Landkreuzer P. 1000 Ratte has been listed as one of the
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please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can
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This article was nominated for deletion on 19 May 2007. The result of the discussion was keep. |
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In his book, "My Tank is Fight", Zack Parsons has devoted an entire chapter on this über-tank. Hugo Dufort 06:22, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
The book includes a concept drawing for what it'd look like: —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Havermayer ( talk • contribs) 05:56, 1 January 2007 (UTC).
I've reverted the incorrect claim that this is a hoax originated by Parsons. It may still be a hoax, but if so, it's a much older one.
1. I contributed the initial revision of this article in August 2004. I can't tell the exact date now because the article failed AFD in June 2006 and was deleted (along with its revision history) before being recreated in August 2006 after Parsons book was released. (This recreated version remains substantially similar to my original text, which is perfectly fine, but the record of the original contributors has been lost, which is mildly irritating as well as technically a GFDL violation.)
2. I created the article by following a red link on the Panzer_VIII_Maus page, using as source material the page on actungpanzer.com and the page on panzerschreck.de. I don't remember finding any other sources on Google at that time. Neither of those pages appear to have anything to do with Parsons.
3. In June 2006 the article was nominated for deletion by User:TomTheHand for failing WP:V. TomTheHand stated that he knew about the tank from internet tank forums for years, but when trying to track down a proper source found just how sketchy the available info was. The nominator did a remarkable amount of work before and during the AFD to save the article, including two trips to a university library. During the AFD Parsons then-upcoming book was mentioned only briefly as it seemed to be derived from the existing material and was not an acceptable source in any case. There was a rumour of a German language source but nobody was able to track down a copy. The achtungpanzer webmaster, George Parada, turned out to be a fairly reputable amateur historian and the author of at least one published picture book of "crazy stuff the Nazis nearly built", but did not reply to the nominators email asking about his source for the Ratte material. In spite of my initial bias toward saving the article, I was forced to agree with TomTheHand that the article did not meet the WP:V standard and voted for deletion.
4. The article was deleted, but was later (almost immediately) recreated by someone else. This was almost certainly an innocent mistake since all the above useful information, history, and consensus was buried when the article was deleted (although I see the AFD disussion is still available, if you know exactly where to look, at Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/P-1000). This has caused me to rethink the wisdom of the slash-and-burn salt-the-earth deletion policy, especially as it pertains to articles that will inevitably be recreated. Prominently tagging the article as questionable may have worked out better in the long run. (Protecting it from recreation may have worked as well, at the cost of evoking confusion and outrage in users blocked from recreating it but without being told why.)
-- Saucepan 18:51, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
This vehicle has an estimated road speed of 40 kph. Where is there a road big enough to handle it? I'm also curious to know how they planned on deploying it overseas, it's not like it'll fit on any of the ships then in use. The Nazis would have also needed to design a ship like one of the Mighty Servants to move it anywhere.
Then comes the question, how and where was this beast supposed to be serviced? Ships have dry docks, tanks use big garages, and a tank this huge will sooner or later need it's engines replaced. Anynobody 02:01, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
I looked through most of my books, and was able to come up with two books which reference period documents: Special-Panzerfahrzeuge des deutschen Heeres by Walther Spielberger and Waffen und Geheimwaffen des deutschen Heeres 1933-1945 (vol. 2) by Fritz Hahn. The information they give is limited (and in German), but it's the best I can find. I recently wrote an article on the P 1000 based on these books, but I'm unsure whether I'd be allowed to link to this article and use it myself as an English source under the WP:SOAP and WP:COI rules. Christian Ankerstjerne ( talk) 14:17, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
I find it incredible that the article doesn't even mention the possibility that the P1000 is a hoax. I will make an appropriate ammendment to the introduction. Getztashida ( talk) 15:11, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
I'm telling you what the rules for inclusion are. "Personal proof" isn't relevant to wikipedia - WP:RS are. You can't include claims that it is a hoax if it's unsubstantiated. It is mentioned in the remaining references, some of which are poor (and I recently removed an unusable one). Spielberger, however, is respected. That is not to suggest the Ratte was anything but ridiculous. It seems to have been rejected very early in the planning stages, but there was at least a notion for the design at the time. I believe Jentz also mentions it one of his books, although I don't have that one (JENTZ, Thomas L. & DOYLE, Hilary L. Panzer Tracts No. 20-1 - Paper Panzers).
