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Does the article actually, really, try to imply that LSD is a "soft" drug? It compares LSD to "harder" drugs such as "alcohol, cocaine and heroin". First, let me just say, that of course, when alcohol is used in excess it is harmful...but to place it in the same category as cocaine and heroine!!! Further, to imply that alcohol is a "harder" drug than LSD is simply ludicrous. What definition of "hard" are we talking about here? The article further does not just suggest but STATES, with supposed authority, that unlike "alcohol, cocaine and heroin", LSD is NOT an escape from reality. What trip were the writers of this article on when they suggest that alcohol is more of an escape from reality than LSD? Please correct me if I'm wrong, so that next time I consider having a glass of wine with dinner with my girlfriend, I'll suggest we do something "softer" and drop acid instead...acid in moderation of course. Loomis51 22:37, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
With respect to the benefits of LSD, though they may exist, I'm unconvinced that it would be a good idea to recommend use of LSD to the uninitiated. Its potential for serious psychological and even psychiatric long term trauma is far too great. I personally know of numerous incidences of the harm LSD can cause. With regard to a drug's addictive qualities, I believe a serious distinction should be introduced: Addiction can be "physical" and/or "psychological". It's true that nicotine is the most addictive drug that I've heard of. Its physically addictive. A short period after using nicotine, the BODY craves another hit. This craving can last for weeks. Alcohol, on the other hand is only physically addictive in the very short term. After a period of heavy drinking, the body becomes accustomed to the alcohol, and a short period after the supply is cut off, physical withdrawal ensues (i.e. the hangover). However, the full effects of the hangover are almost invariably gone after at the very most one day. After this, the body is no longer "addicted" to alcohol. The "psychological" addictiveness of alcohol, on the other hand, is significant. That is perhaps why alcohol weighed in above heroin, an extremely addictive substance. Alcohol is certainly not more "physically" addictive than heroin.
Perhaps the problem is that the term "addiction" is used as a catch-all for a variety of conditions. For example, nicotine addiction works entirely different from Alcoholism. Anybody can become a nicotine addict. It's an addiction in the purest sense of the term. With sufficient regularity of use the body becomes dependent on the drug. Anyone and EVERYONE who ingests nicotine on a regular basis becomes addicted. Alcoholism works entirely differently. Unlike nicotine addiction, alcoholism is congenital in nature. It has little to do with regularity of use and much to do with one's genetic predisposition. This explains the roughly billions of people who are able to drink casually, without developing alcoholism. For example, after a year of sobriety, an alcoholic still craves alcohol. After 20 years of sobriety, the recovering alcoholic still craves alcohol. If you don't believe me, ask your local chapter of AA. On the other hand, after a year without a cigarette, most ex-smokers would tell you that they no longer have any interest in smoking. After 20 years, the mere thought of smoking would probably never cross their mind. Alcoholism is a lifetime disease. Nicotine addiction is (or can be, if the smoker quits) temporary. Loomis51 23:11, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
You seem to have some strong feelings about AA, I'm not so sure I would call it a cult. Nevertheless, to be honest, I agree that their approach is rather gloomy. I sincerely hope you're right and I'm wrong and that alcoholism can be cured. But you only mention "through proper therapy". What is this therapy you're speaking of? (I'd sincerely like to know, I'm not just asking the question to goad you into another rebuttle. As I've always maintained, this debate is about learning, not winning or losing) Also, just wondering, why would a non-profit group care if its membership declined? They're obviously not in it for the money. What other motivation would they have? And finally, as an ex-smoker (and you may regard this as "anectodotal" as you wish), I have absolutely no interest in having a cigarette, no matter whose company I'm in (i.e. other smokers). But, as I said, you may dissmiss my experience as "anecdotal". Loomis51 22:52, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
If, as thoric suggests, "the "hardness" of a drug refers only to its addictiveness -- how hard it is to stop using said drug, and how easy it is to become hooked", this would lead to some peculiar conclusions. For example, coffee would have to be considered a "harder" substance than, say, thalidomide or cyanide. That can't be right.
Thoric: Do I have you on record as saying that since its more addictive, caffeine is a "harder" drug than cyanide? Just wanted to make sure. As for potential death from too much coffee, if you try hard enough, too much of pretty much anything can kill you. You can even die of a water overdose...its known as hyponatremia - see [1]
Wiktionaty defines "drug" as: A substance used to treat an illness, relieve a symptom or modify a chemical process in the body for a specific purpose. According to this definition, cyanide is a drug, as it is surely a substance that has the result of modifying a chemical process in the body for a specific purpose (i.e. death). No, it isn't addictive...but the addictivess of a substance as a criteria for its "hardness" is at best controversial. See hard and soft drugs. As for the "harmfulness" argument, of course caffeine causes more harm in the general population than cyanide, because it's so commonly used compared to cyanide. Now you're presenting a logical fallacy. Say I concoct a deadly drug in my basement. You take it, you die. But it hasn't been used by anybody. Does that mean its harmless? Loomis51 19:16, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
You can add Freud to the list, he was a regular cocaine user and prescribed it to his patients. Loomis51 22:52, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
alcohol - one of the most intense physical withdrawals of any drug... worse than that of heroin, as an alcohol withdrawal can actually kill you. alcohol has more addicts than just about any drug (if not absolutely any). LSD addicts just dont exist, ill have to see it before i believe it. it is certainly intoxicating, but alcohol is a comparatively hard and heavily addictive drug. but having said that (and having done LSD) i must say that people need to stop glorifying LSD as a "mind opening" drug. meditiation is mind-opening, reading is mind-opening. LSD can just drive you crazy. if you think syd barrett is one of the more open-minded individuals of our time, id hesitate to aspire to open-mindedness.
