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Once again this discussion has grown extensively, and once again there has been disappointingly little progress towards consensus.
I have archived the page, and kept the 'Summary' section, which I still hope will provide a basis for an improved article.
I have also copied over the currently active discussion from the last few days to preserve continuity. DaveApter 14:19, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
Once again this talk page has got over-long, so I have archived it. Looking through the archived pages, it’s pretty clear that the discussion has gone round in circles with the same points being made over and over again, and more time being spent on re-iterating editors’ own viewpoints than seriously working towards a consensus on the structure of the article.
At present the article is a total mess, as a result of the POV-pushing and edit-warring over the last seven months. It is also much longer than it should be.
My request is that we work together to establish a consensus on this page regarding a desirable structure for the article, and then find acceptable references to build the page in that form.
I propose that an acceptable encyclopedia article on Landmark Education would provide readers with informative content regarding:
Does anyone disagree with this as a satisfactory ‘big-picture’ overview of what the article should deal with? (Please start the discussion in a new section below to preserve the flow of this overview paragraph – thanks).
My suggestions for how these areas could be dealt with are:
This section of the article should address the following questions:
(again - please discuss below).
This section as it stands is way over-large and violates the WP:NPOV policy by giving undue weight to minority views, and by reporting opinions as though they were facts.
A “controversy” by its nature is a matter of conflicting opinions.
What are the disputed matters? I’d say they are:
The concerns over the Assisting Programs would be quite properly discussed under the latter two headings.
The fact that some commentators have applied adjectives such as “cult” and “brainwashing” is not in itself informative, unless we know what they mean by the words, and what evidence they draw on to justify the description.
It seems to me that the majority of those expressing critical opinions on Landmark Education actually know very little about it, and quite disproportionate weight is given to uninformed speculation and hearsay. DaveApter 11:29, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
Caltechdoc 18:56, 22 March 2007 (UTC): I am a relatively new editor and am fascinated by the controversy generated by the Landmark Education article. As a research scientist interested in using Wikipedia as a resource, it is a bit disconcerting that so much controversy shows up around some topics. It takes only a moment of analysis to see that one particular editor, "Smee", has an axe to grind, and dedicates a fair amount of his/her day to grinding it. The questions about Landmark Education are valid - but the data is obscured by this particular editor. I have myself taken a number of "growth programs" and done a degree of research into them. The Landmark programs are clearly among the best by several measures - size of operations, number of participants, and numerous reports by participants of positive results, as well a variety of scholarly research papers completed (I have read several, from USC and from Harvard).
Re: The Harvard and Reebok Heads: There is a current "local-only" video clips web page that interviews briefly the Harvard Researcher and others who share their experience of Landmark, also a video intro and bits of the course. It cannot be accessed through the main Landmark website, but it is at www.landmarkeducation.com/wdcintro and select what participants say and see it in action for the video clips. They are apparently trying out the video intro locally to get the kinks out until it becomes accessible through their website. One of the "cubes" to click on is Prof. Emeritus Michael Jensen of Harvard business school who conducted a formal study on it, and Paul Fireman, ex CEO of Reebok. I hope I've put this comment in the right place--my first time. 68.100.13.29 19:27, 13 April 2007 (UTC)observer
Landmark is clearly not a cult, does not use brainwashing, and is a fine program that focuses on making a difference in people's lives. My sense is that the rate of negative outcomes is low, likely commensurate with the rate in any academic program (Caltech for example has a noticible rate of psychological trauma among its students - does this make Caltech a dangerous cult, or a danger to society? Caltech is clearly one of the finest scientific institutions on the planet.)
My sense is that if "Smee" is not allowed to alter the Landmark Education site for some period, the controversy would settle and we would converge on a balanced and useful article.
That statement is not worth very much if you can't sign; it's also rather impolite to suggest that a user who has worked so hard on a page suddenly stop participating. ER Talk 16:58, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
Lets- I quote from WP:LEAD:
When writing a lead section about ideas and concepts (such as "truth"), it can be helpful to introduce the topic as follows:
1. Context - describing the category or field in which the idea belongs. 2. Characterization - what the term refers to as used in the given context. 3. Explanation - deeper meaning and background. 4. Compare and contrast - how it relates to other topics, if appropriate.
5. Criticism - include criticism if there has been significant, notable criticism.
It also states that for larger articles (30,000 words plus) the length should be a maximum of 3 to 4 paragraphs. The first part of the current intor describes what we are talking about, the second describes some history and its predecessors, the third explains what it does and how that fits with some of its other sibling/subsidiary entities, and the fourth addresses criticisms.
There is a large contingent of us (see above discussions) that think the intro is already overly leaning towards talking about the far past too much and think MOST of the criticism stuff is pretty non-notable and minority POV driven. The fact is this intro was gotten to voer weeks and weeks of patient effort by editors to keep it balanced. I think we should move very carefully to not disturb that. WIkipedia does say be bold but I suspect others will be bold back and that leads to edit wars. Lets take the consensus route. Alex Jackl 04:36, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
The article is far too long, much of the material is repetitive, and extensive coverage is devoted to minority opinions, and issues of only very marginal significance are expounded at great length. There is frequent obfuscation between matters of opinion and matters of fact. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by DaveApter ( talk • contribs).(nb this was not an unsigned comment, it was the start of an extended section signed by me at the end - and the same goes for all the spurious 'unsigned' flags which were inserted by user:Smee in the next dozen or so paragraphs - DaveApter 08:58, 22 March 2007 (UTC))
After reviewing several other entries about various corporations, I believe this article could benefit from a standard format, and removing a lot of the "deadwood". The format that appears regularly, and appears to work well, is something like this:
Some examples you can see of this format in good use are Starbucks, [[ IBM]], H & R Block, DeVry University, and Best Buy.
The principal of undue weight to controversies has been severely violated in this article. When printed out, fully a third of the pages deal with investigations that ended with nothing found and no charges, lawsuits that were withdrawn, and then a range of controversies. I suggest this range of topics be reduced to maybe 5%, 10% tops, as this would represent more than the actual amount of this company's customers and interactions that could possibly be controversial.
For any that feel that more space is needed to illustrate an egregious wrong, I suggest employing the Wiki principal of letting the facts speak for themselves. An excellent example of this is the "Criticism" section of Best Buys entry [1], which by it's sheer conciseness hits you right between the eyes.
Louislouislewee 04:44, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
More information than the single paragraph would be useful.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by DaveApter ( talk • contribs).(It was not unsigned - see above DaveApter 08:58, 22 March 2007 (UTC))
The exhaustive list of course titles is not particularly informative. More helpful would be to have summarised headings for the various categories of courses offered, followed by a brief descriptive paragraph.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by DaveApter ( talk • contribs).(It was not unsigned - see above DaveApter 08:58, 22 March 2007 (UTC))
I agree, the full list is not very informative. Timb66 00:53, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
Since there seems to be consensus, I have gone ahead and edited this section. There was a request for a citation for the courses and I inserted the Landmark corporate web site. I assume this ok, I cannot think of anything more reliable for a list of the products offered by a company than to cite its own website. However, I am mindful that including an excessive number of links could verge on advertising. Comments? Also, I replaced sells by offers, which seems more appropriate for a course. Timb66 21:53, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
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I would agree that the surprising fact that significant numbers of individuals give their time to work in a for-profit corporation is worthy of some discussion, but the present treatment is an attempt to propagate and exaggerate marginal and uninformed opinions on the issue.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by DaveApter ( talk • contribs).(It was not unsigned - see above DaveApter 08:58, 22 March 2007 (UTC))
DaveApter 12:32, 2 April 2007 (UTC)Personally, I get a lot out of assisting at Landmark courses. It's great to see people gaining whole new areas of fulfillment in their lives where they had been totally resigned that things couldn't be different.... I am very interested in doing things that make a positive difference in the world. When I first did the Landmark Forum, I wondered how much I could trust the motivation of the company and staff. Through being around these people I came to realize that their commitment is impeccable. Landmark is a group of people who have invented a company where they can fully express themselves by contributing to others.'
I am proposing that the entire labor dispute section be removed as non-notable spin representing a minority view. There seems to be agreement by all the editors but the one editor with the aforementioned minority view. Other editors? Alex Jackl 19:56, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
== Labor investigations == === United States of America === Summaries of two investigations by the [[United States Department of Labor]] into Landmark Education's labor practices appear below. The first investigation, which took place in [[Colorado]] in [[1994]], noted violations in respect of a lack of records kept on hours worked by employees. The "Compliance Action report" section of the case checked "No" for "Further Action on This Case". An analysis in the "Narrative report" examines arguments as to whether to classify the employees as "volunteers". The final "disposition" of the case and recommendations of the wage and hour investigator remain unknown, the authorities having redacted these details{{Fact|date=March 2007}} from the public version of the narrative report.<ref name="coloradoviolations"> [http://www.rickross.com/reference/landmark/landmark233.pdf Labor Investigation], [[Colorado]], [[1994]]-[[1996]], [[United States Department of Labor]] Compliance Action Report. </ref> The second investigation, which originated in [[Texas]] in [[2003]], found violations of minimum-wage regulations (due to volunteer assistants not receiving any wages for hours worked), overtime violations (due to the same issue), and again a record-keeping violation. The "disposition" of the Texas case resulted in a transfer of the case to the District Director of the corporate office. Again, the authorities redacted the final recommendation of the wage-and-hour investigator from the public version of the report. See below for more details. ==== Colorado investigation (1994-1996) ==== A [[United States Department of Labor]] investigation into Landmark Education's labor practices took place in [[Colorado]], between January [[1994]] to [[1996]]. The initial complaint arose out of an intent to classify volunteers as employees, subject to the Fair Labor Standards act.<ref name="coloradoviolations" />. In the official Compliance Action Report the wage and hourly investigator noted: <blockquote> The strongest supporting argument for the volunteer position appears, as borne out by the interviews almost exclusively, that none of the assistants have been promised or expect compensation but work solely for their personal purpose works in activities carried on by Subject [Landmark Education] for both their pleasure or profit.<ref name="coloradoviolations" /> </blockquote> The investigator continued to state that: <blockquote> On the other hand, the strongest supporting argument for finding that the assistants are employees was ironically cited by outside counsel in ''Marshall v. Baptist Hospital'' which found that, if the assistants can be considered trainees, they displace regular employees that they would otherwise have to hire. Subject weakly counters that this, in fact, is not the case since the assistants are under direction by staff. Perhaps more importantly, the assistant activities is a common industry practice. In so stating, it should be noted that Subject is a for profit, and not a non-profit, enterprise.<ref name="coloradoviolations" /> </blockquote> The investigator's conclusion noted that "No records are kept of any hours worked by any employees." A [[1998]] article in ''[[Metro, Silicon Valley's Weekly Newspaper]]'' entitled: [http://www.metroactive.com/landmark/landmark1-9827.html "The est of Friends"] reported on labor investigations into Landmark Education's volunteers. At that time, the Department of Labor designated Landmark Education's volunteers as employees subject to the [[Fair Labor Standards Act]].{{Fact|date=February 2007}} According to the ''Metroactive'' article the Department of Labor later "dropped the issue" after Landmark Education cited its "volunteers' choice in the matter".<ref> [http://www.metroactive.com/landmark/landmark1-9827.html The est of Friends], ''Metroactive Features'', July 9-15, 1998<br> <blockquote> A case study by Harvard Business School reports that nationwide, 7,500 volunteers lend their time and services to Landmark. The corporation only pays 451 people, and only a tenth of them are Forum leaders. But here at the Forum, we are told, anything is possible. So devotees keep enrolling in courses, keep volunteering to prove their "commitment." I wonder what kind of racket the Department of Labor was running when it investigated Landmark and determined its volunteers were employees subject to the provisions of the Fair Labor Standards Act. Who's heard of volunteers for a for-profit? In the end the Department of Labor dropped the issue, leaving Landmark trumpeting about its volunteers' choice in the matter. </blockquote> </ref>. ==== Texas investigation (2003-2006) ==== The United States Federal Department of Labor investigated Landmark Education's labor practices in [[Texas]], from [[February 1]], [[2003]] to [[June 26]], [[2006]]. In the investigation, the Department of Labor found a "minimum wage violation" with regard to "Volunteer (assistants)" and noted that "Volunteers (Assistants) are not paid any wages for hours worked while performing the major duties of the firm".<ref name="texasviolations"> [http://www.rickross.com/reference/landmark/landmark234.pdf Labor Investigation], [[United States Department of Labor]], [[Texas]], [[February 1]], [[2003]] to [[June 26]], [[2006]].</ref> The Department commented: <blockquote> The assistants displace regular employees that would have to be hired. The employer could not operate with the 2-3 full-time employees per site... Interviews reveal that the employees [sic] are taking payments, registering clients, billing, training, recruiting, setting up locations, cleaning, and other duties that would have to be performed by staff if the assistants did not perform them.<ref name="texasviolations" /> </blockquote> (Landmark Education regards such assistants as volunteers, not as employees: "The firm denies that the assistants/volunteers are employees."<ref name="texasviolations" /> ) In both the Colorado and the Texas cases, as the sources cited above reveal, the Department of Labor ruled "No violations" with regard to certain sections of the law but not with regard to others. As the sources cited above also reveal, in the Colorado case the Department cited Landmark Education for not keeping records for any hours worked by employees. In the Texas investigation, the Department cited violations: *''"Minimum wage violation found. Volunteers (Assistants) are not paid any wages for hours worked while performing the major duties of the firm."''<ref name="texasviolations" /> *''"An overtime violation resulting from the firm not paying the additional half time to non-exempt salaried employees."''<ref name="texasviolations" /> *''"A record keeping violation resulted from the firm not keeping a record of hours worked for non-exempt salaried employees, and for assistants that are actually employees."''<ref name="texasviolations" /> === France === In [[1994]], the French Department of Labor investigated Landmark Education's labor practices.<ref> ''[[Voyage to the Land of the New Gurus]]'', [[May 24]], [[2004]], [[France 3]], ''[[Pieces a Conviction]]''.<br> <blockquote> Volunteers working in the headquarters of a commercial company, is it legal? Officers from General Information, in this confidential note about Landmark, were worried about undeclared associates in violation of the Labor Code. The document dates from 1994, so the situation is not new. </blockquote> </ref> The matter received mention in a [[May 24]], [[2004]] broadcast of the [[investigative report]] ("[[Voyage au pays des nouveaux gourous|Voyage to the land of the new gurus]]") on [[France 3]] [[television network]]'s show ''[[Pièces à conviction]]''; which highlighted (amongst other issues) the matter of volunteer labor. In June [[2004]], the French labor agency (''L’Inspection du Travail'') investigated labor practices regarding "volunteer workers". Shortly thereafter, Landmark Education officially ended its operations in France.<ref name="Nouvel"> [http://www.prevensectes.com/rev0505.htm#19d "At home with the gurus in neckties."], ''[[Nouvel Observateur]]'' (French newspaper), [[May 19]], [[2005]], by Marie Lemonnier.<br>Labor inspectors showed up at Landmark offices, noted the exploitation of volunteers, and made a report of undeclared employment. The action accelerated; the vise was tightened. </ref> It remains unclear what role the investigation played in the official ending of Landmark Education operations in France.<ref> [http://www.prevensectes.com/rev0505.htm#19d A short timeline.] {{fr icon}} </ref>
This section is almost entirely comprised of over-long treatments of minority opinions promoted by ill-informed or deliberately malicious commentators. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by DaveApter ( talk • contribs). (It was not unsigned - see above DaveApter 08:58, 22 March 2007 (UTC))
The underlying issue here is compliance with the undue weight provision in the Neutral Point of View policy:
NPOV says that the article should fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by a verifiable source, and should do so in proportion to the prominence of each. Now an important qualification: Articles that compare views need not give minority views as much or as detailed a description as more popular views, and may not include tiny-minority views at all (by example, the article on the Earth only very briefly refers to the Flat Earth theory, a view of a distinct minority). We should not attempt to represent a dispute as if a view held by a small minority deserved as much attention as a majority view, and views that are held by a tiny minority should not be represented except in articles devoted to those views. To give undue weight to a significant-minority view, or to include a tiny-minority view, might be misleading as to the shape of the dispute. Wikipedia aims to present competing views in proportion to their representation among experts on the subject, or among the concerned parties. This applies not only to article text, but to images, external links, categories, and all other material as well. Undue weight applies to more than just viewpoints. Just as giving undue weight to a viewpoint is not neutral, so is giving undue weight to other verifiable and sourced statements. An article should not give undue weight to any aspects of the subject, but should strive to treat each aspect with a weight appropriate to its significance to the subject. Note that undue weight can be given in several ways, including, but not limited to, depth of detail, quantity of text, prominence of placement, and juxtaposition of statements.
