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I am suggesting taking out the line from Section "6." of the Lawsuits section regarding Landmark withdrawing its suit against RIck Ross. The line was "avoiding paying legal expenses of the opposing counsel". I want to take it out (I actually took it out and reverted because I didn't want to start an edit war- wanted to discuss first) because it is inherently a POV line. If a pro-Landmark perosn had written that sentence it could have said "because Landmark knew it couldn't win the suit, despite knowing Ross was in the wrong" Both statements might be the perception on both sides and both would argue it is accurate. Therefore we should stick to the facts.
Some might argue that Landmark did NOT pay legal expenses for opposing counsel (I don't know either way by the way- I am making no assertions of fact) therefore this is a factual addition. But although it may be true it is a debating trick- say a small fact that leaves the listener with a negative or positive impression yet defend it because it is indeed factual. Much money was spent (I am sure) on both sides of this suit- both sides made decisions that cost them money and saved them money and that avoided expenses. That is irrelevent in the context of an encyclopedia article on Landmark Education.
Also, it states: "In response to this serious threat to the free speech and privacy rights of the anonymous users of this website, the internet civil liberties group, the [Electronic Frontier Foundation] with the support of [Harvard Law School]’s [Berkman Center for Internet & Society], sought to participate in the case as amicus curiae, in order to argue against such intrusive discovery tactics."
What follows after this - which is a quote from the Electronic Frontier Foundation- is fine. But this sentence is blantantly POV. From an NPOV perspective that sentence presumes a great deal: "serious threat to free speech and privacy rights" "against such intrusive discovery tactics". Clearly and obviously this drama-laden language needs to be made a little more objective to say the least.
The truth is this article is littered with examples like this that IMO should be addressed... but one or two things at a time.
Alex Jackl 14:23, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
First of all to Alex Jackl: thank you SO MUCH for acting so politely with regard to making your specific points above. With regard to your proposed edits, here is what I would suggest:
User Smeelgova could you explain the revert you did to my editing. I made the following edits:
I have implemented your edit suggestion , number 2 above. Yours, Smeelgova 23:46, 7 October 2006 (UTC).
Smeelgova 17:23, 8 October 2006 (UTC).
I am again going to remove the factually incorrect information, as per my original edits. I also ask that Smeelgova does not make any more changes to this section without providing Reliable sources
Interestingly User:Smeelgova has placed a counter claim on the Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/3RR. I am unclear if my initial edit counts. Anyone know? Mark1800 06:11, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
User:Smeelgova, My request is that we do not edit the section in question until we either come to a concensus or we obtain mediation on it. Could you please indicate you agreement or disagreement. Mark1800 (I'm ok with the spelling corrections, please feel free to do that at any time. I suck at spelling)
The paragraph in question.
In December 2005, Landmark Education withdrew the lawsuit with prejudice, avoiding paying legal expenses of the opposing counsel and legal discovery of trade secrets, on the grounds that a material change in caselaw regarding statements made on the Internet occurred in January 2005. Landmark Education issued a press release on the matter. The Rick Ross Institute responded.
Case presented by Mark1800
Response
In December 2005, Landmark Education withdrew the lawsuit with prejudice, on the grounds that a material change in caselaw regarding statements made on the Internet occurred in January 2005. Rick Ross' attorneys had been trying to obtain legal discovery of trade secrets prior to the case's withdrawal. The Rick Ross Institute [1] to a press release from Landmark on the issue.
Request I'm fine with what you have written, I have an opinion that it is slighty POV slanted, however I'm aware that is my opinion.
In April 2005, Landmark Education filed to dismiss its own lawsuit with prejudice on the grounds that a material change in caselaw regarding statements made on the Internet occurred in January 2005; see Donato v. Moldow, 374 N.J. Super. 475 (N.J. App. Div. 2005), which held an operator of an online bulletin board not liable for defamatory statements posted by others on his bulletin board, unless he made a "material substantive contribution" to the defamatory material. At the time of withdrawl Rick Ross' attorneys had been trying to obtain legal discovery of trade secrets, and they claimed this was the reason for the withdrawl. [2]
Per above:
I'm fine with what you have written, I have an opinion that it is slighty POV slanted, however I'm aware that is my opinion. Thank you for acknowledging your POV. I as well acknowledge that I have an opinion that it is slighty POV slanted. Thank you for also saying that you are fine with what I have written. It seems that we have reached a consensus, sigh, awesome. I personally think that as a concise section, this brief piece works where it is at the moment. Yours,
Smeelgova
03:28, 12 October 2006 (UTC).
This sections now appears to be link building to me. I think the references are quite redundant. Spacefarer 12:02, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
Landmark Education could have requested withdraw either WITH PREJUDICE or WITHOUT PREJUDICE (meaning it could be refiled). When withdrawn without prejudice, it could be refiled, and the defense would have been justified in seeking compensation, because they might have to defend again. The judge agreed that Landmark Education had brought the suit in good faith, and the last six months were an unsuccessful effort of Rick Ross to keep the case alive on grounds Landmark had not brought the case in good faith. The judge further agree that the change in internet case law (Donato versus Moldow) was a valid reason for withdrawing the case. The avoidance of discovery is the opinion of Rick Ross and his lawyers, but both Landmark and the judge are on the same side. This section needs to be better written to reflect this.
I removed this paragraph for the following reasons:
The courts aren't helping matters. For example, Landmark Education, an international training and development company that presents The Landmark Forum, dropped its lawsuit in New Jersey against Rick Ross, a self-professed "cult expert" who has built a career and reputation by quoting people's opinions on his Web site. Landmark Education terminated its lawsuit when, in an unrelated case, a New Jersey court significantly limited the kind of Internet behavior it would consider damages for. Court decisions like that make it even more difficult for companies to protect themselves against misinformation and false accusations.
Ross, who claims he's an expert on cults, religions and any organization he deems potentially harmful, should be held to a higher standard - not a lesser one. Rick Ross is a convicted felon with no degree of any kind. He says so on his own web site. His lack of professional qualifications doesn't stop Ross from freely labeling credible organizations in the personal development area "worthless" and "faked." While Ross acknowledges that Landmark Education is definitely not a cult, he nevertheless smears the company through innuendo. Ross also attacks John Gray, author of "Men are From Mars, Women are From Venus," the Mormon Church and the practice of yoga.
[1] Sm1969 06:00, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
That being said I made minor edits taking some POV spin off the article talking about Landmark's legal actions as threats and manuevers. That is very pointed language. A pro-Landmark POV person might have said "defended itself against outrageous accusations" or some such equally POV statement. Let's use neutral language... Alex Jackl 06:53, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
Landmark Education, whose Chairman Art Schreiber also acts as the organization's General Counsel, has a history of making legal threats and demands, not all of which end in courtroom litigation (for some of those, see Landmark Education litigation. And given the organization's reputation, other parties have also resorted to legalistic maneuvers when their beliefs bring them into conflict with Landmark Education.
Smeelgova objects to the inclusion of the rest of this quote. Smeelgova first stated that it was a personal attack on Rick Ross. The Wikipedia policy on personal attacks is from editor-to-editor, not article-subject to article-subject. Smeelgova then objected to it not being relevant to Landmark Education. On the contrary, I believe it is precisely on point. What is Smeelgova's latest objection? The quote follows. Sm1969 04:00, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
Ross, who claims he's an expert on cults, religions and any organization he deems potentially harmful, should be held to a higher standard - not a lesser one. Rick Ross is a convicted felon with no degree of any kind. He says so on his own web site. His lack of professional qualifications doesn't stop Ross from freely labeling credible organizations in the personal development area "worthless" and "faked." While Ross acknowledges that Landmark Education is definitely not a cult, he nevertheless smears the company through innuendo. Ross also attacks John Gray, author of "Men are From Mars, Women are From Venus," the Mormon Church and the practice of yoga.