In any case, someone is really screwing around with this site, so I won't bother elaborating on my argument any longer. I had a whole bunch of arguments and they all got deleted. I'm in no mood to start all over again. Whoever deleted my arguments, shame on you...if you disagree, be a decent person and present an opposing argument. Don't just delete mine like the coward you are. Loomis51 03:35, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
I removed the reference to hard and soft drugs in this article, as it does not seem to me helpful to use this contentious and essentially political categorization scheme in passing. Although it may refer to the severity of consequences of (ab)use, it appears to me to be making a value judgement. -- MattBagg 18:04, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
Just to toss in my bit: LSD is only "hard" in the sense that it is theoretically the strongest possible psychoactive substance creatable by man. It is neither physiologically addictive nor toxic. People on LSD, as I can verify from personal observations, are not prone to big changes in behavior. They do not lose sanity, and they do not desire to do stupid and risky things, unless that was already a facet of their personality. I have always been of the opinion that the US wanted to ban LSD in order to keep citizens from thinking outside the box, so to speak. - Corbin Simpson 14:32, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
Government propaganda is alive and well, in a number of states, such as Iran, Russia and the US. What's so surprising about that? Haiduc 02:27, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
What do you call paying journalists for favorable copy, and using government funds to promote administration agenda? Haiduc 23:54, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
Propaganda is defined as: the spreading of ideas, information, or rumor for the purpose of helping or injuring an institution, a cause, or a person or ideas, facts, or allegations spread deliberately to further one's cause or to damage an opposing cause; also : a public action having such an effect. The DEA, NIMH and FDA certainly do this, among other organizations. -- Thoric 00:02, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
This page seems to plagiarize much of http://www.fas.org/irp/agency/doj/dea/product/lsd/lsd-5.htm for example take the following paragraph from fas.org:
"Only a small amount of ergotamine tartrate is required to produce LSD in large batches. For example, 25 kilograms of ergotamine tartrate can produce 5 or 6 kilograms of pure LSD crystal that, under ideal circumstances, could be processed into 100 million dosage units, more than enough to meet what is believed to be the entire annual U.S. demand for the hallucinogen. LSD manufacturers need only import a small quantity of the substance and, thus, enjoy the advantages of ease of concealment and transport not available to traffickers of other illegal drugs, primarily marijuana and cocaine. "
and compare to this to the paragraph in this article:
"Only a small amount of ergotamine tartrate is required to produce LSD in large batches. For example, 25 kilograms of ergotamine tartrate can produce 5 or 6 kilograms of pure LSD crystal that, under ideal circumstances, could be processed into 100 million dosage units (at 50 micrograms per dose), more than enough to meet what is believed to be the entire annual U.S. demand for the drug. LSD manufacturers need only create a small quantity of the substance and, thus, enjoy the advantages of ease of concealment and transport not available to traffickers of other illegal drugs, primarily marijuana and cocaine."
AlfredR 16:44, 24 September 2005 (UTC)
That text is from a US gov't department. That would usually mean it's not copyrighted. Of course, common sense (and probably some sort of Wikipedia policy) prescribes that it ought to be quoted and cited, rather than copied. 213.84.239.37 13:32, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
Every drug can induce psychological addiction!, see the wiki-atrticle addiction! And its not serious, to use a fifty years old study to proof things like alcoholic anonymous isn't succesfull with sobering people. so please, don't revert my version.
i can't belief that some herereally seems to belief, that a over 50 years old study could proof anything. "aa" was founded in the fifty's, you must use newer studys to proof something. by the way, i think its danergerous to say people, they should use lsd to stop there addiction, many heroin users and alcoholics have mental diseases, so they need real help, they need a therapy and its not good for them to use other drugs, they need time to find there own way inside theresselfs, using lsd can be an other way to hide from reallity.
Poor Thoric is obviously ignorant of 12 step programs. Narcotics Anonymous states that our lives had become unmanagable as a result of drugs and that by staying clean we can look at the reasons{inner demons} why we tried to escape reality. It's about accepting life on lifes terms ,personal responsability, not being a self centered pig and living spiritualy. N.A. teaches people to live in reality and not to be a pussy and run to some chemical because they had a hard day, they're bored, or to get some false sense of enlightenment. Anybody that uses drugs is trying to escape reality and can't handle life. P.S...ALCHOHOL is a drug.
The section on addiction needs a re-write, but it's a bit too extensive for me to just plunk it in without discussion. Here are the points that I think need to be made:
All things consdiered, most of this article is quite sound, which is why I'm trying to pitch in. -- Harmil 21:26, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Personally, I mostly find the anti-drug reference problematic because it does not cite any experts. In addition, LSD exposure and LSD psychotherapy are not the same thing. Describing the psychedelic psychotherapy process is not relevant to most LSD use unless one thinks that LSD exposure is inherently psychotherapeutic. I am aware that some believe this. However, I know of no peer reviewed publications that are evidence for this. -- MattBagg 18:11, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
Many experts consider drugs such as LSD to be a sort of anti-drug (encourages users to stop using drugs), as it forces the user to face issues and problems in their psyche in contrast to the hard drugs used for escapism purposes...
The Halpern quote is not particularly helpful because it lumps ibogaine in with LSD. Ibogaine probably has an unrelated mechanism to that of LSD and ibogaine probably is useful in treating addiction. -- MattBagg 17:58, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
The claim Contrary to common belief, scientific studies could not confirm that LSD can cause lasting psychoses, according to a meta-study' is backed with a link to a Master's Thesis. A peer reviewed publication would be much more convincing. I expect there is one? (Note that a master or PhD thesis whose result have not been published elsewhere sounds highly suspicious in natural sciences. It means: His work was not good enough to be published in a respected journal, but as we are nice guys we awarded his MSc anyway.) Simon A. 16:23, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
A key citation on this topic is Rick Strassman (1984). Adverse reactions to psychedelic drugs. A review of the literature. J Nerv Ment Dis 172:577-94. He reviews the literature and, as I recall, opines that psychedelics, like LSD, may at most play a nonspecific role in triggering psychosis in vulnerable individuals. -- Matt Baggott -- MattBagg 17:58, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
Maybe the wording is a little confusing? Need more emphasis on the high doses part? Maybe an example dose? 500ug? 1000ug? -- Thoric 18:21, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Again this paragraph is unclear and leads to conflicting editing. The original intent seems to be trying to describe the curve of intensity versus duration with respect to dosage, stating that after a certain dosage, intensity remains relatively constant, while the duration increases. Also to be noted is that the rate of ingestion can also determine the shape of the curve. For example, if half a dose (say 125mcg) was taken, then followed up with the other half dose a half hour later, the curve would be more gradual than if the entire dose was taken all at once. A rapid onset will result in a rapid comedown. -- Thoric 17:40, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
Removed addition by 67.84.9.9 stating that "LSD users may typically smoke marijuana to take 'the edge' off of an intense trip" By most accounts, marijuana intensifies the experience, and is most often used to help extend the intensity of the peak when it starts to wane. I would certainly not recommend cannabis to someone having an overly intense LSD experience. -- Thoric 04:19, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
List of notable people who have commented on the LSD experience, formerly a section of this article, has been afd'd. the entry is here. -- Heah (talk) 23:55, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
I believe statements such as "it often catalyzes intense spiritual experiences" and a study showing that "hallucinogens could reliably be used to induce mystical religious states" are POV or downright incorrect. The idea that a "mystical religious state" can even exist is at the very least unproven and at the very most impossible. Since it has not been proven that such a state exists, then it is ludicrous to say a study has shown that something can induce a such a state until a study proving such a state exists in the first place is carried out. Maybe there should be some rewording because this is extremely inappropriate. Solidusspriggan 07:55, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
a valid point- solidusspriggan may want to re-read the NPOV guidelines, particularly the sections on pseudoscience, religion, and the rest of the objections and clarifications section. -- Heah (talk) 10:23, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
let me speak from experience, as somebody who meditates at least three times daily (which may be "spiritual") and has taken LSD more than a few times....
