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Unless you want your grandchildren to still be haggling over this, this needs a fresh start! This article has been closer to being NPOV in the past than it is now.
To begin with, all participating editors need to have an overriding commitment to reaching a consensus on a well-written, well-organized, clear and concise encyclopedic article (according to Wikipedia's standards, not your own) where all points of view can agree that they are fairly represented. Some research may be needed to apprise yourself of the background needed to do that.
Since there was a message that the previous talk page was too long, I have moved it to Archive 2.
This entire article needs to be scrapped and begun anew. I suggest first developing an outline of sections and subsections to be covered, then fleshing out the outline. Some sections which have been previously deleted should be considered for re-inclusion. Kat'n'Yarn 17:13, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
To get the ball going, I've reworked the introduction, followed by a reworked "Origin and Evolution" section. There are so many problems with this article it's hard to know where to begin. But, for one thing, it's too long and there's a lot of promotional material and material the average encyclopedia reader isn't interested in that can just be cut. Kat'n'Yarn 18:41, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
And then I consolidated all the corporate sections into one. I've left the list of corporate officers and associations, etc. for now. However, considering that the article needs to be reduced to 2/3 it's present length (52K to 34K), we should consider cutting them. Isn't all that on Landmark's website? Kat'n'Yarn 20:47, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
This is where what's already been written can't be salvaged. Wikipedia's guidelines on Reliable sources states:
"Caution should be used when using company or organization websites as sources. Although the company or organization is a good source of information on itself, it has an obvious bias. The American Association of Widget Manufacturers is interested in promoting widgets, so be careful not to rely on it exclusively if other reliable sources are available, in order to maintain a neutral point of view. Exercise particular care when using such a website as a source if the company or organization is a controversial one."
I think a few allowances can be made, but the present article relies wholesale on Landmark Education's website. "Wikipedia articles should use reliable published sources." See also Neutral point of view. Kat'n'Yarn 03:18, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
I originally started by attempting to clean up the Management article, however, the more I look through this entire article the more I notice bizarre additions of people all over. As I mentioned in a previous discussion, I researched other major company's articles for comparisons sake and found the following: I researched other major companies to see what their articles said about their management persons/structure and found very little (please see: Tony Robbins, The Learning Company, Target Corporation, and Wal-Mart). At most, I discovered a list of Wal-Mart board members and a link to a very brief biography of the company's CEO. Even Tony Robbins article gave only a minimal description of Mr. Robbins personal life. While the heads of a company are pertinent and important to an informational article about a company—the slew of disjointed employees is not, and calls into question the NPOV of that article. Thus, I've removed a number of unnecessary persons from this article due to the fact that they have little to nothing to do with Landmark Education at present and the fact that they may have been involved at some previous point is neither pertinent nor standard information for other similar articles Blondie0309 18:18, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
(also posted on Talk:Landmark Education Vocabulary)
The "Landmark Education Vocabulary" article, and related "Vocabulary" section of this article, do not follow a number of Wikipedia guidlines:
The term 'Jargon' is also inaccruate. While Jargon is a form of terminology, Wiki says "Jargon can be distinguished from terminology in that it is informal and essentially part of the oral culture of a profession, with only limited expression in the profession's publications." The way Landmark Education makes distinctions with their language is core to their program. Their use of words in a particular manner hasn't developed informally as a lingo, it's a purposeful terminology, and therefore not precisely 'jargon'. The broader term of 'Terminology' of which jargon is a type, would be more accurate.
Pato 9:13, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
I wanted to allow a few days for comments, so I wouldn't send everyone into shock. Unless there are objections, I'd like to do some bold cutting, reorganizing, combining, summarizing to shorten the length of the article, not particularly change its content. The article is presently 52K, the recommended maximum length is 32K (see Wikipedia:article size. We need to get the job done! Kat'n'Yarn 00:37, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
I’ve reduced the article to 41 K, mainly by cutting the detailed course descriptions and promotional material. See What Wikipedia is not: “Wikipedia is not a soapbox or a vehicle for propaganda and advertising.” It still needs to lose another 9K of fat. The entire last portion of the article needs to be researched and rewritten, so hopefully the size can also be reduced there. Some notes - -
If I inadvertently cut anything which was reliably sourced and of high priority, please put it back and discuss it.
“Wikipedia is not a repository of links … excessive lists can dwarf articles and detract from the purpose of Wikipedia.” Can we agree to limit both the lists of favorable and unfavorable opinion links to five? I’ve already cut the unfavorable list, but I’d ask the “favorable” editors to edit that list. Preference should be given to websites which link to/archive multiple published articles in their entirety, not those which contain excerpts, a single article, or opinion.
