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Look through the applications, make it read better (it's currently just a huge list), and see which ones are the really important ones. If going for FA later, expand the chemistry section (it's an okay overview, but there is more to say). Double sharp ( talk) 03:22, 23 June 2016 (UTC)
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Reviewer: Casliber ( talk · contribs) 09:07, 10 July 2016 (UTC)
I'll take a look at this:
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R8R removed the old paragraph describing it, which I restored. I tried to be balanced here: the first paragraph shows pretty much the main Lu argument (both La and Lu have the d differentiating electron), and then the La ones given in the literature in their own paragraph ("the differences are because La is bigger", "La has no f-involvement", and "eka-Y should be expected to be bigger than Y, and La is but Lu isn't"). So I restrained myself to giving the points made in the literature, and I also noted that Lu is more similar to Y (but not Sc). In general it is pretty difficult to find this material in the literature because it is usually considered a non-issue resolved in favour of La, so if you can find some more points in the actual literature (not just from us pontificating), please let me know, and I'll add them. Or if you also have any suggestions on how to make it look less biased.
But I notice my point doesn't seem to be quite understood, so here's a summary of how I think about it personally without the balancing in the article (it goes without saying that this is talk-page material, illustrating why I find your objections lack some force for me):
Since you (evidently) disagree with my conclusion, then the issue must be with (at least) one of these statements. So where do you find a problem?
One possible objection may be how much weight you apply to the Aufbau principle. If you consider that to be sacrosanct, then indeed it would trump the smaller differences and suggest Lu under Y. The problem is that I don't believe that the Aufbau principle is sacrosanct. I, like many actual chemists, believe that it is supposed to be a rough guide to the periodic table in terms of actual electron configurations, which influence but don't dictate actual chemistry, and this may sound anti-reductionist (it isn't) but we don't understand completely where the Aufbau comes from, only that it is a trend that you can see from the subshell collapses. So I think that as long as we don't have a coherent theory that pops out Aufbau from first principles instead of just showing it up as a cool pattern, I think that the choice between La and Lu needs chemical justification like any other.
But, of course, this is just how I think, and in the article we have to reflect what is in the literature. This may be a bit of a tall order because the main arguments offered by the few Lu-advocates I see are Aufbau, greater similarities of Lu than La to Y, and commonalities in trends with groups 4 through 8, all of which are covered. (Though I notice that it's mostly the La advocates who note that while Lu is very similar to Y, it certainly isn't as similar to Sc, which is different because it's even smaller.) There seem to be a few more La arguments around (since this has finally gotten enough spotlight that a few La advocates have responded). But please do suggest some improvements on the talk page; I daresay it would be more useful to our readers than deleting the entire thing, which is all found in reliable sources. Double sharp ( talk) 02:26, 20 November 2017 (UTC)
@ R8R: Unfortunately real life intervened after that post and I forgot about this discussion, but in the meantime this issue got another airing in the WT:ELEM archives. That latest discussion came very close indeed to convincing me back to Sc-Y-Lu-Lr. ^_^ I do agree now that group 3 element is the proper place for this longstanding argument and that any discussion here ought to be short and perhaps just limited to saying that there is an argument, because regardless of which side you pick, you still need to do comparative chemistry with Ac and the rare earths anyway. So I think it's fine that this section is no longer in the article, but that the lede mentions that La's exact classification is under some debate and both La and Lu have sometimes been assigned the 5d1 slot (and there's not much we could do in the body except for repeating tha statement again without going off-topic, so I think we might be able to invoke IAR for its absence from the body). Double sharp ( talk) 13:07, 7 December 2018 (UTC)
Thankfully, I finally learned enough to be able to tell where exactly this argument fails: points 8 and 11. Lanthanum has f-involvement, and it continues until only ytterbium. Therefore, the case doesn't work, and so I changed my mind to -Lu-Lr (as most sources focusing on this point agree with, even if textbooks are slow to update). Fortunately, IUPAC has already published the provisional report, so this mistake (as Bernd T. Mathias put it) could finally be corrected. Although it still has to get into an actual report, the IUPAC periodic table, and finally out in the wild. Double sharp ( talk) 13:08, 8 February 2021 (UTC)
I am missing a mention of the use of La in High-temperature superconductors (HTS) and more broadly the Lanthanum hydrides. Unfortunately, I'm not sure where to put it, since HTS are not really 'applications' yet. Any thoughts on this?
Another good source for this is this very recent paper.