"spirituality" is something that people define on their own terms. many people think that intellectualism, for instance, is a form of spirituality (or at least a necessary tool of spirituality), while many people think that intellectualism is the antithesis of spirituality.
having said that, and having done LSD, i can tell you that it is incredibly easy for an LSD user to convince himself that he is undergoing a "spiritual" experience. in his eyes that is completely true, which is arguably all that matters.
the list of people has been removed to below pending citations. yes, its obvious that timothy leary used acid, but we still need to cite that, especially when we are discussing people and illicit drug use. This was done on the Mescaline (talk page) page and it worked well.
ok, that's fine with me. i didn't even think about the fact that virtually this entire list is referred to in the article . . . it was an issue that came up during the afd of List of notable people who have commented on the LSD experience, and long, uncited lists of users is something found fairly often on articles such as these. apologies for creating more work for you, but thanks for helping to get this straightened out. -- Heah (talk) 01:40, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
This is a source check requested by Heah for the related topics section:
Raphael Labro LSD Expressionist citation needed |
International Symposium on the occasion of the 100th Birthday of Albert Hofmann
13 to 15 January 2006, Convention Center Basel, Switzerland
Lectures • Panels • Seminars • Workshops • Concerts • Exhibitions • Parties
On the occasion of the 100th birthday of Dr. Albert Hofmann on 11 January 2006, the Gaia Media Foundation stages an International Symposium on the most widely known and most controversial discovery of this outstanding scientist. (See www.lsd.info)
Just figured everyone here would be interested :) I know I am. Sadly, I'm not sure if I'll be able to go. It sounds like a once in a lifetime experience.
-- Thoric 19:17, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
I was surprised to see the unsubstantiated allegation that Tim Leary was supplied by the CIA with large amounts of LSD which he in turn distributed. What's the basis of this claim? I believe this to be an urban legend.
I suspect it might come from the claim that Ronald Hadley Stark was alledgedly a CIA agent. He was a con artist and made this claim in a successful effort to get out of jail in Italy. [Lobster "The Journal of Parapolitics" Summer 1998 issue 35, book review of Acid: the secret history of LSD]. Stark did supply some LSD to the Brotherhood of Eternal Love (BEL) [see US v Sand, Scully, Friedman, Stark, Randall, et al, CR73-306SC, 1973-4 San Francisco] from 1970-1973.
The Orange County California grand jury did allege in a 1972 indictment [C29725] that Tim Leary conspired with BEL to distribute drugs, but no evidence developed that Leary was directly involved in LSD distriution - he did not act as a conduit from Stark to BEL, for example. Stark delt directly with Michael Randall, the head of BEL's LSD distribution network at that time [see also the October 3, 1973 US Senate Internal Security Subcommitte hearing on Hashish Smuggling and Passport Fraud: The Brotherhood of Eternal Love].
Tim Leary was a very vocal advocate for LSD use but I'm unaware of any convincing evidence that he was a conduit for its distrubution. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.36.121.234 ( talk • contribs) .
I apologize for not signing in before posting the first comment in this thread. I did not intend to be anonymous. TimScully 22:51, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
For Clarity, please add your comments at the bottom
If this entry is one of the best of articles in the Wikipedia, the standards of the Wikipedia are extremely low. As with so many controversial subjects in the Wikipedia, the true believers have written an incredibly biased and inaccurate article. Simply put, the article is very much biased toward the argument that LSD is some sort of wonder drug. There is little in journals of juried science to support the enthusiastic claims of LSD being such.
Examples of the bias and shoddy research abound. For example, the LSD#Physical section on the physical effects of LSD makes several unsupported claims. A quick search on PubMed shows the claim that LSD has been show to be a more effective analgesic than opiates to have no basis in the medical literature. A PubMed search with the terms "lysergic acid diethylamide pain opiate" and uncovered no documents to support this claim. There is a 1964 article that is obliquely applicable but that is it. Likewise, a search using the terms "lysergic acid diethylamide analgesic" showed nothing to support the claim.
Equally unsupported by juried medical research is the claim that LSD is useful in cluster headache treatment. A PubMed search using the terms "lysergic acid diethylamide cluster headache" turned no documents. That suggests the putative "research" cited on LSD as a cluster headache treatment is not up to snuff. Or more bluntly, it appears to be fake science, not unlike Creation Science and deserves the same (lack of) respect as science. Even if the one source cited is a legitimate, peer reviewed source of research, one study hardly is definitive. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.225.94.77 ( talk • contribs) .
That I can spend ten minutes doing research and show the claims of one section of this article are at best dubious--and most likely just wrong--does not speak well of this article.
I suggest this article needs a thorough vetting to eliminate all the unsubstantiated or dubious claims made here.
I, however, doubt that it will receive an objective review, as the true believers in this pseudoscientific article will howl and scream should truly objective information be posted, as the truth does not fit with their agenda. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.225.94.77 ( talk • contribs) .
You didn't debunk one section after ten minutes; you simply failed to find any information in ten minutes. if you had found research showing that lsd was NOT an analgesic and was NOT effective in treating cluster headaches after ten minutes, then you would have debunked the section in ten minutes; instead, you just didn't spend enough time looking. As thoric says, you simply don't know what you are talking about. -- Heah talk 15:29, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
Whoa, whoa, slow down, both of you. No name-calling or persecution complexes are welcome here. We're building an encyclopedia, not having a fight over who's Eternally Right. And nobody needs to be called a "nutjob" or "intolerant". That's just not helping.
