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Aura pour devise immortelle : Le Roi, la Loi, la Liberté ! Aura pour devise immortelle : Le Roi, la Loi, la Liberté ! Le Roi, la Loi, la Liberté ! Le Roi, la Loi, la Liberté !
at the end? the article only mentions Aura pour devise immortelle : Le Roi, la Loi, la Liberté ! (3X)
The french and english text are incorrect
For King, for Freedom, and for Law? = translation from the Dutch lyrics? I think Voor Vorst, voor Vrijheid en voor recht should be translated as " for king, for freedom and for justice " What do you think?
See
Talk:Belgium#The Brabançonne. —
SomeHuman 2007-06-05 00:06 (UTC)
The former became archived:
Talk:Belgium/Archive_3#The_Brabançonne. As no further reactions came, there has not been any support for a continued violation of the WP article naming convention, which does not allow the name to start with a definite article that is not absolutely necessary. Note that my archived comment mentioned "Das Lied von Brabant" as a name in German, but this appears to be an erroneous 'translation' like one may occasionally encounter "The Song of Brabant" in English. Whatever may have been in mind when the 'Brabançonne' was created as a national anthem, it had not been some old song of e.g. the Duchy of Brabant, its original lyrics did not mention Brabant, and that area went far into the Netherlands from which Belgium was being separated. Perhaps the patriotic author still hoped to conquer that part for Belgium - far from unthinkable during te 1830 revolution. The Dutch and the German language Wikipedias and the now available
German text on the official site of Belgium, have "Brabançonne".
I put a footnote in the article, that explains to readers of English how the French, German, and Dutch languages use 'Brabançonne' with a gender that, together, does not allow an implied 'song'. It nevertheless remains unclear which substantive that in French and German is of female
grammatical gender and in Dutch of male gender, may fit, or how else these genders became attached to the anthem name 'Brabançonne'. For speakers of either language, the usage of a wrong gender is as immediately recognized as referring to some Jack by 'she' in English. (There are some regional differences in Dutch, but not for the neutre gender, which must be applied to "lied", 'song'). This footnote also exemplifies the definite article not to be a fixed part of the actual name of the anthem.
The definite article is not felt to be an intrinsic part of the name: For instance, Belgians might express not to like some new lyrics to become highly patriotic, by saying one does not want another Brabançonne, ("une autre Brabançonne", "nog een Brabançonne", etc.). Used in a sentence, the definite article in French, Dutch and German is not capitalized, which means it is not considered part of the name. [Dutch people, please do not start about "T/the" Netherlands or "les Pays-Bas", at present I found even those WP article titles as "
Netherlands" and
fr:Pays-Bas without a definite article, ;-) or :-( as you please - and I had nothing to do with that.]
▲
SomeHuman 2011-08-28 15:28-21:28 (UTC)
I noticed in the lyric section, that the unoffical translations seem to be overlapping the images. Someone wanna fix it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.164.197.120 ( talk) 01:41, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
1., we severly need to clean this up. 2., restore the article before my edit, if you want. 3., if you do, than: GIVE AN ACCURATE TRANSLATION. How I know it isn't accurate, is that the first line should read in English: "Oh Belgium, Oh mother darling." "ô Belgique, ô mère chérie."
VTAbenakiMD ( talk) 22:00, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
It would appear that the Brabançonne was originally written in French. As such, wouldn't it make sense to give the French version first? john k ( talk) 19:27, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
With apologies to Picapia and predecessor(s), I've revised both of the English translations, which had omissions and inaccuracies as well as sometimes not being "English" - e.g. "the Freedom" (1860 version).
To translate "la Loi" as "Justice" (formerly in the translation of the current French version) is surely wrong. Outside a religious context, "la Loi" means "the Law" (as in "against the law"). Here it appears to signify a written constitution and codified laws, centrally (for Belgium then and now) the Napoleonic code - in contrast with arbitrary rule (l'arbitraire), as was debated in Europe at the time. Thus the German text has "Gesetz" (statute). The idea seems to be that of national and individual liberty under constitutional monarchy. If the committees had wanted to refer to "Justice" ("la Justice"), they surely would have done so.
But the two translations still don't succeed, in my own view. I just can't get them into plausible English. That may be because the French is already implausible - what may have seemed fine to committees a century or so ago doesn't (to my ear) survive echoes of the crowd scenes in Monty Python's Life of Brian.