RE: the hoax theories: here's a recent source that might be useful (in French). Trucks & Tanks magazine, issue 32. Cover story is "Landkreuzer P.1000, le projet secret d'Hitler". It's not a scholarly magazine, but it sure as heck ain't sensationalist. That same issue features a dissection of Arab-Israeli tank warfare written by a French general which is truly illuminating. http://www.trucks-tanks.com/trucks-tanks32.php 93.92.153.10 ( talk) 12:36, 17 July 2015 (UTC)
This article needs a picture, either official blueprint or a reimagination by an artist, to clearly sample the proportions of the landkreuzer.
I have removed the following source. Adolf: Webster's Quotations, Facts and Phrases By Inc Icon Group International ISBN 9780546657081. It contains information taken from Wikipedia (see page ii) and the Ratte section is marked as such, with [WP]. google book view ( Hohum @) 23:52, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
Despite persistent rumors to the contrary, there is no evidence that a turret was ever constructed. I removed a reference to an article that didn't cite any sources. The article's illustration furthermore showed a single-barrel turret in Norway, as opposed to the proposed dual-barrel turret of the Ratte. Likewise, I removed all references to a turret being build at all, in The Netherlands, Norway or elsewhere. The text was speculative, and looked liked it had been appended each time someone new wanted to write about his version of the myth. This gave the text a very staccato appearence. The burden of evidence rest with those who claims a turret was made, and such evidence should be verifiable. Specific claims should be removed on sight, unless backed up by verifiable sources. It might, however, be reasonable to add a short text, along the lines of 'There are several accounts of a Ratte turret being build. Such accounts are usually either too vague to be verified, or refer to actual turrets that are known to come from scrapped Kriegsmarine battleships.' Christian Ankerstjerne ( talk) 22:52, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
Actually, two Gneisenau turrets were installed in naval forts in Norway. B turret was installed in Fjell Fort in Sotra near Bergen, while C turret is in Austrått Fort in Ørlandet which I visited two weeks ago (the A turret was dismantled and its guns placed in Hoek van Holland near Rotterdam). These are original triple 28cm turrets that were removed from the Gneisenau in spring 1942 after it was partially wrecked by bombers in Kiel on 26th and 27th February. While there was plans to upgrade the class to dual 380 mm turrets, this never materialized. Clearly then the statement "its primary weapons would have been two 280 mm guns mounted in the same type of gun turret used in Gneisenau class warships" is in error.
Now, if someone possibly build a dual turret using the same guns as in Gneisenau I don't know. However, if someone decided to ship this to Norway we would surely have heard of it. The installation of B turret needed the slave labour of 1600 eastern European prisoners of war, while C turret required 3-400 Serb POWs, ferries from the Danish Railroads, a specially constructed harbour and over a year of frantic activity which affected the local population in several ways (like getting their windows blown in during test firings). Had a third turret been installed somewhere we would have found it by now. Geira
I sorted the comments a bit. Christian Ankerstjerne ( talk) 22:52, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
The lede states that the Maus is the second largest tank ever built. However, I could not find mention of any heavier tank...?!? -- DevSolar ( talk) 13:13, 17 July 2012 (UTC)
G'day, I have been learning a lot of this tank and frankly quite been interested in it. I've given sources based on other statements given on several other language wiki's, but this has also given some more sources that may provide usefulness. Infact I am surprised that this much coverage can be given for a tank that wasn't even built and super sacred.
I did snatch
this up and it's also from one of the sources provided. This makes things very easy to source now. But, can anyone access the sources given in the Russian version of this page? I would like to see what content can be found there.
