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This seems to be mostly about accent. I was looking for a description of the non-standard usage of 'while' (as in "I'll be there ten while six tomorrow"), which I've heard from people in Bolton, Accrington and older Mancunians. I'd also like further elaboration on the "our Dave/our Susan/our kid" usage. I'm just not confident in describing grammatical terms to insert these myself.
I am curious to know why some of the words I heard used by older Lancastrians when i was a child are similar to German words. for example, peoploe would say "How bist?" meaning how are you- Also the word skriking_ (how it was pronounced) was used to describe crying- German word is almost the same. Any responses?
Most dialects are earlier forms of English. If you go back far enough, English and German were one language. There are remnants of this link in the old dialects. The thou bist forms that you mentioned are also quite similar to the Dutch and Frisian equivalents.
Even today, some features of Scottish speech are very similar to modern German. For example, the word ken for to know. Find is pronounced the same way in German and in Scots. The Scots light is pronounced the same way as the German equivalent licht. Scots sometimes refer to shoes the same way Germans would do: shuehen (normally spelled "shoon" in dialectal writings).
Hope that helps. Epa101 ( talk) 18:57, 22 February 2009 (UTC)
I didnt know about 'bist' being used in Lancashire but I know 'bist' and 'ich' were used until very recently by old people in certain parts of the West Country. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.155.223.173 ( talk) 12:48, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
Although people from St Helens and Widnes originally spoke with a Lancashire accent eg. Johnny Vegas, these days younger generations can be found with a Scouse accent but some older generations still have the Lancashire accent
I don't think this is true at all. Of course, it's a well known fact about the small influx of Liverpudlians settling in these towns, but it doesn't necessarily infer the younger generations of native Widnesians and St Heleners speak with a scouse accent. An index of metals ( talk) 09:13, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
I have to take issue with Alan Crosby. I re-wrote for clarification. The border is further down the trainline between St Helens and Rainhill. Anyone local knows that Scousers start properly at Rainhill although more and more are moving to St Helens. I don't know about Widnes. 555JERK ( talk) 12:46, 17 November 2009 (UTC)
"In south Lancashire, speech is generally more refined, although Wigan and Leigh are possibly the last bastions of the traditional dialect" Speech is more refined - what does that mean? What is you definition of a "refined" accent? This is blatantly POV and needs changing.
"There are also some Midlands features that become apparent, such as a lack of ng coalescence (therefore, singer rhymes with finger)." Doesn't singer always rhyme with finger wherever you come from? How would you pronounce them differently?
"Accrington in rural eastern Lancashire" There's nothing very rural about Accrington as far as I can see.
"...a lorra laughs". This is now confined to the more rural parts of Lancashire. So Cilla Black comes from rural Lancashire does she?
This article really does need some proper referencing to reliable souces. Richerman ( talk) 10:56, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
You're probably right on both counts; I think it should be NG in capitals, so I'll alter that. I've added a reference in for the early 20th century films that included Lancs dialect, as that was from the Fred Holcroft book. Too many pop-culture references is bad in a Wikipedia article, so that part may need to be cleaned up soon. Epa101 ( talk) 10:09, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
I have removed the following to the talk page. Apart from the fact that it is poorly written, with numerous errors in capital letters and spelling, it is completely unsourced, in places of dubious veracity, and reads like a (poorly written) personal essay. Another editor has requested help from WikiProject Greater Manchester and WikiProject Lancashire and Cumbria in trying to sort this section out. Once this has been done, what is left can be reinserted into the article. Skinsmoke ( talk) 00:33, 29 October 2012 (UTC)
Despite much of the old Lancashire Dialect's slang being far less common for example "brock" meaning badger or "Rappet" meaning rabbit or even "Yedwarch" meaning Headache, there are still several slang words or pronounciations of official English words that vary from the way English is most commonly spoken. The reason for such a unique accent is primarily due to the county's historic settlement by Norsemen in the early middle ages and mass Irish immigration in the Victorian era.
Examples include:
"Bin" meaning been; an example of this in a sentance would be "Ah've bin t' shop" or simply just "bin shop" meaning "One has just visited a store"
"Gob" coming diarectly from Irish Gaelic meaning mouth; The word is common also in other British accents, and the sweet(candy) Gobstopper (Jawbreaker to North Americans) takes its name from this as it quite literally prevents a person's mouth from functioning properly. "Stoppin' yer Gob"
"Codswallop" meaning rubbish, used for example "you're talking a load rubbish" would be "yer speakin codswallop".
