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In order to allow greater readability, a separate page has been created for discussion by
anyone other than Horlo, Irpen or Reginmund. No decisions will be made on that page. Any decisions will be made only on this page.
199.125.109.35 21:33, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
The result of the proposal was It was requested that this article be renamed but there was no consensus for it to be moved. El_C 23:06, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
Should the page be moved to a new page called Kyiv?
Absolutely, the change from Kiev to Kyiv should occur on Wikipedia, as it has in many other places already. Martauwo 01:45, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
Some Wiki editors insist that a more common English name - based on history, Google searches, personal intrangisence ect., for the geographic entity located at 50°27′00″N 30°31′24″E is Kiev; Therefore they argue that is the best title for the article about the city. However reading further into the article we see that just as prevalent is the new spelling used.
Like it or not, the Ukrainian government's decree of Ukrainian as the official language and policy of using the Kyiv spelling has significantly changed how the the city's name is commonly spelled in English.
Institutions (ie. city council, universities, metro) with the city's name in their proper title will use Ukrainian spelling Київ in their proper name. A faithful translation into English text (such as a Wikipedia reference) should translate using the Kyiv spelling ie Kyiv Metro, Kyiv City council. Moreover, some of these institutions have produced their own English language text where they have explicitely spelt their name using Kyiv.ie Kyiv-Mohyla Institute, Kyiv Polytechnical Insitute, Kyiv University etc. further confirming how the city name should be spelt in their proper name.
It does make more sense to change the article's to Kyiv name to reflect the usage in proper names cited in the body of the article. Eduvalko 03:45, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
* No vote:
Horlo (
talk ·
contribs ·
count)
Hello, Reginmund, please don't put words in my mouth. I support this move.
Martauwo ( talk · contribs · count) 21:38, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
75.66.91.10 ( talk · contribs · count) 23:35, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
Comment - And what is your evidence that Kyiv is more accurate? And where is my personal attack? Reginmund 00:22, 14 September 2007 (UTC) Comment - Reginmund, everybody has an opinion. If you want to discuss it, please do it at the talk page. Here, everybody is free to state whatever they want, for any reason they want. Horlo 00:19, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
Its usage reminds me of the word "nigger". In time that words usage was changed to "negro" then "Black" and later "Afro-american". We are not arguing over the content, but how people would prefer to be called. A perception. Some people even today will continue to argue that the correct English word or usage is "nigger" and will continue to use it, despite how uncomfortable it may make people or maybe for the very fact that it does make people uncomfortable. Ukraine had a colonial past. - Most of it was part of the Russian Empire and this left a large legacy, however there are individuals who find it difficult to acknowledge Ukrainian statehood or Ukrainian language or culture. Luckily there are fewer today than in 1876 when the language and most of its culture was officially banned by the Russian authorities. I guess there are still people in the world that think that the world is flat and that people with a "well developed tan" should be refered to by their "proper English title", however, I do not agree. I regret that you are offended. It was not my intention. Live long and prosper. -- Bandurist 20:33, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
Hello Faustian,I am assuming that you may be reffering to me as one of the "meat puppets". I do not have the capabilities (computer savyness)or knowledge to write content articles. However, I do know what the spelling of the capital of Ukraine is, hence my interest and contributions to this topic. thank you, Bosska 17:46, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
Hello Orange Mike, Using the article "the" before Ukraine has been dropped by all since Ukraine's Independece in 1991....so, if you didn't know that, then why would your strong opposition be viewed as credible. By the way, several of the previous contributers, based on their bio pages, who oppsed the spelling change, have a personal connection to Russia i.e. birth country & native language. What does that tell you? The move to "Kyiv" is a move forward! Bosska 17:41, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
If you disregard a persons opinion in a discussion based on their race, that is a personal attack. I suggest you revoke this ideology. Reginmund 20:46, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
RFC Response. I am here as a result of the RFC request. I have done a Nexis search and find that Kiev seems to be the predominant spelling at the moment bu Kyiv is also being used. Given that language and spellings can and do change I think we need to be prepared to change as well. Given that this is the English wiki I would keep Kiev for now and revisit this in 6 months or so. A redirect can certainly be created but given the enormity of the change I would like to see a very strong consensus before any change is made. At present, I'm not sure that consensus exists. Once the change is made I would create a redirect for the old name too. The New York Times, The Washington Post, the Associated Press, the Daily Telegraph of Australia and of London, Chinadaily.com, Daily Record of Scotland, The Guardian of London and on and on all use Kiev at the moment. A similat search on Kyiv shows some rare usage even in some of the papers listed above, but Kiev is the most common. -- JodyB yak, yak, yak 19:18, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
Hello, I would remind you of the discussion here: [8] where others also did not see the results that you did on a google test.
If you have nothing to show, please allow other people to speak, and have their own opinions. Thanks, Horlo 23:11, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
I for one do not appreciate all the sock puppetry, meat puppetry, dissembling, and disruption involved in Horlo's endless crusade. - Jehochman Talk 03:46, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
Hello,
Advanced Google Search results:
Kyiv - 1,950,000
Kiev - 2,220,000
Please note that WP guidelines clearly state to use the advanced search, and a raw search should be avoided.
It is a fact that new people are always joining Wikipedia. If you do not appreciate that, there's nothing I can do.
Who are the sockpuppets here? Would you be so kind as to support that accusation?
Thanks, Horlo 19:32, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
Yet, even your results still show Kiev to be higher for once. I've already made clear before that every random Toronto IP (at least five) that had little to no other contriibutions to any other articles and every newly registered user that made little to no other contributions to any other articles, all of which came right after the polls were closed because when Horlo realised that consensus was greater for keeping the page, he needed to make some sockpuppets to push his agenda. Reginmund 22:46, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
Hello,
I have never said that the google test is always in favour of Kyiv. I have said that the difference is not great enough to make a decision based on that. You are the one who claims it is always 25% higher for Kiev.
I repeat my question - who are the sockpuppets here?
Thanks, 67.71.177.230 22:58, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
You are not a judge to say that a %25 difference is disregardable and I am saying this taking the test independently. I also never said that you stated that Kyiv was always higher. I have already made clear the sockpuppets. Until you actually make enough to get the page moved, that is when I'll identify them but thanks to bureaucratic elections such as the one that kept Kiev where it belongs, you are not an administrator, so I don't have to go on a wild goose-chase for you. Reginmund 23:06, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
Hello,
The book is outdated because it does not reflect what is the common name. It reflects what was the common name almost one hundred years ago.
Thanks, 67.71.177.230 22:58, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
Jehochman, a very extensive list of evidence has been presented on this talk page, with contributions from many editors. Please read through all evidence presented before making an informed decision. Cyclically restating evidence that has since been successfully rebutted (and many times too), without any challenge of the rebuttal, does not help.
Nor do accusations of sock puppetry; unless there are black Concorde flights, how is Horlo flying to Australia, making comments with my IP address, and then flying back to Canada to make a comment with Toronto IP addresses? Why is Horlo constantly being singled out for attack; because out of the "support" group he appears to have the most time for this, and since he has provided so much evidence in support of a move to Kyiv, which some pro-Kiev editors are appearing to ignore? If you are against the move, read the last summary posted by Horlo and provide valid evidence against each point raised (make sure it isn't an old argument as well) - don't just cry sock puppet in the stead of evidence or a credible argument.
If you are for the move, please read the summary in support too, and also read through the arguments raised by those opposed to the move, so that you also make an informed comment. Of course I appreciate your support, but it is important that this be informed support based on evidence. Whatever your position, it would be of benifit to you if you can make and defend comments with knowledge of the evidence accumulated on the talk page. Those opposing, please consider making a concise summary of the evidence in favour of your position to date, so we know where we disagree.
I strongly support the move in light of all of the evidence presented thus far. Should I make this comment elsewhere? I have never been involved in such a disagreement before.
Thanks, 60.242.0.245 06:52, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
You seem to be making up most of these points as you go along. Especially because nobody ever claimed that you were Horlo's sockpuppet, that no points against the move have been disproven, that Horlo continues to go in circles with his arguments despite being disproven on numerous occasions, that the accusations of sockpuppetry are an excuse to digress from the point. It appears that you have neither regarded any of the arguments opposing the move with the slightest bit of seriousness, otherwise you would actually get your facts right. I'm quite surprised that these editors (and their sockpuppets) are still trying to get the page moved after all of the resistance. The fact that they have not accepted consensus goes to show that their intentions are not to improve this encyclopaedia, but to push their nationalist agendas. Reginmund 07:16, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
Advanced Google Search: Kyiv vs Kiev= Reginmund, do you accuse me likewise of doctoring my screenshots? Horlo's appear unedited to me. You never responded with any of your own, or disputed Horlo's shots during the considerable period of time in which we stalled debate on this issue just to give those against the move time to come up with countering evidence of your own.
I have always assumed good faith, and believed that you were getting the Advanced Google Search results you were claiming. Horlo's results are different to my results. Your results are very different to my results. I thus assumed that the test results must fluctuate, instead of questioning the credibility of your evidence.
What is important is that not only were the _percentage_ differences between Horlo's results and my results different, but that the _absolute_ differences were significantly so. The total number of results for the tests Horlo undertook were greater, thus my tests weren't as accurate: websites might have been inaccessible at the times of day I tested; my population size was incorrectly small. Would you like to inform us of the absolute number of hits you recieve for both Kyiv and Kiev, rather than the percentage difference?
Also, the last posted summary in support of the move from Kiev to Kyiv did not mention the Advanced Google Search alone as proof that Kyiv is the more common usage. In fact, it may be too mild as it says the result is hung, were it might really be additional proof that Kyiv is more common. And what of the other arguments presented for the move? 60.242.0.245 07:14, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
Did you actually read my post? I said that other users should make the search independently without regarding Horlo's shots as legitimate simply because his crusading the talk page may show evidence of an ulterior motive and tampering with evidence of which spelling is more popular. So, it would be in turn ironic if I posted my own shots, yet I encourage other users to do the search on their own. I would really reccommend you read my filibuster before actually interpereting them before you make claims irrelevant to the point. Reginmund 07:20, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
I don't remember all of Horlo's argument, all of my arguments, all of Eduvalko's arguments or other people's arguments being disproven. Perhaps all of your arguments haven't really been disproven either. This is again getting messy; I don't know much about editing, so could Reginmund or somebody else perhaps start a new section please, where we can yet again restate every item of evidence for either side? I was under the impression that we had covered all that you were arguing, Reginmund, and I didn't think anything had been missed or left unchallenged. This would not be fair if I was ignoring your evidence at the same time as urging others not to do the same, and I apologise if I have done so. Perhaps opposing and supporting evidence, and the discussion surrounding each point of evidence, is lost in the quagmire above. Should we just restate the whole lot for each side again? 60.242.0.245 07:26, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
Sorry, Reginmund, it appears that I'm trying to post at the same time as you; I'm out of sync with your posts.
After Horlo posted his shots, I suggested (and he agreed) that we take the Google Test as hung rather than trumpeting a win for Kyiv. As this was a while ago, and you had made several posts since, I just assumed you weren't debating this, so was suprised when you mentioned the 25% again.
If what you suggest is that we make up a table of what every editor says they see - absolute number of hits for Kyiv and for Kiev, and UTC time at which the searches were run - then it is something I suggested might be necessary before, and I would be happy to do so. Either way we will conclude something.
Sorry, that was my post 60.242.0.245 07:33, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
If you skim the archives, you may see that laying down the arguments has already been tried. The fact of the matter is, both sides cannot be disproven because both side's arguments are perfectly legitimate. That made the final authority the consensus among the voters. After the vote was closed, Horlo continued to make the same arguments which led to a dilemna of going round in circles. Since both arguments are legitimate, what matters now is consensus and right now, there isn't enough to move the page to Kyiv. Reginmund 07:46, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
Thankyou, Reginmund. I came across this article well after the poll, wondered at the spelling, and found this lengthy talkpage. I have already read through the entirety, though reading the whole lot until my first post as one big discussion from the past (and ignoring timestamps) might have made me miss the significance of it.
JodyB suggested that we wait for six months. It appears that there will soon be parliamentary elections in Ukraine. As this could potentially lead to increased English language reporting, commentary, discussion and the likes which involve the name of Ukraine's capital (I have no proof that it will), perhaps we should wait until after the election period and see how commonly each spelling is used afterwards? We could see a significantly increased use of Kyiv, or a significant resurgance of Kiev; either could help clarify matters here.
Also, do you think that http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiev#City_name_evolution should be updated in light of this lengthy debate?
Thanks, 60.242.0.245 08:31, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
If there is anything else in that section that needs updating besides the parliamentary actions, that may be necessary but we can't speculate in the article that the use of Kyiv may increase rapidly until it actually does and if it actually does. Reginmund 18:26, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
Clearly, consensus to move the article to Kyiv does not appear likely to be crystallizing in the foreseeable future (which is, for our purposes, many months). Several dictionaries I consulted all depict Kiev as the primary name and Kyiv as the Ukrainian one. I note that Britannica and Encarta are split on the issue (with the former favouring Kiev and the latter Kyiv). A google scholar result give Kiev ten times more results than Kyiv. It goes on, but it does appear that Kiev is the common English name, and it is probably not productive going over the matter seemingly indefinitely, and increasingly circularly. Let's wait and see in, say, six months to a year (perhaps at that time kmv.gov.ua/en/index.asp will be back online), if there's been any changes that increase the prevalence of Kyiv — Wikipedia cannot become part of the process, however. Thx. El_C 23:24, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
(The subject line is a quote from El C's in response to Horlo's question why not give the RfC the time as announced.)
I guess I'm was wrong in hoping for more thoughtful guidance out of this impasse. What I saw 199.125.109.19 trying to do was to let us see the whole Wiki editor landscape on the naming issue. This is what is this naming issue needs, a full venting of opinions, a poll of all the editors who have made contributions in this subject area, or as many that can be asked to provide an contribution. Comments and endless counterrebuttals should only be listed further down the page or on user talk pages. It's easier to compromise and negotiate if one can see/read opinions from a large number of editors. Let them/us knock themselves/ourselves out.
Arbitrarily shutting down the RfC because the discussion has become rowdy (see "Gordian knot" @ User talk:El C) only frustrates particants and really wont make the issue go away. El C would have helped if he (forgive me if he is not really a he) limited his observations to what is the landscape amongst editors and worked on negotiating through the impasse. Instead describing his own Google searches and opinion has the affect of reducing his mediation to one more "oppose" contribution. I expect that Wiki editors behaving like other normal adults will know when they are summarily and needlessly shut down/out and it is expected and normal that they will not accept this. So much for closure. 74.121.238.102 03:05, 16 September 2007 (UTC)As suspected. I took too long formulating my response and was logged out but the above is really my comment. Eduvalko 03:08, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
Perhaps I wasn't clear, and if so I again apologise. I suggested that this debate be kept open, not removed or ignored, until after the parliamentary elections are held so that we can check the usage of Kyiv vs Kiev after this period.
The only part of the Wikipedia article on the capital of Ukraine that I suggested changing was the section on the evolution of the name. At the very least, this debate has demonstrated that _this section_ of the article is in need of an update in light of evidence presented.
Why close things now? And even if clear consensus won't be reached by the end of the week, why should this discussion be abandoned? Despite its torturous (and at times personal) nature, I am of the opinion that it is (albeit slowly) going somewhere. The title of this article is important. And there is a section on the article on the evolution on the name because it is significant.
Not long from now, there might be an intensification in the printed/typed/written use of the name of Ukraine's capital in English, due to the upcoming elections. Shall we check which spelling is used by whom, how frequently and how commonly after the election period?
60.242.0.245 03:32, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
As a newcomer to this discussion I would like to make two quick points: (i) it seems to me that there is no clear consensus to end this conversation. (ii) As a historian of modern Europe I frequently have to deal with this type of question and it seems to me that over time the name of a city becomes that which the country decides, ie Mumbai, St Petersburg, etc. Why should this case be any different?
Ab2004 18:11, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
Because the English language doesn't have an academy. All of the aforementioned toponyms have been adopted to be the more common name in English. No foreign government should have to tell us Anglophones how to use our language. Reginmund 22:01, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
This is a talk page. We can discuss the naming of Kiev until the cows come home. However, we don't want activity like recruiting newcomers with a specific POV, or registering multiple accounts, or using IP accounts, to be used as tactics for creating "consensus". That sort of nonsense is what I'm concerned about, Horlo, in response to this message you left on my talk page.
As to the substance, if Ukraine's official English spelling of the city is "Kyiv", that's what we should use. Google counts should be represented accurately, but I don't care if 7X as many web pages have "Kiev". Many web pages are historical, not current, so that measure is irrelevant. In general, people, groups, and places with governments should be able to choose whatever name they like, as long as use that name consistently, and in good faith, Wikipedia should follow their precident. If the official governments of Ukraine and Kyiv call the city "Kyiv", so should we. It's easy enough to redirect Kiev in case people get confused. - Jehochman Talk 20:23, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
Maybe because Horlo was a filthy liar unless you didn't read the excerps from two of his posts which I compared in which he blatantly accuses me of saying that every person that didn't agree with me was his sockpuppet, and then in a second post, says that he never made such a remark. I think that the same applies to you. You seem to be so entangled in ridiculing me that you actually miss the point of what I was saying. Reginmund 04:45, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
Hello,
Jehochman, thank you for your comment. That has been one of my arguments all along. Unfortunately, you will see that along the way, I became a sock puppet master, meat puppet master, and liar. The only thing I will add to that is that this article is about the name of a capital city. I think it is natural that many people take part in this discussion. There is actually a history of editors being blocked and taken to arbitration for trying to change the names of Ukrainian historical figures from Russian to Ukrainian (I am not talking about things like the Kiev Offensive, but rather people like Ivan Bohun, who have no realistic Common Name in English).
Now, even some people who disagree with me in this discussion have realized that I have not created any new accounts since the end of July, and the "sock puppet master" tag has been removed from my talk page.
It is exactly people like you, who come into this discussion with an open mind and good faith, that I was hoping to invite into this discussion with the Request for Comment.
Thanks, Horlo 02:07, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
Hello,
Actually, I showed MZajac how each of the points that he listed were, in fact, incorrect. Or, to use another outdated term, hooey.
Also, what of all of the other examples that Bandurist mentioned? Those may be more appropriate here: Bombay -> Mumbai, Peking -> Beijing, Burma -> Myanmar?
Thanks, Horlo 04:33, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
Hello, Actually, there are clear guidelines which were established on a page called, interestingly enough, WP:naming conflict. The specific locations are here: [10] and here: [11].
Also, as much as some want to deny it, WP guidelines state that For geographic names in Ukraine, the Ukrainian National system is used. For historic reasons, many names are also presented in Russian, Polish, etc. That is clearly stated here: [12]
Irpen, which points do you think that I did not clarify? Please let me know, or stop using words like "wishful thinking".
Thanks, Horlo 05:25, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
"Hello, Johnathan, how are you today?"
"Well, thank you. By the way, my name is 'Jonathan', not 'Johnathan'."
"That's not the way we do things. Most people spell your name 'Johnathan', so that's what we use."
"But that's wrong. It's my name, and I'm sure how to spell it."
"Yes, but per our guidelines, we use the most common spelling. We see that 66% of the time, people spell your name with that extra 'h' and we wouldn't want to confuse them."
