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I think the 2 infoboxes in this page are nothing but a distracting nuisance. Has anybody anything to say about it? -- Jotamar ( talk) 15:47, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
The 'Social origin' subsection was reading something like "The main cause of Spanish and Catalan social bilingualism in modern Catalonia is a large scale immigration process from the rest of Spain which occurred over the 20th century". That is not exact.
Actually, the previous wording was contradicting itself, because, after declaring immigration the main cause, read like this "Spanish has also been spoken as a second language by most Catalans, as it has been the only official language over long periods since the eighteenth century".
To illustrate a bit better my point, let's take a hypothetic scenario of Catalonia having had 0 immigration from other regions in Spain, would that mean that Catalans would not be bilingual in Spanish today? I dont think so. Actually, that scenario is not so hypothetical, since large rural parts of Catalonia had a basically 0 immigration from other parts of Spain, but that doesnt mean that the people living there are not bilingual.
Obviously there are a series of concomitant factors taking to the present situation. Immigration is one of those. I changed the text accordingly. MOUNTOLIVE fedeli alla linea 18:16, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
[indent] The source is not too bad. I mean, it still has quite a xenophobic subtext ("an immigration that would have been even larger had not whole trainloads of newcomers been turned back prior to their arrival" what on earth is this guy talking about?? who stopped those "trainloads" (rather unfortunate wording coming from a Jewish, huh?)??) but it still has some value.
However, the quote is not saying that the main cause for bilingualism is immigration, as the text claims.
Look, I will do a last try to explain myself better, I just hope you make the effort yourself as well to try to understand my point, which is not so complicated anyway:
How does immigration explain the fact that the locals of small-to-middle populations virtually untouched by immigration from the rest of Spain speak Spanish? (I'm thinking the likes of Tremp, Capellades, Caldes de Malavella...). Are you suggesting that marginal rates of immigration (this kind of villages may well have had a 0 to 10% immigration from elsewhere in Spain after all) can dramatically change so much the local custom? I dont think you are, you must be smarter than that.
So, there has to be more decissive factors. Unsurprisingly, yes, there are. Basically I am thinking of mass media. Catalans are not isolated from the rest of Spain as your reasoning is suggesting. According to what the text is presenting now, it sounds like should Catalonia had not had any immigration from the rest of Spain, people there would not speak Spanish, something which is non-sense.
Immigration did flooded the outskirts of Barcelona, but whatever consequences it had in and around BCN we can not extend to the whole region if we are to be true to the facts. There are many factors and conceding the role of "main" to immigration is not true outside of BCN, as per this reasoning. Whatever explanation works for BCN-metro is not necessarily working for the rest, because BCN-metro has little in common with anywhere else in Catalonia. See my point?
Am I making any sense? MOUNTOLIVE fedeli alla linea 18:35, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
Immigration brings to mind economic immigration from abroad. This in reinforced when talking about Urdu or Maghrebi Arabic. Therefore, including Spanish here is very much misleading.
If immigration from America is meant, "American Spanish" is better to reflect it. If "immigration" from the rest of Spain is thought of, this is simply not correct, for two reasons:
1) This is not "immigration" neither in the technical nor in the received wisdom sense of the world. It would be internal migration instead.
2) Remarkable fluxes of internal migration into Catalonia originating from the rest of Spain ended approx. 30 or 40 years ago. Their descendants have been raised for the most part in Catalan by the Catalan education system (in place since the early 1980s, that is 30 years ago).
3) Unless an ethnic nationalist concept is followed in the article, it is not possible to label people indefinitely like "internal migrants" if they are born and raised in Catalonia, regardless of their parents origins.
Dear Jotamar, by reading this talk page I can see that you seem to think your wording is very difficult to improve. Therefore, I ask you, to please improve it with a different wording of your own which is acceptable both to you and to me. In the meantime, I am using "American Spanish" which is more consistent with the rest of languages listed and the received wisdom. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.73.63.7 ( talk) 10:23, 10 March 2011 (UTC)
Now, since we seem to be able to discuss this with a cold head, I would like to point your attention to the same infobox and Catalan described there as a "minority language".
When -in practical terms- the GenCat is basically monolingual in Catalan, most local media are either monolingual in Catalan or have at least a Catalan edition, the Parliament life is monolingual in Catalan (save Ciutadans), the education system is monolingual in Catalan (save for some hours of Spanish and English), there are important pockets of population in rural Catalonia (away from BCN) monolingual in Catalan (save for the language of seasonal immigrant labourers), most public life takes place in Catalan and so on....
