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User:Error on the Spain under Franco article has recently written following summary of the question:
Language politics in Francoist Spain were based on Spanish nationalism. Only Spanish was official, the usage of the rest was discouraged as minor "dialects".
A sample for this usage -still widespread in the 70's and later- could be following quote in [1], from an (sadly unnamed) school book from 1939
«-¿Se habla en España otras lenguas más que la castellana?
«-Puede decirse que en España se habla sólo la lengua castellana, pues aparte de ésta tan sólo se habla vascuence que, como la lengua única, sólo se emplea en algunos caseríos vascos y quedó reducido a funciones de dialecto por su pobreza lingüística y filológica.
»-.¿Cuáles son los dialectos principales que se hablan en España? -Los dialectos principales que se hablan en España son cuatro: el catalán, el valenciano, el mallorquín y el gallego.»
To us, a quote like this looks -to be mild- a little bit outlandish, but mirrors almost exactly a -till recently- common usage in France (see Language policy in France).
It also has to be noted that during the XIX century and even later, sentences similar to this, were a "watermark" of liberal thinking (or even republican, f.i. Alejandro Lerroux's following ).
In my opinion, it's not very useful this "areas" categorization: it will not be easy to found great diferences between the kind of repression in Mallorca or Barcelona, in example. I propose the categorization by languages, closest to the article's subject: Catalan/valencian ; Basque ; Galician; Aragonese and Asturian (if possible) ; Caló ; Former spanish colonies. -- Joan sense nick 10:55, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
I don't think sections by language encourage such attitudes, neither other ones. I trust in the common sense of we contributors, just take a look to most articles here!. --
Joan sense nick
00:35, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
The title of the article sounds strange. I propose "Languages policy of Francoist Spain" or "Languages repression in Francoist Spain". A WP precedent is Racial policy of Nazi Germany.
The article's subject is the repression that Francoist regime exerted over languages other than Spanish. The title "language politics" seems to refer, for example, to the promotion of Spanish language abroad, or to the promotion of the language unity in Latin America... -- Joan sense nick 22:16, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
Can you give some exemples of such "agents"? Can this be considered as "politics in Francoist Spain"?
Note that "Francoist Spain" means "the regime of Franco in Spain", (since not all the spaniards were francoists). It's not the same as "Spain under Francoist dictatorship", or "Spain (1939-1978)".
By the way, what you mean in your reference on the apparition of standard Basque? Francoist Spain stopped this process. See
[2].
I insist in renaming. --
Joan sense nick
00:29, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
Certainly, Joan Manuel Serrat can be a subject of "politics in Francoist Spain" using
Error's definition. But it's not a common use, in my opinion. Besides, everything, everyone, can be a political subject, but... it sounds a little bit strange, aint'it?. I think an article refered to the Franco's regime attitude on languages is more clear.
Otherwise, if the subject of this article is the evolution, the events, related to languages, in this period, we can use something like "Languages in the Franco-era Spain", but i think such issues should be simply included in Spain under Franco or Spanish state. -- Joan sense nick 01:37, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
I find HISTORIA / 60 AÑOS DE CARNÉ DE IDENTIDAD:
but Antonio García García has a Spanish-only DNI from El Aaiún. Maybe there were different DNIs for natives and Christians. -- Error 01:20, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
I find in Muy Historia, nº 3 (enero-febrero 2006), page 44, 23 April 1943 as the date for the compulsory dubbing of foreign movies. However I am not capable of finding it in BOE (thanks, Wllacer).-- Error 17:19, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
I cut "Many speakers of other languages had supported the Second Spanish Republic, which Franco's forces defeated in the Spanish Civil War, bringing Franco to power" because, conversely, there were also "many speakers" of other languages who supported Franco, not only in the Galician, Balearic, Navarrese and other areas which started the Francoist uprising, but also in the Republican held zones (most notably, conservatives in Catalonia and the Land of Valencia and, to a lesser extent, in the Basque country) thus the former reference doesn't make much sense, in my opinion. In other words: while "separatism" was indeed an issue, provided the fact that not all the speakers of other languages where nationalists (in a contemporary sense), then, it was more the Left/Right divide which fueled this war, not a linguistic question whatsoever.
On the other hand, I am not sure about it, but Franco himself may have been a Galician speaker. Anyone knows about this? Mountolive 17:13, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
"Spanish" was recently changed to "the Spanish language (as Castilian is more widely known)". I believe this is wrong. There is no question that in Spanish, castellano and español are interchangeable, but this is not the case for their English-language equivalents. "Castilian" in English has the narrower connotation of specifically Castilian dialect; for example, the dialect of Andalusia is not "Castilian", but it is emphatically "Spanish". As far as I know, Franco made no efforts to suppress regional variation within the Spanish language. - Jmabel | Talk 01:39, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: moved Kotniski ( talk) 11:33, 26 December 2010 (UTC)
Language politics in Spain under Franco →
Language policies of Francoist Spain — Or
Language policy in Francoist Spain, as in
Language policy in Latvia and
Language policy in France, though I think the plural is better as there wasn't one single language policy.
The article Spain under Franco has been moved to Francoist Spain. I also think "Language policies of [country]" is clearer and more precise than "Language politics in [country]". The Celestial City ( talk) 19:36, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
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User:Error on the Spain under Franco article has recently written following summary of the question:
Language politics in Francoist Spain were based on Spanish nationalism. Only Spanish was official, the usage of the rest was discouraged as minor "dialects".