- Jehochman Talk 12:04, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
People in Kiev call their city as either Киев or Київ. And the preferred name in the non-English language is nowhere in the naming conventions. People in Moscow call their city Москва. So what? -- Irpen 17:31, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
I'm not sure whether Irpen deliberately didn't want to answer the question which pointedly asks what English spelling the locals use to name themselves in the Angloworld. All city (road) signage is "Kyiv". Some/most/all universities use "Kyiv" in their English literature if their title carries the city name, FC Dynamo Kyiv and so on. Eduvalko 18:40, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
Hello,
Irpen, why do you think that the media is the only factor in determining what is important?
Thanks, Horlo 02:02, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
Konigsburg to Kaliningrad Danzig to Gdansk (Danzig looks more English to me) Breslau to Wroclaw In fact almost all the towns in the German lands given to Poland after WWII had name changes. You can’t tell me that they are easier to pronounce in their Polish spellings? But by not using the contemporary Polish spellings you are offending the Poles. Regarding Mumbai aparently this is the pronounciation of Bombay in one of the Indian languages.
Here is but a short list:
Alma-Ata to Almaty, Gomel to Homel or Homiel, Grodno to Hrodna , Mogilev to Mahilyow, Kishinev to Chisinau.
In particular I turn Mr Reginmund's attention to Kishinev - Chisinau. (As an aside - My grandmother, a native of Murom (ie ethnically Russian) lived there and in fact was buried there, and being the typical Great Russian chauvinist she was brought up to be saw nothing wrong in never learning the language of the local population.) Kishinev is easy on the eye and easy to pronounce. Chisinau (please look) with all its diacritical marks looks ugly - yet Chisinau is the name used in Wiki.
You and your puppets don't count. self-professed teacher. everyone that disagrees with me is your sockpuppet which is a blatant filthy lie, the influx of newly registered users and anonymous IPs from Toronto that came directly after the polls closed are probably Horlo's sock puppets you blatantly lie to push your crusading POV. With every other tactic Horlo has used to push his POV, I wouldn't be surprised if he took those photographs to Photoshop. the results are decisively different than Horlo's bowdlerised "proof". I have already made clear the sockpuppets. Especially because nobody ever claimed that you were Horlo's sockpuppet,
Uncivil - I truely think that you don’t really understand the term.
We've already been over this anyway. We're would just be repeating arguments. What was used a century ago is still used today. it still has a substantial effect today.
Ahh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Painful
Bandurist 20:32, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
We've already been over this anyway. We're would just be repeating arguments. What was used a century ago is still used today. it still has a substantial effect today.
Hello,
Actually, Russian does not have an "h" sound. That's why they say "Khokkey" when saying hockey.
However, that's not really the discussion here. The topic is the name of the capital of Ukraine.
There seem to be two trains of thought here - the first accepts that the language changes, and that people won't really go falling off chairs and go into conniptions when the name of a city far away starts being spelled differently, especially when that is what the freely elected government of the country asks. (No, nobody tells us Anglos how to use our language. I am telling you how to use our language.)
The second rests on the question - "what is more common". There was a discussion roughly twenty hours ago on the same topic, and the question was posed "how is commonality determined?". An answer was "there is no one way", however, I pointed out the WP:naming conflict page, and the items: dealing with self-identifying terms, and using external sources.
Again, please tell me which of the points listed there point to the use of Kiev.
I do have one question about the validity of a book published about what was happening over 100 years ago, however: did a book like that also affect the naming of the pages about Siam?
Thanks, Horlo 00:00, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
Russian has a sound very similar to the "H" ( Kha) which can easily be substituted for the "G" sound ( Ghe).
Some cases are less clear-cut. There is a trend in part of the modern news media and maps to use native names of places and people, even if there is a long-accepted English name. For example, US newspapers generally refer to the Olympics in Torino even though most English texts still call the city Turin. However, newspapers in other parts of the English speaking world still use Turin. One should use judgment in such cases as to what would be the least surprising to a user finding the article. Whichever is chosen, one should place a redirect at the other title and mention both forms in the lead. At the same time, when there is no long-established history of usage of the term, more consideration should be given to the correctness of translation, rather than frequency of usage (in a typical example of testing the usage by counting Google hits, if one version gets 92 hits, while another one gets 194 hits, it can hardly be decisive).
Hello,
Actually, there are many more criteria listed on the page. I'm not sure how you could miss them. I will, however, take the liberty of adding them here, to make it easier for you:
First, the google test: however, an Advanced google test, with filters set for English, and look at the results, don't just count them. Please note that in the quote above, a two-time (200%) difference is not considered decisive;
Second, major organizations. Please do not try to google what an organization uses, please go to the organizations' sites and look how they present themselves in English when discussing Ukraine. If this is difficult for you, please tell me and I can paste direct links for you;
Third, other encyclopedia. Encyclopedia Brittanica and Colliers use Kiev, while Encarta uses Kyiv.
Fourth, media organizations. This is split. Again, please don't google what the organization uses, go to their sites and use their internal search engines. Again, look at the results, don't just count them;
Fifth, government sources. Please see what the governments of EVERY English speaking country use when describing the name of the capital of Ukraine.
Sixth, scientific literature. I don't think that applies here, because it suggests magazines/organizations that deal with pure and applied sciences.
This goes in concert with the "dealing with self-identifying terms" entry. Reginmund, please don't say that Kyiv is more like Mt. Everest than it is like Gdansk again.
This goes in concert with However, it is not set in stone and should be treated with common sense and the occasional exception (by the way, that is from the top of the [WP:naming conflict] page, not original research).
Thanks, Horlo 01:59, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
Reginmund 02:09, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
Hello,
Which words did I interpret incorrectly? You compared Kyiv to Mt. Everest here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Kiev/naming/archive_002#Naming_discussion_results
Your exact quote was : 5. You make the point that the city is the institution in self-identification. Here is something that you may have missed:
A distinction should be drawn between a self-identifying entity and an inanimate entity. An inanimate geographical feature such as a sea or mountain does not have its own name for itself (obviously). Thus the English name Mount Everest is just as arbitrary as the local name, Qomolangma. The use of "Mount Everest" as the definitive term in Wikipedia is simply a matter of convenience, as the mountain is far more widely known by the English name than by its native Tibetan one.
Now substitute "Mount Everest" with "Kiev" and "Qomolangma" with "Kyiv".
(Please note that this quote is not the first thing in that category, and you have to scroll down a bit.)
All of these alternatives are substitute to the common name conflict and by that, the common name should be taken seriously first. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but that sounds like you think that Kiev is more common.
If you can live with that interpretation, we can continue. Please let me know if I am twisting your words.
Now, I think that Kyiv is more common. Therefore, we have a naming conflict. Therefore, we need to look at all of the other measuring sticks. Hence, the suggestions on the naming conflict resolution page.
Again, did you notice that in the quote you provided, a 200% difference "can hardly be decisive"?
By the way, do you have any comment about: However, it is not set in stone and should be treated with common sense and the occasional exception?
Thanks, Horlo 02:28, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
However, it is not set in stone and should be treated with common sense and the occasional exception
Hello,
Reginmund, please stop cherry picking. In that section, I said that Kyiv is a self-identifying term, and that should be taken into consideration when choosing the name. That is clearly outlined here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:Naming_conflict#Types_of_entities. I was quoting the second paragraph, which deals with city, country, or people. You thought that the first paragraph, which deals with mountains and rivers, was more appropriate. If you don't remember that discussion, please go back and re-read it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Kiev/naming/archive_002#Naming_discussion_results
About the quote that you provided, here it is again: At the same time, when there is no long-established history of usage of the term, more consideration should be given to the correctness of translation, rather than frequency of usage (in a typical example of testing the usage by counting Google hits, if one version gets 92 hits, while another one gets 194 hits, it can hardly be decisive). Where does it mention what is "correct"? Wikipedia does not judge what is "correct".
What does this sentence: "Now, Kiev is incorrect, so the Google test is actually decisive in this case." mean? I would hate to misinterpret it.
However, it is not set in stone and should be treated with common sense and the occasional exception. Here is a good reason: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Kiev/naming#Jehochman.27s_point_of_view
Thanks, Horlo 03:30, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
I didn't cherry-pick it. I am telling you what I meant by that comparison and by you saying that I meant that Kiev is a mountain, that is cherry picking. I already toold you my point and I outlined it there to.
Read right before that sentence. it mentions that if the name is incorrect, it can hardly be considered superior on the Google test.
"Now, Kiev is incorrect, so the Google test is actually decisive in this case."
-Now this is just a typo, a double negative I actually meant correct, hence the argument is that since Google tests shouldn't be taken seriously for an incorrect name, that is irrelevant with Kiev since it is not incorrect. Reginmund 03:48, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
Hello,
Actually, I said that it was a city, you said "Now substitute "Mount Everest" with "Kiev" and "Qomolangma" with "Kyiv". What exactly is your point in that sentence? Perhaps I am misenterpreting that you want to compare the city to the mountain, when you said that. Perhaps, on the other hand, you missed the entire point of that entire section, which says that cities are inherently different from mountains, and even though the mountain's preferred name for itself can be ignored, the city's preferred name for itself should be considered when making a decision.
Here is the rest of the quote you provided: Some cases are less clear-cut. There is a trend in part of the modern news media and maps to use native names of places and people, even if there is a long-accepted English name. For example, US newspapers generally refer to the Olympics in Torino even though most English texts still call the city Turin. However, newspapers in other parts of the English speaking world still use Turin. One should use judgment in such cases as to what would be the least surprising to a user finding the article. Whichever is chosen, one should place a redirect at the other title and mention both forms in the lead. Please show me where it talks about "incorrect" names.
It says "one should use judgment in such cases as to what would be the least surprising". It mentions nothing of correct or incorrect. It goes on to give a typical example of testing the usage by google hits. It says nothing of google being the only, or even the best criterion.
Do you have anything else about: However, it is not set in stone and should be treated with common sense and the occasional exception?
Thanks, Horlo 04:01, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
My point is that no matter what it is, a city, a mountain, a flying saucer, or a rogue cryptid, we should classify these things as our language does, not as a foreign language prescribes for us. Perhaps I should have been more specific and used this policy.
At the same time, when there is no long-established history of usage of the term, more consideration should be given to the correctness of translation, rather than frequency of usage
...which immediately goes to how the Google test is irrelevant in the case of the name being incorrect. In this case, "Kiev" is not incorrect so the Google test is legitimate.
Now I don't know what you want be to say about this:
However, it is not set in stone and should be treated with common sense and the occasional exception
...but do you have any comments about this exception? Because you brought it up. Reginmund 04:27, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
Hello,
Apparently you did miss the entire point of the section. It says that the wishes of everybody should be considered. Nobody's prescribing anything to you. Nobody's forcing you to say anything. However, you apparently also missed the point here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Kiev/naming#Silly_story. Nobody can force anybody to say anything. But what does it say about you that your answer to that person is "You want to be called Johnathan, but I don't care, I'll call you what I want to call you?" Believe it or not, this entire section http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:Naming_conflict#Types_of_entities says that cities can also choose their own names.
Thank you for pointing out that there are correct, and by association, incorrect translations. Perhaps other users would also like to hear about that. In that case, how do you determine the "correct" translation? Perhaps at what, say, governments use, seeing as they are the ones in charge of printing school textbooks?
The reason that I brought up this quote However, it is not set in stone and should be treated with common sense and the occasional exception is that sometimes some editors just cannot accept that a name change has happened, and just keep saying "we've always done it this way".
Thanks, Horlo 05:11, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
What do you mean when you say that "nobody's forcing you to say anything"?
I have already gone over the "silly story". If Russians want to call Harry Potter "Garry Potter", then I can't stop them and I have no reason to stop them. However, Russians shouldn't be complaining if I want to call Peter the Great Peter and not Pyotr. It is not their language. They don't dictate how it should be used. The same applies to Kiev. Ukranians don't dictate to Anglophones how to use our language and we don't dictate to Russians how to use theirs, regardless if the subject is foreign.
English does not have an academy. The British or U.S. governemnt does not decide how the language should be used. Also not that companies completely unassociated with the government print textbooks. Not the governemnt.
To your argument that "some editors cannot accept the name change". That is merely a point of view. Those editors think that there is no academy that changes the name and that is a perfectly legitimate argument in this case. Reginmund 05:24, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
Could we all try to use indenting because that makes it easier to follow who's responding to whom.
Hello,
I'm sorry about the lack of indentation.
Reginmund, I said that "nobody is prescribing anything to you". When I say nobody is forcing you to say anything, I mean nobody is forcing you to say anything. Say anything you want.
Now you seem to be mixing up "silly story" and Harry Potter. Silly story says that when somebody directly asks you to call them something, you should. When a piece of literature is translated into a foreign language, it will be changed to reflect that language, so the translators and publishers can make a lot of money. There is no connection between those two items. If you meet somebody who says please call me "Jorge" and you say "Mm, no, I will call you George", you're being rude. Not much good faith happening there.
You're right, English does not have an academy. However, there are schools in the Anglosphere. Schools use books, which are made for the government. Pearson, the company that your link led to, is indeed a very large printing company, as are Thopmson and Longman, but they do not write textbooks. People from the government tell them what they need, then the publishing companies find somebody who can write it, then they write it, then it goes to the government for approval, then it goes back to the writer for revision, then back to the government for approval, then again other people in the government look at it, then requisitions for funds are made, then the funds are advanced, then the books get published, and distributed to schools. Thank you, but you don't need to teach me how/by whom textbooks are written. The funds are directly controlled by governments, so the books are made exactly how the governments want them to be made. That is why the decisions by governments do directly influence common usage, and should be considered when determining what is popular. Every government uses Kyiv.
Finally, your arguments about there being no academy and commonality have worn thin. That's why I brought up the point of "the occasional exception" and "common sense". If the best argument that you can legitimately put forth is "there is no academy", backed up by "no foreign government can tell us in the anglosphere how to use our language" and "What was used a century ago is still used today. it still has a substantial effect today", it shows a distinct lack of good faith on your part.
Thanks, Horlo 06:35, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
Eduvalko, I fully agree. The issue at hand is where is a tipping point. This was discussed ad naseum and our WP:NCGN specifically mention checking major media. If we see major media changing their usage, than there would be time to seriously look at it. We should follow the trends best reflected by those who really matter: Britannica, Oxford, major English papers [14] and international media like BBC, CNN, Fox, AP, Reuters, AFP. So far all of them use Kiev. Literally all. So, this "discussion" is a waste of time at this point. -- Irpen 16:33, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
Horlo, I did not comment on Jehochman's post not because I have nothing to answer but because I am not in the habit of answering repeated questions I asnwered earlier. His entry has several faulty premises which were addressed before. First, the respect to the decisions of the foreign governments how something should be called in English language is not anywhere in the naming conventions of Wikipedia or style manuals of any other publisher. Second, there is absolutely no indication that the Ukrainian people prefer Kyiv. There is simply no relevant study. Most people don't care. I, a Ukrainian person, have no such preference and I know many Ukrainian people who don't either. Now, I am not entitled to bring in my personal observations into Wikipedia. But so is anyone who claim to know the Ukrainian people preference. However, even if those where true, which they are not, still there is no such mention (preference of non-English speakers, in the naming convention. Now, as for choosing which media are more representative, there is no clear-cut rule. We need some common sense. It is difficult to argue that the most widely read and listened to English language media companies that set trends in the news business are (not necessarily in that order) CNN, BBC, Fox, AP and Reuters. How exactly Lexis chose these particular papers is spelled out at the top of their page. You are free to show a respected media search engine that define such list differently. I ran an analysis of these papers through Lexis some months ago and the advantage of Kiev was overwhelming. So it is for BBC, CNN, Fox, AP and Reuters. The latter 5 you can google. If you want the results of the Lexis major papers search (you would need subscription to their premium service) I can do that and produce their latest statistics. You won't like the results, I assure you, but feel free to ask. Major media, Britannica, OED seem to agree with each other. You don't. Fine, type a dozen of more screens on this page. Since your rabid activity does not disrupt the main talk page, I have no problem with that. -- Irpen 18:48, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
Please check WP:RS for the primary and secondary sources. Government write laws but they do not regulate languages, at least not English. If the Kravchuk's government renamed the city to say, Kravchukiv, that would have been a different story. It did not. All it did is issues an instruction to the governmental offices on how the name, which did not change, should be spelled in the governmental documents. The Ukrainian government has no authority to order anything else as far as the language is concerned. English language uses both and neither is wrong. But one of the two prevails by a wide margin while the other one trails badly. Therefore, most style manuals of respectable sources stick with the name they consider more appropriate to use. When and if the usage changes, Britannica, Oxford, CNN and Wikipedia would adjust to that. -- Irpen 21:34, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
Horlo, points don't "wear thin" and the "exception" isn't an argument winner. You can't mix a person's name and a toponym in a different language. They have no relation. It is just rude and arrogant for a foreign governemnt to change the name of their city in a language that isn't even theirs. That is why we don't call Peter the Great Pyotr. As for the books, you are wrong. The governemnt does not control the printing of Pearson's books. Pearson does. They own Prentic Hall which prints educational books for schools. All the government does is approve the books. Please don't get off topic. Reginmund 21:52, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
If you're going to be sarcastic, I'm not going to waste my time with you. Reginmund 00:10, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
Kuban kazak wrote: Because Moldovan language uses a Latin alpabet, and for not-well known names it is fully acceptable to name them in their respective language (unlike Bucharest or Munich).
Kuban kazak wrote: The word Kishinev was never popular in English,
I still can't undertand why the Molodovan government can request the name of their capital Kishinev (Kishinef, Kishiniof, Kishiniov) can be changed to Chisinau with it's non English looking diacritical marks yet Kyiv cannot. What is holding the change over back. 00:41, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
Because Moldovan uses the Latin alphabet and the name was taken directly from their version. Reginmund 01:28, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
You have to ask professional editors who write style manuals why they changed Kishinev for Chisinau but did not change Kiev to Kyiv. My guess is that Kiev was a more widely used word in English simply because it is a larger and more important city. Relatively (to Kiev) obscure Lviv was also written in English books as Lwow, Lemberg and Lvov. It is still written such in historic context but not in the modern one. Kiev remains a prevailing usage both in historic and modern context and the article's title reflects the prevailing English name. We do not make judgments. We reflect the usage. -- Irpen 02:48, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
It is the Latin alphabet which is perfectly acceptabe on Wikipedia. Reginmund 06:19, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
Suppose for a moment that the USA was taken over by a another country. In an attempt to impose their native language upon Americans they "rename" all they cities to their current translation of those cities' names. In this process, New York becomes "Nueva York." Over the years the countries of the world adopt various translations of this new name. After say, 100 years or so, the USA regains its independence and announces that "Nueva York" is once again New York, but the countries of the world retain their translations of "Nueva York" as they are in common usage. Would this be proper? Should the citizens of the USA be offended by this? Just wondering what everyone thinks about this, not speaking in support or opposition to Kiev vs. Kyiv here. I have done that elsewhere. Srilm 12:13, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
OK, now I will hop back in. It shouldn't be tiresome to discuss it. That's what this section is all about. If it's tiresome, don't discuss it. My opinion -- it doesn't matter what was used 12 years ago, or 800 years ago. What matters is what name do the people (not just a person, but the people through their elected government or representatives) use. And the "people" have chosen to reinstate the name of their native language, as opposed to the name in the language of a previous ruler. I think that the English-speaking world should set an example and acknowledge that the name of this city (it's not just a change of spelling of the same name, but a change of name in different languages) has changed. I chose New York for this very reason -- it's not a native American name, it's English! New York was not the name of New York 500 years ago, but if the natives ever take back over, I'd bet they'll change the name, and I would acknowledge th at. Srilm 16:31, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
English does not have an academy. English is determined by the consensus of its users, Not by any government, especially a governemnt that doesn't even use English as their official language. They have no business dictating for us how to use their language. Do we tell Pakistan how to spell "London" or "Chicago" in Punjabi? No, and we have no need to. Reginmund 16:44, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
I see a lot of replies about the English language and no one being able to tell English-speakers how to use their language. I don't contest this. I don't see it as an issue. What I keep asking and no one contests is -- how should English-speakers respond to the fact that the elected government of Ukraine has changed the name of their capital city from Ки́ев to Київ -- two different words in two different languages? Srilm 16:58, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
To Srilm, it is an issue. That is why we have a policy on it.