Many of the critical sources are partisan, many have no expertise in the subject, many of them have little if any actual knowledge of Landmark's procedures, many of them are self-interested and self-promotional, and numerically they insignificant in relation to the numbers of reputable commentators who are of the opposing view. I urge everyone to work constructively towards a consensus on this page. DaveApter 14:39, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
I agree with the NPOV principal of undue weight. As I wrote above, when I printed out the article, it consumed 24 pages. Pages 11-19 (8 pages, or one-third) were about investigations that ended with nothing found wrong, lawsuits that were later withdrawn, or a range of amazing controversies. Not only should this entire category be cut down to it's proper proportion (say, 5-10% of total), but the NPOV principal of letting the facts speak for themselves operate as it should.
I would also suggest that the editors, and particularly Smee, refrain from the nasty back-and-forth editing over minor points. For an example of a controversy that is being worked through in a collegial manner, I can recommend something I've been working on behind the scenes trying to resolve: Pacific Crest Trail. This is a case where a physical fact (the height of a mountain pass), not an opinion, cannot be agreed to. However, the editors are willing to accept a reasonable middle ground for now, and we are working to find a way to get a more accurate answer published. Louislouislewee 05:06, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
This merits at most a couple of sentences. There is much discussion and accusation on bulletin boards etc, but almost no identifiable informed authoritative figures have made this claim. On the other hand many eminent psychiatrists, clerics etc are on the record stating the converse. The most cursory examination reveals that LE fails to meet the generally accepted criteria for being a cult – in fact in most respects it is the opposite! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by DaveApter ( talk • contribs).(It was not unsigned - see above DaveApter 14:39, 21 March 2007 (UTC))
The whole "cult accusation" drips with a Point of View designed to advance a particular agenda. Millions of people go to Starbucks every day to satisfy their particular tastes, recommend the place, even hang out there. Each year, millions of users around the world contribute their time as contributors to Wikipedia. If someone used their editing privileges to call Starbucks or Wikipedia a "cult" as a way to disparage the organizations, even if they could quote someone else's editorial point of view with reference to a book or article, such attempts to advance a Point of View would be quickly deleted from the Wikipedia pages. This whole section should be deleted. Simplyfabulous 21:01, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
Thanks Zortyl, for your contribution to the debate. I don't really understand what you mean in saying that Landmark meets Shirly harrison's criteria for being a cult: here are her tests, and my comments:
* A powerful leader who claims divinity or a special mission entrusted to him/her from above;
Doesn't apply - there is no overall leader of Landmark, it is run by an executive board which is elected annually by the shareholders, who are also the employees of the company. And certainly no-one claims divinity!
* Revealed scriptures or doctrine;
Doesn't apply - there is no doctrine or belief system, merely a set of philosophical conjectures which customers are invited to "try out and see whether they work".
* Deceptive recruitment;
Doesn't apply - prospects are invited to presentations where they find out about what goes on and what results people get, and can ask any questions they like, and then choose whether to register into a course or not. Not only that but they can choose to leave a few hours into any course and get their money back (actually two opportunities to do that in the case of the Landmark Forum).
* Totalitarianism and alienation of members from their families and/or friends;
Doesn't apply - on the contrary, many customers re-build relationships with friends and family members from whom they had become estranged.
* The use of indoctrination, by sophisticated mind-control techniques, based on the concept that once you can make a person behave the way you want, then you can make him/her believe what you want;
Doesn't apply - although many critics claim this, without much data to back it up!.
* Slave labour - that is, the use of members on fundraising or missionary activities for little or no pay to line the leader's pockets;
Doesn't apply - certainly people do assist at Landmark event (but only those who want to - about 1% of customers in any given year), but no-one's pockets are being lined (except for the customers who get the courses at much cheaper prices than they would otherwise be).
* Misuse of funds and the accumulation of wealth for personal or political purposes at the expense of members;
Doesn't apply - the modest operating profits are re-invested into the business and not distributed to the shareholders.
* Exclusivity - "we are right and everyone else is wrong".
Doesn't apply - no-one is asked to believe anything.
DaveApter 17:38, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
The same as above, but more so – this is a completely absurd accusation, which does not merit even inclusion in a serious encyclopedia article. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by DaveApter ( talk • contribs).(It was not unsigned - see above DaveApter 14:39, 21 March 2007 (UTC))
It is completely ridiculous to devote aboout a page to this issue. We have no idea what the criteria are the the compiler of the report used. It is a report about the tolerance of the Austrian government towards minority groups, not about the characteristics of the groups themselves, and LE has never had an operation in Austria anyway. The whole section should come out. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by DaveApter ( talk • contribs).(It was not unsigned - see above DaveApter 14:39, 21 March 2007 (UTC))
===== Austria ===== In Austria in 1996, the Federal Ministry of the Environment, Youth and the Family published a list of 200 groups it labelled cults (in German: ''Sekten'')<ref> "Sekten : Wissen schützt. Eine Information des Bundesministeriums für Umwelt, Jugend und Familie, Stubenbastei 5, 1010 Wien, 1996 (Sects : Knowledge protects. Information from the Federal Ministry of the Environment, Youth and the Family, Stubenbastei 5, 1010 Wien, 1996) </ref> According to the [http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2005/51539.htm International Religious Freedom Report 2005], the government of Austria had labeled Landmark Education as a "sect": <blockquote> The vast majority of groups termed "sects" by the Government are small organizations with fewer than 100 members. Among the larger groups is the Church of Scientology, with between 5,000 and 6,000 members, and the Unification Church, with approximately 700 adherents throughout the country. Other groups found in the country include Divine Light Mission, Eckankar, Hare Krishna, the Holosophic community, the Osho movement, Sahaja Yoga, Sai Baba, Sri Chinmoy, Transcendental Meditation, Landmark Education, the Center for Experimental Society Formation, Fiat Lux, Universal Life, and The Family.<ref> [http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2005/51539.htm International Religious Freedom Report 2005], [[Bureau of Democracy, Human Rights, and Labor]]. </ref> </blockquote> The [[Bureau of Democracy, Human Rights, and Labor]]'s [http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2006/71367.htm International Religious Freedom Report 2006] did not list Landmark Education in the equivalent context and there is no evidence that Landmark ever operated in Austria.
This is merely a blatant attempt to smear LE using guilt by association. There is no connection between LE and Scientlology and there never has been. No authoritative source have ever produced a convincing argument that there is. Most of the utterances on the subject are from armchair commentators who have no knowledge of Landmark. The whole section is inappropriate and should be removed. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by DaveApter ( talk • contribs).(It was not unsigned - see above DaveApter 14:39, 21 March 2007 (UTC))
The only reason to even have something about Scientology in the article is to insinuate something sinister. If we are simply drawing a comparison bewteen two courses, then why has no one put Tony Robbins, Dale Carnegie, or Dr. Phil in this article? You can find noted and reputable sources that will make those comparisons to Landmark as well. Accusations are a dime a dozen in this day of modern spin. Insinuation of danger with an intention to scare people into beleiving something has been used since the begining of civilization. Senator Joseph McCarthy, when it came to accusing half of Hollywood of being comunists and calling them up infront of the HUAC really looked convincing at the time. For that matter so did Colin Powell when he went infront of the UN Security Council making the case for WMD's. I think the only basis for having a scientology section in this article is an attempt to fabricate a reality that is simply not there. By the way, today is the 4th anniversay of the begining of the War in Iraq. Lets be cautious about this. Triplejumper 20:03, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
This section doesn't make a coherent statement and its purpose appears to be to associate LE and Scientology without asserting any concrete association. It reads like a collection of random sentences which contain the words Landmark Education and Scientology. The quotes don't draw any direct connections between the two organizations which would entail actions by LE (the subject of the article), but cite the most indirect actions of others who "compare", "suggest", and "reference". Further, the Bavarian Study quote is uninterpretable to this native speaker of English. I concur that the section should be removed. Tealwarrior 23:09, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
== Market penetration over time == This section looks like a re-hash of an old argument in the talk pages: See: "Majority opinions and minority opinions" from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Landmark_Education/Archive_2 and the later deletion of a similar section in: "Operational statistics section" : This section restores data previously deleted on questionable grounds. -- [[User:Pedant17|Pedant17]] 05:46, 1 April 2007 (UTC) The argument previously was that participation in LE programs is stagnent or waning, but the contributor hasn't come out and said that here, and instead provides evidence that this might be the case leaving such a conclusion to a reader. : Statistics can have multiple functions. These statistics, published to the web by Landmark Education, provide extracts from the set of the less spun contents of the Landmark education corporate web. -- [[User:Pedant17|Pedant17]] 05:46, 1 April 2007 (UTC) I thought the previous counter argument was pretty clear that the figures were not regularly updated on the LE website. : It might seem reasonable to assume that Landmark Education did not update its statistics on its website regularly, though I have seen no evidence of this, and one need not expect reasonable behavior from Landmark Education. On the other hand, someone with access to the Landmark Education website did and has updated that website with statistics from time to time. -- [[User:Pedant17|Pedant17]] 05:46, 1 April 2007 (UTC) ::As you inserted this section, and are keen to keep it, could you let us know what is the point you are trying to make here, please? It seems to me to simply take up quite a lot of space with some not very illuminating statistics. [[User:DaveApter|DaveApter]] 10:40, 2 April 2007 (UTC) ::: Statistics can prove useful, provided one knows their origin and degree authenticity. Statistics on the sales of tabulating machines in the 1920s would enhance any article seling with the story of IBM. Statistics on the number of converts or communicants would enhance any article on the story of Shinto in the 1930s. Landmark Education has generously "shared" with the world figures on its recruitment and scope. Unfortunately, some of those figures no longer appear on Landmark Education's web-page and have become inaccessible on the [[Internet Archive]]. Wikipedia can help! -- [[User:Pedant17|Pedant17]] 05:31, 10 April 2007 (UTC) Citing them as such seems misleading. : Misleading as to what? The statistics apparently come from Landmark Education, and appear in the article with detailed references as to their provenance and dating. An interpretation of them might mislead, but the actual statistics provide a verifiable record of what Landmark Education published and when. -- [[User:Pedant17|Pedant17]] 05:46, 1 April 2007 (UTC) :: I think this section should be removed again, and added if some consensus is reached on the talk page. [[User:Tealwarrior|Tealwarrior]] 00:14, 27 March 2007 (UTC) : If someone can produce a better-attested set of statistics, we could merge them into the article. In the meantime I suggest retaining and building on what we have available on the important topic of Landmark Education's ongoing impact on humanity over time as measured by numbers of "graduations" and by numbers of offices. -- [[User:Pedant17|Pedant17]] 05:46, 1 April 2007 (UTC) :: The lack of an update between 2002 and 2004 is evidence of not updating the site. I can think of other theories, but this is the simplest and most likely. :::The text demonstrates that someone did update the Landmark Education site between 2002 and 2004: the phrase "current 2001 numbers" became successively "current 2002 numbers" and "current 2003 numbers", as the quotes reveal. -- [[User:Pedant17|Pedant17]] 05:31, 10 April 2007 (UTC) :: I see your point that it's not misleading to say: "This is what was published and when", but then the header should be something to suggest that, rather than that these are believable indicators of market penetration. The links cited are no longer accessible either, so the verifiable part is no longer the case. Without analysis these numbers don't contribute much of anything. Perhaps citing the most recent numbers posted (1,000,000 as of 2005) would be the most generally interesting. Talk of "ongoing impact on humanity over time" seems like it's best left for the discussion page and not in the article. [[User:Tealwarrior|Tealwarrior]] 18:58, 6 April 2007 (UTC) ::: Analysis might constitute [[WP:OR | original research]]. The most recent numbers convey less if divorced from their historical equivalents. Thank you for endorsing my placing of the phrase "ongoing impact on humanity over time" on the Talk-page rather than in the article proper. -- [[User:Pedant17|Pedant17]] 05:31, 10 April 2007 (UTC) ::: The list of statistics does seem to be unnecessary. I concur that the most recent numbers would be sufficient and the most interesting. [[User:Timb66|Timb66]] 00:53, 7 April 2007 (UTC) :::: Some