Burklemore1 (
talk)
12:33, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
GA toolbox |
---|
Reviewing |
Reviewer: Tomandjerry211 ( talk · contribs) 22:48, 25 May 2015 (UTC)
Give me a little bit of time to go over it completely. Thanks, Tomandjerry211 ( Let's have a chat) 22:48, 25 May 2015 (UTC)
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| |
1b. it complies with the Manual of Style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation. |
| |
2. Verifiable with no original research: | ||
2a. it contains a list of all references (sources of information), presented in accordance with the layout style guideline. | ||
2b. reliable sources are cited inline. All content that could reasonably be challenged, except for plot summaries and that which summarizes cited content elsewhere in the article, must be cited no later than the end of the paragraph (or line if the content is not in prose). | ||
2c. it contains no original research. | ||
3. Broad in its coverage: | ||
3a. it addresses the main aspects of the topic. | ||
3b. it stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style). | ||
4. Neutral: it represents viewpoints fairly and without editorial bias, giving due weight to each. | ||
5. Stable: it does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute. | ||
6. Illustrated, if possible, by media such as images, video, or audio: | ||
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Thanks for the review, I'll get onto these now. Burklemore1 ( talk) 05:10, 26 May 2015 (UTC)
Herr Gruber, to avoid an edit war, let's have a civil discussion, shall we? While I see where you are coming from, I highly disapprove of removing text that provides a comprehensive overview of the article that can be simply altered, rather than being deleted. Did you not think of that? Burklemore1 ( talk) 04:51, 10 October 2015 (UTC)
So, I get it that the P1000 is the internet's favourite "Those Wacky Nazis" thing, but does not anyone think it might be a good idea to actually admit that some historians think the whole thing is a hoax? No one? Let's be honest, what we know is that there was a request for a feasibility study - that's incontrovertible, it's in the archives - and there's well authenticated photograph of a model of a super-heavy tank that might be the legendary 1000 ton tank proposal, but it looks nothing like the picture of the "P1000 Ratte" that's taken over the popular imagination. The rest of the history and technical content here is all speculation. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A00:23A8:400E:E501:60FE:9DD9:3CA6:2295 ( talk) 15:45, 30 August 2019 (UTC)
"In the case of the German Army, the evident burdens on the bureaus could have only worsened had they attempted to build, let alone operate, the more fantastic and apocryphal concept designs that supposedly floated through the increasingly byzantine channels of their tank procurement. These fantasies include the projects called Ratte and Monster in the undocumented accounts that have passed through various internet and non-authoritative works.
The very idea that a tracked vehicle could be built to carry a battleship turret of the Gneisenau type with a pair of 280mm naval rifles, as suggested in the Ratte concept, exceeds most powers of belief. Quite simply, if one visits the surviving C turret of Gneisenau that the Germans emplaced for coast defense in the Austratt Fort at Orlandet in the Trondheim region, the realities become apparent. The power supplies, magazines, and machinery required for such a turret would require far more than a 1,000-ton man-made object to simply support it in a static position. There is also a failure to record any likely justification for such a mobile weapon. If not a hoax, it very likely might have been an engineer’s parlor game or other object of amusement. The same criteria apply to the “Monster,” a concept for a self-propelled mounting for the 800mm Gustav/Dora cannon. The three to four railroad tracks required for the Dora gun and its personnel and supporting equipment already exceeded the rumored characteristics of this fantasy fully tracked device." Kenneth W Estes - Super-heavy Tanks of World War II, Osprey Publishing, ISBN-10: 1782003835 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.52.247.237 ( talk) 19:28, 3 September 2019 (UTC)
The main addition should have been to the article body, with a short summary in the lead per WP:LEAD. Putting the new text early in the article, and adding "possibly fanciful" to the lead, for instance. ( Hohum @) 22:09, 3 September 2019 (UTC)
I can't find any reference to the V12Z32/44 being used in u-boats, but it does seem to have been intended to be used in the German destroyer Z51. [1] However, it seems they were prototypes that never made it out of testing. ( Hohum @) 15:45, 18 January 2020 (UTC)
References
I just read the tank encyclopedia article in the P1000 projekt (wich is better sourced than this article) and it is all falling apart. It seems the current images and description of the p1000 are fake created by internet users, as the original drawings don't look even close to this. Someone please look into this, and ask tank encyclopedia for help. It seems the p1000 idea isn't a hoax, but it is wrongly documented, described and imaged. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Juanal expert ( talk • contribs) 09:40, 4 April 2022 (UTC)
Landkreuzer P. 1000 Ratte has been listed as one of the
Warfare good articles under the
good article criteria. If you can improve it further,
please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can
reassess it. Review: May 26, 2015. ( Reviewed version). |
It is requested that an image or photograph of Landkreuzer P. 1000 Ratte be
included in this article to
improve its quality. Please replace this template with a more specific
media request template where possible.
