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This section added by 194.57.219.129 has no references in the proper format, uses other Wiki articles as references, reads like someone's personal essay writing and has serious POV problems. "The pathetic end of life of Ron Hubbard, the numerous injection marks on his body and the drugs found in his corpse seem to strengthen the sad picture painted by the testimonies above." While I would welcome a section on Hubbard's drug use, I think that there are too many problems with it right now to let it stay before a massive cleanup. AndroidCat 22:09, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
Sounds pretty similar to the accounts I recall reading in Sunday supplements. I agree there are style problems but the bulk of the text seems pretty accurate to me. MarkThomas 22:11, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
Hi, for Messiah or Madman (B. Corydon), full text is here online: [1]. However, in this format, page is n°54. I'll try to find the other texts online since I've time... 194.57.219.129 18 April 2007 see chapter 'Scientology at sea' for J. Atack in APOBS 194.57.219.129 18 April 2007
Misou, I've completed one reference, other quotes are from the authors themselves or from interviews with the people they quote. Perhaps Miller, Corydon, Armstrong, Downsborough, Atack are complete liars, and Ron Hubbard has an enormous sens of humour (and he really had, sometimes). However, they basically described the same kind of person, and if all of them can lie, their testimonies have to be considered anyway. About my ID, I can't have one because IP I use is not only mine, but the IP of my university so a lot of people can use it, it's not useful to create a special ID... I'm not hiding, no more than you (Misou is not your real name, is it?). Facts and quotes and references are important, not who I am. However, I'm not German, sorry:-) 194.57.219.129 19 April 2007
Misou, almost everything you pointed out to 194.57.219.129 can be said about the information the CoS puts out about him, just in a much more "cheery" way (the opposite of "smeary"). Watch: They have been written for specific purposes at the time and were appropriately "cheery". What's much more interesting is to see the original documents the books are based on, to see the context and exact wording.That is what I meant with "Do you have the original data (not the digested stuff in the books)?" I'm all for primary sources, but books are necessary here too. They're secondary sources. Anynobody 09:40, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
The the picture mentioned of a totally exhausted Hubbard is out there, here's a rendering of it: (I have seen this photograph before, don't remember where but I'm pretty sure it can be found.)
. Anynobody 09:31, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
Unless there is a source indicating the picture is fake, and assuming I find and post the photo in question, would you be able to tell if it's fake? If so would you then be able to explain why it is or isn't? The statement wasn't discussing his appearance in the 1960s it was talking about his appearance in 1985 at the time of the article's publishing. Anynobody 22:38, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
The suggested format for a lead paragraph can and should include discussion regarding crticism of the article's subject. It also points out that a good lead should include references to each sections discussed.
WP:LEAD#Writing about concepts When writing a lead section about ideas and concepts (such as "truth"), it can be helpful to introduce the topic as follows:
WP:LEAD#Suggestions The lead section should concisely reflect the content of the article as a whole. For many articles, these suggestions can be helpful in writing an appropriate lead:
I don't see any reason why we can't come to an agreement about this issue and get that tag removed. Anynobody 22:22, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
WP:LEAD says that an article greater than 30,000 characters is very large.
My word processor counted: 37,889 with no spaces. 44,965 with. I copied and pasted all sections from the article page except the lead, the TOC, references, and links/categories. It also counted characters that shouldn't count like [edit] and reference numbers. Even deducting those this article is well above 30,000 making 3,4, or even maybe 5 paragraphs appropriate.
Would it be inappropriate to split this article up? It was proposed at Sylvia Browne to make a subpage dedicated to her controversial biographical aspects and criticism, and it seems to have worked well. I've noticed that like her, there seems to be a dispute about more or less every aspect of Hubbard's life. Anynobody 23:03, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
One thing I have to say for the opening paragraph as it is now is that it makes you want to read on. :-) Steve Dufour 04:16, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
The lead section here now could not stand by itself. You're right that we don't need to list all the genres he wrote in, which is why the opening sentence should just say he was a writer. I think the lead needs expanding but it doesn't need to be so specific. This is also why I didn't include the subsections in the list of things it should mention above.The lead should be capable of standing alone as a concise overview of the article, establishing context, explaining why the subject is interesting or notable, and briefly describing its notable controversies, if there are any.
Anynobody 01:23, 5 April 2007 (UTC)20:35, 8 November 2006 CloudNine (Talk | contribs) m (Lead section is too short for an article of this length)
Lee Harvey Oswald was actually a bad example to cite as a good lead, because it doesn't mention he was a qualified USMC sharpshooter which is pretty relevant when discussing a man who is notable for what he is.
I get the impression you think that I want to include the whole article, I do not. However I think as mmany major sections should be mentioned as possible and some of the text reworded:
Lafayette Ronald Hubbard ( 13 March 1911 – 24 January 1986), better known as L. Ron Hubbard, was primarily known as an American freelance writer [1] [2] [3]and founder of the Church of Scientology based on the ideas put forth in his book Dianetics. He was also an officer in the United States Navy during the Second World War and would go on to command a fleet of private Scientology vessels after later legal difficulties in the U.S. dictated his temporary relocation. Hubbard used the opportunity to form an elite group within Scientology he called the Sea Org. He continued writing and expanding the concepts on which he founded the Church until his January 24, 1986 death at a private California ranch. Hubbard was a controversial public figure, with many details of his life disputed.
The Church of Scientology official biographies present Hubbard as "larger than life, attracted to people, liked by people, dynamic, charismatic and immensely capable in a dozen fields". [4] However, the Church's account of Hubbard's life has changed over time, with editions of the biographical account published over the years differing from each other. [5]
In contrast, biographies of Hubbard by independent journalists and accounts by former Scientologists paint a much less flattering, and often highly critical, picture of Hubbard and in many cases contradict the material presented by the Church. [6] [7] [1]
This is closer to what I'd like to see. Calling him a writer instead of a Pulp fiction and Science fiction magazine writer, dedicating one paragraph to praise and the last for criticism. Anynobody 06:18, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
Please tell me what you think. -- Justanother 13:07, 5 April 2007 (UTC)Lafayette Ronald Hubbard ( 13 March 1911 – 24 January 1986), better known as L. Ron Hubbard, was a well-known American author of the pre-World War II pulp fiction era that went on to write the immensely popular self-help book Dianetics in 1950 and to found of the Church of Scientology in 1953. He served as an officer in the United States Navy during World War II and later commanded a small fleet of private Scientology vessels manned by his Sea Org, a group that became the management structure of the present-day Church. He continued writing and expanding the concepts on which he founded the Church until his January 24, 1986 death at a private California ranch.
I'm not saying that we need to fill the lead with negative information but in order to truly be NPOV the critics must be addressed too. Anynobody 01:51, 6 April 2007 (UTC)He was an avid seaman and served as an officer in the United States Navy during World War II. Later he commanded a small fleet of private Scientology vessels during a particularly controversial period in his life. At that time he created the Sea Org, which started as simply the crews who manned the vessels but has since evolved into the management structure of the present-day Church.
I think that is better. Controversy can go in the next paragraph as it interrupts the flow of the first and the back and forth makes things choppy and awkward. -- Justanother 02:21, 6 April 2007 (UTC)Lafayette Ronald Hubbard ( 13 March 1911 – 24 January 1986), better known as L. Ron Hubbard, was a well-known American author of the pre-World War II Golden Age of pulp fiction. He served as an officer in the United States Navy during World War II and afterwards, in 1950, wrote the immensely popular self-help book Dianetics: The Modern Science of Mental Health. In 1953, Hubbard founded of the Church of Scientology to forward his work on Scientology, an outgrowth of Dianetics. He continued researching and expanding the concepts of Dianetics and Scientology and setting policy for the growing Church of Scientology until his January 24, 1986 death at a private California ranch.
Justanother you really appear to be trying to put your bias aside, but by not mentioning any criticism or controversy it creates a unbalance in his favor. Respectfully, most people don't see him the same way as Scientologists do. Life on the sea aside, the way I envisioned keeping the three paragraphs NPOV was like this:
Your intro's make the balance look more like this:
WP:NPOV is about a balance between the various POVs. Anynobody 02:49, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
I'm sure there are some non-Scientologists who see Hubbard in a relatively positive way, however it's difficult for me to believe what is on the site you've pointed out because it doesn't mention a context for the people's comments, or when they said it. As an example, the site claims to be current as of 2006 and cites: James Barnes Safety Officer Rocketdyne Division Rockwell Aerospace Boeing bought Rockwell Aerospace in 1996. Do you have any references to any of these people directly? It goes back to the conversation we had on your talk page a while ago, the key is to find a source that has no interest in either trashing or worshiping him (like the Navy).
