any remote link can be made to justify the inclusion. And, to reinforce the connection between LGAT and cult, the LEAD in this article uses the word "cult" twice. (Note: Lots of subtle psychological innuendo and implication are involved throughout the entire LGAT series).
If this article is about LGAT (methodology), and if LGAT is such a popular term amoung academics, why are we highlighting cult-claims about individual companies here in an article about methodology? The question is rhetorical, as the answer is obvious when one researches the development of these articles backwards, to discover who wrote them and why. (est atendees who believe Landmark and est are cults). This is significant as it explains why the articles are written the way they are, and why changing them into NPOV articles meets with such significant resistance.
If, as one of our editors claims, the phrase LGAT is used predominantly by psychologists, then I submit that LGAT and cult are unrelated and the cult template does not belong here, as it does not reflect the views any significant majority of academic sources.
If, on the other hand, the phrase LGAT is, in fact, a pseudonym for cult, then the template does belong here. And we should clearly state that LGAT is a pseudonym for cult. At the moment we are rather ambiguous and misleading.
Though some companies, who also happen to use LGAT methods, have been referred to as cults, I am unaware of any source (outside of the anti-cult community) which specifically say that LGAT methods are indicative of a cult.
Perhaps Smee could google up a dozen sources for us, that show a majority of academics and scholars, (who are not part of the anti-cult squad), associate the phrase LGAT with cult? Once those sources are located, I will be more than willing to read them and confirm their accuracy.
In summary, either LGAT is a pseudonym for cult or it isn't. In the discussions, we claim it isn't. In the articles we demonstrate, time and again, that it is.
I contend that the only legitimate use for LGAT is in describing a methodology for training. The methodology itself has nothing to do with 'cults' and therefore the 'cult' template does not belong. Furthermore the lead:
These group trainings have also been referred to as new age trainings,[1] mass marathon trainings[2] and white collar cults.[3]
is talking about the companies using LGAT methods, not the LGAT methods themselves and is not appropriate in this article. Our article is confusing LGAT as a methodology with LGAT as a label (like cult).
Lsi john 22:56, 28 May 2007 (UTC) Note: I had taken this off my watch list and was no longer editing it. However, since I have now been classified as an editor instead of a respondent, I have re-added this article. Lsi john 01:07, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
The links that the templates provide are highly relevant. LGAT is generally discussed in relation to cults due to the similar or exact nature of the phenomenon. I am still not sure of the exact rules around applying templates, but if the word cult can be added to the article with a link, that helps to explain something in the article. If the cult template is added, then in helps explain even more. The broader the range of relevant articles it leads to, the better it'll serve the reader and they'll have a more informed choice as to exactly where LGAT stands in relation to the concept of cult. This is an electronic medium and the better the network of relevant links, the more useful it becomes in terms of informing the reader. The same is true with the psychology template. Both Psychology and cult templates are useful primarily as links, and the reader gets to make up their own mind as to exactly how and how much they are related. They will already be able to see that they are related to a significant level due to cult and psychological methods being mentioned in the article. Leaving it at that would restrict the options of the reader. The templates help keep the options appropriately broad. Jeffrire 03:20, 29 May 2007 (UTC) P.S, as a suggested solution for Krator's comment above, I see no problem with putting off the application of these templates until they can be applied without undue conflict or edit warring from proponents of LGAT subjects. Jeffrire 08:02, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
I thank both Lsi John and Jeffrire for their comments, but I would appreciate non-involved editors to comment as that is the purpose of an RfC. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 04:07, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
I don't think either template is appropriate to the article. Selective use of see also entries is preferable per Jossi. GlassFET 15:26, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Smee, could you please explain why it is appropriate for you to edit another editor's comments but not appropriate for anyone else? When I do exactly the same thing you do, you revert my edits and complain. Two people (three including myself) have suggested you take a wiki break. You have already acknowledged that it is good advice. Perhaps you should take it. Lsi john 00:28, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
Smee why do you continue to edit user's comments? You complain when other people do it. Are you the self-appointed housekeeper for wikipedia? Please, either stop editing other user's comments, or stop complaining when other people do the same thing. Thanks. Lsi john 15:54, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
The idea that we would list where a term is referenced in other books and articles is unencyclopedic, adds nothing, and I will stop just short of saying it is silly. I am referring to:
The phrase Large Group Awareness Training has been used by psychologists,[8] psychiatrists and academics in academic journal peer reviewed articles[9][10] and psychology books and textbooks.[6][11][4][12][13]
Large Group Awareness Training is discussed and explained by psychologists in the textbook, Introduction to Psychology: Gateways to Mind and Behavior[14], in the Handbook of Group Psychotherapy[15] and in the book: Evaluating a Large Group Awareness Training.[16]
As an analogy I went over to redox to see where it informed me that the term was really truly used in chemistry TEXTBOOKS. The inclusion of that bit is just so much dross and links for links sake (dare I say "sources for sources sake"?) Make it go away. Please. It is unprofessional and amateurish (and that is redundant again). -- Justanother 00:36, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
LGAT is not mentioned in the article regarding white-collar-cults. Please do not reinclude this source. Lsi john 02:58, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
This text: Large Group Awareness Trainings often take place in relatively enclosed locations.[17] seems odd. Can someone provide page number on this book to clarify what this means? Thanks. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 01:47, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Smee, you know better than that. This is an article about LGAT (a methodology), which covers a large number of companies. Singling out ONE company, just to mention CULT is unacceptable and is not encyclopedic. Someone needs to please remove that. I can't right now, as I believe I'm close to 3 reverts here and do not want to edit war. Lsi john 03:56, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
This is not a psychological term. Simply because a psychologist used it, does not make it a psychological term. This is not only Original Research, but is incorrect. Lsi john 04:11, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Nuff said. Smee 04:16, 30 May 2007 (UTC).
Yes, and I bet those books had LOTS of words and phrases that were not considered PSYCHOLOGICAL TERMS. You are doing Original Research and you are edit warring. Please stop. Lsi john 04:29, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Is there anything I can edit here that you won't revert? Even my templates get reverted? That {{originalresearch}} template needs to be there. All you had to do was point out that it needed |section added. You just want to revert everything and it grows old. Lsi john 04:27, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Use of the word "psychological" in describing the term Large Group Awareness Training. 05:22, 30 May 2007 (UTC).
Uninvolved editors, please note that this article is about LGAT which is a methodology used by seminar companies to provide personal growth training. LGAT does not need to be 'built up' and 'legitimized' and the article does not need to be 'fluffed'. Krator has also expressed the same view previously. Lsi john 05:41, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
From my reading of those sources its definitely a term used in psychology. But its also used in cultic studies, and in books on pseudoscience and skepticism. I think the term could simply be described as being used primarily by psychology, cultic studies, and scientific skepticism. Any relevant links that help to explain why it is used by those sources will be helpful, including appropriate templates and so on. Jeffrire 10:17, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
To me it's clear that the attempt to attach the descriptor "psychological" is no more than a ploy to confer a veneer of respectability to a bunch of confused thinking and fractured logic which has no serious claim to scientific credibility.
Is there even a succinct, unambiguous, generally agreed definition?
The "Definition" section of the article tells us:
Great! So anything that meets these criteria is an LGAT then? And conversely the only conclusions that we can reliably draw about anything that is so categorised is that it teaches simple things that are often overlooked, and that it takes place over several days?
Quite apart from the tortured grammar, what does this even mean? How can "a psychological term used to describe trainings" be "compared to certain principles"? And is the "idea that people can change their lives by interpreting the way they view external circumstances." an essential feature, or one that only applies to some of them? And if not essential, why is this in the 'Definition' section?
So what? And if one of the trainings that met the above criteria were held on a campsite it wouldn't count?
Sounds entirely commendable to me, but what's the connection with the defining characteristics above? Or is this an additional requirement? Or do these "issues related to a desire" follow automatically from learning "simple, often overlooked" things?
Again seems reasonable, but what's the relationship to previous definitions?
So how does this help us who haven't done any of these programs (and now can't since they haven't been running for decades)? And which characteristics of them are definitive, and which incidental?
Good! So what did he say?
Later on in the article we find an entire section entitled 'Compared to Cults'. ??? Excuse me, but what's the connection between the definitions above and cults? Or might this give a clue to an agenda being pursued here? DaveApter 10:30, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
I will agree with the above comment. I don't think one can use the term psychological for LGAT. For example, it is not a term found in the standard text on psychotherapy outcome reaearch, Bergin and Garfield's Handbook of Psychotherapy and Behavior Change 2003, NY: John Wiley. RalphLender talk 17:32, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
I would like us to develop a better lead to use when the page is unprotected. Here is my stab.
