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Jan Ullrich is the man for the tour of 2004! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.194.94.204 ( talk) 00:29, 2 July 2004 (UTC)
CyclingNews reports on even more EPO tests getting thrown out: [1]
They undertook additional tests under the guidance of the Belgian scientists dealing with Rutger Beke's case. All three triathletes were shown to have extremely high protein levels in their urine after strenuous exercise, which according to recent findings by Belgian and Australian scientists, is one of the main causes of false positive EPO tests.
Dr. Mujika also pointed out that, "Athletes throughout the world are at risk of falsely testing positive for rEPO, given that the new criteria established by WADA are not known and the major issue with the test, which is the lack of specificity of the antibodies they use, causing cross reactivity with urinary proteins that have nothing to do with EPO, still remains. It all suggests that the change of criteria is just a desperate manoeuvre to save the urinary EPO test, despite the fact that it has recently been questioned by Belgian and Australian scientists."
As for anonymity, apparently the samples were DATED, which makes it much easier to determine whose samples are being tested: [2]
Le Journal du Dimanche said four positives were on urine samples taken at the '99 Tour prologue. Armstrong was tested that day because he won the prologue, while Beltran, Hamburger and Castelblanco were picked for tests on a random basis, the newspaper said.
This is yet another black mark against the whole procedure, as established practices of chain-of-custody and anonymity are not being followed. This whole 5-years-after-the-fact testing is blowing up in WADA/UCI's faces.
I think it is not going to ve very profesional if we keep on adding and erasing the paragraph about Armstrong's relation with EPO. Please leave a single line about it, something arbitrary like:
"Armstrong has been once related with EPO in France by the L'Equipe newspaper, but at the same time his success in several editions of the Tour has been widely recognized."
Agreed. The "Allegations of Drug Use" section is now as large as the rest of the article combined. Users like User:David.Monniaux keep expanding the doping section into more detail on every infraction, and insist that the introduction itself should have an entire paragraph devoted to suspicions and rumors without substantiation. Trying to rebut this increases the size even more. If a user keeps adding accusations, is it unfair to say they "have it out" for Lance?
By the same reasoning, we should take every article about any somewhat controversial personality and edit out the controversy section, saying something like "Mr X is considered by many to be a great guy, yet some people don't like him." Come to think of it, this would greatly simplify writing biographies.
Let us summarize the facts:
This would not be deemed to be proof by a court of law. However, this would certainly be called circumstancial evidence suggesting the need for further enquiry. And, certainly, such information should be reflected in the article.
Armstrong strongly denies having doped himself. However, he has very strong financial and personal interests to do so. Also, it is a fact that major riders have declared not to have doped themselves, before being proved to be doped ( Marco Pantani and Richard Virenque come to mind). Thus, one may validly question Armstrong's credibility in his denials.
Perhaps the current presentation is inadequate, and the doping section could be summarized; yet, I think that the proposed changes amount to bowdlerization and censorship.
Remember, we are not here to judge whether or not Armstrong was doped up. We are here to present widely available information on him. David.Monniaux 13:31, 26 August 2005 (UTC)
Perhaps that section deserves a mention of Dr. Ferrari, as well as the numerous allegations coming from former USPS employees. Peoplesunionpro 04:06, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
I removed the logical fallacies from the Drug Use section. I have given specific reasons for each instanced below.
Removed paragraphs on Armstrong/Simeoni. Red Herring: The information, while valid, has nothing to do with the stated topic of the section (doping). If it is to be reintegrated it belongs in a separate section, though its importance is questionable. Criticism of Armstrong’s actions in this instance also holds no importance to the issue of drug use either, serving as a distraction to the arguments.
Removed mention of Christophe Bassons book. Appeal to Authority/Innuendo/False Dilema: Bassons possesses no training or education to give him any insights into the nature of physical characteristics. Implying that Armstong has unnatural performance when compared to Bassons proposes the False Dilemma that individuals of similar physical characteristics will either have similar performance or one will have cheated.
Removed mention of accusations regarding Armstrong’s donation: Ad Hominem Circumstantial: Appeal to Motive special case. While the accusation has been made (and thus might have a place here), the accusation itself is a logical fallacy and Wikipedia attempts to record valid information, not wild conjectures.
Thought 18:20, 26 August 2005 (UTC)
I removed a great deal of information from the doping section (information that may very well have been factually corrrect). I left the direct statements from the parties involved and a short summary noting that the allegations remain disputed. My reasoning: While it may very well be possible to write several books examining these accusations, an article which only devotes short paragraphs to the aspects his life is not a suitable place for them. I'd also everyone to consider the fact that knowledge of whether Armstrong doped is only noteworthy if the answer is exceptional. If Armstrong did not dope and none of the other riders did, it only deserves a short mention. Likewise, if "everyone on the Tour dopes" and Armstrong did as well, we do not need a doctoral thesis examining the issue. We should only devote significant space to the issue if there is evidence showing Armstrong's conduct was remarkable (he doped and no one else did, or everyone else doped and he did not).
I think this article is too much of a lovefest. Certainly some mention of doping allegations as well as refutations should be included here.