![]() | This ![]() It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||
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![]() | Lanthanum has been listed as one of the Natural sciences good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it. | |||||||||
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This page has archives. Sections older than 730 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III when more than 4 sections are present. |
Look through the applications, make it read better (it's currently just a huge list), and see which ones are the really important ones. If going for FA later, expand the chemistry section (it's an okay overview, but there is more to say). Double sharp ( talk) 03:22, 23 June 2016 (UTC)
GA toolbox |
---|
Reviewing |
Reviewer: Casliber ( talk · contribs) 09:07, 10 July 2016 (UTC)
I'll take a look at this:
Cas Liber (
talk ·
contribs) 09:07, 10 July 2016 (UTC)
1. Well written?:
2. Factually accurate and verifiable?:
3. Broad in coverage?:
4. Reflects a neutral point of view?:
5. Reasonably stable?
6. Illustrated by images, when possible and appropriate?:
Overall:
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I have just modified 3 external links on Lanthanum. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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This message was posted before February 2018.
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have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
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source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 13:58, 11 May 2017 (UTC)
R8R removed the old paragraph describing it, which I restored. I tried to be balanced here: the first paragraph shows pretty much the main Lu argument (both La and Lu have the d differentiating electron), and then the La ones given in the literature in their own paragraph ("the differences are because La is bigger", "La has no f-involvement", and "eka-Y should be expected to be bigger than Y, and La is but Lu isn't"). So I restrained myself to giving the points made in the literature, and I also noted that Lu is more similar to Y (but not Sc). In general it is pretty difficult to find this material in the literature because it is usually considered a non-issue resolved in favour of La, so if you can find some more points in the actual literature (not just from us pontificating), please let me know, and I'll add them. Or if you also have any suggestions on how to make it look less biased.
But I notice my point doesn't seem to be quite understood, so here's a summary of how I think about it personally without the balancing in the article (it goes without saying that this is talk-page material, illustrating why I find your objections lack some force for me):
Since you (evidently) disagree with my conclusion, then the issue must be with (at least) one of these statements. So where do you find a problem?
One possible objection may be how much weight you apply to the Aufbau principle. If you consider that to be sacrosanct, then indeed it would trump the smaller differences and suggest Lu under Y. The problem is that I don't believe that the Aufbau principle is sacrosanct. I, like many actual chemists, believe that it is supposed to be a rough guide to the periodic table in terms of actual electron configurations, which influence but don't dictate actual chemistry, and this may sound anti-reductionist (it isn't) but we don't understand completely where the Aufbau comes from, only that it is a trend that you can see from the subshell collapses. So I think that as long as we don't have a coherent theory that pops out Aufbau from first principles instead of just showing it up as a cool pattern, I think that the choice between La and Lu needs chemical justification like any other.
But, of course, this is just how I think, and in the article we have to reflect what is in the literature. This may be a bit of a tall order because the main arguments offered by the few Lu-advocates I see are Aufbau, greater similarities of Lu than La to Y, and commonalities in trends with groups 4 through 8, all of which are covered. (Though I notice that it's mostly the La advocates who note that while Lu is very similar to Y, it certainly isn't as similar to Sc, which is different because it's even smaller.) There seem to be a few more La arguments around (since this has finally gotten enough spotlight that a few La advocates have responded). But please do suggest some improvements on the talk page; I daresay it would be more useful to our readers than deleting the entire thing, which is all found in reliable sources. Double sharp ( talk) 02:26, 20 November 2017 (UTC)
@ R8R: Unfortunately real life intervened after that post and I forgot about this discussion, but in the meantime this issue got another airing in the WT:ELEM archives. That latest discussion came very close indeed to convincing me back to Sc-Y-Lu-Lr. ^_^ I do agree now that group 3 element is the proper place for this longstanding argument and that any discussion here ought to be short and perhaps just limited to saying that there is an argument, because regardless of which side you pick, you still need to do comparative chemistry with Ac and the rare earths anyway. So I think it's fine that this section is no longer in the article, but that the lede mentions that La's exact classification is under some debate and both La and Lu have sometimes been assigned the 5d1 slot (and there's not much we could do in the body except for repeating tha statement again without going off-topic, so I think we might be able to invoke IAR for its absence from the body). Double sharp ( talk) 13:07, 7 December 2018 (UTC)
Thankfully, I finally learned enough to be able to tell where exactly this argument fails: points 8 and 11. Lanthanum has f-involvement, and it continues until only ytterbium. Therefore, the case doesn't work, and so I changed my mind to -Lu-Lr (as most sources focusing on this point agree with, even if textbooks are slow to update). Fortunately, IUPAC has already published the provisional report, so this mistake (as Bernd T. Mathias put it) could finally be corrected. Although it still has to get into an actual report, the IUPAC periodic table, and finally out in the wild. Double sharp ( talk) 13:08, 8 February 2021 (UTC)
I am missing a mention of the use of La in High-temperature superconductors (HTS) and more broadly the Lanthanum hydrides. Unfortunately, I'm not sure where to put it, since HTS are not really 'applications' yet. Any thoughts on this?
Another good source for this is this very recent paper.