Yet translation doesn't seem to be the main problem with this article. Its French and German Wikipedia equivalents (I can't read Dutch) show that:
So, would someone who knows the topic like to undertake a thorough revision? Sources are in the other articles. -- Wikiain ( talk) 21:05, 24 December 2010 (UTC)
I have now re-translated all three of the French versions of the song and the German version, and tinkered with the Dutch. (I don't know any Walloon, though so far as I can see the Walloon version is substantially different from all of the other versions.) It will be seen that these are literal translations, with no poetic aim. If anybody desires to create poetic versions, I suggest that this be done separately. As to the rest of the article, my suggestions are above. -- Wikiain ( talk) 23:49, 10 January 2011 (UTC)
CalicoCatLover: Sorry to do this to your work, but I am reverting your recent additions, for the following reasons:
The latitude sun casting light on your ways, And fearlessly stares you in the future. You mint your prince, His love flows from you, His hand guides you to the glory job.
User 69.160.120.125: HU12 has reverted your additional recording, without a reason. I'm sure you added it in best faith, but to my ear it is really not as good as the others already there. -- Wikiain ( talk) 22:54, 1 August 2011 (UTC)
On 6 July user 96.25.192.54 changes some of the references to the "Dutch" version to "Flemish", that being actually the language spoken in northern Belgium. That is of course correct about the language spoken. However, it doesn't follow that this text must be in Flemish and not Dutch. WP:fr, WP:ne and WP:de all refer to it as being in Dutch. So does the cover of the Helmut Lotti trilingual CD < http://www.arquebusiers.be/brabanconne.htm> Wikiain ( talk) 01:30, 6 July 2012 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: page moved. ( non-admin closure) — Sam Sailor 06:03, 15 January 2017 (UTC)
Brabançonne →
La Brabançonne – This is the complete title of this work, see the sheet music, the poster in the article and the Wikisource text.
The Evil IP address (
talk)
18:35, 7 January 2017 (UTC)
If Belgium has a queen in charge, do the lyrics change? – Illegitimate Barrister ( talk • contribs), 04:58, 13 October 2017 (UTC)
Both slogans obey the Rule of Three and both contain the word "liberty". But one is a royalist slogan of privileged Belgians and the other a republican slogan of people who hate hierarchy. The parallel is less than obvious. If somebody wants to source a claim that there's a parallel, fine. Otherwise, I'm gonna delete this. — Isaac Rabinovitch ( talk) 19:35, 2 July 2021 (UTC)
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||
|
Aura pour devise immortelle : Le Roi, la Loi, la Liberté ! Aura pour devise immortelle : Le Roi, la Loi, la Liberté ! Le Roi, la Loi, la Liberté ! Le Roi, la Loi, la Liberté !
at the end? the article only mentions Aura pour devise immortelle : Le Roi, la Loi, la Liberté ! (3X)
The french and english text are incorrect
For King, for Freedom, and for Law? = translation from the Dutch lyrics? I think Voor Vorst, voor Vrijheid en voor recht should be translated as " for king, for freedom and for justice " What do you think?
See
Talk:Belgium#The Brabançonne. —
SomeHuman 2007-06-05 00:06 (UTC)
The former became archived:
Talk:Belgium/Archive_3#The_Brabançonne. As no further reactions came, there has not been any support for a continued violation of the WP article naming convention, which does not allow the name to start with a definite article that is not absolutely necessary. Note that my archived comment mentioned "Das Lied von Brabant" as a name in German, but this appears to be an erroneous 'translation' like one may occasionally encounter "The Song of Brabant" in English. Whatever may have been in mind when the 'Brabançonne' was created as a national anthem, it had not been some old song of e.g. the Duchy of Brabant, its original lyrics did not mention Brabant, and that area went far into the Netherlands from which Belgium was being separated. Perhaps the patriotic author still hoped to conquer that part for Belgium - far from unthinkable during te 1830 revolution. The Dutch and the German language Wikipedias and the now available
German text on the official site of Belgium, have "Brabançonne".
I put a footnote in the article, that explains to readers of English how the French, German, and Dutch languages use 'Brabançonne' with a gender that, together, does not allow an implied 'song'. It nevertheless remains unclear which substantive that in French and German is of female
grammatical gender and in Dutch of male gender, may fit, or how else these genders became attached to the anthem name 'Brabançonne'. For speakers of either language, the usage of a wrong gender is as immediately recognized as referring to some Jack by 'she' in English. (There are some regional differences in Dutch, but not for the neutre gender, which must be applied to "lied", 'song'). This footnote also exemplifies the definite article not to be a fixed part of the actual name of the anthem.