Acknowledging that some non-Cos people think of him in a positive way, you must also acknowledge that many people think of him in a negative way. We are supposed to write in a balanced way, that means not just talk about his positive traits OR his negative but rather to strike a balance. This is the only problem I have with your suggestions, they make no mention of the opposing view and only concentrates on how Scientology sees him. Anynobody 04:56, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
<< Ever read the Moulton testimony? I suggest you do. Hubbard, his crew, another ship, blimps. All making positive contact; sonar (not magnetic) and magnetic, hearing screws, seeing periscopes, diesel slicks. And what was that disallowed bit about a shore observer? Golly, maybe there was a sub chase. And what do we have to counter all that evidence that the chase actually occurred?? A CYA (Cover Your Ass) from some pissed-off higher-up?? Well, that is enough for us to smear the man and his crew and everyone else involved. Silly critics. --Justanother 21:16, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
The above said, I do agree with your idea that my original version, while NPOV-ish, is somewhat one-sided. As I respect the man for what he accomplished and tend to forgive his peccadillos, it is difficult for me to " write for the enemy" in this instance. However a line with the notable and overarching criticism of Hubbard and his creation (Scientology) is not inappropriate in the lead paragraph. Why don't some of you guys go ahead and add that to my draft and we can go from there. What you, AN (since you are the only one with the problem), should understand is that, in some cases, while my POV would prevent me from creating something, my adherence to NPOV requires that I respect the POV of others. That is an important point for you to understand, AN, because it may be the point that throws you about me. My POV affects those bits I create, from scratch as it were (I don't have to write for the enemy if I don't care to), and other editors should review my work, as I review the work of other editors. My POV does not affect how I treat the creations of others because I evaluate them against the policies of Wikipedia, not against my POV (something some anti-Scientologists do also but that needs more work). What this means is that while I do not mind writing for the enemy in certain instances, like writing up Hubbard's military career, or his schooling, I am not about to write some overarching criticism of the man when I believe that he made one of the most important contributions to Man of any individual and that he dedicated his life to the effort despite the vast forces of governments and institutions that tried to shut him down. He succeeded and others are carrying on his work, that work being simply to make people happier and more able to influence their lives and the lives of others to the betterment of all. And plenty of non-Scientologists agree with that summary. And, yes, there are many that agree with the summary that he was a con-man. But, IMO, those people have mostly simply considered only superficial criticisms of the man (do we really care about his Naval career?) and the complaints of a very small number of vocal critics (a number of which edit here) and totally discount the testimony of tens of thousand of people that have been helped by Hubbard. That is just weird but that is indicative of how things work on the internet. Thanks. -- Justanother 15:36, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
ps, to AN, you are wasting your time over at User:Orsini/Sandbox3 and User talk:Orsini/Sandbox3 and it reflects badly on you and all those involved over there, for example and all the other clues people have been trying to send you to knock off your preoccupation with me, like here or, more directly, here ("Smee and Anynobody, let go of your grievance - Geogre") and here (for me it merely comes across an effort to prolong a dispute. - pgk). I can find others if you need me to. Hopefully you can take good advice and "let go". I bring this up not because I have any fear of a User RfC (actually one part of me would love you to take that RfC live) but because I really do not want to waste any more of my time and the time of others with this silly personal bickering. -- Justanother 15:36, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
All the above said; here ya go:
Lafayette Ronald Hubbard ( 13 March 1911 – 24 January 1986), better known as L. Ron Hubbard, was a well-known American author of the pre-World War II Golden Age of pulp fiction. He served as an officer in the United States Navy during World War II and afterwards, in 1950, wrote the immensely popular self-help book Dianetics: The Modern Science of Mental Health. In 1953, Hubbard founded of the Church of Scientology to forward his work on Scientology, an outgrowth of Dianetics. He continued researching and expanding the concepts of Dianetics and Scientology and setting policy for the growing Church of Scientology until his January 24, 1986 death at a private California ranch. While many people hold Hubbard in the highest esteem and have attested to the efficacy of his Dianetics and Scientology techniques, he has also been attacked as a charlatan and his Church of Scientology called a dangerous cult that practices little more than brainwashing.
How is that? My only question is should he be called a "con-man" or would charlatan or ??? be better. I think charlatan. -- Justanother 16:04, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
Anynobody 23:09, 6 April 2007 (UTC)Lafayette Ronald Hubbard ( 13 March 1911 – 24 January 1986), better known as L. Ron Hubbard, was an American author during the pre-World War II Golden Age of pulp fiction. He served as an officer in the United States Navy during World War II and afterwards, in 1950, wrote the self-help book Dianetics: The Modern Science of Mental Health. Three years later, Hubbard founded the Church of Scientology, an outgrowth of Dianetics. He continued researching and expanding the concepts of Dianetics and Scientology until his January 24, 1986 death at a private California ranch. He is held high regard by Scientologists who say the efficacy of his Dianetics and Scientology techniques have helped them live better lives. Skeptics and even some nations have shown him to be a charlatan and liar by studying his claims and writing.
The same people have called the Church of Scientology a cult that practices little more than brainwashing and profiteering.
Here ya go. There are governments, scholars, doctors, people on both sides so no need to expand, people is good enough, -- Justanother 02:41, 7 April 2007 (UTC)Lafayette Ronald Hubbard ( 13 March 1911 – 24 January 1986), better known as L. Ron Hubbard, was a well-known American author of the pre-World War II Golden Age of pulp fiction. He served as an officer in the United States Navy during World War II and afterwards, in 1950, wrote the popular self-help book Dianetics: The Modern Science of Mental Health. In 1953, Hubbard founded the Church of Scientology to promote an outgrowth of Dianetics that he dubbed Scientology and which he defined as an "applied religious philosophy". He continued researching and expanding the concepts of Dianetics and Scientology and setting policy for the growing Church of Scientology until his January 24, 1986 death at a private California ranch. While many people hold Hubbard in the highest esteem and have attested to the efficacy of his Dianetics and Scientology techniques, he has also been branded as a charlatan and a liar by critics.
This bit has little place in the article, certainly not where it currently sits.
Please take it out, it is irrelevant to this article. -- Justanother 23:34, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
In 1984 Justice Latey, ruling [8] in the High court of London, stated in his judgment that Scientology is "dangerous, immoral, sinister and corrupt" and "has its real objective money and power for Mr. Hubbard". [1] Justice Latey also addressed Hubbard's representation of himself:
... he has made these, among other false claims:
That he was a much decorated war hero. He was not.
That he commanded a corvette squadron. He did not.
That he was awarded the Purple Heart, a gallantry decoration for those wounded in action. He was not wounded and was not decorated.
That he was crippled and blinded in the war and cured himself with Dianetic technique. He was not crippled and was not blinded.
That he was sent by U.S. Naval Intelligence to break up a black magic ring in California. He was not. He was himself a member of that occult group and practiced ritual sexual magic in it.
That he was a graduate of George Washington University and an atomic physicist. The facts are that he completed only one year of college and failed the one course on nuclear physics in which he enrolled.
There is no dispute about any of this. The evidence is unchallenged. [1]<!-p. 339 -->
This material is speaking directly about the subject of this article, and is highly pertinent to the article itself and should therefore remain in the article. Smee 16:37, 5 April 2007 (UTC).
I see
Misou,
COFS, and
Justanother's point about the statement being
Obiter dicta. Since it was a child custody case, Hubbard and Scientology weren't really the subject, so the stuff from Judge Latey should be excluded. I changed my mind, see
below.
Anynobody
00:18, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
However what he said was true, and has been discussed in court cases about the CoS. Here is an example from the 1984 Armstrong trial:
[...]In addition to violating and abusing its own members civil rights, the organization over the years with its 'Fair Game' doctrine has harassed and abused those persons not in [Scientology] whom it perceives as enemies. The organization clearly is schizophrenic and paranoid, and this bizarre combination seems to be a reflection of its founder [L. Ron Hubbard]. The evidence portrays a man who has been virtually a pathological liar when it comes to his history, background and achievements. The writings and documents in evidence additionally reflect his egoism, greed, avarice, lust for power, and vindictiveness and aggressiveness against persons perceived by him to be disloyal or hostile." -- Judge Paul G. Breckenridge, Jr., 6/20/84 (Scientology v. Armstrong, affirmed on appeal 232 Cal.App.3rd 1060, 283 Cal.Rptr. 917.)
As to Judge Latey's points about Hubbard's claims of military achievement, they can be disproven through the Navy:
That he was a much decorated war hero. He was not.
That he commanded a corvette squadron. He did not. That he was awarded the Purple Heart, a gallantry decoration for those wounded in action. He was not wounded and was not decorated. That he was crippled and blinded in the war and cured himself with Dianetic technique. He was not crippled and was not blinded.
That he was sent by U.S. Naval Intelligence to break up a black magic ring in California. He was not. He was himself a member of that occult group and practiced ritual sexual magic in it.
and this from academic records:
That he was a graduate of George Washington University and an atomic physicist. The facts are that he completed only one year of college and failed the one course on nuclear physics in which he enrolled.