people maintain an interest in the past. Such people mnay sometimes read Wikipedia. Deleted text reads: <nowiki> === Market penetration over time === A quote from Charlotte Faltermeyer's 1998 article in ''Time'' magazine, as reproduced (without an attributed date) on the [http://www.wernererhard.com/wernererhardtimemagazine.htm wernererhard.com website]<ref> Retrieved [[2007-03-04]] </ref> gives a figure of 300,000 Landmark Forum-attendees since 1991. The [http://www.archive.org Internet Archive site] previously held some historical snapshots from Landmark Education's website: [http://web.archive.org/web/20000510053250/www.landmarkforum.com/articles/default.htm Landmark Education's web-site as of 10 May 2000] linked to a [http://web.archive.org/web/20000510033016/www.time.com/time/magazine/1998/dom/980316/society.the_best_of_est.3.html ''Time'' magazine page] of March 16, 1998, (Volume 151, number 10) where an article by Charlotte Faltermeyer estimated 300,000 graduates since 1991, and referred to Landmark Education's 42 offices in 11 countries. Before the owner of the http://www.landmarkeducation.com site blocked access to the information, the [[Internet Archive]]'s archive of [http://web.archive.org/web/20021005063934/www.landmarkeducation.com/display_content.jsp?top=21&mid=80&bottom=124&siteObjectID=593 Landmark Education's web-site as of 28 November 2002], in excerpting Charlotte Faltermeyer's ''Time'' magazine article of March 1998, claimed approximately 600,000 "seekers" as having taken the Landmark Forum since 1991, and referred to Landmark Education's 60 offices in 21 countries ("[u]pdated to reflect current 2001 numbers"). The Internet Archive record of this infomation became unavailable on the Web at some time between [[4 March]] 2007 (when the information again became part of the Wikipedia article on [[Landmark Education]]) and [[7 April]] 2007). Before the owner of the http://www.landmarkeducation.com site blocked access to the information, the [[Internet Archive]]'s archive of [http://web.archive.org/web/20030625104924/www.landmarkeducation.com/display_content.jsp?top=21&mid=80&bottom=124&siteObjectID=593 Landmark Education's web-site as of 29 July 2003], in excerpting Charlotte Faltermeyer's ''Time'' magazine article of March 1998, claimed approximately 600,000 "seekers" as having taken the Landmark Forum since 1991, and referred to Landmark Education's 60 offices in 24 countries ("[u]pdated to reflect current 2002 numbers"). The Internet Archive record of this infomation became unavailable on the Web at some time between [[4 March]] 2007 (when the information again became part of the Wikipedia article on [[Landmark Education]]) and [[7 April]] 2007). Before the owner of the http://www.landmarkeducation.com site blocked access to the information, the [[Internet Archive]]'s archive of [http://web.archive.org/web/20031212204155/www.landmarkeducation.com/display_content.jsp?top=21&mid=80&bottom=124&siteObjectID=593 Landmark Education's web-site as of 10 June 2004], in excerpting Charlotte Faltermeyer's ''Time'' magazine article of March 1998, claimed approximately 600,000 "seekers" as having taken the Landmark Forum since 1991, and referred to Landmark Education's 58 offices in 26 countries ("[u]pdated to reflect current 2003 numbers"). The Internet Archive record of this infomation became unavailable on the Web at some time between [[4 March]] 2007 (when the information again became part of the Wikipedia article on [[Landmark Education]]) and [[7 April]] 2007). Before the owner of the http://www.landmarkeducation.com site blocked access tothe information, the [[Internet Archive]]'s archive of [http://web.archive.org/web/20040220191214/www.landmarkeducation.com/display_content.jsp?top=21&mid=80&bottom=124&siteObjectID=593 Landmark Education's web-site as of 1 April 2005], in excerpting Charlotte Faltermeyer's ''Time'' magazine article of March 1998, claimed approximately 725,000 Landmark Forum attendees since 1991, and 58 offices in 26 countries. The Internet Archive record of this infomation became unavailable on the Web at some time between [[4 March]] 2007 (when the information again became part of the Wikipedia article on [[Landmark Education]]) and [[7 April]] 2007). Landmark Education's web-site as of [[7 February]] 2006, in excerpting Charlotte Faltermeyer's ''Time'' magazine article of March 1998, claimed approximately 758,000 "seekers" as having taken the Landmark Forum since 1991, and referred to Landmark Education's 58 offices in 26 countries ("[u]pdated to reflect current 2004 numbers"). [http://www.landmarkeducation.com/display_content.jsp?top=21&mid=80&bottom=124&siteObjectID=593 Landmark Education's web-site as of [[7 April]] 2007], in excerpting Charlotte Faltermeyer's ''Time'' magazine article of March 1998, claimed "approximately 1,000,000" "seekers" as having taken the Landmark Forum since 1991, and referred to Landmark Education's 51 offices in 25 countries ("[u]pdated to reflect current 2005 numbers").
Landmark Education states variously that "More than 880,000"<ref> http://www.landmarkeducation.com/menu.jsp?top=26&mid=655 "Articles about Landmark Education" retrieved [2007-04-09]] </ref> "approximately 1,000,000"<ref> http://www.landmarkeducation.com/display_content.jsp?top=21&mid=80&bottom=124&siteObjectID=593,"Time Magazine excerpt" retrieved [2007-04-09]] </ref> or "almost [1,000,000]" people have taken part in its introductory program, "The Landmark Forum" since 1991.<ref> [http://www.landmarkeducation.com/display_content.jsp?top=26&mid=659 Landmark Education For the Media], Landmark Education website, retrieval: [[2007-04-09]] </ref>
As I've said above, there are controversies but the prominence given to them in the article is out of all proportion to the number of people holding these views or the quality of the evidence to surpport them.
People who have an agenda of using this article to propagate damaging fallacious stories about Landmark frequently defend their edits by referring to the “reliable sources” on which their edits are based.
But on examining the references, we see that many of them are highly questionable:
Samways has not observed the conduct of any Landmark courses,
and her entirely speculative comments are based on impressions gained from the comments of self-selected individuals who contacted her with complaints.
The "Psychogroups and Cults in Denmark", mentions Landmark almost as an aside and there is no suggestion that the comment is based on anything other than hearsay.
The paragraph about Sweden establishes no more than that public interest declined after the airing of a couple of sensationalistic TV programs, but we have no idea of the fairness or otherwise of the treatment in these programs.
The term cult has several distinct but related meanings, not all of which are pejorative (and this problem is compounded when a foreign language report is cited, without a sense of the precise nuances of the word in that tongue). Detractors often try to dig up references where the term has been applied in what may well have been a non-pejorative sense, in order to smear by association. This applies specifically to the Belgian, German and Austrian citations. There is no indication of who compiled these reports, what criteria they used, or what level of examination was applied.
There are two instances quoted of attempts to sue Landmark for allegedly prompting a mental breakdown. Apart from the possibility of these cases being opportunistically motivated, and the fact that the courts did not uphold the contention that Landmark could be established as a cause, two cases out of almost a million is clearly statistically insignificant (and in any event is vanishingly smaller than the number of instances that would be expected from a random sample of this size drawn from the population at large). And incidentally, neither of these cases actually reference the section heading of “brainwashing”.
-- Pedant17 03:38, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
The Lell reference is simply a subjective unsubstantiated opinion of one customer made in a book he wrote.
See above, but this reference is particularly spurious, as the focus of that report is nothing to do with evaluating the groups mentioned, but is making a case for the tolerant nature of the Austrian state in accommodating divergent beliefs.
There is no connection between Scientology and Landmark, and attempts to pretend that there is is merely deliberate scaremongering.
Scientology is religion and has a dogma that we are Thetans from outer space who will be liberated when we re-connect with our Thetan nature.
Here for reference the latest undeleted version of the text as discussed below: -- Pedant17 03:38, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
Scientology
In 1992 the Church of Scientology (which has the classification of a religious organization in certain jurisdictions, such as that of the United States of America, but not in others) included Werner Erhard, EST (Erhard Seminars Training) and "The Forum" on a list of "Suppressive Persons and Groups". [1] [2]
Scientology has a special procedure that new Scientologists must go through if they have previously participated in either Erhard Seminars Training or in the Landmark Forum. Scientologists refer to the procedure as the "Est Repair Rundown". [3]
The German Stern (magazine) has compared Landmark Education to the Church of Scientology. [4] The Frankfurter Neue Presse, stated that: "They are suspected of having connections with the Scientology Church." [5]
In 2003 a Bavarian Study on Scientology compared the practices of Landmark Education and of Scientology. The objective of the description and assessment of the Scientology and Landmark organizations was the investigation of the psychic, physical and social effects of the psycho- and social-techniques applied by those organizations respectively upon members and participants. The third objective also included the presentation of legal problems, conflicts or violations by the two organizations, along with pointers as to possible paths of resolution. [6]
In 2004, Mona Vasquez appeared in the documentary " Voyage to the Land of the New Gurus" addressing what she saw as extensive and precise similarities between Scientology terminology and the jargon utilized by Landmark Education. [7] A member of Scientology for seven years, Vasquez wrote the book Et Satan créa la secte [Satan Created the Cult: Memoirs of an escapee].
In 2006, Susan J. Palmer discussed Landmark Education at a CESNUR conference. She referenced a statement by journalist Martin Mireille who had stated that Landmark Education is "a branch of Scientology". However, in Palmer's remarks, she rejects this assertion. [8].
The first two references, from the Scientology organisation itself, merely demonstrate that Scientology is antagonistic to Landmark, and do nothing to demonstrate any similarities.
The third one is merely an opinion expressed in a popular magazine article.
The fourth is a study which compared the two (but omitting to mention the conclusion – which was that they were unrelated and that there were considerable differences).
The fifth is a personal opinion expressed by someone who positions herself as a Scientology expert, but who appears to have no particular knowledge of Landmark Eduation.
And the sixth is a reference to someone who was actually stating that there was no connection!
All five references are merely quotes of opinions expressed by people of no particular expertise, in magazine and newspaper articles.
The section as it stands gives excessive weight to a handful of clergy who have voiced criticisms based on hearsay, rumour or speculation, relative to the large number who have gone on record giving positive accounts, based on personal observation. DaveApter 10:40, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
This strikes me as adding very little value to the article for the space it takes, and is actually misleading. Presumably the intention of it is to imply that this is a slippery operation which is always changing its colours? But the first two lines are entirely distinct companies with different ownership and product lines (but related - yes I know, and the point has already been made - several times). The next one is the name incorporated, and changed a week later - which is quite standard procedure. The next one was traded for four months before they had a re-think about it. The next one is not really a name-change at all, just a re-structure from an Inc to a LLC. So what? DaveApter 10:40, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
I agree, and I suggest the table be removed. Timb66 01:52, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
Agreed. Making change. Alex Jackl 23:22, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
The table provided a valuable summary of the various forms in which the Landmark Education tradition operated. The dating militated against misleading. Speculation about the "intention" does not provide good grounds for suppression. -- Pedant17 03:38, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
I request editors take a look at what I did on the page- I did a cleanup of material and references that were non-notable or senteces that were full of weasel-words. FOr instance the section on Religion that inmplied some contraversy in the first semtemce and then followed by a bunch of references that merely imply some people were watching the organixzation and half the references being positive ones. And when list the positive references someone put in that these were "opinion as opposed to thoughtful theological analysis" implying the preceding references were more scholarly in some way. It doesn't go far enough as we can see in the above "Examination of Sources" section but I didn't want to be too bold too quickly. Better to slowly shift the article to NPOV and get agremeement than wholsale changes. Please let me know if anyone has any thought on those changes. Alex Jackl 02:08, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
Any charter can claim or state anything. That doesn't necessarily make something valid outside that scope. To state that a charter "claims" or "states' or "professes" provides a more accurate and encyclopedic account of such matters. -- Pedant17 05:46, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
The links cited are no longer accessible either, so the verifiable part is no longer the case. Without analysis these numbers don't contribute much of anything. Perhaps citing the most recent numbers posted (1,000,000 as of 2005) would be the most generally interesting. Talk of "ongoing impact on humanity over time" seems like it's best left for the discussion page and not in the article. Tealwarrior 18:58, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
Hello, pedant17, and thank you for your contributions to this discussion.
You have made a large number of comments on this talk page,
but are they serious attempts to engage with the debate and reach consensus on the structure and content of an article which meets wikipedia policies and is useful to the general reader, or are they aimed at justifying an article which propagates your own personal viewpoint on the subject?
