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Much of the information in this article is a re-telling of the books and is not appropriate for an encyclopedia entry. Much of the information is about Jessica and Paul Atreides and has nothing to do with the Kwisatz Haderach topic as such. That extraneous information needs to me moved to the respective entries, and may also need to be abridged.
The term 'Kfitzat ha derech' is some what an archaic attempt to express the english term "shortcut". In modern hebrew the term "Kitzur derech" is used. German "Kurz de recht" being "short of right" (right being direction as well as the term correct). Noting english "direct" of the right way or english meaning the fastest point from a to b. "Shortcut" being still highly equivalent to "Kfitzat ha derech". Spanish "derecha".
I'm no hebrew scholar, but i've always seen הַדֶּרֶךְ translated as "the way" rather than "the path." minor point, anyone think it merits changing?
- whoever wrote this, you're confusing various words that happen to look similar. spanish "derecha" (from latin "directa") has nothing to do with hebrew "derech". "kurz de recht" is garbled; "de" is a spanish or french word, not a german one. german "recht" (english "right") are cognate with latin "rectus" and with "-recta" in "directa", but again have nothing to do with hebrew "derech". Benwing 23:29, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
My 2 cents: It may not be relevant, but it is somewhat interesting to a fan of the Dune universe. And honestly, does it hurt anything to have this page here as long as it is clear that the subject is a discussion of a fictional entity but with interesting origins from the real world? — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
70.70.40.121 (
talk) 19:55, 20 January 2012 (UTC)
In the original novel, did Jessica base her decision on Leto's desire to have a son? The current wording "Jessica falls in love with Leto, and produces a son for him" seems only to hint at this. It may be clearer to mention his desire specifically.
The wording currently in the article--"However, Jessica fell in love with Leto, and produced for him the son he desired: Paul Atreides."--sounds perfectly accurate to me. Jessica believed she did it because it would make the person she loved happy. Of course, the fact that the being called "the shortcut" showed up a generation early can hardly be considered an accident. Wwdandelion ( talk) 13:48, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
The Reverend Mother said that Jessica was supposed to have borne a girl child for the Bene Gesserit Breeding Programme.
...but she chose to bear a son instead, so Paul was an accidentally/unexpectedly created Kwizat Haderach.
Chunner ( talk) 16:18, 3 July 2010 (UTC)
Does the term "Super Being" actually come up in the book or was that just a movie line? If so, I want to be the one to add it to the wiki please :) -- JVirusX 23:10, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
Movie. 82.32.218.73 ( talk) 16:12, 19 June 2010 (UTC)
It should be noted that never does Frank Herbert even hint that Reverend Mother Gaius Helen Mohiam seduced Baron Harkonnen, nor that she was Jessica's mother. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Freakzilla ( talk • contribs) 10:25, January 24, 2006
- I would argue that Alia saying "Unless I'm born as you, I cannot think as you" in Dune after getting in Mohiam's mind is just such a hint. TAnthony 04:49, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
These dubious events are creations of Kevin J. Anderson and Brian Herbert and considered blasphemy by many Dune fans. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Freakzilla ( talk • contribs) 10:25, January 24, 2006
- The Dune Encyclopedia actually first brought the suggestion about as a bit of black humor. It was added as one of the deliberate "mistakes" to uphold the book's conciet of being written in Universe. Frank Herbet himself never considered it anything other than a joke and actually named some one else as Jessica's mother. AM2783 18:00, 6 April 2006
- What is your source that it was intended as a joke and that Herbert thought it so? And the fact that he named "Tanidia Nerus" fits perfectly into the Bene Gesserit tradition of hiding parentage. I not happy myself with much of the Brian Herbert/Kevin J. Anderson nonsense but this one rings true. TAnthony 04:49, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
It should always be noted when the abominable prequels are referenced. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Freakzilla ( talk • contribs) 10:25, January 24, 2006
Paul is very formal. He calls Feyd-Rautha Harkonnen "cousin" and the Baron "grandfather" and later when dealing directly with RM Mohiam he never refers to her as grandmother. If she was his grandmother, he would have known this the same way he knew the Baron was his Grandfather, through presciance and Other Memory. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Freakzilla ( talk • contribs) 10:25, January 24, 2006
- This is indeed a good point, but doesn't prove anything either way; Paul (and Herbert) could just as easily withhold this information, seeing more value in its future use. And I believe it's Alia who calls Harkonnen "grandfather." TAnthony 04:49, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
Given the Reverend Mother's age it is *very* unlikely that she is Jessica's mother. However we know from her own lips that she has borne daughters and there is no reason why Jessica's mother of record, Tanidia Nerus, could not have been one such, or more likely a granddaughter. This of course would explain how Alia could have been 'born as you (Mohiam)' and why Paul would not bother to address the Reverend Mother as Great-Great Grandmother, the relationship being so remote. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.120.218.110 ( talk) 22:36, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
the part on hebrew "kfitzat ha-derech" should be titled as such and given a separate page, unless someone can show that the form "kwisatz haderach" was actually used (which is vaguely conceivable, as it *could* be a yiddish corruption of the original hebrew). the "kwisatz haderach" page should indicate that this term was *borrowed* from the hebrew "kfitzat ha-derech", with a link to that page. Benwing 23:35, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
In the article, the way the Tleilaxu Haderachs are explained, seems to say there was only one, and that he willingly killed himself. In the Bene Gesserit Article it says, in the Breeding Program section:
"In Dune Messiah, the Tleilaxu Scytale reveals that the Bene Tleilax created their own Kwisatz Haderachs — in their case, beings of pure evil or pure good, indicating that the term "Kwisatz Haderach" means some sort of creature of essence. Scytale observes that their Kwisatz Haderachs could be destroyed by forcing them to become their opposites."