Reginmund 23:28, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
Hello, to Orange Mike, a follow-up question: when you did find out that people wanted to change the name of their capital city, did it offend you? When you heard that China requested their capital be called Beijing, did you just say, whatever, it's your city?
Hello,
Just in case it was missed, here is the entire guideline: How to make a choice among controversial names
Article names
Wikipedia's technical and practical requirements mean that one particular name must be used as the definitive name of an article. If the particular name has negative connotations for a party, the decision can be controversial; some may perceive the choice as being one that promotes a POV with which they disagree.
Wikipedians should not seek to determine who is "right" or "wrong", nor to attempt to impose a particular name for POV reasons. They should instead follow the procedure below to determine common usage on an objective basis. By doing this, ideally, we can choose a name in a systematic manner without having to involve ourselves in a political dispute.
The procedure for determining article names differs somewhat between the two principal classes of names – proper nouns (e.g. George W. Bush, United Nations) or descriptive names (e.g. GNU/Linux naming controversy, 2005 Atlantic hurricane season).
Proper nouns
The three key principles are:
* The most common use of a name takes precedence; * If the common name conflicts with the official name, use the common name except for conflicting scientific names; * If neither the common name nor the official name is prevalent, use the name (or a translation thereof) that the subject uses to describe itself or themselves.
A number of objective criteria can be used to determine common or official usage:
* Is the name in common usage in English? (check Google, other reference works, websites of media, government and international organisations) * Is it the official current name of the subject? (check if the name is used in a legal context, e.g. a constitution) * Is it the name used by the subject to describe itself or themselves? (check if it is a self-identifying term)
Please note the last section, where it says that a number of objective criteria can be used to determine common usage. Also, please note that it does not say only Google, nor does it give a number/percentage which is considered decisive.
One more time: Google is, well, please look at it for yourself, with the Advanced Google Search filters for English pages. Media outside the US is split. Reference works are more difficult to judge, as Google Scholar has no filter for languages, and there is a very prolific American-Ukrainian psychologist, Ari Kiev, who has written literally thousands of works that show up there. All governments use Kyiv. All major organizations - UN [15], The World Bank [16], NATO, [17], and the OSCE [18].
Even if you consider that according to these criteria the two are tied/equal, the name should be Kyiv, according to the final point: if neither is prevalent, use the name that the subject uses for itself.
Thanks, Horlo 00:32, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
How are reference works difficult to judge? And now we're dumping on Google? They both show a significantly higher percentage for Kiev. The Google test consistently shows Kiev to be 25% higher. Plus, these obstacles are actually second choices to the common name rule. If the common name is indecisive, then that is when you turn to the organisations and gov'ts etc. Reginmund 01:23, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
* Is the name in common usage in English? (check Google, other reference works, websites of media, government and international organisations)
Please also note that is states "websites of media", and doesn't say run google searches of what the media organization uses.
Thanks, Horlo 01:44, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
and Kiev, 2,130,000 here: [20] That is an 8.25% difference, not a 25% difference, and I guarantee that if you run the test in a few hours, the results will be different.
The subject calls itself Київ, however, changing the name outside of the Latin alphabet is forbidden by Wikipedia. Reginmund 03:35, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
What is there to do here? Ukraine = independent nation, wants names in English. Kiev = English version. en.wikipedia.org = English encyclopedia. Therefore, Kiev. I'd imagine then if someone forced a rename to some other format, it would be vandalism that needed admins, but otherwise, what is the point? Case settled, or am I incorrect? • Lawrence Cohen 13:37, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
Commonly used English translations of self-identifying terms are usually preferred per Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English) guideline. For example: "Japanese" and not Nihon-jin.
Any reasonable objections with reasons why, before I or someone else enacts such a move? Say, tomorrow? That is, Move Kiev -> to Kyiv, leaving the old Kiev as a redirect to Kyiv? • Lawrence Cohen 17:51, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
Eduvalko, the fact that the UA-gov's choice affects the usage overall is a valid one and I never dispute that. What I dispute is that the mere UA-gov decision over the language over which it has no jurisdiction should be the reason why we change the name in the Wikipedia. So, all UA-gov bodies use Kyiv. This affects the overall usage statistics. UN uses Kyiv. Very well, duly noted. Britannica, Columbia, Oxford and Webster use Kiev though. Should we also take a note of the choice by the most authoritative reference books and dictionaries published in English? I think so.
Let's check the major media. They all use Kiev, at least practically all. This has much more effect on the usage then the governmental web-sites. -- Irpen 21:14, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
Not only change takes time, change does not always make it. We have to sit and watch. If we see a significant change in major media, we should revisit the issue. As for "incorrect", I am sorry, but I consider the professional book editors who compile style manuals for the respected publishers and media agencies more of an authority in the English language to accept their view that this version is correct than the view of the pseudonymous Wikipedia user who thinks otherwise. --- Irpen 21:40, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
Eduvalko, are you spelling my username that way to make a point? Anyway, if this pleases you... Why would western governments not agree to do something if it costs them nothing just to please the Ukrainian government and demonstrate their non-existing respect to the Ukraine in the issue that matters little to them? It's not like opening the European and US markets to the Ukrainian steal products, rescinding the visa requirements for the Ukrainian citizens or setting a roadmap for the acceptance to the EU. Those issue matter and would cost the Western government something to do. Changing the signs on the embassy buildings is easy, costs nothing and if one is asked to, why not? -- Irpen 01:43, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
I am afraid people are not realizing that this drive for name change is not triggered by some teenage nationalists but by a serious underlying issues. First of all you have to realize that millions of people in Ukraine now deal with Kyiv spelling in all foreign language media, including the major English language newspaper Kyiv Post. For them the Kiev spelling is a gross injustice, even though it is still current in many places. That's why it is not going away any time soon. Yes, the gov't of Ukraine has no business dictating what the English word should be, but neither did the Chinese gov't with Peking-Beijing issue. Moreover, there are a million and a half of ethnic Ukrainians in North America alone, for whom English is not a foreign language but their own and they also have been instrumental to bring the new spelling into use. Sweeping it under the rug and declaring it none of Ukrainians' business is wrong. By virtue of English being mother tongue of so many Ukrainians and of it being an international language it does matter what Ukrainians want their capital city be called. The problem is that unlike in Pekin-Beijing issue there was no powerful opposition to the name change, there were no other nation with imperialist dreams of preserving Peking as the only true name. Apart from lingustic issue it is deeply rooted into politics as well. For millions of people this has been a decided issue for almost a decade, it is just a matter of time until Wikipedia catches up. -- Hillock65 21:45, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
Bejing is the most common name in English, is it not? That sounds quite strange that the spelling is an injustice. It sounds like you are turning this into a political issue which it shouldn't be. It doesn't matter if they are Ukrainian, Russian, British, American, or Martian. Sure there may be Ukranian Americans that contribute to "Kyiv" but there are also other Anglophones who are no less important to count. Reginmund 22:21, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
Yes, you are turning it into a political issue. It should be about why governemnts don't choose foreign spellings, not why governemnts should choose foreign spellings. Reginmund 22:48, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
Can somebody who is familiar with this situation explain why Soviet nostalgia would have anything to do with this renaming controversy? - Jehochman Talk 05:21, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
Let's try this...
If I'm following this correctly then; the legally elected Ukraine government dropped the Soviet imposed name which translated to English as "Kiev" to be Kyiv (translated) instead reflecting their chosen national language of Ukrainian; all English language world governments and major international organizations (United Nations, World Bank, etc.) now honor the Ukraine government's "Kyiv" usage; "Kyiv" is also the best or literal English-language translation of the Ukrainian language version of the word. On the still-using-Kiev side of the fence we have the Western (American) media and the Russians...? Internet usage shows that the preponderance of Kiev vs. Kyiv is roughly a 50%/50% split (keeping in mind that a lof the Kiev stuff is likely the legacy of the 20th century Soviet naming which is now redundant, as the Ukraine is now an independent nation.
Not getting into a question of wikipolicy or anything like that, is this a correct assessment of the basic situation overall in regards to the name? • Lawrence Cohen 17:34, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
This all got me so curious I did a completely non-scientific test for frequency of usage for each term in English language Internet searches. Specific numbers may vary slightly by whatever Google farm you end up hitting.
Some search tests (unscientific):
General search, then: roughly 7:1 in favor of "Kiev". Not overly scientific, but we see that when we exclude anything that says "2007" in the page, text, or title it changes drastically. This is to eliminate any possible instances from the past year, assuming the pages--and that would be all news sources, reasonably--to see what pops up. Then, Kiev only has a 1.9:1 advantage. If I search to include 2007, so that presumably only a majority of 'new' pages come up:
Now we're down to a 1.725:1 advantage for Kiev. So, lets try an experiment: (these are adjusted now with -wikipedia) • Lawrence Cohen 20:38, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
So, year by year ratio:
|
|
Summary: From 1998 to 2006, the prevalance of Kiev over Kyiv has been significantly dropping. From 3.34:1 in 1999, to 1.58:1 in 2006. For some reason it appears to spike this year, but darned if I can tell why (a statistics wizard may known an answer, but I take this an anomoly). Coupled with the fact that each year the usage of Kyiv in general rises dramatically from 657k in 1998 to 2,190,000 in 2006, I think it's a pretty clear barometer that the world is honoring the Ukraine's wishes, online. Note that the 2006 numbers almost do approach the mythic 50/50 split mentioned again and again. Thoughts? •
Lawrence Cohen 20:38, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
I updated it with -wikipedia exclusions. I don't think we should limit it to just English language searches, for purposes of this. We're trying to get an idea of what the world actually considers more common. Excluding Wikipedia from searches didn't make much difference, and the trend remains steady. The word "Kyiv" is going to completely bypass Kiev in total usage in a few years at this rate, and all notable bodies of authority besides some media are apparently already using the city's true name (translated) of Kyiv. • Lawrence Cohen 20:38, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
Out of curiosity, I did a search for just English as you suggested, Michael, on a string like this, and got:
Hello,
First, could somebody please explain how the date filters work on a google search? For example, in a previous discussion, it was suggested that the CBC used Kiev 212 times in the last three months, but only 202 times in the last year (which includes the last three months). The entire last year is lower than only the last three months. I think that this casts doubt on how the filters work.
Second, I have posted screenshots of advanced google searches, here: http://www.freewebs.com/horlo/kyiv1.htm These were taken on or around September 2, 2007
There are sets. Kiev1 matches Kyiv1, Kiev2 matches Kyiv2, etc. On all the sets, Kyiv was higher than Kiev.
Thanks, Horlo 22:40, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
Above, Horlo made the claim that the google numbers I provided a few times before, concern texts in the Ukrainian language. Anyone who has had a look at them should immediately have seen that they concerned English (marked bold by Google!) pages only. Of course, google always misinterprets a few results wrong, because web masters all over the world sometimes unwittingly (because of the software they are using) mark texts as English language text, though they are not. In fact, anyone who thinks rationally, will understand that the presence in the google samples of a small number texts in the Ukrainian language, actually helps the Kyiv transliteration in the google fight, and not the Kiev one.
However, and because I have posted these two URLs often enough by now, I have refined the search, by adding the word "the" to the search string. As expected, both numbers go down, but the "Kyiv" one even more:
The proportion Kiev/Kyiv is now closer to 6/1. We have 84% transliteration to "Kiev", and 16% transliteration to "Kyiv".
Note that I filtered "wiki" out, and added the proviso that "Kiev" or "Kyiv" should be in the body of the page, and that the URL name of the page does not count. The first filter does not influence the result, but the second one does: it benefits "Kyiv" because of urls including the sequence "kiev.ua". I advise other googlers to take this into account as well when filtering their googles, since some of the marginal decrease over the years in the Kiev/Kyiv proportion reported above, may actually be due to the fast increasing number of English pages published in the kiev.ua domain.
These two numbers give a good picture of how Ukrainains themselves transliterated the Ukrainian name of their capital into English during the last year, because of the filter ".ua".
That the Ukrainians themeselves are primarily responsible for the recent rise of the Kiev/Kyiv proportion is clear from the following google number on Kyiv where I just dropped the .ua domain requirement:
That last number is for "Kyiv the" in the body of the text of English language texts (though there may be some false ones here, since Google will also find "thé" which is "tea" in a number of languages) during the last year. As you see, this number is only marginally higher than Kiev in English language pages from the Ukraine ("Kiev the" in English all over the world goes up to 2,130,000).
Note that due to traffic restrictions, www.google.com is basically out of reach in Belgium. I used the English version of www.google.be, though I also had a look at www.google.fr, where I got the same results.
This false claim about my "Ukrainian" googles (I repeat: these are English-language texts written by Ukrainians) are part of a broader pattern of systematic misinterpretation by pro-change editors of what Irpen (a Ukrainian!) and others have said here. And because most Westerners have no clue about East European subtleties, they are getting away with it. -- Pan Gerwazy 10:24, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
On the issue of internet usage in Ukraine, which is also only tangentially relevant to this discussion, the web publication Ukrainska Pravda on 13 September 2007 posted an article containing stats and trends. The estimates of regular internet users varies from 1.1 million (Government Statistics Committee- DerzhKomStat) to 1.5 - 2.5 million by the NGO Internet Association of Ukraine to 5.2 million by Miniwatts Marketing Group. The highest estimate puts regular internet usage in Ukraine at 11.5%, the lowest in Europe, but growing at the fastest rate.
http://epravda.com.ua/news_print/2007/9/13/56806.htm
Those familiar with the internet will know that the discussion about google has more to do with the way search engines operate than any indication of common usage in any language. Perhaps this is not terribly useful for moving forward with this debate.
The issue at hand is about naming and language usage. The three languages involved are Ukrainian, English and Russian. Some names and geographic places have three versions, such as Petro (Ukrainian), Peter (English) and Piotr (Russian). There are no debates whether the correct English version is Piotr the Great, or Peter the Great, or Petro the Great. Other terms have only two versions, for example the major river in Ukraine, Dnipro (Ukrainian) and Dniepr (Russian). In these cases debates arise about the English usage. For historic and political reasons, the Russian version had been adopted in the past by the English language, and this was the case with the capital city. Political changes of 1991 prompted changes in the English language versions of places in Ukraine, as well as resistance, mainly from those upset with the change of the previous status quo. These debates are now playing out on the talk pages of Wikipedia. My reading of this debate is that the arguments against moving the page to Kyiv with a redirect to Kiev are looking back to the past rather than at the present reality. The question is whether Wikipedia follows its own rules and procedures on naming and is interested in accuracy.
As an aside, there is no need to insult the intelligence of people who are not native to Eastern Europe nor assume a false universality of ‘East European subtleties.’ Some ‘Westerners’ (whoever that is meant to represent) are more informed about events in Europe than those living there. Furthermore, despite certain commonalities, there are marked differences between Poles and Russians, for example, Czechs and Slovaks, not to mention Ukrainians.
Martauwo 16:31, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
Should we use the Ukrainian name as commonly transliterated into English, or the Russian name as commonly transliterated into English? Is Ukrainian a provincial dialect of Russian, or a distinct language? - Jehochman Talk 17:28, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
Ukrainian was considered a non-language by Russian intellectuals, a dialect of Russian in the 19th century. It was initially secretly prohibited by the Valuev Circular in 1863 and then banned by the Russian government in the Ems Ukaz of 1876. There has been a struggle to have the language recognised ever since.
Excerpts from the Ukaz:
- The importation into the Russian Empire, without special permission of the Central Censorship over Printing, of all books and pamphlets in the Little Russian dialect, published abroad, is forbidden,
- The printing and publishing in the Empire of original works and translations in this dialect is forbidden with the exception of (a) historical documents and monuments; (b) works of belles-lettres but with the provision that in the documents the orthography of the originals be retained; in works of belles-lettres no deviations from the accepted Russian orthography are permitted and permission for their printing may be given only by the Central Censorship over Printing.
- All theatrical performances and lectures in the Little Russian dialect, as well as printing of text to musical notes, are forbidden. [1]
It is still enforced today in Russia proper, particularly in the Kuban. Bandurist 18:13, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
Google test 25% higher. I didn't say that I "think" that the BBC uses it more. Take your schtick to a publisher of alternative history novels because you're writing fiction. Reginmund 22:02, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
Hello,
Irpen, you have brought up two important points when determining commonality - media and reference works.
However, I would like to remind you of the other methods mentioned for determining commonality - namely, the ones on the WP:Naming conflict page. Here the are:
A number of objective criteria can be used to determine common or official usage:
government and international organisations).
Please note that reference works and websites of media are mentioned, so are Governments and International Organizations.
With respect to Google, please look at that yourself. I have posted some screenshots, but have been accused of lying and doctoring them. It fluctuates to the point where it is not a valuable yardstick.
With respect to reference works, the majority use Kiev. However, let us not forget that Encarta, uses Kyiv. The people who make Microsoft are also quite professional and knowledgeable.
I have stated my arguments about using Google Scholar, so here, I will simply show the WP policy: False positives
Search engine tests should be used with care: in testing whether a name is widely accepted English usage, we are interested in hits which are in English, represent English usage, and mean the place in question. Search engine results can fail on all of these.
With respect to media, not mostly all use Kiev. If you actually follow the suggestions and go to the CBC website, for example, you will see that Kyiv appears in 26 articles from 2007, while Kiev appears in 4 (from 2007). This flows from the guideline: Always look at search results, don't just count them. For more, see the section on false positives below. On the BBC Website, Kyiv has 3 hits for 2007, while Kiev has 6. They do NOT only use Kiev. Please don't google CBC, go to CBC and count. Do the same for the Australian BC.
With respect to governments, they ALL use Kyiv.
With respect to organizations, they ALL use Kyiv.
Please don't say that because nobody you know uses Kyiv, it isn't common. That's what they said about Nixon once, too.
Thanks, Horlo 00:37, 21 September 2007 (UTC)sorry, just a quick formatting change to make it more readable Horlo 01:07, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
Thank you. Is consensus in this case subject to overrule the proper name of a place? I will yield of course to the proper way of doing things. Can consensus change a simple fact like a legal place name? • Lawrence Cohen 05:02, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
The homepage of the BBC, http://www.bbc.co.uk/?ok, has the lead story: Suu Kyi greets Burma protesters . Funnily enough, when I tried to find Burma on Wikipedia, I was re-directed to a page called Myanmar.
Interesting.
