![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
![]() | The subject of this article is controversial and content may be in dispute. When updating the article, be bold, but not reckless. Feel free to try to improve the article, but don't take it personally if your changes are reversed; instead, come here to the talk page to discuss them. Content must be written from a neutral point of view. Include citations when adding content and consider tagging or removing unsourced information. |
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Landmark Worldwide/Archive 6 page. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | Please stay calm and civil while commenting or presenting evidence, and do not make personal attacks. Be patient when approaching solutions to any issues. If consensus is not reached, other solutions exist to draw attention and ensure that more editors mediate or comment on the dispute. |
Please start new discussion topics at the bottom of the talk page per
Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines. Thanks!
Previous discussions have been archived:
Once again this talk page has got over-long, so I have archived it. Looking through the archived pages, it’s pretty clear that the discussion has gone round in circles with the same points being made over and over again, and more time being spent on re-iterating editors’ own viewpoints than seriously working towards a consensus on the structure of the article.
At present the article is a total mess, as a result of the POV-pushing and edit-warring over the last seven months. It is also much longer than it should be.
My request is that we work together to establish a consensus on this page regarding a desirable structure for the article, and then find acceptable references to build the page in that form.
I propose that an acceptable encyclopedia article on Landmark Education would provide readers with informative content regarding:
Does anyone disagree with this as a satisfactory ‘big-picture’ overview of what the article should deal with? (Please start the discussion in a new section below to preserve the flow of this overview paragraph – thanks).
My suggestions for how these areas could be dealt with are:
This section of the article should address the following questions:
(again - please discuss below).
This section as it stands is way over-large and violates the WP:NPOV policy by giving undue weight to minority views, and by reporting opinions as though they were facts.
A “controversy” by its nature is a matter of conflicting opinions.
What are the disputed matters? I’d say they are:
The concerns over the Assisting Programs would be quite properly discussed under the latter two headings.
The fact that some commentators have applied adjectives such as “cult” and “brainwashing” is not in itself informative, unless we know what they mean by the words, and what evidence they draw on to justify the description. It seems to me that the majority of those expressing critical opinions on Landmark Education actually know very little about it, and quite disproportionate weight is given to uninformed speculation and hearsay.
I have replaced the compliant tag, since the article certainly hasn’t improved since Jossi placed it there; in fact it’s deteriorated substantially. DaveApter 11:29, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
I don't have any immediate edits but agree that this is a good overall high-level structure. Alex Jackl 05:06, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
I have re-inserted the Landmark site references. See the bottom of TALK Archive Page 5 for the preceding conversation. This is an article about a "for-profit" organization. Linkd to that organization on an article abut it are 100% appropriate. There are only SEVEN links to a Landmark Education Site in the reference section. It is the best and most direct primary source of information about the company. I direct you to other major Wikipedia articles on Harvard University and IBM and Brown University. Please do not claim an interest in reducing the amount of links since the article is soaked in negative POV links. Please go to work on reducing them if that is an issue. (tongue only partially in cheek) Alex Jackl 16:42, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
Smee invited me to comment since I've been following some of the activity here. For the time being, I recommend both of you stop editing the article. Just leave it as it is for the time being. There is a major conflict of interest WP:COI problem to overcome since Alex Jackl appears to be involved in the situation. I won't address the content of the article itself, but in terms of the external links I propose a few steps that might help to resolve the dispute. Alex Jackl feels like the amount of links is similar to other corporate articles - so I invite him to link to some examples. At the same time, just because other articles do it doesn't mean it is appropriate. I spend much of my time editing inappropriate links added to articles. If there are separate websites to link to, it might be useful, but it is rather pointless to link to several pages under a single domain. I invite Alex Jackl to comment on why these links should be included - beyond the fact that some other articles have lots of links as well. Nposs 21:59, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
I am saying these things to ask you to be more civil and polite- and not to restrain from saying what you believe. Don't make up stories about why people do what they do- you don't know. Second, if you find me a document from the US Department of Labor that is a report on an investigation that SAYS that people who volunteer for Landmark are owed back labor I will eat my hat and concede this whole thing. We both know that it is a safe bet on my part. It is accusatory exchanges like this that make this such a hard article to work on.
Please notice that I do not asccuse you of WP:COI although I could make a case that you are affiliated with or employed by organizations with an axe to grind against Landmark. I have never brought that up because of the policy of being civil and always assuming good faith in these engagements- and because you have not disclosed that. In my world you have more of a POV bias than I do- which is saying a lot! I am what I am and my POV is very clear. However, I am also a committed Wikipedia editor with a deep interest in balanced articles. Let's stick to the facts and not play the game this way. Thanks! Alex Jackl 16:29, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
Although I was originally opposed I think this converstaion is now a distriction from the work of this page to guide the content of the Landamrk Education article. I now support User:DaveApter's intention to archive this conversation. Alex Jackl 16:56, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
I hate to make sensitive changes without comment. I was just about done writing all this up right after making those changes to the External Links section ... and then my laptop battery died. Sorry if I came across as a driveby shooter. Here's what I was about to post:
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
![]() | The subject of this article is controversial and content may be in dispute. When updating the article, be bold, but not reckless. Feel free to try to improve the article, but don't take it personally if your changes are reversed; instead, come here to the talk page to discuss them. Content must be written from a neutral point of view. Include citations when adding content and consider tagging or removing unsourced information. |
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Landmark Worldwide/Archive 6 page. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | Please stay calm and civil while commenting or presenting evidence, and do not make personal attacks. Be patient when approaching solutions to any issues. If consensus is not reached, other solutions exist to draw attention and ensure that more editors mediate or comment on the dispute. |
Please start new discussion topics at the bottom of the talk page per
Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines. Thanks!