No. The drugs allegations are more serious and persistent than a few "hate filled people"; especially w.r.t. his association with Michele Ferrari. They're largely hearsay, but they need mentioning, as must the lack of any substantive evidence against him.
Added by herve661: the issue of wether he was doped or not is extremely important. If true, it would be one of the biggest impostors ever, and I think we should report everything known about doping. There are as I said countless proofs and testimony of doping in cyclism on a large scale. Not reporting it would be biased.
BTW, l'equipe is in no way a tabloid. This is just talking Lance Armstrong's wordings without any actual check. You almost never see accusations like against Lance Armstrong in front page. It was not sensationalism, if such a great champion is really doped and they have proof of that, they are just doing their work.
The quote in the article with regard to Lance's answer to the doping question is incorrect. I am afraid to change it without consulting the community (as many are quite emotional on the subject), but it is wholly incorrect. In point of fact, Lance has never unequivocally denied using performance enhancing substances. Now, he has to be guarded because when he had cancer, he had to take EPO to stay alive, and he currently requires testosterone injections due to the fallout from his ordeal with cancer. But in every press conference he has had, he is continually asked the same question: "can you categorically deny using performance enhancing substances in your lifetime" and he always responds with a very interesting answer: "I can absolutely confirm that we don’t use doping products. Now, that is not a denial. First of all that answer is only in the present tense and does not speak to the past. Also, keeping in mind that some types of growth hormone (which can permanently effect an athelete's strength development) also tend to cause testicular cancer, one has to wonder if as a young aspiring racer, Lance danced with the devil and got burned. Certainly, since he has had cancer, he has become the most drug tested athelete in sports, and has never used anything, or he would be caught. But he has never, EVER denied using "performance enhancing" substances before he got cancer. Not once. He has denied doping, i.e. EPO etc., but never development-altering drugs. Human Growth Hormone is not a doping agent. Take a look at http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2004/jul04/jul26news2, former USPS team doctor claiming he was fired for not providing doping agents the year before Lance joined. I am not saying Lance took drugs. I am saying that he has NEVER categorically denied taking them, and the Wikipedia entry to this effect is factually incorrect. He has repeatedly made a limited denial. At some point, some Wikipedian needs to put the truth in here... and bear the brunt of Hell which hath no Fury like Lance Fans. Good luck! Gambrill 20:21, 26 Jul 2004 (UTC)
--- The above information is incorrect. Lance does not use testosterone. In the June 2005 Playboy interview, Lance says: "You also produce less testosterone. The one that remains picks up a bit of the slack for his buddy who's gone, but not all of it. Since 1996 I've had chronically low testosterone, and I can't do anything about it."
The interview continues:
PLAYBOY: It's a banned substance. You couldn't race if you replaced the testosterone you lost.
ARMSTRONG: I have to wait until I retire. It's not a question of being manly or being a sexual god, but I worry about osteoporosis. Chronically low testosterone leads to brittle bones.
---
1st Response: Those claims by the former USPS doctor have been vehemently rebutted by Tyler Hamilton, one of the people the doctor has accused. See
http://www.velonews.com/tour2004/diaries/articles/6685.0.html or
http://www.tylerhamilton.com/
As for the insinuation about human growth hormone, where is any evidence for that?
And NO product "permanently" increases anyone's strength, despite your unfounded allegation above. Additionally, it is unclear how taking growth hormone would help an endurance athlete. Not to mention your insinuations about 1996 or prior admittedly have nothing to do with Lance's success since 1999.
Finally, I recall reading circa 2000 that cyclists have something like 3 times the normal incidence of testicular tumors -- most of which are benign. Apparently having a bike seat jammed into your crotch for thousands of miles of rubbing causes problems. No need to trot out the unfounded GH boogeyman.
--
1st Rebuttal:
Tyler Hamilton is now a convicted doper, and Dr. Ferrari, Lance's doctor of ten years, has now been found guilty of sports fraud in a doping investigation. Not that Lance is guilty by assosciation, but neither is he "innocent by assosciation" as you imply above. For more information about how Growth Hormone and testosterone help endurance atheletes and permanently affect human development, see the following article by
Prentice Steffen, MD, FAAEM at
Velonews. gedankenexperiment: If Growth Hormone DOES NOT permanently affect development, why is it
given to people with pituitary conditions to help them grow taller? If the effects are not permanent, does this mean someone given GH (Growth Hormone) their entire life who has achieved a height of 6 feet tall will shrink if they stop taking it? Please read the NIH article. Information about Lance's refusal to deny using strength enhancing products or to categorically deny doping should be in this article. I will not add it though for fear of being banned by wingnuts.
Gambrill 18:23, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Rebutting your Rebuttal: Your rebuttal was very misleading, Tyler Hamilton is NOT a "convicted" doper, that case is still under investigation, it's a new test and the first substancial 'positive' test, questions of the reliability of the test, for all we know Tyler Hamilton could be a chimera. Dr. Ferrari has been found guilty in the doping investigation, but was NOT "Lance's Doctor" he was a friend and consulted on training programs, but was never Lance's primary sports physiologist, physician, coach, trainer, podiatrist, research fellow, or any other form of a "doctor".