There appears to be some sort of fork of this page at Landmark Education and the law. Someone asked to speedy it as an attack page, but I'm concerned there may be edit history/information present that needs to be retained. The page has existed in some form or another for about two weeks. -- nae' blis 20:23, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
The two pages currently appearing as Landmark Education and the law and as Landmark Education litigation first originated as a single fork from the Landmark Education article following some complaints that that article had become too long. On 21 October 2006 I set up the forked material as an article and carefully named it Landmark Education and the law in an attempt to allow it to cover both specific cases of litigation as well as non-court-case legal activities undertaken by both Landmark Education (the corporation) and other parties.
On 20 November 2006 User:Jossi renamed the article from Landmark Education and the law to Landmark Education litigation, commenting "more appropriate name for comments". As a result, this left no home for non-litigation law-oriented material as inappropriate to the new title. Accordingly on 22 November 2006 I resurrected the Landmark Education and the law article from its status as a redirection and archived/edited there such (not insubstantial) material as related to legal but non-litigated events and trends.
I have no objection to (re-)merging the two articles, so long as we do not lose relevant edits relating to the broader field of Landmark Education's interactions with legal goings-on. However, I would point out that each separate article has a substantial body of text and that each has attracted some spirited editing. If they continue a separate existence, of course, each article should link to the other.
Neither article appears to me to constitute an "attack page" -- each one details (as a matter of record) documented actions undertaken by various parties within the legal systems of the world. Attacks (such as those on Rick Ross) appear in the context of such legal maneuverings.
-- Pedant17 01:28, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
Completed the merge and copyedited the resulting article, including removal of editorializing and OR commentary, as well as NPOVng the tone as per tags on the merged article. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 03:16, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
Now that we have a merged article containing the former article Landmark Education litigation and the former article Landmark Education and the law and now that the size of our combined article has reached a size of 58 Kb and attracts warnings/suggestions concerning splitting per Wikipedia:Article size and now that the current title of the article (Landmark Education litigation) does not adequately cover the non-litigation elements in the article -- perhaps we should consider how we might best split this article again. -- Pedant17 01:58, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
The title of this article is Landmark Education Litigation. These Labor investigations do not have anything to do with litigation. Also, I question the notability of the investigations Triplejumper 13:40, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
I have removed the following line. I believe that by 'collecting' the list of sources and presenting them as a 'list of coverage', we are doing original research. Its a technicality, but still OR. If those sources had something specific to say which adds value, then they SHOULD be included with proper citations. But simply listing a block of sources that covered it, is original research unless a secondary source has done this and we can 'cite' them as saying it first.
The newly re-filed court case, and subsequent transfer to Oklahoma City received coverage in the Tulsa World,
[2] on KSWO News, [3] in the Bartlesville Examiner Enterprise, [4] as well as on KFDA News in Amarillo, Texas [5] and on KTEN News in Ada, Oklahoma [6].
Peace. Lsi john 14:55, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
Most recent version is promoting a law firm that is a litigant in the article. Louislouislewee 15:13, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
I have run into formatting issues at the bottom of the article. I was unable to add information without sections becoming linked together even with the ==Headings== added. The formatting is not behaving normally. At the moment, I have lost the section about Rick Ross. Triplejumper 22:35, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
Anyone up for tackling this? Source citation is easy. Nov 23, 2007, article in The Washington Times, I believe, available online. Arcana imperii Ascendo tuum ( talk) 00:31, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
Is there any real justification for including this article? Surely it would only be called for if there were an exceptionally large amount of litigation involving this company? Does anyone suggest that sixteen cases in sixteen years for a company with a million customers is even worthy of mention, much less an entire article? DaveApter ( talk) 17:09, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
Why and how did this happen, what was the rationale? -- Pax Arcane 04:19, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
I removed what seems to be a silly sentence from the lead: "Relatively few (if any) have taken place in Turkmenistan or Haiti." I cannot imagine why this should be in the article. Please discuss here and give reasons and a source if you want to reinstate. Timb66 ( talk) 12:02, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
I removed the Skolnik stuff because it is an advert - they are lawyers on one side of the dispute (against) with Landmark and have posted this page. They, if referenced at all, should CERTAINLY not be in the opening paragraphs. This is frankly a questionable article to begin with in terms of notability.
21st Century Democrats is not a litigation that directly involves the company at all- it is merley mentinoe din an unrleated suit. COme on! .
Alex Jackl ( talk) 16:16, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
A Wikipedian suggested on 2008-03-21 that "21st Century Democrats is not a litigation that directly involves the company at all- it is merley mentinoe din an unrleated suit."[sic] This assertion appears to relate to the source: McElhatton, Jim. "Democratic PAC faces lawsuit for employee 'religious events'", in The Washington Times, 2007-11-27, pp. Nation/Politics (retrieved 2008-03-23. That article makes it clear that the activities and "influences" (if not the "company") of Landmark Education stand at the heart of the legal case involving the 21st Century Democrats organization and its former employees. Allegations about the nature and religiosity of Landmark Education courses figure prominently in the Washington Times summary of the case. That makes this subject eminently suitable for inclusion in an article devoted to Landmark Education 'as a plaintiff, as a defendant, or as a subject "relevant" to other lawsuits' (to quote from our lead sentence. -- Pedant17 ( talk) 01:05, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
The Wikipedia lead-section guideline encourages sourced summary in the lead: "The lead should ... summarize the most important points, explain why the subject is interesting or notable, and briefly describe its notable controversies, if ... any. ... It should contain up to four paragraphs, should be carefully sourced as appropriate, ..."
Accordingly, I propose copying relevant summarized summary-information from the "Legal archive and summary" section into the lead.