I’ve cut the section on Large Group Awareness Trainings and added it as a related topic link at the bottom. As background information, est and Lifespring were the grand-daddies of LGATs. When spinoffs became numerous, the term was introduced to collectively refer to all similar self-development seminars. It’s analogous to referring to chickens, ducks and geese as “fowl”.
I cut the section on Continuing Education Credits, since they don’t seem to be universally accepted. It sounds “lame” and unspecific to say they’re sometimes accepted. Memberships mean nothing more than one pays their dues. In a full corporate biography, they should be listed. However, it’s not common practice in an encyclopedic article. I cut the paragraph on philosophical aspects, just because it wasn’t sourced and once I’d cut the extraneous information about Erhard lending Flores some money, it was superficial. However, a researched more meaningful paragraph on philosophic contributions to Landmark Education’s programs would be interesting, and could possibly be long enough to warrant a separate article. I’d warn, however, that some of the philosophic contributors might be controversial. It wouldn’t be NPOV to include only the non-controversial ones. I left the “Key ideas” sections in as placeholders, although they currently are awkward.
I consolidated all the program information into a “Programs” section, and added the “Assistants Program”, without which Landmark Education probably would not exist. I consolidated all the “studies” into an “Assessments of Effectiveness” section. I did add a subsection on “Other opinions.” Initially, I was looking into whether the previous Post hoc section should be reinstated. In checking the source cited on the Skeptic’s Dictionary page, I found that Dr. Michael Langone did not say anything about post hoc in the referenced article. He did, however, say something else, which I quoted. The section is now reasonably NPOV, although all the studies need to be researched to see if they are accurately represented.
All the controversies in the current article have been reduced to straw man arguments and then knocked down. That is not, by any stretch of the imagination, NPOV. It’s probably best to take those topics one at a time.
Let me ask a question. Was there a reason for grouping all the lawsuits together? It seems to me it would be more logical and meaningful to include them in the sections they are relevant to, e.g., the Cynthia Kisser lawsuit should be included in the section “Is it a cult?”
I’d like to say that there’s no need to go into every detail of the controversies, which tends to try the reader’s patience. After the main substance has been presented, the article would be improved by agreeing to skip the nitpicking. Kat'n'Yarn 01:29, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
Having had another look at the article, what seems to me to be missing now is any sense of what the whole operation is about or why anyone would bother. It now seems to be disproportionately involved with disputes about the validity or otherwise of the operation. There also seems to be an excessively detailed account of the historical issues. DaveApter 20:22, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
Alex Jackl 15:53, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
The "Other Programs", i.e., Assistant's Program and ILP were removed by User:Nsamuel as superfluous to reduce size of article. In all fairness, I don't agree that that information is superfluous or a necessary cut. I already cut the program information to the bone. I think further cuts should be made elsewhere. Kat'n'Yarn 04:51, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
User:Nsamuel also made three other cuts, all four labelled as minor, when only one was. I've reverted the article, keeping the one minor correction, pending discussion. Kat'n'Yarn 05:47, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
I know this has been a running battle, but if other editors are going to refer to Rick Ross as a self-styled expert, it would be fair to refer to Landmark as a self-styled education company. While Rick Ross did choose the profession, he has gained expertise through long experience, and has been widely recognized as an expert.
BTW, this article has gotten 2K longer than it was when I first cut it's length. It needs to get shorter! Kat'n'Yarn 22:31, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
Rick Ross's expertise is not "undisputed". Many feel he has an anti-cult bias. Didn't he lose a lawsuit for kidnapping a new recruit from an alleged cult? -- Uncle Ed 14:48, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
While I think the article has been improved, I think it is still missing something, and I believe a few changes would help its self-expression:
I intend to make these changes after suitable time for discussion. Happy editing. Ckerr 13:45, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
It may have been longer than ideal a few weeks ago, but it was reasonably informative and reasonably balanced. The recent extensive cuts have been disproportionately of material about the principles and methodology of Landmark's courses, whilst leaving substantially unscathed reports of various critical opinions (and even adding material which puts a positive spin on them).
A more appropriate title for the present incarnation would be "Disputes and arguments about Landmark Education". A rough analysis of the content at present is:
User Kat'n'Yarn made an admirable call for the principles which should underlie the edits to this article (opening paragraph on this page), but it is not at all clear to me that recent changes have improved its balance or its neutrality; nor making it any more of a "well-written, well-organized, clear and concise encyclopedic article".