Looking for "good data" is exactly what we should be doing here -- with "good" meaning not that it agrees with our preconceptions, but rather that it shows solid research on the subject. Articles in Omni or other "pop" magazines are not research articles. The proceedings of the Basel symposium on the other hand sound like a good source. Let's have more of that! -- FOo 05:09, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
24.225.94.77: Most older reasearch cannot be easily found in Medline. The reasons are:
Finding the relevant references is therefore a bit more complicated than just typing some keywords into Medline. Why don't you try to help finding the references in question instead of wasting your time in flame wars with Thoric. (On an unrelated note: please could you register a username so that you can sign your contributions with ~~~~ and so that we can talk on your user talk page.)
Thoric: Popular or lay-press articles are in no way a solid source. We do have to find the original publications as well as relevant review articles and meta-studies and cite them. Otherwise it is not possible for anybody to check the quality of the studies and the significance of their claims. Cacycle 11:59, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
Experimental use of LSD as an analgesic was done by Eric Kast. e.g.: Attenuation of anticipation: a therapeutic use of lysergic acid diethylamide Psychiat. Quart. 1967,41:646-57. http://www.maps.org/w3pb/new/1967/1967_kast_3881_1.pdf I have edited the reference to this work to include the citation, but I confess that I did not re-read the paper, thus the specific claims made by a previous editor of this entry may not be supported. Perhaps someone with interest could read the paper via the provided link and correct.
The research on LSD as a treatment for alcoholism was masterfully reviewed by Mangini: Treatment of alcoholism using psychedelic drugs: a review of the program of research. J Psychoactive Drugs. 1998 Oct-Dec;30(4):381-418. As I recall, she concludes that the research did not definitively prove or disprove the efficacy of lsd in alcoholism before it became difficult to do the research. I added this reference in.
Concerning the idea that no human LSD research has occured in the last 40 years, I offer the following counterexample: Lim HK, Andrenyak D, Francom P, Foltz RL, Jones RT. Quantification of LSD and N-demethyl-LSD in urine by gas chromatography/resonance electron capture ionization mass spectrometry. Anal Chem. 1988 Jul 15;60(14):1420-5. Human volunteers were administered LSD in a lab setting for this paper. Also, LSD psychotherapy was allowed in Switzerland in the last few decades. -- MattBagg 18:03, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
I have reverted several edits from an anonymous user because, although I personally agree with some of the sentiment, the edits stated controversial opinions as fact. For example, saying LSD can "expand the user's perceptions and awareness" implies that the effects are inherently good. Also, the following sentence endorses the promise LSD as a fact when it is an opinion and seems to be combining several nonsequetors in one sentence (e.g., how is potency related to promise?): "Regardless of the legality of LSD, it remains one of the most potent and promising drugs, and is recognized as such in various intellectual circles."
The user also added a theory of flashbacks that I attempted to clarify, hopefully with good results.
I also reverted to a modification of my concluding sentence on LSD and alcoholism that the anonymous user had removed. I had stated that "the efficacy of LSD in treating alcoholism remains an open question" and had given the best citation for this whole topic. I invite those who disagree with this conclusion to read the paper, which is thorough and balanced. In returning the sentence, I clarified the criticisms of past LSD-alcoholism studies and made clear that the openness was the conclusion of Mangini's paper. -- MattBagg 20:26, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
User:Acitrano made this edit, and I really think the older version is much more... accurate, but that's original research. Then again, so is whatever gets written there, until someone puts something sourced in that section. I'm making a note here because I'd like to call attention to the original research that is that section (whichever version), and also to allow for any trippers who find Acitrano's version better than the version I'm reverting to to say so, and revert me back if you see fit, or fix it up however. I mean, if we're just gonna make shit up, we might as well do it right, right?
Even better, someone find and reference a sourced statement about the sensory/perceptual effects of LSD, and put that in. - GTBacchus( talk) 07:23, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
Appropriate references would be the following:
[ http://www.maps.org/w3pb/new/1962/1962_linton_2052_1.pdf Linton & Langs 1962 Subjective reactions to lysergic acid diethylamide (LSD-25) measured by a questionnaire Arch. gen. Psychiat. 6:352-368] This is definitely a good ref for ego alterations
Katz, Waskow, & Olsson 1968 Characterizing the psychological state produced by LSD. J Abnorm Psychol. 73(1):1-14. This is one of the last and best attempts to capture the LSD state with a questionnaire. I'm fairly sure it notes the illusory movement effect, but if not it is described by Oster in:
Oster 1966 Moire patterns and visual hallucinations Psychedelic Rev. 7:33-40
Stoll 1947 Lysergsäure-diäthyl-amid, ein Phantastikum aus der Mutterkorngruppe Schweiz. Arch. Neut. 60:279-280 I can't read this but it may be the earliest publishest report of subjective LSD effects and should possibly be cited based on this? Anyone read Swiss? The link is to the actual paper.
I have added all but this last reference in and moved the ego distortion sentences from the sensory section to the psychological. I also edited the sentence on the role of ego changes in the sacremental use of LSD to make it more speculative, given the lack of a reference I think it appropriate. If someone has a reference to the role of unitive states in the sacremental use of LSD, then I'd be happy to see the sentence reverted. I'm also not certain if the term 'unitive' is clear in this context, but have retained it.
-- MattBagg 18:05, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
I wanted to open discussion instead of acting rashly, but what do you guys think of converting that informal table midway through the article into a full chemical infobox and putting it at the top? - Corbin Simpson 07:18, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
"Pregnant women are advised not to ingest LSD, since a side effect is that it induces contractions and babies can be born smaller than normal." -- the page cited as the source for this claim does not say anything of the like, but actually makes another, equally absurd claim -> "LSD users may have violent behavior and flashbacks. During pregnancy, use of LSD may lead to birth defects in the baby." -- this rumor ran rampant in the late 80's and early 90's. It is unfounded. I am removing this sentence, since the source does not back up the claim.