You assert several times that it is a Minority viewpoint that “that Landmark Education represents a worthy and worthwhile endeavor”. On what possible evidence or information do you base this extraordinary opinion?
This is important because it relates to the wikipedia policies on NPOV and Undue weight.
This is how it seems to me:
In round figures, about 1,000,000 have done the Landmark Forum
Surveys from several reputable organisations consistently report 93% - 95% “highly satisfied” or some such. It’s reasonable to assume that most of the remaining 5-7% are broadly satisfied to some degree, leaving say 1% who are actively hostile.
This is borne out by the large number of Landmark customers who recommend the program to their friends, and the large proportion who take further courses. They wouldn’t do either if they were not impressed.
In other words we seem to have about 990,000 in favor and 10,000 against, from those who actually have first-hand experience. (and of course we should not get hung up on my 1% estimate – perhaps it’s 2% or even 3%?). Then we have people who haven’t done it, but have formed an opinion on the basis of hearsay, rumour or speculation. How many of them are there who are strongly antagonistic? It stretches credulity to imagine that there are more than say another 10,000. (and of course there are also those who haven’t done any courses but have positive opinions).
Then we have a few dozen journalists who have written negative articles (and another few dozen who have written positive articles).
And finally we have half a dozen self-appointed “cult experts” who have a vested interest in stirring up paranoia, and who show remarkably little knowledge of what Landmark actuallly does and how it does it.
What are your estimates for the size of the various populations of differing opinions, and what is the data and reasoning on which you base them? DaveApter 16:13, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Landmark_Education/Archive_2#Majority_opinions_and_minority_opinions And I don't accept your various populations as useful in assessing the overall picture. The issues of customer-satisfaction and culthood do not cover the full scope of Landmark Education. I would suggest we assess the pop-culture phenomenon in pop-culture terms as well. -- Pedant17 06:36, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
I have restored the well-researched criticism sections that must have taken a lot of work to assemble but were removed by people acting on behalf of Landmark. I have read this page but cannot see any concensus (except among the Landmark people) for their removal. Arguments by analogy are not always appropriate, but the above statements by Dave Apter really beg for it. By analogy, Dave is saying that, for example
i. only members of the LAPD who were personally involved in beating Rodney King can offer a valid opinion on any matter to do with Rodney King;
ii. only guards of former concentration camps (whether in the Boer War, WWII, 50's Malaysia, or elsewhere entirely) are capable of knowledgeable comment about said concentration camps;
iii. only members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints can have a valid opinion on the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints;
iv. only personnel with US Marine training can have a valid viewpoint on the US Marines, etc. etc.
Obviously Landmark is a much smaller phenomenon than e.g. the Church of Scientology and fewer outsiders would have heard of it. There is a good chance that more people have done the courses than have heard of Landmark but have a negative opinion. In fact, the high-pressure tactics used by Landmark believers to attempt to get their friends to cough up for the courses (e.g. the fact that a refuser will end up on the periphery of or completely ostracised by a group dominated by believers) makes this all the more likely, since in a group taken or formed by the Landmark meme only those who are willing to make waves and risk not going with the flow will feel able to avoid the courses.
The Church of Scientology would almost certainly be able to make the same argument: our members outnumber our critics. Most people just don't have any interest, and why should they? That is, the arguments regarding size [sic] of various populations are specious and not worthy of any serious response. ER Talk 08:54, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
Thanks Esther for your contributions to this discussion. However you seem to have misunderstood the points I was making.
Firstly, the examples you give bear no resemblance to my position: to take just the first one, it is clearly the case that a number of groups could have "valid opinion" on the beating of Rodney King - a) Rodney King himself, b)eye-witnesses at the scene, c) those who had seen the events on videotape, d)those who had received accounts directly from any of the foregoing. Any of the above might qualify as a Reliable Source for the purposes of a Wikipedia article. Neither am I questioning the "validity" of the opinions held by individuals whose sources of information were less direct than these, but it is unlikely that such opinions would count as sources of factual data for an encyclopedia article.
Secondly, your comment that "the arguments regarding size [sic] of various populations are specious" shows a complete lack of understanding of Wikepedia's Neutral Point of View policy as it relates to "facts about opinions", which states:
The policy requires that, where there are or have been conflicting views, these should be presented fairly. None of the views should be given undue weight or asserted as being the truth, and all significant published points of view are to be presented, not just the most popular one...
Background is provided on who believes what and why, and which view is more popular. Detailed articles might also contain the mutual evaluations of each viewpoint, but studiously refrain from stating which is better. One can think of unbiased writing as the fair, analytical description of all relevant sides of a debate. When bias towards one particular point of view can be detected, the article needs to be fixed...
Where we might want to state an opinion, we convert that opinion into a fact by attributing the opinion to someone... The reference requires an identifiable and objectively quantifiable population or, better still, a name (with the clear implication that the named individual should be a recognized authority)...
NPOV says that the article should fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by a verifiable source, and should do so in proportion to the prominence of each. Now an important qualification: Articles that compare views should not give minority views as much or as detailed a description as more popular views, and may not include tiny-minority views at all.
How does all this relate to the article? Clearly some individuals are of the opinion that Landmark is a "cult" (which begs the questions of what precisely they mean by that), and some are not; some are of the opinion that Landmark is a cynical money-making operation, and some are not; some are of the opinion that it produces impressive objectively measurable results for the majority of its customers, and some are not; some are of the opinion that significant numbers of its customers are harmed in some way, and some strongly doubt that; and some think that those who assist at Landmark events have been duped into lining someone else's pockets, while others do not.
All of the above are legitimate subjects for discussion in the controversies section, but within the bounds of the policy.
How can we decide what weight to give the various views without some estimate of the various population sizes? And note the qualification that in the case of an opinion attributed to a name it "should be a recognized authority". Critical scrutiny of the sources for much of the negative material which has been introduced into the article reveals that many of them fall far short of these standards.
And finally, for the avoidance of doubt, I am not editing "on behalf of Landmark" - I am editing with a clear commitment to a quality article which meets Wikipedia guidelines and policies rather than one which acts as a soapbox for certain extreme POVs. DaveApter 10:52, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
Dear EstherRice. I can only speak for myself when I assure you that I am not "acting on behalf of Landmark." I am acting to ensure NPOV in this article. You write: "I have read this page but cannot see any concensus (except among the Landmark people) for their removal." I imagine the majority of editors for this page, if not all, have either done Landmark courses or have some specific knowledge through talking to people who have. As you say, who else would be interested enough to bother? And that is fine: I expect that substantial edits to most Wiki pages are only made by those who have some direct knowledge or interest.
Your comments indicate that you fall in the second group that I mentioned and you express a view that is not neutral. That is fine. I am also not neutral. I did the Landmark Forum 15 years ago and still regard at as one of the most important things I have done. I also do not consider myself to have been brainwashed. On occasion I have told people about Landmark if I think they might be interested, and several have done courses. Most have found it very rewarding and none have found it to be a negative experience.
But my point is not to debate the merits of Landmark, as enjoyable as that might be. You obviously have negative experiences and I have positive ones. And I know that people who have done the Forum, particularly recently, can be very pushy. But Wikipedia is not the place to have these discussions. I have not looked, but I expect there are websites where people have vigorous discussions about Landmark.
The purpose of Dave's comments, I think, was to point out that the hostile view is a minority among those who have some direct knowledge.
To answer your analogies, of course people who have not done Landmark courses are entitled to have an opinion, but they must have some knowledge of it.
I am not entitled to voice an opinion about Rodney King if I have never heard of him (actually, his story did make the news here in Australia). So let us consider those who know something about Landmark, either through having done courses or knowing those who have. You write: "There is a good chance that more people have done the courses than have heard of Landmark but have a negative opinion." I agree. But what about those who have heard of Landmark and have a positive opinion?! I would claim they are far more numerous than those with negative opinions. That is certainly the case among my friends and family, many of whom have not done any Landmark courses but who happily acknowledge the benefits to me.
I see that while I have been writing this, you have reversed my reversion. I guess I should have written this before making the reversion, sorry. So now please read my comments and respond. I will repeat my reversion because I think you should have waited for some discussion before making your changes. I don't think that it is reasonable for you to make substantial changes without discussing them here and attempting to reach consensus.
Finally, your remark that you "cannot see any concensus (except among the Landmark people)" deserves further comment. Surely those who have done Landmark courses are well placed to comment on them.
Is it is really reasonable to exclude us when deciding on what is and is not concensus? Only if you think that participating in Landmark courses has made us unable to be objective.
That is of course possible, and I might agree there could be grounds for concern if all the "Landmark people" editing this page had done the Forum very recently and were fresh from the process. I cannot speak for the others, but I did the Forum 15 years ago.
I have done a few other courses since then, but the last was three years ago. Surely that is enough time for concerns about brainwashing to subside?
Isn't it possible that for some people (and I would say most), the Landmark experience is positive, whether as a participant or not?
That is precisely the question that Dave was asking. Thanks for reading this far, Timb66 10:19, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
I was going to comment on all of Pedant17 and EstherRice's comments but I have found a theme and it is that same theme that caused all the isuses when Smee was editing here.
If you look at the comments above there is a background of looking at Wikipedia as some kind of debate page- some place where if there are some citations about something or if a journalist said something then the default is that it should be in the article. That is not, IMO, the idea of an encyclopedia - citations and content must be valid and appropriate to encyclopedic content. Just because some journalist linked Scientology and Landmark (even though the connection is clearly nebulous and scholars have refuted the journalistic connection) does not mean we should include it because there is a citation. One of the stock phrases that Smee would whip out is the "these are valid, well-formed citations" as if that were a good enough reason to include something. Any suggestions on how to create aguideline to check validity. Any suggestions? Alex Jackl 13:22, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
... and should be tagged as such. Thousands of KB of highly-sourced material, meticulously sourced to reputable secondary sourced citations, has been removed unjustly. Smee 07:02, 18 April 2007 (UTC).
Including material simply because it is well sourced is not necessarily consistent with NPOV. Please address the specific points raised above. Timb66 08:25, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
I agree that the "unbalanced" tag should probably stay for the momen and I have reinstated it. Hopefully it will attract new editors who can bring a fresh view. But the "advertising" tag remains to be justified and I have removed it. Once again: can one of these 3 editors please address the specific points raised above? And please note that being well sourced is not a sufficient reason for inclusion if the material represnets a minority view. Timb66 12:08, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
Just to clarify, my reason for keeping the unbalanced tag is because I think the article gives too much weight to minority negative views. Timb66 22:12, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
Smee, looking at the history of this article, it is clear that you have spent an enormous amount of time and effort collating these negative comments. I can understand that you are reluctant to accept deletion of that material but NPOV guidelines are clear: undue weight should not be given to a minority option. Timb66 09:44, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
As it stands, the article is pretty messy. The discussion is going in circles. There was a good suggestion at the top of this page by DaveApter. I suggest we adopt it. Timb66 09:44, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
Smee, it would be great if you would actually engage constructively with the debate here instead of just parroting the same assertions over and over again and simply ignoring points made by other contributors which do not coincide with your viewpoint.
You have not seriously addressed the questions that have been raised regarding the quality, verifiablity and relevance of many of the sources you have cited. Simply saying over and over again that they are "meticulously sourced to reputable secondary sourced citations" does not make that the case. In many instances they fall far short of the standards one would expect to justify an encyclopedia entry. When we actually look at the sources you have drawn from, we find that many of them are one or more of the following:
Many editors (with no axe to grind either way) have pointed out that this article is seriously deficient in the amount of meaningful information about what Landmark actually does, and this certainly remains the case. DaveApter 16:35, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
Motivated people esp those motivated by financial gain can make an extended effort to write and maintain pages favorable to them Through a mixture of hardheadiness, will and perhaps a number of persons they can employ round the clock.
I'm not familar with this subject at all but just a cursory reading of this page I can see how skewed it is in favor of LE. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.22.78.184 ( talk • contribs)
Oh yes, how convenient. This unsigned comment is either from a sockpuppet, or we are being asked to take seriously the comments of someone who admits being completely unfamiliar with the subject and who has only given the page a cursory reading.
And then asserts with no evidence that editors of this page are employed by Landmark?
Certainly I am not and have never been, nor do I know anyone who is or has. Instead, I wonder why some people spend such an enormous amount of time arguing their case against Landmark.
They must have had a very bad experience,
which I am quite willing to recognise, but I wish they would stop trying to push their minority views.
If my friend drowned in a pool, does that give me the right to skew the article on swimming by expanding the section on risks to give every negative opinion I can find on the Web?
Timb66 12:13, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
Smee, can you please clarify what you mean by "contractual relationships"? The unsigned post alleged that some editors are employed and receive financial gain. Are you also alleging this? If not, please be precise. It is clearly important to clarify any conflicts of interest. thanks Timb66 03:07, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
See archived comments by previously un-involved editor, User:Nposs, here: Talk:Landmark Education/Archive 6. Smee 05:23, 24 April 2007 (UTC).
There is a constant theme to all this that involves how well-sourced the non-noptable material is and how much the "public deserves to see all sides and then the Wikipedia readers can figure it out".
Let's stop the edit warring please... Alex Jackl 16:48, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
Esther Rice completely ignored the debate happening on this page and wiped out most of the edits and cleaning of the page that has happened since the page was protected.
It is for that kind of stuff that the page was protected in the past! Let's work together and not start an edit war. Alex Jackl 17:08, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
I think there was majority consensus for that removal, although it was obviously not unaminous. To repeat the argument: material should not be included, no matter how reputably sourced, if it gives undue weight to a minority point of view. Timb66 03:11, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
Wow guys, wow. So interesting. Score one for the advertising / marketing / public relations department... Smee 14:05, 30 April 2007 (UTC).
Look again- it just isn't labeled in big letters. Score one for balance. Alex Jackl 15:38, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Once again this discussion has grown extensively, and once again there has been disappointingly little progress towards consensus.