I'm inclined to think that deleting the article completely and starting from scratch would be the best way to go, but I'll have a try at addressing some of the major shortcomings .
All of us have points of view, and a good start to being able to contribute to a collaborative venture which is consistent with Wikipedia's NPOV policy is to make a clear and straight declaration of where we stand ourselves. My position is that I did the Landmark Forum about four years ago, and have done several other courses since. I found them all challenging, beneficial and good value for money, and my impression is that somewhere between 90% and 98% of the other participants did so too. I'm not doing any Landmark courses at the moment and I've never worked for them. I think the organisation itself has its shortcomings and its peculiarities, as does any enterprise created by human beings, but none of them seem to be to be catastrophic. My committment to this article is the one articulated by Kat'n'Yarn: that it be a "well-written, well-organized, clear and concise encyclopedic article". Though no doubt our opinions on what that would look like are entirely different.
The rest of you who have written on this talk page presumably have strong views on this subject? I invite you to declare what they are, as well as what is your experience and knowledge of Landmark Education. DaveApter 14:17, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
Not to be rude, but my personal life and feelings are no one's business. I will say, however, that I'm an experienced researcher, and that is the approach I'd like to bring to this article. It's entirely possible for one to "have" a point of view and to be able to separate themselves from it, which is what this article needs.
I concur that the article still needs an enormous amount of work. Roll up your sleeves and take on a section. Kat'n'Yarn 17:26, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
As I indicated above, about 40% of the article is about controversies and lawsuits. This is way out of proportion. More appropriate would be a brief summary of the areas of dispute, who holds the various views and why, and references where more can be found out.
Controversies and complaints are minuscule in proportion to the hundreds of thousands who participate in Landmark programs and are highly satisfied. I would suggest that the entire section be deleted and replaced with a brief summary, and we then discuss on this page to reach a consensus of what to re-introduce.
Some more meaningful information about what is in the courses and the underlying philosophy would be useful. I'm working on that.
For today I've just done a few bits of minor cleaning up:
I removed 'for profit' as it's both redundant and misleading. I removed '- among those who have taken the courses, outside observers, the press, and experts.' as this is almost devoid of information, and only serves to talk up the extent of the controversey
The list of corporate officers duplicates entries already given elsewhere in the article.
I moved out of the "commisioned by LE" section the Marsall Business School and the ISPI study. If anyone has sources that indicate that LE did commission these, feel free to re-categorise them and add the citations.
I removed the paragraph about not publishing peer-reviewed work or requiring teaching experience, as these are absenses not facts. It was also POV as it implies that this is other than would be expected, whereas both are the norm for adult self-improvement education. DaveApter 15:41, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
Area-1: Results (LE cites the studies and customer testimonials; opposing points of view cite no empircal research) Area-2: Lawsuits (LE cites the three in the US against them); opposing parties cites their points of view; we shold also add the court's point of view where it exists Area-3: cult (LE cites the libel cases; opposing parties cite their points of view); here, we typically try to define the term "cult" so that we can test and contest the asserted facts.
The key point is that you don't represent any side as the truth. That's a judgement for the reader.
From Wikipedia:Reliable sources :
Company and organization websites
Caution should be used when using company or organization websites as sources. Although the company or organization is a good source of information on itself, it has an obvious bias. The American Association of Widget Manufacturers is interested in promoting widgets, so be careful not to rely on it exclusively if other reliable sources are available, in order to maintain a neutral point of view. Exercise particular care when using such a website as a source if the company or organization is a controversial one.
I was reading this article (a friend of mine wants me to do the Landmark Forum) and I noted that; this artical Outrageous_Betrayal and this artical Steven_Pressman have been completely written by User:Smeelgova. Both Articles look like advertising (and if anyone can tell me how to mark the pages as such I would love to know) Mark1800 07:16, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
I'm losing my patience on this. This article fails badly to present controversy fairly, and, instead of improving, it keeps getting worse. Using characterizations to downplay, dismiss, or discount controversial aspects is not, by any stretch of the imagination, fairly representing them. If you want to do that in your own lives, fine, but that is not allowed on Wikipedia. Kat'n'Yarn 10:54, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
It’s a fair question and deserved better than a flippant response.
I was actually quite fine with Kat'n'Yarn's response. It injected just the right amount of humour. I'm clearer now having gone to alt.fan.landmark that my point 3. above is a primary driver for most of the arguments. Mark1800 06:31, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Unless you want your grandchildren to still be haggling over this, this needs a fresh start! This article has been closer to being NPOV in the past than it is now.