-- Pedant17 ( talk) 01:46, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
--- I do not think the Skolnik refence is appropriate for the lead of this article. It violates WP:Lead to leave it there. Triplejumper ( talk) 17:51, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
Who ever put the growing generations information into the article was violating WP:NPOV. The section cited a press release by Landmark Education saying 'That references and acknowledges the existence of the suit'. There seems to be a lot more to that press release than that one statement. Having now read both the article from the Village Voice the press-release from Landmark Education- I think the way this has been included is definitely in violation of WP:NPOV. I took it out. Including that case when there are pretty oblique connections to Landmark Education {The actual point of the press release I believe), it just seems a little low brow to include it in the article. The whole case just seems frivolous and what I especially don't get about it is if the guy who has brought the law suit is so concerned about his "Christian Beliefs", what was he doing working for an outfit that helps gay and lesbian couples have biological children? I just don't think it is relevant to this article. Triplejumper ( talk) 18:14, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
At 1933 hours on 2008-06-02 a Wikipedian removed the template: {{ landmarkForum}} from this article, adding the edit-summary: "removed inappropriate template box". Failing explication of the specific way(s) in which this template appears inappropriate, I propose restoring the template, which, appropriately enough, includes a link to the current article on "Landmark Education litigation" (as well as links to other relevant and related background material). -- Pedant17 ( talk) 02:14, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
It should be out of the articles because Werner Erhard is not involved in Landmark Education and is not involved in legal issues. Spacefarer ( talk) 19:53, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
On 2008-06-11 at 2014 hours a Wikipedian removed the following navigation-aid from the article: This article discusses litigation involving Landmark Education. For legal matters and legal views involving Landmark Education but less directly linked to litigation, see Landmark Education and the law. and commented in the Edit-summary: "There is already a link to the POV fork "Landmark Education and the Law" in the see also section it definitely doesn't belong in the lead here." -- The removed text did not form part of the lead, but rather represented an article-specific navigation/disambiguation template, marked off from the lead by appearing in italics and separated from the lead by a horizontal rule or line. It appears inappropriate to criticize it as part of the lead. -- To refer to the Wikipedia article [[[Landmark Education and the law]] as a "POV fork" does not do justice to that article, which once formed the repository for the material subsequently renamed as our current article "Landmark Education litigation" (see the "History" page for "Landmark Education and the law".-- Any discussion as to whether the article Landmark Education and the law (an ancestor page of our current article) lacks in some way a neutral point of view should take place in the Talk-page of that article, not in the edit-summary fields of our current article. -- When articles get spun off, Wikipedia guidelines strongly encourage linking and summarizing: see Wikipedia:Content forking. Failing merging of these two articles, let's at least encourage readers to note the existence of the extra not-unrelated material and readily click to it if desired. -- Pedant17 ( talk) 02:50, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
Can anyone explain what is the justification in having this article included in an encyclopedia? This site is supposed to be dealing in facts, not unsupported and discredited snippets of opinion.
The opening paragraph of the introductions states: "Since its adoption of approximately its current structure in 1991, Landmark Education has become involved in a variety of legal proceedings"
Well, yes - the anti-landmark polemicists have managed to dredge up two cases where attempts have been made to sue Landmark Education (in neither of which was a clear judgement against Landmark forthcoming), two where they are mentioned tangentially in disputes between other parties, and 13 where Landmark either sued or threatened to sue for libel or defamation (in the majority of which, the defendant withdrew rather than substantiated their original allegations).
Does anyone seriously suggest that this amount of legal activity in connection with a company that has had well over a million customers over a 17 year period is even noteworthy, much less deserving of an entire article? DaveApter ( talk) 15:20, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
In reply to User:Triplejumper's note dated 14:40, 19 August 2008 (UTC): Thank you for not removing the Skolnik and Norwick summary from the article. It might help to restore that summary to the article. -- Within WP:LEAD, the WP:LEADCITE guideline encourages appropriate use of quotation and citation, stating: "The lead must conform to verifiability and other policies. The verifiability policy advises that material that is challenged or likely to be challenged, and quotations, should be cited. Because the lead will usually repeat information also in the body, editors should balance the desire to avoid redundant citations in the lead with the desire to aid readers in locating sources for challengeable material. Leads are usually written at a greater level of generality than the body, and information in the lead section of non-controversial subjects is less likely to be challenged and less likely to require a source; there is not, however, an exception to citation requirements specific to leads. The necessity for citations in a lead should be determined on a case-by-case basis by editorial consensus. Complex, current, or controversial subjects may require many citations; others, few or none. Contentious material about living persons must be cited every time, regardless of the level of generality." -- Given that the Skolnik and Norwick summary relates to potentially controversial material and to some living persons, it seems appropriate that we quote and reference such balancing/NPOVizing material -- which provides much-needed summary -- with care and thoroughness. In the circumstances, I propose to restore the Skolnik/Norwick summary to the lead: I believe I have addressed on this Talk-page all outstanding objections to so doing. Any specific objections? -- Pedant17 ( talk) 01:12, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
On 2008-08-23 at 0217 hours a Wikipedian changed the text: "The Swiss subsidiary, Landmark Education AG,[...] instituted formal legal proceedings [...] demanding that infoSekta cease distributing information about Landmark Education" so that it read: "The Swiss subsidiary, Landmark Education AG,[...] instituted formal legal proceedings [...] demanding that infoSekta cease distributing information about the company". This change introduces ambiguity: it leaves the reader unclear whether "the company" refers to Landmark Education Corporation or to Landmark Education AG. (Note that the relevant source makes specific mention of judicial representations on behalf of of two groups: "Ein Zürcher Anwalt meldete sich im Namen der amerikanischen Zentrale und der schweizerischen Tochterfirma." [A lawyer from Zurich represented the American Head Office and the Swiss subsidiary.] (Sträuli, Dieter (1997). "Landmark vs. infoSekta: Geschichte eines Prozesses [Landmark vs infoSekta: Account of a Trial]". infoSekta-Tätigkeitsbericht 1997 [infoSekta-Activity-report 1997] (in German). pp. 16–20. Retrieved 2008-10-02.) Futhermore, the Swiss source makes it clear that the material distributed by infoSekta related not so much to any company as to the content and nature of Landmark Education's seminars and activities. Substituting "the company" for "Landmark Education" therefore distorts the description of the case. Accordingly, I propose that we substitute a formulation such as "... cease distributing information about Landmark Education's course-contents and methods". -- Pedant17 ( talk) 00:42, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
On
2009-08-23
2008-08-23 at 0218 hours a Wikipedian changed the the text "The [Swiss] magazine [FACTS] allegedly later retracted this statement after Landmark Education took legal action" to read "The [Swiss] magazine [FACTS] later retracted this statement after Landmark Education took legal action" and noted in the edit-summary: "remove weasel wording; ref is there". The footnote reference for the alleged retraction links to
http://www.infosekta.ch/is5/gruppen/lm_straeuli1998.html -- which does not mention FACTS magazine. That leaves us with an unsupported assertion of a retraction "after Landmark Education took legal action". Until such time as we have good documentary evidence of the retraction (and of the alleged legal action) from a reliable and independent source, we can as editors qualify the claim by labelling it "alleged". Alternatively, if we can track down some account of the alleged legal action, we can attribute any specific statements made on the matter to their proper source. --
Pedant17 (
talk)
00:42, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