2nd response Futher to Gambrill talking about persons using growth hormone's to increase one's hieght is not physiologically linked to the fitness or endurance abilities hence short poeple being top class sportpersons too. I would like anyone who tries to write about doping to try to at least get the facts about the products physiological effects first and not just spout off.Yes it is true that GH effects do last your whole life but fittness and ability change constantly so it can't have a permanment effect on those.It is also irresponsable to say that lance has never denined taking perfomance enhancing products when in his book he does say he took EPO as a medical product and never while competing as an amatuer or professional.To say that medical an sports are one in the same just proves that the knowledge base used for the comment is seriously tainted and needs to be corrected first, maybe the writer would like to try having cancer and not having medical treament and see if he survives.The original statement that was posted is more jealousy than fact finding as performance enhancers are just that. If people cant understand the differences,and therefore the answers then maybe they need to spend more time reading articals and talking to experts and less time shouting about what has and has not been said by the athelete's concerned
I received a newsletter this morning with the following quote by Dan Miller -- 'I love having goals and see what it can do to transform results in people's lives. But a goal obsession can blur our view of a larger mission. As Lance Armstrong held his trophy high over his head Sunday, he said, "This is more important than anything." That appears obvious. His former wife Kristin still lives in Texas and did not respond to interview requests from The Associated Press. Probably busy taking care of Lance's three children, Luke, aged 3 and the twins, Isabelle Rose and Grace Elisabeth, not yet 1. My own son is a professional bicycle racer - we know what winning requires. But if Kevin had raised the trophy yesterday in Paris and along the way opted out of being "daddy" to my three grandkids - I'd grab the trophy and melt it down as a paperweight.'
It would be interesting to elaborate on the personal sacrifices Armstrong appears to have made in pursuit of his goal of winning at apparently all costs. H2O 21:55, 27 Jul 2004 (UTC)
--- 1st Response: Not sure when that newsletter was sent, but Luke was born Oct 1999 and the twins were born Nov 2001 according to http://espn.go.com/classic/biography/s/Armstrong_Lance.html so that would appear to date it in Oct or Nov of 2002, except it says "his former wife", in which case it would be talking about 2004 with Luke now almost 5 and the twins coming up on their 3rd birthday. If that's the case, Lance has said repeatedly that he wants to spend much more time with the kids and is even skipping the Olympics to do just that. And prior to the divorce, both parents were raising the kids together.
There is no indication that he has opted out of being the "daddy" to his children; although he was apart for a few months due to his ex-wife staying in Texas. Previously, she would come along and bring the kids to Spain and France. The divorce changed that for 2004.
Also, "daddy" has certainly provided for his kids by becoming a multi-millionaire. If daddy has to go to work in Europe and mommy won't come along with the kids like she used to, should we blame daddy for that? He can't race the TdF in Texas, but she can sure stay at their various luxurious residences in Europe. And he's even giving up his last shot at the Olympics to be with them.
your in-house trivia is unencyclopedic. When editing you said ......it helps to be familiar with her music before editing out the humor. More precisely, people need to know the joke before they know what it means. Millions of people have never heard of Crow, they have never heard her songs, they wouldn't have a clue what is supposed to be meant by many pundits have noted: If it makes him happy, it can't be that bad which you say is humour. It could not be obvious to everyone exactly what the joke is supposed to be, and anything not obvious to the reader has no place in any article. Moriori 00:39, Aug 4, 2004 (UTC)
Response:
"anything not obvious to the reader has no place in any article" -- the whole point of an encyclopedia is to provide the reader with information that may not be obvious. I have never heard of a definition for an encyclopedia that fits with your implication: "a collection of painfully obvious information".
If you want to be helpful, feel free to add a couple lines of background information to explain the joke. One could say, "many pundits have taken a line from her hit song and quipped..." In my opinion, that makes it somewhat less amusing, but perhaps it would assuage the easily ego-bruised who chafe at finding out they didn't get a joke they should have known. Some people actually *laugh* when they get the punchline.
And horrors, how awful is it to include jokes that are not "obvious to everyone"? I'd love to see your redactions for the entry on Humor.
Let's not underestimate the reader. Besides, there is information there: a connection to a hit song that got immense amounts of radio play, and the fact that many people who follow cycling have made that same joke.
Ever had a professor who said something funny in the middle of a lecture just to see if the class was awake?
Everyone likes educators with a sense of humor. Let's not try to be dry and stuffy before we hit our seventies, please.
As a champion on the side of humor and general silliness, I am obviously on the side of Goodness and Yoda and so forth. Do you really want to be on the unfunny side of the Force?
UPDATE: Oh my Lord, your over-explanation of the joke de-funnitizes it. Matt Crypto's edited version: Many Lance fans have quipped, "If it makes him happy, it can't be that bad", a joke making reference to one of Crow's hits containing the lyric, "If it makes you happy, it can't be that bad".
I think I speak for myself when I say the humor-impaired "editors" here surely would not be any fun to be stuck in an elevator with, regardless of the amount of Vaseline present. I think I'll leave the butchered version intact as a testament to Showgirls, until someone else puts it out of its misery.