As used by some psychologists, psychiatrists, and academics, Large Group Awareness Training (or LGAT) refers to programs in the so-called human potential movement that claim to increase self-awareness and manifest positive personal changes in individuals' lives. [1] These programs have been compared to group therapy and religious revival meetings and have also been referred to as new age trainings, [2] mass marathon trainings [3] and white collar cults, [4] [5] though this latter term has been contested. [6] The trainings are usually run by non-psychologists and often involve more than two hundred people at a time. Though early materials described LGAT trainings as being of unusually long duration, more recent texts describe the training as lasting from a few hours to a few days. About a million Americans have attended LGAT seminars. [7]
Please edit it mercilessly. -- Justanother 22:41, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Large Group Awareness Training (or LGAT) refers to the training methods used by some companies, in what has been referred to as the human potential movement. By using the LGAT techniques, these companies claim to increase self-awareness and manifest positive personal changes in individuals' lives. [1]These programs have been compared to group therapy and religious revival meetings and have also been referred to as new age trainings,
[2] and mass marathon trainings
Usually run by non-psychologists, the courses often include more than two hundred people at a time. LGAT trainings have been said to be of an unusually long durations, though more recent reports cite the trainings as lasting from a few hours to a few days. About a million Americans have attended LGAT seminars. [7]
blah blah opinions differ about the effectiveness of these trainings with some claiming the changes from days to years, and others claiming that the techniques can be harmful?
(the last paragraph is 'my' wording and an example only. We need to find credible sourcing to use for real wording)
The white-collar-cult in one reference is tied to Landmark. In the other reference it is used in a murky way that does not lend itself well to a clear citation.
I do not believe that we should single out ONE company, to be included in the lead. Krator (or Jossi) said something similar to this in a previous comment. The lead should be Generic and General and cover the topic well, but not in specific detail.
If we want to have a section below on individual companies, then landmark will certainly be included.. and if it works out to tag the white-collar cult onto landmark, thats fine. But tying CULT to the lead in this article is inappropriate. IMO.
In deference to Smee's position, we can work in the psychologist stuff in the 2nd or 3rd paragraph of the lead. Lsi john 22:58, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
The above discussion itself demonstrates the complete confusion and wooly thinking that permeates the use of this term. Just in this paragraph, it has been suggested that LGAT refers to:
If there isn't even agreement on what sort of a thing it refers to, what hope is there of deciding whether any particular thing is an LGAT? And even if we could, what conclusions could we validly draw from the fact it is an LGAT?
So far as I can see this is a completely bogus categorisation whose main use is to facilitate completely bogus arguments of the following structure:
Even if there were reliable tests for deciding whether Y abd Y were indeed LGATs (which there aren't), the inference would be logically bankrupt because the conclusion doesn't follow from the premises, eg:
An meanwhile can anyone point us to an actual definition? Because if not, this article hasn't actually even got a subject to discuss. DaveApter 09:04, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Dave,
In some respects I agree. And in some respects, I'd rather try to steer a speeding, and out of control, semi safely to an emergency lane, than to stand in front of it, and either deny it exists or try to stop it with my bare hands. If you haven't already, take a moment to read my userpage essay on LGAT and wikipedia.
All 'strict sourcing' aside. All 'anti-cult' rhetoric aside. All 'POV authors (and editors)' aside. The term (phrase) has been used, and repeated, enough times, that it has some (at least low level) legitimacy. It's our job to sort through the rhetoric and biased sources, and find out what the true (and scientifically accepted?) meaning is, and then write an article which reflects that.
I agree, saying 'is used by psychologists' is inappropriate for several reasons.
Whether or not such a statement is accurate, isn't relevant, as it serves only to self-legitimize the term through OR. It doesn't give any view of the context in which the term is actually used by those sources and is, therefore, inappropriate.
Also, keep in mind that compromise will be required by all parties. I don't really 'know' what the human potential movement is, but in this article it doesn't sound scary and it doesn't sound cultish. To me, it sounds like an upwelling of people who want to find their potential, which sounds like a good thing to me. Furthermore, if WP:RS equated LGAT to HPM, then why not put it in the article? You can count it as a Good-Faith concession and part of your compromise. If the HPM article reflects an incorrect definition of HPM, then that can be addressed in its turn.
In general, LGAT is used by anti-cult propagandists in place of the word cult. Ok, so what. They've been successful and now it has been used a couple times by legitimate people and aparently by some of the companies themselves. So, lets focus on finding out how the legitimate community defines it. A solid scientific definition (or even an unsolid one) will certainly trump the anti-cult 'defined by example'.
The article is here, and it isn't going away. There are far too many (reliable) anti-cult propraganda sources using the phrase to be able to argue that it isn't legitimate. Rather than trying to stop the semi, lets make the article as accurate and as neutral as possible. I'm much more concerned about having someone improperly slip white collar cult propaganda into the lead (and thus cult into the definition), than I am in having human potential movement there. Lsi john 13:56, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Dave, if we agree on those then we have a basic justification for an article. All that is left is ensuring that the writing of it complies with WP:V and WP:NPOV. Ready to start? -- Justanother 14:29, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Since this version, the article's already gone down from (44) citations to (39). Most intriguing. Smee 05:41, 3 June 2007 (UTC).
The exact text:
Training seminars are a fixture of modern business. Sales motivation "congresses" and other seminars are used to build communication skills and success techniques. Some of these fall into a category known as Large Group Awareness Training (LGAT) using a methodology which some label that of a white-collar cult. Fortune 500 companies and individuals shell out millions each year to motivational gurus who use a tested five day formula to guide them to higher performance and personal power. While some attendees become lifelong disciples for the method, others object to the highly confrontational and disturbing tactics that they are asked to endure. highly experienced facilitators use crowd dynamics as social prof that the "life changing" tactics are valid, but some delegates have found themselves needing psychiatric care by the fourth day.
First, his claim related to white-collar cults is unclear, at best. It appears that he is saying that some group(s), that use a methodology (unspecified), which places them in a category (LGAT) (undefined), have been referred to as white-collar-cults by some persons (unknown). He then, later on the next page, cites the skeptic's dictionary for a definition of LGAT programs. But there is no indication that the persons (unknown) that he cites as using the term white-collar-cults used the same definition.
Second, his entire paragraph is clearly POV and biased. Saying 'some attendees become lifelong disciples for the method' is a bit suggestive. Then 'others object to the highly confrontational and disturbing tactics' is over the top. Others might object to 'what they perceive as...', but declaring that 'all LGATS use highly confrontational and disturbing tactics that members are asked to endure' is an unsupported opinion of this author.
Therefore, I will not object to some form of this being included, but I cannot accept it as it was worded recently. And, I'm not sure what wording I would accept, given the vague, leading, prejudicial POV and invalid nature of the paragraph being cited. If I could have come up with something to include in our article, as a compromise, I would have.
And, equally important, he does not provide a definition for a "white-collar-cult" and he doesn't provide references or sources for a definition or who has used the term. Including the word 'cult' in any article, without a good (and restrictive) definition, is unacceptable.
Lsi john 12:08, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
First, tell us their definition for White-Collar-Cult. Then provide the sources they are citing. They are not saying that anything is a white-collar-cult, they are citing sources as saying it. What are their sources? Where are their citations? This is not verifiable and cannot be included. Lsi john 04:32, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
If you wish to continue removing NPOV sourced material, I will not revert that either. Your pov pushing is going strong tonight. I will now stop editing at wiki and take a break, as you seem intent on edit warring again. As you say "happy editing". Lsi john 05:07, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
The article page have in it's entirety become privately saved for anti-cult purposes. Said: Rursus ☺ ★ 08:39, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
This one edit removed (4) reputable citations from the article. The lead/intro before this was much better. It was worked on initially not by myself, but primarily was reworked by User:Krator. See Talk:Large_Group_Awareness_Training#Krator.27s_re-work_of_the_LEAD.... Smee 13:41, 4 June 2007 (UTC).
Although there is a brief mention of psychotic episodes connected to LGATS that problem is not explored. Those episodes are the most important outcome to explain what actually happens to cause the effects from LGATS.
The life changing outcomes are achieved through the accidental, subliminal, application of operant conditioning
Landmark Education now warns potential participants about the psychotic outcomes of their seminar, The Forum. They don't understand the cause. They blame previous mental illness problems but admit there are cases where there had been no previous mental problems.
What the LGATS are doing to achieve the psychiatric symptoms as well as the 'believed to be positive' outcomes is replicating the "special circumstances" for Subliminal Distraction exposure. -- If they turned off the lights in the lecture room there would be no beneficial outcome from the seminar and no psychotic episodes.
There have been investigations and papers’ written going back to 1977 attempting to find the cause of these mental breaks. Every one performing that research has been missing a small piece of information. That is the accidental 1960’s discovery of a 'conflict in the physiology of sight' capable of causing a mental break.