...on the face of all this, dont you think that to write that "Catalan is a minority language in Catalonia" in the same fashion as Aranese is a gross overstatement? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.73.63.7 ( talk) 19:17, 11 March 2011 (UTC)
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I think the 2 infoboxes in this page are nothing but a distracting nuisance. Has anybody anything to say about it? -- Jotamar ( talk) 15:47, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
The 'Social origin' subsection was reading something like "The main cause of Spanish and Catalan social bilingualism in modern Catalonia is a large scale immigration process from the rest of Spain which occurred over the 20th century". That is not exact.
Actually, the previous wording was contradicting itself, because, after declaring immigration the main cause, read like this "Spanish has also been spoken as a second language by most Catalans, as it has been the only official language over long periods since the eighteenth century".
To illustrate a bit better my point, let's take a hypothetic scenario of Catalonia having had 0 immigration from other regions in Spain, would that mean that Catalans would not be bilingual in Spanish today? I dont think so. Actually, that scenario is not so hypothetical, since large rural parts of Catalonia had a basically 0 immigration from other parts of Spain, but that doesnt mean that the people living there are not bilingual.
Obviously there are a series of concomitant factors taking to the present situation. Immigration is one of those. I changed the text accordingly. MOUNTOLIVE fedeli alla linea 18:16, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
[indent] The source is not too bad. I mean, it still has quite a xenophobic subtext ("an immigration that would have been even larger had not whole trainloads of newcomers been turned back prior to their arrival" what on earth is this guy talking about?? who stopped those "trainloads" (rather unfortunate wording coming from a Jewish, huh?)??) but it still has some value.
However, the quote is not saying that the main cause for bilingualism is immigration, as the text claims.
Look, I will do a last try to explain myself better, I just hope you make the effort yourself as well to try to understand my point, which is not so complicated anyway:
How does immigration explain the fact that the locals of small-to-middle populations virtually untouched by immigration from the rest of Spain speak Spanish? (I'm thinking the likes of Tremp, Capellades, Caldes de Malavella...). Are you suggesting that marginal rates of immigration (this kind of villages may well have had a 0 to 10% immigration from elsewhere in Spain after all) can dramatically change so much the local custom? I dont think you are, you must be smarter than that.
So, there has to be more decissive factors. Unsurprisingly, yes, there are. Basically I am thinking of mass media. Catalans are not isolated from the rest of Spain as your reasoning is suggesting. According to what the text is presenting now, it sounds like should Catalonia had not had any immigration from the rest of Spain, people there would not speak Spanish, something which is non-sense.
Immigration did flooded the outskirts of Barcelona, but whatever consequences it had in and around BCN we can not extend to the whole region if we are to be true to the facts. There are many factors and conceding the role of "main" to immigration is not true outside of BCN, as per this reasoning. Whatever explanation works for BCN-metro is not necessarily working for the rest, because BCN-metro has little in common with anywhere else in Catalonia. See my point?
Am I making any sense? MOUNTOLIVE fedeli alla linea 18:35, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
Immigration brings to mind economic immigration from abroad. This in reinforced when talking about Urdu or Maghrebi Arabic. Therefore, including Spanish here is very much misleading.
If immigration from America is meant, "American Spanish" is better to reflect it. If "immigration" from the rest of Spain is thought of, this is simply not correct, for two reasons:
1) This is not "immigration" neither in the technical nor in the received wisdom sense of the world. It would be internal migration instead.
2) Remarkable fluxes of internal migration into Catalonia originating from the rest of Spain ended approx. 30 or 40 years ago. Their descendants have been raised for the most part in Catalan by the Catalan education system (in place since the early 1980s, that is 30 years ago).
3) Unless an ethnic nationalist concept is followed in the article, it is not possible to label people indefinitely like "internal migrants" if they are born and raised in Catalonia, regardless of their parents origins.
Dear Jotamar, by reading this talk page I can see that you seem to think your wording is very difficult to improve. Therefore, I ask you, to please improve it with a different wording of your own which is acceptable both to you and to me. In the meantime, I am using "American Spanish" which is more consistent with the rest of languages listed and the received wisdom. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.73.63.7 ( talk) 10:23, 10 March 2011 (UTC)
Now, since we seem to be able to discuss this with a cold head, I would like to point your attention to the same infobox and Catalan described there as a "minority language".
When -in practical terms- the GenCat is basically monolingual in Catalan, most local media are either monolingual in Catalan or have at least a Catalan edition, the Parliament life is monolingual in Catalan (save Ciutadans), the education system is monolingual in Catalan (save for some hours of Spanish and English), there are important pockets of population in rural Catalonia (away from BCN) monolingual in Catalan (save for the language of seasonal immigrant labourers), most public life takes place in Catalan and so on....
...on the face of all this, dont you think that to write that "Catalan is a minority language in Catalonia" in the same fashion as Aranese is a gross overstatement? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.73.63.7 ( talk) 19:17, 11 March 2011 (UTC)
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