Thanks, Horlo 19:40, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
So what does this have to do with Kiev? Reginmund 21:01, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
So then what governments do doesn't have to be what Wikipedia does. What other reason could a government change their "official" name of a foreign city. Diplomatic reasons. There's just too much political bias in that. However, the media doesn't need to base their MOS how a foreign government wants it. Reginmund 21:56, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
Kazakhstan was able to change the name of its capital in post-Soviet times from the Russian Alma-Ata to the Kazakh Almaty despite having a 50-60% Russian population in the city - and they didn't have latin characters either like Kishinev in Moldova. Maybe Borat helped with his movie (xoxoxo). I still can't understand why we can't do it with Kyiv. Recently they changed the name of the Bayqongyr (Baykonur) space launch facilities and also the city known as Shevchenko was been changed to ( Aqtau which to me looks more difficult to pronounce than Shevchenko. Bandurist 02:09, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
With regard to what Eduvalko said in the entry above about the greater proportion of editors supporting a move of the name change, and referencing Pan Gerwasy's entry from the previous section about Irpen's comments against the move and noting that he/she is Ukrainian.......I would like to submit again that several of the editors, including Irpen, are either ethnicaly Russian (regargless of being born in Ukraine), post that thier native mother tongue is Russian. That being said, I can understand their resistance ...for this has always been and still is an example of the those who were in charge not wanting to let go. Ukraine (not the Ukraine) is finally an independent country trying to overcome the ex-soviet mentality in all aspects concerning the country....and for this discussion, the language, the self identifying term - Kyiv. I submit that the editors who so strongly oppose the move ask themselves if it is really the wikipedia polocies that this so strongly believe in or is it something else? If they won't ask themselves that question, then the fair minded readers, editors and administrators of Wikipedia should. Bosska 14:52, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
Stop turning this into a political issue. Just because one is either ethnically Russian or Ukranian, doesn't mean that they would either support or oppose the move because of anti-Russian/Ukranian sentiment. However, the ones that bring up the matter of the Wikipedians' nationalities seem to have their opinions driven by their anti-Russian sentiment. That includes Horlo, Eduvalko, Bandurist and possibly others, I haven't skimmed the entire discussion yet. Now you ask if the Wikipedians have an ulterior motive iin their politics (no pun intended). Well take it from a Wikipedian whom is neither Russian or Ukranian, I implement Wikipedia's policy and nothing else. Reginmund 15:18, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
Hello,
Reginmund, stop saying that Kiev is more common without ever supporting that. All you do is claim that the google shows 25% more hits for Kiev.
First, I have never seen that, and you have never shown proof for that. I have shown proof when Kyiv was higher than Kiev, but you still call me a liar, and stated that I probably doctored the images in Photoshop. Now you expect me to take your word that Kiev is higher on good faith?
Second, google is only one part of the method of determining commonality. If you keep ignoring the other four, stop saying that you simply implement Wikipedia policy, or follow Wikipedia policy. By the way, did you notice the part on the WP:UE page that says: These guidelines are under development, and also, the part in the big square at the top that says However, it is not set in stone and should be treated with common sense and the occasional exception.
Stop trying to make yourself out to be the defender of the Wikipedia policy, when you seem to miss policies you don't agree with.
Thanks, Horlo 16:18, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
I've already told everyone to do the test themselves and see that Kiev is more common. I don't expect you to do anything but I wouldn't trust your images as you have refused to yield to consensus and use sockpupppets to prove your point. I wouldn't be surprised if you Photosop your images.
Don't think that the "common sense" alternative is the ultimate argument winner because it isn't. You say that yet you don't provide reasoning for common sense. You just say something that goes against another policy.
Ever wonder why I don't trust you? Because you lie. I have never skipped any policies whatsoever that you brought forth. You are just angry that your nationalist agenda has been proven wrong on all of these occassions. Obviously I won't trust anyone that crusades their nationalism on the talk page. Reginmund 16:26, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
Hello, Reginmund, I have run the test, and I have never found it to be 25% higher for Kiev.
You have skipped the four points about choosing between controversial names on the naming conflict resolution page after the google test.
Even Irpen has accepted that I only do not use different accounts. It happened once, and that's all.
The reasoning I provided to use common sense is that this is a self-identifying name. A great example where common sense was used is the naming for the Myanmar article.
Please don't turn this into a political issue. And stop saying that Kiev is more common when the only thing that you can support that with is a google test result.
Thanks, Horlo 16:56, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
Where self-identifying names are in use, they should be used within articles. Wikipedia does not take any position on whether a self-identifying entity has any right to use a name; this encyclopedia merely notes the fact that they do use that name. Commonly used English translations of self-identifying terms are usually preferred per Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English) guideline. For example: "Japanese" and not Nihon-jin.
Kiev is the most common name. Already proven. Reginmund 18:37, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
Actually no, there hasn't been any serious discussion of the Google results by anyone except Horlo and I. That is why I told anyone that has an opinion on the google test to take it themselves. So, I need not forget any imaginary discussion about the Google test. Reginmund 17:33, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
Since we are talking about the English language you have to use English-language websites. When I went to the pages you referenced above and limited the search to English-language webpages, the result was 1,970,000 [9] for Kiev and 2,040,000 for Kyiv [10]. Apparently the algorithm is is slightly different on different googles, because when I go to google (rather than your British google.co.uk) the number of Kyiv sites is smaller, 1,890,000 [11]. Either way, according to google Kiev and Kyiv are about equally represented on the web. The discrepancy grows when one looks at books - in that case it's 14,400 for Kiev [12] versus only 856 for Kyiv [13]. Books published in the last 5 years show Kiev leading Kyiv 1452 to 544. So everything depends on the different criteria.Faustian 17:08, 10 August 2007 (UTC) I'm sorry I don't see how your numbers match up. As they say on math tests : Show your work. Regards Eduvalko 12:53, 10 August 2007 (UTC) 72% more English language websites use "Kiev"[14][15] Reginmund 18:51, 10 August 2007 (UTC) The links you provided actually show more hits for Kyiv than for Kiev - 2,040,000 vs. 1,970,000. As I wrote earlier: "Apparently the algorithm is is slightly different on different googles, because when I go to google (rather than your British google.co.uk) the number of Kyiv sites is smaller, 1,890,000 [16]. Either way, according to google Kiev and Kyiv are about equally represented on the web. The discrepancy grows when one looks at books - in that case it's 14,400 for Kiev [17] versus only 856 for Kyiv [18]. Books published in the last 5 years show Kiev leading Kyiv 1452 to 544. So everything depends on the different criteria."Faustian 18:59, 10 August 2007 (UTC) No it isn't. Kiev is the first link anbd Kyiv is the second. Kiev is obviously 72% larger. Find me a Google test that shows Kyiv to be larger than Kyiv. Reginmund 20:46, 10 August 2007 (UTC) This time, Kiev showed a little over 2 million and Kyiv about 1,900,000. How is 2 million "72% larger" than 1,900,000? It seems the numbers fluctuate a bit but that generally they are about the same.Faustian 21:43, 10 August 2007 (UTC) Yes, they seem to fluctuate but Kiev is always higher. Reginmund 21:51, 10 August 2007 (UTC) When I checked this morning Kyiv had been higher by a little. Despite fluctuations they are always about the same, a far cry from your claims of Kiev being "72% higher".Faustian 22:02, 10 August 2007 (UTC) Actually it was a day ago. But doesn't it strike you that Kiev is always the most popular. I mean, it never fluctuates between Kiev being more popular then Kyiv being more popular. It is always Kiev is a little bit more popular and then Kiev is much more popular. Doesn't that tell you that Kiev is more "popular"? Reginmund 22:09, 10 August 2007 (UTC) As I said, just this morning Kyiv was slightly more popular. I find it hard to believe that it would fluctuate from a consistant 3% difference to a huge 72% difference. As for popularity - I don't think I ever claimed that Kyiv was more popular (I don't think it is among the general public, although I am not a populist who think the mob should determine things), just that the differences are not as great as you have stated. Personally I think Kiev is better and I use it, although given the decisions of most governments and especially most geographers (i.e., the National Geographic Society) I feel that Kyiv might be more appropriate. Faustian 22:18, 10 August 2007 (UTC) It was %72 when I checked yesterday. Now Kiev is 77% more popular 1,900,000 vs. 2,490,000. Yes, the differences are as great as I have stated. Reginmund 01:19, 11 August 2007 (UTC) Sorry, but you need to brush up on mathematics. 1,900,000 is about 77% of 2,490,000. That is not the same as 2,490,000 being 77% more popular than 1,900,000. Rather, it is about 23% more popular. Remember, for Kiev to be 100% more popular it would be double the Kyiv's figure, 3,800,000. So being 77% more popular would mean approximately 3,200,000 or so. BTW, right now the figures are about even again (1,900,000 Kyiv vs. 2,020,000 Kiev). I've checked a few times today and it seems the comparison is mostly a tiny Kiev advantage, with rare tiny Kyiv advantage and rare moderate Kiev advantage. At most it has been a ratio of 1.25:1, very far from figures like nine to one or even two to one. Well, I learned something in this conversation - that the number of google hits vary hour by hour.Faustian 02:54, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
Advanced Google Search: Kyiv vs Kiev= Reginmund, do you accuse me likewise of doctoring my screenshots? Horlo's appear unedited to me. You never responded with any of your own, or disputed Horlo's shots during the considerable period of time in which we stalled debate on this issue just to give those against the move time to come up with countering evidence of your own.
I have always assumed good faith, and believed that you were getting the Advanced Google Search results you were claiming. Horlo's results are different to my results. Your results are very different to my results. I thus assumed that the test results must fluctuate, instead of questioning the credibility of your evidence.
What is important is that not only were the _percentage_ differences between Horlo's results and my results different, but that the _absolute_ differences were significantly so. The total number of results for the tests Horlo undertook were greater, thus my tests weren't as accurate: websites might have been inaccessible at the times of day I tested; my population size was incorrectly small. Would you like to inform us of the absolute number of hits you recieve for both Kyiv and Kiev, rather than the percentage difference?
Also, the last posted summary in support of the move from Kiev to Kyiv did not mention the Advanced Google Search alone as proof that Kyiv is the more common usage. In fact, it may be too mild as it says the result is hung, were it might really be additional proof that Kyiv is more common. And what of the other arguments presented for the move? 60.242.0.245 07:14, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
Did you actually read my post? I said that other users should make the search independently without regarding Horlo's shots as legitimate simply because his crusading the talk page may show evidence of an ulterior motive and tampering with evidence of which spelling is more popular. So, it would be in turn ironic if I posted my own shots, yet I encourage other users to do the search on their own. I would really reccommend you read my filibuster before actually interpereting them before you make claims irrelevant to the point. Reginmund 07:20, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
I don't remember all of Horlo's argument, all of my arguments, all of Eduvalko's arguments or other people's arguments being disproven. Perhaps all of your arguments haven't really been disproven either. This is again getting messy; I don't know much about editing, so could Reginmund or somebody else perhaps start a new section please, where we can yet again restate every item of evidence for either side? I was under the impression that we had covered all that you were arguing, Reginmund, and I didn't think anything had been missed or left unchallenged. This would not be fair if I was ignoring your evidence at the same time as urging others not to do the same, and I apologise if I have done so. Perhaps opposing and supporting evidence, and the discussion surrounding each point of evidence, is lost in the quagmire above. Should we just restate the whole lot for each side again?60.242.0.245 07:26, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
Sorry, Reginmund, it appears that I'm trying to post at the same time as you; I'm out of sync with your posts.
After Horlo posted his shots, I suggested (and he agreed) that we take the Google Test as hung rather than trumpeting a win for Kyiv. As this was a while ago, and you had made several posts since, I just assumed you weren't debating this, so was suprised when you mentioned the 25% again.
If what you suggest is that we make up a table of what every editor says they see - absolute number of hits for Kyiv and for Kiev, and UTC time at which the searches were run - then it is something I suggested might be necessary before, and I would be happy to do so. Either way we will conclude something.
Sorry, that was my post60.242.0.245 07:33, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
If you skim the archives, you may see that laying down the arguments has already been tried. The fact of the matter is, both sides cannot be disproven because both side's arguments are perfectly legitimate. That made the final authority the consensus among the voters. After the vote was closed, Horlo continued to make the same arguments which led to a dilemna of going round in circles. Since both arguments are legitimate, what matters now is consensus and right now, there isn't enough to move the page to Kyiv. Reginmund 07:46, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
I checked the links that Horlo provided at 11:03 UTC (21:04 AEST), directly after I had read this page, and took a screenshot of the results:
The difference is 1.5%, in favour of Kiev. I then waited half an hour and found:
Kyiv and Kiev are pretty much tied. It is possible that in the future, such a test will consistantly have one spelling having more results associated with it than the other, by a statistically significant amount. Checking again just now, it was still almost a tie, and the evidence presented earlier on this talk page holds.
I do not understand this return to a debate on the Google test; other evidence had been debated for quite some time. This discussion now goes backwards.
[other discussion]
Thanks,60.242.0.245 12:20, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
Hello,
Are there any serious arguments against the move left?
One request - if you offer facts based on a google search, please look at the results, don't just count them. (case in point - the links offered about BBC usage of Kiev were not all about the city - the number I posted was correct). Also, please keep in mind that there are other criteria on the WP:Naming conflict page, not just google or media, keeping in mind that the BBC uses Burma, while Wikipedia uses Myanmar.
Thanks, Horlo 03:09, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
Yes,
Google shows Kiev to be 25% higher.
The media uses Kiev more significantly.
Which has been proven after you asked "Are there any more arguments against the move?".
And English doesn't have an academy. Reginmund 03:25, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
Which name is used for the airport of town in the international flight booking systems? -- Soman 21:06, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
Hello, Good point. IATA has an online book, which I don't have, but the closest I found was this:
http://www.airodyssey.net/reference/airports.html, which uses Kyiv. Thanks,
Horlo 00:55, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
KBP was and remains the code of the Boryspil airport and IEV was and remains the code of Zhuliany. HTH, -- Irpen 03:13, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
Expedia.com lists 'Kiev'. I reckon sites like that would get updated in case IATA naming would have been changed. -- Soman 15:35, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
[Step one is admitting that we have a problem]
But seriously, this discussion is getting out of hand. There are thousands of words merely about determining just what had been discussed earlier. Some comments by several parties have been arguably uncivil or un-called for, and many of our comments have been on the borderline. This has been going on for a whole month, and there is still no consensus.
WP:DR suggests disengaging for a while. Let's. I'm calling a multilateral moratorium on this page. Nothing's been decided for about 30 days, so let's just go away for three days, and no harm will be done. Maybe we'll all gain a bit of perspective.
Please, don't add any more comments on this subject until September 29, 06:00 UT. Sincere thanks. — Michael Z. 2007-09-26 05:55 Z
Hello,
I think now that everybody has had a chance to sit back and think about it for a while, it may be a good idea to re-state some arguments.
I think that the name of the article should be Kyiv for the following reasons:
1. It is a self-identifying term. It is the name that Kyiv has chosen for itself through a statement by the democratically elected government.
2. It is more common in current usage. The google test is too close to call. Just now, the numbers are 1,950,000 for Kiev, [39] and 1,740,000 for Kyiv, [40] According to other criteria, as listed on the naming conflict page, ALL major international organizations use Kyiv (UN, NATO, OSCE, Red Cross, World Bank, etc.). Media use both, but it is important to remember that Wikipedia does not necessarily follow what media uses, as for example the Wikipedia page is Myanmar, while many media organizations use Burma. Other encyclopedia are split 2:1 (Britannica and Groliers use Kiev, while Encarta uses Kyiv). ALL English-speaking governments use Kyiv.
Because of that, I think the article should be moved to Kyiv. I would be happy to hear any arguments against.
Thanks, Horlo 01:21, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
Now I would like to go over your arguments, piece by piece.
1. Wikipedia's guideline on self-identifying terms states:
Wikipedia does not take any position on whether a self-identifying entity has any right to use a name; this encyclopedia merely notes the fact that they do use that name.
This basically doesn't mean that we should change the name because the country wants us to. However we already do make note of the name. The guideline also states:
Commonly used English translations of self-identifying terms are usually preferred per Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English)
This guideline states that English does not have an academy.
2. Now I think that the Wikipedians should take the Google test for themselves. I don't know if it is a regional difference but I am receiving different results.
Kiev (39,700,000) [41]
Kyiv (5,370,000) [42]
I am finding that some other organisations use Kiev including the Red Cross [43], the UN uses Kiev more than it does Kyiv [44] [45], OCSE [46], World Bank [47], DTRA [48],
Note that Wikipedia does necessarily follow the media. The reason that Myanmar is where it is is because of the Google test. Also now that you mention it, there is a vote in progress out to change Myanmar to Burma. Where did you get that assertation? Also, not all English-speaking governemnts use Kyiv. Her Majesty's Government (UK) [49] uses Kiev.
Then There's The Guardian [50], Time magazine [51], Raddisson Hotels [52], and Britannica [53]. Reginmund 02:15, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
Hello,
Reginmund, I think that you misunderstood the quote that you cited. The quote deals with the right of the entity to use the name. For example, once upon a time, there was an East Germany and a West Germany. If one of those entities had decided to use the name "Germany", there would have been a debate, and WP would not and should not have taken sides. However, nobody here is denying Kyiv's right to call itself Kyiv.
The Use English page also states that These guidelines are under development. Please discuss and improve.. We are discussing, and hopefully improving them. These guidelines are not written in stone.
Now I also think that everybody should run the google test themselves. However, as this is the English Wikipedia, the ADVANCED google test, with filters set for English, should be used. I provided links to those very pages. I'm sure that everybody will get different results, because google fluctuates. It would be interesting to have 20 people from all around the world run the test at exactly the same second, and then compare results.
Your point about websites is very important, because it brings up the issue of what organizations are using, not what they used to use.
Red Cross: [54], OSCE: [55] World Bank: [56] NATO: [57] and the fact that the UN has used Kiev more than Kyiv simply supports my point that a simple google search is unreliable because it includes too much history and does not filter out past results well enough. The UN uses Kyiv: [58]. Now. Just like other organizations do.
Then, Reginmund, you state two facts that are completely unrelated and apparently contradictory. First, you say that Wikipedia "does" follow media. Yet media uses Burma. Immediately after that, you say that Myanmar is used, because that was because of the google test. Could you explain how those two sentences can be combined, please? As an aside, the only reason that I used Myanmar/Burma is that that is the example given in the "dealing with self-identifying entities". The government that requested the change to Myanmar was a military junta. However, the government which requested the change to Kyiv was a freely, democratically elected government.
All English-speaking governments use Kyiv. While it is true that DEFRA is a vital organization, perhaps the British Embassy may be a better indicator: [59].
It is true that Radisson Hotels are wonderful, and the room service is great, they are not really an indicator of commonality. There are many other organizations and businesses that use Kyiv, for example the IATA. Let's use the criteria provided here.
Irpen, this is a talk page. That means people are here to talk. Please feel free to contribute to this discussion.
Thanks, Horlo 04:01, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
Michael Z, thankyou for suggesting we all take a break from this. I respect you doing so, and think it was the right thing to do.
I think that things started well after that. Horlo began by restating what he saw as the case for his position thus far, and inviting those who disagreed to do the same; this was a good way to start. Reginmund responded by giving an itemised rebuttal of Horlo's summary. Again, good; I was very optimistic about what our break from discussion was resulting in...
Now, it appears that another argument is threatening to break out. Again, this seems to be the result of simple misunderstandings, and from people not seeing how others might interpret their choice of wording. Whatever anyone says - however incorrect, insulting or irritating you think or it was meant to be - it shouldn't change how you respond to things. Check that your replies match what you would have said if you were calm, and that they are worthy of you. This doesn't only apply to this particular incident and those involved in it - this happened many times before; I am guilty of posting comments before thinging over them too.
I can't believe I didn't see this before - all this time, people have been using different Google tests! So much arguing and bitterness for nothing. Let's work out what a proper test would be and agree on it, then we can all conduct it and report back with results. And then, our results actually should match up.
I hadn't even heard of a Google News search before, Jehochman; can you explain what it is please?