Office workers using the first prototypes of close-spaced workstations had the same mental breaks in the 1960's. Psychologists called in to solve the problem found that constant triggering of the Startle Reflex caused the effect. The Cubicle was designed to deal with a normal feature of physiology and the mental breaks stopped after 1968.
The office Cubicle has been used for forty years to prevent these events in business offices.
http://visionandpsychosis.net/a_demonstration_you_can_do.htm
http://visionandpsychosis.net/Brainwashing_Mindcontrol.htm
http://visionandpsychosis.net/EST_Werner_Erhard.htm
I am the copyright holder for this material. L K Tucker 68.158.193.172 00:05, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
In order to uphold the quality of Wikipedia:Good articles, all articles listed as Good articles are being reviewed against the GA criteria as part of the GA project quality task force. While all the hard work that has gone into this article is appreciated, unfortunately, as of February 14, 2009, this article fails to satisfy the criteria, as detailed below. For that reason, the article has been delisted from WP:GA. However, if improvements are made bringing the article up to standards, the article may be nominated at WP:GAN. If you feel this decision has been made in error, you may seek remediation at WP:GAR.
-- Malleus Fatuorum 17:25, 14 February 2009 (UTC)
The article contains the claim "Controversial tactics sometimes used by LGAT groups have included physical violence, isolation, entrapment, brainwashing, and sexual experiences.[25]". In this case, the cite does not substantiate the claim in the article. Thus the cite should be removed, as it doesn't support the claim. And subsequently, the claim itself should be removed as unsupported and misleading.
The cited work is: Weir, D., An Odyssey of Sexual/Gender Evolution: An Autoethnographical Study of the United States from the 1950s to the Present, April 2002. It's a PhD Dissertation written in 2002. The abstract of the work describes the work as "an autoethnographical narrative and historical review of the changes in the associations with the concepts of femininity and masculinity" which "examines the question of there being a sexual/gender revolution in the United States during the past fifty years" (page 5). The only mention of LGATs in the work occurs on page 47, which discusses LGATs (and specifically EST) in the context of the broader Human Potential Movement of the 1970s. The paragraph in question reads: "Although Erhard adamantly denied that the est enlightenment was associated with any religious intent, many of the other therapy programs of the 1970s did evolve into religions and cults “under the authoritarian control of the charismatic founder” (Anthony et al, p. 13), such as Synanon, Scientology, and psychosynthesis. (pp. 11-17.) The groups’ activities sometimes involved physical violence, isolation, entrapment, brainwashing, and sexual experiences." From this sentence, EST is explicitly excluded, and the 3 examples provided were not LGATs at all, but rather simply part of the broader discussion of the "Human Potential Movement" at large. Furthermore, this work fails to provide any additional detail or evidence to support the claim of physical violence, sexual experiences, etc.. One possible reason for the lack of evidence is the fact that the claim wasn't the main focus of the work, or even of the paragraph itself. Because the cite does not actually support the claim in the article, it should be removed.
Based on this finding, I'm removing the cite as it doesn't support the claim, and removing the claim itself from the article as unsupported and misleading. Anyone wishing to reinsert the claim should provide a cite which more directly supports the assertions made.
Dougbateman ( talk) 00:22, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
In the section Singer there's this sentence with what looks like a quotation mark that shouldn't be there (second last paragraph): The book mentions Erhard Seminars Training and its derivatives such as the Forum, "Lifespring, Actualizations, MSIA/Insight and PSI Seminars.[33]
Also, the very last section, ICSA, with its one sentence seems slightly unclear to me. The sentence goes like this: "The International Cultic Studies Association has grouped some Large Group Awareness Training organizations together with research about them."
Anyway, this article was highly interesting to read. Thanks for putting it together, all you who put it together! :-) Contributions/62.16.190.104 ( talk) 08:34, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
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Reading this article and looking at the sources, it seems like a great deal of it if not most come from anti-cult group literature. Aside from being rather difficult to read, it seems to be a bit of a coat rack for the critical point of view. Elmmapleoakpine ( talk) 21:55, 5 July 2016 (UTC)
Absolutely. It is also very supportive of modern religions, most of which use LGAT techniques - both in recruitment style and rhetoric - and yet the article draws no parallels. http://www.biographyonline.net/spiritual/articles/difference-religion-cult.html http://www.hopesandfears.com/hopes/now/question/216321-religion-or-cult
It's hard to believe the most important criticism of LGAT is left out: That after the participants stops, most experience the whole thing to fade away. Almost all insider articles end with this at the end. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 104.182.178.9 ( talk) 20:43, 27 April 2015
This may be biased by the fact that "insiders who write articles" are of a particular stripe. I "stopped" an LGAT that participated only very briefly in, and have benefited from, primarily, recognizing and being more skillful at the art of social manipulation. This is not an "side effect". At the particular LGAT I was in, it was the intended effect. And in my career as an independent businessman, and as a marketing consultant, it has been extremely valuable. Indeed, I suspect that the modern trend of cult-like corporate culture was inspired by LGAT techniques.
This article is extremely negative. Many LGATs are far less aggressive in their manipulation, needing no deprivation of food, or hypnosis to succeed in their message. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.172.169.86 ( talk) 13:23, 13 July 2016 (UTC)
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it is located in the "Definitions of LGAT" section and does not seem to be connected in any way to the text preceeding it, nor the text following it. i think it is a piece of garbage/noise, not being relevant, completely devoid of information. unless it is possible to expand it with something that connects it to the rest of the article and puts it in context, it should be deleted.
"In Consumer Research: Postcards from the edge, discussing behavioral and economic studies, the authors contrasted the "enclosed locations" used with Large Group Awareness Trainings with the "relatively open" environment of a "variety store".[6]" 89.134.199.32 ( talk) 12:34, 30 June 2018 (UTC).
{{
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was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 |
This article failed good article nomination. This is how the article, as of May 13, 2007, compares against the six good article criteria:
1. Well written?: Yes.
2. Factually accurate?: Apparently.
3. Broad in coverage?: Yes.
4. Neutral point of view?: Generally.
5. Article stability? No. Article has an ongoing edit/flame war that should die and stay dead for some time before resubmitting.
6. Images?: Yes.
If you feel that this review is in error, feel free to take it to a GA review. Thank you for your work so far. Wryspy 18:04, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
-- User:Krator ( t c) 14:12, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
PS: My intention with the quotefarm tag is not related to neutrality or (N)POV, or alleged bias. It has to do with the fact that it is a badly written article that doesn't read like an encyclopaedia article.
The work in progress tag has been added, and I will paraphrase some of the quotations as suggested above. Please respect. Smee 07:55, 18 April 2007 (UTC).
Please participate HERE before you simply re-write sections. Lets obtain a concensus so that we do not end up constantly reverting things. Please participate in group discussions and planning. Lets collaberate on the articles instead of making unilateral edits. Lsi john 15:39, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
Hi again. Actually the main source (the book) is not self published. Its published by John Wiley & Sons Inc (30 Aug 2003) [2] Jeffrire 06:04, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
Interestingly enough, I don't recall Skeptics dictionary referring to NLP as a LGAT when I looked at it some months ago. It may be that my memory is at fault, or maybe he got it off Wiki. The blind leading the blind? Fainites 21:28, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
Re your Eisner discussion above, actually Eisner misquoted Sharpley and Elich. Elich (who did a study which concluded that PRS was rubbish) said 'NLP has achieved something akin to cult status when it may be nothing more than a psychological fad" (p625), not was 'akin to a cult'. Sharpley quoted Elich in his major reviews in 84 and 87. Eisner has misquoted both. Sharpley and Elich are both experimental psychologists who were dealing with scientific research on NLP's theoretical underpinnings and its usefulness or otherwise in therapy. Neither scientific paper is in anyway about whether NLP is a cult or not although NLP is pretty much slated in many other ways. I can let you have the papers if you wish to see them. Sharpley is quoted extensively on the NLP page. Fainites 20:48, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
Fainties, when I quote Eisner, I am giving his view. Eisner wrote a long section on NLP and its not at all positive. He seems to be talking about NLP as if its some sort of cult and he mentions it in the same section as his discussion of LGATs. He doesn't make exhaustive lists of LGATs but he does talk about LGATs and mentions their attributes, which NLP also shares. I think its extemely obvious that NLP is taught in LGAT format and can be considered a kind of LGAT. There's information about Tony Robbins teaching a type of NLP and Tony Robbins clearly teaches in LGATs according to source. I havn't kept the sources there because they are abundant. NLP seems to be mentioned in several books about cults within the LGAT description. I'll go back to the sources and make sure that NLP is properly sourced as an LGAT. Jeffrire 02:43, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
Skeptics dictionary on the web is a reputable source. Carroll seems to me to be highly reputable as an expert. He is running that particular website so the information is reputable. When he says NLP is an LGAT I think he's stating the obvious. Just looking at the adverts for NLP is convincing enough. Carroll's website is fine even on its own. It satisfies WP:RS already, and other RS sources have been kindly supplied. Jeffrire 02:51, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
Being criticised, or even being a crap therapy, (which is what the psych criticism is about) doesn't make it a cult. Eisner can't 'seem' to be calling NLP a cult or a LGAT. Either he is or he isn't. If you've finally found some reputable sources Headley, then by all means show us them. I don't buy this 'I haven't kept the sources because they're abundant'. Fainites 21:16, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
Its easy, just do a web search. There are enough already. I found Elich and I was right. NLP it treated with quite some derision. Btw, who's Headley? Jeffrire 04:08, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
Ypu claimed Elich said it was a cult. Give us the quote! But you won't will you. You never do. As for who's Headley, you know very well but for the attention of others see [ [3]]. Fainites 20:36, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
Heres a full quote from Sharpley (1987) if anyones interested. "If it is true that there are data in the clinical files of proponents of NLP that support it in a way different from the experimental data reviewed, then these need to be published and examined according to the traditional methodological yardsticks of experimental and evaluative literature. Until that time the enquirer in this field may be forgiven for accepting the conclusion of Elich et al (1985) "NLP has achieved something akin to cult status when it may be nothing more than a psychological fad" (p625)". It was a literature review of a total of 44 studies on preferred representational systems, of which Elich et al's was one on eye movements as indicators of mental imagery. All very arcane I know, but this is within the field of experimental psychology, not cults and the like. Fainites 22:39, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
In the opening paragraph we say:
"is a phrase used to describe commercial trainings of a period of days which include various techniques from group therapy and the human potential movement but are usually run by non-psychologists"
I have several questions/issues with the wording.