The Free Image Search Tool or Openverse Creative Commons Search may be able to locate suitable images on Flickr and other web sites. |
This article was nominated for deletion on 19 May 2007. The result of the discussion was keep. |
This article is rated GA-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||
|
In his book, "My Tank is Fight", Zack Parsons has devoted an entire chapter on this über-tank. Hugo Dufort 06:22, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
The book includes a concept drawing for what it'd look like: —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Havermayer ( talk • contribs) 05:56, 1 January 2007 (UTC).
I've reverted the incorrect claim that this is a hoax originated by Parsons. It may still be a hoax, but if so, it's a much older one.
1. I contributed the initial revision of this article in August 2004. I can't tell the exact date now because the article failed AFD in June 2006 and was deleted (along with its revision history) before being recreated in August 2006 after Parsons book was released. (This recreated version remains substantially similar to my original text, which is perfectly fine, but the record of the original contributors has been lost, which is mildly irritating as well as technically a GFDL violation.)
2. I created the article by following a red link on the Panzer_VIII_Maus page, using as source material the page on actungpanzer.com and the page on panzerschreck.de. I don't remember finding any other sources on Google at that time. Neither of those pages appear to have anything to do with Parsons.
3. In June 2006 the article was nominated for deletion by User:TomTheHand for failing WP:V. TomTheHand stated that he knew about the tank from internet tank forums for years, but when trying to track down a proper source found just how sketchy the available info was. The nominator did a remarkable amount of work before and during the AFD to save the article, including two trips to a university library. During the AFD Parsons then-upcoming book was mentioned only briefly as it seemed to be derived from the existing material and was not an acceptable source in any case. There was a rumour of a German language source but nobody was able to track down a copy. The achtungpanzer webmaster, George Parada, turned out to be a fairly reputable amateur historian and the author of at least one published picture book of "crazy stuff the Nazis nearly built", but did not reply to the nominators email asking about his source for the Ratte material. In spite of my initial bias toward saving the article, I was forced to agree with TomTheHand that the article did not meet the WP:V standard and voted for deletion.
4. The article was deleted, but was later (almost immediately) recreated by someone else. This was almost certainly an innocent mistake since all the above useful information, history, and consensus was buried when the article was deleted (although I see the AFD disussion is still available, if you know exactly where to look, at Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/P-1000). This has caused me to rethink the wisdom of the slash-and-burn salt-the-earth deletion policy, especially as it pertains to articles that will inevitably be recreated. Prominently tagging the article as questionable may have worked out better in the long run. (Protecting it from recreation may have worked as well, at the cost of evoking confusion and outrage in users blocked from recreating it but without being told why.)
-- Saucepan 18:51, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
This vehicle has an estimated road speed of 40 kph. Where is there a road big enough to handle it? I'm also curious to know how they planned on deploying it overseas, it's not like it'll fit on any of the ships then in use. The Nazis would have also needed to design a ship like one of the Mighty Servants to move it anywhere.
Then comes the question, how and where was this beast supposed to be serviced? Ships have dry docks, tanks use big garages, and a tank this huge will sooner or later need it's engines replaced. Anynobody 02:01, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
I looked through most of my books, and was able to come up with two books which reference period documents: Special-Panzerfahrzeuge des deutschen Heeres by Walther Spielberger and Waffen und Geheimwaffen des deutschen Heeres 1933-1945 (vol. 2) by Fritz Hahn. The information they give is limited (and in German), but it's the best I can find. I recently wrote an article on the P 1000 based on these books, but I'm unsure whether I'd be allowed to link to this article and use it myself as an English source under the WP:SOAP and WP:COI rules. Christian Ankerstjerne ( talk) 14:17, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
I find it incredible that the article doesn't even mention the possibility that the P1000 is a hoax. I will make an appropriate ammendment to the introduction. Getztashida ( talk) 15:11, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
I'm telling you what the rules for inclusion are. "Personal proof" isn't relevant to wikipedia - WP:RS are. You can't include claims that it is a hoax if it's unsubstantiated. It is mentioned in the remaining references, some of which are poor (and I recently removed an unusable one). Spielberger, however, is respected. That is not to suggest the Ratte was anything but ridiculous. It seems to have been rejected very early in the planning stages, but there was at least a notion for the design at the time. I believe Jentz also mentions it one of his books, although I don't have that one (JENTZ, Thomas L. & DOYLE, Hilary L. Panzer Tracts No. 20-1 - Paper Panzers).