This page was getting much too long. I removed all inactive conversations (roughly those with no activity since September, since this page gets a lot of activity on old conversations). The page is still too long, but I managed to shave about 60K off of it by moving that info to Talk:LSD/Archive01. Kit O'Connell ( Todfox: user / talk / contribs) 21:13, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Does the article actually, really, try to imply that LSD is a "soft" drug? It compares LSD to "harder" drugs such as "alcohol, cocaine and heroin". First, let me just say, that of course, when alcohol is used in excess it is harmful...but to place it in the same category as cocaine and heroine!!! Further, to imply that alcohol is a "harder" drug than LSD is simply ludicrous. What definition of "hard" are we talking about here? The article further does not just suggest but STATES, with supposed authority, that unlike "alcohol, cocaine and heroin", LSD is NOT an escape from reality. What trip were the writers of this article on when they suggest that alcohol is more of an escape from reality than LSD? Please correct me if I'm wrong, so that next time I consider having a glass of wine with dinner with my girlfriend, I'll suggest we do something "softer" and drop acid instead...acid in moderation of course. Loomis51 22:37, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
With respect to the benefits of LSD, though they may exist, I'm unconvinced that it would be a good idea to recommend use of LSD to the uninitiated. Its potential for serious psychological and even psychiatric long term trauma is far too great. I personally know of numerous incidences of the harm LSD can cause. With regard to a drug's addictive qualities, I believe a serious distinction should be introduced: Addiction can be "physical" and/or "psychological". It's true that nicotine is the most addictive drug that I've heard of. Its physically addictive. A short period after using nicotine, the BODY craves another hit. This craving can last for weeks. Alcohol, on the other hand is only physically addictive in the very short term. After a period of heavy drinking, the body becomes accustomed to the alcohol, and a short period after the supply is cut off, physical withdrawal ensues (i.e. the hangover). However, the full effects of the hangover are almost invariably gone after at the very most one day. After this, the body is no longer "addicted" to alcohol. The "psychological" addictiveness of alcohol, on the other hand, is significant. That is perhaps why alcohol weighed in above heroin, an extremely addictive substance. Alcohol is certainly not more "physically" addictive than heroin.
Perhaps the problem is that the term "addiction" is used as a catch-all for a variety of conditions. For example, nicotine addiction works entirely different from Alcoholism. Anybody can become a nicotine addict. It's an addiction in the purest sense of the term. With sufficient regularity of use the body becomes dependent on the drug. Anyone and EVERYONE who ingests nicotine on a regular basis becomes addicted. Alcoholism works entirely differently. Unlike nicotine addiction, alcoholism is congenital in nature. It has little to do with regularity of use and much to do with one's genetic predisposition. This explains the roughly billions of people who are able to drink casually, without developing alcoholism. For example, after a year of sobriety, an alcoholic still craves alcohol. After 20 years of sobriety, the recovering alcoholic still craves alcohol. If you don't believe me, ask your local chapter of AA. On the other hand, after a year without a cigarette, most ex-smokers would tell you that they no longer have any interest in smoking. After 20 years, the mere thought of smoking would probably never cross their mind. Alcoholism is a lifetime disease. Nicotine addiction is (or can be, if the smoker quits) temporary. Loomis51 23:11, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
You seem to have some strong feelings about AA, I'm not so sure I would call it a cult. Nevertheless, to be honest, I agree that their approach is rather gloomy. I sincerely hope you're right and I'm wrong and that alcoholism can be cured. But you only mention "through proper therapy". What is this therapy you're speaking of? (I'd sincerely like to know, I'm not just asking the question to goad you into another rebuttle. As I've always maintained, this debate is about learning, not winning or losing) Also, just wondering, why would a non-profit group care if its membership declined? They're obviously not in it for the money. What other motivation would they have? And finally, as an ex-smoker (and you may regard this as "anectodotal" as you wish), I have absolutely no interest in having a cigarette, no matter whose company I'm in (i.e. other smokers). But, as I said, you may dissmiss my experience as "anecdotal". Loomis51 22:52, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
If, as thoric suggests, "the "hardness" of a drug refers only to its addictiveness -- how hard it is to stop using said drug, and how easy it is to become hooked", this would lead to some peculiar conclusions. For example, coffee would have to be considered a "harder" substance than, say, thalidomide or cyanide. That can't be right.
Thoric: Do I have you on record as saying that since its more addictive, caffeine is a "harder" drug than cyanide? Just wanted to make sure. As for potential death from too much coffee, if you try hard enough, too much of pretty much anything can kill you. You can even die of a water overdose...its known as hyponatremia - see [1]
Wiktionaty defines "drug" as: A substance used to treat an illness, relieve a symptom or modify a chemical process in the body for a specific purpose. According to this definition, cyanide is a drug, as it is surely a substance that has the result of modifying a chemical process in the body for a specific purpose (i.e. death). No, it isn't addictive...but the addictivess of a substance as a criteria for its "hardness" is at best controversial. See hard and soft drugs. As for the "harmfulness" argument, of course caffeine causes more harm in the general population than cyanide, because it's so commonly used compared to cyanide. Now you're presenting a logical fallacy. Say I concoct a deadly drug in my basement. You take it, you die. But it hasn't been used by anybody. Does that mean its harmless? Loomis51 19:16, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
You can add Freud to the list, he was a regular cocaine user and prescribed it to his patients. Loomis51 22:52, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
alcohol - one of the most intense physical withdrawals of any drug... worse than that of heroin, as an alcohol withdrawal can actually kill you. alcohol has more addicts than just about any drug (if not absolutely any). LSD addicts just dont exist, ill have to see it before i believe it. it is certainly intoxicating, but alcohol is a comparatively hard and heavily addictive drug. but having said that (and having done LSD) i must say that people need to stop glorifying LSD as a "mind opening" drug. meditiation is mind-opening, reading is mind-opening. LSD can just drive you crazy. if you think syd barrett is one of the more open-minded individuals of our time, id hesitate to aspire to open-mindedness.