On 2008-08-23 at 0220 hours a Wikipedian altered the section on the suing of Margaret Singer, changing the words: "the text did not make it entirely clear whether she labeled Landmark Education as a cult or not" to read: "the text did not make it entirely clear whether she labeled the organization as a cult or not". Such a change appears to misrepresent Margaret Singer's opposition -- not to the mere "organization", but to the whole complex of Landmark Education, its actions, methods and effects. Note that her carefully-worded statement quoted later in the same paragraph of the article refers not to any organisation. but to "Landmark" and to "The Landmark Forum". And weigh up the note in the introduction to the second printing of Singer and Lalich's book, Cults in our Midst: "In fact, and with much regret, this edition of the book contains a rather glaring omission in my historical account of a certain movement. Despite the profound impact of one particular person and his organization on the spread of certain types of training, I have not mentioned this well-known leader and his international organization. I have taken this step due to the pendancy of a meritless lawsuit against me and Jana Lalich arising from the publication of the hard-cover edition of this book... For these reasons, and because I want to keep on helping ex-members of cults understand what happened to them and how to overcome some of the long-lasting damage cult behavior has brought into their lives, I have elected to write generically of cults, so that my energies can continue to be directed to studying cults and helping cult victims. ..." (page XXIV of Margaret Singer and Janja Lalich: Cults in our midst, first paperback edition, San Francisco: Jossey-Bass, 1996 ISBN 0-7879-0266-7 ) -- Note the broader context: the "movement", "training", the "leader" and the "victims". -- Moreover, the lawsuit itself, as brought by Landmark Education against Singer and Lalich, stresses that it objects not merely to representation of Landmark Education (the organization), but also to the representation of "the Landmark Forum program" -- see pages 5 and 6 of the complaint in the Supreme Court of the State of New York, dated February 13 1996, reproduced online as part of the Landmark Education Litigation Archive. The complaint goes on to highlight issues of workplace activities and Large Group Awareness Trainings and thought reform and brainwashing and "coercive psychological influence" and totalism -- all in relation to the activities (rather than the organization) of Landmark Education. -- The lawsuit issues between Singer and Landmark Education involved a lot more than a mere "organization". Our encyclopedia account should reflect this by referring to "Landmark Education" -- as a meme-package -- in this context, rather than as a mere "organization". -- Pedant17 ( talk) 02:24, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
On 2008-09-03 at 1419 and 1421 hours a Wikipedian removed passages from the article (see diff which deprived a sententence of a main clause and left a footnote dangling. I propose that we we remedy the situation by changing the original sentence to read:
In 1999 Art Schreiber of Landmark Education commented on the case in terms of brainwashing as a medical matter involving Lell as a perceived patient:
Mr. Lell was not "brainwashed". As the record at the Hearing indicated, following completion of The Landmark Forum Mr. Lell did not see a doctor; was not hospitalized; did not seek or obtain medication; and was not diagnosed by a medical professional as being brainwashed or having any mental problem. [7]
-- Pedant17 ( talk) 00:24, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
On September 3, 2008 at 1424 hours a Wikipedian altered the article by "balancing" a non-sourced simplified over-specific claim ("with infoSekta agreeing not to call Landmark Education a cult") with a vagueness ("some matters") and noting in the edit-summary "Balanced this section a little". As the edit unbalanced and oversimplified the section, I propose reducing the comment and relying on the quote provided to convey the information: "In the matter of content we can happily assert that the substantive points of infoSekta's work stand. As previously, we can claim that Landmark shows cultic traits, so long as we emphasize at the same time that we wish to avoid a facile labeling as a cult (Sekte). (Such a labeling we would wish to avoid on principle and in any case.) As before, we can continue to express doubts as to the professionalism and the seriousness of Landmark's course-offerings (the agreement expressly states this). And finally, when asked about the matter, we can advise against attending [Landmark] courses." -- Pedant17 ( talk) 01:39, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
On September 3, 2008 at 1428 a Wikipedian
edited the article and added the edit-summary "Panorama Magazine (The Netherlands): Removed a link to a non-reliable opinion web piece that has no place in an article on legal matters an article". The edit had the effect of removing an alternative report on the outcome of a court case in the Netherlands, leaving only the reference sourced from Landmark Education (an interested party), which concentrates only on part of the case. Since different points of view evidently exist as to the outcome, it seems appropriate for
verification to reference the full transcript of the court judgment, (van Maanen, C.J.J. (1999-05-04).
"Vonnis Rechtbank Haarlem 4 mei 1999: Integrale tekst van het vonnis (zaaknr: 54.917/KG ZA 99-176) in Kort Geding van de Arrondissementsrechtbank te Haarlem d.d. 4 mei 1999" (in Dutch). Harlem District Law Bench. Retrieved 2009-01-12. {{
cite web}}
: Cite has empty unknown parameters: |month=
and |coauthors=
(
help)
which makes it clear that although Landmark Education won a few points on matters of verbal technicalities relating to definitions and the exact role of Jack Rosenberg/
Werner Erhard (sections 3,4 and 3.10 and 3.11 of the judgment), the judge identified misquotations by Landmark Education of the Panorama article ( sections 3.13 and 3.14 of the judgement), dismissed Landmark Education's case for a published correction (rectificatie) of the Panorama article (section 3.20 of the judgement), upheld the right of freedom of expression of opinion (de vrijheid van meningsuiting, section 3.22 of the judgment), rejected demands (section 2.2 of the judgment) for Panorama's owners to pay damages, and ordered Landmark Education to pay the costs of the case (section 4.2 of the judgment). (For reference, Panorama originally published the article in dispute as
"Nederland Sektenland". Panorama (in Dutch). VNU. January 1999. pp. 37–52. Retrieved 2009-01-12. {{
cite news}}
: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors=
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ignored (
help)) --
Pedant17 (
talk)
02:14, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
A checkuser case resulted in "confirm" on several users as sockpuppets of each other, that edited articles on closely related topics including Landmark Education, Werner Erhard, Landmark Education litigation, Scientology and Werner Erhard, Erhard Seminars Training, and Werner Erhard and Associates, among others. As a result, several of these users and sockpuppets of each other have been blocked. The checkuser case page is here: Wikipedia:Requests for checkuser/Case/Eastbayway. Cirt ( talk) 00:59, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
This section doesn't describe any litigation. Should we move it to the Landmark and the law page? Eaglebreath ( talk) 22:53, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
I'm wondering whether this article could do with general overhaul? It seems to me to be written from a perspective that is far from a neutral point of view. DaveApter ( talk) 10:40, 30 April 2011 (UTC)
The article appears to be a coatrack to air a string of negative allegations about Landmark, most of which have not been substantiated in the ensuing legal proceedings, thus violating the undue weight policies.
Furthermore several of the sources which are quoted at length do not meet Wikipedia's criteria for reliability, being self-published websites belonging to individuals who are party to the disputes being described here. I really would have thought that the amount of legal activity did not represent an adequate justification for its own article at all, in the context of a corporation that had been trading for 20 years and served well over a million customers. But if it is to continue, it should be condensed and given a more evenly balanced tone, and the unreliable sources excised. DaveApter ( talk) 16:39, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
There's a section of this article that seems superfluous, the section that discusses lawsuits that Landmark wasn't even a party to, both of which were dismissed without merit. Why are these even in here? Dismissed suits that mention Landmark without directly involving it seem outside the scope of this article. Nwlaw63 ( talk) 00:13, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
I pruned this article some, given the requirements that we use reliable secondary sources and all that jazz. My edit was reverted here, by the topic-banned Zambelo, but I feel I should address their revert and the rather inaccurate edit summary, "please discuss your vast and POV changes before you implement them". First of all, I'm not going to discuss every single edit I make first, and given their topic ban I could hardly have discussed it with them. Imagine if we had to discuss every single edit. Second, there is nothing "vast" about these changes IF we consider that, well, material needs to have adequate secondary sourcing. I made my changes in fourteen separate edits, each one accompanied by a summary explaining the reason for the edit. I challenge anyone who wishes to challenge them to prove that the sourcing was indeed adequate--but worse, that sourcing will have to be prove to be adequate, since it was incredibly deficient. Third, that my edits were "POV" is, in my book, a personal attack, and I deny having a POV on Landmark or any other NRM. But that's hardly the point for this article: WP:RS is, plain and simple. Drmies ( talk) 19:06, 14 October 2014 (UTC)
Mr. Lell was not "brainwashed". As the record at the Hearing indicated, following completion of The Landmark Forum Mr. Lell did not see a doctor; was not hospitalized; did not seek or obtain medication; and was not diagnosed by a medical professional as being brainwashed or having any mental problem.