60.242.0.245 10:42, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | Archive 9 | Archive 10 | → | Archive 15 |
In order to allow greater readability, a separate page has been created for discussion by
anyone other than Horlo, Irpen or Reginmund. No decisions will be made on that page. Any decisions will be made only on this page.
199.125.109.35 21:33, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
The result of the proposal was It was requested that this article be renamed but there was no consensus for it to be moved. El_C 23:06, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
Should the page be moved to a new page called Kyiv?
Absolutely, the change from Kiev to Kyiv should occur on Wikipedia, as it has in many other places already. Martauwo 01:45, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
Some Wiki editors insist that a more common English name - based on history, Google searches, personal intrangisence ect., for the geographic entity located at 50°27′00″N 30°31′24″E is Kiev; Therefore they argue that is the best title for the article about the city. However reading further into the article we see that just as prevalent is the new spelling used.
Like it or not, the Ukrainian government's decree of Ukrainian as the official language and policy of using the Kyiv spelling has significantly changed how the the city's name is commonly spelled in English.
Institutions (ie. city council, universities, metro) with the city's name in their proper title will use Ukrainian spelling Київ in their proper name. A faithful translation into English text (such as a Wikipedia reference) should translate using the Kyiv spelling ie Kyiv Metro, Kyiv City council. Moreover, some of these institutions have produced their own English language text where they have explicitely spelt their name using Kyiv.ie Kyiv-Mohyla Institute, Kyiv Polytechnical Insitute, Kyiv University etc. further confirming how the city name should be spelt in their proper name.
It does make more sense to change the article's to Kyiv name to reflect the usage in proper names cited in the body of the article. Eduvalko 03:45, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
* No vote:
Horlo (
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Hello, Reginmund, please don't put words in my mouth. I support this move.
Martauwo ( talk · contribs · count) 21:38, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
75.66.91.10 ( talk · contribs · count) 23:35, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
Comment - And what is your evidence that Kyiv is more accurate? And where is my personal attack? Reginmund 00:22, 14 September 2007 (UTC) Comment - Reginmund, everybody has an opinion. If you want to discuss it, please do it at the talk page. Here, everybody is free to state whatever they want, for any reason they want. Horlo 00:19, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
Its usage reminds me of the word "nigger". In time that words usage was changed to "negro" then "Black" and later "Afro-american". We are not arguing over the content, but how people would prefer to be called. A perception. Some people even today will continue to argue that the correct English word or usage is "nigger" and will continue to use it, despite how uncomfortable it may make people or maybe for the very fact that it does make people uncomfortable. Ukraine had a colonial past. - Most of it was part of the Russian Empire and this left a large legacy, however there are individuals who find it difficult to acknowledge Ukrainian statehood or Ukrainian language or culture. Luckily there are fewer today than in 1876 when the language and most of its culture was officially banned by the Russian authorities. I guess there are still people in the world that think that the world is flat and that people with a "well developed tan" should be refered to by their "proper English title", however, I do not agree. I regret that you are offended. It was not my intention. Live long and prosper. -- Bandurist 20:33, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
Hello Faustian,I am assuming that you may be reffering to me as one of the "meat puppets". I do not have the capabilities (computer savyness)or knowledge to write content articles. However, I do know what the spelling of the capital of Ukraine is, hence my interest and contributions to this topic. thank you, Bosska 17:46, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
Hello Orange Mike, Using the article "the" before Ukraine has been dropped by all since Ukraine's Independece in 1991....so, if you didn't know that, then why would your strong opposition be viewed as credible. By the way, several of the previous contributers, based on their bio pages, who oppsed the spelling change, have a personal connection to Russia i.e. birth country & native language. What does that tell you? The move to "Kyiv" is a move forward! Bosska 17:41, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
If you disregard a persons opinion in a discussion based on their race, that is a personal attack. I suggest you revoke this ideology. Reginmund 20:46, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
RFC Response. I am here as a result of the RFC request. I have done a Nexis search and find that Kiev seems to be the predominant spelling at the moment bu Kyiv is also being used. Given that language and spellings can and do change I think we need to be prepared to change as well. Given that this is the English wiki I would keep Kiev for now and revisit this in 6 months or so. A redirect can certainly be created but given the enormity of the change I would like to see a very strong consensus before any change is made. At present, I'm not sure that consensus exists. Once the change is made I would create a redirect for the old name too. The New York Times, The Washington Post, the Associated Press, the Daily Telegraph of Australia and of London, Chinadaily.com, Daily Record of Scotland, The Guardian of London and on and on all use Kiev at the moment. A similat search on Kyiv shows some rare usage even in some of the papers listed above, but Kiev is the most common. -- JodyB yak, yak, yak 19:18, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
Hello, I would remind you of the discussion here: [8] where others also did not see the results that you did on a google test.
If you have nothing to show, please allow other people to speak, and have their own opinions. Thanks, Horlo 23:11, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
I for one do not appreciate all the sock puppetry, meat puppetry, dissembling, and disruption involved in Horlo's endless crusade. - Jehochman Talk 03:46, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
Hello,
Advanced Google Search results:
Kyiv - 1,950,000
Kiev - 2,220,000
Please note that WP guidelines clearly state to use the advanced search, and a raw search should be avoided.
It is a fact that new people are always joining Wikipedia. If you do not appreciate that, there's nothing I can do.
Who are the sockpuppets here? Would you be so kind as to support that accusation?
Thanks, Horlo 19:32, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
Yet, even your results still show Kiev to be higher for once. I've already made clear before that every random Toronto IP (at least five) that had little to no other contriibutions to any other articles and every newly registered user that made little to no other contributions to any other articles, all of which came right after the polls were closed because when Horlo realised that consensus was greater for keeping the page, he needed to make some sockpuppets to push his agenda. Reginmund 22:46, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
Hello,
I have never said that the google test is always in favour of Kyiv. I have said that the difference is not great enough to make a decision based on that. You are the one who claims it is always 25% higher for Kiev.
I repeat my question - who are the sockpuppets here?
Thanks, 67.71.177.230 22:58, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
You are not a judge to say that a %25 difference is disregardable and I am saying this taking the test independently. I also never said that you stated that Kyiv was always higher. I have already made clear the sockpuppets. Until you actually make enough to get the page moved, that is when I'll identify them but thanks to bureaucratic elections such as the one that kept Kiev where it belongs, you are not an administrator, so I don't have to go on a wild goose-chase for you. Reginmund 23:06, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
Hello,
The book is outdated because it does not reflect what is the common name. It reflects what was the common name almost one hundred years ago.
Thanks, 67.71.177.230 22:58, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
Jehochman, a very extensive list of evidence has been presented on this talk page, with contributions from many editors. Please read through all evidence presented before making an informed decision. Cyclically restating evidence that has since been successfully rebutted (and many times too), without any challenge of the rebuttal, does not help.
Nor do accusations of sock puppetry; unless there are black Concorde flights, how is Horlo flying to Australia, making comments with my IP address, and then flying back to Canada to make a comment with Toronto IP addresses? Why is Horlo constantly being singled out for attack; because out of the "support" group he appears to have the most time for this, and since he has provided so much evidence in support of a move to Kyiv, which some pro-Kiev editors are appearing to ignore? If you are against the move, read the last summary posted by Horlo and provide valid evidence against each point raised (make sure it isn't an old argument as well) - don't just cry sock puppet in the stead of evidence or a credible argument.
If you are for the move, please read the summary in support too, and also read through the arguments raised by those opposed to the move, so that you also make an informed comment. Of course I appreciate your support, but it is important that this be informed support based on evidence. Whatever your position, it would be of benifit to you if you can make and defend comments with knowledge of the evidence accumulated on the talk page. Those opposing, please consider making a concise summary of the evidence in favour of your position to date, so we know where we disagree.
I strongly support the move in light of all of the evidence presented thus far. Should I make this comment elsewhere? I have never been involved in such a disagreement before.
Thanks, 60.242.0.245 06:52, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
You seem to be making up most of these points as you go along. Especially because nobody ever claimed that you were Horlo's sockpuppet, that no points against the move have been disproven, that Horlo continues to go in circles with his arguments despite being disproven on numerous occasions, that the accusations of sockpuppetry are an excuse to digress from the point. It appears that you have neither regarded any of the arguments opposing the move with the slightest bit of seriousness, otherwise you would actually get your facts right. I'm quite surprised that these editors (and their sockpuppets) are still trying to get the page moved after all of the resistance. The fact that they have not accepted consensus goes to show that their intentions are not to improve this encyclopaedia, but to push their nationalist agendas. Reginmund 07:16, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
Advanced Google Search: Kyiv vs Kiev= Reginmund, do you accuse me likewise of doctoring my screenshots? Horlo's appear unedited to me. You never responded with any of your own, or disputed Horlo's shots during the considerable period of time in which we stalled debate on this issue just to give those against the move time to come up with countering evidence of your own.
I have always assumed good faith, and believed that you were getting the Advanced Google Search results you were claiming. Horlo's results are different to my results. Your results are very different to my results. I thus assumed that the test results must fluctuate, instead of questioning the credibility of your evidence.
What is important is that not only were the _percentage_ differences between Horlo's results and my results different, but that the _absolute_ differences were significantly so. The total number of results for the tests Horlo undertook were greater, thus my tests weren't as accurate: websites might have been inaccessible at the times of day I tested; my population size was incorrectly small. Would you like to inform us of the absolute number of hits you recieve for both Kyiv and Kiev, rather than the percentage difference?
Also, the last posted summary in support of the move from Kiev to Kyiv did not mention the Advanced Google Search alone as proof that Kyiv is the more common usage. In fact, it may be too mild as it says the result is hung, were it might really be additional proof that Kyiv is more common. And what of the other arguments presented for the move? 60.242.0.245 07:14, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
Did you actually read my post? I said that other users should make the search independently without regarding Horlo's shots as legitimate simply because his crusading the talk page may show evidence of an ulterior motive and tampering with evidence of which spelling is more popular. So, it would be in turn ironic if I posted my own shots, yet I encourage other users to do the search on their own. I would really reccommend you read my filibuster before actually interpereting them before you make claims irrelevant to the point. Reginmund 07:20, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
I don't remember all of Horlo's argument, all of my arguments, all of Eduvalko's arguments or other people's arguments being disproven. Perhaps all of your arguments haven't really been disproven either. This is again getting messy; I don't know much about editing, so could Reginmund or somebody else perhaps start a new section please, where we can yet again restate every item of evidence for either side? I was under the impression that we had covered all that you were arguing, Reginmund, and I didn't think anything had been missed or left unchallenged. This would not be fair if I was ignoring your evidence at the same time as urging others not to do the same, and I apologise if I have done so. Perhaps opposing and supporting evidence, and the discussion surrounding each point of evidence, is lost in the quagmire above. Should we just restate the whole lot for each side again? 60.242.0.245 07:26, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
Sorry, Reginmund, it appears that I'm trying to post at the same time as you; I'm out of sync with your posts.
After Horlo posted his shots, I suggested (and he agreed) that we take the Google Test as hung rather than trumpeting a win for Kyiv. As this was a while ago, and you had made several posts since, I just assumed you weren't debating this, so was suprised when you mentioned the 25% again.
If what you suggest is that we make up a table of what every editor says they see - absolute number of hits for Kyiv and for Kiev, and UTC time at which the searches were run - then it is something I suggested might be necessary before, and I would be happy to do so. Either way we will conclude something.
Sorry, that was my post 60.242.0.245 07:33, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
If you skim the archives, you may see that laying down the arguments has already been tried. The fact of the matter is, both sides cannot be disproven because both side's arguments are perfectly legitimate. That made the final authority the consensus among the voters. After the vote was closed, Horlo continued to make the same arguments which led to a dilemna of going round in circles. Since both arguments are legitimate, what matters now is consensus and right now, there isn't enough to move the page to Kyiv. Reginmund 07:46, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
Thankyou, Reginmund. I came across this article well after the poll, wondered at the spelling, and found this lengthy talkpage. I have already read through the entirety, though reading the whole lot until my first post as one big discussion from the past (and ignoring timestamps) might have made me miss the significance of it.
JodyB suggested that we wait for six months. It appears that there will soon be parliamentary elections in Ukraine. As this could potentially lead to increased English language reporting, commentary, discussion and the likes which involve the name of Ukraine's capital (I have no proof that it will), perhaps we should wait until after the election period and see how commonly each spelling is used afterwards? We could see a significantly increased use of Kyiv, or a significant resurgance of Kiev; either could help clarify matters here.
Also, do you think that http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiev#City_name_evolution should be updated in light of this lengthy debate?
Thanks, 60.242.0.245 08:31, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
If there is anything else in that section that needs updating besides the parliamentary actions, that may be necessary but we can't speculate in the article that the use of Kyiv may increase rapidly until it actually does and if it actually does. Reginmund 18:26, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
Clearly, consensus to move the article to Kyiv does not appear likely to be crystallizing in the foreseeable future (which is, for our purposes, many months). Several dictionaries I consulted all depict Kiev as the primary name and Kyiv as the Ukrainian one. I note that Britannica and Encarta are split on the issue (with the former favouring Kiev and the latter Kyiv). A google scholar result give Kiev ten times more results than Kyiv. It goes on, but it does appear that Kiev is the common English name, and it is probably not productive going over the matter seemingly indefinitely, and increasingly circularly. Let's wait and see in, say, six months to a year (perhaps at that time kmv.gov.ua/en/index.asp will be back online), if there's been any changes that increase the prevalence of Kyiv — Wikipedia cannot become part of the process, however. Thx. El_C 23:24, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
(The subject line is a quote from El C's in response to Horlo's question why not give the RfC the time as announced.)
I guess I'm was wrong in hoping for more thoughtful guidance out of this impasse. What I saw 199.125.109.19 trying to do was to let us see the whole Wiki editor landscape on the naming issue. This is what is this naming issue needs, a full venting of opinions, a poll of all the editors who have made contributions in this subject area, or as many that can be asked to provide an contribution. Comments and endless counterrebuttals should only be listed further down the page or on user talk pages. It's easier to compromise and negotiate if one can see/read opinions from a large number of editors. Let them/us knock themselves/ourselves out.
Arbitrarily shutting down the RfC because the discussion has become rowdy (see "Gordian knot" @ User talk:El C) only frustrates particants and really wont make the issue go away. El C would have helped if he (forgive me if he is not really a he) limited his observations to what is the landscape amongst editors and worked on negotiating through the impasse. Instead describing his own Google searches and opinion has the affect of reducing his mediation to one more "oppose" contribution. I expect that Wiki editors behaving like other normal adults will know when they are summarily and needlessly shut down/out and it is expected and normal that they will not accept this. So much for closure. 74.121.238.102 03:05, 16 September 2007 (UTC)As suspected. I took too long formulating my response and was logged out but the above is really my comment. Eduvalko 03:08, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
Perhaps I wasn't clear, and if so I again apologise. I suggested that this debate be kept open, not removed or ignored, until after the parliamentary elections are held so that we can check the usage of Kyiv vs Kiev after this period.
The only part of the Wikipedia article on the capital of Ukraine that I suggested changing was the section on the evolution of the name. At the very least, this debate has demonstrated that _this section_ of the article is in need of an update in light of evidence presented.
Why close things now? And even if clear consensus won't be reached by the end of the week, why should this discussion be abandoned? Despite its torturous (and at times personal) nature, I am of the opinion that it is (albeit slowly) going somewhere. The title of this article is important. And there is a section on the article on the evolution on the name because it is significant.
Not long from now, there might be an intensification in the printed/typed/written use of the name of Ukraine's capital in English, due to the upcoming elections. Shall we check which spelling is used by whom, how frequently and how commonly after the election period?
60.242.0.245 03:32, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
As a newcomer to this discussion I would like to make two quick points: (i) it seems to me that there is no clear consensus to end this conversation. (ii) As a historian of modern Europe I frequently have to deal with this type of question and it seems to me that over time the name of a city becomes that which the country decides, ie Mumbai, St Petersburg, etc. Why should this case be any different?
Ab2004 18:11, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
Because the English language doesn't have an academy. All of the aforementioned toponyms have been adopted to be the more common name in English. No foreign government should have to tell us Anglophones how to use our language. Reginmund 22:01, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
This is a talk page. We can discuss the naming of Kiev until the cows come home. However, we don't want activity like recruiting newcomers with a specific POV, or registering multiple accounts, or using IP accounts, to be used as tactics for creating "consensus". That sort of nonsense is what I'm concerned about, Horlo, in response to this message you left on my talk page.
As to the substance, if Ukraine's official English spelling of the city is "Kyiv", that's what we should use. Google counts should be represented accurately, but I don't care if 7X as many web pages have "Kiev". Many web pages are historical, not current, so that measure is irrelevant. In general, people, groups, and places with governments should be able to choose whatever name they like, as long as use that name consistently, and in good faith, Wikipedia should follow their precident. If the official governments of Ukraine and Kyiv call the city "Kyiv", so should we. It's easy enough to redirect Kiev in case people get confused. - Jehochman Talk 20:23, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
Maybe because Horlo was a filthy liar unless you didn't read the excerps from two of his posts which I compared in which he blatantly accuses me of saying that every person that didn't agree with me was his sockpuppet, and then in a second post, says that he never made such a remark. I think that the same applies to you. You seem to be so entangled in ridiculing me that you actually miss the point of what I was saying. Reginmund 04:45, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
Hello,
Jehochman, thank you for your comment. That has been one of my arguments all along. Unfortunately, you will see that along the way, I became a sock puppet master, meat puppet master, and liar. The only thing I will add to that is that this article is about the name of a capital city. I think it is natural that many people take part in this discussion. There is actually a history of editors being blocked and taken to arbitration for trying to change the names of Ukrainian historical figures from Russian to Ukrainian (I am not talking about things like the Kiev Offensive, but rather people like Ivan Bohun, who have no realistic Common Name in English).
Now, even some people who disagree with me in this discussion have realized that I have not created any new accounts since the end of July, and the "sock puppet master" tag has been removed from my talk page.
It is exactly people like you, who come into this discussion with an open mind and good faith, that I was hoping to invite into this discussion with the Request for Comment.
Thanks, Horlo 02:07, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
Hello,
Actually, I showed MZajac how each of the points that he listed were, in fact, incorrect. Or, to use another outdated term, hooey.
Also, what of all of the other examples that Bandurist mentioned? Those may be more appropriate here: Bombay -> Mumbai, Peking -> Beijing, Burma -> Myanmar?
Thanks, Horlo 04:33, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
Hello, Actually, there are clear guidelines which were established on a page called, interestingly enough, WP:naming conflict. The specific locations are here: [10] and here: [11].
Also, as much as some want to deny it, WP guidelines state that For geographic names in Ukraine, the Ukrainian National system is used. For historic reasons, many names are also presented in Russian, Polish, etc. That is clearly stated here: [12]
Irpen, which points do you think that I did not clarify? Please let me know, or stop using words like "wishful thinking".
Thanks, Horlo 05:25, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
"Hello, Johnathan, how are you today?"
"Well, thank you. By the way, my name is 'Jonathan', not 'Johnathan'."
"That's not the way we do things. Most people spell your name 'Johnathan', so that's what we use."
"But that's wrong. It's my name, and I'm sure how to spell it."
"Yes, but per our guidelines, we use the most common spelling. We see that 66% of the time, people spell your name with that extra 'h' and we wouldn't want to confuse them."