As I've said, there are lots of other sources out there. When one ends up in court as much as he did there are probably other options for judicial sources. Anynobody 05:09, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
That's my point COFS, I understand that Obiter dicta is a judges opinion not related to the ruling. There are cases where the court has made a ruling, like Judge Paul G. Breckenridge above. (It isn't Obiter dicta if it's in the ruling). Anynobody 05:40, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
Not when it's the subject at hand, Latey had to decide on a child custody issue between relatives. Breckenridge was making a decision on whether the CoS had a case against Armstrong. In the former Scientology or Hubbard aren't the primary issue. In the later case they are. The judge didn't believe them, and explained why. That is a judgement or ruling, and when he/she gives their opinion regarding something like that it is not Obiter Dicta COFS. Anynobody 05:51, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
In the interest of clarity:
There are plenty of cases in which the CoS or Hubbard was involved where a judge's opinion would not be Obiter Dicta since Hubbard/CoS are a party to the case. Anynobody 01:50, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
The case was brought by the CoS and Mrs. Hubbard against Gerald Armstrong which the Church lost. The statement I quoted was part of Breckenridge's reasons for ruling the way he did. His opinions about Hubbard and the CoS apply directly to his decision, which is why it's Ratio decidendi.
In this matter heretofore taken under submission, the Court announces its intended decision as follows: As to the tort causes of action, plaintiff, and plaintiff in intervention are to take nothing, and the defendant is entitled to Judgment and costs. As to the equitable actions, the court finds that neither plaintiff has clean hands, and that at least as of this time, are not entitled to the immediate return of any document or objects previously retained by the court clerk.
(The Latin means "the reason (or rationale) for the decision.") Anynobody 05:15, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
Respectfully Misou, that is not what the law says. Ratio decidendi: "It is a legal phrase which refers to the legal, moral, political, and social principles used by a court to compose the rationale of a particular judgment. Unlike obiter dicta, the principles of judgment for ratio decidendi stand as potentially binding precedent, through the principle of stare decisis." The judge found in favor of the defendant for among other reasons:
[...]In addition to violating and abusing its own members civil rights, the organization over the years with its 'Fair Game' doctrine has harassed and abused those persons not in [Scientology] whom it perceives as enemies. The organization clearly is schizophrenic and paranoid, and this bizarre combination seems to be a reflection of its founder [L. Ron Hubbard]. The evidence portrays a man who has been virtually a pathological liar when it comes to his history, background and achievements. The writings and documents in evidence additionally reflect his egoism, greed, avarice, lust for power, and vindictiveness and aggressiveness against persons perceived by him to be disloyal or hostile."
Breckenridge ruled in favor of the defendant, Armstrong, because of the opinion he formed about the CoS and Hubbard during the case.
Latey's remarks were obiter dicta because the CoS was neither a plaintiff, defendant, or participant in the hearing he was ruling on. Breckenridge's comments were ratio decidendi because the CoS was the plaintiff in the case he was ruling on as such his opinion of them and Hubbard actually does pertain to the case at hand. Anynobody 06:37, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
Do you happen to know which one does that? I'd be happy to take a look at it, but I must point out that in this discussion we are only talking about two terms. Obiter dicta, non-related commentary from a judge before ruling. Ratio decidendi, reasons a judge makes his/her ruling. Anynobody 23:14, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
Here is the basic syllogism being offered by those who believe that Judge Latey's assessment of Hubbard must go out as obiter dicta:
Now, the first big problem with the above syllogism is with the first premise. A number of editors have asserted that the quoted lines from Judge Latey are obiter dicta -- but many editors think they know a lot more about the law than they actually do. I have no reason to believe that COFS (who put forth this issue of obiter dicta in the first place) is a legal expert, and even if he claimed to be, the recent problems with Essjay should caution us against accepting any such claims casually.
However, even if that premise was not so doubtful, the syllogism is still no good, because it depends on the enthymeme "No statements which are not legally binding meet Wikipedia's requirements for reliable sources" and this, to understate just a bit, would certainly surprise the hell out of Jimbo Wales. So far as I know there has never been a single story in the New York Times which has ever been legally binding by virtue of being printed. Are we to take from this that New York Times stories aren't reliable sources? Like I said, it would really surprise Jimbo Wales to learn that this rule has somehow been passed by stealth when he wasn't looking. -- Antaeus Feldspar 23:32, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
An obiter dictum (plural obiter dicta, often referred to simply as dicta), Latin for a statement said "by the way", is a remark or observation made by a judge that, although included in the body of the court's opinion, does not form a necessary part of the court's decision. In a court opinion, obiter dicta include, but are not limited to, words "introduced by way of illustration, or analogy or argument." [9]
Instead of exhausting my reverts, I would appreciate if User:COFS could enlighten us how the segment he deleted [7] and "...so we see the African tribesman, with his complete contempt for the truth, and his emphasis on brutality and savagery..."<ref>Hubbard, L. Ron, ''Scientology: Fundamentals of Thought''. Copenhagen: New Era Publications, 1997. {{ISBN|1900944979}}, p. 77</ref> is out of context. -- Tilman 18:49, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
Hubbard, L. Ron, Scientology: Fundamentals of Thought. Copenhagen: New Era Publications, 1997.
ISBN
1900944979
. It is simply a fact that despite the prohibitions against altering Hubbard's words, they have been altered, with different editions changing Hubbard's phrasings and sometimes leaving out inconvenient sections. For instance, let me show you the "tribesman" paragraph, complete, as it appears in my copy of Fundamentals:
- Self-created data is, then, not a bad thing, neither is education, but one without the other to hold it in some balance will bring about a no-game condition or a no-civilization. Just as individuals can be seen, by observing nations, so we see the African tribesman, with his complete contempt for truth and his emphasis on brutality and savagery for others but not himself, is a no-civilization. And we see at the other extreme China, slavishly dedicated to ancient scholars, incapable of generating within herself sufficient rulers to continue, without bloodshed, a nation.
Hubbard, L. Ron, Scientology: The Fundamentals of Thought. Los Angeles: Bridge Publications, 1997.
ISBN
0-88404-503-X
and the paragraph in question is in the middle of page 113. And here in the same copy are two paragraphs comparing the "white" to "yellow and brown people", which occupy roughly the bottom half of page 35 and the upper third of page 36:
- Unlike yellow and brown people, the white does not usually believe he can get attention from matter or objects. The yellow and brown believe for the most part (and it is all a matter of consideration) that rocks, trees, walls, etc., can give them attention. The white man seldom believes this and so is likely to become anxious about people.
- Thus the white saves people, prevents famine, flood, disease and revolution for people as the only purveyors6 of attention are scarce. The white goes further. He often believes that he can get attention only from whites and that yellow and brown people's attention is worthless. Thus the yellow and brown races are not very progressive, but, by and large, saner. And the white race is progressive but more frantic. The yellow and brown races do not understand white concern for "bad conditions" since what are a few million dead men? There are plenty of identities and there is plenty of attention, they think. The white can't understand them. Nor can they understand the white.
- [For completeness's sake, the footnote on page 35 referenced: "6. purveyors: providers or suppliers."]
New comment: I feel that Justanother is misrepresenting my statement by quoting only part of a sentence, here is the rest: "...not the least of which was at best a bad memory of his life at worst his bald faced lies about it." I'm saying he was human, and tended to paint an inaccurate picture of his life. Though I think he was a liar, if evidence were shown that he had some kind of psychiatric condition that caused it I'd change my opinion. Anynobody 23:36, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
I've actually come to that conclusion based on his own writings, several primary sources, and the ever changing biography the CoS puts out. Here are a few examples of the info which convinced me that Hubbard was a liar, Justanother: Sourced text from article:
Off Wikipedia info:
With all due respect, you are only citing Scientology sources for his "exploits" and those have changed as previous ones proved inaccurate or outright lies. Frankly the difference between us is that if one can find proof from a neutral source that he WAS everything he said he was I might change my opinion. You will probably never change your opinion of him no matter what sources can be found, since you seem to believe people who don't believe everything he said are editing here under an agenda. I guess you don't realize it, but you are actually the one who is editing from a one sided view and editing with an agenda. Point our recent edit counts: Justanother Anynobody. I've noticed that it takes a much longer time and more edits to get anything done on a Scientology related page not inline with the views of the CoS no matter how well sourced. Anynobody 03:07, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
Let's assume you are right, there are a few things I'd need some help understanding based on direct knowledge:
There are other questions of course, but these will suffice for a start. Anynobody 03:59, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
Just to inject a bit of context here. Hubbard was talking about animism; the concept that there is a spiritual nature to what we in the west (yes, us "whites") call "inanimate objects". African ("brown"), American Indian ("red", though LRH does not mention them), and Asian ("yellow") races often hold beliefs that are animistic; e.g. Shinto or shamanism ("It could be said that shamans are the experts employed by animists or animist communities.") It was Ron's belief that the brown and yellow therefore take a different view of human life than the whites. He does not say that because of their race, he says it because of their beliefs. Not race. Beliefs. If you read the quote, you see that he considers the brown and yellow races "saner" than the white. So if he was a racist then I guess he was anti-white?? Now for my opinion. Do you know how much of our current GNP goes to "health care"; i.e. prolonging life. I can see a future where all activity is directed at health care to support overpriced drugs and treatments to prolong life with all wealth concentrated in drug companies, "health care" providers, and insurance companies (wait, I think we are almost there already.) Why does our society have to spend so much on prolonging life? Two reasons, IMO. 1) The current trend toward materialism and atheism attach inordinate importance to eking out another day of life and 2) "whites" believe that they exist in a bubble disconnected from the inanimate universe, animals and plants, and even other races of man. The latter point is what LRH was addressing. So rather than talk about what he was addressing, we want to ignore that and nanny nanny boo boo, he did not use PC terminology in a pre-PC age. And why do we do that? Because, as another said - "The incorrect and counterproductive consideration that seems to pervade the community is this: Scientology is not a subject - it is instead controversy about a pseudo subject." -- Justanother 18:07, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
(Among occultists today, it is widely accepted that Hubbard derived a large part of 'Dianetics' from Golden Dawn occult ideas such as the Holy Guardian Angel.[citation needed])
Here is the only citation needed tag I found in the article. Can this be cited? Does anyone know where to find a citation for this??