The term codswallop supposedly takes it's name from a water company in Liverpool (named cods), which had glass stoppers in the top of bottles they produced which children would break open bottles to get in order to use as marbles. These glass stoppers would be called "cods" (taking there name from the manufacturer) and children would "wallop" (meaning to hit or throw) these "cods" thus creating the term "cods-wallop" how the term got its current meaning is unclear so maybe this tale is just a load of "codswallop" itself.
"Nowt" meaning nothing. Dispite many thinking the lancashire dialect is a dialect of simpletons this word proves that this is far from the case as it comes directly from the Latin word "Nought" meaning the number zero or nothing.
"owt" meaning anything, likely first said as it's similar to "nowt" but has a positive meaning.
The words "who", "us" and "give" are often used differently to there correct meanings. "who" meaning "she", "us" is used to said "I" or "me" and "give" is used often as "gave". For example "who give us it" would mean "She gave me it".
I started this article some years ago, and it came up on my watchlist recently. It's interesting to learn that this article has been classified as High-Importance in the county projects.
I may take some criticism for the quality of this article. I admit that it's not great. It's certainly not up to the standard of other accent articles such as Cockney, Welsh English or Yorkshire dialect. I have ordered volume 1 of Graham Shorrock's A Grammar of the Dialect of the Bolton Area for £43 (ridiculous but it's not available in any local libraries). Therefore, I should be able to make some improvements to this article soon and introduce some comments about the modern Lancashire accent. However, this will be focussed on Bolton.
What else can be done to improve the article? I'm not sure. Lancashire still has a distinct accent, but academics have cruelly neglected it. Are there any other modern linguistic studies of Lancastrian speech? (Defining Lancashire broadly here) In developing this article, I leaned heavily on the Survey of English Dialects, but this completely neglects south Lancashire and I imagine that the speech described in it would seem very countrified to young Lancastrians today. For example, virtually every site in Lancs in the SED had [a:] for MOUTH. How many people west of the Pennines say that now? It's become confined to the Sheffield area.
Here are my only other suggestions:
Does anyone else have any good modern sources to improve this article? Epa101 ( talk) 13:33, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
That's interesting. Shorrock lists the traditional Bolton MOUTH vowel as [ɛ:] or sometimes [æ:]. In my observations, I associate Lancastrians more with diphthongs such as [ɐʏ], as in this engineer from Oldham. Epa101 ( talk) 15:19, 3 November 2012 (UTC)
I ought to admit that I am actually from (west) Yorkshire. I have never lived in Lancashire, but I have always been interested in dialect and I think that Lancashire is an interesting area linguistically. To add to the discussion about diversity, I'll add that multiple pronunciations can be found in one town as well. For example, Shorrock says that "no" might be pronounced in any one of [nɛ: nɜʏ næ: no:] in the Bolton area. If every large town in Lancashire is like this, then the article can't realistically cover everything. Epa101 ( talk) 12:36, 4 November 2012 (UTC)
P.S. I have a suggestion. I might add a new section entitled "Shorrock's grammar of the Bolton dialect", and list the vowels and consonants in his book (complete with examples in words). If I start editing the existing material, it's going to get messy with regular Bolton-specific sentences. Epa101 ( talk) 12:39, 4 November 2012 (UTC)
I'm writing to inform everyone that it'll be a while before I add any material from Shorrocks to this article. My home internet router has broken. Once it's fixed, I'll start the hard work of updating the article. Epa101 ( talk) 12:36, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
And I'm back. After reading (in parts) Shorrocks's two parts on the Bolton dialect, I think that the best way to improve this article would be to add information on dialect grammar. He says that one of the main conclusions of his book is that non-standard grammar has been overlooked in dialectology. In terms of phonetics, he goes into fantastic detail on this, but it would be very difficult to add any of this to the article. He gives the traditional dialect form, the more modified "Northern Regional Standard" form and everything inbetween. Epa101 ( talk) 23:30, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
What's not mentioned but what appears to be very common amongst Lancashire people from my experience is the pronunciation of the word "about" as roughly homophonous to "aboat", just like Scottish, Northern Irish, or Canadian accents. I don't know what the proper IPA explanation is, and I'm not sure exactly what the geographic distribution is of this phenomenon, but I feel someone who's better qualified than me to explain it should add it. 90.216.122.233 ( talk) 09:51, 2 January 2015 (UTC)
I think the article needs to specify when using the IPA symbol "u", if it should be pronounced as in standard English (i.e. not really u in terms of IPA), or most other European languages, the close back rounded vowel. –– ♫ Mara ♫ 20:58, 5 April 2015 (UTC)
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I created this article back in 2007. Looking at it now, I feel rather disappointed with it. I have become much more knowledgeable about dialects in the years since I started this article, but there has been precious little research into Lancashire dialects since the advent of sociolinguistics, and the research that was done in the past is dated.