- Jehochman Talk 12:04, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
People in Kiev call their city as either Киев or Київ. And the preferred name in the non-English language is nowhere in the naming conventions. People in Moscow call their city Москва. So what? -- Irpen 17:31, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
I'm not sure whether Irpen deliberately didn't want to answer the question which pointedly asks what English spelling the locals use to name themselves in the Angloworld. All city (road) signage is "Kyiv". Some/most/all universities use "Kyiv" in their English literature if their title carries the city name, FC Dynamo Kyiv and so on. Eduvalko 18:40, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
Hello,
Irpen, why do you think that the media is the only factor in determining what is important?
Thanks, Horlo 02:02, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
Konigsburg to Kaliningrad Danzig to Gdansk (Danzig looks more English to me) Breslau to Wroclaw In fact almost all the towns in the German lands given to Poland after WWII had name changes. You can’t tell me that they are easier to pronounce in their Polish spellings? But by not using the contemporary Polish spellings you are offending the Poles. Regarding Mumbai aparently this is the pronounciation of Bombay in one of the Indian languages.
Here is but a short list:
Alma-Ata to Almaty, Gomel to Homel or Homiel, Grodno to Hrodna , Mogilev to Mahilyow, Kishinev to Chisinau.
In particular I turn Mr Reginmund's attention to Kishinev - Chisinau. (As an aside - My grandmother, a native of Murom (ie ethnically Russian) lived there and in fact was buried there, and being the typical Great Russian chauvinist she was brought up to be saw nothing wrong in never learning the language of the local population.) Kishinev is easy on the eye and easy to pronounce. Chisinau (please look) with all its diacritical marks looks ugly - yet Chisinau is the name used in Wiki.
You and your puppets don't count. self-professed teacher. everyone that disagrees with me is your sockpuppet which is a blatant filthy lie, the influx of newly registered users and anonymous IPs from Toronto that came directly after the polls closed are probably Horlo's sock puppets you blatantly lie to push your crusading POV. With every other tactic Horlo has used to push his POV, I wouldn't be surprised if he took those photographs to Photoshop. the results are decisively different than Horlo's bowdlerised "proof". I have already made clear the sockpuppets. Especially because nobody ever claimed that you were Horlo's sockpuppet,
Uncivil - I truely think that you don’t really understand the term.
We've already been over this anyway. We're would just be repeating arguments. What was used a century ago is still used today. it still has a substantial effect today.
Ahh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Painful
Bandurist 20:32, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
We've already been over this anyway. We're would just be repeating arguments. What was used a century ago is still used today. it still has a substantial effect today.
Hello,
Actually, Russian does not have an "h" sound. That's why they say "Khokkey" when saying hockey.
However, that's not really the discussion here. The topic is the name of the capital of Ukraine.
There seem to be two trains of thought here - the first accepts that the language changes, and that people won't really go falling off chairs and go into conniptions when the name of a city far away starts being spelled differently, especially when that is what the freely elected government of the country asks. (No, nobody tells us Anglos how to use our language. I am telling you how to use our language.)
The second rests on the question - "what is more common". There was a discussion roughly twenty hours ago on the same topic, and the question was posed "how is commonality determined?". An answer was "there is no one way", however, I pointed out the WP:naming conflict page, and the items: dealing with self-identifying terms, and using external sources.
Again, please tell me which of the points listed there point to the use of Kiev.
I do have one question about the validity of a book published about what was happening over 100 years ago, however: did a book like that also affect the naming of the pages about Siam?
Thanks, Horlo 00:00, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
Russian has a sound very similar to the "H" ( Kha) which can easily be substituted for the "G" sound ( Ghe).
Some cases are less clear-cut. There is a trend in part of the modern news media and maps to use native names of places and people, even if there is a long-accepted English name. For example, US newspapers generally refer to the Olympics in Torino even though most English texts still call the city Turin. However, newspapers in other parts of the English speaking world still use Turin. One should use judgment in such cases as to what would be the least surprising to a user finding the article. Whichever is chosen, one should place a redirect at the other title and mention both forms in the lead. At the same time, when there is no long-established history of usage of the term, more consideration should be given to the correctness of translation, rather than frequency of usage (in a typical example of testing the usage by counting Google hits, if one version gets 92 hits, while another one gets 194 hits, it can hardly be decisive).
Hello,
Actually, there are many more criteria listed on the page. I'm not sure how you could miss them. I will, however, take the liberty of adding them here, to make it easier for you:
First, the google test: however, an Advanced google test, with filters set for English, and look at the results, don't just count them. Please note that in the quote above, a two-time (200%) difference is not considered decisive;
Second, major organizations. Please do not try to google what an organization uses, please go to the organizations' sites and look how they present themselves in English when discussing Ukraine. If this is difficult for you, please tell me and I can paste direct links for you;
Third, other encyclopedia. Encyclopedia Brittanica and Colliers use Kiev, while Encarta uses Kyiv.
Fourth, media organizations. This is split. Again, please don't google what the organization uses, go to their sites and use their internal search engines. Again, look at the results, don't just count them;
Fifth, government sources. Please see what the governments of EVERY English speaking country use when describing the name of the capital of Ukraine.
Sixth, scientific literature. I don't think that applies here, because it suggests magazines/organizations that deal with pure and applied sciences.
This goes in concert with the "dealing with self-identifying terms" entry. Reginmund, please don't say that Kyiv is more like Mt. Everest than it is like Gdansk again.
This goes in concert with However, it is not set in stone and should be treated with common sense and the occasional exception (by the way, that is from the top of the [WP:naming conflict] page, not original research).
Thanks, Horlo 01:59, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
Reginmund 02:09, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
Hello,
Which words did I interpret incorrectly? You compared Kyiv to Mt. Everest here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Kiev/naming/archive_002#Naming_discussion_results
Your exact quote was : 5. You make the point that the city is the institution in self-identification. Here is something that you may have missed:
A distinction should be drawn between a self-identifying entity and an inanimate entity. An inanimate geographical feature such as a sea or mountain does not have its own name for itself (obviously). Thus the English name Mount Everest is just as arbitrary as the local name, Qomolangma. The use of "Mount Everest" as the definitive term in Wikipedia is simply a matter of convenience, as the mountain is far more widely known by the English name than by its native Tibetan one.
Now substitute "Mount Everest" with "Kiev" and "Qomolangma" with "Kyiv".
(Please note that this quote is not the first thing in that category, and you have to scroll down a bit.)
All of these alternatives are substitute to the common name conflict and by that, the common name should be taken seriously first. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but that sounds like you think that Kiev is more common.
If you can live with that interpretation, we can continue. Please let me know if I am twisting your words.
Now, I think that Kyiv is more common. Therefore, we have a naming conflict. Therefore, we need to look at all of the other measuring sticks. Hence, the suggestions on the naming conflict resolution page.
Again, did you notice that in the quote you provided, a 200% difference "can hardly be decisive"?
By the way, do you have any comment about: However, it is not set in stone and should be treated with common sense and the occasional exception?
Thanks, Horlo 02:28, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
However, it is not set in stone and should be treated with common sense and the occasional exception
Hello,
Reginmund, please stop cherry picking. In that section, I said that Kyiv is a self-identifying term, and that should be taken into consideration when choosing the name. That is clearly outlined here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:Naming_conflict#Types_of_entities. I was quoting the second paragraph, which deals with city, country, or people. You thought that the first paragraph, which deals with mountains and rivers, was more appropriate. If you don't remember that discussion, please go back and re-read it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Kiev/naming/archive_002#Naming_discussion_results
About the quote that you provided, here it is again: At the same time, when there is no long-established history of usage of the term, more consideration should be given to the correctness of translation, rather than frequency of usage (in a typical example of testing the usage by counting Google hits, if one version gets 92 hits, while another one gets 194 hits, it can hardly be decisive). Where does it mention what is "correct"? Wikipedia does not judge what is "correct".
What does this sentence: "Now, Kiev is incorrect, so the Google test is actually decisive in this case." mean? I would hate to misinterpret it.
However, it is not set in stone and should be treated with common sense and the occasional exception. Here is a good reason: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Kiev/naming#Jehochman.27s_point_of_view
Thanks, Horlo 03:30, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
I didn't cherry-pick it. I am telling you what I meant by that comparison and by you saying that I meant that Kiev is a mountain, that is cherry picking. I already toold you my point and I outlined it there to.
Read right before that sentence. it mentions that if the name is incorrect, it can hardly be considered superior on the Google test.
"Now, Kiev is incorrect, so the Google test is actually decisive in this case."
-Now this is just a typo, a double negative I actually meant correct, hence the argument is that since Google tests shouldn't be taken seriously for an incorrect name, that is irrelevant with Kiev since it is not incorrect. Reginmund 03:48, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
Hello,
Actually, I said that it was a city, you said "Now substitute "Mount Everest" with "Kiev" and "Qomolangma" with "Kyiv". What exactly is your point in that sentence? Perhaps I am misenterpreting that you want to compare the city to the mountain, when you said that. Perhaps, on the other hand, you missed the entire point of that entire section, which says that cities are inherently different from mountains, and even though the mountain's preferred name for itself can be ignored, the city's preferred name for itself should be considered when making a decision.
Here is the rest of the quote you provided: Some cases are less clear-cut. There is a trend in part of the modern news media and maps to use native names of places and people, even if there is a long-accepted English name. For example, US newspapers generally refer to the Olympics in Torino even though most English texts still call the city Turin. However, newspapers in other parts of the English speaking world still use Turin. One should use judgment in such cases as to what would be the least surprising to a user finding the article. Whichever is chosen, one should place a redirect at the other title and mention both forms in the lead. Please show me where it talks about "incorrect" names.
It says "one should use judgment in such cases as to what would be the least surprising". It mentions nothing of correct or incorrect. It goes on to give a typical example of testing the usage by google hits. It says nothing of google being the only, or even the best criterion.
Do you have anything else about: However, it is not set in stone and should be treated with common sense and the occasional exception?
Thanks, Horlo 04:01, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
My point is that no matter what it is, a city, a mountain, a flying saucer, or a rogue cryptid, we should classify these things as our language does, not as a foreign language prescribes for us. Perhaps I should have been more specific and used this policy.
At the same time, when there is no long-established history of usage of the term, more consideration should be given to the correctness of translation, rather than frequency of usage
...which immediately goes to how the Google test is irrelevant in the case of the name being incorrect. In this case, "Kiev" is not incorrect so the Google test is legitimate.
Now I don't know what you want be to say about this:
However, it is not set in stone and should be treated with common sense and the occasional exception
...but do you have any comments about this exception? Because you brought it up. Reginmund 04:27, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
Hello,
Apparently you did miss the entire point of the section. It says that the wishes of everybody should be considered. Nobody's prescribing anything to you. Nobody's forcing you to say anything. However, you apparently also missed the point here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Kiev/naming#Silly_story. Nobody can force anybody to say anything. But what does it say about you that your answer to that person is "You want to be called Johnathan, but I don't care, I'll call you what I want to call you?" Believe it or not, this entire section http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:Naming_conflict#Types_of_entities says that cities can also choose their own names.
Thank you for pointing out that there are correct, and by association, incorrect translations. Perhaps other users would also like to hear about that. In that case, how do you determine the "correct" translation? Perhaps at what, say, governments use, seeing as they are the ones in charge of printing school textbooks?
The reason that I brought up this quote However, it is not set in stone and should be treated with common sense and the occasional exception is that sometimes some editors just cannot accept that a name change has happened, and just keep saying "we've always done it this way".
Thanks, Horlo 05:11, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
What do you mean when you say that "nobody's forcing you to say anything"?
I have already gone over the "silly story". If Russians want to call Harry Potter "Garry Potter", then I can't stop them and I have no reason to stop them. However, Russians shouldn't be complaining if I want to call Peter the Great Peter and not Pyotr. It is not their language. They don't dictate how it should be used. The same applies to Kiev. Ukranians don't dictate to Anglophones how to use our language and we don't dictate to Russians how to use theirs, regardless if the subject is foreign.
English does not have an academy. The British or U.S. governemnt does not decide how the language should be used. Also not that companies completely unassociated with the government print textbooks. Not the governemnt.
To your argument that "some editors cannot accept the name change". That is merely a point of view. Those editors think that there is no academy that changes the name and that is a perfectly legitimate argument in this case. Reginmund 05:24, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
Could we all try to use indenting because that makes it easier to follow who's responding to whom.
Hello,
I'm sorry about the lack of indentation.
Reginmund, I said that "nobody is prescribing anything to you". When I say nobody is forcing you to say anything, I mean nobody is forcing you to say anything. Say anything you want.
Now you seem to be mixing up "silly story" and Harry Potter. Silly story says that when somebody directly asks you to call them something, you should. When a piece of literature is translated into a foreign language, it will be changed to reflect that language, so the translators and publishers can make a lot of money. There is no connection between those two items. If you meet somebody who says please call me "Jorge" and you say "Mm, no, I will call you George", you're being rude. Not much good faith happening there.
You're right, English does not have an academy. However, there are schools in the Anglosphere. Schools use books, which are made for the government. Pearson, the company that your link led to, is indeed a very large printing company, as are Thopmson and Longman, but they do not write textbooks. People from the government tell them what they need, then the publishing companies find somebody who can write it, then they write it, then it goes to the government for approval, then it goes back to the writer for revision, then back to the government for approval, then again other people in the government look at it, then requisitions for funds are made, then the funds are advanced, then the books get published, and distributed to schools. Thank you, but you don't need to teach me how/by whom textbooks are written. The funds are directly controlled by governments, so the books are made exactly how the governments want them to be made. That is why the decisions by governments do directly influence common usage, and should be considered when determining what is popular. Every government uses Kyiv.
Finally, your arguments about there being no academy and commonality have worn thin. That's why I brought up the point of "the occasional exception" and "common sense". If the best argument that you can legitimately put forth is "there is no academy", backed up by "no foreign government can tell us in the anglosphere how to use our language" and "What was used a century ago is still used today. it still has a substantial effect today", it shows a distinct lack of good faith on your part.
Thanks, Horlo 06:35, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
Eduvalko, I fully agree. The issue at hand is where is a tipping point. This was discussed ad naseum and our WP:NCGN specifically mention checking major media. If we see major media changing their usage, than there would be time to seriously look at it. We should follow the trends best reflected by those who really matter: Britannica, Oxford, major English papers [14] and international media like BBC, CNN, Fox, AP, Reuters, AFP. So far all of them use Kiev. Literally all. So, this "discussion" is a waste of time at this point. -- Irpen 16:33, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
Horlo, I did not comment on Jehochman's post not because I have nothing to answer but because I am not in the habit of answering repeated questions I asnwered earlier. His entry has several faulty premises which were addressed before. First, the respect to the decisions of the foreign governments how something should be called in English language is not anywhere in the naming conventions of Wikipedia or style manuals of any other publisher. Second, there is absolutely no indication that the Ukrainian people prefer Kyiv. There is simply no relevant study. Most people don't care. I, a Ukrainian person, have no such preference and I know many Ukrainian people who don't either. Now, I am not entitled to bring in my personal observations into Wikipedia. But so is anyone who claim to know the Ukrainian people preference. However, even if those where true, which they are not, still there is no such mention (preference of non-English speakers, in the naming convention. Now, as for choosing which media are more representative, there is no clear-cut rule. We need some common sense. It is difficult to argue that the most widely read and listened to English language media companies that set trends in the news business are (not necessarily in that order) CNN, BBC, Fox, AP and Reuters. How exactly Lexis chose these particular papers is spelled out at the top of their page. You are free to show a respected media search engine that define such list differently. I ran an analysis of these papers through Lexis some months ago and the advantage of Kiev was overwhelming. So it is for BBC, CNN, Fox, AP and Reuters. The latter 5 you can google. If you want the results of the Lexis major papers search (you would need subscription to their premium service) I can do that and produce their latest statistics. You won't like the results, I assure you, but feel free to ask. Major media, Britannica, OED seem to agree with each other. You don't. Fine, type a dozen of more screens on this page. Since your rabid activity does not disrupt the main talk page, I have no problem with that. -- Irpen 18:48, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
Please check WP:RS for the primary and secondary sources. Government write laws but they do not regulate languages, at least not English. If the Kravchuk's government renamed the city to say, Kravchukiv, that would have been a different story. It did not. All it did is issues an instruction to the governmental offices on how the name, which did not change, should be spelled in the governmental documents. The Ukrainian government has no authority to order anything else as far as the language is concerned. English language uses both and neither is wrong. But one of the two prevails by a wide margin while the other one trails badly. Therefore, most style manuals of respectable sources stick with the name they consider more appropriate to use. When and if the usage changes, Britannica, Oxford, CNN and Wikipedia would adjust to that. -- Irpen 21:34, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
Horlo, points don't "wear thin" and the "exception" isn't an argument winner. You can't mix a person's name and a toponym in a different language. They have no relation. It is just rude and arrogant for a foreign governemnt to change the name of their city in a language that isn't even theirs. That is why we don't call Peter the Great Pyotr. As for the books, you are wrong. The governemnt does not control the printing of Pearson's books. Pearson does. They own Prentic Hall which prints educational books for schools. All the government does is approve the books. Please don't get off topic. Reginmund 21:52, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
If you're going to be sarcastic, I'm not going to waste my time with you. Reginmund 00:10, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
Kuban kazak wrote: Because Moldovan language uses a Latin alpabet, and for not-well known names it is fully acceptable to name them in their respective language (unlike Bucharest or Munich).
Kuban kazak wrote: The word Kishinev was never popular in English,
I still can't undertand why the Molodovan government can request the name of their capital Kishinev (Kishinef, Kishiniof, Kishiniov) can be changed to Chisinau with it's non English looking diacritical marks yet Kyiv cannot. What is holding the change over back. 00:41, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
Because Moldovan uses the Latin alphabet and the name was taken directly from their version. Reginmund 01:28, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
You have to ask professional editors who write style manuals why they changed Kishinev for Chisinau but did not change Kiev to Kyiv. My guess is that Kiev was a more widely used word in English simply because it is a larger and more important city. Relatively (to Kiev) obscure Lviv was also written in English books as Lwow, Lemberg and Lvov. It is still written such in historic context but not in the modern one. Kiev remains a prevailing usage both in historic and modern context and the article's title reflects the prevailing English name. We do not make judgments. We reflect the usage. -- Irpen 02:48, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
It is the Latin alphabet which is perfectly acceptabe on Wikipedia. Reginmund 06:19, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
Suppose for a moment that the USA was taken over by a another country. In an attempt to impose their native language upon Americans they "rename" all they cities to their current translation of those cities' names. In this process, New York becomes "Nueva York." Over the years the countries of the world adopt various translations of this new name. After say, 100 years or so, the USA regains its independence and announces that "Nueva York" is once again New York, but the countries of the world retain their translations of "Nueva York" as they are in common usage. Would this be proper? Should the citizens of the USA be offended by this? Just wondering what everyone thinks about this, not speaking in support or opposition to Kiev vs. Kyiv here. I have done that elsewhere. Srilm 12:13, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
OK, now I will hop back in. It shouldn't be tiresome to discuss it. That's what this section is all about. If it's tiresome, don't discuss it. My opinion -- it doesn't matter what was used 12 years ago, or 800 years ago. What matters is what name do the people (not just a person, but the people through their elected government or representatives) use. And the "people" have chosen to reinstate the name of their native language, as opposed to the name in the language of a previous ruler. I think that the English-speaking world should set an example and acknowledge that the name of this city (it's not just a change of spelling of the same name, but a change of name in different languages) has changed. I chose New York for this very reason -- it's not a native American name, it's English! New York was not the name of New York 500 years ago, but if the natives ever take back over, I'd bet they'll change the name, and I would acknowledge th at. Srilm 16:31, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
English does not have an academy. English is determined by the consensus of its users, Not by any government, especially a governemnt that doesn't even use English as their official language. They have no business dictating for us how to use their language. Do we tell Pakistan how to spell "London" or "Chicago" in Punjabi? No, and we have no need to. Reginmund 16:44, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
I see a lot of replies about the English language and no one being able to tell English-speakers how to use their language. I don't contest this. I don't see it as an issue. What I keep asking and no one contests is -- how should English-speakers respond to the fact that the elected government of Ukraine has changed the name of their capital city from Ки́ев to Київ -- two different words in two different languages? Srilm 16:58, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
To Srilm, it is an issue. That is why we have a policy on it.