Anynobody
10:51, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
Since nobody was able to cite this, I've removed it: (Among occultists today, it is widely accepted that Hubbard derived a large part of 'Dianetics' from Golden Dawn occult ideas such as the Holy Guardian Angel. citation needed) Anynobody 23:52, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
I hadn't heard much about the specifics of Jack Parsons occult side; I did know of him from his JPL accomplishments. I read a bit about him after you made your post, and I think you are most likely right about Ordo Templi Orientis "inspiring" Hubbard. If we could find a citation I wouldn't mind adding it back in, corrected of course.
I didn't realize he was telling people that "Navy Intelligence" sent him to break up the group, I must say I found that claim hilarious. What I found so funny was not his claim to Naval Intelligence , but that his claim that the ONI gives a crap about cults: "Join the Navy, see the world, learn new things, and battle cults!" At that time they would have been busy trying to learn as much as possible about the Soviet fleet. Anynobody 02:55, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
There have been a number of books about Parsons published recently; I haven't had time to get my hands on any of them, unfortunately. One of them might have some notes on Hubbard and Parsons' relationship, and possibly in less overwrought terms than some of the literature on Hubbard tends to use. -- FOo 04:05, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
Cat, what's your source for Hubbard knowing Parsons before the war? The letter that Parsons wrote to Crowley saying that Sara "has transferred her sexual affection to Ron" also says that Parsons only met Hubbard "about three months ago", though he described Hubbard as "a writer and explorer of whom I had known for some time". While there seem to be some weird discrepancies about just when that letter was written, Parsons didn't start up with Sara until after his wife Helen left him in 1944, so it doesn't seem possible that three months previous to that letter was before the war. -- Antaeus Feldspar 07:18, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
Last night 00:07, Misou added this, starting with "(→Legal difficulties and life on the high seas - found first one (hooray to online databases))":
In 1978, as part of a case against three French Scientologists Hubbard was convicted for "making fraudulent promises" and sentenced to four years in jail and a 35,000₣ fine by a French court. Hubbard - who had not been defended in the trial at all and had not been in the country during the whole time - refused to serve his jail time or pay his fine. The case was appealed later - in 1980 - with all fraud charges being dropped.<ref>Sunday Star (Toronto), 2 March 1980: "Scientology gets nod from court. Paris (Reuter) - The Paris Appeal Court has recognized the U.S.-based Church of Scientology as a religion and cleared a former leader of its French branch of fraud.". Also in International Herald Tribune, 3 March 1980</ref>
The problem is that the only leader of the French branch whose conviction was discharged 1980-02-29 was Georges Andreu, not Hubbard. The other three convictions, including Hubbard's, were confirmed. (Andreu's conviction was discharged mainly due to his being 22 when named president of Scientology in France and merely a subordinate.) The claim that the "Paris Appeal Court has recognized the U.S.-based Church of Scientology as a religion" also seems very doubtful, but I haven't dug into that yet.
The mention of an online database (certainly not the Toronto Star's, which only goes back to 1985) and at least one error of fact make me question this reference. AndroidCat 15:27, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
Another ref problem with Hubbard's mother's name Ledora/Dora: "Biography issued 7 April 1977 by Liz Gablehouse". How can anyone verify that rather sparse entry? Since she was a Sea Org member, I assume that this was issued by CoS. Was it actually published in any real sense? As well, although this is a minor detail, CoS's accounts of Hubbard's life haven't been terrible accurate. Bare Faced Messiah uses Ledora. AndroidCat 01:50, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
Justanother, would you please explain why the links you propose removing violate the guideline Wikipedia:External links? Anynobody 03:44, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
I returned the CoS links to the page. They may be full of it, but that's still their position. Not having them makes the section very POV. Anynobody 00:59, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
Anynobody, you claim the following: The remainder of Hubbard's wartime service was spent ashore in the continental United States. He was mustered out of the active service list in late 1945 and continued to draw disability pay for arthritis, bursitis, and conjunctivitis for years afterwards, long after he claimed to have discovered the secret of how to cure these ailments.
The "source" for all of that is "reader's digest". Now, some years ago I challenged the statements about Hubbard's disabilities and what I could get were some documents from U.S. Naval Hospital, for example of 1 Dec 45, L.D. Morgan Cmdr. USNR writing a medical report on Hubbard, incl. "ulcer", "eyesight failing" and later "getting worse", and "lame in right hip", "infection in bone" (not joint, meaning bursitis). I can't find that in your report but mine is lacking anything about "arthritis, bursitis" while the eyesight thing might be the "conjunctivitis" you have there. Any idea why that is? Misou 21:45, 19 April 2007 (UTC) PS: Good news! My flatbed scanner is supposed to arrive tomorrow. Cross fingers that I am back home by then. Misou 21:45, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
I want to put the article in time sequence and started with the family life parts. This one is located in the "controversy" section and might be taken out from there. What I am missing is the year LRH married Northrup and some details around that. I am planning to fix that somewhen later today or tomorrow. Any protests or considerations? COFS 23:59, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
In later research the Sunday Times in UK (1969) found out that Hubbard's contact to O.T.O. had been an intelligence operation for the U.S. Government to prevent leaks of confidential information to O.T.O. (midst of the Cold War Parsons was working as a solid fuel rocket scientist in California)<ref>Sunday times "Scientology: New Light on Crowley", 28 December 1969, (Hubbard) "...went to life at the house and investigated the black magic rites and the general situation ... . Parsons wrote to Crowley in England about Hubbard. Crowley "The Beast 666" evidently detected an enemy and warned Parsons. This is all proven by the correspondence unearthed by the Sunday Times. Hubbard's mission was successful ... . The black magic group was dispersed ... ."]</ref>
COFS, I'm sure you know very well that was a statement printed as is from the Church of Scientology, not part of any research by The Sunday Times, and that they did not retract their previous story of 5 October 1969, SCIENTOLOGY: Revealed for the first time. . . The odd beginning of Ron Hubbard's career. AndroidCat 00:30, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
Out of sequence reply to above
To answer your last question first, Hubbard did. The agent's notes from the interview are included along with Hubbard's correspondence, and the FBI's notes on him: FBI and L. Ron Hubbard. If you read all the letters, the general FBI impression of him is pretty clear (Hoover believed Hubbard's first letter about Nazi spies in 1940 or 41, and the FBI found nothing to corroborate his claims. Later the FBI stopped answering him at all.) Hubbard became very concerned about communist infiltration of his organization, as also documented in the letters.
I wasn't saying the FBI stuff ought to be included necessarily, I was pointing out a flaw in your logic here:
I get you. As the story goes Parsons was a solid fuel rocket engineer working on military projects and whoever (ONI? FBI?) feared that Crowley could send them a rocket, so to say. I would be concerned too, especially right after WWII and in the beginning of the Cold War the insecurity must have been high. This is not really an espionage issue but more public safety (they didn't know about AUM, but with a little imagination...). LRH had a FBI ID at some point in the 1940/50s. I forget the date on it but maybe I can find it (he will tell some anecdotes about that in several lectures later). COFS 02:05, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
This whole statement is WP:OR but I didn't think you wanted it included in the article. Anynobody 22:42, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
Link to ref. This credential looks like something a security guard would be issued, and the link describes the special officers as having no authority beyond citizens arrest. (I have seen armed security guards, bear in mind armed doesn't necessarily mean with a gun.)