Shouldn't the final paragraph be changed to reflect this exact same information? This would mean that it's explained the Tleilaxu claim to have created multiple Haderachs and then forced them to die- instead of saying it was one, and a "he", and committed Suicide.
(Forgot to add my signature to that, sorry) - Meeh Person 22:41, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
- Isn't this pretty much who a young Alia encounters in Paul of Dune? Ranze ( talk) 09:52, 2 September 2012 (UTC)
As described in Dune Messiah, Scytale is a Face Dancer, not a Master. This is supported by the information on the Bene Tleilax entry, the entry on Dune Messiah, as well as numerous references in the book itself. Later books, such as Heretics of Dune, refer to a character with the same name, Scytale, as a Master, but whether or not this is the same character (or a later incarnation/ghola) seems unclear. Mayanaut 21:48, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
- Perhaps face dancers can become masters? I don't recall anything preventing this. Ranze ( talk) 09:52, 2 September 2012 (UTC)
- Perhaps they can, but this is not explicitly mentioned as fact. It is mentioned in either "Heretics of Dune" or "Chaperhouse: Dune" (I'm looking for the specific section) that Scytale claims to have memories from Muad'Dib's time, which seems to suggest that somehow the Face Dancer Scytale has become a Master by that point. But this specific line of questioning is moot, because at the time of "Dune Messiah", Scytale is a Face Dancer, regardless of what he may have become in later works. Mayanaut ( talk) 16:12, 24 September 2012 (UTC)
Please see my comments about Arabic translations of Herbert's terms here: Talk:List of Dune terminology#Arabic (my arguments also apply to the Hebrew translations in this article). I don't question the quality/accuracy of the translations/analysis, I just think that any interpretation on the part of editors that is unsourced is original research. — TAnthony Talk 23:34, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
The article states that the Bene Gesserit were unable to control Paul (as the kwisatz haderach) because of his early arrival. I've always thought the reason they weren't able to control him was that he wasn't, in fact, the kwisatz haderach. Almost, but not quite. The Bene Gesserit had correctly calculated that the kwisatz haderach would come in the next generation as a result of breeding a daughter from Jessica with a son from Feyd. But that never happened and Paul, however you want to define him, wasn't under the control of the Bene Gesserit because he wasn't exactly what they'd planned for. I'm not looking at the book at the moment, but I think Paul actually says that very thing at one point. He says something like, "I am something unexpected." So, I suggest a change to the article to reflect this different interpretation. Or maybe an addition to the article to offer this different interpretation in addition to the exiting one. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.189.58.254 ( talk) 16:28, 20 April 2011 (UTC)
- there is but one kwisatz haderach - . the reel 1, 4 til sr 69.121.221.97 ( talk) 00:51, 11 June 2011 (UTC)
- They believe that being able to see the future fixes the future along a certain path; to avoid this, the Bene Gesserit provoke the Honored Matres, a rival order, into destroying most of the remnants of Leto II, whose prescience had locked the human race into such a fixed path. The Bene Gesserit also kill a number of offspring of the Atreides line in order to prevent another Kwisatz Haderach from controlling their destiny ever again.
I took this part out, can someone please support this with a book/page/quote? I've read all from Dune to Chapterhouse and there wasn't anything about the Honored Matres being provoked deliberately by the Gesserit. If this was later detailed in Hunters/Sandworms that's fine, but it should be revealed at that point, and clearly be distinguished as a Brian rather than Frank idea.
This contrasts with God-Emperor. Both Paul and Leto realized how prescience locked the future, and Leto conquered it with his genetic engineering. I don't recall the Bene Gesserit doing much plotting or killing of Atreides progeny, where is this described? Ranze ( talk) 09:50, 2 September 2012 (UTC)
|
| This redirect does not require a rating on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||
| ||||||||||||||||||
Much of the information in this article is a re-telling of the books and is not appropriate for an encyclopedia entry. Much of the information is about Jessica and Paul Atreides and has nothing to do with the Kwisatz Haderach topic as such. That extraneous information needs to me moved to the respective entries, and may also need to be abridged.