Reginmund 23:28, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
Hello, to Orange Mike, a follow-up question: when you did find out that people wanted to change the name of their capital city, did it offend you? When you heard that China requested their capital be called Beijing, did you just say, whatever, it's your city?
Hello,
Just in case it was missed, here is the entire guideline: How to make a choice among controversial names
Article names
Wikipedia's technical and practical requirements mean that one particular name must be used as the definitive name of an article. If the particular name has negative connotations for a party, the decision can be controversial; some may perceive the choice as being one that promotes a POV with which they disagree.
Wikipedians should not seek to determine who is "right" or "wrong", nor to attempt to impose a particular name for POV reasons. They should instead follow the procedure below to determine common usage on an objective basis. By doing this, ideally, we can choose a name in a systematic manner without having to involve ourselves in a political dispute.
The procedure for determining article names differs somewhat between the two principal classes of names – proper nouns (e.g. George W. Bush, United Nations) or descriptive names (e.g. GNU/Linux naming controversy, 2005 Atlantic hurricane season).
Proper nouns
The three key principles are:
* The most common use of a name takes precedence; * If the common name conflicts with the official name, use the common name except for conflicting scientific names; * If neither the common name nor the official name is prevalent, use the name (or a translation thereof) that the subject uses to describe itself or themselves.
A number of objective criteria can be used to determine common or official usage:
* Is the name in common usage in English? (check Google, other reference works, websites of media, government and international organisations) * Is it the official current name of the subject? (check if the name is used in a legal context, e.g. a constitution) * Is it the name used by the subject to describe itself or themselves? (check if it is a self-identifying term)
Please note the last section, where it says that a number of objective criteria can be used to determine common usage. Also, please note that it does not say only Google, nor does it give a number/percentage which is considered decisive.
One more time: Google is, well, please look at it for yourself, with the Advanced Google Search filters for English pages. Media outside the US is split. Reference works are more difficult to judge, as Google Scholar has no filter for languages, and there is a very prolific American-Ukrainian psychologist, Ari Kiev, who has written literally thousands of works that show up there. All governments use Kyiv. All major organizations - UN [15], The World Bank [16], NATO, [17], and the OSCE [18].
Even if you consider that according to these criteria the two are tied/equal, the name should be Kyiv, according to the final point: if neither is prevalent, use the name that the subject uses for itself.
Thanks, Horlo 00:32, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
How are reference works difficult to judge? And now we're dumping on Google? They both show a significantly higher percentage for Kiev. The Google test consistently shows Kiev to be 25% higher. Plus, these obstacles are actually second choices to the common name rule. If the common name is indecisive, then that is when you turn to the organisations and gov'ts etc. Reginmund 01:23, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
* Is the name in common usage in English? (check Google, other reference works, websites of media, government and international organisations)
Please also note that is states "websites of media", and doesn't say run google searches of what the media organization uses.
Thanks, Horlo 01:44, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
and Kiev, 2,130,000 here: [20] That is an 8.25% difference, not a 25% difference, and I guarantee that if you run the test in a few hours, the results will be different.
The subject calls itself Київ, however, changing the name outside of the Latin alphabet is forbidden by Wikipedia. Reginmund 03:35, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
What is there to do here? Ukraine = independent nation, wants names in English. Kiev = English version. en.wikipedia.org = English encyclopedia. Therefore, Kiev. I'd imagine then if someone forced a rename to some other format, it would be vandalism that needed admins, but otherwise, what is the point? Case settled, or am I incorrect? • Lawrence Cohen 13:37, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
Commonly used English translations of self-identifying terms are usually preferred per Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English) guideline. For example: "Japanese" and not Nihon-jin.
Any reasonable objections with reasons why, before I or someone else enacts such a move? Say, tomorrow? That is, Move Kiev -> to Kyiv, leaving the old Kiev as a redirect to Kyiv? • Lawrence Cohen 17:51, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
Eduvalko, the fact that the UA-gov's choice affects the usage overall is a valid one and I never dispute that. What I dispute is that the mere UA-gov decision over the language over which it has no jurisdiction should be the reason why we change the name in the Wikipedia. So, all UA-gov bodies use Kyiv. This affects the overall usage statistics. UN uses Kyiv. Very well, duly noted. Britannica, Columbia, Oxford and Webster use Kiev though. Should we also take a note of the choice by the most authoritative reference books and dictionaries published in English? I think so.
Let's check the major media. They all use Kiev, at least practically all. This has much more effect on the usage then the governmental web-sites. -- Irpen 21:14, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
Not only change takes time, change does not always make it. We have to sit and watch. If we see a significant change in major media, we should revisit the issue. As for "incorrect", I am sorry, but I consider the professional book editors who compile style manuals for the respected publishers and media agencies more of an authority in the English language to accept their view that this version is correct than the view of the pseudonymous Wikipedia user who thinks otherwise. --- Irpen 21:40, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
Eduvalko, are you spelling my username that way to make a point? Anyway, if this pleases you... Why would western governments not agree to do something if it costs them nothing just to please the Ukrainian government and demonstrate their non-existing respect to the Ukraine in the issue that matters little to them? It's not like opening the European and US markets to the Ukrainian steal products, rescinding the visa requirements for the Ukrainian citizens or setting a roadmap for the acceptance to the EU. Those issue matter and would cost the Western government something to do. Changing the signs on the embassy buildings is easy, costs nothing and if one is asked to, why not? -- Irpen 01:43, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
I am afraid people are not realizing that this drive for name change is not triggered by some teenage nationalists but by a serious underlying issues. First of all you have to realize that millions of people in Ukraine now deal with Kyiv spelling in all foreign language media, including the major English language newspaper Kyiv Post. For them the Kiev spelling is a gross injustice, even though it is still current in many places. That's why it is not going away any time soon. Yes, the gov't of Ukraine has no business dictating what the English word should be, but neither did the Chinese gov't with Peking-Beijing issue. Moreover, there are a million and a half of ethnic Ukrainians in North America alone, for whom English is not a foreign language but their own and they also have been instrumental to bring the new spelling into use. Sweeping it under the rug and declaring it none of Ukrainians' business is wrong. By virtue of English being mother tongue of so many Ukrainians and of it being an international language it does matter what Ukrainians want their capital city be called. The problem is that unlike in Pekin-Beijing issue there was no powerful opposition to the name change, there were no other nation with imperialist dreams of preserving Peking as the only true name. Apart from lingustic issue it is deeply rooted into politics as well. For millions of people this has been a decided issue for almost a decade, it is just a matter of time until Wikipedia catches up. -- Hillock65 21:45, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
Bejing is the most common name in English, is it not? That sounds quite strange that the spelling is an injustice. It sounds like you are turning this into a political issue which it shouldn't be. It doesn't matter if they are Ukrainian, Russian, British, American, or Martian. Sure there may be Ukranian Americans that contribute to "Kyiv" but there are also other Anglophones who are no less important to count. Reginmund 22:21, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
Yes, you are turning it into a political issue. It should be about why governemnts don't choose foreign spellings, not why governemnts should choose foreign spellings. Reginmund 22:48, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
Can somebody who is familiar with this situation explain why Soviet nostalgia would have anything to do with this renaming controversy? - Jehochman Talk 05:21, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
Let's try this...
If I'm following this correctly then; the legally elected Ukraine government dropped the Soviet imposed name which translated to English as "Kiev" to be Kyiv (translated) instead reflecting their chosen national language of Ukrainian; all English language world governments and major international organizations (United Nations, World Bank, etc.) now honor the Ukraine government's "Kyiv" usage; "Kyiv" is also the best or literal English-language translation of the Ukrainian language version of the word. On the still-using-Kiev side of the fence we have the Western (American) media and the Russians...? Internet usage shows that the preponderance of Kiev vs. Kyiv is roughly a 50%/50% split (keeping in mind that a lof the Kiev stuff is likely the legacy of the 20th century Soviet naming which is now redundant, as the Ukraine is now an independent nation.
Not getting into a question of wikipolicy or anything like that, is this a correct assessment of the basic situation overall in regards to the name? • Lawrence Cohen 17:34, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
This all got me so curious I did a completely non-scientific test for frequency of usage for each term in English language Internet searches. Specific numbers may vary slightly by whatever Google farm you end up hitting.
Some search tests (unscientific):
General search, then: roughly 7:1 in favor of "Kiev". Not overly scientific, but we see that when we exclude anything that says "2007" in the page, text, or title it changes drastically. This is to eliminate any possible instances from the past year, assuming the pages--and that would be all news sources, reasonably--to see what pops up. Then, Kiev only has a 1.9:1 advantage. If I search to include 2007, so that presumably only a majority of 'new' pages come up:
Now we're down to a 1.725:1 advantage for Kiev. So, lets try an experiment: (these are adjusted now with -wikipedia) • Lawrence Cohen 20:38, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
So, year by year ratio:
|
|
Summary: From 1998 to 2006, the prevalance of Kiev over Kyiv has been significantly dropping. From 3.34:1 in 1999, to 1.58:1 in 2006. For some reason it appears to spike this year, but darned if I can tell why (a statistics wizard may known an answer, but I take this an anomoly). Coupled with the fact that each year the usage of Kyiv in general rises dramatically from 657k in 1998 to 2,190,000 in 2006, I think it's a pretty clear barometer that the world is honoring the Ukraine's wishes, online. Note that the 2006 numbers almost do approach the mythic 50/50 split mentioned again and again. Thoughts? •
Lawrence Cohen 20:38, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
I updated it with -wikipedia exclusions. I don't think we should limit it to just English language searches, for purposes of this. We're trying to get an idea of what the world actually considers more common. Excluding Wikipedia from searches didn't make much difference, and the trend remains steady. The word "Kyiv" is going to completely bypass Kiev in total usage in a few years at this rate, and all notable bodies of authority besides some media are apparently already using the city's true name (translated) of Kyiv. • Lawrence Cohen 20:38, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
Out of curiosity, I did a search for just English as you suggested, Michael, on a string like this, and got:
Hello,
First, could somebody please explain how the date filters work on a google search? For example, in a previous discussion, it was suggested that the CBC used Kiev 212 times in the last three months, but only 202 times in the last year (which includes the last three months). The entire last year is lower than only the last three months. I think that this casts doubt on how the filters work.
Second, I have posted screenshots of advanced google searches, here: http://www.freewebs.com/horlo/kyiv1.htm These were taken on or around September 2, 2007
There are sets. Kiev1 matches Kyiv1, Kiev2 matches Kyiv2, etc. On all the sets, Kyiv was higher than Kiev.
Thanks, Horlo 22:40, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
Above, Horlo made the claim that the google numbers I provided a few times before, concern texts in the Ukrainian language. Anyone who has had a look at them should immediately have seen that they concerned English (marked bold by Google!) pages only. Of course, google always misinterprets a few results wrong, because web masters all over the world sometimes unwittingly (because of the software they are using) mark texts as English language text, though they are not. In fact, anyone who thinks rationally, will understand that the presence in the google samples of a small number texts in the Ukrainian language, actually helps the Kyiv transliteration in the google fight, and not the Kiev one.
However, and because I have posted these two URLs often enough by now, I have refined the search, by adding the word "the" to the search string. As expected, both numbers go down, but the "Kyiv" one even more:
The proportion Kiev/Kyiv is now closer to 6/1. We have 84% transliteration to "Kiev", and 16% transliteration to "Kyiv".
Note that I filtered "wiki" out, and added the proviso that "Kiev" or "Kyiv" should be in the body of the page, and that the URL name of the page does not count. The first filter does not influence the result, but the second one does: it benefits "Kyiv" because of urls including the sequence "kiev.ua". I advise other googlers to take this into account as well when filtering their googles, since some of the marginal decrease over the years in the Kiev/Kyiv proportion reported above, may actually be due to the fast increasing number of English pages published in the kiev.ua domain.
These two numbers give a good picture of how Ukrainains themselves transliterated the Ukrainian name of their capital into English during the last year, because of the filter ".ua".
That the Ukrainians themeselves are primarily responsible for the recent rise of the Kiev/Kyiv proportion is clear from the following google number on Kyiv where I just dropped the .ua domain requirement:
That last number is for "Kyiv the" in the body of the text of English language texts (though there may be some false ones here, since Google will also find "thé" which is "tea" in a number of languages) during the last year. As you see, this number is only marginally higher than Kiev in English language pages from the Ukraine ("Kiev the" in English all over the world goes up to 2,130,000).
Note that due to traffic restrictions, www.google.com is basically out of reach in Belgium. I used the English version of www.google.be, though I also had a look at www.google.fr, where I got the same results.
This false claim about my "Ukrainian" googles (I repeat: these are English-language texts written by Ukrainians) are part of a broader pattern of systematic misinterpretation by pro-change editors of what Irpen (a Ukrainian!) and others have said here. And because most Westerners have no clue about East European subtleties, they are getting away with it. -- Pan Gerwazy 10:24, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
On the issue of internet usage in Ukraine, which is also only tangentially relevant to this discussion, the web publication Ukrainska Pravda on 13 September 2007 posted an article containing stats and trends. The estimates of regular internet users varies from 1.1 million (Government Statistics Committee- DerzhKomStat) to 1.5 - 2.5 million by the NGO Internet Association of Ukraine to 5.2 million by Miniwatts Marketing Group. The highest estimate puts regular internet usage in Ukraine at 11.5%, the lowest in Europe, but growing at the fastest rate.
http://epravda.com.ua/news_print/2007/9/13/56806.htm
Those familiar with the internet will know that the discussion about google has more to do with the way search engines operate than any indication of common usage in any language. Perhaps this is not terribly useful for moving forward with this debate.
The issue at hand is about naming and language usage. The three languages involved are Ukrainian, English and Russian. Some names and geographic places have three versions, such as Petro (Ukrainian), Peter (English) and Piotr (Russian). There are no debates whether the correct English version is Piotr the Great, or Peter the Great, or Petro the Great. Other terms have only two versions, for example the major river in Ukraine, Dnipro (Ukrainian) and Dniepr (Russian). In these cases debates arise about the English usage. For historic and political reasons, the Russian version had been adopted in the past by the English language, and this was the case with the capital city. Political changes of 1991 prompted changes in the English language versions of places in Ukraine, as well as resistance, mainly from those upset with the change of the previous status quo. These debates are now playing out on the talk pages of Wikipedia. My reading of this debate is that the arguments against moving the page to Kyiv with a redirect to Kiev are looking back to the past rather than at the present reality. The question is whether Wikipedia follows its own rules and procedures on naming and is interested in accuracy.
As an aside, there is no need to insult the intelligence of people who are not native to Eastern Europe nor assume a false universality of ‘East European subtleties.’ Some ‘Westerners’ (whoever that is meant to represent) are more informed about events in Europe than those living there. Furthermore, despite certain commonalities, there are marked differences between Poles and Russians, for example, Czechs and Slovaks, not to mention Ukrainians.
Martauwo 16:31, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
Should we use the Ukrainian name as commonly transliterated into English, or the Russian name as commonly transliterated into English? Is Ukrainian a provincial dialect of Russian, or a distinct language? - Jehochman Talk 17:28, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
Ukrainian was considered a non-language by Russian intellectuals, a dialect of Russian in the 19th century. It was initially secretly prohibited by the Valuev Circular in 1863 and then banned by the Russian government in the Ems Ukaz of 1876. There has been a struggle to have the language recognised ever since.
Excerpts from the Ukaz:
- The importation into the Russian Empire, without special permission of the Central Censorship over Printing, of all books and pamphlets in the Little Russian dialect, published abroad, is forbidden,
- The printing and publishing in the Empire of original works and translations in this dialect is forbidden with the exception of (a) historical documents and monuments; (b) works of belles-lettres but with the provision that in the documents the orthography of the originals be retained; in works of belles-lettres no deviations from the accepted Russian orthography are permitted and permission for their printing may be given only by the Central Censorship over Printing.
- All theatrical performances and lectures in the Little Russian dialect, as well as printing of text to musical notes, are forbidden. [1]
It is still enforced today in Russia proper, particularly in the Kuban. Bandurist 18:13, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
Google test 25% higher. I didn't say that I "think" that the BBC uses it more. Take your schtick to a publisher of alternative history novels because you're writing fiction. Reginmund 22:02, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
Hello,
Irpen, you have brought up two important points when determining commonality - media and reference works.
However, I would like to remind you of the other methods mentioned for determining commonality - namely, the ones on the WP:Naming conflict page. Here the are:
A number of objective criteria can be used to determine common or official usage:
government and international organisations).
Please note that reference works and websites of media are mentioned, so are Governments and International Organizations.
With respect to Google, please look at that yourself. I have posted some screenshots, but have been accused of lying and doctoring them. It fluctuates to the point where it is not a valuable yardstick.
With respect to reference works, the majority use Kiev. However, let us not forget that Encarta, uses Kyiv. The people who make Microsoft are also quite professional and knowledgeable.
I have stated my arguments about using Google Scholar, so here, I will simply show the WP policy: False positives
Search engine tests should be used with care: in testing whether a name is widely accepted English usage, we are interested in hits which are in English, represent English usage, and mean the place in question. Search engine results can fail on all of these.
With respect to media, not mostly all use Kiev. If you actually follow the suggestions and go to the CBC website, for example, you will see that Kyiv appears in 26 articles from 2007, while Kiev appears in 4 (from 2007). This flows from the guideline: Always look at search results, don't just count them. For more, see the section on false positives below. On the BBC Website, Kyiv has 3 hits for 2007, while Kiev has 6. They do NOT only use Kiev. Please don't google CBC, go to CBC and count. Do the same for the Australian BC.
With respect to governments, they ALL use Kyiv.
With respect to organizations, they ALL use Kyiv.
Please don't say that because nobody you know uses Kyiv, it isn't common. That's what they said about Nixon once, too.
Thanks, Horlo 00:37, 21 September 2007 (UTC)sorry, just a quick formatting change to make it more readable Horlo 01:07, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
Thank you. Is consensus in this case subject to overrule the proper name of a place? I will yield of course to the proper way of doing things. Can consensus change a simple fact like a legal place name? • Lawrence Cohen 05:02, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
The homepage of the BBC, http://www.bbc.co.uk/?ok, has the lead story: Suu Kyi greets Burma protesters . Funnily enough, when I tried to find Burma on Wikipedia, I was re-directed to a page called Myanmar.
Interesting.