Was he a volunteer or was he paid? Anynobody 05:16, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
Although his employer of record was the Metropolitan Detective Agency, his ultimate license came from LAPD
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This section added by 194.57.219.129 has no references in the proper format, uses other Wiki articles as references, reads like someone's personal essay writing and has serious POV problems. "The pathetic end of life of Ron Hubbard, the numerous injection marks on his body and the drugs found in his corpse seem to strengthen the sad picture painted by the testimonies above." While I would welcome a section on Hubbard's drug use, I think that there are too many problems with it right now to let it stay before a massive cleanup. AndroidCat 22:09, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
Sounds pretty similar to the accounts I recall reading in Sunday supplements. I agree there are style problems but the bulk of the text seems pretty accurate to me. MarkThomas 22:11, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
Hi, for Messiah or Madman (B. Corydon), full text is here online: [1]. However, in this format, page is n°54. I'll try to find the other texts online since I've time... 194.57.219.129 18 April 2007 see chapter 'Scientology at sea' for J. Atack in APOBS 194.57.219.129 18 April 2007
Misou, I've completed one reference, other quotes are from the authors themselves or from interviews with the people they quote. Perhaps Miller, Corydon, Armstrong, Downsborough, Atack are complete liars, and Ron Hubbard has an enormous sens of humour (and he really had, sometimes). However, they basically described the same kind of person, and if all of them can lie, their testimonies have to be considered anyway. About my ID, I can't have one because IP I use is not only mine, but the IP of my university so a lot of people can use it, it's not useful to create a special ID... I'm not hiding, no more than you (Misou is not your real name, is it?). Facts and quotes and references are important, not who I am. However, I'm not German, sorry:-) 194.57.219.129 19 April 2007
Misou, almost everything you pointed out to 194.57.219.129 can be said about the information the CoS puts out about him, just in a much more "cheery" way (the opposite of "smeary"). Watch: They have been written for specific purposes at the time and were appropriately "cheery". What's much more interesting is to see the original documents the books are based on, to see the context and exact wording.That is what I meant with "Do you have the original data (not the digested stuff in the books)?" I'm all for primary sources, but books are necessary here too. They're secondary sources. Anynobody 09:40, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
The the picture mentioned of a totally exhausted Hubbard is out there, here's a rendering of it: (I have seen this photograph before, don't remember where but I'm pretty sure it can be found.)
. Anynobody 09:31, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
Unless there is a source indicating the picture is fake, and assuming I find and post the photo in question, would you be able to tell if it's fake? If so would you then be able to explain why it is or isn't? The statement wasn't discussing his appearance in the 1960s it was talking about his appearance in 1985 at the time of the article's publishing. Anynobody 22:38, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
The suggested format for a lead paragraph can and should include discussion regarding crticism of the article's subject. It also points out that a good lead should include references to each sections discussed.
WP:LEAD#Writing about concepts When writing a lead section about ideas and concepts (such as "truth"), it can be helpful to introduce the topic as follows:
WP:LEAD#Suggestions The lead section should concisely reflect the content of the article as a whole. For many articles, these suggestions can be helpful in writing an appropriate lead:
I don't see any reason why we can't come to an agreement about this issue and get that tag removed. Anynobody 22:22, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
WP:LEAD says that an article greater than 30,000 characters is very large.
My word processor counted: 37,889 with no spaces. 44,965 with. I copied and pasted all sections from the article page except the lead, the TOC, references, and links/categories. It also counted characters that shouldn't count like [edit] and reference numbers. Even deducting those this article is well above 30,000 making 3,4, or even maybe 5 paragraphs appropriate.
Would it be inappropriate to split this article up? It was proposed at Sylvia Browne to make a subpage dedicated to her controversial biographical aspects and criticism, and it seems to have worked well. I've noticed that like her, there seems to be a dispute about more or less every aspect of Hubbard's life. Anynobody 23:03, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
One thing I have to say for the opening paragraph as it is now is that it makes you want to read on. :-) Steve Dufour 04:16, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
The lead section here now could not stand by itself. You're right that we don't need to list all the genres he wrote in, which is why the opening sentence should just say he was a writer. I think the lead needs expanding but it doesn't need to be so specific. This is also why I didn't include the subsections in the list of things it should mention above.The lead should be capable of standing alone as a concise overview of the article, establishing context, explaining why the subject is interesting or notable, and briefly describing its notable controversies, if there are any.
Anynobody 01:23, 5 April 2007 (UTC)20:35, 8 November 2006 CloudNine (Talk | contribs) m (Lead section is too short for an article of this length)
Lee Harvey Oswald was actually a bad example to cite as a good lead, because it doesn't mention he was a qualified USMC sharpshooter which is pretty relevant when discussing a man who is notable for what he is.
I get the impression you think that I want to include the whole article, I do not. However I think as mmany major sections should be mentioned as possible and some of the text reworded:
Lafayette Ronald Hubbard ( 13 March 1911 – 24 January 1986), better known as L. Ron Hubbard, was primarily known as an American freelance writer [1] [2] [3]and founder of the Church of Scientology based on the ideas put forth in his book Dianetics. He was also an officer in the United States Navy during the Second World War and would go on to command a fleet of private Scientology vessels after later legal difficulties in the U.S. dictated his temporary relocation. Hubbard used the opportunity to form an elite group within Scientology he called the Sea Org. He continued writing and expanding the concepts on which he founded the Church until his January 24, 1986 death at a private California ranch. Hubbard was a controversial public figure, with many details of his life disputed.
The Church of Scientology official biographies present Hubbard as "larger than life, attracted to people, liked by people, dynamic, charismatic and immensely capable in a dozen fields". [4] However, the Church's account of Hubbard's life has changed over time, with editions of the biographical account published over the years differing from each other. [5]
In contrast, biographies of Hubbard by independent journalists and accounts by former Scientologists paint a much less flattering, and often highly critical, picture of Hubbard and in many cases contradict the material presented by the Church. [6] [7] [1]
This is closer to what I'd like to see. Calling him a writer instead of a Pulp fiction and Science fiction magazine writer, dedicating one paragraph to praise and the last for criticism. Anynobody 06:18, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
Please tell me what you think. -- Justanother 13:07, 5 April 2007 (UTC)Lafayette Ronald Hubbard ( 13 March 1911 – 24 January 1986), better known as L. Ron Hubbard, was a well-known American author of the pre-World War II pulp fiction era that went on to write the immensely popular self-help book Dianetics in 1950 and to found of the Church of Scientology in 1953. He served as an officer in the United States Navy during World War II and later commanded a small fleet of private Scientology vessels manned by his Sea Org, a group that became the management structure of the present-day Church. He continued writing and expanding the concepts on which he founded the Church until his January 24, 1986 death at a private California ranch.
I'm not saying that we need to fill the lead with negative information but in order to truly be NPOV the critics must be addressed too. Anynobody 01:51, 6 April 2007 (UTC)He was an avid seaman and served as an officer in the United States Navy during World War II. Later he commanded a small fleet of private Scientology vessels during a particularly controversial period in his life. At that time he created the Sea Org, which started as simply the crews who manned the vessels but has since evolved into the management structure of the present-day Church.
I think that is better. Controversy can go in the next paragraph as it interrupts the flow of the first and the back and forth makes things choppy and awkward. -- Justanother 02:21, 6 April 2007 (UTC)Lafayette Ronald Hubbard ( 13 March 1911 – 24 January 1986), better known as L. Ron Hubbard, was a well-known American author of the pre-World War II Golden Age of pulp fiction. He served as an officer in the United States Navy during World War II and afterwards, in 1950, wrote the immensely popular self-help book Dianetics: The Modern Science of Mental Health. In 1953, Hubbard founded of the Church of Scientology to forward his work on Scientology, an outgrowth of Dianetics. He continued researching and expanding the concepts of Dianetics and Scientology and setting policy for the growing Church of Scientology until his January 24, 1986 death at a private California ranch.
Justanother you really appear to be trying to put your bias aside, but by not mentioning any criticism or controversy it creates a unbalance in his favor. Respectfully, most people don't see him the same way as Scientologists do. Life on the sea aside, the way I envisioned keeping the three paragraphs NPOV was like this:
Your intro's make the balance look more like this:
WP:NPOV is about a balance between the various POVs. Anynobody 02:49, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
I'm sure there are some non-Scientologists who see Hubbard in a relatively positive way, however it's difficult for me to believe what is on the site you've pointed out because it doesn't mention a context for the people's comments, or when they said it. As an example, the site claims to be current as of 2006 and cites: James Barnes Safety Officer Rocketdyne Division Rockwell Aerospace Boeing bought Rockwell Aerospace in 1996. Do you have any references to any of these people directly? It goes back to the conversation we had on your talk page a while ago, the key is to find a source that has no interest in either trashing or worshiping him (like the Navy).