I have archived the page, and kept the 'Summary' section, which I still hope will provide a basis for an improved article.
I have also copied over the currently active discussion from the last few days to preserve continuity. DaveApter 14:19, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
Once again this talk page has got over-long, so I have archived it. Looking through the archived pages, it’s pretty clear that the discussion has gone round in circles with the same points being made over and over again, and more time being spent on re-iterating editors’ own viewpoints than seriously working towards a consensus on the structure of the article.
At present the article is a total mess, as a result of the POV-pushing and edit-warring over the last seven months. It is also much longer than it should be.
My request is that we work together to establish a consensus on this page regarding a desirable structure for the article, and then find acceptable references to build the page in that form.
I propose that an acceptable encyclopedia article on Landmark Education would provide readers with informative content regarding:
Does anyone disagree with this as a satisfactory ‘big-picture’ overview of what the article should deal with? (Please start the discussion in a new section below to preserve the flow of this overview paragraph – thanks).
My suggestions for how these areas could be dealt with are:
This section of the article should address the following questions:
(again - please discuss below).
This section as it stands is way over-large and violates the WP:NPOV policy by giving undue weight to minority views, and by reporting opinions as though they were facts.
A “controversy” by its nature is a matter of conflicting opinions.
What are the disputed matters? I’d say they are:
The concerns over the Assisting Programs would be quite properly discussed under the latter two headings.
The fact that some commentators have applied adjectives such as “cult” and “brainwashing” is not in itself informative, unless we know what they mean by the words, and what evidence they draw on to justify the description.
It seems to me that the majority of those expressing critical opinions on Landmark Education actually know very little about it, and quite disproportionate weight is given to uninformed speculation and hearsay. DaveApter 11:29, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
Caltechdoc 18:56, 22 March 2007 (UTC): I am a relatively new editor and am fascinated by the controversy generated by the Landmark Education article. As a research scientist interested in using Wikipedia as a resource, it is a bit disconcerting that so much controversy shows up around some topics. It takes only a moment of analysis to see that one particular editor, "Smee", has an axe to grind, and dedicates a fair amount of his/her day to grinding it. The questions about Landmark Education are valid - but the data is obscured by this particular editor. I have myself taken a number of "growth programs" and done a degree of research into them. The Landmark programs are clearly among the best by several measures - size of operations, number of participants, and numerous reports by participants of positive results, as well a variety of scholarly research papers completed (I have read several, from USC and from Harvard).
Re: The Harvard and Reebok Heads: There is a current "local-only" video clips web page that interviews briefly the Harvard Researcher and others who share their experience of Landmark, also a video intro and bits of the course. It cannot be accessed through the main Landmark website, but it is at www.landmarkeducation.com/wdcintro and select what participants say and see it in action for the video clips. They are apparently trying out the video intro locally to get the kinks out until it becomes accessible through their website. One of the "cubes" to click on is Prof. Emeritus Michael Jensen of Harvard business school who conducted a formal study on it, and Paul Fireman, ex CEO of Reebok. I hope I've put this comment in the right place--my first time. 68.100.13.29 19:27, 13 April 2007 (UTC)observer
Landmark is clearly not a cult, does not use brainwashing, and is a fine program that focuses on making a difference in people's lives. My sense is that the rate of negative outcomes is low, likely commensurate with the rate in any academic program (Caltech for example has a noticible rate of psychological trauma among its students - does this make Caltech a dangerous cult, or a danger to society? Caltech is clearly one of the finest scientific institutions on the planet.)
My sense is that if "Smee" is not allowed to alter the Landmark Education site for some period, the controversy would settle and we would converge on a balanced and useful article.
That statement is not worth very much if you can't sign; it's also rather impolite to suggest that a user who has worked so hard on a page suddenly stop participating. ER Talk 16:58, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
Lets- I quote from WP:LEAD:
When writing a lead section about ideas and concepts (such as "truth"), it can be helpful to introduce the topic as follows:
1. Context - describing the category or field in which the idea belongs. 2. Characterization - what the term refers to as used in the given context. 3. Explanation - deeper meaning and background. 4. Compare and contrast - how it relates to other topics, if appropriate.
5. Criticism - include criticism if there has been significant, notable criticism.
It also states that for larger articles (30,000 words plus) the length should be a maximum of 3 to 4 paragraphs. The first part of the current intor describes what we are talking about, the second describes some history and its predecessors, the third explains what it does and how that fits with some of its other sibling/subsidiary entities, and the fourth addresses criticisms.
There is a large contingent of us (see above discussions) that think the intro is already overly leaning towards talking about the far past too much and think MOST of the criticism stuff is pretty non-notable and minority POV driven. The fact is this intro was gotten to voer weeks and weeks of patient effort by editors to keep it balanced. I think we should move very carefully to not disturb that. WIkipedia does say be bold but I suspect others will be bold back and that leads to edit wars. Lets take the consensus route. Alex Jackl 04:36, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
The article is far too long, much of the material is repetitive, and extensive coverage is devoted to minority opinions, and issues of only very marginal significance are expounded at great length. There is frequent obfuscation between matters of opinion and matters of fact. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by DaveApter ( talk • contribs).(nb this was not an unsigned comment, it was the start of an extended section signed by me at the end - and the same goes for all the spurious 'unsigned' flags which were inserted by user:Smee in the next dozen or so paragraphs - DaveApter 08:58, 22 March 2007 (UTC))
After reviewing several other entries about various corporations, I believe this article could benefit from a standard format, and removing a lot of the "deadwood". The format that appears regularly, and appears to work well, is something like this:
Some examples you can see of this format in good use are Starbucks, [[ IBM]], H & R Block, DeVry University, and Best Buy.
The principal of undue weight to controversies has been severely violated in this article. When printed out, fully a third of the pages deal with investigations that ended with nothing found and no charges, lawsuits that were withdrawn, and then a range of controversies. I suggest this range of topics be reduced to maybe 5%, 10% tops, as this would represent more than the actual amount of this company's customers and interactions that could possibly be controversial.
For any that feel that more space is needed to illustrate an egregious wrong, I suggest employing the Wiki principal of letting the facts speak for themselves. An excellent example of this is the "Criticism" section of Best Buys entry [1], which by it's sheer conciseness hits you right between the eyes.
Louislouislewee 04:44, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
More information than the single paragraph would be useful.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by DaveApter ( talk • contribs).(It was not unsigned - see above DaveApter 08:58, 22 March 2007 (UTC))
The exhaustive list of course titles is not particularly informative. More helpful would be to have summarised headings for the various categories of courses offered, followed by a brief descriptive paragraph.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by DaveApter ( talk • contribs).(It was not unsigned - see above DaveApter 08:58, 22 March 2007 (UTC))
I agree, the full list is not very informative. Timb66 00:53, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
Since there seems to be consensus, I have gone ahead and edited this section. There was a request for a citation for the courses and I inserted the Landmark corporate web site. I assume this ok, I cannot think of anything more reliable for a list of the products offered by a company than to cite its own website. However, I am mindful that including an excessive number of links could verge on advertising. Comments? Also, I replaced sells by offers, which seems more appropriate for a course. Timb66 21:53, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
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I would agree that the surprising fact that significant numbers of individuals give their time to work in a for-profit corporation is worthy of some discussion, but the present treatment is an attempt to propagate and exaggerate marginal and uninformed opinions on the issue.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by DaveApter ( talk • contribs).(It was not unsigned - see above DaveApter 08:58, 22 March 2007 (UTC))
DaveApter 12:32, 2 April 2007 (UTC)Personally, I get a lot out of assisting at Landmark courses. It's great to see people gaining whole new areas of fulfillment in their lives where they had been totally resigned that things couldn't be different.... I am very interested in doing things that make a positive difference in the world. When I first did the Landmark Forum, I wondered how much I could trust the motivation of the company and staff. Through being around these people I came to realize that their commitment is impeccable. Landmark is a group of people who have invented a company where they can fully express themselves by contributing to others.'
I am proposing that the entire labor dispute section be removed as non-notable spin representing a minority view. There seems to be agreement by all the editors but the one editor with the aforementioned minority view. Other editors? Alex Jackl 19:56, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
== Labor investigations == === United States of America === Summaries of two investigations by the [[United States Department of Labor]] into Landmark Education's labor practices appear below. The first investigation, which took place in [[Colorado]] in [[1994]], noted violations in respect of a lack of records kept on hours worked by employees. The "Compliance Action report" section of the case checked "No" for "Further Action on This Case". An analysis in the "Narrative report" examines arguments as to whether to classify the employees as "volunteers". The final "disposition" of the case and recommendations of the wage and hour investigator remain unknown, the authorities having redacted these details{{Fact|date=March 2007}} from the public version of the narrative report.<ref name="coloradoviolations"> [http://www.rickross.com/reference/landmark/landmark233.pdf Labor Investigation], [[Colorado]], [[1994]]-[[1996]], [[United States Department of Labor]] Compliance Action Report. </ref> The second investigation, which originated in [[Texas]] in [[2003]], found violations of minimum-wage regulations (due to volunteer assistants not receiving any wages for hours worked), overtime violations (due to the same issue), and again a record-keeping violation. The "disposition" of the Texas case resulted in a transfer of the case to the District Director of the corporate office. Again, the authorities redacted the final recommendation of the wage-and-hour investigator from the public version of the report. See below for more details. ==== Colorado investigation (1994-1996) ==== A [[United States Department of Labor]] investigation into Landmark Education's labor practices took place in [[Colorado]], between January [[1994]] to [[1996]]. The initial complaint arose out of an intent to classify volunteers as employees, subject to the Fair Labor Standards act.<ref name="coloradoviolations" />. In the official Compliance Action Report the wage and hourly investigator noted: <blockquote> The strongest supporting argument for the volunteer position appears, as borne out by the interviews almost exclusively, that none of the assistants have been promised or expect compensation but work solely for their personal purpose works in activities carried on by Subject [Landmark Education] for both their pleasure or profit.<ref name="coloradoviolations" /> </blockquote> The investigator continued to state that: <blockquote> On the other hand, the strongest supporting argument for finding that the assistants are employees was ironically cited by outside counsel in ''Marshall v. Baptist Hospital'' which found that, if the assistants can be considered trainees, they displace regular employees that they would otherwise have to hire. Subject weakly counters that this, in fact, is not the case since the assistants are under direction by staff. Perhaps more importantly, the assistant activities is a common industry practice. In so stating, it should be noted that Subject is a for profit, and not a non-profit, enterprise.<ref name="coloradoviolations" /> </blockquote> The investigator's conclusion noted that "No records are kept of any hours worked by any employees." A [[1998]] article in ''[[Metro, Silicon Valley's Weekly Newspaper]]'' entitled: [http://www.metroactive.com/landmark/landmark1-9827.html "The est of Friends"] reported on labor investigations into Landmark Education's volunteers. At that time, the Department of Labor designated Landmark Education's volunteers as employees subject to the [[Fair Labor Standards Act]].{{Fact|date=February 2007}} According to the ''Metroactive'' article the Department of Labor later "dropped the issue" after Landmark Education cited its "volunteers' choice in the matter".<ref> [http://www.metroactive.com/landmark/landmark1-9827.html The est of Friends], ''Metroactive Features'', July 9-15, 1998<br> <blockquote> A case study by Harvard Business School reports that nationwide, 7,500 volunteers lend their time and services to Landmark. The corporation only pays 451 people, and only a tenth of them are Forum leaders. But here at the Forum, we are told, anything is possible. So devotees keep enrolling in courses, keep volunteering to prove their "commitment." I wonder what kind of racket the Department of Labor was running when it investigated Landmark and determined its volunteers were employees subject to the provisions of the Fair Labor Standards Act. Who's heard of volunteers for a for-profit? In the end the Department of Labor dropped the issue, leaving Landmark trumpeting about its volunteers' choice in the matter. </blockquote> </ref>. ==== Texas investigation (2003-2006) ==== The United States Federal Department of Labor investigated Landmark Education's labor practices in [[Texas]], from [[February 1]], [[2003]] to [[June 26]], [[2006]]. In the investigation, the Department of Labor found a "minimum wage violation" with regard to "Volunteer (assistants)" and noted that "Volunteers (Assistants) are not paid any wages for hours worked while performing the major duties of the firm".<ref name="texasviolations"> [http://www.rickross.com/reference/landmark/landmark234.pdf Labor Investigation], [[United States Department of Labor]], [[Texas]], [[February 1]], [[2003]] to [[June 26]], [[2006]].</ref> The Department commented: <blockquote> The assistants displace regular employees that would have to be hired. The employer could not operate with the 2-3 full-time employees per site... Interviews reveal that the employees [sic] are taking payments, registering clients, billing, training, recruiting, setting up locations, cleaning, and other duties that would have to be performed by staff if the assistants did not perform them.<ref name="texasviolations" /> </blockquote> (Landmark Education regards such assistants as volunteers, not as employees: "The firm denies that the assistants/volunteers are employees."<ref name="texasviolations" /> ) In both the Colorado and the Texas cases, as the sources cited above reveal, the Department of Labor ruled "No violations" with regard to certain sections of the law but not with regard to others. As the sources cited above also reveal, in the Colorado case the Department cited Landmark Education for not keeping records for any hours worked by employees. In the Texas investigation, the Department cited violations: *''"Minimum wage violation found. Volunteers (Assistants) are not paid any wages for hours worked while performing the major duties of the firm."''<ref name="texasviolations" /> *''"An overtime violation resulting from the firm not paying the additional half time to non-exempt salaried employees."''<ref name="texasviolations" /> *''"A record keeping violation resulted from the firm not keeping a record of hours worked for non-exempt salaried employees, and for assistants that are actually employees."''<ref name="texasviolations" /> === France === In [[1994]], the French Department of Labor investigated Landmark Education's labor practices.<ref> ''[[Voyage to the Land of the New Gurus]]'', [[May 24]], [[2004]], [[France 3]], ''[[Pieces a Conviction]]''.<br> <blockquote> Volunteers working in the headquarters of a commercial company, is it legal? Officers from General Information, in this confidential note about Landmark, were worried about undeclared associates in violation of the Labor Code. The document dates from 1994, so the situation is not new. </blockquote> </ref> The matter received mention in a [[May 24]], [[2004]] broadcast of the [[investigative report]] ("[[Voyage au pays des nouveaux gourous|Voyage to the land of the new gurus]]") on [[France 3]] [[television network]]'s show ''[[Pièces à conviction]]''; which highlighted (amongst other issues) the matter of volunteer labor. In June [[2004]], the French labor agency (''L’Inspection du Travail'') investigated labor practices regarding "volunteer workers". Shortly thereafter, Landmark Education officially ended its operations in France.<ref name="Nouvel"> [http://www.prevensectes.com/rev0505.htm#19d "At home with the gurus in neckties."], ''[[Nouvel Observateur]]'' (French newspaper), [[May 19]], [[2005]], by Marie Lemonnier.<br>Labor inspectors showed up at Landmark offices, noted the exploitation of volunteers, and made a report of undeclared employment. The action accelerated; the vise was tightened. </ref> It remains unclear what role the investigation played in the official ending of Landmark Education operations in France.<ref> [http://www.prevensectes.com/rev0505.htm#19d A short timeline.] {{fr icon}} </ref>
This section is almost entirely comprised of over-long treatments of minority opinions promoted by ill-informed or deliberately malicious commentators. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by DaveApter ( talk • contribs). (It was not unsigned - see above DaveApter 08:58, 22 March 2007 (UTC))
The underlying issue here is compliance with the undue weight provision in the Neutral Point of View policy:
NPOV says that the article should fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by a verifiable source, and should do so in proportion to the prominence of each. Now an important qualification: Articles that compare views need not give minority views as much or as detailed a description as more popular views, and may not include tiny-minority views at all (by example, the article on the Earth only very briefly refers to the Flat Earth theory, a view of a distinct minority). We should not attempt to represent a dispute as if a view held by a small minority deserved as much attention as a majority view, and views that are held by a tiny minority should not be represented except in articles devoted to those views. To give undue weight to a significant-minority view, or to include a tiny-minority view, might be misleading as to the shape of the dispute. Wikipedia aims to present competing views in proportion to their representation among experts on the subject, or among the concerned parties. This applies not only to article text, but to images, external links, categories, and all other material as well. Undue weight applies to more than just viewpoints. Just as giving undue weight to a viewpoint is not neutral, so is giving undue weight to other verifiable and sourced statements. An article should not give undue weight to any aspects of the subject, but should strive to treat each aspect with a weight appropriate to its significance to the subject. Note that undue weight can be given in several ways, including, but not limited to, depth of detail, quantity of text, prominence of placement, and juxtaposition of statements.