In any case, someone is really screwing around with this site, so I won't bother elaborating on my argument any longer. I had a whole bunch of arguments and they all got deleted. I'm in no mood to start all over again. Whoever deleted my arguments, shame on you...if you disagree, be a decent person and present an opposing argument. Don't just delete mine like the coward you are. Loomis51 03:35, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
I removed the reference to hard and soft drugs in this article, as it does not seem to me helpful to use this contentious and essentially political categorization scheme in passing. Although it may refer to the severity of consequences of (ab)use, it appears to me to be making a value judgement. -- MattBagg 18:04, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
Just to toss in my bit: LSD is only "hard" in the sense that it is theoretically the strongest possible psychoactive substance creatable by man. It is neither physiologically addictive nor toxic. People on LSD, as I can verify from personal observations, are not prone to big changes in behavior. They do not lose sanity, and they do not desire to do stupid and risky things, unless that was already a facet of their personality. I have always been of the opinion that the US wanted to ban LSD in order to keep citizens from thinking outside the box, so to speak. - Corbin Simpson 14:32, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
Government propaganda is alive and well, in a number of states, such as Iran, Russia and the US. What's so surprising about that? Haiduc 02:27, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
What do you call paying journalists for favorable copy, and using government funds to promote administration agenda? Haiduc 23:54, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
Propaganda is defined as: the spreading of ideas, information, or rumor for the purpose of helping or injuring an institution, a cause, or a person or ideas, facts, or allegations spread deliberately to further one's cause or to damage an opposing cause; also : a public action having such an effect. The DEA, NIMH and FDA certainly do this, among other organizations. -- Thoric 00:02, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
This page seems to plagiarize much of http://www.fas.org/irp/agency/doj/dea/product/lsd/lsd-5.htm for example take the following paragraph from fas.org:
"Only a small amount of ergotamine tartrate is required to produce LSD in large batches. For example, 25 kilograms of ergotamine tartrate can produce 5 or 6 kilograms of pure LSD crystal that, under ideal circumstances, could be processed into 100 million dosage units, more than enough to meet what is believed to be the entire annual U.S. demand for the hallucinogen. LSD manufacturers need only import a small quantity of the substance and, thus, enjoy the advantages of ease of concealment and transport not available to traffickers of other illegal drugs, primarily marijuana and cocaine. "
and compare to this to the paragraph in this article:
"Only a small amount of ergotamine tartrate is required to produce LSD in large batches. For example, 25 kilograms of ergotamine tartrate can produce 5 or 6 kilograms of pure LSD crystal that, under ideal circumstances, could be processed into 100 million dosage units (at 50 micrograms per dose), more than enough to meet what is believed to be the entire annual U.S. demand for the drug. LSD manufacturers need only create a small quantity of the substance and, thus, enjoy the advantages of ease of concealment and transport not available to traffickers of other illegal drugs, primarily marijuana and cocaine."
AlfredR 16:44, 24 September 2005 (UTC)
That text is from a US gov't department. That would usually mean it's not copyrighted. Of course, common sense (and probably some sort of Wikipedia policy) prescribes that it ought to be quoted and cited, rather than copied. 213.84.239.37 13:32, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
Every drug can induce psychological addiction!, see the wiki-atrticle addiction! And its not serious, to use a fifty years old study to proof things like alcoholic anonymous isn't succesfull with sobering people. so please, don't revert my version.
i can't belief that some herereally seems to belief, that a over 50 years old study could proof anything. "aa" was founded in the fifty's, you must use newer studys to proof something. by the way, i think its danergerous to say people, they should use lsd to stop there addiction, many heroin users and alcoholics have mental diseases, so they need real help, they need a therapy and its not good for them to use other drugs, they need time to find there own way inside theresselfs, using lsd can be an other way to hide from reallity.
Poor Thoric is obviously ignorant of 12 step programs. Narcotics Anonymous states that our lives had become unmanagable as a result of drugs and that by staying clean we can look at the reasons{inner demons} why we tried to escape reality. It's about accepting life on lifes terms ,personal responsability, not being a self centered pig and living spiritualy. N.A. teaches people to live in reality and not to be a pussy and run to some chemical because they had a hard day, they're bored, or to get some false sense of enlightenment. Anybody that uses drugs is trying to escape reality and can't handle life. P.S...ALCHOHOL is a drug.
The section on addiction needs a re-write, but it's a bit too extensive for me to just plunk it in without discussion. Here are the points that I think need to be made:
All things consdiered, most of this article is quite sound, which is why I'm trying to pitch in. -- Harmil 21:26, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Personally, I mostly find the anti-drug reference problematic because it does not cite any experts. In addition, LSD exposure and LSD psychotherapy are not the same thing. Describing the psychedelic psychotherapy process is not relevant to most LSD use unless one thinks that LSD exposure is inherently psychotherapeutic. I am aware that some believe this. However, I know of no peer reviewed publications that are evidence for this. -- MattBagg 18:11, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
Many experts consider drugs such as LSD to be a sort of anti-drug (encourages users to stop using drugs), as it forces the user to face issues and problems in their psyche in contrast to the hard drugs used for escapism purposes...
The Halpern quote is not particularly helpful because it lumps ibogaine in with LSD. Ibogaine probably has an unrelated mechanism to that of LSD and ibogaine probably is useful in treating addiction. -- MattBagg 17:58, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
The claim Contrary to common belief, scientific studies could not confirm that LSD can cause lasting psychoses, according to a meta-study' is backed with a link to a Master's Thesis. A peer reviewed publication would be much more convincing. I expect there is one? (Note that a master or PhD thesis whose result have not been published elsewhere sounds highly suspicious in natural sciences. It means: His work was not good enough to be published in a respected journal, but as we are nice guys we awarded his MSc anyway.) Simon A. 16:23, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
A key citation on this topic is Rick Strassman (1984). Adverse reactions to psychedelic drugs. A review of the literature. J Nerv Ment Dis 172:577-94. He reviews the literature and, as I recall, opines that psychedelics, like LSD, may at most play a nonspecific role in triggering psychosis in vulnerable individuals. -- Matt Baggott -- MattBagg 17:58, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
Maybe the wording is a little confusing? Need more emphasis on the high doses part? Maybe an example dose? 500ug? 1000ug? -- Thoric 18:21, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Again this paragraph is unclear and leads to conflicting editing. The original intent seems to be trying to describe the curve of intensity versus duration with respect to dosage, stating that after a certain dosage, intensity remains relatively constant, while the duration increases. Also to be noted is that the rate of ingestion can also determine the shape of the curve. For example, if half a dose (say 125mcg) was taken, then followed up with the other half dose a half hour later, the curve would be more gradual than if the entire dose was taken all at once. A rapid onset will result in a rapid comedown. -- Thoric 17:40, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
Removed addition by 67.84.9.9 stating that "LSD users may typically smoke marijuana to take 'the edge' off of an intense trip" By most accounts, marijuana intensifies the experience, and is most often used to help extend the intensity of the peak when it starts to wane. I would certainly not recommend cannabis to someone having an overly intense LSD experience. -- Thoric 04:19, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
List of notable people who have commented on the LSD experience, formerly a section of this article, has been afd'd. the entry is here. -- Heah (talk) 23:55, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
I believe statements such as "it often catalyzes intense spiritual experiences" and a study showing that "hallucinogens could reliably be used to induce mystical religious states" are POV or downright incorrect. The idea that a "mystical religious state" can even exist is at the very least unproven and at the very most impossible. Since it has not been proven that such a state exists, then it is ludicrous to say a study has shown that something can induce a such a state until a study proving such a state exists in the first place is carried out. Maybe there should be some rewording because this is extremely inappropriate. Solidusspriggan 07:55, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
a valid point- solidusspriggan may want to re-read the NPOV guidelines, particularly the sections on pseudoscience, religion, and the rest of the objections and clarifications section. -- Heah (talk) 10:23, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
let me speak from experience, as somebody who meditates at least three times daily (which may be "spiritual") and has taken LSD more than a few times....