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![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
I am suggesting taking out the line from Section "6." of the Lawsuits section regarding Landmark withdrawing its suit against RIck Ross. The line was "avoiding paying legal expenses of the opposing counsel". I want to take it out (I actually took it out and reverted because I didn't want to start an edit war- wanted to discuss first) because it is inherently a POV line. If a pro-Landmark perosn had written that sentence it could have said "because Landmark knew it couldn't win the suit, despite knowing Ross was in the wrong" Both statements might be the perception on both sides and both would argue it is accurate. Therefore we should stick to the facts.
Some might argue that Landmark did NOT pay legal expenses for opposing counsel (I don't know either way by the way- I am making no assertions of fact) therefore this is a factual addition. But although it may be true it is a debating trick- say a small fact that leaves the listener with a negative or positive impression yet defend it because it is indeed factual. Much money was spent (I am sure) on both sides of this suit- both sides made decisions that cost them money and saved them money and that avoided expenses. That is irrelevent in the context of an encyclopedia article on Landmark Education.
Also, it states: "In response to this serious threat to the free speech and privacy rights of the anonymous users of this website, the internet civil liberties group, the [Electronic Frontier Foundation] with the support of [Harvard Law School]’s [Berkman Center for Internet & Society], sought to participate in the case as amicus curiae, in order to argue against such intrusive discovery tactics."
What follows after this - which is a quote from the Electronic Frontier Foundation- is fine. But this sentence is blantantly POV. From an NPOV perspective that sentence presumes a great deal: "serious threat to free speech and privacy rights" "against such intrusive discovery tactics". Clearly and obviously this drama-laden language needs to be made a little more objective to say the least.
The truth is this article is littered with examples like this that IMO should be addressed... but one or two things at a time.
Alex Jackl 14:23, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
First of all to Alex Jackl: thank you SO MUCH for acting so politely with regard to making your specific points above. With regard to your proposed edits, here is what I would suggest:
User Smeelgova could you explain the revert you did to my editing. I made the following edits:
I have implemented your edit suggestion , number 2 above. Yours, Smeelgova 23:46, 7 October 2006 (UTC).
Smeelgova 17:23, 8 October 2006 (UTC).
I am again going to remove the factually incorrect information, as per my original edits. I also ask that Smeelgova does not make any more changes to this section without providing Reliable sources
Interestingly User:Smeelgova has placed a counter claim on the Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/3RR. I am unclear if my initial edit counts. Anyone know? Mark1800 06:11, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
User:Smeelgova, My request is that we do not edit the section in question until we either come to a concensus or we obtain mediation on it. Could you please indicate you agreement or disagreement. Mark1800 (I'm ok with the spelling corrections, please feel free to do that at any time. I suck at spelling)
The paragraph in question.
In December 2005, Landmark Education withdrew the lawsuit with prejudice, avoiding paying legal expenses of the opposing counsel and legal discovery of trade secrets, on the grounds that a material change in caselaw regarding statements made on the Internet occurred in January 2005. Landmark Education issued a press release on the matter. The Rick Ross Institute responded.
Case presented by Mark1800
Response
In December 2005, Landmark Education withdrew the lawsuit with prejudice, on the grounds that a material change in caselaw regarding statements made on the Internet occurred in January 2005. Rick Ross' attorneys had been trying to obtain legal discovery of trade secrets prior to the case's withdrawal. The Rick Ross Institute [1] to a press release from Landmark on the issue.
Request I'm fine with what you have written, I have an opinion that it is slighty POV slanted, however I'm aware that is my opinion.
In April 2005, Landmark Education filed to dismiss its own lawsuit with prejudice on the grounds that a material change in caselaw regarding statements made on the Internet occurred in January 2005; see Donato v. Moldow, 374 N.J. Super. 475 (N.J. App. Div. 2005), which held an operator of an online bulletin board not liable for defamatory statements posted by others on his bulletin board, unless he made a "material substantive contribution" to the defamatory material. At the time of withdrawl Rick Ross' attorneys had been trying to obtain legal discovery of trade secrets, and they claimed this was the reason for the withdrawl. [2]
Per above:
I'm fine with what you have written, I have an opinion that it is slighty POV slanted, however I'm aware that is my opinion. Thank you for acknowledging your POV. I as well acknowledge that I have an opinion that it is slighty POV slanted. Thank you for also saying that you are fine with what I have written. It seems that we have reached a consensus, sigh, awesome. I personally think that as a concise section, this brief piece works where it is at the moment. Yours,
Smeelgova
03:28, 12 October 2006 (UTC).
This sections now appears to be link building to me. I think the references are quite redundant. Spacefarer 12:02, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
Landmark Education could have requested withdraw either WITH PREJUDICE or WITHOUT PREJUDICE (meaning it could be refiled). When withdrawn without prejudice, it could be refiled, and the defense would have been justified in seeking compensation, because they might have to defend again. The judge agreed that Landmark Education had brought the suit in good faith, and the last six months were an unsuccessful effort of Rick Ross to keep the case alive on grounds Landmark had not brought the case in good faith. The judge further agree that the change in internet case law (Donato versus Moldow) was a valid reason for withdrawing the case. The avoidance of discovery is the opinion of Rick Ross and his lawyers, but both Landmark and the judge are on the same side. This section needs to be better written to reflect this.
I removed this paragraph for the following reasons:
The courts aren't helping matters. For example, Landmark Education, an international training and development company that presents The Landmark Forum, dropped its lawsuit in New Jersey against Rick Ross, a self-professed "cult expert" who has built a career and reputation by quoting people's opinions on his Web site. Landmark Education terminated its lawsuit when, in an unrelated case, a New Jersey court significantly limited the kind of Internet behavior it would consider damages for. Court decisions like that make it even more difficult for companies to protect themselves against misinformation and false accusations.
Ross, who claims he's an expert on cults, religions and any organization he deems potentially harmful, should be held to a higher standard - not a lesser one. Rick Ross is a convicted felon with no degree of any kind. He says so on his own web site. His lack of professional qualifications doesn't stop Ross from freely labeling credible organizations in the personal development area "worthless" and "faked." While Ross acknowledges that Landmark Education is definitely not a cult, he nevertheless smears the company through innuendo. Ross also attacks John Gray, author of "Men are From Mars, Women are From Venus," the Mormon Church and the practice of yoga.
[1] Sm1969 06:00, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
That being said I made minor edits taking some POV spin off the article talking about Landmark's legal actions as threats and manuevers. That is very pointed language. A pro-Landmark POV person might have said "defended itself against outrageous accusations" or some such equally POV statement. Let's use neutral language... Alex Jackl 06:53, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
Landmark Education, whose Chairman Art Schreiber also acts as the organization's General Counsel, has a history of making legal threats and demands, not all of which end in courtroom litigation (for some of those, see Landmark Education litigation. And given the organization's reputation, other parties have also resorted to legalistic maneuvers when their beliefs bring them into conflict with Landmark Education.
Smeelgova objects to the inclusion of the rest of this quote. Smeelgova first stated that it was a personal attack on Rick Ross. The Wikipedia policy on personal attacks is from editor-to-editor, not article-subject to article-subject. Smeelgova then objected to it not being relevant to Landmark Education. On the contrary, I believe it is precisely on point. What is Smeelgova's latest objection? The quote follows. Sm1969 04:00, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
Ross, who claims he's an expert on cults, religions and any organization he deems potentially harmful, should be held to a higher standard - not a lesser one. Rick Ross is a convicted felon with no degree of any kind. He says so on his own web site. His lack of professional qualifications doesn't stop Ross from freely labeling credible organizations in the personal development area "worthless" and "faked." While Ross acknowledges that Landmark Education is definitely not a cult, he nevertheless smears the company through innuendo. Ross also attacks John Gray, author of "Men are From Mars, Women are From Venus," the Mormon Church and the practice of yoga.