The way its worded now seems to violate WP:OR. If anyone has the answers to these questions, I would like to know. Thanks. Lsi john 21:37, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
"In 1989 researchers from the University of Connecticut received the "National Consultants to Management Award" from the American Psychological Association, for their study: Evaluating a Large Group Awareness Training[9]."
I have altered the sentence on Singer and Partidge as it could have created a misleading impression that Singer called NLP a LGAT. Fainites 16:37, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
Also, the only mention of NLP in Cults in our Midst is as follows;
In the circumstances, the prominence given to NLP when citing Singer in your techniques section seems unjustified. Unless your cite is from some other Singer writing, but it is not clear from the ref given. Fainites 16:45, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
On further examination it seems your only Singer ref. is 'Cults in our Midst' so I have inserted a more accurate version of what is said. Fainites 20:32, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
The section comes from a chapter called Intruding into the Workplace in a book called Cults In Our Midst. It makes an in depth discussion of LGATs and calls them "training programs" then there is a section about "the problems of being transformed at work" and here it is in full:
"Problems with Being "Transformed" at Work"
"The following cases illustrate some of what has happened when employers sent employees to certain - training programs. In part of these cases, the employees sought redress because they felt they had been coerced by their employers to attend and/or had been harmed by the programs.
Aside from complaining that they were being put through programs tantamount to a forced religious conversion, employees also objected to specific techniques being used: meditation, neurolinguistic programming, biofeedback, self-hypnosis, bizarre relaxation techniques, mind control, body touching, yoga, trance inductions, visualization, and in some cases, intense confrontational sessions akin to the "attack" therapy methods that emerged in the 1960s and 1970s.
From a tire factory in Albany, Georgia, to a car dealership in Tacoma, Washington, workers began to put up resistance to the imposition of religious values and the intense influence techniques used in the workplace training programs."
This is all good information for LGAT related articles. The second section could be quoted in full. The rest of it could be put into paraphrasing, using keywords like coerced, harmed, imposition of religious values and influence techniques.
Jeffrire
03:08, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
I've put the list of techniques into the article. Am I right in thinking that LGATs almost invariably have some kind of religious or spiritual content? Fainites 08:20, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
I'm perfectly happy with reliable sources appearing. But if you think Singer in Cults in Our Midst' describes or names NLP as a LGAT, then I suggest you read it again. The sentence discussed above is the only mention of NLP in the whole book. This can hardly be carelessness on Singers part. She slates NLP totally in her book 'Crazy Therapies', but not for being a LGAT or a cult. Just for being an overblown, scientifically unvalidated crap 'therapy'. Similarly Langone has written about NLP being used by cults. (You can find this on the NLP page) but nowhere does he state that in his opinion NLP is a cult. Being a LGAT and being used by some LGATs are two very different things. It is a perjorative term that should not be bandied around lightly by reference to any paragraph that happens to have the words 'NLP' and 'LGAT' in it, however peripheral the connection. Do I take it that you now propose on that basis to also call biofeedback, self hypnosis, yoga and visualization (a common techniques in many mainstream therapies) LGATs? After all, they're all in Singers list. As for the rest of your above paragraph, if you say Singer groups NLP with est, Landmark, and Scientology, then give us the full quote and context please. As for the religious association, NLP is criticsed as a New Age therapy, not religion. Again, you can see that criticism on the NLP page. Did you want to see the Sharpley and Elich papers by the way? Fainites 11:14, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
a) New Age also refers to a culture and covers many things, not all religious b) if you're interested in what Sharpley and Elich say, I have already offered to e-mail you the papers. Or aren't you interested in what they actually say? Your supposition as to what they say is in fact quite wrong. c)The Skeptics website is not the same as the book d) if it's such an obvious fact that NLP is a LGAT, how come all the major commentators appear to have missed it? e) if you find a decent source, then good for you, but so far this looks like just a POV push. Fainites 19:59, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
Quite. NLP is used a huge variety of ways, undoubtedly including some LGATs and some cults. But it could never be one. It has no central spiritual or religious philosophy, no organisation, no leader and no aim. The main proponents can't even agree on it. Fainites 20:27, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
Yes Krator. I don't think anyone is pushing the line that "NLP is LGAT". The main argument is around whether the sources are sufficient for the view that NLP is related to LGATs in relation to this article. The skeptics website itself may be insufficient, but the book is solid. Of course its my view that NLP is definitely run as a LGAT by the look of the providers on the web. Just my POV. I only want to present reliable sources that support the view NLP is in the category of LGAT, associated with LGATS, and used within other LGATs and cults. But right now I prefer to let things cool off and do some more solid research. I am more interested in properly sourcing LGAT information as a whole rather than getting into disputes. Jeffrire 12:26, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
On the contrary, one only has to read what you said about Singer above to see that you are pushing the view that NLP is a LGAT, basically because it's mentioned in the same book! How many times does this point have to be made? Singer and Langone do not describe NLP as a LGAT. Nor as far as I am aware does any other major investigator or commentator. The only citation of any note is Partridge and that is a passing reference. Skeptics Dictionaru is fine as a secondary source, but hardly a primary source. He cites no sources for his assertion. No compendium can be considered a primary source if it is not based on primary sources. Nobody as far as I am aware disputes that NLP is used by LGATs and cults.I don't think this back door approach is going to work Headley. Fainites 20:32, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
Sorry Krator. It's just that we've been through all this so many times on the NLP page already. Fainites 22:22, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
I have just reverted an anon related to this topic, who deleted one of the references to neuro-linguistic programming on this article. My suspicion (and hope) is that this is one of the involved editors who simply forgot to log in. As an addition to my edit summary, I want to invite that user to summarize the debate here that has, according to his edit summary, taken place on the talk page of another article. -- User:Krator ( t c) 23:08, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
Actually there's nothing wrong with one source of it's authoritative and not just a passing reference or a superficial compendium but nobody as yet has produced one. If NLP were a LGAT sources would surely not be so difficult to find and so thin when produced. It might be more fruitful to look for an example of NLP taught in LGAT form by a particular operater or company if there is a reliable source. For the reasons already given above (by Krator), trying to say NLP is LGAT is a bit like trying to say pain relief is aspirin. Tony Robbins could be an example though. Does anyone have an authoritive source to say what he does is LGATs? He's pretty much slated by Salerno in SHAM but as a lifestyle guru I think. However, he does seem to do the week long, mass audience thing. Fainites 22:13, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
The article lead has been reworked, to incorporate input from 3O as well as readability and flow.
Some information was moved to more appropriate sub-sections.
Lsi john 13:28, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
OK, then make your case, we can discuss, and anything useful may possibly be considered. Jeffrire 13:55, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
Jeffrire, there were no substantial substance changes in my revisions. I re-ordered some wording and believe that I improved readability. The opening lead is now less filled with quotes per Krator's comments. The opening lead now gives a brief overview, supported by documented citations later. All citations remained intact. There was no reason to fully revert my edits.