"spirituality" is something that people define on their own terms. many people think that intellectualism, for instance, is a form of spirituality (or at least a necessary tool of spirituality), while many people think that intellectualism is the antithesis of spirituality.
having said that, and having done LSD, i can tell you that it is incredibly easy for an LSD user to convince himself that he is undergoing a "spiritual" experience. in his eyes that is completely true, which is arguably all that matters.
the list of people has been removed to below pending citations. yes, its obvious that timothy leary used acid, but we still need to cite that, especially when we are discussing people and illicit drug use. This was done on the Mescaline (talk page) page and it worked well.
ok, that's fine with me. i didn't even think about the fact that virtually this entire list is referred to in the article . . . it was an issue that came up during the afd of List of notable people who have commented on the LSD experience, and long, uncited lists of users is something found fairly often on articles such as these. apologies for creating more work for you, but thanks for helping to get this straightened out. -- Heah (talk) 01:40, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
This is a source check requested by Heah for the related topics section:
Raphael Labro LSD Expressionist citation needed |
International Symposium on the occasion of the 100th Birthday of Albert Hofmann
13 to 15 January 2006, Convention Center Basel, Switzerland
Lectures • Panels • Seminars • Workshops • Concerts • Exhibitions • Parties
On the occasion of the 100th birthday of Dr. Albert Hofmann on 11 January 2006, the Gaia Media Foundation stages an International Symposium on the most widely known and most controversial discovery of this outstanding scientist. (See www.lsd.info)
Just figured everyone here would be interested :) I know I am. Sadly, I'm not sure if I'll be able to go. It sounds like a once in a lifetime experience.
-- Thoric 19:17, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
I was surprised to see the unsubstantiated allegation that Tim Leary was supplied by the CIA with large amounts of LSD which he in turn distributed. What's the basis of this claim? I believe this to be an urban legend.
I suspect it might come from the claim that Ronald Hadley Stark was alledgedly a CIA agent. He was a con artist and made this claim in a successful effort to get out of jail in Italy. [Lobster "The Journal of Parapolitics" Summer 1998 issue 35, book review of Acid: the secret history of LSD]. Stark did supply some LSD to the Brotherhood of Eternal Love (BEL) [see US v Sand, Scully, Friedman, Stark, Randall, et al, CR73-306SC, 1973-4 San Francisco] from 1970-1973.
The Orange County California grand jury did allege in a 1972 indictment [C29725] that Tim Leary conspired with BEL to distribute drugs, but no evidence developed that Leary was directly involved in LSD distriution - he did not act as a conduit from Stark to BEL, for example. Stark delt directly with Michael Randall, the head of BEL's LSD distribution network at that time [see also the October 3, 1973 US Senate Internal Security Subcommitte hearing on Hashish Smuggling and Passport Fraud: The Brotherhood of Eternal Love].
Tim Leary was a very vocal advocate for LSD use but I'm unaware of any convincing evidence that he was a conduit for its distrubution. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.36.121.234 ( talk • contribs) .
I apologize for not signing in before posting the first comment in this thread. I did not intend to be anonymous. TimScully 22:51, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
For Clarity, please add your comments at the bottom
If this entry is one of the best of articles in the Wikipedia, the standards of the Wikipedia are extremely low. As with so many controversial subjects in the Wikipedia, the true believers have written an incredibly biased and inaccurate article. Simply put, the article is very much biased toward the argument that LSD is some sort of wonder drug. There is little in journals of juried science to support the enthusiastic claims of LSD being such.
Examples of the bias and shoddy research abound. For example, the LSD#Physical section on the physical effects of LSD makes several unsupported claims. A quick search on PubMed shows the claim that LSD has been show to be a more effective analgesic than opiates to have no basis in the medical literature. A PubMed search with the terms "lysergic acid diethylamide pain opiate" and uncovered no documents to support this claim. There is a 1964 article that is obliquely applicable but that is it. Likewise, a search using the terms "lysergic acid diethylamide analgesic" showed nothing to support the claim.
Equally unsupported by juried medical research is the claim that LSD is useful in cluster headache treatment. A PubMed search using the terms "lysergic acid diethylamide cluster headache" turned no documents. That suggests the putative "research" cited on LSD as a cluster headache treatment is not up to snuff. Or more bluntly, it appears to be fake science, not unlike Creation Science and deserves the same (lack of) respect as science. Even if the one source cited is a legitimate, peer reviewed source of research, one study hardly is definitive. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.225.94.77 ( talk • contribs) .
That I can spend ten minutes doing research and show the claims of one section of this article are at best dubious--and most likely just wrong--does not speak well of this article.
I suggest this article needs a thorough vetting to eliminate all the unsubstantiated or dubious claims made here.
I, however, doubt that it will receive an objective review, as the true believers in this pseudoscientific article will howl and scream should truly objective information be posted, as the truth does not fit with their agenda. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.225.94.77 ( talk • contribs) .
You didn't debunk one section after ten minutes; you simply failed to find any information in ten minutes. if you had found research showing that lsd was NOT an analgesic and was NOT effective in treating cluster headaches after ten minutes, then you would have debunked the section in ten minutes; instead, you just didn't spend enough time looking. As thoric says, you simply don't know what you are talking about. -- Heah talk 15:29, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
Whoa, whoa, slow down, both of you. No name-calling or persecution complexes are welcome here. We're building an encyclopedia, not having a fight over who's Eternally Right. And nobody needs to be called a "nutjob" or "intolerant". That's just not helping.