Acknowledging that some non-Cos people think of him in a positive way, you must also acknowledge that many people think of him in a negative way. We are supposed to write in a balanced way, that means not just talk about his positive traits OR his negative but rather to strike a balance. This is the only problem I have with your suggestions, they make no mention of the opposing view and only concentrates on how Scientology sees him. Anynobody 04:56, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
<< Ever read the Moulton testimony? I suggest you do. Hubbard, his crew, another ship, blimps. All making positive contact; sonar (not magnetic) and magnetic, hearing screws, seeing periscopes, diesel slicks. And what was that disallowed bit about a shore observer? Golly, maybe there was a sub chase. And what do we have to counter all that evidence that the chase actually occurred?? A CYA (Cover Your Ass) from some pissed-off higher-up?? Well, that is enough for us to smear the man and his crew and everyone else involved. Silly critics. --Justanother 21:16, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
The above said, I do agree with your idea that my original version, while NPOV-ish, is somewhat one-sided. As I respect the man for what he accomplished and tend to forgive his peccadillos, it is difficult for me to " write for the enemy" in this instance. However a line with the notable and overarching criticism of Hubbard and his creation (Scientology) is not inappropriate in the lead paragraph. Why don't some of you guys go ahead and add that to my draft and we can go from there. What you, AN (since you are the only one with the problem), should understand is that, in some cases, while my POV would prevent me from creating something, my adherence to NPOV requires that I respect the POV of others. That is an important point for you to understand, AN, because it may be the point that throws you about me. My POV affects those bits I create, from scratch as it were (I don't have to write for the enemy if I don't care to), and other editors should review my work, as I review the work of other editors. My POV does not affect how I treat the creations of others because I evaluate them against the policies of Wikipedia, not against my POV (something some anti-Scientologists do also but that needs more work). What this means is that while I do not mind writing for the enemy in certain instances, like writing up Hubbard's military career, or his schooling, I am not about to write some overarching criticism of the man when I believe that he made one of the most important contributions to Man of any individual and that he dedicated his life to the effort despite the vast forces of governments and institutions that tried to shut him down. He succeeded and others are carrying on his work, that work being simply to make people happier and more able to influence their lives and the lives of others to the betterment of all. And plenty of non-Scientologists agree with that summary. And, yes, there are many that agree with the summary that he was a con-man. But, IMO, those people have mostly simply considered only superficial criticisms of the man (do we really care about his Naval career?) and the complaints of a very small number of vocal critics (a number of which edit here) and totally discount the testimony of tens of thousand of people that have been helped by Hubbard. That is just weird but that is indicative of how things work on the internet. Thanks. -- Justanother 15:36, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
ps, to AN, you are wasting your time over at User:Orsini/Sandbox3 and User talk:Orsini/Sandbox3 and it reflects badly on you and all those involved over there, for example and all the other clues people have been trying to send you to knock off your preoccupation with me, like here or, more directly, here ("Smee and Anynobody, let go of your grievance - Geogre") and here (for me it merely comes across an effort to prolong a dispute. - pgk). I can find others if you need me to. Hopefully you can take good advice and "let go". I bring this up not because I have any fear of a User RfC (actually one part of me would love you to take that RfC live) but because I really do not want to waste any more of my time and the time of others with this silly personal bickering. -- Justanother 15:36, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
All the above said; here ya go:
Lafayette Ronald Hubbard ( 13 March 1911 – 24 January 1986), better known as L. Ron Hubbard, was a well-known American author of the pre-World War II Golden Age of pulp fiction. He served as an officer in the United States Navy during World War II and afterwards, in 1950, wrote the immensely popular self-help book Dianetics: The Modern Science of Mental Health. In 1953, Hubbard founded of the Church of Scientology to forward his work on Scientology, an outgrowth of Dianetics. He continued researching and expanding the concepts of Dianetics and Scientology and setting policy for the growing Church of Scientology until his January 24, 1986 death at a private California ranch. While many people hold Hubbard in the highest esteem and have attested to the efficacy of his Dianetics and Scientology techniques, he has also been attacked as a charlatan and his Church of Scientology called a dangerous cult that practices little more than brainwashing.
How is that? My only question is should he be called a "con-man" or would charlatan or ??? be better. I think charlatan. -- Justanother 16:04, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
Anynobody 23:09, 6 April 2007 (UTC)Lafayette Ronald Hubbard ( 13 March 1911 – 24 January 1986), better known as L. Ron Hubbard, was an American author during the pre-World War II Golden Age of pulp fiction. He served as an officer in the United States Navy during World War II and afterwards, in 1950, wrote the self-help book Dianetics: The Modern Science of Mental Health. Three years later, Hubbard founded the Church of Scientology, an outgrowth of Dianetics. He continued researching and expanding the concepts of Dianetics and Scientology until his January 24, 1986 death at a private California ranch. He is held high regard by Scientologists who say the efficacy of his Dianetics and Scientology techniques have helped them live better lives. Skeptics and even some nations have shown him to be a charlatan and liar by studying his claims and writing.
The same people have called the Church of Scientology a cult that practices little more than brainwashing and profiteering.
Here ya go. There are governments, scholars, doctors, people on both sides so no need to expand, people is good enough, -- Justanother 02:41, 7 April 2007 (UTC)Lafayette Ronald Hubbard ( 13 March 1911 – 24 January 1986), better known as L. Ron Hubbard, was a well-known American author of the pre-World War II Golden Age of pulp fiction. He served as an officer in the United States Navy during World War II and afterwards, in 1950, wrote the popular self-help book Dianetics: The Modern Science of Mental Health. In 1953, Hubbard founded the Church of Scientology to promote an outgrowth of Dianetics that he dubbed Scientology and which he defined as an "applied religious philosophy". He continued researching and expanding the concepts of Dianetics and Scientology and setting policy for the growing Church of Scientology until his January 24, 1986 death at a private California ranch. While many people hold Hubbard in the highest esteem and have attested to the efficacy of his Dianetics and Scientology techniques, he has also been branded as a charlatan and a liar by critics.
This bit has little place in the article, certainly not where it currently sits.
Please take it out, it is irrelevant to this article. -- Justanother 23:34, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
In 1984 Justice Latey, ruling [8] in the High court of London, stated in his judgment that Scientology is "dangerous, immoral, sinister and corrupt" and "has its real objective money and power for Mr. Hubbard". [1] Justice Latey also addressed Hubbard's representation of himself:
... he has made these, among other false claims:
That he was a much decorated war hero. He was not.
That he commanded a corvette squadron. He did not.
That he was awarded the Purple Heart, a gallantry decoration for those wounded in action. He was not wounded and was not decorated.
That he was crippled and blinded in the war and cured himself with Dianetic technique. He was not crippled and was not blinded.
That he was sent by U.S. Naval Intelligence to break up a black magic ring in California. He was not. He was himself a member of that occult group and practiced ritual sexual magic in it.
That he was a graduate of George Washington University and an atomic physicist. The facts are that he completed only one year of college and failed the one course on nuclear physics in which he enrolled.
There is no dispute about any of this. The evidence is unchallenged. [1]<!-p. 339 -->
This material is speaking directly about the subject of this article, and is highly pertinent to the article itself and should therefore remain in the article. Smee 16:37, 5 April 2007 (UTC).
I see
Misou,
COFS, and
Justanother's point about the statement being
Obiter dicta. Since it was a child custody case, Hubbard and Scientology weren't really the subject, so the stuff from Judge Latey should be excluded. I changed my mind, see
below.
Anynobody
00:18, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
However what he said was true, and has been discussed in court cases about the CoS. Here is an example from the 1984 Armstrong trial:
[...]In addition to violating and abusing its own members civil rights, the organization over the years with its 'Fair Game' doctrine has harassed and abused those persons not in [Scientology] whom it perceives as enemies. The organization clearly is schizophrenic and paranoid, and this bizarre combination seems to be a reflection of its founder [L. Ron Hubbard]. The evidence portrays a man who has been virtually a pathological liar when it comes to his history, background and achievements. The writings and documents in evidence additionally reflect his egoism, greed, avarice, lust for power, and vindictiveness and aggressiveness against persons perceived by him to be disloyal or hostile." -- Judge Paul G. Breckenridge, Jr., 6/20/84 (Scientology v. Armstrong, affirmed on appeal 232 Cal.App.3rd 1060, 283 Cal.Rptr. 917.)
As to Judge Latey's points about Hubbard's claims of military achievement, they can be disproven through the Navy:
That he was a much decorated war hero. He was not.
That he commanded a corvette squadron. He did not. That he was awarded the Purple Heart, a gallantry decoration for those wounded in action. He was not wounded and was not decorated. That he was crippled and blinded in the war and cured himself with Dianetic technique. He was not crippled and was not blinded.
That he was sent by U.S. Naval Intelligence to break up a black magic ring in California. He was not. He was himself a member of that occult group and practiced ritual sexual magic in it.
and this from academic records:
That he was a graduate of George Washington University and an atomic physicist. The facts are that he completed only one year of college and failed the one course on nuclear physics in which he enrolled.