Each of my edits was made separately. There was not one-single major rewrite.
Is it your request, and promise, to discuss every edit prior to making them? I am willing to agree to that, if it is your proposal and you are going to follow it also.
If there is an objection to my revisions, why not indicate here what they are? No citations were removed, only relocated.
I actually intended for my edits to bring a balance and blend. There are many things that remain in the article that I would remove, if I allowed myself to be biased in the editing.
Lsi john 17:12, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
(relocated from user talk page)
Krator, was it your intention that your 3O comment be used as justification for a major revert on the entire series of edits?
Also, would you be so kind as to give feedback on the current version of the article lead (after my edits) as compared to the version prior to them.
Thank you. Lsi john 17:27, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
"NLP is new age. That makes it religious or quasi religious just the same as est, EMIN, Scientology and the rest. I'm sure Sharpley and Elich treat NLP as lot of pseudoscientific "magical thinking" rubbish and that will be consistent with other cultlike pseudoscientific new age developments. I admit so far the Skeptics Dictionary web page needs further support but the book is bound to be the same as the website. Its such an obvious fact that NLP is a lgat. Jeffrire 13:09, 27 April 2007 (UTC)"
"Hi Smee. I am working on collecting more info on subjects that help the reader understand about LGATs. Do you have any candidate subjects for the category? I heard EMIN was a LGAT, and there are others. Jeffrire 13:13, 27 April 2007 (UTC)"
Some things I noticed while reading the current state of the article: Note, when replying, please make a subsection here instead of inserting your comment with colons into this note.
-- User:Krator ( t c) 20:41, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
I agree, this should be above analysys. However, the current techniques section is very wordy and difficult to read. After a quick reading, it does not appear to actually give specific techniques, but seems rather to give more of an analysys and commentary. I believe most of the verbiage in the current techniques section should be relocated to the analysys section.
If we have a techniques section, that section should only provide specific techniques used, without any analysys, commentary or conclusions. Analysys should be included in the analysys section.
As this would be extensive, I will wait for comments in order to get a group consensus before we do any major work to this section. Lsi john 14:09, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
I agree. I would be willing to take a shot at re-ordering, if there is a mutual agreement from the other editors.
I would not remove any content. I would not remove any citations. I would simply re-order the article in a more logical fashion for the reader.
Let me know. Lsi john 20:56, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
This has always seemed sort of out-of-place. Perhaps it can be incorporated into another section during the re-ordering. Lsi john 20:56, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
Personally, I agree. Although it is abbreviated as LGAT, my experience of the usage here, is an underlying repetition of LGAT, rather than a constructive use. I admit that I also use LGAT for speed, rather than typing out the lengthy Large Group Awareness Training verbiage.
If the focus of the article is about information, then softening the language with the trainings or similar phrase, will enhance readability without removing any substance.
If the objective is to reinforce LGAT in the reader's mind, then there may be objections to reducing the number of times its repeated.
Lsi john 20:56, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
I have removed duplicate entries that also appeared in cited material and books. Actually everything that was in the See Also section was already referenced somewhere else in the article. I left the "List of LGAT" as it seemed directly relevant and worth having as a specific entry. Lsi john 21:19, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
I have cleaned up the categories one-by-one with a comment on why each was removed. I am open to discussion about putting some back, however I do not believe that I removed any which actually apply to this article. Lsi john 21:19, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
Though it has a ways to go to deal with some of the remarks (above), I feel the article is already much improved. Krator, thank you for the time you are spending to help with this article. Lsi john 21:34, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
Krator, could you have a peek at the List of Large Group Awareness Training organizations and methodologies opening Lead and give feedback? It was two or three paragraphs of overlapping and not very coherent wording that seemed to be trying to cram too much into two little space.
Thanks. Lsi john 23:42, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
Were made without consensus, and were highly inappropriate. (In my opinion and the opinion of others, apparently.) And images of books should appear in the article about the book themselves, and in general not in other articles, as per fair use. Smee 05:39, 28 April 2007 (UTC).
Krator, this is exactly what I've been dealing with. We had the makings of a very neutral and well written article, with NO cited sources removed. And Smee comes in and reverts it all, claiming restore cited sources, when no cited sources were removed. Its virtually impossible to get anything well written or balanced when she continues to do this. Lsi john 11:40, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
Smee, I was ready to pull the unbalanced tag off of the article. It is very upsetting to come in and see that hours of work were reverted for no reason. No sources were removed. Things were re-arranged and sorted out. A few sentences were reworded for grammar and clarity. We worked very hard to maintain the information that was in the article and not remove anything significant and not remove any cited sources. Your revert actions are insulting to me personally. The message you sent me is that Lsi_john is incapable of editing this article. And so you reverted to your copy and then proceeded to re-work the article with the ideas we had suggested by our hard work. Please show respect to your fellow editors and work from where they leave off. Lsi john 12:06, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
I worked hard getting all the citations for this article. There used to be (39) citations, now there are only 38. Please tell me what was removed and why. Smee 06:02, 29 April 2007 (UTC).
"All Wikipedia articles and other encyclopedic content must be written from a neutral point of view (NPOV), representing fairly and without bias all significant views (that have been published by reliable sources)."
Quit fighting over semantics and NPOV, and go and edit the article. -- User:Krator ( t c) 16:36, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
Some ideas for new content occured to me:
Feel free to add more. -- User:Krator ( t c) 17:10, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
...looks great, thanks! Smee 01:04, 30 April 2007 (UTC).
Yes its very readable. I would suggest something to work on long term though. I think it could include what LGAT organizers promise from the event (improved lifestyle etc) and also include the criticism or concern by psychologists. Jeffrire 01:53, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
Smee, yes, there are suggestions above. In general, the feeling was that the techniques section doesn't really describe techniques. It generally gives evaluations and opinions. http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Talk:Large_Group_Awareness_Training§ion=7#Things_to_work.2Fthink_with
I would have started working on it, but I know that you prefer to make the major edits and so I waited for you. If we are going to have a techniques section, I believe it should strictly be about techniques, without an assessments, evaluations or opinions about their value or worth. There is already a section for assessments, evaluations and opinions. Lsi john 13:16, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
Which Langone book is that Jeffrire? Is that the article on LGATs here or is the one on rescuing people from cults, or is there another one? Fainites 22:26, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
If so, Amazon have a 'look inside this book' function on that one which is quite handy. Fainites 22:29, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
This is the LGAT page Jeffrire. I don't see any mention of LGATs in Recovery from Cults. His statement about the use of NLP by aggressive cults is already included in the NLP article with a link to the book. Fainites 09:06, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
Yes we have had this discussion before and predict it will occur many times again. As ever, I await decent sources with interest :) Fainites 14:59, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
Nobody has yet produced any major researchers or commentators who say NLP is a LGAT. In the notable researchers and commentators cited on the LGAT page, NLP is conspicuous by it's absence. I'm sure your only interest is in a fair and accurate article. Fainites 20:42, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
Don't understand your comment about user names. When have I ever not used it? Occasionally my computer asks me to sign in again but I think I've always picked up on that. Otherwise, still awaiting decent sources with eager anticipation and interest :) Fainites 21:29, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
Riveting, but not a decent source for saying NLP is a LGAT. Fainites 09:51, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
Presumably stating that neither Singer nor Langone etc name NLP as a LGAT would be fine then? And we don't have substantial research reviews. Compendiums can rarely be good primary sources. Their entries should be based on primary sources. What is Carrolls primary source? Or are you suggesting someone can be considered authoritative on about 250 different topics? Fainites 21:29, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
You two have been discussing this subject for ages now, and are both not being productive. I propose the following:
Do not worry about the other party editing the information on the subject unilaterally. A large number of active editors is watching this article, and will revert such a change swiftly. -- User:Krator ( t c) 22:17, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
Fine by me.
Fainites
18:50, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
Per the ongoing controversy as is plainly visible on this talk page, the article failed its good article review. See summary posted toward the top of this page. Wryspy 18:15, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
I have renominated this article, there has been no issues regarding any content disputes for five days. In addition, both editors involved in the prior dispute, which only basically involved one sentence of the entire article, have agreed to take a break from that issue. Smee 02:54, 18 May 2007 (UTC).