Here's what I suggest:
As this would involve comprehensive change, I thought that I should post my plan here first. Please let me have your comments. I'll wait a fortnight before acting. Epa101 ( talk) 23:06, 1 January 2020 (UTC)
See my sandbox: User:Epa101/sandbox. Comments welcome before I put it on the real article here. Epa101 ( talk) 23:32, 11 January 2020 (UTC)
Very good of you, @ Koncorde:. I have added a section on modern research now. Tomorrow, I'd like to tidy up the AJ Ellis section a bit. Then might be a good time for feedback. Epa101 ( talk) 13:49, 19 January 2020 (UTC) Actually, there is something that I can ask you now. What do you think of the section at the end, "In popular culture"? I am concerned that there are few references in this section and some of the examples given are of celebrities who are not the best examples of the dialect. Something like the Mike Leigh film Peterloo seems good example as it was deliberately done in Lancashire dialect, but many of the other cases are just actors who happen to have a few Lancastrian pronunciations. My instinct is to trim it down a lot. What do you think? Epa101 ( talk) 13:54, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion:
You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 19:24, 7 April 2023 (UTC)
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This seems to be mostly about accent. I was looking for a description of the non-standard usage of 'while' (as in "I'll be there ten while six tomorrow"), which I've heard from people in Bolton, Accrington and older Mancunians. I'd also like further elaboration on the "our Dave/our Susan/our kid" usage. I'm just not confident in describing grammatical terms to insert these myself.
I am curious to know why some of the words I heard used by older Lancastrians when i was a child are similar to German words. for example, peoploe would say "How bist?" meaning how are you- Also the word skriking_ (how it was pronounced) was used to describe crying- German word is almost the same. Any responses?
Most dialects are earlier forms of English. If you go back far enough, English and German were one language. There are remnants of this link in the old dialects. The thou bist forms that you mentioned are also quite similar to the Dutch and Frisian equivalents.
Even today, some features of Scottish speech are very similar to modern German. For example, the word ken for to know. Find is pronounced the same way in German and in Scots. The Scots light is pronounced the same way as the German equivalent licht. Scots sometimes refer to shoes the same way Germans would do: shuehen (normally spelled "shoon" in dialectal writings).
Hope that helps. Epa101 ( talk) 18:57, 22 February 2009 (UTC)
I didnt know about 'bist' being used in Lancashire but I know 'bist' and 'ich' were used until very recently by old people in certain parts of the West Country. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.155.223.173 ( talk) 12:48, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
Although people from St Helens and Widnes originally spoke with a Lancashire accent eg. Johnny Vegas, these days younger generations can be found with a Scouse accent but some older generations still have the Lancashire accent
I don't think this is true at all. Of course, it's a well known fact about the small influx of Liverpudlians settling in these towns, but it doesn't necessarily infer the younger generations of native Widnesians and St Heleners speak with a scouse accent. An index of metals ( talk) 09:13, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
I have to take issue with Alan Crosby. I re-wrote for clarification. The border is further down the trainline between St Helens and Rainhill. Anyone local knows that Scousers start properly at Rainhill although more and more are moving to St Helens. I don't know about Widnes. 555JERK ( talk) 12:46, 17 November 2009 (UTC)
"In south Lancashire, speech is generally more refined, although Wigan and Leigh are possibly the last bastions of the traditional dialect" Speech is more refined - what does that mean? What is you definition of a "refined" accent? This is blatantly POV and needs changing.