To begin with, all participating editors need to have an overriding commitment to reaching a consensus on a well-written, well-organized, clear and concise encyclopedic article (according to Wikipedia's standards, not your own) where all points of view can agree that they are fairly represented. Some research may be needed to apprise yourself of the background needed to do that.
Since there was a message that the previous talk page was too long, I have moved it to Archive 2.
This entire article needs to be scrapped and begun anew. I suggest first developing an outline of sections and subsections to be covered, then fleshing out the outline. Some sections which have been previously deleted should be considered for re-inclusion. Kat'n'Yarn 17:13, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
To get the ball going, I've reworked the introduction, followed by a reworked "Origin and Evolution" section. There are so many problems with this article it's hard to know where to begin. But, for one thing, it's too long and there's a lot of promotional material and material the average encyclopedia reader isn't interested in that can just be cut. Kat'n'Yarn 18:41, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
And then I consolidated all the corporate sections into one. I've left the list of corporate officers and associations, etc. for now. However, considering that the article needs to be reduced to 2/3 it's present length (52K to 34K), we should consider cutting them. Isn't all that on Landmark's website? Kat'n'Yarn 20:47, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
This is where what's already been written can't be salvaged. Wikipedia's guidelines on Reliable sources states:
"Caution should be used when using company or organization websites as sources. Although the company or organization is a good source of information on itself, it has an obvious bias. The American Association of Widget Manufacturers is interested in promoting widgets, so be careful not to rely on it exclusively if other reliable sources are available, in order to maintain a neutral point of view. Exercise particular care when using such a website as a source if the company or organization is a controversial one."
I think a few allowances can be made, but the present article relies wholesale on Landmark Education's website. "Wikipedia articles should use reliable published sources." See also Neutral point of view. Kat'n'Yarn 03:18, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
I originally started by attempting to clean up the Management article, however, the more I look through this entire article the more I notice bizarre additions of people all over. As I mentioned in a previous discussion, I researched other major company's articles for comparisons sake and found the following: I researched other major companies to see what their articles said about their management persons/structure and found very little (please see: Tony Robbins, The Learning Company, Target Corporation, and Wal-Mart). At most, I discovered a list of Wal-Mart board members and a link to a very brief biography of the company's CEO. Even Tony Robbins article gave only a minimal description of Mr. Robbins personal life. While the heads of a company are pertinent and important to an informational article about a company—the slew of disjointed employees is not, and calls into question the NPOV of that article. Thus, I've removed a number of unnecessary persons from this article due to the fact that they have little to nothing to do with Landmark Education at present and the fact that they may have been involved at some previous point is neither pertinent nor standard information for other similar articles Blondie0309 18:18, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
(also posted on Talk:Landmark Education Vocabulary)
The "Landmark Education Vocabulary" article, and related "Vocabulary" section of this article, do not follow a number of Wikipedia guidlines:
The term 'Jargon' is also inaccruate. While Jargon is a form of terminology, Wiki says "Jargon can be distinguished from terminology in that it is informal and essentially part of the oral culture of a profession, with only limited expression in the profession's publications." The way Landmark Education makes distinctions with their language is core to their program. Their use of words in a particular manner hasn't developed informally as a lingo, it's a purposeful terminology, and therefore not precisely 'jargon'. The broader term of 'Terminology' of which jargon is a type, would be more accurate.
Pato 9:13, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
I wanted to allow a few days for comments, so I wouldn't send everyone into shock. Unless there are objections, I'd like to do some bold cutting, reorganizing, combining, summarizing to shorten the length of the article, not particularly change its content. The article is presently 52K, the recommended maximum length is 32K (see Wikipedia:article size. We need to get the job done! Kat'n'Yarn 00:37, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
I’ve reduced the article to 41 K, mainly by cutting the detailed course descriptions and promotional material. See What Wikipedia is not: “Wikipedia is not a soapbox or a vehicle for propaganda and advertising.” It still needs to lose another 9K of fat. The entire last portion of the article needs to be researched and rewritten, so hopefully the size can also be reduced there. Some notes - -
If I inadvertently cut anything which was reliably sourced and of high priority, please put it back and discuss it.
“Wikipedia is not a repository of links … excessive lists can dwarf articles and detract from the purpose of Wikipedia.” Can we agree to limit both the lists of favorable and unfavorable opinion links to five? I’ve already cut the unfavorable list, but I’d ask the “favorable” editors to edit that list. Preference should be given to websites which link to/archive multiple published articles in their entirety, not those which contain excerpts, a single article, or opinion.