I don't think the article needs to be on hold perhaps for what i'm asking, but i'm not getting the idea from this article of what exactly LGAT is actually for. It just says in the lead that its used in group therapy and stuff like that, without saying whether or not its just used in therapy for almost anything and everything, or more prominently for specific things. I might not be reading it right, (it's a bit late where I am right now) but while the article seems pretty good at describing what LGAT is, I don't really like how it doesn't seem to say specifically what LGAT is used for, group therapy could mean many things. Homestarmy 02:36, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
I've come across a few problems in this article, and though I don't think any of them are hard to fix, i'd probably get it wrong if I tried fixing some of the stuff myself. (Psycology isn't something i'm big on...) I'm putting the article on hold for now, here's the problems as I see them:
And that's all i've got. Homestarmy 20:22, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
Pretty good work with the fixes, although I still see a few problems with some of the fixes, more than enough has been done for me to grant this article GA status, i'm no perfectionist. I'm just speaking from the diff and what I saw in the corrections, but DuMerton seems to of been inserted in the first line of "definition" without being introduced, it looks like you captialized EST in its first mention without capitalizing it again in the paragraph below, and on the "psycological dynamics" of LGAT thing, what I was trying to get across was that the sentence doesn't say what the dynamics are a part of, (namely, LGAT) not that it isn't attributed correctly to someone. For going towareds FA status, I recommend trying to avoid talking about individual books without justifying very explicitly in the article that the books are the absolute only and best sources for this subject, i've noticed that people in science related articles tend to get real suspicious about using individual textbooks or something, some weird idea that its advertising, I don't really buy that argument at all, but FA reviewers might. Doing the same thing with all the academics named in the article would probably be helpful as well. Homestarmy 02:27, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
... for formatting the "books" section. It looks better. Yours, Smee 10:35, 26 May 2007 (UTC).
Removed unrelated image. People in the photo are most definitively not in such activity and thus misleading. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 01:32, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
Images are always a welcome addition to an article, and as I said, the one about yoga, may be useful. Main concern is about a photo of a conference starting ceremony audience, that is totally unrelated to this article. It fails WP:V and all content in Wikipedia articles need to conform, not just text. You can check that by asking at WP:V talk. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:38, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
Should we add {{ Education}} and {{ Emotion}} as well? Don't think so. A much better device would be the use of a "See also" section in which suitable articles for further exploration, that have not yet been wikilinked from the article's text could be added. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 21:26, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
Dispute about the appropriateness to add to this article two templates {{ Cults}} and {{ Psychology}}
I believe the first question that needs to be asked is: "How are we using the term LGAT?"
Large Group Awareness Training - by the grammar of the words themselves, LGAT describes a methodology, not an organization.
On one hand, we define LGAT as a training methodology, where groups of people all attend a seminar training. On the other hand, we use LGAT as a label, to tag a Seminar Company as being an LGAT. In our article, we intermix the two usages, which I consider to be very inappropriate, misleading and the foundation for the rest of our problems.
The anti-cult editors deny that the term LGAT comes out of the anti-cult movement. And, at the same time, they use it predominantly as a pseudonum for cult. They tag companies as LGATs and include cult as often as possible.
In fact, I do not believe LGAT (the training methodology) has been referred to as a 'cult' (since a methodology can't be a cult), but, instead, some of the organizations themselves (which are called LGATs by the anti-cult community) have been referred to as cults (by the anti-cult community - not academics).
The primary example, and anti-cult banner carrier, Margret Singer, and her book "Cults in our midst", is featured in every LGAT article, where any remote link can be made to justify the inclusion. And, to reinforce the connection between LGAT and cult, the LEAD in this article uses the word "cult" twice. (Note: Lots of subtle psychological innuendo and implication are involved throughout the entire LGAT series).
If this article is about LGAT (methodology), and if LGAT is such a popular term amoung academics, why are we highlighting cult-claims about individual companies here in an article about methodology? The question is rhetorical, as the answer is obvious when one researches the development of these articles backwards, to discover who wrote them and why. (est atendees who believe Landmark and est are cults). This is significant as it explains why the articles are written the way they are, and why changing them into NPOV articles meets with such significant resistance.
If, as one of our editors claims, the phrase LGAT is used predominantly by psychologists, then I submit that LGAT and cult are unrelated and the cult template does not belong here, as it does not reflect the views any significant majority of academic sources.
If, on the other hand, the phrase LGAT is, in fact, a pseudonym for cult, then the template does belong here. And we should clearly state that LGAT is a pseudonym for cult. At the moment we are rather ambiguous and misleading.
Though some companies, who also happen to use LGAT methods, have been referred to as cults, I am unaware of any source (outside of the anti-cult community) which specifically say that LGAT methods are indicative of a cult.
Perhaps Smee could google up a dozen sources for us, that show a majority of academics and scholars, (who are not part of the anti-cult squad), associate the phrase LGAT with cult? Once those sources are located, I will be more than willing to read them and confirm their accuracy.
In summary, either LGAT is a pseudonym for cult or it isn't. In the discussions, we claim it isn't. In the articles we demonstrate, time and again, that it is.
I contend that the only legitimate use for LGAT is in describing a methodology for training. The methodology itself has nothing to do with 'cults' and therefore the 'cult' template does not belong. Furthermore the lead:
These group trainings have also been referred to as new age trainings,[1] mass marathon trainings[2] and white collar cults.[3]
is talking about the companies using LGAT methods, not the LGAT methods themselves and is not appropriate in this article. Our article is confusing LGAT as a methodology with LGAT as a label (like cult).
Lsi john 22:56, 28 May 2007 (UTC) Note: I had taken this off my watch list and was no longer editing it. However, since I have now been classified as an editor instead of a respondent, I have re-added this article. Lsi john 01:07, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
The links that the templates provide are highly relevant. LGAT is generally discussed in relation to cults due to the similar or exact nature of the phenomenon. I am still not sure of the exact rules around applying templates, but if the word cult can be added to the article with a link, that helps to explain something in the article. If the cult template is added, then in helps explain even more. The broader the range of relevant articles it leads to, the better it'll serve the reader and they'll have a more informed choice as to exactly where LGAT stands in relation to the concept of cult. This is an electronic medium and the better the network of relevant links, the more useful it becomes in terms of informing the reader. The same is true with the psychology template. Both Psychology and cult templates are useful primarily as links, and the reader gets to make up their own mind as to exactly how and how much they are related. They will already be able to see that they are related to a significant level due to cult and psychological methods being mentioned in the article. Leaving it at that would restrict the options of the reader. The templates help keep the options appropriately broad. Jeffrire 03:20, 29 May 2007 (UTC) P.S, as a suggested solution for Krator's comment above, I see no problem with putting off the application of these templates until they can be applied without undue conflict or edit warring from proponents of LGAT subjects. Jeffrire 08:02, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
I thank both Lsi John and Jeffrire for their comments, but I would appreciate non-involved editors to comment as that is the purpose of an RfC. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 04:07, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
I don't think either template is appropriate to the article. Selective use of see also entries is preferable per Jossi. GlassFET 15:26, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Smee, could you please explain why it is appropriate for you to edit another editor's comments but not appropriate for anyone else? When I do exactly the same thing you do, you revert my edits and complain. Two people (three including myself) have suggested you take a wiki break. You have already acknowledged that it is good advice. Perhaps you should take it. Lsi john 00:28, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
Smee why do you continue to edit user's comments? You complain when other people do it. Are you the self-appointed housekeeper for wikipedia? Please, either stop editing other user's comments, or stop complaining when other people do the same thing. Thanks. Lsi john 15:54, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
The idea that we would list where a term is referenced in other books and articles is unencyclopedic, adds nothing, and I will stop just short of saying it is silly. I am referring to:
The phrase Large Group Awareness Training has been used by psychologists,[8] psychiatrists and academics in academic journal peer reviewed articles[9][10] and psychology books and textbooks.[6][11][4][12][13]
Large Group Awareness Training is discussed and explained by psychologists in the textbook, Introduction to Psychology: Gateways to Mind and Behavior[14], in the Handbook of Group Psychotherapy[15] and in the book: Evaluating a Large Group Awareness Training.[16]
As an analogy I went over to redox to see where it informed me that the term was really truly used in chemistry TEXTBOOKS. The inclusion of that bit is just so much dross and links for links sake (dare I say "sources for sources sake"?) Make it go away. Please. It is unprofessional and amateurish (and that is redundant again). -- Justanother 00:36, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
LGAT is not mentioned in the article regarding white-collar-cults. Please do not reinclude this source. Lsi john 02:58, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
This text: Large Group Awareness Trainings often take place in relatively enclosed locations.[17] seems odd. Can someone provide page number on this book to clarify what this means? Thanks. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 01:47, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Smee, you know better than that. This is an article about LGAT (a methodology), which covers a large number of companies. Singling out ONE company, just to mention CULT is unacceptable and is not encyclopedic. Someone needs to please remove that. I can't right now, as I believe I'm close to 3 reverts here and do not want to edit war. Lsi john 03:56, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
This is not a psychological term. Simply because a psychologist used it, does not make it a psychological term. This is not only Original Research, but is incorrect. Lsi john 04:11, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Nuff said. Smee 04:16, 30 May 2007 (UTC).