(update conflict as the above was being posted; added more below)
UPDATE 2: Your appalling lack of Pythonesque sensibilities doesn't excuse your lack of pop culture awareness; Sheryl Crow Topped the UK LP chart when that song hit the Top 10. Anyhow if our standard is going to be "do people in Kenya know about it?", we may as well delete anything referring to our wealthy Western lifestyles and add more articles on how to wrangle wildebeest.
Someone removed "Cyclists" as a category, with the edit comment "removed unneeded cat". Just because Armstrong is an American cyclist means he's not a cyclist? Shouldn't all cyclists be in the cyclists category, and only American cyclists in the American cyclists category? I understand that "American cyclists" is a subcat of cyclists, but so what?
I'm adding it back, and would appreciate an explanation if it is removed again. -- Serge 20:56, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
I think this paragraph should be mostly moved down to an "awards" section. The reason is that most of these listed are corporate (American corporate) "awards" rather than meaningful neutral awards. It represents a particularly American corporate POV to highlight the successes of their own prized and invested athletes, and likewise it seems like its advertising here. - SV| t 18:05, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
"competing in seniors' competitions from the age of 16"—from what age did he compete in juniors' competitions? JHCC (talk) 19:22, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
I'm deleting this because of its inaccuracies. Pro cyclists don't necessarily race in several major races because of a cultural attitude, but rather because it's part of their job. Other European cyclists concentrate solely on the Tour as well, and race as little, or less than Armstrong does. His rivals all concentrate purely on the Tour de France, so I don't see this as a reason for success... at least not in recent years. And he raced in other major events regularily during his Tour de France winning seasons. Peoplesunionpro 13:15, July 26, 2005 (UTC)
The current article fails to reflect the changes in Armstrong's physique that played were particularly suited to winning the Tour de France. As a result of the cancer treatment, Armstrong lost a significant amount of muscle (as a pro-cyclist he had very low body fat, so weight lost through treatment was almost entirely muscle) and was able to change his riding style from a more powerful rider, to one that relied on high cadence. This was significant as it is more suited to the Tour's hill stages, where large gears make it difficult to attack or defend attacks. Armstrong's racing weight is approximately 19 pounds lighter than before the cancer. An article in Bicycling Australia (July/August 2005) quotes Armstrong as saying, "When I came back I began racing at almost 30 pounds less than before the treatments. I am a pretty willful guy, but I never would have had the self-dicipline to loose 30 pounds".
I would like to see a source reference for some of the claims in this paragraph:
While Armstrong's physical attributes may be "super" compared to the average person, and how do they compare to the average Tour rider? That a world class athlete has above average physical attributes from genes should be no surprise to anyone. What might be significant is how those attributes compare to other world class athletes, not to the norm.
If the source of this is the Discovery Channel or CNN story on him, I thought I heard the doctor say "only" "1 in 100 Americans" has the same physical attributes as Armstrong. By my calculations, that's not just a "few thousand people in the United States", but almost three million. -- Serge 18:29, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
However, whether his competitors were similarly physically gifted is not known, but the fact that his strongest competitors lost only a handful of minutes in over 2500 miles of racing indicates to some that any advantage could not be very significant.
How unique? Evidently able to win the TdF from the Twilight Zone: "high gear and brute strength. Armstrong maintained a high speed even..." Yes? Trekphiler 22:33, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
I'm translating this page for Wikipedia Chinese Version, and I cannot understand the term "10/2" line in the sentence "The date of October 2 was eventually commemorated by Armstrong and Nike, through the "10 / 2" line of merchandise, of which part of the proceeds would go to the Lance Armstrong Foundation, which was founded in 1997. " Help, Thanks. 谢谢! -- 60.232.175.144 15:00, 28 July 2005 (UTC) Truth
Thanks. Actually it's the term ---"10 / 2" line of merchandise--- bothering me.-- 60.232.175.144 21:33, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Lance Armstrong/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.
Comment(s) | Press [show] to view → |
---|---|
*has some unsourced statements
plange
00:45, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
Who rated it GA? It is not a good article. Happily ever after 23:38, 25 September 2006 (UTC) == Comments on 3 April 2009 ==
Sums up his career nicely. I don't know if the awards should be listed here... At the end, it says that Armstrong returned later, without mentioning whén he returned.
Compared to the rest of the article, this is too long.
Nice!
I think this should be part of the post-cycling career.
I don't think might be better directly after Tour de France success, to keep all cycling-related things close to each other.
His Amateur cycling and triathlon years results should be placed first, and in chronological order. Team names are not needed here. Race format should be different, I think, but there is no standard for this yet.
The format makes the list hard to read. The list seems to be in random order.
Should be moved to wikiquote.