Looking for "good data" is exactly what we should be doing here -- with "good" meaning not that it agrees with our preconceptions, but rather that it shows solid research on the subject. Articles in Omni or other "pop" magazines are not research articles. The proceedings of the Basel symposium on the other hand sound like a good source. Let's have more of that! -- FOo 05:09, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
24.225.94.77: Most older reasearch cannot be easily found in Medline. The reasons are:
Finding the relevant references is therefore a bit more complicated than just typing some keywords into Medline. Why don't you try to help finding the references in question instead of wasting your time in flame wars with Thoric. (On an unrelated note: please could you register a username so that you can sign your contributions with ~~~~ and so that we can talk on your user talk page.)
Thoric: Popular or lay-press articles are in no way a solid source. We do have to find the original publications as well as relevant review articles and meta-studies and cite them. Otherwise it is not possible for anybody to check the quality of the studies and the significance of their claims. Cacycle 11:59, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
Experimental use of LSD as an analgesic was done by Eric Kast. e.g.: Attenuation of anticipation: a therapeutic use of lysergic acid diethylamide Psychiat. Quart. 1967,41:646-57. http://www.maps.org/w3pb/new/1967/1967_kast_3881_1.pdf I have edited the reference to this work to include the citation, but I confess that I did not re-read the paper, thus the specific claims made by a previous editor of this entry may not be supported. Perhaps someone with interest could read the paper via the provided link and correct.
The research on LSD as a treatment for alcoholism was masterfully reviewed by Mangini: Treatment of alcoholism using psychedelic drugs: a review of the program of research. J Psychoactive Drugs. 1998 Oct-Dec;30(4):381-418. As I recall, she concludes that the research did not definitively prove or disprove the efficacy of lsd in alcoholism before it became difficult to do the research. I added this reference in.
Concerning the idea that no human LSD research has occured in the last 40 years, I offer the following counterexample: Lim HK, Andrenyak D, Francom P, Foltz RL, Jones RT. Quantification of LSD and N-demethyl-LSD in urine by gas chromatography/resonance electron capture ionization mass spectrometry. Anal Chem. 1988 Jul 15;60(14):1420-5. Human volunteers were administered LSD in a lab setting for this paper. Also, LSD psychotherapy was allowed in Switzerland in the last few decades. -- MattBagg 18:03, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
I have reverted several edits from an anonymous user because, although I personally agree with some of the sentiment, the edits stated controversial opinions as fact. For example, saying LSD can "expand the user's perceptions and awareness" implies that the effects are inherently good. Also, the following sentence endorses the promise LSD as a fact when it is an opinion and seems to be combining several nonsequetors in one sentence (e.g., how is potency related to promise?): "Regardless of the legality of LSD, it remains one of the most potent and promising drugs, and is recognized as such in various intellectual circles."
The user also added a theory of flashbacks that I attempted to clarify, hopefully with good results.
I also reverted to a modification of my concluding sentence on LSD and alcoholism that the anonymous user had removed. I had stated that "the efficacy of LSD in treating alcoholism remains an open question" and had given the best citation for this whole topic. I invite those who disagree with this conclusion to read the paper, which is thorough and balanced. In returning the sentence, I clarified the criticisms of past LSD-alcoholism studies and made clear that the openness was the conclusion of Mangini's paper. -- MattBagg 20:26, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
User:Acitrano made this edit, and I really think the older version is much more... accurate, but that's original research. Then again, so is whatever gets written there, until someone puts something sourced in that section. I'm making a note here because I'd like to call attention to the original research that is that section (whichever version), and also to allow for any trippers who find Acitrano's version better than the version I'm reverting to to say so, and revert me back if you see fit, or fix it up however. I mean, if we're just gonna make shit up, we might as well do it right, right?
Even better, someone find and reference a sourced statement about the sensory/perceptual effects of LSD, and put that in. - GTBacchus( talk) 07:23, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
Appropriate references would be the following:
[ http://www.maps.org/w3pb/new/1962/1962_linton_2052_1.pdf Linton & Langs 1962 Subjective reactions to lysergic acid diethylamide (LSD-25) measured by a questionnaire Arch. gen. Psychiat. 6:352-368] This is definitely a good ref for ego alterations
Katz, Waskow, & Olsson 1968 Characterizing the psychological state produced by LSD. J Abnorm Psychol. 73(1):1-14. This is one of the last and best attempts to capture the LSD state with a questionnaire. I'm fairly sure it notes the illusory movement effect, but if not it is described by Oster in:
Oster 1966 Moire patterns and visual hallucinations Psychedelic Rev. 7:33-40
Stoll 1947 Lysergsäure-diäthyl-amid, ein Phantastikum aus der Mutterkorngruppe Schweiz. Arch. Neut. 60:279-280 I can't read this but it may be the earliest publishest report of subjective LSD effects and should possibly be cited based on this? Anyone read Swiss? The link is to the actual paper.
I have added all but this last reference in and moved the ego distortion sentences from the sensory section to the psychological. I also edited the sentence on the role of ego changes in the sacremental use of LSD to make it more speculative, given the lack of a reference I think it appropriate. If someone has a reference to the role of unitive states in the sacremental use of LSD, then I'd be happy to see the sentence reverted. I'm also not certain if the term 'unitive' is clear in this context, but have retained it.
-- MattBagg 18:05, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
I wanted to open discussion instead of acting rashly, but what do you guys think of converting that informal table midway through the article into a full chemical infobox and putting it at the top? - Corbin Simpson 07:18, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
"Pregnant women are advised not to ingest LSD, since a side effect is that it induces contractions and babies can be born smaller than normal." -- the page cited as the source for this claim does not say anything of the like, but actually makes another, equally absurd claim -> "LSD users may have violent behavior and flashbacks. During pregnancy, use of LSD may lead to birth defects in the baby." -- this rumor ran rampant in the late 80's and early 90's. It is unfounded. I am removing this sentence, since the source does not back up the claim.
This page was getting much too long. I removed all inactive conversations (roughly those with no activity since September, since this page gets a lot of activity on old conversations). The page is still too long, but I managed to shave about 60K off of it by moving that info to Talk:LSD/Archive01. Kit O'Connell ( Todfox: user / talk / contribs) 21:13, 25 January 2006 (UTC)