The term 'Kfitzat ha derech' is some what an archaic attempt to express the english term "shortcut". In modern hebrew the term "Kitzur derech" is used. German "Kurz de recht" being "short of right" (right being direction as well as the term correct). Noting english "direct" of the right way or english meaning the fastest point from a to b. "Shortcut" being still highly equivalent to "Kfitzat ha derech". Spanish "derecha".
I'm no hebrew scholar, but i've always seen הַדֶּרֶךְ translated as "the way" rather than "the path." minor point, anyone think it merits changing?
- whoever wrote this, you're confusing various words that happen to look similar. spanish "derecha" (from latin "directa") has nothing to do with hebrew "derech". "kurz de recht" is garbled; "de" is a spanish or french word, not a german one. german "recht" (english "right") are cognate with latin "rectus" and with "-recta" in "directa", but again have nothing to do with hebrew "derech". Benwing 23:29, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
My 2 cents: It may not be relevant, but it is somewhat interesting to a fan of the Dune universe. And honestly, does it hurt anything to have this page here as long as it is clear that the subject is a discussion of a fictional entity but with interesting origins from the real world? — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
70.70.40.121 (
talk) 19:55, 20 January 2012 (UTC)
In the original novel, did Jessica base her decision on Leto's desire to have a son? The current wording "Jessica falls in love with Leto, and produces a son for him" seems only to hint at this. It may be clearer to mention his desire specifically.
The wording currently in the article--"However, Jessica fell in love with Leto, and produced for him the son he desired: Paul Atreides."--sounds perfectly accurate to me. Jessica believed she did it because it would make the person she loved happy. Of course, the fact that the being called "the shortcut" showed up a generation early can hardly be considered an accident. Wwdandelion ( talk) 13:48, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
The Reverend Mother said that Jessica was supposed to have borne a girl child for the Bene Gesserit Breeding Programme.
...but she chose to bear a son instead, so Paul was an accidentally/unexpectedly created Kwizat Haderach.
Chunner ( talk) 16:18, 3 July 2010 (UTC)
Does the term "Super Being" actually come up in the book or was that just a movie line? If so, I want to be the one to add it to the wiki please :) -- JVirusX 23:10, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
Movie. 82.32.218.73 ( talk) 16:12, 19 June 2010 (UTC)
It should be noted that never does Frank Herbert even hint that Reverend Mother Gaius Helen Mohiam seduced Baron Harkonnen, nor that she was Jessica's mother. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Freakzilla ( talk • contribs) 10:25, January 24, 2006
- I would argue that Alia saying "Unless I'm born as you, I cannot think as you" in Dune after getting in Mohiam's mind is just such a hint. TAnthony 04:49, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
These dubious events are creations of Kevin J. Anderson and Brian Herbert and considered blasphemy by many Dune fans. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Freakzilla ( talk • contribs) 10:25, January 24, 2006
- The Dune Encyclopedia actually first brought the suggestion about as a bit of black humor. It was added as one of the deliberate "mistakes" to uphold the book's conciet of being written in Universe. Frank Herbet himself never considered it anything other than a joke and actually named some one else as Jessica's mother. AM2783 18:00, 6 April 2006
- What is your source that it was intended as a joke and that Herbert thought it so? And the fact that he named "Tanidia Nerus" fits perfectly into the Bene Gesserit tradition of hiding parentage. I not happy myself with much of the Brian Herbert/Kevin J. Anderson nonsense but this one rings true. TAnthony 04:49, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
It should always be noted when the abominable prequels are referenced. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Freakzilla ( talk • contribs) 10:25, January 24, 2006
Paul is very formal. He calls Feyd-Rautha Harkonnen "cousin" and the Baron "grandfather" and later when dealing directly with RM Mohiam he never refers to her as grandmother. If she was his grandmother, he would have known this the same way he knew the Baron was his Grandfather, through presciance and Other Memory. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Freakzilla ( talk • contribs) 10:25, January 24, 2006
- This is indeed a good point, but doesn't prove anything either way; Paul (and Herbert) could just as easily withhold this information, seeing more value in its future use. And I believe it's Alia who calls Harkonnen "grandfather." TAnthony 04:49, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
Given the Reverend Mother's age it is *very* unlikely that she is Jessica's mother. However we know from her own lips that she has borne daughters and there is no reason why Jessica's mother of record, Tanidia Nerus, could not have been one such, or more likely a granddaughter. This of course would explain how Alia could have been 'born as you (Mohiam)' and why Paul would not bother to address the Reverend Mother as Great-Great Grandmother, the relationship being so remote. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.120.218.110 ( talk) 22:36, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
the part on hebrew "kfitzat ha-derech" should be titled as such and given a separate page, unless someone can show that the form "kwisatz haderach" was actually used (which is vaguely conceivable, as it *could* be a yiddish corruption of the original hebrew). the "kwisatz haderach" page should indicate that this term was *borrowed* from the hebrew "kfitzat ha-derech", with a link to that page. Benwing 23:35, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
In the article, the way the Tleilaxu Haderachs are explained, seems to say there was only one, and that he willingly killed himself. In the Bene Gesserit Article it says, in the Breeding Program section:
"In Dune Messiah, the Tleilaxu Scytale reveals that the Bene Tleilax created their own Kwisatz Haderachs — in their case, beings of pure evil or pure good, indicating that the term "Kwisatz Haderach" means some sort of creature of essence. Scytale observes that their Kwisatz Haderachs could be destroyed by forcing them to become their opposites."