These should be cleaned: some should be turned into references (the story about his stolen bike, the USA TODAY piece), others should just be removed (the youtube link, the video of Armstrong at Aspen). This is my quick review for the version of 3 April 2009! -- EdgeNavidad ( talk) 12:36, 3 April 2009 (UTC) |
Last edited at 12:36, 3 April 2009 (UTC). Substituted at 19:59, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | → | Archive 5 |
Jan Ullrich is the man for the tour of 2004! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.194.94.204 ( talk) 00:29, 2 July 2004 (UTC)
CyclingNews reports on even more EPO tests getting thrown out: [1]
They undertook additional tests under the guidance of the Belgian scientists dealing with Rutger Beke's case. All three triathletes were shown to have extremely high protein levels in their urine after strenuous exercise, which according to recent findings by Belgian and Australian scientists, is one of the main causes of false positive EPO tests.
Dr. Mujika also pointed out that, "Athletes throughout the world are at risk of falsely testing positive for rEPO, given that the new criteria established by WADA are not known and the major issue with the test, which is the lack of specificity of the antibodies they use, causing cross reactivity with urinary proteins that have nothing to do with EPO, still remains. It all suggests that the change of criteria is just a desperate manoeuvre to save the urinary EPO test, despite the fact that it has recently been questioned by Belgian and Australian scientists."
As for anonymity, apparently the samples were DATED, which makes it much easier to determine whose samples are being tested: [2]
Le Journal du Dimanche said four positives were on urine samples taken at the '99 Tour prologue. Armstrong was tested that day because he won the prologue, while Beltran, Hamburger and Castelblanco were picked for tests on a random basis, the newspaper said.
This is yet another black mark against the whole procedure, as established practices of chain-of-custody and anonymity are not being followed. This whole 5-years-after-the-fact testing is blowing up in WADA/UCI's faces.
I think it is not going to ve very profesional if we keep on adding and erasing the paragraph about Armstrong's relation with EPO. Please leave a single line about it, something arbitrary like:
"Armstrong has been once related with EPO in France by the L'Equipe newspaper, but at the same time his success in several editions of the Tour has been widely recognized."
Agreed. The "Allegations of Drug Use" section is now as large as the rest of the article combined. Users like User:David.Monniaux keep expanding the doping section into more detail on every infraction, and insist that the introduction itself should have an entire paragraph devoted to suspicions and rumors without substantiation. Trying to rebut this increases the size even more. If a user keeps adding accusations, is it unfair to say they "have it out" for Lance?
By the same reasoning, we should take every article about any somewhat controversial personality and edit out the controversy section, saying something like "Mr X is considered by many to be a great guy, yet some people don't like him." Come to think of it, this would greatly simplify writing biographies.
Let us summarize the facts:
This would not be deemed to be proof by a court of law. However, this would certainly be called circumstancial evidence suggesting the need for further enquiry. And, certainly, such information should be reflected in the article.
Armstrong strongly denies having doped himself. However, he has very strong financial and personal interests to do so. Also, it is a fact that major riders have declared not to have doped themselves, before being proved to be doped ( Marco Pantani and Richard Virenque come to mind). Thus, one may validly question Armstrong's credibility in his denials.
Perhaps the current presentation is inadequate, and the doping section could be summarized; yet, I think that the proposed changes amount to bowdlerization and censorship.
Remember, we are not here to judge whether or not Armstrong was doped up. We are here to present widely available information on him. David.Monniaux 13:31, 26 August 2005 (UTC)
Perhaps that section deserves a mention of Dr. Ferrari, as well as the numerous allegations coming from former USPS employees. Peoplesunionpro 04:06, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
I removed the logical fallacies from the Drug Use section. I have given specific reasons for each instanced below.
Removed paragraphs on Armstrong/Simeoni. Red Herring: The information, while valid, has nothing to do with the stated topic of the section (doping). If it is to be reintegrated it belongs in a separate section, though its importance is questionable. Criticism of Armstrong’s actions in this instance also holds no importance to the issue of drug use either, serving as a distraction to the arguments.
Removed mention of Christophe Bassons book. Appeal to Authority/Innuendo/False Dilema: Bassons possesses no training or education to give him any insights into the nature of physical characteristics. Implying that Armstong has unnatural performance when compared to Bassons proposes the False Dilemma that individuals of similar physical characteristics will either have similar performance or one will have cheated.
Removed mention of accusations regarding Armstrong’s donation: Ad Hominem Circumstantial: Appeal to Motive special case. While the accusation has been made (and thus might have a place here), the accusation itself is a logical fallacy and Wikipedia attempts to record valid information, not wild conjectures.
Thought 18:20, 26 August 2005 (UTC)
I removed a great deal of information from the doping section (information that may very well have been factually corrrect). I left the direct statements from the parties involved and a short summary noting that the allegations remain disputed. My reasoning: While it may very well be possible to write several books examining these accusations, an article which only devotes short paragraphs to the aspects his life is not a suitable place for them. I'd also everyone to consider the fact that knowledge of whether Armstrong doped is only noteworthy if the answer is exceptional. If Armstrong did not dope and none of the other riders did, it only deserves a short mention. Likewise, if "everyone on the Tour dopes" and Armstrong did as well, we do not need a doctoral thesis examining the issue. We should only devote significant space to the issue if there is evidence showing Armstrong's conduct was remarkable (he doped and no one else did, or everyone else doped and he did not).
I think this article is too much of a lovefest. Certainly some mention of doping allegations as well as refutations should be included here.