There appears to be some sort of fork of this page at Landmark Education and the law. Someone asked to speedy it as an attack page, but I'm concerned there may be edit history/information present that needs to be retained. The page has existed in some form or another for about two weeks. -- nae' blis 20:23, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
The two pages currently appearing as Landmark Education and the law and as Landmark Education litigation first originated as a single fork from the Landmark Education article following some complaints that that article had become too long. On 21 October 2006 I set up the forked material as an article and carefully named it Landmark Education and the law in an attempt to allow it to cover both specific cases of litigation as well as non-court-case legal activities undertaken by both Landmark Education (the corporation) and other parties.
On 20 November 2006 User:Jossi renamed the article from Landmark Education and the law to Landmark Education litigation, commenting "more appropriate name for comments". As a result, this left no home for non-litigation law-oriented material as inappropriate to the new title. Accordingly on 22 November 2006 I resurrected the Landmark Education and the law article from its status as a redirection and archived/edited there such (not insubstantial) material as related to legal but non-litigated events and trends.
I have no objection to (re-)merging the two articles, so long as we do not lose relevant edits relating to the broader field of Landmark Education's interactions with legal goings-on. However, I would point out that each separate article has a substantial body of text and that each has attracted some spirited editing. If they continue a separate existence, of course, each article should link to the other.
Neither article appears to me to constitute an "attack page" -- each one details (as a matter of record) documented actions undertaken by various parties within the legal systems of the world. Attacks (such as those on Rick Ross) appear in the context of such legal maneuverings.
-- Pedant17 01:28, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
Completed the merge and copyedited the resulting article, including removal of editorializing and OR commentary, as well as NPOVng the tone as per tags on the merged article. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 03:16, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
Now that we have a merged article containing the former article Landmark Education litigation and the former article Landmark Education and the law and now that the size of our combined article has reached a size of 58 Kb and attracts warnings/suggestions concerning splitting per Wikipedia:Article size and now that the current title of the article (Landmark Education litigation) does not adequately cover the non-litigation elements in the article -- perhaps we should consider how we might best split this article again. -- Pedant17 01:58, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
The title of this article is Landmark Education Litigation. These Labor investigations do not have anything to do with litigation. Also, I question the notability of the investigations Triplejumper 13:40, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
I have removed the following line. I believe that by 'collecting' the list of sources and presenting them as a 'list of coverage', we are doing original research. Its a technicality, but still OR. If those sources had something specific to say which adds value, then they SHOULD be included with proper citations. But simply listing a block of sources that covered it, is original research unless a secondary source has done this and we can 'cite' them as saying it first.
The newly re-filed court case, and subsequent transfer to Oklahoma City received coverage in the Tulsa World,
[2] on KSWO News, [3] in the Bartlesville Examiner Enterprise, [4] as well as on KFDA News in Amarillo, Texas [5] and on KTEN News in Ada, Oklahoma [6].
Peace. Lsi john 14:55, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
Most recent version is promoting a law firm that is a litigant in the article. Louislouislewee 15:13, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
I have run into formatting issues at the bottom of the article. I was unable to add information without sections becoming linked together even with the ==Headings== added. The formatting is not behaving normally. At the moment, I have lost the section about Rick Ross. Triplejumper 22:35, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
Anyone up for tackling this? Source citation is easy. Nov 23, 2007, article in The Washington Times, I believe, available online. Arcana imperii Ascendo tuum ( talk) 00:31, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
Is there any real justification for including this article? Surely it would only be called for if there were an exceptionally large amount of litigation involving this company? Does anyone suggest that sixteen cases in sixteen years for a company with a million customers is even worthy of mention, much less an entire article? DaveApter ( talk) 17:09, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
Why and how did this happen, what was the rationale? -- Pax Arcane 04:19, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
I removed what seems to be a silly sentence from the lead: "Relatively few (if any) have taken place in Turkmenistan or Haiti." I cannot imagine why this should be in the article. Please discuss here and give reasons and a source if you want to reinstate. Timb66 ( talk) 12:02, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
I removed the Skolnik stuff because it is an advert - they are lawyers on one side of the dispute (against) with Landmark and have posted this page. They, if referenced at all, should CERTAINLY not be in the opening paragraphs. This is frankly a questionable article to begin with in terms of notability.
21st Century Democrats is not a litigation that directly involves the company at all- it is merley mentinoe din an unrleated suit. COme on! .
Alex Jackl ( talk) 16:16, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
A Wikipedian suggested on 2008-03-21 that "21st Century Democrats is not a litigation that directly involves the company at all- it is merley mentinoe din an unrleated suit."[sic] This assertion appears to relate to the source: McElhatton, Jim. "Democratic PAC faces lawsuit for employee 'religious events'", in The Washington Times, 2007-11-27, pp. Nation/Politics (retrieved 2008-03-23. That article makes it clear that the activities and "influences" (if not the "company") of Landmark Education stand at the heart of the legal case involving the 21st Century Democrats organization and its former employees. Allegations about the nature and religiosity of Landmark Education courses figure prominently in the Washington Times summary of the case. That makes this subject eminently suitable for inclusion in an article devoted to Landmark Education 'as a plaintiff, as a defendant, or as a subject "relevant" to other lawsuits' (to quote from our lead sentence. -- Pedant17 ( talk) 01:05, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
The Wikipedia lead-section guideline encourages sourced summary in the lead: "The lead should ... summarize the most important points, explain why the subject is interesting or notable, and briefly describe its notable controversies, if ... any. ... It should contain up to four paragraphs, should be carefully sourced as appropriate, ..."
Accordingly, I propose copying relevant summarized summary-information from the "Legal archive and summary" section into the lead.