Yes, and I bet those books had LOTS of words and phrases that were not considered PSYCHOLOGICAL TERMS. You are doing Original Research and you are edit warring. Please stop. Lsi john 04:29, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Is there anything I can edit here that you won't revert? Even my templates get reverted? That {{originalresearch}} template needs to be there. All you had to do was point out that it needed |section added. You just want to revert everything and it grows old. Lsi john 04:27, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Use of the word "psychological" in describing the term Large Group Awareness Training. 05:22, 30 May 2007 (UTC).
Uninvolved editors, please note that this article is about LGAT which is a methodology used by seminar companies to provide personal growth training. LGAT does not need to be 'built up' and 'legitimized' and the article does not need to be 'fluffed'. Krator has also expressed the same view previously. Lsi john 05:41, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
From my reading of those sources its definitely a term used in psychology. But its also used in cultic studies, and in books on pseudoscience and skepticism. I think the term could simply be described as being used primarily by psychology, cultic studies, and scientific skepticism. Any relevant links that help to explain why it is used by those sources will be helpful, including appropriate templates and so on. Jeffrire 10:17, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
To me it's clear that the attempt to attach the descriptor "psychological" is no more than a ploy to confer a veneer of respectability to a bunch of confused thinking and fractured logic which has no serious claim to scientific credibility.
Is there even a succinct, unambiguous, generally agreed definition?
The "Definition" section of the article tells us:
Great! So anything that meets these criteria is an LGAT then? And conversely the only conclusions that we can reliably draw about anything that is so categorised is that it teaches simple things that are often overlooked, and that it takes place over several days?
Quite apart from the tortured grammar, what does this even mean? How can "a psychological term used to describe trainings" be "compared to certain principles"? And is the "idea that people can change their lives by interpreting the way they view external circumstances." an essential feature, or one that only applies to some of them? And if not essential, why is this in the 'Definition' section?
So what? And if one of the trainings that met the above criteria were held on a campsite it wouldn't count?
Sounds entirely commendable to me, but what's the connection with the defining characteristics above? Or is this an additional requirement? Or do these "issues related to a desire" follow automatically from learning "simple, often overlooked" things?
Again seems reasonable, but what's the relationship to previous definitions?
So how does this help us who haven't done any of these programs (and now can't since they haven't been running for decades)? And which characteristics of them are definitive, and which incidental?
Good! So what did he say?
Later on in the article we find an entire section entitled 'Compared to Cults'. ??? Excuse me, but what's the connection between the definitions above and cults? Or might this give a clue to an agenda being pursued here? DaveApter 10:30, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
I will agree with the above comment. I don't think one can use the term psychological for LGAT. For example, it is not a term found in the standard text on psychotherapy outcome reaearch, Bergin and Garfield's Handbook of Psychotherapy and Behavior Change 2003, NY: John Wiley. RalphLender talk 17:32, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
I would like us to develop a better lead to use when the page is unprotected. Here is my stab.
As used by some psychologists, psychiatrists, and academics, Large Group Awareness Training (or LGAT) refers to programs in the so-called human potential movement that claim to increase self-awareness and manifest positive personal changes in individuals' lives. [1] These programs have been compared to group therapy and religious revival meetings and have also been referred to as new age trainings, [2] mass marathon trainings [3] and white collar cults, [4] [5] though this latter term has been contested. [6] The trainings are usually run by non-psychologists and often involve more than two hundred people at a time. Though early materials described LGAT trainings as being of unusually long duration, more recent texts describe the training as lasting from a few hours to a few days. About a million Americans have attended LGAT seminars. [7]
Please edit it mercilessly. -- Justanother 22:41, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Large Group Awareness Training (or LGAT) refers to the training methods used by some companies, in what has been referred to as the human potential movement. By using the LGAT techniques, these companies claim to increase self-awareness and manifest positive personal changes in individuals' lives. [1]These programs have been compared to group therapy and religious revival meetings and have also been referred to as new age trainings,
[2] and mass marathon trainings
Usually run by non-psychologists, the courses often include more than two hundred people at a time. LGAT trainings have been said to be of an unusually long durations, though more recent reports cite the trainings as lasting from a few hours to a few days. About a million Americans have attended LGAT seminars. [7]
blah blah opinions differ about the effectiveness of these trainings with some claiming the changes from days to years, and others claiming that the techniques can be harmful?
(the last paragraph is 'my' wording and an example only. We need to find credible sourcing to use for real wording)
The white-collar-cult in one reference is tied to Landmark. In the other reference it is used in a murky way that does not lend itself well to a clear citation.
I do not believe that we should single out ONE company, to be included in the lead. Krator (or Jossi) said something similar to this in a previous comment. The lead should be Generic and General and cover the topic well, but not in specific detail.
If we want to have a section below on individual companies, then landmark will certainly be included.. and if it works out to tag the white-collar cult onto landmark, thats fine. But tying CULT to the lead in this article is inappropriate. IMO.
In deference to Smee's position, we can work in the psychologist stuff in the 2nd or 3rd paragraph of the lead. Lsi john 22:58, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
The above discussion itself demonstrates the complete confusion and wooly thinking that permeates the use of this term. Just in this paragraph, it has been suggested that LGAT refers to:
If there isn't even agreement on what sort of a thing it refers to, what hope is there of deciding whether any particular thing is an LGAT? And even if we could, what conclusions could we validly draw from the fact it is an LGAT?
So far as I can see this is a completely bogus categorisation whose main use is to facilitate completely bogus arguments of the following structure:
Even if there were reliable tests for deciding whether Y abd Y were indeed LGATs (which there aren't), the inference would be logically bankrupt because the conclusion doesn't follow from the premises, eg:
An meanwhile can anyone point us to an actual definition? Because if not, this article hasn't actually even got a subject to discuss. DaveApter 09:04, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Dave,
In some respects I agree. And in some respects, I'd rather try to steer a speeding, and out of control, semi safely to an emergency lane, than to stand in front of it, and either deny it exists or try to stop it with my bare hands. If you haven't already, take a moment to read my userpage essay on LGAT and wikipedia.
All 'strict sourcing' aside. All 'anti-cult' rhetoric aside. All 'POV authors (and editors)' aside. The term (phrase) has been used, and repeated, enough times, that it has some (at least low level) legitimacy. It's our job to sort through the rhetoric and biased sources, and find out what the true (and scientifically accepted?) meaning is, and then write an article which reflects that.
I agree, saying 'is used by psychologists' is inappropriate for several reasons.
Whether or not such a statement is accurate, isn't relevant, as it serves only to self-legitimize the term through OR. It doesn't give any view of the context in which the term is actually used by those sources and is, therefore, inappropriate.
Also, keep in mind that compromise will be required by all parties. I don't really 'know' what the human potential movement is, but in this article it doesn't sound scary and it doesn't sound cultish. To me, it sounds like an upwelling of people who want to find their potential, which sounds like a good thing to me. Furthermore, if WP:RS equated LGAT to HPM, then why not put it in the article? You can count it as a Good-Faith concession and part of your compromise. If the HPM article reflects an incorrect definition of HPM, then that can be addressed in its turn.
In general, LGAT is used by anti-cult propagandists in place of the word cult. Ok, so what. They've been successful and now it has been used a couple times by legitimate people and aparently by some of the companies themselves. So, lets focus on finding out how the legitimate community defines it. A solid scientific definition (or even an unsolid one) will certainly trump the anti-cult 'defined by example'.
The article is here, and it isn't going away. There are far too many (reliable) anti-cult propraganda sources using the phrase to be able to argue that it isn't legitimate. Rather than trying to stop the semi, lets make the article as accurate and as neutral as possible. I'm much more concerned about having someone improperly slip white collar cult propaganda into the lead (and thus cult into the definition), than I am in having human potential movement there. Lsi john 13:56, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Dave, if we agree on those then we have a basic justification for an article. All that is left is ensuring that the writing of it complies with WP:V and WP:NPOV. Ready to start? -- Justanother 14:29, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Since this version, the article's already gone down from (44) citations to (39). Most intriguing. Smee 05:41, 3 June 2007 (UTC).
The exact text:
Training seminars are a fixture of modern business. Sales motivation "congresses" and other seminars are used to build communication skills and success techniques. Some of these fall into a category known as Large Group Awareness Training (LGAT) using a methodology which some label that of a white-collar cult. Fortune 500 companies and individuals shell out millions each year to motivational gurus who use a tested five day formula to guide them to higher performance and personal power. While some attendees become lifelong disciples for the method, others object to the highly confrontational and disturbing tactics that they are asked to endure. highly experienced facilitators use crowd dynamics as social prof that the "life changing" tactics are valid, but some delegates have found themselves needing psychiatric care by the fourth day.