"There are also some Midlands features that become apparent, such as a lack of ng coalescence (therefore, singer rhymes with finger)." Doesn't singer always rhyme with finger wherever you come from? How would you pronounce them differently?
"Accrington in rural eastern Lancashire" There's nothing very rural about Accrington as far as I can see.
"...a lorra laughs". This is now confined to the more rural parts of Lancashire. So Cilla Black comes from rural Lancashire does she?
This article really does need some proper referencing to reliable souces. Richerman ( talk) 10:56, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
You're probably right on both counts; I think it should be NG in capitals, so I'll alter that. I've added a reference in for the early 20th century films that included Lancs dialect, as that was from the Fred Holcroft book. Too many pop-culture references is bad in a Wikipedia article, so that part may need to be cleaned up soon. Epa101 ( talk) 10:09, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
I have removed the following to the talk page. Apart from the fact that it is poorly written, with numerous errors in capital letters and spelling, it is completely unsourced, in places of dubious veracity, and reads like a (poorly written) personal essay. Another editor has requested help from WikiProject Greater Manchester and WikiProject Lancashire and Cumbria in trying to sort this section out. Once this has been done, what is left can be reinserted into the article. Skinsmoke ( talk) 00:33, 29 October 2012 (UTC)
Despite much of the old Lancashire Dialect's slang being far less common for example "brock" meaning badger or "Rappet" meaning rabbit or even "Yedwarch" meaning Headache, there are still several slang words or pronounciations of official English words that vary from the way English is most commonly spoken. The reason for such a unique accent is primarily due to the county's historic settlement by Norsemen in the early middle ages and mass Irish immigration in the Victorian era.
Examples include:
"Bin" meaning been; an example of this in a sentance would be "Ah've bin t' shop" or simply just "bin shop" meaning "One has just visited a store"
"Gob" coming diarectly from Irish Gaelic meaning mouth; The word is common also in other British accents, and the sweet(candy) Gobstopper (Jawbreaker to North Americans) takes its name from this as it quite literally prevents a person's mouth from functioning properly. "Stoppin' yer Gob"
"Codswallop" meaning rubbish, used for example "you're talking a load rubbish" would be "yer speakin codswallop".
The term codswallop supposedly takes it's name from a water company in Liverpool (named cods), which had glass stoppers in the top of bottles they produced which children would break open bottles to get in order to use as marbles. These glass stoppers would be called "cods" (taking there name from the manufacturer) and children would "wallop" (meaning to hit or throw) these "cods" thus creating the term "cods-wallop" how the term got its current meaning is unclear so maybe this tale is just a load of "codswallop" itself.
"Nowt" meaning nothing. Dispite many thinking the lancashire dialect is a dialect of simpletons this word proves that this is far from the case as it comes directly from the Latin word "Nought" meaning the number zero or nothing.
"owt" meaning anything, likely first said as it's similar to "nowt" but has a positive meaning.
The words "who", "us" and "give" are often used differently to there correct meanings. "who" meaning "she", "us" is used to said "I" or "me" and "give" is used often as "gave". For example "who give us it" would mean "She gave me it".
I started this article some years ago, and it came up on my watchlist recently. It's interesting to learn that this article has been classified as High-Importance in the county projects.
I may take some criticism for the quality of this article. I admit that it's not great. It's certainly not up to the standard of other accent articles such as Cockney, Welsh English or Yorkshire dialect. I have ordered volume 1 of Graham Shorrock's A Grammar of the Dialect of the Bolton Area for £43 (ridiculous but it's not available in any local libraries). Therefore, I should be able to make some improvements to this article soon and introduce some comments about the modern Lancashire accent. However, this will be focussed on Bolton.
What else can be done to improve the article? I'm not sure. Lancashire still has a distinct accent, but academics have cruelly neglected it. Are there any other modern linguistic studies of Lancastrian speech? (Defining Lancashire broadly here) In developing this article, I leaned heavily on the Survey of English Dialects, but this completely neglects south Lancashire and I imagine that the speech described in it would seem very countrified to young Lancastrians today. For example, virtually every site in Lancs in the SED had [a:] for MOUTH. How many people west of the Pennines say that now? It's become confined to the Sheffield area.