No. The drugs allegations are more serious and persistent than a few "hate filled people"; especially w.r.t. his association with Michele Ferrari. They're largely hearsay, but they need mentioning, as must the lack of any substantive evidence against him.
Added by herve661: the issue of wether he was doped or not is extremely important. If true, it would be one of the biggest impostors ever, and I think we should report everything known about doping. There are as I said countless proofs and testimony of doping in cyclism on a large scale. Not reporting it would be biased.
BTW, l'equipe is in no way a tabloid. This is just talking Lance Armstrong's wordings without any actual check. You almost never see accusations like against Lance Armstrong in front page. It was not sensationalism, if such a great champion is really doped and they have proof of that, they are just doing their work.
The quote in the article with regard to Lance's answer to the doping question is incorrect. I am afraid to change it without consulting the community (as many are quite emotional on the subject), but it is wholly incorrect. In point of fact, Lance has never unequivocally denied using performance enhancing substances. Now, he has to be guarded because when he had cancer, he had to take EPO to stay alive, and he currently requires testosterone injections due to the fallout from his ordeal with cancer. But in every press conference he has had, he is continually asked the same question: "can you categorically deny using performance enhancing substances in your lifetime" and he always responds with a very interesting answer: "I can absolutely confirm that we don’t use doping products. Now, that is not a denial. First of all that answer is only in the present tense and does not speak to the past. Also, keeping in mind that some types of growth hormone (which can permanently effect an athelete's strength development) also tend to cause testicular cancer, one has to wonder if as a young aspiring racer, Lance danced with the devil and got burned. Certainly, since he has had cancer, he has become the most drug tested athelete in sports, and has never used anything, or he would be caught. But he has never, EVER denied using "performance enhancing" substances before he got cancer. Not once. He has denied doping, i.e. EPO etc., but never development-altering drugs. Human Growth Hormone is not a doping agent. Take a look at http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2004/jul04/jul26news2, former USPS team doctor claiming he was fired for not providing doping agents the year before Lance joined. I am not saying Lance took drugs. I am saying that he has NEVER categorically denied taking them, and the Wikipedia entry to this effect is factually incorrect. He has repeatedly made a limited denial. At some point, some Wikipedian needs to put the truth in here... and bear the brunt of Hell which hath no Fury like Lance Fans. Good luck! Gambrill 20:21, 26 Jul 2004 (UTC)
--- The above information is incorrect. Lance does not use testosterone. In the June 2005 Playboy interview, Lance says: "You also produce less testosterone. The one that remains picks up a bit of the slack for his buddy who's gone, but not all of it. Since 1996 I've had chronically low testosterone, and I can't do anything about it."
The interview continues:
PLAYBOY: It's a banned substance. You couldn't race if you replaced the testosterone you lost.
ARMSTRONG: I have to wait until I retire. It's not a question of being manly or being a sexual god, but I worry about osteoporosis. Chronically low testosterone leads to brittle bones.
---
1st Response: Those claims by the former USPS doctor have been vehemently rebutted by Tyler Hamilton, one of the people the doctor has accused. See
http://www.velonews.com/tour2004/diaries/articles/6685.0.html or
http://www.tylerhamilton.com/
As for the insinuation about human growth hormone, where is any evidence for that?
And NO product "permanently" increases anyone's strength, despite your unfounded allegation above. Additionally, it is unclear how taking growth hormone would help an endurance athlete. Not to mention your insinuations about 1996 or prior admittedly have nothing to do with Lance's success since 1999.
Finally, I recall reading circa 2000 that cyclists have something like 3 times the normal incidence of testicular tumors -- most of which are benign. Apparently having a bike seat jammed into your crotch for thousands of miles of rubbing causes problems. No need to trot out the unfounded GH boogeyman.
--
1st Rebuttal:
Tyler Hamilton is now a convicted doper, and Dr. Ferrari, Lance's doctor of ten years, has now been found guilty of sports fraud in a doping investigation. Not that Lance is guilty by assosciation, but neither is he "innocent by assosciation" as you imply above. For more information about how Growth Hormone and testosterone help endurance atheletes and permanently affect human development, see the following article by
Prentice Steffen, MD, FAAEM at
Velonews. gedankenexperiment: If Growth Hormone DOES NOT permanently affect development, why is it
given to people with pituitary conditions to help them grow taller? If the effects are not permanent, does this mean someone given GH (Growth Hormone) their entire life who has achieved a height of 6 feet tall will shrink if they stop taking it? Please read the NIH article. Information about Lance's refusal to deny using strength enhancing products or to categorically deny doping should be in this article. I will not add it though for fear of being banned by wingnuts.
Gambrill 18:23, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Rebutting your Rebuttal: Your rebuttal was very misleading, Tyler Hamilton is NOT a "convicted" doper, that case is still under investigation, it's a new test and the first substancial 'positive' test, questions of the reliability of the test, for all we know Tyler Hamilton could be a chimera. Dr. Ferrari has been found guilty in the doping investigation, but was NOT "Lance's Doctor" he was a friend and consulted on training programs, but was never Lance's primary sports physiologist, physician, coach, trainer, podiatrist, research fellow, or any other form of a "doctor".