As I've said, there are lots of other sources out there. When one ends up in court as much as he did there are probably other options for judicial sources. Anynobody 05:09, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
That's my point COFS, I understand that Obiter dicta is a judges opinion not related to the ruling. There are cases where the court has made a ruling, like Judge Paul G. Breckenridge above. (It isn't Obiter dicta if it's in the ruling). Anynobody 05:40, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
Not when it's the subject at hand, Latey had to decide on a child custody issue between relatives. Breckenridge was making a decision on whether the CoS had a case against Armstrong. In the former Scientology or Hubbard aren't the primary issue. In the later case they are. The judge didn't believe them, and explained why. That is a judgement or ruling, and when he/she gives their opinion regarding something like that it is not Obiter Dicta COFS. Anynobody 05:51, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
In the interest of clarity:
There are plenty of cases in which the CoS or Hubbard was involved where a judge's opinion would not be Obiter Dicta since Hubbard/CoS are a party to the case. Anynobody 01:50, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
The case was brought by the CoS and Mrs. Hubbard against Gerald Armstrong which the Church lost. The statement I quoted was part of Breckenridge's reasons for ruling the way he did. His opinions about Hubbard and the CoS apply directly to his decision, which is why it's Ratio decidendi.
In this matter heretofore taken under submission, the Court announces its intended decision as follows: As to the tort causes of action, plaintiff, and plaintiff in intervention are to take nothing, and the defendant is entitled to Judgment and costs. As to the equitable actions, the court finds that neither plaintiff has clean hands, and that at least as of this time, are not entitled to the immediate return of any document or objects previously retained by the court clerk.
(The Latin means "the reason (or rationale) for the decision.") Anynobody 05:15, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
Respectfully Misou, that is not what the law says. Ratio decidendi: "It is a legal phrase which refers to the legal, moral, political, and social principles used by a court to compose the rationale of a particular judgment. Unlike obiter dicta, the principles of judgment for ratio decidendi stand as potentially binding precedent, through the principle of stare decisis." The judge found in favor of the defendant for among other reasons:
[...]In addition to violating and abusing its own members civil rights, the organization over the years with its 'Fair Game' doctrine has harassed and abused those persons not in [Scientology] whom it perceives as enemies. The organization clearly is schizophrenic and paranoid, and this bizarre combination seems to be a reflection of its founder [L. Ron Hubbard]. The evidence portrays a man who has been virtually a pathological liar when it comes to his history, background and achievements. The writings and documents in evidence additionally reflect his egoism, greed, avarice, lust for power, and vindictiveness and aggressiveness against persons perceived by him to be disloyal or hostile."
Breckenridge ruled in favor of the defendant, Armstrong, because of the opinion he formed about the CoS and Hubbard during the case.
Latey's remarks were obiter dicta because the CoS was neither a plaintiff, defendant, or participant in the hearing he was ruling on. Breckenridge's comments were ratio decidendi because the CoS was the plaintiff in the case he was ruling on as such his opinion of them and Hubbard actually does pertain to the case at hand. Anynobody 06:37, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
Do you happen to know which one does that? I'd be happy to take a look at it, but I must point out that in this discussion we are only talking about two terms. Obiter dicta, non-related commentary from a judge before ruling. Ratio decidendi, reasons a judge makes his/her ruling. Anynobody 23:14, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
Here is the basic syllogism being offered by those who believe that Judge Latey's assessment of Hubbard must go out as obiter dicta:
Now, the first big problem with the above syllogism is with the first premise. A number of editors have asserted that the quoted lines from Judge Latey are obiter dicta -- but many editors think they know a lot more about the law than they actually do. I have no reason to believe that COFS (who put forth this issue of obiter dicta in the first place) is a legal expert, and even if he claimed to be, the recent problems with Essjay should caution us against accepting any such claims casually.
However, even if that premise was not so doubtful, the syllogism is still no good, because it depends on the enthymeme "No statements which are not legally binding meet Wikipedia's requirements for reliable sources" and this, to understate just a bit, would certainly surprise the hell out of Jimbo Wales. So far as I know there has never been a single story in the New York Times which has ever been legally binding by virtue of being printed. Are we to take from this that New York Times stories aren't reliable sources? Like I said, it would really surprise Jimbo Wales to learn that this rule has somehow been passed by stealth when he wasn't looking. -- Antaeus Feldspar 23:32, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
An obiter dictum (plural obiter dicta, often referred to simply as dicta), Latin for a statement said "by the way", is a remark or observation made by a judge that, although included in the body of the court's opinion, does not form a necessary part of the court's decision. In a court opinion, obiter dicta include, but are not limited to, words "introduced by way of illustration, or analogy or argument." [9]
Instead of exhausting my reverts, I would appreciate if User:COFS could enlighten us how the segment he deleted [7] and "...so we see the African tribesman, with his complete contempt for the truth, and his emphasis on brutality and savagery..."<ref>Hubbard, L. Ron, ''Scientology: Fundamentals of Thought''. Copenhagen: New Era Publications, 1997. {{ISBN|1900944979}}, p. 77</ref> is out of context. -- Tilman 18:49, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
Hubbard, L. Ron, Scientology: Fundamentals of Thought. Copenhagen: New Era Publications, 1997.
ISBN
1900944979
. It is simply a fact that despite the prohibitions against altering Hubbard's words, they have been altered, with different editions changing Hubbard's phrasings and sometimes leaving out inconvenient sections. For instance, let me show you the "tribesman" paragraph, complete, as it appears in my copy of Fundamentals:
- Self-created data is, then, not a bad thing, neither is education, but one without the other to hold it in some balance will bring about a no-game condition or a no-civilization. Just as individuals can be seen, by observing nations, so we see the African tribesman, with his complete contempt for truth and his emphasis on brutality and savagery for others but not himself, is a no-civilization. And we see at the other extreme China, slavishly dedicated to ancient scholars, incapable of generating within herself sufficient rulers to continue, without bloodshed, a nation.
Hubbard, L. Ron, Scientology: The Fundamentals of Thought. Los Angeles: Bridge Publications, 1997.
ISBN
0-88404-503-X
and the paragraph in question is in the middle of page 113. And here in the same copy are two paragraphs comparing the "white" to "yellow and brown people", which occupy roughly the bottom half of page 35 and the upper third of page 36:
- Unlike yellow and brown people, the white does not usually believe he can get attention from matter or objects. The yellow and brown believe for the most part (and it is all a matter of consideration) that rocks, trees, walls, etc., can give them attention. The white man seldom believes this and so is likely to become anxious about people.
- Thus the white saves people, prevents famine, flood, disease and revolution for people as the only purveyors6 of attention are scarce. The white goes further. He often believes that he can get attention only from whites and that yellow and brown people's attention is worthless. Thus the yellow and brown races are not very progressive, but, by and large, saner. And the white race is progressive but more frantic. The yellow and brown races do not understand white concern for "bad conditions" since what are a few million dead men? There are plenty of identities and there is plenty of attention, they think. The white can't understand them. Nor can they understand the white.
- [For completeness's sake, the footnote on page 35 referenced: "6. purveyors: providers or suppliers."]
New comment: I feel that Justanother is misrepresenting my statement by quoting only part of a sentence, here is the rest: "...not the least of which was at best a bad memory of his life at worst his bald faced lies about it." I'm saying he was human, and tended to paint an inaccurate picture of his life. Though I think he was a liar, if evidence were shown that he had some kind of psychiatric condition that caused it I'd change my opinion. Anynobody 23:36, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
I've actually come to that conclusion based on his own writings, several primary sources, and the ever changing biography the CoS puts out. Here are a few examples of the info which convinced me that Hubbard was a liar, Justanother: Sourced text from article:
Off Wikipedia info:
With all due respect, you are only citing Scientology sources for his "exploits" and those have changed as previous ones proved inaccurate or outright lies. Frankly the difference between us is that if one can find proof from a neutral source that he WAS everything he said he was I might change my opinion. You will probably never change your opinion of him no matter what sources can be found, since you seem to believe people who don't believe everything he said are editing here under an agenda. I guess you don't realize it, but you are actually the one who is editing from a one sided view and editing with an agenda. Point our recent edit counts: Justanother Anynobody. I've noticed that it takes a much longer time and more edits to get anything done on a Scientology related page not inline with the views of the CoS no matter how well sourced. Anynobody 03:07, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
Let's assume you are right, there are a few things I'd need some help understanding based on direct knowledge:
There are other questions of course, but these will suffice for a start. Anynobody 03:59, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
Just to inject a bit of context here. Hubbard was talking about animism; the concept that there is a spiritual nature to what we in the west (yes, us "whites") call "inanimate objects". African ("brown"), American Indian ("red", though LRH does not mention them), and Asian ("yellow") races often hold beliefs that are animistic; e.g. Shinto or shamanism ("It could be said that shamans are the experts employed by animists or animist communities.") It was Ron's belief that the brown and yellow therefore take a different view of human life than the whites. He does not say that because of their race, he says it because of their beliefs. Not race. Beliefs. If you read the quote, you see that he considers the brown and yellow races "saner" than the white. So if he was a racist then I guess he was anti-white?? Now for my opinion. Do you know how much of our current GNP goes to "health care"; i.e. prolonging life. I can see a future where all activity is directed at health care to support overpriced drugs and treatments to prolong life with all wealth concentrated in drug companies, "health care" providers, and insurance companies (wait, I think we are almost there already.) Why does our society have to spend so much on prolonging life? Two reasons, IMO. 1) The current trend toward materialism and atheism attach inordinate importance to eking out another day of life and 2) "whites" believe that they exist in a bubble disconnected from the inanimate universe, animals and plants, and even other races of man. The latter point is what LRH was addressing. So rather than talk about what he was addressing, we want to ignore that and nanny nanny boo boo, he did not use PC terminology in a pre-PC age. And why do we do that? Because, as another said - "The incorrect and counterproductive consideration that seems to pervade the community is this: Scientology is not a subject - it is instead controversy about a pseudo subject." -- Justanother 18:07, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
(Among occultists today, it is widely accepted that Hubbard derived a large part of 'Dianetics' from Golden Dawn occult ideas such as the Holy Guardian Angel.[citation needed])
Here is the only citation needed tag I found in the article. Can this be cited? Does anyone know where to find a citation for this??