The definite article is not felt to be an intrinsic part of the name: For instance, Belgians might express not to like some new lyrics to become highly patriotic, by saying one does not want another Brabançonne, ("une autre Brabançonne", "nog een Brabançonne", etc.). Used in a sentence, the definite article in French, Dutch and German is not capitalized, which means it is not considered part of the name. [Dutch people, please do not start about "T/the" Netherlands or "les Pays-Bas", at present I found even those WP article titles as "
Netherlands" and
fr:Pays-Bas without a definite article, ;-) or :-( as you please - and I had nothing to do with that.]
▲
SomeHuman 2011-08-28 15:28-21:28 (UTC)
I noticed in the lyric section, that the unoffical translations seem to be overlapping the images. Someone wanna fix it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.164.197.120 ( talk) 01:41, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
1., we severly need to clean this up. 2., restore the article before my edit, if you want. 3., if you do, than: GIVE AN ACCURATE TRANSLATION. How I know it isn't accurate, is that the first line should read in English: "Oh Belgium, Oh mother darling." "ô Belgique, ô mère chérie."
VTAbenakiMD ( talk) 22:00, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
It would appear that the Brabançonne was originally written in French. As such, wouldn't it make sense to give the French version first? john k ( talk) 19:27, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
With apologies to Picapia and predecessor(s), I've revised both of the English translations, which had omissions and inaccuracies as well as sometimes not being "English" - e.g. "the Freedom" (1860 version).
To translate "la Loi" as "Justice" (formerly in the translation of the current French version) is surely wrong. Outside a religious context, "la Loi" means "the Law" (as in "against the law"). Here it appears to signify a written constitution and codified laws, centrally (for Belgium then and now) the Napoleonic code - in contrast with arbitrary rule (l'arbitraire), as was debated in Europe at the time. Thus the German text has "Gesetz" (statute). The idea seems to be that of national and individual liberty under constitutional monarchy. If the committees had wanted to refer to "Justice" ("la Justice"), they surely would have done so.
But the two translations still don't succeed, in my own view. I just can't get them into plausible English. That may be because the French is already implausible - what may have seemed fine to committees a century or so ago doesn't (to my ear) survive echoes of the crowd scenes in Monty Python's Life of Brian.
Yet translation doesn't seem to be the main problem with this article. Its French and German Wikipedia equivalents (I can't read Dutch) show that:
So, would someone who knows the topic like to undertake a thorough revision? Sources are in the other articles. -- Wikiain ( talk) 21:05, 24 December 2010 (UTC)
I have now re-translated all three of the French versions of the song and the German version, and tinkered with the Dutch. (I don't know any Walloon, though so far as I can see the Walloon version is substantially different from all of the other versions.) It will be seen that these are literal translations, with no poetic aim. If anybody desires to create poetic versions, I suggest that this be done separately. As to the rest of the article, my suggestions are above. -- Wikiain ( talk) 23:49, 10 January 2011 (UTC)
CalicoCatLover: Sorry to do this to your work, but I am reverting your recent additions, for the following reasons:
The latitude sun casting light on your ways, And fearlessly stares you in the future. You mint your prince, His love flows from you, His hand guides you to the glory job.
User 69.160.120.125: HU12 has reverted your additional recording, without a reason. I'm sure you added it in best faith, but to my ear it is really not as good as the others already there. -- Wikiain ( talk) 22:54, 1 August 2011 (UTC)
On 6 July user 96.25.192.54 changes some of the references to the "Dutch" version to "Flemish", that being actually the language spoken in northern Belgium. That is of course correct about the language spoken. However, it doesn't follow that this text must be in Flemish and not Dutch. WP:fr, WP:ne and WP:de all refer to it as being in Dutch. So does the cover of the Helmut Lotti trilingual CD < http://www.arquebusiers.be/brabanconne.htm> Wikiain ( talk) 01:30, 6 July 2012 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: page moved. ( non-admin closure) — Sam Sailor 06:03, 15 January 2017 (UTC)
Brabançonne →
La Brabançonne – This is the complete title of this work, see the sheet music, the poster in the article and the Wikisource text.
The Evil IP address (
talk)
18:35, 7 January 2017 (UTC)
If Belgium has a queen in charge, do the lyrics change? – Illegitimate Barrister ( talk • contribs), 04:58, 13 October 2017 (UTC)
Both slogans obey the Rule of Three and both contain the word "liberty". But one is a royalist slogan of privileged Belgians and the other a republican slogan of people who hate hierarchy. The parallel is less than obvious. If somebody wants to source a claim that there's a parallel, fine. Otherwise, I'm gonna delete this. — Isaac Rabinovitch ( talk) 19:35, 2 July 2021 (UTC)