RE: the hoax theories: here's a recent source that might be useful (in French). Trucks & Tanks magazine, issue 32. Cover story is "Landkreuzer P.1000, le projet secret d'Hitler". It's not a scholarly magazine, but it sure as heck ain't sensationalist. That same issue features a dissection of Arab-Israeli tank warfare written by a French general which is truly illuminating. http://www.trucks-tanks.com/trucks-tanks32.php 93.92.153.10 ( talk) 12:36, 17 July 2015 (UTC)
This article needs a picture, either official blueprint or a reimagination by an artist, to clearly sample the proportions of the landkreuzer.
I have removed the following source. Adolf: Webster's Quotations, Facts and Phrases By Inc Icon Group International ISBN 9780546657081. It contains information taken from Wikipedia (see page ii) and the Ratte section is marked as such, with [WP]. google book view ( Hohum @) 23:52, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
Despite persistent rumors to the contrary, there is no evidence that a turret was ever constructed. I removed a reference to an article that didn't cite any sources. The article's illustration furthermore showed a single-barrel turret in Norway, as opposed to the proposed dual-barrel turret of the Ratte. Likewise, I removed all references to a turret being build at all, in The Netherlands, Norway or elsewhere. The text was speculative, and looked liked it had been appended each time someone new wanted to write about his version of the myth. This gave the text a very staccato appearence. The burden of evidence rest with those who claims a turret was made, and such evidence should be verifiable. Specific claims should be removed on sight, unless backed up by verifiable sources. It might, however, be reasonable to add a short text, along the lines of 'There are several accounts of a Ratte turret being build. Such accounts are usually either too vague to be verified, or refer to actual turrets that are known to come from scrapped Kriegsmarine battleships.' Christian Ankerstjerne ( talk) 22:52, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
Actually, two Gneisenau turrets were installed in naval forts in Norway. B turret was installed in Fjell Fort in Sotra near Bergen, while C turret is in Austrått Fort in Ørlandet which I visited two weeks ago (the A turret was dismantled and its guns placed in Hoek van Holland near Rotterdam). These are original triple 28cm turrets that were removed from the Gneisenau in spring 1942 after it was partially wrecked by bombers in Kiel on 26th and 27th February. While there was plans to upgrade the class to dual 380 mm turrets, this never materialized. Clearly then the statement "its primary weapons would have been two 280 mm guns mounted in the same type of gun turret used in Gneisenau class warships" is in error.
Now, if someone possibly build a dual turret using the same guns as in Gneisenau I don't know. However, if someone decided to ship this to Norway we would surely have heard of it. The installation of B turret needed the slave labour of 1600 eastern European prisoners of war, while C turret required 3-400 Serb POWs, ferries from the Danish Railroads, a specially constructed harbour and over a year of frantic activity which affected the local population in several ways (like getting their windows blown in during test firings). Had a third turret been installed somewhere we would have found it by now. Geira
I sorted the comments a bit. Christian Ankerstjerne ( talk) 22:52, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
The lede states that the Maus is the second largest tank ever built. However, I could not find mention of any heavier tank...?!? -- DevSolar ( talk) 13:13, 17 July 2012 (UTC)
G'day, I have been learning a lot of this tank and frankly quite been interested in it. I've given sources based on other statements given on several other language wiki's, but this has also given some more sources that may provide usefulness. Infact I am surprised that this much coverage can be given for a tank that wasn't even built and super sacred.
I did snatch
this up and it's also from one of the sources provided. This makes things very easy to source now. But, can anyone access the sources given in the Russian version of this page? I would like to see what content can be found there.