Anynobody
10:51, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
Since nobody was able to cite this, I've removed it: (Among occultists today, it is widely accepted that Hubbard derived a large part of 'Dianetics' from Golden Dawn occult ideas such as the Holy Guardian Angel. citation needed) Anynobody 23:52, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
I hadn't heard much about the specifics of Jack Parsons occult side; I did know of him from his JPL accomplishments. I read a bit about him after you made your post, and I think you are most likely right about Ordo Templi Orientis "inspiring" Hubbard. If we could find a citation I wouldn't mind adding it back in, corrected of course.
I didn't realize he was telling people that "Navy Intelligence" sent him to break up the group, I must say I found that claim hilarious. What I found so funny was not his claim to Naval Intelligence , but that his claim that the ONI gives a crap about cults: "Join the Navy, see the world, learn new things, and battle cults!" At that time they would have been busy trying to learn as much as possible about the Soviet fleet. Anynobody 02:55, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
There have been a number of books about Parsons published recently; I haven't had time to get my hands on any of them, unfortunately. One of them might have some notes on Hubbard and Parsons' relationship, and possibly in less overwrought terms than some of the literature on Hubbard tends to use. -- FOo 04:05, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
Cat, what's your source for Hubbard knowing Parsons before the war? The letter that Parsons wrote to Crowley saying that Sara "has transferred her sexual affection to Ron" also says that Parsons only met Hubbard "about three months ago", though he described Hubbard as "a writer and explorer of whom I had known for some time". While there seem to be some weird discrepancies about just when that letter was written, Parsons didn't start up with Sara until after his wife Helen left him in 1944, so it doesn't seem possible that three months previous to that letter was before the war. -- Antaeus Feldspar 07:18, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
Last night 00:07, Misou added this, starting with "(→Legal difficulties and life on the high seas - found first one (hooray to online databases))":
In 1978, as part of a case against three French Scientologists Hubbard was convicted for "making fraudulent promises" and sentenced to four years in jail and a 35,000₣ fine by a French court. Hubbard - who had not been defended in the trial at all and had not been in the country during the whole time - refused to serve his jail time or pay his fine. The case was appealed later - in 1980 - with all fraud charges being dropped.<ref>Sunday Star (Toronto), 2 March 1980: "Scientology gets nod from court. Paris (Reuter) - The Paris Appeal Court has recognized the U.S.-based Church of Scientology as a religion and cleared a former leader of its French branch of fraud.". Also in International Herald Tribune, 3 March 1980</ref>
The problem is that the only leader of the French branch whose conviction was discharged 1980-02-29 was Georges Andreu, not Hubbard. The other three convictions, including Hubbard's, were confirmed. (Andreu's conviction was discharged mainly due to his being 22 when named president of Scientology in France and merely a subordinate.) The claim that the "Paris Appeal Court has recognized the U.S.-based Church of Scientology as a religion" also seems very doubtful, but I haven't dug into that yet.
The mention of an online database (certainly not the Toronto Star's, which only goes back to 1985) and at least one error of fact make me question this reference. AndroidCat 15:27, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
Another ref problem with Hubbard's mother's name Ledora/Dora: "Biography issued 7 April 1977 by Liz Gablehouse". How can anyone verify that rather sparse entry? Since she was a Sea Org member, I assume that this was issued by CoS. Was it actually published in any real sense? As well, although this is a minor detail, CoS's accounts of Hubbard's life haven't been terrible accurate. Bare Faced Messiah uses Ledora. AndroidCat 01:50, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
Justanother, would you please explain why the links you propose removing violate the guideline Wikipedia:External links? Anynobody 03:44, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
I returned the CoS links to the page. They may be full of it, but that's still their position. Not having them makes the section very POV. Anynobody 00:59, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
Anynobody, you claim the following: The remainder of Hubbard's wartime service was spent ashore in the continental United States. He was mustered out of the active service list in late 1945 and continued to draw disability pay for arthritis, bursitis, and conjunctivitis for years afterwards, long after he claimed to have discovered the secret of how to cure these ailments.
The "source" for all of that is "reader's digest". Now, some years ago I challenged the statements about Hubbard's disabilities and what I could get were some documents from U.S. Naval Hospital, for example of 1 Dec 45, L.D. Morgan Cmdr. USNR writing a medical report on Hubbard, incl. "ulcer", "eyesight failing" and later "getting worse", and "lame in right hip", "infection in bone" (not joint, meaning bursitis). I can't find that in your report but mine is lacking anything about "arthritis, bursitis" while the eyesight thing might be the "conjunctivitis" you have there. Any idea why that is? Misou 21:45, 19 April 2007 (UTC) PS: Good news! My flatbed scanner is supposed to arrive tomorrow. Cross fingers that I am back home by then. Misou 21:45, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
I want to put the article in time sequence and started with the family life parts. This one is located in the "controversy" section and might be taken out from there. What I am missing is the year LRH married Northrup and some details around that. I am planning to fix that somewhen later today or tomorrow. Any protests or considerations? COFS 23:59, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
In later research the Sunday Times in UK (1969) found out that Hubbard's contact to O.T.O. had been an intelligence operation for the U.S. Government to prevent leaks of confidential information to O.T.O. (midst of the Cold War Parsons was working as a solid fuel rocket scientist in California)<ref>Sunday times "Scientology: New Light on Crowley", 28 December 1969, (Hubbard) "...went to life at the house and investigated the black magic rites and the general situation ... . Parsons wrote to Crowley in England about Hubbard. Crowley "The Beast 666" evidently detected an enemy and warned Parsons. This is all proven by the correspondence unearthed by the Sunday Times. Hubbard's mission was successful ... . The black magic group was dispersed ... ."]</ref>
COFS, I'm sure you know very well that was a statement printed as is from the Church of Scientology, not part of any research by The Sunday Times, and that they did not retract their previous story of 5 October 1969, SCIENTOLOGY: Revealed for the first time. . . The odd beginning of Ron Hubbard's career. AndroidCat 00:30, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
Out of sequence reply to above
To answer your last question first, Hubbard did. The agent's notes from the interview are included along with Hubbard's correspondence, and the FBI's notes on him: FBI and L. Ron Hubbard. If you read all the letters, the general FBI impression of him is pretty clear (Hoover believed Hubbard's first letter about Nazi spies in 1940 or 41, and the FBI found nothing to corroborate his claims. Later the FBI stopped answering him at all.) Hubbard became very concerned about communist infiltration of his organization, as also documented in the letters.
I wasn't saying the FBI stuff ought to be included necessarily, I was pointing out a flaw in your logic here:
I get you. As the story goes Parsons was a solid fuel rocket engineer working on military projects and whoever (ONI? FBI?) feared that Crowley could send them a rocket, so to say. I would be concerned too, especially right after WWII and in the beginning of the Cold War the insecurity must have been high. This is not really an espionage issue but more public safety (they didn't know about AUM, but with a little imagination...). LRH had a FBI ID at some point in the 1940/50s. I forget the date on it but maybe I can find it (he will tell some anecdotes about that in several lectures later). COFS 02:05, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
This whole statement is WP:OR but I didn't think you wanted it included in the article. Anynobody 22:42, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
Link to ref. This credential looks like something a security guard would be issued, and the link describes the special officers as having no authority beyond citizens arrest. (I have seen armed security guards, bear in mind armed doesn't necessarily mean with a gun.)
Was he a volunteer or was he paid? Anynobody 05:16, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
Although his employer of record was the Metropolitan Detective Agency, his ultimate license came from LAPD