I’ve cut the section on Large Group Awareness Trainings and added it as a related topic link at the bottom. As background information, est and Lifespring were the grand-daddies of LGATs. When spinoffs became numerous, the term was introduced to collectively refer to all similar self-development seminars. It’s analogous to referring to chickens, ducks and geese as “fowl”.
I cut the section on Continuing Education Credits, since they don’t seem to be universally accepted. It sounds “lame” and unspecific to say they’re sometimes accepted. Memberships mean nothing more than one pays their dues. In a full corporate biography, they should be listed. However, it’s not common practice in an encyclopedic article. I cut the paragraph on philosophical aspects, just because it wasn’t sourced and once I’d cut the extraneous information about Erhard lending Flores some money, it was superficial. However, a researched more meaningful paragraph on philosophic contributions to Landmark Education’s programs would be interesting, and could possibly be long enough to warrant a separate article. I’d warn, however, that some of the philosophic contributors might be controversial. It wouldn’t be NPOV to include only the non-controversial ones. I left the “Key ideas” sections in as placeholders, although they currently are awkward.
I consolidated all the program information into a “Programs” section, and added the “Assistants Program”, without which Landmark Education probably would not exist. I consolidated all the “studies” into an “Assessments of Effectiveness” section. I did add a subsection on “Other opinions.” Initially, I was looking into whether the previous Post hoc section should be reinstated. In checking the source cited on the Skeptic’s Dictionary page, I found that Dr. Michael Langone did not say anything about post hoc in the referenced article. He did, however, say something else, which I quoted. The section is now reasonably NPOV, although all the studies need to be researched to see if they are accurately represented.
All the controversies in the current article have been reduced to straw man arguments and then knocked down. That is not, by any stretch of the imagination, NPOV. It’s probably best to take those topics one at a time.
Let me ask a question. Was there a reason for grouping all the lawsuits together? It seems to me it would be more logical and meaningful to include them in the sections they are relevant to, e.g., the Cynthia Kisser lawsuit should be included in the section “Is it a cult?”
I’d like to say that there’s no need to go into every detail of the controversies, which tends to try the reader’s patience. After the main substance has been presented, the article would be improved by agreeing to skip the nitpicking. Kat'n'Yarn 01:29, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
Having had another look at the article, what seems to me to be missing now is any sense of what the whole operation is about or why anyone would bother. It now seems to be disproportionately involved with disputes about the validity or otherwise of the operation. There also seems to be an excessively detailed account of the historical issues. DaveApter 20:22, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
Alex Jackl 15:53, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
The "Other Programs", i.e., Assistant's Program and ILP were removed by User:Nsamuel as superfluous to reduce size of article. In all fairness, I don't agree that that information is superfluous or a necessary cut. I already cut the program information to the bone. I think further cuts should be made elsewhere. Kat'n'Yarn 04:51, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
User:Nsamuel also made three other cuts, all four labelled as minor, when only one was. I've reverted the article, keeping the one minor correction, pending discussion. Kat'n'Yarn 05:47, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
I know this has been a running battle, but if other editors are going to refer to Rick Ross as a self-styled expert, it would be fair to refer to Landmark as a self-styled education company. While Rick Ross did choose the profession, he has gained expertise through long experience, and has been widely recognized as an expert.
BTW, this article has gotten 2K longer than it was when I first cut it's length. It needs to get shorter! Kat'n'Yarn 22:31, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
Rick Ross's expertise is not "undisputed". Many feel he has an anti-cult bias. Didn't he lose a lawsuit for kidnapping a new recruit from an alleged cult? -- Uncle Ed 14:48, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
While I think the article has been improved, I think it is still missing something, and I believe a few changes would help its self-expression:
I intend to make these changes after suitable time for discussion. Happy editing. Ckerr 13:45, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
It may have been longer than ideal a few weeks ago, but it was reasonably informative and reasonably balanced. The recent extensive cuts have been disproportionately of material about the principles and methodology of Landmark's courses, whilst leaving substantially unscathed reports of various critical opinions (and even adding material which puts a positive spin on them).
A more appropriate title for the present incarnation would be "Disputes and arguments about Landmark Education". A rough analysis of the content at present is:
User Kat'n'Yarn made an admirable call for the principles which should underlie the edits to this article (opening paragraph on this page), but it is not at all clear to me that recent changes have improved its balance or its neutrality; nor making it any more of a "well-written, well-organized, clear and concise encyclopedic article".