Burklemore1 (
talk)
12:33, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
GA toolbox |
---|
Reviewing |
Reviewer: Tomandjerry211 ( talk · contribs) 22:48, 25 May 2015 (UTC)
Give me a little bit of time to go over it completely. Thanks, Tomandjerry211 ( Let's have a chat) 22:48, 25 May 2015 (UTC)
Rate | Attribute | Review Comment |
---|---|---|
1. Well-written: | ||
1a. the prose is clear, concise, and understandable to an appropriately broad audience; spelling and grammar are correct. |
| |
1b. it complies with the Manual of Style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation. |
| |
2. Verifiable with no original research: | ||
2a. it contains a list of all references (sources of information), presented in accordance with the layout style guideline. | ||
2b. reliable sources are cited inline. All content that could reasonably be challenged, except for plot summaries and that which summarizes cited content elsewhere in the article, must be cited no later than the end of the paragraph (or line if the content is not in prose). | ||
2c. it contains no original research. | ||
3. Broad in its coverage: | ||
3a. it addresses the main aspects of the topic. | ||
3b. it stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style). | ||
4. Neutral: it represents viewpoints fairly and without editorial bias, giving due weight to each. | ||
5. Stable: it does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute. | ||
6. Illustrated, if possible, by media such as images, video, or audio: | ||
6a. media are tagged with their copyright statuses, and valid non-free use rationales are provided for non-free content. | ||
6b. media are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions. | ||
7. Overall assessment. |
Thanks for the review, I'll get onto these now. Burklemore1 ( talk) 05:10, 26 May 2015 (UTC)
Herr Gruber, to avoid an edit war, let's have a civil discussion, shall we? While I see where you are coming from, I highly disapprove of removing text that provides a comprehensive overview of the article that can be simply altered, rather than being deleted. Did you not think of that? Burklemore1 ( talk) 04:51, 10 October 2015 (UTC)
So, I get it that the P1000 is the internet's favourite "Those Wacky Nazis" thing, but does not anyone think it might be a good idea to actually admit that some historians think the whole thing is a hoax? No one? Let's be honest, what we know is that there was a request for a feasibility study - that's incontrovertible, it's in the archives - and there's well authenticated photograph of a model of a super-heavy tank that might be the legendary 1000 ton tank proposal, but it looks nothing like the picture of the "P1000 Ratte" that's taken over the popular imagination. The rest of the history and technical content here is all speculation. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A00:23A8:400E:E501:60FE:9DD9:3CA6:2295 ( talk) 15:45, 30 August 2019 (UTC)
"In the case of the German Army, the evident burdens on the bureaus could have only worsened had they attempted to build, let alone operate, the more fantastic and apocryphal concept designs that supposedly floated through the increasingly byzantine channels of their tank procurement. These fantasies include the projects called Ratte and Monster in the undocumented accounts that have passed through various internet and non-authoritative works.
The very idea that a tracked vehicle could be built to carry a battleship turret of the Gneisenau type with a pair of 280mm naval rifles, as suggested in the Ratte concept, exceeds most powers of belief. Quite simply, if one visits the surviving C turret of Gneisenau that the Germans emplaced for coast defense in the Austratt Fort at Orlandet in the Trondheim region, the realities become apparent. The power supplies, magazines, and machinery required for such a turret would require far more than a 1,000-ton man-made object to simply support it in a static position. There is also a failure to record any likely justification for such a mobile weapon. If not a hoax, it very likely might have been an engineer’s parlor game or other object of amusement. The same criteria apply to the “Monster,” a concept for a self-propelled mounting for the 800mm Gustav/Dora cannon. The three to four railroad tracks required for the Dora gun and its personnel and supporting equipment already exceeded the rumored characteristics of this fantasy fully tracked device." Kenneth W Estes - Super-heavy Tanks of World War II, Osprey Publishing, ISBN-10: 1782003835 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.52.247.237 ( talk) 19:28, 3 September 2019 (UTC)
The main addition should have been to the article body, with a short summary in the lead per WP:LEAD. Putting the new text early in the article, and adding "possibly fanciful" to the lead, for instance. ( Hohum @) 22:09, 3 September 2019 (UTC)
I can't find any reference to the V12Z32/44 being used in u-boats, but it does seem to have been intended to be used in the German destroyer Z51. [1] However, it seems they were prototypes that never made it out of testing. ( Hohum @) 15:45, 18 January 2020 (UTC)
References
I just read the tank encyclopedia article in the P1000 projekt (wich is better sourced than this article) and it is all falling apart. It seems the current images and description of the p1000 are fake created by internet users, as the original drawings don't look even close to this. Someone please look into this, and ask tank encyclopedia for help. It seems the p1000 idea isn't a hoax, but it is wrongly documented, described and imaged. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Juanal expert ( talk • contribs) 09:40, 4 April 2022 (UTC)