-- Pedant17 ( talk) 01:46, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
--- I do not think the Skolnik refence is appropriate for the lead of this article. It violates WP:Lead to leave it there. Triplejumper ( talk) 17:51, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
Who ever put the growing generations information into the article was violating WP:NPOV. The section cited a press release by Landmark Education saying 'That references and acknowledges the existence of the suit'. There seems to be a lot more to that press release than that one statement. Having now read both the article from the Village Voice the press-release from Landmark Education- I think the way this has been included is definitely in violation of WP:NPOV. I took it out. Including that case when there are pretty oblique connections to Landmark Education {The actual point of the press release I believe), it just seems a little low brow to include it in the article. The whole case just seems frivolous and what I especially don't get about it is if the guy who has brought the law suit is so concerned about his "Christian Beliefs", what was he doing working for an outfit that helps gay and lesbian couples have biological children? I just don't think it is relevant to this article. Triplejumper ( talk) 18:14, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
At 1933 hours on 2008-06-02 a Wikipedian removed the template: {{ landmarkForum}} from this article, adding the edit-summary: "removed inappropriate template box". Failing explication of the specific way(s) in which this template appears inappropriate, I propose restoring the template, which, appropriately enough, includes a link to the current article on "Landmark Education litigation" (as well as links to other relevant and related background material). -- Pedant17 ( talk) 02:14, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
It should be out of the articles because Werner Erhard is not involved in Landmark Education and is not involved in legal issues. Spacefarer ( talk) 19:53, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
On 2008-06-11 at 2014 hours a Wikipedian removed the following navigation-aid from the article: This article discusses litigation involving Landmark Education. For legal matters and legal views involving Landmark Education but less directly linked to litigation, see Landmark Education and the law. and commented in the Edit-summary: "There is already a link to the POV fork "Landmark Education and the Law" in the see also section it definitely doesn't belong in the lead here." -- The removed text did not form part of the lead, but rather represented an article-specific navigation/disambiguation template, marked off from the lead by appearing in italics and separated from the lead by a horizontal rule or line. It appears inappropriate to criticize it as part of the lead. -- To refer to the Wikipedia article [[[Landmark Education and the law]] as a "POV fork" does not do justice to that article, which once formed the repository for the material subsequently renamed as our current article "Landmark Education litigation" (see the "History" page for "Landmark Education and the law".-- Any discussion as to whether the article Landmark Education and the law (an ancestor page of our current article) lacks in some way a neutral point of view should take place in the Talk-page of that article, not in the edit-summary fields of our current article. -- When articles get spun off, Wikipedia guidelines strongly encourage linking and summarizing: see Wikipedia:Content forking. Failing merging of these two articles, let's at least encourage readers to note the existence of the extra not-unrelated material and readily click to it if desired. -- Pedant17 ( talk) 02:50, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
Can anyone explain what is the justification in having this article included in an encyclopedia? This site is supposed to be dealing in facts, not unsupported and discredited snippets of opinion.
The opening paragraph of the introductions states: "Since its adoption of approximately its current structure in 1991, Landmark Education has become involved in a variety of legal proceedings"
Well, yes - the anti-landmark polemicists have managed to dredge up two cases where attempts have been made to sue Landmark Education (in neither of which was a clear judgement against Landmark forthcoming), two where they are mentioned tangentially in disputes between other parties, and 13 where Landmark either sued or threatened to sue for libel or defamation (in the majority of which, the defendant withdrew rather than substantiated their original allegations).
Does anyone seriously suggest that this amount of legal activity in connection with a company that has had well over a million customers over a 17 year period is even noteworthy, much less deserving of an entire article? DaveApter ( talk) 15:20, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
In reply to User:Triplejumper's note dated 14:40, 19 August 2008 (UTC): Thank you for not removing the Skolnik and Norwick summary from the article. It might help to restore that summary to the article. -- Within WP:LEAD, the WP:LEADCITE guideline encourages appropriate use of quotation and citation, stating: "The lead must conform to verifiability and other policies. The verifiability policy advises that material that is challenged or likely to be challenged, and quotations, should be cited. Because the lead will usually repeat information also in the body, editors should balance the desire to avoid redundant citations in the lead with the desire to aid readers in locating sources for challengeable material. Leads are usually written at a greater level of generality than the body, and information in the lead section of non-controversial subjects is less likely to be challenged and less likely to require a source; there is not, however, an exception to citation requirements specific to leads. The necessity for citations in a lead should be determined on a case-by-case basis by editorial consensus. Complex, current, or controversial subjects may require many citations; others, few or none. Contentious material about living persons must be cited every time, regardless of the level of generality." -- Given that the Skolnik and Norwick summary relates to potentially controversial material and to some living persons, it seems appropriate that we quote and reference such balancing/NPOVizing material -- which provides much-needed summary -- with care and thoroughness. In the circumstances, I propose to restore the Skolnik/Norwick summary to the lead: I believe I have addressed on this Talk-page all outstanding objections to so doing. Any specific objections? -- Pedant17 ( talk) 01:12, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
On 2008-08-23 at 0217 hours a Wikipedian changed the text: "The Swiss subsidiary, Landmark Education AG,[...] instituted formal legal proceedings [...] demanding that infoSekta cease distributing information about Landmark Education" so that it read: "The Swiss subsidiary, Landmark Education AG,[...] instituted formal legal proceedings [...] demanding that infoSekta cease distributing information about the company". This change introduces ambiguity: it leaves the reader unclear whether "the company" refers to Landmark Education Corporation or to Landmark Education AG. (Note that the relevant source makes specific mention of judicial representations on behalf of of two groups: "Ein Zürcher Anwalt meldete sich im Namen der amerikanischen Zentrale und der schweizerischen Tochterfirma." [A lawyer from Zurich represented the American Head Office and the Swiss subsidiary.] (Sträuli, Dieter (1997). "Landmark vs. infoSekta: Geschichte eines Prozesses [Landmark vs infoSekta: Account of a Trial]". infoSekta-Tätigkeitsbericht 1997 [infoSekta-Activity-report 1997] (in German). pp. 16–20. Retrieved 2008-10-02.) Futhermore, the Swiss source makes it clear that the material distributed by infoSekta related not so much to any company as to the content and nature of Landmark Education's seminars and activities. Substituting "the company" for "Landmark Education" therefore distorts the description of the case. Accordingly, I propose that we substitute a formulation such as "... cease distributing information about Landmark Education's course-contents and methods". -- Pedant17 ( talk) 00:42, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
On
2009-08-23
2008-08-23 at 0218 hours a Wikipedian changed the the text "The [Swiss] magazine [FACTS] allegedly later retracted this statement after Landmark Education took legal action" to read "The [Swiss] magazine [FACTS] later retracted this statement after Landmark Education took legal action" and noted in the edit-summary: "remove weasel wording; ref is there". The footnote reference for the alleged retraction links to
http://www.infosekta.ch/is5/gruppen/lm_straeuli1998.html -- which does not mention FACTS magazine. That leaves us with an unsupported assertion of a retraction "after Landmark Education took legal action". Until such time as we have good documentary evidence of the retraction (and of the alleged legal action) from a reliable and independent source, we can as editors qualify the claim by labelling it "alleged". Alternatively, if we can track down some account of the alleged legal action, we can attribute any specific statements made on the matter to their proper source. --
Pedant17 (
talk)
00:42, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