I'm inclined to think that deleting the article completely and starting from scratch would be the best way to go, but I'll have a try at addressing some of the major shortcomings .
All of us have points of view, and a good start to being able to contribute to a collaborative venture which is consistent with Wikipedia's NPOV policy is to make a clear and straight declaration of where we stand ourselves. My position is that I did the Landmark Forum about four years ago, and have done several other courses since. I found them all challenging, beneficial and good value for money, and my impression is that somewhere between 90% and 98% of the other participants did so too. I'm not doing any Landmark courses at the moment and I've never worked for them. I think the organisation itself has its shortcomings and its peculiarities, as does any enterprise created by human beings, but none of them seem to be to be catastrophic. My committment to this article is the one articulated by Kat'n'Yarn: that it be a "well-written, well-organized, clear and concise encyclopedic article". Though no doubt our opinions on what that would look like are entirely different.
The rest of you who have written on this talk page presumably have strong views on this subject? I invite you to declare what they are, as well as what is your experience and knowledge of Landmark Education. DaveApter 14:17, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
Not to be rude, but my personal life and feelings are no one's business. I will say, however, that I'm an experienced researcher, and that is the approach I'd like to bring to this article. It's entirely possible for one to "have" a point of view and to be able to separate themselves from it, which is what this article needs.
I concur that the article still needs an enormous amount of work. Roll up your sleeves and take on a section. Kat'n'Yarn 17:26, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
As I indicated above, about 40% of the article is about controversies and lawsuits. This is way out of proportion. More appropriate would be a brief summary of the areas of dispute, who holds the various views and why, and references where more can be found out.
Controversies and complaints are minuscule in proportion to the hundreds of thousands who participate in Landmark programs and are highly satisfied. I would suggest that the entire section be deleted and replaced with a brief summary, and we then discuss on this page to reach a consensus of what to re-introduce.
Some more meaningful information about what is in the courses and the underlying philosophy would be useful. I'm working on that.
For today I've just done a few bits of minor cleaning up:
I removed 'for profit' as it's both redundant and misleading. I removed '- among those who have taken the courses, outside observers, the press, and experts.' as this is almost devoid of information, and only serves to talk up the extent of the controversey
The list of corporate officers duplicates entries already given elsewhere in the article.
I moved out of the "commisioned by LE" section the Marsall Business School and the ISPI study. If anyone has sources that indicate that LE did commission these, feel free to re-categorise them and add the citations.
I removed the paragraph about not publishing peer-reviewed work or requiring teaching experience, as these are absenses not facts. It was also POV as it implies that this is other than would be expected, whereas both are the norm for adult self-improvement education. DaveApter 15:41, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
Area-1: Results (LE cites the studies and customer testimonials; opposing points of view cite no empircal research) Area-2: Lawsuits (LE cites the three in the US against them); opposing parties cites their points of view; we shold also add the court's point of view where it exists Area-3: cult (LE cites the libel cases; opposing parties cite their points of view); here, we typically try to define the term "cult" so that we can test and contest the asserted facts.
The key point is that you don't represent any side as the truth. That's a judgement for the reader.
From Wikipedia:Reliable sources :
Company and organization websites
Caution should be used when using company or organization websites as sources. Although the company or organization is a good source of information on itself, it has an obvious bias. The American Association of Widget Manufacturers is interested in promoting widgets, so be careful not to rely on it exclusively if other reliable sources are available, in order to maintain a neutral point of view. Exercise particular care when using such a website as a source if the company or organization is a controversial one.
I was reading this article (a friend of mine wants me to do the Landmark Forum) and I noted that; this artical Outrageous_Betrayal and this artical Steven_Pressman have been completely written by User:Smeelgova. Both Articles look like advertising (and if anyone can tell me how to mark the pages as such I would love to know) Mark1800 07:16, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
I'm losing my patience on this. This article fails badly to present controversy fairly, and, instead of improving, it keeps getting worse. Using characterizations to downplay, dismiss, or discount controversial aspects is not, by any stretch of the imagination, fairly representing them. If you want to do that in your own lives, fine, but that is not allowed on Wikipedia. Kat'n'Yarn 10:54, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
It’s a fair question and deserved better than a flippant response.
I was actually quite fine with Kat'n'Yarn's response. It injected just the right amount of humour. I'm clearer now having gone to alt.fan.landmark that my point 3. above is a primary driver for most of the arguments. Mark1800 06:31, 20 September 2006 (UTC)