First, his claim related to white-collar cults is unclear, at best. It appears that he is saying that some group(s), that use a methodology (unspecified), which places them in a category (LGAT) (undefined), have been referred to as white-collar-cults by some persons (unknown). He then, later on the next page, cites the skeptic's dictionary for a definition of LGAT programs. But there is no indication that the persons (unknown) that he cites as using the term white-collar-cults used the same definition.
Second, his entire paragraph is clearly POV and biased. Saying 'some attendees become lifelong disciples for the method' is a bit suggestive. Then 'others object to the highly confrontational and disturbing tactics' is over the top. Others might object to 'what they perceive as...', but declaring that 'all LGATS use highly confrontational and disturbing tactics that members are asked to endure' is an unsupported opinion of this author.
Therefore, I will not object to some form of this being included, but I cannot accept it as it was worded recently. And, I'm not sure what wording I would accept, given the vague, leading, prejudicial POV and invalid nature of the paragraph being cited. If I could have come up with something to include in our article, as a compromise, I would have.
And, equally important, he does not provide a definition for a "white-collar-cult" and he doesn't provide references or sources for a definition or who has used the term. Including the word 'cult' in any article, without a good (and restrictive) definition, is unacceptable.
Lsi john 12:08, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
First, tell us their definition for White-Collar-Cult. Then provide the sources they are citing. They are not saying that anything is a white-collar-cult, they are citing sources as saying it. What are their sources? Where are their citations? This is not verifiable and cannot be included. Lsi john 04:32, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
If you wish to continue removing NPOV sourced material, I will not revert that either. Your pov pushing is going strong tonight. I will now stop editing at wiki and take a break, as you seem intent on edit warring again. As you say "happy editing". Lsi john 05:07, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
The article page have in it's entirety become privately saved for anti-cult purposes. Said: Rursus ☺ ★ 08:39, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
This one edit removed (4) reputable citations from the article. The lead/intro before this was much better. It was worked on initially not by myself, but primarily was reworked by User:Krator. See Talk:Large_Group_Awareness_Training#Krator.27s_re-work_of_the_LEAD.... Smee 13:41, 4 June 2007 (UTC).
Although there is a brief mention of psychotic episodes connected to LGATS that problem is not explored. Those episodes are the most important outcome to explain what actually happens to cause the effects from LGATS.
The life changing outcomes are achieved through the accidental, subliminal, application of operant conditioning
Landmark Education now warns potential participants about the psychotic outcomes of their seminar, The Forum. They don't understand the cause. They blame previous mental illness problems but admit there are cases where there had been no previous mental problems.
What the LGATS are doing to achieve the psychiatric symptoms as well as the 'believed to be positive' outcomes is replicating the "special circumstances" for Subliminal Distraction exposure. -- If they turned off the lights in the lecture room there would be no beneficial outcome from the seminar and no psychotic episodes.
There have been investigations and papers’ written going back to 1977 attempting to find the cause of these mental breaks. Every one performing that research has been missing a small piece of information. That is the accidental 1960’s discovery of a 'conflict in the physiology of sight' capable of causing a mental break.
Office workers using the first prototypes of close-spaced workstations had the same mental breaks in the 1960's. Psychologists called in to solve the problem found that constant triggering of the Startle Reflex caused the effect. The Cubicle was designed to deal with a normal feature of physiology and the mental breaks stopped after 1968.
The office Cubicle has been used for forty years to prevent these events in business offices.
http://visionandpsychosis.net/a_demonstration_you_can_do.htm
http://visionandpsychosis.net/Brainwashing_Mindcontrol.htm
http://visionandpsychosis.net/EST_Werner_Erhard.htm
I am the copyright holder for this material. L K Tucker 68.158.193.172 00:05, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
In order to uphold the quality of Wikipedia:Good articles, all articles listed as Good articles are being reviewed against the GA criteria as part of the GA project quality task force. While all the hard work that has gone into this article is appreciated, unfortunately, as of February 14, 2009, this article fails to satisfy the criteria, as detailed below. For that reason, the article has been delisted from WP:GA. However, if improvements are made bringing the article up to standards, the article may be nominated at WP:GAN. If you feel this decision has been made in error, you may seek remediation at WP:GAR.
-- Malleus Fatuorum 17:25, 14 February 2009 (UTC)
The article contains the claim "Controversial tactics sometimes used by LGAT groups have included physical violence, isolation, entrapment, brainwashing, and sexual experiences.[25]". In this case, the cite does not substantiate the claim in the article. Thus the cite should be removed, as it doesn't support the claim. And subsequently, the claim itself should be removed as unsupported and misleading.
The cited work is: Weir, D., An Odyssey of Sexual/Gender Evolution: An Autoethnographical Study of the United States from the 1950s to the Present, April 2002. It's a PhD Dissertation written in 2002. The abstract of the work describes the work as "an autoethnographical narrative and historical review of the changes in the associations with the concepts of femininity and masculinity" which "examines the question of there being a sexual/gender revolution in the United States during the past fifty years" (page 5). The only mention of LGATs in the work occurs on page 47, which discusses LGATs (and specifically EST) in the context of the broader Human Potential Movement of the 1970s. The paragraph in question reads: "Although Erhard adamantly denied that the est enlightenment was associated with any religious intent, many of the other therapy programs of the 1970s did evolve into religions and cults “under the authoritarian control of the charismatic founder” (Anthony et al, p. 13), such as Synanon, Scientology, and psychosynthesis. (pp. 11-17.) The groups’ activities sometimes involved physical violence, isolation, entrapment, brainwashing, and sexual experiences." From this sentence, EST is explicitly excluded, and the 3 examples provided were not LGATs at all, but rather simply part of the broader discussion of the "Human Potential Movement" at large. Furthermore, this work fails to provide any additional detail or evidence to support the claim of physical violence, sexual experiences, etc.. One possible reason for the lack of evidence is the fact that the claim wasn't the main focus of the work, or even of the paragraph itself. Because the cite does not actually support the claim in the article, it should be removed.
Based on this finding, I'm removing the cite as it doesn't support the claim, and removing the claim itself from the article as unsupported and misleading. Anyone wishing to reinsert the claim should provide a cite which more directly supports the assertions made.
Dougbateman ( talk) 00:22, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
In the section Singer there's this sentence with what looks like a quotation mark that shouldn't be there (second last paragraph): The book mentions Erhard Seminars Training and its derivatives such as the Forum, "Lifespring, Actualizations, MSIA/Insight and PSI Seminars.[33]
Also, the very last section, ICSA, with its one sentence seems slightly unclear to me. The sentence goes like this: "The International Cultic Studies Association has grouped some Large Group Awareness Training organizations together with research about them."
Anyway, this article was highly interesting to read. Thanks for putting it together, all you who put it together! :-) Contributions/62.16.190.104 ( talk) 08:34, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
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Reading this article and looking at the sources, it seems like a great deal of it if not most come from anti-cult group literature. Aside from being rather difficult to read, it seems to be a bit of a coat rack for the critical point of view. Elmmapleoakpine ( talk) 21:55, 5 July 2016 (UTC)
Absolutely. It is also very supportive of modern religions, most of which use LGAT techniques - both in recruitment style and rhetoric - and yet the article draws no parallels. http://www.biographyonline.net/spiritual/articles/difference-religion-cult.html http://www.hopesandfears.com/hopes/now/question/216321-religion-or-cult
It's hard to believe the most important criticism of LGAT is left out: That after the participants stops, most experience the whole thing to fade away. Almost all insider articles end with this at the end. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 104.182.178.9 ( talk) 20:43, 27 April 2015
This may be biased by the fact that "insiders who write articles" are of a particular stripe. I "stopped" an LGAT that participated only very briefly in, and have benefited from, primarily, recognizing and being more skillful at the art of social manipulation. This is not an "side effect". At the particular LGAT I was in, it was the intended effect. And in my career as an independent businessman, and as a marketing consultant, it has been extremely valuable. Indeed, I suspect that the modern trend of cult-like corporate culture was inspired by LGAT techniques.
This article is extremely negative. Many LGATs are far less aggressive in their manipulation, needing no deprivation of food, or hypnosis to succeed in their message. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.172.169.86 ( talk) 13:23, 13 July 2016 (UTC)
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it is located in the "Definitions of LGAT" section and does not seem to be connected in any way to the text preceeding it, nor the text following it. i think it is a piece of garbage/noise, not being relevant, completely devoid of information. unless it is possible to expand it with something that connects it to the rest of the article and puts it in context, it should be deleted.
"In Consumer Research: Postcards from the edge, discussing behavioral and economic studies, the authors contrasted the "enclosed locations" used with Large Group Awareness Trainings with the "relatively open" environment of a "variety store".[6]" 89.134.199.32 ( talk) 12:34, 30 June 2018 (UTC).
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