2nd response Futher to Gambrill talking about persons using growth hormone's to increase one's hieght is not physiologically linked to the fitness or endurance abilities hence short poeple being top class sportpersons too. I would like anyone who tries to write about doping to try to at least get the facts about the products physiological effects first and not just spout off.Yes it is true that GH effects do last your whole life but fittness and ability change constantly so it can't have a permanment effect on those.It is also irresponsable to say that lance has never denined taking perfomance enhancing products when in his book he does say he took EPO as a medical product and never while competing as an amatuer or professional.To say that medical an sports are one in the same just proves that the knowledge base used for the comment is seriously tainted and needs to be corrected first, maybe the writer would like to try having cancer and not having medical treament and see if he survives.The original statement that was posted is more jealousy than fact finding as performance enhancers are just that. If people cant understand the differences,and therefore the answers then maybe they need to spend more time reading articals and talking to experts and less time shouting about what has and has not been said by the athelete's concerned
I received a newsletter this morning with the following quote by Dan Miller -- 'I love having goals and see what it can do to transform results in people's lives. But a goal obsession can blur our view of a larger mission. As Lance Armstrong held his trophy high over his head Sunday, he said, "This is more important than anything." That appears obvious. His former wife Kristin still lives in Texas and did not respond to interview requests from The Associated Press. Probably busy taking care of Lance's three children, Luke, aged 3 and the twins, Isabelle Rose and Grace Elisabeth, not yet 1. My own son is a professional bicycle racer - we know what winning requires. But if Kevin had raised the trophy yesterday in Paris and along the way opted out of being "daddy" to my three grandkids - I'd grab the trophy and melt it down as a paperweight.'
It would be interesting to elaborate on the personal sacrifices Armstrong appears to have made in pursuit of his goal of winning at apparently all costs. H2O 21:55, 27 Jul 2004 (UTC)
--- 1st Response: Not sure when that newsletter was sent, but Luke was born Oct 1999 and the twins were born Nov 2001 according to http://espn.go.com/classic/biography/s/Armstrong_Lance.html so that would appear to date it in Oct or Nov of 2002, except it says "his former wife", in which case it would be talking about 2004 with Luke now almost 5 and the twins coming up on their 3rd birthday. If that's the case, Lance has said repeatedly that he wants to spend much more time with the kids and is even skipping the Olympics to do just that. And prior to the divorce, both parents were raising the kids together.
There is no indication that he has opted out of being the "daddy" to his children; although he was apart for a few months due to his ex-wife staying in Texas. Previously, she would come along and bring the kids to Spain and France. The divorce changed that for 2004.
Also, "daddy" has certainly provided for his kids by becoming a multi-millionaire. If daddy has to go to work in Europe and mommy won't come along with the kids like she used to, should we blame daddy for that? He can't race the TdF in Texas, but she can sure stay at their various luxurious residences in Europe. And he's even giving up his last shot at the Olympics to be with them.
your in-house trivia is unencyclopedic. When editing you said ......it helps to be familiar with her music before editing out the humor. More precisely, people need to know the joke before they know what it means. Millions of people have never heard of Crow, they have never heard her songs, they wouldn't have a clue what is supposed to be meant by many pundits have noted: If it makes him happy, it can't be that bad which you say is humour. It could not be obvious to everyone exactly what the joke is supposed to be, and anything not obvious to the reader has no place in any article. Moriori 00:39, Aug 4, 2004 (UTC)
Response:
"anything not obvious to the reader has no place in any article" -- the whole point of an encyclopedia is to provide the reader with information that may not be obvious. I have never heard of a definition for an encyclopedia that fits with your implication: "a collection of painfully obvious information".
If you want to be helpful, feel free to add a couple lines of background information to explain the joke. One could say, "many pundits have taken a line from her hit song and quipped..." In my opinion, that makes it somewhat less amusing, but perhaps it would assuage the easily ego-bruised who chafe at finding out they didn't get a joke they should have known. Some people actually *laugh* when they get the punchline.
And horrors, how awful is it to include jokes that are not "obvious to everyone"? I'd love to see your redactions for the entry on Humor.
Let's not underestimate the reader. Besides, there is information there: a connection to a hit song that got immense amounts of radio play, and the fact that many people who follow cycling have made that same joke.
Ever had a professor who said something funny in the middle of a lecture just to see if the class was awake?
Everyone likes educators with a sense of humor. Let's not try to be dry and stuffy before we hit our seventies, please.
As a champion on the side of humor and general silliness, I am obviously on the side of Goodness and Yoda and so forth. Do you really want to be on the unfunny side of the Force?
UPDATE: Oh my Lord, your over-explanation of the joke de-funnitizes it. Matt Crypto's edited version: Many Lance fans have quipped, "If it makes him happy, it can't be that bad", a joke making reference to one of Crow's hits containing the lyric, "If it makes you happy, it can't be that bad".
I think I speak for myself when I say the humor-impaired "editors" here surely would not be any fun to be stuck in an elevator with, regardless of the amount of Vaseline present. I think I'll leave the butchered version intact as a testament to Showgirls, until someone else puts it out of its misery.