Many of the critical sources are partisan, many have no expertise in the subject, many of them have little if any actual knowledge of Landmark's procedures, many of them are self-interested and self-promotional, and numerically they insignificant in relation to the numbers of reputable commentators who are of the opposing view. I urge everyone to work constructively towards a consensus on this page. DaveApter 14:39, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
I agree with the NPOV principal of undue weight. As I wrote above, when I printed out the article, it consumed 24 pages. Pages 11-19 (8 pages, or one-third) were about investigations that ended with nothing found wrong, lawsuits that were later withdrawn, or a range of amazing controversies. Not only should this entire category be cut down to it's proper proportion (say, 5-10% of total), but the NPOV principal of letting the facts speak for themselves operate as it should.
I would also suggest that the editors, and particularly Smee, refrain from the nasty back-and-forth editing over minor points. For an example of a controversy that is being worked through in a collegial manner, I can recommend something I've been working on behind the scenes trying to resolve: Pacific Crest Trail. This is a case where a physical fact (the height of a mountain pass), not an opinion, cannot be agreed to. However, the editors are willing to accept a reasonable middle ground for now, and we are working to find a way to get a more accurate answer published. Louislouislewee 05:06, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
This merits at most a couple of sentences. There is much discussion and accusation on bulletin boards etc, but almost no identifiable informed authoritative figures have made this claim. On the other hand many eminent psychiatrists, clerics etc are on the record stating the converse. The most cursory examination reveals that LE fails to meet the generally accepted criteria for being a cult – in fact in most respects it is the opposite! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by DaveApter ( talk • contribs).(It was not unsigned - see above DaveApter 14:39, 21 March 2007 (UTC))
The whole "cult accusation" drips with a Point of View designed to advance a particular agenda. Millions of people go to Starbucks every day to satisfy their particular tastes, recommend the place, even hang out there. Each year, millions of users around the world contribute their time as contributors to Wikipedia. If someone used their editing privileges to call Starbucks or Wikipedia a "cult" as a way to disparage the organizations, even if they could quote someone else's editorial point of view with reference to a book or article, such attempts to advance a Point of View would be quickly deleted from the Wikipedia pages. This whole section should be deleted. Simplyfabulous 21:01, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
Thanks Zortyl, for your contribution to the debate. I don't really understand what you mean in saying that Landmark meets Shirly harrison's criteria for being a cult: here are her tests, and my comments:
* A powerful leader who claims divinity or a special mission entrusted to him/her from above;
Doesn't apply - there is no overall leader of Landmark, it is run by an executive board which is elected annually by the shareholders, who are also the employees of the company. And certainly no-one claims divinity!
* Revealed scriptures or doctrine;
Doesn't apply - there is no doctrine or belief system, merely a set of philosophical conjectures which customers are invited to "try out and see whether they work".
* Deceptive recruitment;
Doesn't apply - prospects are invited to presentations where they find out about what goes on and what results people get, and can ask any questions they like, and then choose whether to register into a course or not. Not only that but they can choose to leave a few hours into any course and get their money back (actually two opportunities to do that in the case of the Landmark Forum).
* Totalitarianism and alienation of members from their families and/or friends;
Doesn't apply - on the contrary, many customers re-build relationships with friends and family members from whom they had become estranged.
* The use of indoctrination, by sophisticated mind-control techniques, based on the concept that once you can make a person behave the way you want, then you can make him/her believe what you want;
Doesn't apply - although many critics claim this, without much data to back it up!.
* Slave labour - that is, the use of members on fundraising or missionary activities for little or no pay to line the leader's pockets;
Doesn't apply - certainly people do assist at Landmark event (but only those who want to - about 1% of customers in any given year), but no-one's pockets are being lined (except for the customers who get the courses at much cheaper prices than they would otherwise be).
* Misuse of funds and the accumulation of wealth for personal or political purposes at the expense of members;
Doesn't apply - the modest operating profits are re-invested into the business and not distributed to the shareholders.
* Exclusivity - "we are right and everyone else is wrong".
Doesn't apply - no-one is asked to believe anything.
DaveApter 17:38, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
The same as above, but more so – this is a completely absurd accusation, which does not merit even inclusion in a serious encyclopedia article. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by DaveApter ( talk • contribs).(It was not unsigned - see above DaveApter 14:39, 21 March 2007 (UTC))
It is completely ridiculous to devote aboout a page to this issue. We have no idea what the criteria are the the compiler of the report used. It is a report about the tolerance of the Austrian government towards minority groups, not about the characteristics of the groups themselves, and LE has never had an operation in Austria anyway. The whole section should come out. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by DaveApter ( talk • contribs).(It was not unsigned - see above DaveApter 14:39, 21 March 2007 (UTC))
===== Austria ===== In Austria in 1996, the Federal Ministry of the Environment, Youth and the Family published a list of 200 groups it labelled cults (in German: ''Sekten'')<ref> "Sekten : Wissen schützt. Eine Information des Bundesministeriums für Umwelt, Jugend und Familie, Stubenbastei 5, 1010 Wien, 1996 (Sects : Knowledge protects. Information from the Federal Ministry of the Environment, Youth and the Family, Stubenbastei 5, 1010 Wien, 1996) </ref> According to the [http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2005/51539.htm International Religious Freedom Report 2005], the government of Austria had labeled Landmark Education as a "sect": <blockquote> The vast majority of groups termed "sects" by the Government are small organizations with fewer than 100 members. Among the larger groups is the Church of Scientology, with between 5,000 and 6,000 members, and the Unification Church, with approximately 700 adherents throughout the country. Other groups found in the country include Divine Light Mission, Eckankar, Hare Krishna, the Holosophic community, the Osho movement, Sahaja Yoga, Sai Baba, Sri Chinmoy, Transcendental Meditation, Landmark Education, the Center for Experimental Society Formation, Fiat Lux, Universal Life, and The Family.<ref> [http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2005/51539.htm International Religious Freedom Report 2005], [[Bureau of Democracy, Human Rights, and Labor]]. </ref> </blockquote> The [[Bureau of Democracy, Human Rights, and Labor]]'s [http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2006/71367.htm International Religious Freedom Report 2006] did not list Landmark Education in the equivalent context and there is no evidence that Landmark ever operated in Austria.
This is merely a blatant attempt to smear LE using guilt by association. There is no connection between LE and Scientlology and there never has been. No authoritative source have ever produced a convincing argument that there is. Most of the utterances on the subject are from armchair commentators who have no knowledge of Landmark. The whole section is inappropriate and should be removed. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by DaveApter ( talk • contribs).(It was not unsigned - see above DaveApter 14:39, 21 March 2007 (UTC))
The only reason to even have something about Scientology in the article is to insinuate something sinister. If we are simply drawing a comparison bewteen two courses, then why has no one put Tony Robbins, Dale Carnegie, or Dr. Phil in this article? You can find noted and reputable sources that will make those comparisons to Landmark as well. Accusations are a dime a dozen in this day of modern spin. Insinuation of danger with an intention to scare people into beleiving something has been used since the begining of civilization. Senator Joseph McCarthy, when it came to accusing half of Hollywood of being comunists and calling them up infront of the HUAC really looked convincing at the time. For that matter so did Colin Powell when he went infront of the UN Security Council making the case for WMD's. I think the only basis for having a scientology section in this article is an attempt to fabricate a reality that is simply not there. By the way, today is the 4th anniversay of the begining of the War in Iraq. Lets be cautious about this. Triplejumper 20:03, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
This section doesn't make a coherent statement and its purpose appears to be to associate LE and Scientology without asserting any concrete association. It reads like a collection of random sentences which contain the words Landmark Education and Scientology. The quotes don't draw any direct connections between the two organizations which would entail actions by LE (the subject of the article), but cite the most indirect actions of others who "compare", "suggest", and "reference". Further, the Bavarian Study quote is uninterpretable to this native speaker of English. I concur that the section should be removed. Tealwarrior 23:09, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
== Market penetration over time == This section looks like a re-hash of an old argument in the talk pages: See: "Majority opinions and minority opinions" from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Landmark_Education/Archive_2 and the later deletion of a similar section in: "Operational statistics section" : This section restores data previously deleted on questionable grounds. -- [[User:Pedant17|Pedant17]] 05:46, 1 April 2007 (UTC) The argument previously was that participation in LE programs is stagnent or waning, but the contributor hasn't come out and said that here, and instead provides evidence that this might be the case leaving such a conclusion to a reader. : Statistics can have multiple functions. These statistics, published to the web by Landmark Education, provide extracts from the set of the less spun contents of the Landmark education corporate web. -- [[User:Pedant17|Pedant17]] 05:46, 1 April 2007 (UTC) I thought the previous counter argument was pretty clear that the figures were not regularly updated on the LE website. : It might seem reasonable to assume that Landmark Education did not update its statistics on its website regularly, though I have seen no evidence of this, and one need not expect reasonable behavior from Landmark Education. On the other hand, someone with access to the Landmark Education website did and has updated that website with statistics from time to time. -- [[User:Pedant17|Pedant17]] 05:46, 1 April 2007 (UTC) ::As you inserted this section, and are keen to keep it, could you let us know what is the point you are trying to make here, please? It seems to me to simply take up quite a lot of space with some not very illuminating statistics. [[User:DaveApter|DaveApter]] 10:40, 2 April 2007 (UTC) ::: Statistics can prove useful, provided one knows their origin and degree authenticity. Statistics on the sales of tabulating machines in the 1920s would enhance any article seling with the story of IBM. Statistics on the number of converts or communicants would enhance any article on the story of Shinto in the 1930s. Landmark Education has generously "shared" with the world figures on its recruitment and scope. Unfortunately, some of those figures no longer appear on Landmark Education's web-page and have become inaccessible on the [[Internet Archive]]. Wikipedia can help! -- [[User:Pedant17|Pedant17]] 05:31, 10 April 2007 (UTC) Citing them as such seems misleading. : Misleading as to what? The statistics apparently come from Landmark Education, and appear in the article with detailed references as to their provenance and dating. An interpretation of them might mislead, but the actual statistics provide a verifiable record of what Landmark Education published and when. -- [[User:Pedant17|Pedant17]] 05:46, 1 April 2007 (UTC) :: I think this section should be removed again, and added if some consensus is reached on the talk page. [[User:Tealwarrior|Tealwarrior]] 00:14, 27 March 2007 (UTC) : If someone can produce a better-attested set of statistics, we could merge them into the article. In the meantime I suggest retaining and building on what we have available on the important topic of Landmark Education's ongoing impact on humanity over time as measured by numbers of "graduations" and by numbers of offices. -- [[User:Pedant17|Pedant17]] 05:46, 1 April 2007 (UTC) :: The lack of an update between 2002 and 2004 is evidence of not updating the site. I can think of other theories, but this is the simplest and most likely. :::The text demonstrates that someone did update the Landmark Education site between 2002 and 2004: the phrase "current 2001 numbers" became successively "current 2002 numbers" and "current 2003 numbers", as the quotes reveal. -- [[User:Pedant17|Pedant17]] 05:31, 10 April 2007 (UTC) :: I see your point that it's not misleading to say: "This is what was published and when", but then the header should be something to suggest that, rather than that these are believable indicators of market penetration. The links cited are no longer accessible either, so the verifiable part is no longer the case. Without analysis these numbers don't contribute much of anything. Perhaps citing the most recent numbers posted (1,000,000 as of 2005) would be the most generally interesting. Talk of "ongoing impact on humanity over time" seems like it's best left for the discussion page and not in the article. [[User:Tealwarrior|Tealwarrior]] 18:58, 6 April 2007 (UTC) ::: Analysis might constitute [[WP:OR | original research]]. The most recent numbers convey less if divorced from their historical equivalents. Thank you for endorsing my placing of the phrase "ongoing impact on humanity over time" on the Talk-page rather than in the article proper. -- [[User:Pedant17|Pedant17]] 05:31, 10 April 2007 (UTC) ::: The list of statistics does seem to be unnecessary. I concur that the most recent numbers would be sufficient and the most interesting. [[User:Timb66|Timb66]] 00:53, 7 April 2007 (UTC) :::: Some