Shouldn't the final paragraph be changed to reflect this exact same information? This would mean that it's explained the Tleilaxu claim to have created multiple Haderachs and then forced them to die- instead of saying it was one, and a "he", and committed Suicide.
(Forgot to add my signature to that, sorry) - Meeh Person 22:41, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
- Isn't this pretty much who a young Alia encounters in Paul of Dune? Ranze ( talk) 09:52, 2 September 2012 (UTC)
As described in Dune Messiah, Scytale is a Face Dancer, not a Master. This is supported by the information on the Bene Tleilax entry, the entry on Dune Messiah, as well as numerous references in the book itself. Later books, such as Heretics of Dune, refer to a character with the same name, Scytale, as a Master, but whether or not this is the same character (or a later incarnation/ghola) seems unclear. Mayanaut 21:48, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
- Perhaps face dancers can become masters? I don't recall anything preventing this. Ranze ( talk) 09:52, 2 September 2012 (UTC)
- Perhaps they can, but this is not explicitly mentioned as fact. It is mentioned in either "Heretics of Dune" or "Chaperhouse: Dune" (I'm looking for the specific section) that Scytale claims to have memories from Muad'Dib's time, which seems to suggest that somehow the Face Dancer Scytale has become a Master by that point. But this specific line of questioning is moot, because at the time of "Dune Messiah", Scytale is a Face Dancer, regardless of what he may have become in later works. Mayanaut ( talk) 16:12, 24 September 2012 (UTC)
Please see my comments about Arabic translations of Herbert's terms here: Talk:List of Dune terminology#Arabic (my arguments also apply to the Hebrew translations in this article). I don't question the quality/accuracy of the translations/analysis, I just think that any interpretation on the part of editors that is unsourced is original research. — TAnthony Talk 23:34, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
The article states that the Bene Gesserit were unable to control Paul (as the kwisatz haderach) because of his early arrival. I've always thought the reason they weren't able to control him was that he wasn't, in fact, the kwisatz haderach. Almost, but not quite. The Bene Gesserit had correctly calculated that the kwisatz haderach would come in the next generation as a result of breeding a daughter from Jessica with a son from Feyd. But that never happened and Paul, however you want to define him, wasn't under the control of the Bene Gesserit because he wasn't exactly what they'd planned for. I'm not looking at the book at the moment, but I think Paul actually says that very thing at one point. He says something like, "I am something unexpected." So, I suggest a change to the article to reflect this different interpretation. Or maybe an addition to the article to offer this different interpretation in addition to the exiting one. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.189.58.254 ( talk) 16:28, 20 April 2011 (UTC)
- there is but one kwisatz haderach - . the reel 1, 4 til sr 69.121.221.97 ( talk) 00:51, 11 June 2011 (UTC)
- They believe that being able to see the future fixes the future along a certain path; to avoid this, the Bene Gesserit provoke the Honored Matres, a rival order, into destroying most of the remnants of Leto II, whose prescience had locked the human race into such a fixed path. The Bene Gesserit also kill a number of offspring of the Atreides line in order to prevent another Kwisatz Haderach from controlling their destiny ever again.
I took this part out, can someone please support this with a book/page/quote? I've read all from Dune to Chapterhouse and there wasn't anything about the Honored Matres being provoked deliberately by the Gesserit. If this was later detailed in Hunters/Sandworms that's fine, but it should be revealed at that point, and clearly be distinguished as a Brian rather than Frank idea.
This contrasts with God-Emperor. Both Paul and Leto realized how prescience locked the future, and Leto conquered it with his genetic engineering. I don't recall the Bene Gesserit doing much plotting or killing of Atreides progeny, where is this described? Ranze ( talk) 09:50, 2 September 2012 (UTC)