Thanks, Horlo 19:40, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
So what does this have to do with Kiev? Reginmund 21:01, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
So then what governments do doesn't have to be what Wikipedia does. What other reason could a government change their "official" name of a foreign city. Diplomatic reasons. There's just too much political bias in that. However, the media doesn't need to base their MOS how a foreign government wants it. Reginmund 21:56, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
Kazakhstan was able to change the name of its capital in post-Soviet times from the Russian Alma-Ata to the Kazakh Almaty despite having a 50-60% Russian population in the city - and they didn't have latin characters either like Kishinev in Moldova. Maybe Borat helped with his movie (xoxoxo). I still can't understand why we can't do it with Kyiv. Recently they changed the name of the Bayqongyr (Baykonur) space launch facilities and also the city known as Shevchenko was been changed to ( Aqtau which to me looks more difficult to pronounce than Shevchenko. Bandurist 02:09, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
With regard to what Eduvalko said in the entry above about the greater proportion of editors supporting a move of the name change, and referencing Pan Gerwasy's entry from the previous section about Irpen's comments against the move and noting that he/she is Ukrainian.......I would like to submit again that several of the editors, including Irpen, are either ethnicaly Russian (regargless of being born in Ukraine), post that thier native mother tongue is Russian. That being said, I can understand their resistance ...for this has always been and still is an example of the those who were in charge not wanting to let go. Ukraine (not the Ukraine) is finally an independent country trying to overcome the ex-soviet mentality in all aspects concerning the country....and for this discussion, the language, the self identifying term - Kyiv. I submit that the editors who so strongly oppose the move ask themselves if it is really the wikipedia polocies that this so strongly believe in or is it something else? If they won't ask themselves that question, then the fair minded readers, editors and administrators of Wikipedia should. Bosska 14:52, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
Stop turning this into a political issue. Just because one is either ethnically Russian or Ukranian, doesn't mean that they would either support or oppose the move because of anti-Russian/Ukranian sentiment. However, the ones that bring up the matter of the Wikipedians' nationalities seem to have their opinions driven by their anti-Russian sentiment. That includes Horlo, Eduvalko, Bandurist and possibly others, I haven't skimmed the entire discussion yet. Now you ask if the Wikipedians have an ulterior motive iin their politics (no pun intended). Well take it from a Wikipedian whom is neither Russian or Ukranian, I implement Wikipedia's policy and nothing else. Reginmund 15:18, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
Hello,
Reginmund, stop saying that Kiev is more common without ever supporting that. All you do is claim that the google shows 25% more hits for Kiev.
First, I have never seen that, and you have never shown proof for that. I have shown proof when Kyiv was higher than Kiev, but you still call me a liar, and stated that I probably doctored the images in Photoshop. Now you expect me to take your word that Kiev is higher on good faith?
Second, google is only one part of the method of determining commonality. If you keep ignoring the other four, stop saying that you simply implement Wikipedia policy, or follow Wikipedia policy. By the way, did you notice the part on the WP:UE page that says: These guidelines are under development, and also, the part in the big square at the top that says However, it is not set in stone and should be treated with common sense and the occasional exception.
Stop trying to make yourself out to be the defender of the Wikipedia policy, when you seem to miss policies you don't agree with.
Thanks, Horlo 16:18, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
I've already told everyone to do the test themselves and see that Kiev is more common. I don't expect you to do anything but I wouldn't trust your images as you have refused to yield to consensus and use sockpupppets to prove your point. I wouldn't be surprised if you Photosop your images.
Don't think that the "common sense" alternative is the ultimate argument winner because it isn't. You say that yet you don't provide reasoning for common sense. You just say something that goes against another policy.
Ever wonder why I don't trust you? Because you lie. I have never skipped any policies whatsoever that you brought forth. You are just angry that your nationalist agenda has been proven wrong on all of these occassions. Obviously I won't trust anyone that crusades their nationalism on the talk page. Reginmund 16:26, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
Hello, Reginmund, I have run the test, and I have never found it to be 25% higher for Kiev.
You have skipped the four points about choosing between controversial names on the naming conflict resolution page after the google test.
Even Irpen has accepted that I only do not use different accounts. It happened once, and that's all.
The reasoning I provided to use common sense is that this is a self-identifying name. A great example where common sense was used is the naming for the Myanmar article.
Please don't turn this into a political issue. And stop saying that Kiev is more common when the only thing that you can support that with is a google test result.
Thanks, Horlo 16:56, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
Where self-identifying names are in use, they should be used within articles. Wikipedia does not take any position on whether a self-identifying entity has any right to use a name; this encyclopedia merely notes the fact that they do use that name. Commonly used English translations of self-identifying terms are usually preferred per Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English) guideline. For example: "Japanese" and not Nihon-jin.
Kiev is the most common name. Already proven. Reginmund 18:37, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
Actually no, there hasn't been any serious discussion of the Google results by anyone except Horlo and I. That is why I told anyone that has an opinion on the google test to take it themselves. So, I need not forget any imaginary discussion about the Google test. Reginmund 17:33, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
Since we are talking about the English language you have to use English-language websites. When I went to the pages you referenced above and limited the search to English-language webpages, the result was 1,970,000 [9] for Kiev and 2,040,000 for Kyiv [10]. Apparently the algorithm is is slightly different on different googles, because when I go to google (rather than your British google.co.uk) the number of Kyiv sites is smaller, 1,890,000 [11]. Either way, according to google Kiev and Kyiv are about equally represented on the web. The discrepancy grows when one looks at books - in that case it's 14,400 for Kiev [12] versus only 856 for Kyiv [13]. Books published in the last 5 years show Kiev leading Kyiv 1452 to 544. So everything depends on the different criteria.Faustian 17:08, 10 August 2007 (UTC) I'm sorry I don't see how your numbers match up. As they say on math tests : Show your work. Regards Eduvalko 12:53, 10 August 2007 (UTC) 72% more English language websites use "Kiev"[14][15] Reginmund 18:51, 10 August 2007 (UTC) The links you provided actually show more hits for Kyiv than for Kiev - 2,040,000 vs. 1,970,000. As I wrote earlier: "Apparently the algorithm is is slightly different on different googles, because when I go to google (rather than your British google.co.uk) the number of Kyiv sites is smaller, 1,890,000 [16]. Either way, according to google Kiev and Kyiv are about equally represented on the web. The discrepancy grows when one looks at books - in that case it's 14,400 for Kiev [17] versus only 856 for Kyiv [18]. Books published in the last 5 years show Kiev leading Kyiv 1452 to 544. So everything depends on the different criteria."Faustian 18:59, 10 August 2007 (UTC) No it isn't. Kiev is the first link anbd Kyiv is the second. Kiev is obviously 72% larger. Find me a Google test that shows Kyiv to be larger than Kyiv. Reginmund 20:46, 10 August 2007 (UTC) This time, Kiev showed a little over 2 million and Kyiv about 1,900,000. How is 2 million "72% larger" than 1,900,000? It seems the numbers fluctuate a bit but that generally they are about the same.Faustian 21:43, 10 August 2007 (UTC) Yes, they seem to fluctuate but Kiev is always higher. Reginmund 21:51, 10 August 2007 (UTC) When I checked this morning Kyiv had been higher by a little. Despite fluctuations they are always about the same, a far cry from your claims of Kiev being "72% higher".Faustian 22:02, 10 August 2007 (UTC) Actually it was a day ago. But doesn't it strike you that Kiev is always the most popular. I mean, it never fluctuates between Kiev being more popular then Kyiv being more popular. It is always Kiev is a little bit more popular and then Kiev is much more popular. Doesn't that tell you that Kiev is more "popular"? Reginmund 22:09, 10 August 2007 (UTC) As I said, just this morning Kyiv was slightly more popular. I find it hard to believe that it would fluctuate from a consistant 3% difference to a huge 72% difference. As for popularity - I don't think I ever claimed that Kyiv was more popular (I don't think it is among the general public, although I am not a populist who think the mob should determine things), just that the differences are not as great as you have stated. Personally I think Kiev is better and I use it, although given the decisions of most governments and especially most geographers (i.e., the National Geographic Society) I feel that Kyiv might be more appropriate. Faustian 22:18, 10 August 2007 (UTC) It was %72 when I checked yesterday. Now Kiev is 77% more popular 1,900,000 vs. 2,490,000. Yes, the differences are as great as I have stated. Reginmund 01:19, 11 August 2007 (UTC) Sorry, but you need to brush up on mathematics. 1,900,000 is about 77% of 2,490,000. That is not the same as 2,490,000 being 77% more popular than 1,900,000. Rather, it is about 23% more popular. Remember, for Kiev to be 100% more popular it would be double the Kyiv's figure, 3,800,000. So being 77% more popular would mean approximately 3,200,000 or so. BTW, right now the figures are about even again (1,900,000 Kyiv vs. 2,020,000 Kiev). I've checked a few times today and it seems the comparison is mostly a tiny Kiev advantage, with rare tiny Kyiv advantage and rare moderate Kiev advantage. At most it has been a ratio of 1.25:1, very far from figures like nine to one or even two to one. Well, I learned something in this conversation - that the number of google hits vary hour by hour.Faustian 02:54, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
Advanced Google Search: Kyiv vs Kiev= Reginmund, do you accuse me likewise of doctoring my screenshots? Horlo's appear unedited to me. You never responded with any of your own, or disputed Horlo's shots during the considerable period of time in which we stalled debate on this issue just to give those against the move time to come up with countering evidence of your own.
I have always assumed good faith, and believed that you were getting the Advanced Google Search results you were claiming. Horlo's results are different to my results. Your results are very different to my results. I thus assumed that the test results must fluctuate, instead of questioning the credibility of your evidence.
What is important is that not only were the _percentage_ differences between Horlo's results and my results different, but that the _absolute_ differences were significantly so. The total number of results for the tests Horlo undertook were greater, thus my tests weren't as accurate: websites might have been inaccessible at the times of day I tested; my population size was incorrectly small. Would you like to inform us of the absolute number of hits you recieve for both Kyiv and Kiev, rather than the percentage difference?
Also, the last posted summary in support of the move from Kiev to Kyiv did not mention the Advanced Google Search alone as proof that Kyiv is the more common usage. In fact, it may be too mild as it says the result is hung, were it might really be additional proof that Kyiv is more common. And what of the other arguments presented for the move? 60.242.0.245 07:14, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
Did you actually read my post? I said that other users should make the search independently without regarding Horlo's shots as legitimate simply because his crusading the talk page may show evidence of an ulterior motive and tampering with evidence of which spelling is more popular. So, it would be in turn ironic if I posted my own shots, yet I encourage other users to do the search on their own. I would really reccommend you read my filibuster before actually interpereting them before you make claims irrelevant to the point. Reginmund 07:20, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
I don't remember all of Horlo's argument, all of my arguments, all of Eduvalko's arguments or other people's arguments being disproven. Perhaps all of your arguments haven't really been disproven either. This is again getting messy; I don't know much about editing, so could Reginmund or somebody else perhaps start a new section please, where we can yet again restate every item of evidence for either side? I was under the impression that we had covered all that you were arguing, Reginmund, and I didn't think anything had been missed or left unchallenged. This would not be fair if I was ignoring your evidence at the same time as urging others not to do the same, and I apologise if I have done so. Perhaps opposing and supporting evidence, and the discussion surrounding each point of evidence, is lost in the quagmire above. Should we just restate the whole lot for each side again?60.242.0.245 07:26, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
Sorry, Reginmund, it appears that I'm trying to post at the same time as you; I'm out of sync with your posts.
After Horlo posted his shots, I suggested (and he agreed) that we take the Google Test as hung rather than trumpeting a win for Kyiv. As this was a while ago, and you had made several posts since, I just assumed you weren't debating this, so was suprised when you mentioned the 25% again.
If what you suggest is that we make up a table of what every editor says they see - absolute number of hits for Kyiv and for Kiev, and UTC time at which the searches were run - then it is something I suggested might be necessary before, and I would be happy to do so. Either way we will conclude something.
Sorry, that was my post60.242.0.245 07:33, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
If you skim the archives, you may see that laying down the arguments has already been tried. The fact of the matter is, both sides cannot be disproven because both side's arguments are perfectly legitimate. That made the final authority the consensus among the voters. After the vote was closed, Horlo continued to make the same arguments which led to a dilemna of going round in circles. Since both arguments are legitimate, what matters now is consensus and right now, there isn't enough to move the page to Kyiv. Reginmund 07:46, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
I checked the links that Horlo provided at 11:03 UTC (21:04 AEST), directly after I had read this page, and took a screenshot of the results:
The difference is 1.5%, in favour of Kiev. I then waited half an hour and found:
Kyiv and Kiev are pretty much tied. It is possible that in the future, such a test will consistantly have one spelling having more results associated with it than the other, by a statistically significant amount. Checking again just now, it was still almost a tie, and the evidence presented earlier on this talk page holds.
I do not understand this return to a debate on the Google test; other evidence had been debated for quite some time. This discussion now goes backwards.
[other discussion]
Thanks,60.242.0.245 12:20, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
Hello,
Are there any serious arguments against the move left?
One request - if you offer facts based on a google search, please look at the results, don't just count them. (case in point - the links offered about BBC usage of Kiev were not all about the city - the number I posted was correct). Also, please keep in mind that there are other criteria on the WP:Naming conflict page, not just google or media, keeping in mind that the BBC uses Burma, while Wikipedia uses Myanmar.
Thanks, Horlo 03:09, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
Yes,
Google shows Kiev to be 25% higher.
The media uses Kiev more significantly.
Which has been proven after you asked "Are there any more arguments against the move?".
And English doesn't have an academy. Reginmund 03:25, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
Which name is used for the airport of town in the international flight booking systems? -- Soman 21:06, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
Hello, Good point. IATA has an online book, which I don't have, but the closest I found was this:
http://www.airodyssey.net/reference/airports.html, which uses Kyiv. Thanks,
Horlo 00:55, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
KBP was and remains the code of the Boryspil airport and IEV was and remains the code of Zhuliany. HTH, -- Irpen 03:13, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
Expedia.com lists 'Kiev'. I reckon sites like that would get updated in case IATA naming would have been changed. -- Soman 15:35, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
[Step one is admitting that we have a problem]
But seriously, this discussion is getting out of hand. There are thousands of words merely about determining just what had been discussed earlier. Some comments by several parties have been arguably uncivil or un-called for, and many of our comments have been on the borderline. This has been going on for a whole month, and there is still no consensus.
WP:DR suggests disengaging for a while. Let's. I'm calling a multilateral moratorium on this page. Nothing's been decided for about 30 days, so let's just go away for three days, and no harm will be done. Maybe we'll all gain a bit of perspective.
Please, don't add any more comments on this subject until September 29, 06:00 UT. Sincere thanks. — Michael Z. 2007-09-26 05:55 Z
Hello,
I think now that everybody has had a chance to sit back and think about it for a while, it may be a good idea to re-state some arguments.
I think that the name of the article should be Kyiv for the following reasons:
1. It is a self-identifying term. It is the name that Kyiv has chosen for itself through a statement by the democratically elected government.
2. It is more common in current usage. The google test is too close to call. Just now, the numbers are 1,950,000 for Kiev, [39] and 1,740,000 for Kyiv, [40] According to other criteria, as listed on the naming conflict page, ALL major international organizations use Kyiv (UN, NATO, OSCE, Red Cross, World Bank, etc.). Media use both, but it is important to remember that Wikipedia does not necessarily follow what media uses, as for example the Wikipedia page is Myanmar, while many media organizations use Burma. Other encyclopedia are split 2:1 (Britannica and Groliers use Kiev, while Encarta uses Kyiv). ALL English-speaking governments use Kyiv.
Because of that, I think the article should be moved to Kyiv. I would be happy to hear any arguments against.
Thanks, Horlo 01:21, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
Now I would like to go over your arguments, piece by piece.
1. Wikipedia's guideline on self-identifying terms states:
Wikipedia does not take any position on whether a self-identifying entity has any right to use a name; this encyclopedia merely notes the fact that they do use that name.
This basically doesn't mean that we should change the name because the country wants us to. However we already do make note of the name. The guideline also states:
Commonly used English translations of self-identifying terms are usually preferred per Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English)
This guideline states that English does not have an academy.
2. Now I think that the Wikipedians should take the Google test for themselves. I don't know if it is a regional difference but I am receiving different results.
Kiev (39,700,000) [41]
Kyiv (5,370,000) [42]
I am finding that some other organisations use Kiev including the Red Cross [43], the UN uses Kiev more than it does Kyiv [44] [45], OCSE [46], World Bank [47], DTRA [48],
Note that Wikipedia does necessarily follow the media. The reason that Myanmar is where it is is because of the Google test. Also now that you mention it, there is a vote in progress out to change Myanmar to Burma. Where did you get that assertation? Also, not all English-speaking governemnts use Kyiv. Her Majesty's Government (UK) [49] uses Kiev.
Then There's The Guardian [50], Time magazine [51], Raddisson Hotels [52], and Britannica [53]. Reginmund 02:15, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
Hello,
Reginmund, I think that you misunderstood the quote that you cited. The quote deals with the right of the entity to use the name. For example, once upon a time, there was an East Germany and a West Germany. If one of those entities had decided to use the name "Germany", there would have been a debate, and WP would not and should not have taken sides. However, nobody here is denying Kyiv's right to call itself Kyiv.
The Use English page also states that These guidelines are under development. Please discuss and improve.. We are discussing, and hopefully improving them. These guidelines are not written in stone.
Now I also think that everybody should run the google test themselves. However, as this is the English Wikipedia, the ADVANCED google test, with filters set for English, should be used. I provided links to those very pages. I'm sure that everybody will get different results, because google fluctuates. It would be interesting to have 20 people from all around the world run the test at exactly the same second, and then compare results.
Your point about websites is very important, because it brings up the issue of what organizations are using, not what they used to use.
Red Cross: [54], OSCE: [55] World Bank: [56] NATO: [57] and the fact that the UN has used Kiev more than Kyiv simply supports my point that a simple google search is unreliable because it includes too much history and does not filter out past results well enough. The UN uses Kyiv: [58]. Now. Just like other organizations do.
Then, Reginmund, you state two facts that are completely unrelated and apparently contradictory. First, you say that Wikipedia "does" follow media. Yet media uses Burma. Immediately after that, you say that Myanmar is used, because that was because of the google test. Could you explain how those two sentences can be combined, please? As an aside, the only reason that I used Myanmar/Burma is that that is the example given in the "dealing with self-identifying entities". The government that requested the change to Myanmar was a military junta. However, the government which requested the change to Kyiv was a freely, democratically elected government.
All English-speaking governments use Kyiv. While it is true that DEFRA is a vital organization, perhaps the British Embassy may be a better indicator: [59].
It is true that Radisson Hotels are wonderful, and the room service is great, they are not really an indicator of commonality. There are many other organizations and businesses that use Kyiv, for example the IATA. Let's use the criteria provided here.
Irpen, this is a talk page. That means people are here to talk. Please feel free to contribute to this discussion.
Thanks, Horlo 04:01, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
Michael Z, thankyou for suggesting we all take a break from this. I respect you doing so, and think it was the right thing to do.
I think that things started well after that. Horlo began by restating what he saw as the case for his position thus far, and inviting those who disagreed to do the same; this was a good way to start. Reginmund responded by giving an itemised rebuttal of Horlo's summary. Again, good; I was very optimistic about what our break from discussion was resulting in...
Now, it appears that another argument is threatening to break out. Again, this seems to be the result of simple misunderstandings, and from people not seeing how others might interpret their choice of wording. Whatever anyone says - however incorrect, insulting or irritating you think or it was meant to be - it shouldn't change how you respond to things. Check that your replies match what you would have said if you were calm, and that they are worthy of you. This doesn't only apply to this particular incident and those involved in it - this happened many times before; I am guilty of posting comments before thinging over them too.
I can't believe I didn't see this before - all this time, people have been using different Google tests! So much arguing and bitterness for nothing. Let's work out what a proper test would be and agree on it, then we can all conduct it and report back with results. And then, our results actually should match up.
I hadn't even heard of a Google News search before, Jehochman; can you explain what it is please?
60.242.0.245 10:42, 30 September 2007 (UTC)