people maintain an interest in the past. Such people mnay sometimes read Wikipedia. Deleted text reads: <nowiki> === Market penetration over time === A quote from Charlotte Faltermeyer's 1998 article in ''Time'' magazine, as reproduced (without an attributed date) on the [http://www.wernererhard.com/wernererhardtimemagazine.htm wernererhard.com website]<ref> Retrieved [[2007-03-04]] </ref> gives a figure of 300,000 Landmark Forum-attendees since 1991. The [http://www.archive.org Internet Archive site] previously held some historical snapshots from Landmark Education's website: [http://web.archive.org/web/20000510053250/www.landmarkforum.com/articles/default.htm Landmark Education's web-site as of 10 May 2000] linked to a [http://web.archive.org/web/20000510033016/www.time.com/time/magazine/1998/dom/980316/society.the_best_of_est.3.html ''Time'' magazine page] of March 16, 1998, (Volume 151, number 10) where an article by Charlotte Faltermeyer estimated 300,000 graduates since 1991, and referred to Landmark Education's 42 offices in 11 countries. Before the owner of the http://www.landmarkeducation.com site blocked access to the information, the [[Internet Archive]]'s archive of [http://web.archive.org/web/20021005063934/www.landmarkeducation.com/display_content.jsp?top=21&mid=80&bottom=124&siteObjectID=593 Landmark Education's web-site as of 28 November 2002], in excerpting Charlotte Faltermeyer's ''Time'' magazine article of March 1998, claimed approximately 600,000 "seekers" as having taken the Landmark Forum since 1991, and referred to Landmark Education's 60 offices in 21 countries ("[u]pdated to reflect current 2001 numbers"). The Internet Archive record of this infomation became unavailable on the Web at some time between [[4 March]] 2007 (when the information again became part of the Wikipedia article on [[Landmark Education]]) and [[7 April]] 2007). Before the owner of the http://www.landmarkeducation.com site blocked access to the information, the [[Internet Archive]]'s archive of [http://web.archive.org/web/20030625104924/www.landmarkeducation.com/display_content.jsp?top=21&mid=80&bottom=124&siteObjectID=593 Landmark Education's web-site as of 29 July 2003], in excerpting Charlotte Faltermeyer's ''Time'' magazine article of March 1998, claimed approximately 600,000 "seekers" as having taken the Landmark Forum since 1991, and referred to Landmark Education's 60 offices in 24 countries ("[u]pdated to reflect current 2002 numbers"). The Internet Archive record of this infomation became unavailable on the Web at some time between [[4 March]] 2007 (when the information again became part of the Wikipedia article on [[Landmark Education]]) and [[7 April]] 2007). Before the owner of the http://www.landmarkeducation.com site blocked access to the information, the [[Internet Archive]]'s archive of [http://web.archive.org/web/20031212204155/www.landmarkeducation.com/display_content.jsp?top=21&mid=80&bottom=124&siteObjectID=593 Landmark Education's web-site as of 10 June 2004], in excerpting Charlotte Faltermeyer's ''Time'' magazine article of March 1998, claimed approximately 600,000 "seekers" as having taken the Landmark Forum since 1991, and referred to Landmark Education's 58 offices in 26 countries ("[u]pdated to reflect current 2003 numbers"). The Internet Archive record of this infomation became unavailable on the Web at some time between [[4 March]] 2007 (when the information again became part of the Wikipedia article on [[Landmark Education]]) and [[7 April]] 2007). Before the owner of the http://www.landmarkeducation.com site blocked access tothe information, the [[Internet Archive]]'s archive of [http://web.archive.org/web/20040220191214/www.landmarkeducation.com/display_content.jsp?top=21&mid=80&bottom=124&siteObjectID=593 Landmark Education's web-site as of 1 April 2005], in excerpting Charlotte Faltermeyer's ''Time'' magazine article of March 1998, claimed approximately 725,000 Landmark Forum attendees since 1991, and 58 offices in 26 countries. The Internet Archive record of this infomation became unavailable on the Web at some time between [[4 March]] 2007 (when the information again became part of the Wikipedia article on [[Landmark Education]]) and [[7 April]] 2007). Landmark Education's web-site as of [[7 February]] 2006, in excerpting Charlotte Faltermeyer's ''Time'' magazine article of March 1998, claimed approximately 758,000 "seekers" as having taken the Landmark Forum since 1991, and referred to Landmark Education's 58 offices in 26 countries ("[u]pdated to reflect current 2004 numbers"). [http://www.landmarkeducation.com/display_content.jsp?top=21&mid=80&bottom=124&siteObjectID=593 Landmark Education's web-site as of [[7 April]] 2007], in excerpting Charlotte Faltermeyer's ''Time'' magazine article of March 1998, claimed "approximately 1,000,000" "seekers" as having taken the Landmark Forum since 1991, and referred to Landmark Education's 51 offices in 25 countries ("[u]pdated to reflect current 2005 numbers").
Landmark Education states variously that "More than 880,000"<ref> http://www.landmarkeducation.com/menu.jsp?top=26&mid=655 "Articles about Landmark Education" retrieved [2007-04-09]] </ref> "approximately 1,000,000"<ref> http://www.landmarkeducation.com/display_content.jsp?top=21&mid=80&bottom=124&siteObjectID=593,"Time Magazine excerpt" retrieved [2007-04-09]] </ref> or "almost [1,000,000]" people have taken part in its introductory program, "The Landmark Forum" since 1991.<ref> [http://www.landmarkeducation.com/display_content.jsp?top=26&mid=659 Landmark Education For the Media], Landmark Education website, retrieval: [[2007-04-09]] </ref>
As I've said above, there are controversies but the prominence given to them in the article is out of all proportion to the number of people holding these views or the quality of the evidence to surpport them.
People who have an agenda of using this article to propagate damaging fallacious stories about Landmark frequently defend their edits by referring to the “reliable sources” on which their edits are based.
But on examining the references, we see that many of them are highly questionable:
Samways has not observed the conduct of any Landmark courses,
and her entirely speculative comments are based on impressions gained from the comments of self-selected individuals who contacted her with complaints.
The "Psychogroups and Cults in Denmark", mentions Landmark almost as an aside and there is no suggestion that the comment is based on anything other than hearsay.
The paragraph about Sweden establishes no more than that public interest declined after the airing of a couple of sensationalistic TV programs, but we have no idea of the fairness or otherwise of the treatment in these programs.
The term cult has several distinct but related meanings, not all of which are pejorative (and this problem is compounded when a foreign language report is cited, without a sense of the precise nuances of the word in that tongue). Detractors often try to dig up references where the term has been applied in what may well have been a non-pejorative sense, in order to smear by association. This applies specifically to the Belgian, German and Austrian citations. There is no indication of who compiled these reports, what criteria they used, or what level of examination was applied.
There are two instances quoted of attempts to sue Landmark for allegedly prompting a mental breakdown. Apart from the possibility of these cases being opportunistically motivated, and the fact that the courts did not uphold the contention that Landmark could be established as a cause, two cases out of almost a million is clearly statistically insignificant (and in any event is vanishingly smaller than the number of instances that would be expected from a random sample of this size drawn from the population at large). And incidentally, neither of these cases actually reference the section heading of “brainwashing”.
-- Pedant17 03:38, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
The Lell reference is simply a subjective unsubstantiated opinion of one customer made in a book he wrote.
See above, but this reference is particularly spurious, as the focus of that report is nothing to do with evaluating the groups mentioned, but is making a case for the tolerant nature of the Austrian state in accommodating divergent beliefs.
There is no connection between Scientology and Landmark, and attempts to pretend that there is is merely deliberate scaremongering.
Scientology is religion and has a dogma that we are Thetans from outer space who will be liberated when we re-connect with our Thetan nature.
Here for reference the latest undeleted version of the text as discussed below: -- Pedant17 03:38, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
Scientology
In 1992 the Church of Scientology (which has the classification of a religious organization in certain jurisdictions, such as that of the United States of America, but not in others) included Werner Erhard, EST (Erhard Seminars Training) and "The Forum" on a list of "Suppressive Persons and Groups". [1] [2]
Scientology has a special procedure that new Scientologists must go through if they have previously participated in either Erhard Seminars Training or in the Landmark Forum. Scientologists refer to the procedure as the "Est Repair Rundown". [3]
The German Stern (magazine) has compared Landmark Education to the Church of Scientology. [4] The Frankfurter Neue Presse, stated that: "They are suspected of having connections with the Scientology Church." [5]
In 2003 a Bavarian Study on Scientology compared the practices of Landmark Education and of Scientology. The objective of the description and assessment of the Scientology and Landmark organizations was the investigation of the psychic, physical and social effects of the psycho- and social-techniques applied by those organizations respectively upon members and participants. The third objective also included the presentation of legal problems, conflicts or violations by the two organizations, along with pointers as to possible paths of resolution. [6]
In 2004, Mona Vasquez appeared in the documentary " Voyage to the Land of the New Gurus" addressing what she saw as extensive and precise similarities between Scientology terminology and the jargon utilized by Landmark Education. [7] A member of Scientology for seven years, Vasquez wrote the book Et Satan créa la secte [Satan Created the Cult: Memoirs of an escapee].
In 2006, Susan J. Palmer discussed Landmark Education at a CESNUR conference. She referenced a statement by journalist Martin Mireille who had stated that Landmark Education is "a branch of Scientology". However, in Palmer's remarks, she rejects this assertion. [8].
The first two references, from the Scientology organisation itself, merely demonstrate that Scientology is antagonistic to Landmark, and do nothing to demonstrate any similarities.
The third one is merely an opinion expressed in a popular magazine article.
The fourth is a study which compared the two (but omitting to mention the conclusion – which was that they were unrelated and that there were considerable differences).
The fifth is a personal opinion expressed by someone who positions herself as a Scientology expert, but who appears to have no particular knowledge of Landmark Eduation.
And the sixth is a reference to someone who was actually stating that there was no connection!
All five references are merely quotes of opinions expressed by people of no particular expertise, in magazine and newspaper articles.
The section as it stands gives excessive weight to a handful of clergy who have voiced criticisms based on hearsay, rumour or speculation, relative to the large number who have gone on record giving positive accounts, based on personal observation. DaveApter 10:40, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
This strikes me as adding very little value to the article for the space it takes, and is actually misleading. Presumably the intention of it is to imply that this is a slippery operation which is always changing its colours? But the first two lines are entirely distinct companies with different ownership and product lines (but related - yes I know, and the point has already been made - several times). The next one is the name incorporated, and changed a week later - which is quite standard procedure. The next one was traded for four months before they had a re-think about it. The next one is not really a name-change at all, just a re-structure from an Inc to a LLC. So what? DaveApter 10:40, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
I agree, and I suggest the table be removed. Timb66 01:52, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
Agreed. Making change. Alex Jackl 23:22, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
The table provided a valuable summary of the various forms in which the Landmark Education tradition operated. The dating militated against misleading. Speculation about the "intention" does not provide good grounds for suppression. -- Pedant17 03:38, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
I request editors take a look at what I did on the page- I did a cleanup of material and references that were non-notable or senteces that were full of weasel-words. FOr instance the section on Religion that inmplied some contraversy in the first semtemce and then followed by a bunch of references that merely imply some people were watching the organixzation and half the references being positive ones. And when list the positive references someone put in that these were "opinion as opposed to thoughtful theological analysis" implying the preceding references were more scholarly in some way. It doesn't go far enough as we can see in the above "Examination of Sources" section but I didn't want to be too bold too quickly. Better to slowly shift the article to NPOV and get agremeement than wholsale changes. Please let me know if anyone has any thought on those changes. Alex Jackl 02:08, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
Any charter can claim or state anything. That doesn't necessarily make something valid outside that scope. To state that a charter "claims" or "states' or "professes" provides a more accurate and encyclopedic account of such matters. -- Pedant17 05:46, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
The links cited are no longer accessible either, so the verifiable part is no longer the case. Without analysis these numbers don't contribute much of anything. Perhaps citing the most recent numbers posted (1,000,000 as of 2005) would be the most generally interesting. Talk of "ongoing impact on humanity over time" seems like it's best left for the discussion page and not in the article. Tealwarrior 18:58, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
Hello, pedant17, and thank you for your contributions to this discussion.
You have made a large number of comments on this talk page,
but are they serious attempts to engage with the debate and reach consensus on the structure and content of an article which meets wikipedia policies and is useful to the general reader, or are they aimed at justifying an article which propagates your own personal viewpoint on the subject?