Here are my only other suggestions:
Does anyone else have any good modern sources to improve this article? Epa101 ( talk) 13:33, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
That's interesting. Shorrock lists the traditional Bolton MOUTH vowel as [ɛ:] or sometimes [æ:]. In my observations, I associate Lancastrians more with diphthongs such as [ɐʏ], as in this engineer from Oldham. Epa101 ( talk) 15:19, 3 November 2012 (UTC)
I ought to admit that I am actually from (west) Yorkshire. I have never lived in Lancashire, but I have always been interested in dialect and I think that Lancashire is an interesting area linguistically. To add to the discussion about diversity, I'll add that multiple pronunciations can be found in one town as well. For example, Shorrock says that "no" might be pronounced in any one of [nɛ: nɜʏ næ: no:] in the Bolton area. If every large town in Lancashire is like this, then the article can't realistically cover everything. Epa101 ( talk) 12:36, 4 November 2012 (UTC)
P.S. I have a suggestion. I might add a new section entitled "Shorrock's grammar of the Bolton dialect", and list the vowels and consonants in his book (complete with examples in words). If I start editing the existing material, it's going to get messy with regular Bolton-specific sentences. Epa101 ( talk) 12:39, 4 November 2012 (UTC)
I'm writing to inform everyone that it'll be a while before I add any material from Shorrocks to this article. My home internet router has broken. Once it's fixed, I'll start the hard work of updating the article. Epa101 ( talk) 12:36, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
And I'm back. After reading (in parts) Shorrocks's two parts on the Bolton dialect, I think that the best way to improve this article would be to add information on dialect grammar. He says that one of the main conclusions of his book is that non-standard grammar has been overlooked in dialectology. In terms of phonetics, he goes into fantastic detail on this, but it would be very difficult to add any of this to the article. He gives the traditional dialect form, the more modified "Northern Regional Standard" form and everything inbetween. Epa101 ( talk) 23:30, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
What's not mentioned but what appears to be very common amongst Lancashire people from my experience is the pronunciation of the word "about" as roughly homophonous to "aboat", just like Scottish, Northern Irish, or Canadian accents. I don't know what the proper IPA explanation is, and I'm not sure exactly what the geographic distribution is of this phenomenon, but I feel someone who's better qualified than me to explain it should add it. 90.216.122.233 ( talk) 09:51, 2 January 2015 (UTC)
I think the article needs to specify when using the IPA symbol "u", if it should be pronounced as in standard English (i.e. not really u in terms of IPA), or most other European languages, the close back rounded vowel. –– ♫ Mara ♫ 20:58, 5 April 2015 (UTC)
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Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 16:22, 21 March 2016 (UTC)
Hello,
this article covers both the dialect and the mixture of the standard language and the dialect. Kind regards,
Sarcelles ( talk) 09:05, 22 August 2016 (UTC)
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I created this article back in 2007. Looking at it now, I feel rather disappointed with it. I have become much more knowledgeable about dialects in the years since I started this article, but there has been precious little research into Lancashire dialects since the advent of sociolinguistics, and the research that was done in the past is dated.
Here's what I suggest:
As this would involve comprehensive change, I thought that I should post my plan here first. Please let me have your comments. I'll wait a fortnight before acting. Epa101 ( talk) 23:06, 1 January 2020 (UTC)
See my sandbox: User:Epa101/sandbox. Comments welcome before I put it on the real article here. Epa101 ( talk) 23:32, 11 January 2020 (UTC)
Very good of you, @ Koncorde:. I have added a section on modern research now. Tomorrow, I'd like to tidy up the AJ Ellis section a bit. Then might be a good time for feedback. Epa101 ( talk) 13:49, 19 January 2020 (UTC) Actually, there is something that I can ask you now. What do you think of the section at the end, "In popular culture"? I am concerned that there are few references in this section and some of the examples given are of celebrities who are not the best examples of the dialect. Something like the Mike Leigh film Peterloo seems good example as it was deliberately done in Lancashire dialect, but many of the other cases are just actors who happen to have a few Lancastrian pronunciations. My instinct is to trim it down a lot. What do you think? Epa101 ( talk) 13:54, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion:
You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 19:24, 7 April 2023 (UTC)