A sample for this usage -still widespread in the 70's and later- could be following quote in [1], from an (sadly unnamed) school book from 1939
«-¿Se habla en España otras lenguas más que la castellana?
«-Puede decirse que en España se habla sólo la lengua castellana, pues aparte de ésta tan sólo se habla vascuence que, como la lengua única, sólo se emplea en algunos caseríos vascos y quedó reducido a funciones de dialecto por su pobreza lingüística y filológica.
»-.¿Cuáles son los dialectos principales que se hablan en España? -Los dialectos principales que se hablan en España son cuatro: el catalán, el valenciano, el mallorquín y el gallego.»
To us, a quote like this looks -to be mild- a little bit outlandish, but mirrors almost exactly a -till recently- common usage in France (see Language policy in France).
It also has to be noted that during the XIX century and even later, sentences similar to this, were a "watermark" of liberal thinking (or even republican, f.i. Alejandro Lerroux's following ).
In my opinion, it's not very useful this "areas" categorization: it will not be easy to found great diferences between the kind of repression in Mallorca or Barcelona, in example. I propose the categorization by languages, closest to the article's subject: Catalan/valencian ; Basque ; Galician; Aragonese and Asturian (if possible) ; Caló ; Former spanish colonies. -- Joan sense nick 10:55, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
I don't think sections by language encourage such attitudes, neither other ones. I trust in the common sense of we contributors, just take a look to most articles here!. --
Joan sense nick
00:35, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
The title of the article sounds strange. I propose "Languages policy of Francoist Spain" or "Languages repression in Francoist Spain". A WP precedent is Racial policy of Nazi Germany.
The article's subject is the repression that Francoist regime exerted over languages other than Spanish. The title "language politics" seems to refer, for example, to the promotion of Spanish language abroad, or to the promotion of the language unity in Latin America... -- Joan sense nick 22:16, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
Can you give some exemples of such "agents"? Can this be considered as "politics in Francoist Spain"?
Note that "Francoist Spain" means "the regime of Franco in Spain", (since not all the spaniards were francoists). It's not the same as "Spain under Francoist dictatorship", or "Spain (1939-1978)".
By the way, what you mean in your reference on the apparition of standard Basque? Francoist Spain stopped this process. See
[2].
I insist in renaming. --
Joan sense nick
00:29, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
Certainly, Joan Manuel Serrat can be a subject of "politics in Francoist Spain" using
Error's definition. But it's not a common use, in my opinion. Besides, everything, everyone, can be a political subject, but... it sounds a little bit strange, aint'it?. I think an article refered to the Franco's regime attitude on languages is more clear.
Otherwise, if the subject of this article is the evolution, the events, related to languages, in this period, we can use something like "Languages in the Franco-era Spain", but i think such issues should be simply included in Spain under Franco or Spanish state. -- Joan sense nick 01:37, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
I find HISTORIA / 60 AÑOS DE CARNÉ DE IDENTIDAD:
but Antonio García García has a Spanish-only DNI from El Aaiún. Maybe there were different DNIs for natives and Christians. -- Error 01:20, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
I find in Muy Historia, nº 3 (enero-febrero 2006), page 44, 23 April 1943 as the date for the compulsory dubbing of foreign movies. However I am not capable of finding it in BOE (thanks, Wllacer).-- Error 17:19, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
I cut "Many speakers of other languages had supported the Second Spanish Republic, which Franco's forces defeated in the Spanish Civil War, bringing Franco to power" because, conversely, there were also "many speakers" of other languages who supported Franco, not only in the Galician, Balearic, Navarrese and other areas which started the Francoist uprising, but also in the Republican held zones (most notably, conservatives in Catalonia and the Land of Valencia and, to a lesser extent, in the Basque country) thus the former reference doesn't make much sense, in my opinion. In other words: while "separatism" was indeed an issue, provided the fact that not all the speakers of other languages where nationalists (in a contemporary sense), then, it was more the Left/Right divide which fueled this war, not a linguistic question whatsoever.
On the other hand, I am not sure about it, but Franco himself may have been a Galician speaker. Anyone knows about this? Mountolive 17:13, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
"Spanish" was recently changed to "the Spanish language (as Castilian is more widely known)". I believe this is wrong. There is no question that in Spanish, castellano and español are interchangeable, but this is not the case for their English-language equivalents. "Castilian" in English has the narrower connotation of specifically Castilian dialect; for example, the dialect of Andalusia is not "Castilian", but it is emphatically "Spanish". As far as I know, Franco made no efforts to suppress regional variation within the Spanish language. - Jmabel | Talk 01:39, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: moved Kotniski ( talk) 11:33, 26 December 2010 (UTC)
Language politics in Spain under Franco →
Language policies of Francoist Spain — Or
Language policy in Francoist Spain, as in
Language policy in Latvia and
Language policy in France, though I think the plural is better as there wasn't one single language policy.
The article Spain under Franco has been moved to Francoist Spain. I also think "Language policies of [country]" is clearer and more precise than "Language politics in [country]". The Celestial City ( talk) 19:36, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on Language policies of Francoist Spain. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 22:15, 16 December 2017 (UTC)