You assert several times that it is a Minority viewpoint that “that Landmark Education represents a worthy and worthwhile endeavor”. On what possible evidence or information do you base this extraordinary opinion?
This is important because it relates to the wikipedia policies on NPOV and Undue weight.
This is how it seems to me:
In round figures, about 1,000,000 have done the Landmark Forum
Surveys from several reputable organisations consistently report 93% - 95% “highly satisfied” or some such. It’s reasonable to assume that most of the remaining 5-7% are broadly satisfied to some degree, leaving say 1% who are actively hostile.
This is borne out by the large number of Landmark customers who recommend the program to their friends, and the large proportion who take further courses. They wouldn’t do either if they were not impressed.
In other words we seem to have about 990,000 in favor and 10,000 against, from those who actually have first-hand experience. (and of course we should not get hung up on my 1% estimate – perhaps it’s 2% or even 3%?). Then we have people who haven’t done it, but have formed an opinion on the basis of hearsay, rumour or speculation. How many of them are there who are strongly antagonistic? It stretches credulity to imagine that there are more than say another 10,000. (and of course there are also those who haven’t done any courses but have positive opinions).
Then we have a few dozen journalists who have written negative articles (and another few dozen who have written positive articles).
And finally we have half a dozen self-appointed “cult experts” who have a vested interest in stirring up paranoia, and who show remarkably little knowledge of what Landmark actuallly does and how it does it.
What are your estimates for the size of the various populations of differing opinions, and what is the data and reasoning on which you base them? DaveApter 16:13, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Landmark_Education/Archive_2#Majority_opinions_and_minority_opinions And I don't accept your various populations as useful in assessing the overall picture. The issues of customer-satisfaction and culthood do not cover the full scope of Landmark Education. I would suggest we assess the pop-culture phenomenon in pop-culture terms as well. -- Pedant17 06:36, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
I have restored the well-researched criticism sections that must have taken a lot of work to assemble but were removed by people acting on behalf of Landmark. I have read this page but cannot see any concensus (except among the Landmark people) for their removal. Arguments by analogy are not always appropriate, but the above statements by Dave Apter really beg for it. By analogy, Dave is saying that, for example
i. only members of the LAPD who were personally involved in beating Rodney King can offer a valid opinion on any matter to do with Rodney King;
ii. only guards of former concentration camps (whether in the Boer War, WWII, 50's Malaysia, or elsewhere entirely) are capable of knowledgeable comment about said concentration camps;
iii. only members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints can have a valid opinion on the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints;
iv. only personnel with US Marine training can have a valid viewpoint on the US Marines, etc. etc.
Obviously Landmark is a much smaller phenomenon than e.g. the Church of Scientology and fewer outsiders would have heard of it. There is a good chance that more people have done the courses than have heard of Landmark but have a negative opinion. In fact, the high-pressure tactics used by Landmark believers to attempt to get their friends to cough up for the courses (e.g. the fact that a refuser will end up on the periphery of or completely ostracised by a group dominated by believers) makes this all the more likely, since in a group taken or formed by the Landmark meme only those who are willing to make waves and risk not going with the flow will feel able to avoid the courses.
The Church of Scientology would almost certainly be able to make the same argument: our members outnumber our critics. Most people just don't have any interest, and why should they? That is, the arguments regarding size [sic] of various populations are specious and not worthy of any serious response. ER Talk 08:54, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
Thanks Esther for your contributions to this discussion. However you seem to have misunderstood the points I was making.
Firstly, the examples you give bear no resemblance to my position: to take just the first one, it is clearly the case that a number of groups could have "valid opinion" on the beating of Rodney King - a) Rodney King himself, b)eye-witnesses at the scene, c) those who had seen the events on videotape, d)those who had received accounts directly from any of the foregoing. Any of the above might qualify as a Reliable Source for the purposes of a Wikipedia article. Neither am I questioning the "validity" of the opinions held by individuals whose sources of information were less direct than these, but it is unlikely that such opinions would count as sources of factual data for an encyclopedia article.
Secondly, your comment that "the arguments regarding size [sic] of various populations are specious" shows a complete lack of understanding of Wikepedia's Neutral Point of View policy as it relates to "facts about opinions", which states:
The policy requires that, where there are or have been conflicting views, these should be presented fairly. None of the views should be given undue weight or asserted as being the truth, and all significant published points of view are to be presented, not just the most popular one...
Background is provided on who believes what and why, and which view is more popular. Detailed articles might also contain the mutual evaluations of each viewpoint, but studiously refrain from stating which is better. One can think of unbiased writing as the fair, analytical description of all relevant sides of a debate. When bias towards one particular point of view can be detected, the article needs to be fixed...
Where we might want to state an opinion, we convert that opinion into a fact by attributing the opinion to someone... The reference requires an identifiable and objectively quantifiable population or, better still, a name (with the clear implication that the named individual should be a recognized authority)...
NPOV says that the article should fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by a verifiable source, and should do so in proportion to the prominence of each. Now an important qualification: Articles that compare views should not give minority views as much or as detailed a description as more popular views, and may not include tiny-minority views at all.
How does all this relate to the article? Clearly some individuals are of the opinion that Landmark is a "cult" (which begs the questions of what precisely they mean by that), and some are not; some are of the opinion that Landmark is a cynical money-making operation, and some are not; some are of the opinion that it produces impressive objectively measurable results for the majority of its customers, and some are not; some are of the opinion that significant numbers of its customers are harmed in some way, and some strongly doubt that; and some think that those who assist at Landmark events have been duped into lining someone else's pockets, while others do not.
All of the above are legitimate subjects for discussion in the controversies section, but within the bounds of the policy.
How can we decide what weight to give the various views without some estimate of the various population sizes? And note the qualification that in the case of an opinion attributed to a name it "should be a recognized authority". Critical scrutiny of the sources for much of the negative material which has been introduced into the article reveals that many of them fall far short of these standards.
And finally, for the avoidance of doubt, I am not editing "on behalf of Landmark" - I am editing with a clear commitment to a quality article which meets Wikipedia guidelines and policies rather than one which acts as a soapbox for certain extreme POVs. DaveApter 10:52, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
Dear EstherRice. I can only speak for myself when I assure you that I am not "acting on behalf of Landmark." I am acting to ensure NPOV in this article. You write: "I have read this page but cannot see any concensus (except among the Landmark people) for their removal." I imagine the majority of editors for this page, if not all, have either done Landmark courses or have some specific knowledge through talking to people who have. As you say, who else would be interested enough to bother? And that is fine: I expect that substantial edits to most Wiki pages are only made by those who have some direct knowledge or interest.
Your comments indicate that you fall in the second group that I mentioned and you express a view that is not neutral. That is fine. I am also not neutral. I did the Landmark Forum 15 years ago and still regard at as one of the most important things I have done. I also do not consider myself to have been brainwashed. On occasion I have told people about Landmark if I think they might be interested, and several have done courses. Most have found it very rewarding and none have found it to be a negative experience.
But my point is not to debate the merits of Landmark, as enjoyable as that might be. You obviously have negative experiences and I have positive ones. And I know that people who have done the Forum, particularly recently, can be very pushy. But Wikipedia is not the place to have these discussions. I have not looked, but I expect there are websites where people have vigorous discussions about Landmark.
The purpose of Dave's comments, I think, was to point out that the hostile view is a minority among those who have some direct knowledge.
To answer your analogies, of course people who have not done Landmark courses are entitled to have an opinion, but they must have some knowledge of it.
I am not entitled to voice an opinion about Rodney King if I have never heard of him (actually, his story did make the news here in Australia). So let us consider those who know something about Landmark, either through having done courses or knowing those who have. You write: "There is a good chance that more people have done the courses than have heard of Landmark but have a negative opinion." I agree. But what about those who have heard of Landmark and have a positive opinion?! I would claim they are far more numerous than those with negative opinions. That is certainly the case among my friends and family, many of whom have not done any Landmark courses but who happily acknowledge the benefits to me.
I see that while I have been writing this, you have reversed my reversion. I guess I should have written this before making the reversion, sorry. So now please read my comments and respond. I will repeat my reversion because I think you should have waited for some discussion before making your changes. I don't think that it is reasonable for you to make substantial changes without discussing them here and attempting to reach consensus.
Finally, your remark that you "cannot see any concensus (except among the Landmark people)" deserves further comment. Surely those who have done Landmark courses are well placed to comment on them.
Is it is really reasonable to exclude us when deciding on what is and is not concensus? Only if you think that participating in Landmark courses has made us unable to be objective.
That is of course possible, and I might agree there could be grounds for concern if all the "Landmark people" editing this page had done the Forum very recently and were fresh from the process. I cannot speak for the others, but I did the Forum 15 years ago.
I have done a few other courses since then, but the last was three years ago. Surely that is enough time for concerns about brainwashing to subside?
Isn't it possible that for some people (and I would say most), the Landmark experience is positive, whether as a participant or not?
That is precisely the question that Dave was asking. Thanks for reading this far, Timb66 10:19, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
I was going to comment on all of Pedant17 and EstherRice's comments but I have found a theme and it is that same theme that caused all the isuses when Smee was editing here.
If you look at the comments above there is a background of looking at Wikipedia as some kind of debate page- some place where if there are some citations about something or if a journalist said something then the default is that it should be in the article. That is not, IMO, the idea of an encyclopedia - citations and content must be valid and appropriate to encyclopedic content. Just because some journalist linked Scientology and Landmark (even though the connection is clearly nebulous and scholars have refuted the journalistic connection) does not mean we should include it because there is a citation. One of the stock phrases that Smee would whip out is the "these are valid, well-formed citations" as if that were a good enough reason to include something. Any suggestions on how to create aguideline to check validity. Any suggestions? Alex Jackl 13:22, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
... and should be tagged as such. Thousands of KB of highly-sourced material, meticulously sourced to reputable secondary sourced citations, has been removed unjustly. Smee 07:02, 18 April 2007 (UTC).
Including material simply because it is well sourced is not necessarily consistent with NPOV. Please address the specific points raised above. Timb66 08:25, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
I agree that the "unbalanced" tag should probably stay for the momen and I have reinstated it. Hopefully it will attract new editors who can bring a fresh view. But the "advertising" tag remains to be justified and I have removed it. Once again: can one of these 3 editors please address the specific points raised above? And please note that being well sourced is not a sufficient reason for inclusion if the material represnets a minority view. Timb66 12:08, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
Just to clarify, my reason for keeping the unbalanced tag is because I think the article gives too much weight to minority negative views. Timb66 22:12, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
Smee, looking at the history of this article, it is clear that you have spent an enormous amount of time and effort collating these negative comments. I can understand that you are reluctant to accept deletion of that material but NPOV guidelines are clear: undue weight should not be given to a minority option. Timb66 09:44, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
As it stands, the article is pretty messy. The discussion is going in circles. There was a good suggestion at the top of this page by DaveApter. I suggest we adopt it. Timb66 09:44, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
Smee, it would be great if you would actually engage constructively with the debate here instead of just parroting the same assertions over and over again and simply ignoring points made by other contributors which do not coincide with your viewpoint.
You have not seriously addressed the questions that have been raised regarding the quality, verifiablity and relevance of many of the sources you have cited. Simply saying over and over again that they are "meticulously sourced to reputable secondary sourced citations" does not make that the case. In many instances they fall far short of the standards one would expect to justify an encyclopedia entry. When we actually look at the sources you have drawn from, we find that many of them are one or more of the following:
Many editors (with no axe to grind either way) have pointed out that this article is seriously deficient in the amount of meaningful information about what Landmark actually does, and this certainly remains the case. DaveApter 16:35, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
Motivated people esp those motivated by financial gain can make an extended effort to write and maintain pages favorable to them Through a mixture of hardheadiness, will and perhaps a number of persons they can employ round the clock.
I'm not familar with this subject at all but just a cursory reading of this page I can see how skewed it is in favor of LE. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.22.78.184 ( talk • contribs)
Oh yes, how convenient. This unsigned comment is either from a sockpuppet, or we are being asked to take seriously the comments of someone who admits being completely unfamiliar with the subject and who has only given the page a cursory reading.
And then asserts with no evidence that editors of this page are employed by Landmark?
Certainly I am not and have never been, nor do I know anyone who is or has. Instead, I wonder why some people spend such an enormous amount of time arguing their case against Landmark.
They must have had a very bad experience,
which I am quite willing to recognise, but I wish they would stop trying to push their minority views.
If my friend drowned in a pool, does that give me the right to skew the article on swimming by expanding the section on risks to give every negative opinion I can find on the Web?
Timb66 12:13, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
Smee, can you please clarify what you mean by "contractual relationships"? The unsigned post alleged that some editors are employed and receive financial gain. Are you also alleging this? If not, please be precise. It is clearly important to clarify any conflicts of interest. thanks Timb66 03:07, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
See archived comments by previously un-involved editor, User:Nposs, here: Talk:Landmark Education/Archive 6. Smee 05:23, 24 April 2007 (UTC).
There is a constant theme to all this that involves how well-sourced the non-noptable material is and how much the "public deserves to see all sides and then the Wikipedia readers can figure it out".
Let's stop the edit warring please... Alex Jackl 16:48, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
Esther Rice completely ignored the debate happening on this page and wiped out most of the edits and cleaning of the page that has happened since the page was protected.
It is for that kind of stuff that the page was protected in the past! Let's work together and not start an edit war. Alex Jackl 17:08, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
I think there was majority consensus for that removal, although it was obviously not unaminous. To repeat the argument: material should not be included, no matter how reputably sourced, if it gives undue weight to a minority point of view. Timb66 03:11, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
Wow guys, wow. So interesting. Score one for the advertising / marketing / public relations department... Smee 14:05, 30 April 2007 (UTC).
Look again- it just isn't labeled in big letters. Score one for balance. Alex Jackl 15:38, 30 April 2007 (UTC)