On 2008-08-23 at 0220 hours a Wikipedian altered the section on the suing of Margaret Singer, changing the words: "the text did not make it entirely clear whether she labeled Landmark Education as a cult or not" to read: "the text did not make it entirely clear whether she labeled the organization as a cult or not". Such a change appears to misrepresent Margaret Singer's opposition -- not to the mere "organization", but to the whole complex of Landmark Education, its actions, methods and effects. Note that her carefully-worded statement quoted later in the same paragraph of the article refers not to any organisation. but to "Landmark" and to "The Landmark Forum". And weigh up the note in the introduction to the second printing of Singer and Lalich's book, Cults in our Midst: "In fact, and with much regret, this edition of the book contains a rather glaring omission in my historical account of a certain movement. Despite the profound impact of one particular person and his organization on the spread of certain types of training, I have not mentioned this well-known leader and his international organization. I have taken this step due to the pendancy of a meritless lawsuit against me and Jana Lalich arising from the publication of the hard-cover edition of this book... For these reasons, and because I want to keep on helping ex-members of cults understand what happened to them and how to overcome some of the long-lasting damage cult behavior has brought into their lives, I have elected to write generically of cults, so that my energies can continue to be directed to studying cults and helping cult victims. ..." (page XXIV of Margaret Singer and Janja Lalich: Cults in our midst, first paperback edition, San Francisco: Jossey-Bass, 1996 ISBN 0-7879-0266-7 ) -- Note the broader context: the "movement", "training", the "leader" and the "victims". -- Moreover, the lawsuit itself, as brought by Landmark Education against Singer and Lalich, stresses that it objects not merely to representation of Landmark Education (the organization), but also to the representation of "the Landmark Forum program" -- see pages 5 and 6 of the complaint in the Supreme Court of the State of New York, dated February 13 1996, reproduced online as part of the Landmark Education Litigation Archive. The complaint goes on to highlight issues of workplace activities and Large Group Awareness Trainings and thought reform and brainwashing and "coercive psychological influence" and totalism -- all in relation to the activities (rather than the organization) of Landmark Education. -- The lawsuit issues between Singer and Landmark Education involved a lot more than a mere "organization". Our encyclopedia account should reflect this by referring to "Landmark Education" -- as a meme-package -- in this context, rather than as a mere "organization". -- Pedant17 ( talk) 02:24, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
On 2008-09-03 at 1419 and 1421 hours a Wikipedian removed passages from the article (see diff which deprived a sententence of a main clause and left a footnote dangling. I propose that we we remedy the situation by changing the original sentence to read:
In 1999 Art Schreiber of Landmark Education commented on the case in terms of brainwashing as a medical matter involving Lell as a perceived patient:
Mr. Lell was not "brainwashed". As the record at the Hearing indicated, following completion of The Landmark Forum Mr. Lell did not see a doctor; was not hospitalized; did not seek or obtain medication; and was not diagnosed by a medical professional as being brainwashed or having any mental problem. [7]
-- Pedant17 ( talk) 00:24, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
On September 3, 2008 at 1424 hours a Wikipedian altered the article by "balancing" a non-sourced simplified over-specific claim ("with infoSekta agreeing not to call Landmark Education a cult") with a vagueness ("some matters") and noting in the edit-summary "Balanced this section a little". As the edit unbalanced and oversimplified the section, I propose reducing the comment and relying on the quote provided to convey the information: "In the matter of content we can happily assert that the substantive points of infoSekta's work stand. As previously, we can claim that Landmark shows cultic traits, so long as we emphasize at the same time that we wish to avoid a facile labeling as a cult (Sekte). (Such a labeling we would wish to avoid on principle and in any case.) As before, we can continue to express doubts as to the professionalism and the seriousness of Landmark's course-offerings (the agreement expressly states this). And finally, when asked about the matter, we can advise against attending [Landmark] courses." -- Pedant17 ( talk) 01:39, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
On September 3, 2008 at 1428 a Wikipedian
edited the article and added the edit-summary "Panorama Magazine (The Netherlands): Removed a link to a non-reliable opinion web piece that has no place in an article on legal matters an article". The edit had the effect of removing an alternative report on the outcome of a court case in the Netherlands, leaving only the reference sourced from Landmark Education (an interested party), which concentrates only on part of the case. Since different points of view evidently exist as to the outcome, it seems appropriate for
verification to reference the full transcript of the court judgment, (van Maanen, C.J.J. (1999-05-04).
"Vonnis Rechtbank Haarlem 4 mei 1999: Integrale tekst van het vonnis (zaaknr: 54.917/KG ZA 99-176) in Kort Geding van de Arrondissementsrechtbank te Haarlem d.d. 4 mei 1999" (in Dutch). Harlem District Law Bench. Retrieved 2009-01-12. {{
cite web}}
: Cite has empty unknown parameters: |month=
and |coauthors=
(
help)
which makes it clear that although Landmark Education won a few points on matters of verbal technicalities relating to definitions and the exact role of Jack Rosenberg/
Werner Erhard (sections 3,4 and 3.10 and 3.11 of the judgment), the judge identified misquotations by Landmark Education of the Panorama article ( sections 3.13 and 3.14 of the judgement), dismissed Landmark Education's case for a published correction (rectificatie) of the Panorama article (section 3.20 of the judgement), upheld the right of freedom of expression of opinion (de vrijheid van meningsuiting, section 3.22 of the judgment), rejected demands (section 2.2 of the judgment) for Panorama's owners to pay damages, and ordered Landmark Education to pay the costs of the case (section 4.2 of the judgment). (For reference, Panorama originally published the article in dispute as
"Nederland Sektenland". Panorama (in Dutch). VNU. January 1999. pp. 37–52. Retrieved 2009-01-12. {{
cite news}}
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help); Unknown parameter |curly=
ignored (
help)) --
Pedant17 (
talk)
02:14, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
A checkuser case resulted in "confirm" on several users as sockpuppets of each other, that edited articles on closely related topics including Landmark Education, Werner Erhard, Landmark Education litigation, Scientology and Werner Erhard, Erhard Seminars Training, and Werner Erhard and Associates, among others. As a result, several of these users and sockpuppets of each other have been blocked. The checkuser case page is here: Wikipedia:Requests for checkuser/Case/Eastbayway. Cirt ( talk) 00:59, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
This section doesn't describe any litigation. Should we move it to the Landmark and the law page? Eaglebreath ( talk) 22:53, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
I'm wondering whether this article could do with general overhaul? It seems to me to be written from a perspective that is far from a neutral point of view. DaveApter ( talk) 10:40, 30 April 2011 (UTC)
The article appears to be a coatrack to air a string of negative allegations about Landmark, most of which have not been substantiated in the ensuing legal proceedings, thus violating the undue weight policies.
Furthermore several of the sources which are quoted at length do not meet Wikipedia's criteria for reliability, being self-published websites belonging to individuals who are party to the disputes being described here. I really would have thought that the amount of legal activity did not represent an adequate justification for its own article at all, in the context of a corporation that had been trading for 20 years and served well over a million customers. But if it is to continue, it should be condensed and given a more evenly balanced tone, and the unreliable sources excised. DaveApter ( talk) 16:39, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
There's a section of this article that seems superfluous, the section that discusses lawsuits that Landmark wasn't even a party to, both of which were dismissed without merit. Why are these even in here? Dismissed suits that mention Landmark without directly involving it seem outside the scope of this article. Nwlaw63 ( talk) 00:13, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
I pruned this article some, given the requirements that we use reliable secondary sources and all that jazz. My edit was reverted here, by the topic-banned Zambelo, but I feel I should address their revert and the rather inaccurate edit summary, "please discuss your vast and POV changes before you implement them". First of all, I'm not going to discuss every single edit I make first, and given their topic ban I could hardly have discussed it with them. Imagine if we had to discuss every single edit. Second, there is nothing "vast" about these changes IF we consider that, well, material needs to have adequate secondary sourcing. I made my changes in fourteen separate edits, each one accompanied by a summary explaining the reason for the edit. I challenge anyone who wishes to challenge them to prove that the sourcing was indeed adequate--but worse, that sourcing will have to be prove to be adequate, since it was incredibly deficient. Third, that my edits were "POV" is, in my book, a personal attack, and I deny having a POV on Landmark or any other NRM. But that's hardly the point for this article: WP:RS is, plain and simple. Drmies ( talk) 19:06, 14 October 2014 (UTC)
Mr. Lell was not "brainwashed". As the record at the Hearing indicated, following completion of The Landmark Forum Mr. Lell did not see a doctor; was not hospitalized; did not seek or obtain medication; and was not diagnosed by a medical professional as being brainwashed or having any mental problem.
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