(update conflict as the above was being posted; added more below)
UPDATE 2: Your appalling lack of Pythonesque sensibilities doesn't excuse your lack of pop culture awareness; Sheryl Crow Topped the UK LP chart when that song hit the Top 10. Anyhow if our standard is going to be "do people in Kenya know about it?", we may as well delete anything referring to our wealthy Western lifestyles and add more articles on how to wrangle wildebeest.
Someone removed "Cyclists" as a category, with the edit comment "removed unneeded cat". Just because Armstrong is an American cyclist means he's not a cyclist? Shouldn't all cyclists be in the cyclists category, and only American cyclists in the American cyclists category? I understand that "American cyclists" is a subcat of cyclists, but so what?
I'm adding it back, and would appreciate an explanation if it is removed again. -- Serge 20:56, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
I think this paragraph should be mostly moved down to an "awards" section. The reason is that most of these listed are corporate (American corporate) "awards" rather than meaningful neutral awards. It represents a particularly American corporate POV to highlight the successes of their own prized and invested athletes, and likewise it seems like its advertising here. - SV| t 18:05, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
"competing in seniors' competitions from the age of 16"—from what age did he compete in juniors' competitions? JHCC (talk) 19:22, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
I'm deleting this because of its inaccuracies. Pro cyclists don't necessarily race in several major races because of a cultural attitude, but rather because it's part of their job. Other European cyclists concentrate solely on the Tour as well, and race as little, or less than Armstrong does. His rivals all concentrate purely on the Tour de France, so I don't see this as a reason for success... at least not in recent years. And he raced in other major events regularily during his Tour de France winning seasons. Peoplesunionpro 13:15, July 26, 2005 (UTC)
The current article fails to reflect the changes in Armstrong's physique that played were particularly suited to winning the Tour de France. As a result of the cancer treatment, Armstrong lost a significant amount of muscle (as a pro-cyclist he had very low body fat, so weight lost through treatment was almost entirely muscle) and was able to change his riding style from a more powerful rider, to one that relied on high cadence. This was significant as it is more suited to the Tour's hill stages, where large gears make it difficult to attack or defend attacks. Armstrong's racing weight is approximately 19 pounds lighter than before the cancer. An article in Bicycling Australia (July/August 2005) quotes Armstrong as saying, "When I came back I began racing at almost 30 pounds less than before the treatments. I am a pretty willful guy, but I never would have had the self-dicipline to loose 30 pounds".
I would like to see a source reference for some of the claims in this paragraph:
While Armstrong's physical attributes may be "super" compared to the average person, and how do they compare to the average Tour rider? That a world class athlete has above average physical attributes from genes should be no surprise to anyone. What might be significant is how those attributes compare to other world class athletes, not to the norm.
If the source of this is the Discovery Channel or CNN story on him, I thought I heard the doctor say "only" "1 in 100 Americans" has the same physical attributes as Armstrong. By my calculations, that's not just a "few thousand people in the United States", but almost three million. -- Serge 18:29, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
However, whether his competitors were similarly physically gifted is not known, but the fact that his strongest competitors lost only a handful of minutes in over 2500 miles of racing indicates to some that any advantage could not be very significant.
How unique? Evidently able to win the TdF from the Twilight Zone: "high gear and brute strength. Armstrong maintained a high speed even..." Yes? Trekphiler 22:33, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
I'm translating this page for Wikipedia Chinese Version, and I cannot understand the term "10/2" line in the sentence "The date of October 2 was eventually commemorated by Armstrong and Nike, through the "10 / 2" line of merchandise, of which part of the proceeds would go to the Lance Armstrong Foundation, which was founded in 1997. " Help, Thanks. 谢谢! -- 60.232.175.144 15:00, 28 July 2005 (UTC) Truth
Thanks. Actually it's the term ---"10 / 2" line of merchandise--- bothering me.-- 60.232.175.144 21:33, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Lance Armstrong/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.
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*has some unsourced statements
plange
00:45, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
Who rated it GA? It is not a good article. Happily ever after 23:38, 25 September 2006 (UTC) == Comments on 3 April 2009 ==
Sums up his career nicely. I don't know if the awards should be listed here... At the end, it says that Armstrong returned later, without mentioning whén he returned.
Compared to the rest of the article, this is too long.
Nice!
I think this should be part of the post-cycling career.
I don't think might be better directly after Tour de France success, to keep all cycling-related things close to each other.
His Amateur cycling and triathlon years results should be placed first, and in chronological order. Team names are not needed here. Race format should be different, I think, but there is no standard for this yet.
The format makes the list hard to read. The list seems to be in random order.
Should be moved to wikiquote.
These should be cleaned: some should be turned into references (the story about his stolen bike, the USA TODAY piece), others should just be removed (the youtube link, the video of Armstrong at Aspen). This is my quick review for the version of 3 April 2009! -- EdgeNavidad ( talk) 12:36, 3 April 2009 (UTC) |
Last edited at 12:36, 3 April 2009 (UTC). Substituted at 19:59, 2 May 2016 (UTC)