Previous discussions have been archived:
Once again this talk page has got over-long, so I have archived it. Looking through the archived pages, it’s pretty clear that the discussion has gone round in circles with the same points being made over and over again, and more time being spent on re-iterating editors’ own viewpoints than seriously working towards a consensus on the structure of the article.
At present the article is a total mess, as a result of the POV-pushing and edit-warring over the last seven months. It is also much longer than it should be.
My request is that we work together to establish a consensus on this page regarding a desirable structure for the article, and then find acceptable references to build the page in that form.
I propose that an acceptable encyclopedia article on Landmark Education would provide readers with informative content regarding:
Does anyone disagree with this as a satisfactory ‘big-picture’ overview of what the article should deal with? (Please start the discussion in a new section below to preserve the flow of this overview paragraph – thanks).
My suggestions for how these areas could be dealt with are:
This section of the article should address the following questions:
(again - please discuss below).
This section as it stands is way over-large and violates the WP:NPOV policy by giving undue weight to minority views, and by reporting opinions as though they were facts.
A “controversy” by its nature is a matter of conflicting opinions.
What are the disputed matters? I’d say they are:
The concerns over the Assisting Programs would be quite properly discussed under the latter two headings.
The fact that some commentators have applied adjectives such as “cult” and “brainwashing” is not in itself informative, unless we know what they mean by the words, and what evidence they draw on to justify the description. It seems to me that the majority of those expressing critical opinions on Landmark Education actually know very little about it, and quite disproportionate weight is given to uninformed speculation and hearsay.
I have replaced the compliant tag, since the article certainly hasn’t improved since Jossi placed it there; in fact it’s deteriorated substantially. DaveApter 11:29, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
I don't have any immediate edits but agree that this is a good overall high-level structure. Alex Jackl 05:06, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
I have re-inserted the Landmark site references. See the bottom of TALK Archive Page 5 for the preceding conversation. This is an article about a "for-profit" organization. Linkd to that organization on an article abut it are 100% appropriate. There are only SEVEN links to a Landmark Education Site in the reference section. It is the best and most direct primary source of information about the company. I direct you to other major Wikipedia articles on Harvard University and IBM and Brown University. Please do not claim an interest in reducing the amount of links since the article is soaked in negative POV links. Please go to work on reducing them if that is an issue. (tongue only partially in cheek) Alex Jackl 16:42, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
Smee invited me to comment since I've been following some of the activity here. For the time being, I recommend both of you stop editing the article. Just leave it as it is for the time being. There is a major conflict of interest WP:COI problem to overcome since Alex Jackl appears to be involved in the situation. I won't address the content of the article itself, but in terms of the external links I propose a few steps that might help to resolve the dispute. Alex Jackl feels like the amount of links is similar to other corporate articles - so I invite him to link to some examples. At the same time, just because other articles do it doesn't mean it is appropriate. I spend much of my time editing inappropriate links added to articles. If there are separate websites to link to, it might be useful, but it is rather pointless to link to several pages under a single domain. I invite Alex Jackl to comment on why these links should be included - beyond the fact that some other articles have lots of links as well. Nposs 21:59, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
I am saying these things to ask you to be more civil and polite- and not to restrain from saying what you believe. Don't make up stories about why people do what they do- you don't know. Second, if you find me a document from the US Department of Labor that is a report on an investigation that SAYS that people who volunteer for Landmark are owed back labor I will eat my hat and concede this whole thing. We both know that it is a safe bet on my part. It is accusatory exchanges like this that make this such a hard article to work on.
Please notice that I do not asccuse you of WP:COI although I could make a case that you are affiliated with or employed by organizations with an axe to grind against Landmark. I have never brought that up because of the policy of being civil and always assuming good faith in these engagements- and because you have not disclosed that. In my world you have more of a POV bias than I do- which is saying a lot! I am what I am and my POV is very clear. However, I am also a committed Wikipedia editor with a deep interest in balanced articles. Let's stick to the facts and not play the game this way. Thanks! Alex Jackl 16:29, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
Although I was originally opposed I think this converstaion is now a distriction from the work of this page to guide the content of the Landamrk Education article. I now support User:DaveApter's intention to archive this conversation. Alex Jackl 16:56, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
I hate to make sensitive changes without comment. I was just about done writing all this up right after making those changes to the External Links section ... and then my laptop battery died. Sorry if I came across as a driveby shooter. Here's what I was about to post: