This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | Archive 9 |
In this article, Karenga was described as "An African-American scholar and social activist." The description of Karenga in the main article about him says he "is an African American author, political activist, and convicted felon." However, after I edited this page to include the fact that he is a felon, my edit was removed, because another editor felt that it made this "article read as if Wikipedia has a weird grudge against a random US holiday."
I did not know that the inclusion of verifiable and indisputable facts makes an article sound like it has a "grudge." For the sake of balance, I believe it is important to present both positive and negative information. There seems to be some disagreement on this point.
An earlier removal of the description of Karenga as a convicted felon pointed out, correctly, that he was not a convicted felon in 1966, when he created Kwanzaa. However, he was not a scholar or author at that time, either.
Since there is conflict over how to describe Karenga, I have removed the descriptors. Anyone interested in knowing more about Karenga can follow the link to the main article about him. Godfrey Daniel ( talk) 00:51, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
Considering he is a known rapist/kidnapper/torturer http://www.google.ca/search?q=kwanzaa+rapist+torture&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a That information should be, and must be included. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.93.47.212 ( talk) 21:57, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
Looks like vandalism season may come early this year...watchers, keep your eyes open. -- jpgordon ::==( o ) 00:50, 31 October 2009 (UTC)
Hi! I know nothing about Kwanzaa, so maybe my question will look a bit odd. Is there any specific food associated with Kwanzaa? A "karamu" is mentioned in the article but no menu or example of food/recipes is included. I think food is always an important "first contact" with a culture or a tradition, so it's worth mentioning. Thanks. 70.83.220.148 ( talk) 06:17, 13 December 2009 (UTC)
I am interested in knowing how many African-Americans live by the seven Kwanzaa principles throughout the year. I have just purchased a new book (I think that it is new for 2009) titled Harambee! Kwanzaa Family Guide. It has a few chapters about the deeping meaning of being "African", but so far, I'm most impressed with the way it gives guidance on how to "Practice" Kwanzaa all year. Your thought?
Harambee! Kwanzaa Family Guide
Damonclp ( talk) 03:47, 17 December 2009 (UTC)Lemon T
Seriously, this article has every use of the word "black" capitalized as though it were a proper noun. As I mentioned to the editor who seems to have a problem agreeing with me, black is a color or can be used as an adjective. Unless its being used in the title of a book or film, there is no reason it should be capitalized. It is not a proper noun. In the article Black People you can see that the term "black people" is not a race (a situation where it would be capitalized, ex. Nigerian people) but rather a definition of how someone looks, description being an adjective. The word black should not be capitalized within this article. — ASPENSTI— TALK— CONTRIBUTIONS 23:41, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
I've changed a handful of occurrences to upper case to match the source of the quotes. -- jpgordon ::==( o ) 01:04, 25 December 2009 (UTC)
Perhaps Aspensti would care to cite a recent style guide that both (i) prescribes "black" (or clearly prefers it to "Black") and (ii) allows its use as a fused head. Such a style guide may exist, but my own quick look didn't turn one up. -- Hoary ( talk) 01:19, 25 December 2009 (UTC)
Why is the word Black capitalized each time but the word white is always lower case? Shouldn't the two words be equal stylistically? Would it be considered racist if I used lowercase blacks and uppercase Whites? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.21.17.80 ( talk) 22:54, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
Whatever you may think of Kwanzaa (or capitalization), this article is pretty dreadful. It's sourced only spasmodically, and the footnotes include ... well, let's look at one gem:
This turns out to be:
Believersweb says of itself:
Nothing here that suggests anything like journalistic, let alone academic standards.
Let's look at Morrow's cited "source", http://christocentric.com/Kwanzaa/ . It turns out to be her own:
Christocentric.org is a blog by people whose main interests seem to be the evils of Kwanzaa and gay marriage! (Or possibly even gayness in general, though I didn't bother to look!) Hey, exclamation points are addictive! (That's enough exclamation points. -- ed.)
And this source does not look particularly bad by the standards of this article.
Come on, people, you can write a better article than this. -- Hoary ( talk) 09:42, 25 December 2009 (UTC)
Bad source, see http://www.officialkwanzaawebsite.org/faq.shtml —Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.97.26.186 ( talk) 20:45, 20 December 2010 (UTC)
The article attributed something to:
That link is dead, but here it is at web.archive.org. It starts:
This is an opinion piece. It doesn't even pretend to be scrupulous. As a Wikipedia source, it's complete garbage. -- Hoary ( talk) 15:07, 25 December 2009 (UTC)
We're told:
Indeed he did. But he was secretary for Dubya. (What if he were instead described as "syndicated columnist and regular guest host of the Rush Limbaugh Show"?)
The problem is, the article is just another rant. In one place:
In another:
So who's to blame for what happened in Rwanda, Snow? The sporting Rwandans, or the genocidally maniacal Rwandans?
Snow (who's dead) probably didn't care. (Those in the reality-based community who actually do care could do worse than read the relevant section of Jared Diamond's Collapse.)
All sorts of incidents, issues and people cause outrage in one or other of the large number of right-wing US talking heads. But outrage is their stock in trade. If the particular outrage isn't shown to have done anything, I suggest that it's insignificant and doesn't merit a mention. -- Hoary ( talk) 11:35, 26 December 2009 (UTC)
There are other people who have found the holiday a bit questionable, see for example The Kwanzaa Hoax by William J. Bennetta. Then again, how much does this matter, if people find celebrating Kwanzaa satisfying? Not that it, equally, merits the denial of the truth. Everyone for example knows historical Christ was not born on the 25th of January, but people still celebrate Christmas. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.229.17.103 ( talk) 16:18, 28 December 2009 (UTC)
I removed the blowhard again, as well as a real weak source pointing to a real weak source in the criticism section. -- jpgordon ::==( o ) 16:09, 31 December 2009 (UTC)
Is everyone OK with me removing the Kwanzaa film section and adding it into a See also section? From what is discussed, they film doesn't seem particularly notable, and I'm sure there are numerous films involving the holiday. Cheers, Mm40 ( talk) 14:13, 26 December 2009 (UTC)
The author states "In the late 2000s, Kwanzaa has been observed less commonly than ever" must be in error since the late 2000's are still future. If on the other hand he/she means the first decade of the 2000 millennium a better wording is in order. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.252.65.18 ( talk) 14:31, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
There is way too much about this guy in this article. He may have had some of the first ideas but the holiday is much bigger than him now. It is annoying to me as someone who enjoys this holiday to have everything about it so closely associated with a guy who's views are... dubious. I think this articles fails to convey what Kwanzaa represents to people who celebrate it today. futurebird ( talk) 03:44, 31 December 2009 (UTC)
—Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.76.82.73 ( talk) 18:17, 27 January 2010 (UTC)
Dubious? He was an insane, racist, kidnapper, rapist, torturer. Everything about him should be associated with kwanzaa just to show how wrong it is. http://www.google.ca/search?q=kwanzaa+rapist+torture&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a
Someone should probably fix this...I don't know enough sorry, see the "informative" box —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.69.23.207 ( talk) 00:05, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
I'd like to see some IPA pronunciation keys inserted next to words that are both Swahili or Swahili in origin. It would be a great help to readers who have had no prior experience pronouncing these terms (also, it would help with not embarrassing oneself when wishing someone a happy Kwanzaa). These are the terms I think are hard to determine pronunciation from just reading the word:
We may also want to include the word Kwanzaa itself, because, though it is in the American English vernacular, pronunciation may not be apparent to English-speaking readers from other countries whom have never heard of the holiday. » ɧʒЖχ ( ταικ• κоŋτяљ) 16:56, 14 July 2010 (UTC)
Doesn't each day of Kwanzaa have its own meaning? I was expecting to find this information here. Be great if someone could add it. Thanks. Jaque Hammer ( talk) 03:48, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
The article has been semi-protected as usual this time of year; the scum rises early, it seems. -- jpgordon ::==( o ) 15:58, 2 December 2010 (UTC)
Scum? Like Kerenga? http://www.google.ca/search?q=kwanzaa+rapist+torture&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.93.47.212 ( talk) 22:00, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
"Mayes adds that white institutions now celebrate it.[13]" This reads like here-say.
First, what does it mean that "white institutions" celebrate it? What is an example of a white institution?
In the quoted article, this quote reads like a desperate attempt to give the holiday more multicultural credibility. It is also cited a bit out of context. The main article actually says, "... said Mayes, adding that white institutions celebrate it as part of a broader diversity initiative", which seems to say less that these institutions believe in the holiday and rather that they include it among the usual winter holiday laundry list, in an attempt to avoid the appearance of bias. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.174.54.249 ( talk) 04:06, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
No mention of the Hanukkah influence and similarities? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 210.185.9.149 ( talk) 06:24, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
I've reverted another editor twice. The source does not support the statement that Kwanzaa is often derided as a made up holiday--it does deride Kwanzaa, and it does not appear to me to be a reliable source. The reference to futurama episode needs a reference as well. -- Nuujinn ( talk) 23:04, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
According to the official Kwanzaa website ( http://www.officialkwanzaawebsite.org/symbols.shtml) these are the symbols of Kwanzaa: crops, mat, candleholder, corn, 7 candles, unity cup, gifts, the black, red, and green flag, and the poster of the 7 principles. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.42.95.107 ( talk) 02:36, 22 December 2010 (UTC)
These symbols should be given in the article, hopefully before the start of Kwanzaa. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.42.95.107 ( talk) 18:20, 23 December 2010 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | Archive 9 |
In this article, Karenga was described as "An African-American scholar and social activist." The description of Karenga in the main article about him says he "is an African American author, political activist, and convicted felon." However, after I edited this page to include the fact that he is a felon, my edit was removed, because another editor felt that it made this "article read as if Wikipedia has a weird grudge against a random US holiday."
I did not know that the inclusion of verifiable and indisputable facts makes an article sound like it has a "grudge." For the sake of balance, I believe it is important to present both positive and negative information. There seems to be some disagreement on this point.
An earlier removal of the description of Karenga as a convicted felon pointed out, correctly, that he was not a convicted felon in 1966, when he created Kwanzaa. However, he was not a scholar or author at that time, either.
Since there is conflict over how to describe Karenga, I have removed the descriptors. Anyone interested in knowing more about Karenga can follow the link to the main article about him. Godfrey Daniel ( talk) 00:51, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
Considering he is a known rapist/kidnapper/torturer http://www.google.ca/search?q=kwanzaa+rapist+torture&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a That information should be, and must be included. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.93.47.212 ( talk) 21:57, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
Looks like vandalism season may come early this year...watchers, keep your eyes open. -- jpgordon ::==( o ) 00:50, 31 October 2009 (UTC)
Hi! I know nothing about Kwanzaa, so maybe my question will look a bit odd. Is there any specific food associated with Kwanzaa? A "karamu" is mentioned in the article but no menu or example of food/recipes is included. I think food is always an important "first contact" with a culture or a tradition, so it's worth mentioning. Thanks. 70.83.220.148 ( talk) 06:17, 13 December 2009 (UTC)
I am interested in knowing how many African-Americans live by the seven Kwanzaa principles throughout the year. I have just purchased a new book (I think that it is new for 2009) titled Harambee! Kwanzaa Family Guide. It has a few chapters about the deeping meaning of being "African", but so far, I'm most impressed with the way it gives guidance on how to "Practice" Kwanzaa all year. Your thought?
Harambee! Kwanzaa Family Guide
Damonclp ( talk) 03:47, 17 December 2009 (UTC)Lemon T
Seriously, this article has every use of the word "black" capitalized as though it were a proper noun. As I mentioned to the editor who seems to have a problem agreeing with me, black is a color or can be used as an adjective. Unless its being used in the title of a book or film, there is no reason it should be capitalized. It is not a proper noun. In the article Black People you can see that the term "black people" is not a race (a situation where it would be capitalized, ex. Nigerian people) but rather a definition of how someone looks, description being an adjective. The word black should not be capitalized within this article. — ASPENSTI— TALK— CONTRIBUTIONS 23:41, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
I've changed a handful of occurrences to upper case to match the source of the quotes. -- jpgordon ::==( o ) 01:04, 25 December 2009 (UTC)
Perhaps Aspensti would care to cite a recent style guide that both (i) prescribes "black" (or clearly prefers it to "Black") and (ii) allows its use as a fused head. Such a style guide may exist, but my own quick look didn't turn one up. -- Hoary ( talk) 01:19, 25 December 2009 (UTC)
Why is the word Black capitalized each time but the word white is always lower case? Shouldn't the two words be equal stylistically? Would it be considered racist if I used lowercase blacks and uppercase Whites? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.21.17.80 ( talk) 22:54, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
Whatever you may think of Kwanzaa (or capitalization), this article is pretty dreadful. It's sourced only spasmodically, and the footnotes include ... well, let's look at one gem:
This turns out to be:
Believersweb says of itself:
Nothing here that suggests anything like journalistic, let alone academic standards.
Let's look at Morrow's cited "source", http://christocentric.com/Kwanzaa/ . It turns out to be her own:
Christocentric.org is a blog by people whose main interests seem to be the evils of Kwanzaa and gay marriage! (Or possibly even gayness in general, though I didn't bother to look!) Hey, exclamation points are addictive! (That's enough exclamation points. -- ed.)
And this source does not look particularly bad by the standards of this article.
Come on, people, you can write a better article than this. -- Hoary ( talk) 09:42, 25 December 2009 (UTC)
Bad source, see http://www.officialkwanzaawebsite.org/faq.shtml —Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.97.26.186 ( talk) 20:45, 20 December 2010 (UTC)
The article attributed something to:
That link is dead, but here it is at web.archive.org. It starts:
This is an opinion piece. It doesn't even pretend to be scrupulous. As a Wikipedia source, it's complete garbage. -- Hoary ( talk) 15:07, 25 December 2009 (UTC)
We're told:
Indeed he did. But he was secretary for Dubya. (What if he were instead described as "syndicated columnist and regular guest host of the Rush Limbaugh Show"?)
The problem is, the article is just another rant. In one place:
In another:
So who's to blame for what happened in Rwanda, Snow? The sporting Rwandans, or the genocidally maniacal Rwandans?
Snow (who's dead) probably didn't care. (Those in the reality-based community who actually do care could do worse than read the relevant section of Jared Diamond's Collapse.)
All sorts of incidents, issues and people cause outrage in one or other of the large number of right-wing US talking heads. But outrage is their stock in trade. If the particular outrage isn't shown to have done anything, I suggest that it's insignificant and doesn't merit a mention. -- Hoary ( talk) 11:35, 26 December 2009 (UTC)
There are other people who have found the holiday a bit questionable, see for example The Kwanzaa Hoax by William J. Bennetta. Then again, how much does this matter, if people find celebrating Kwanzaa satisfying? Not that it, equally, merits the denial of the truth. Everyone for example knows historical Christ was not born on the 25th of January, but people still celebrate Christmas. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.229.17.103 ( talk) 16:18, 28 December 2009 (UTC)
I removed the blowhard again, as well as a real weak source pointing to a real weak source in the criticism section. -- jpgordon ::==( o ) 16:09, 31 December 2009 (UTC)
Is everyone OK with me removing the Kwanzaa film section and adding it into a See also section? From what is discussed, they film doesn't seem particularly notable, and I'm sure there are numerous films involving the holiday. Cheers, Mm40 ( talk) 14:13, 26 December 2009 (UTC)
The author states "In the late 2000s, Kwanzaa has been observed less commonly than ever" must be in error since the late 2000's are still future. If on the other hand he/she means the first decade of the 2000 millennium a better wording is in order. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.252.65.18 ( talk) 14:31, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
There is way too much about this guy in this article. He may have had some of the first ideas but the holiday is much bigger than him now. It is annoying to me as someone who enjoys this holiday to have everything about it so closely associated with a guy who's views are... dubious. I think this articles fails to convey what Kwanzaa represents to people who celebrate it today. futurebird ( talk) 03:44, 31 December 2009 (UTC)
—Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.76.82.73 ( talk) 18:17, 27 January 2010 (UTC)
Dubious? He was an insane, racist, kidnapper, rapist, torturer. Everything about him should be associated with kwanzaa just to show how wrong it is. http://www.google.ca/search?q=kwanzaa+rapist+torture&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a
Someone should probably fix this...I don't know enough sorry, see the "informative" box —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.69.23.207 ( talk) 00:05, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
I'd like to see some IPA pronunciation keys inserted next to words that are both Swahili or Swahili in origin. It would be a great help to readers who have had no prior experience pronouncing these terms (also, it would help with not embarrassing oneself when wishing someone a happy Kwanzaa). These are the terms I think are hard to determine pronunciation from just reading the word:
We may also want to include the word Kwanzaa itself, because, though it is in the American English vernacular, pronunciation may not be apparent to English-speaking readers from other countries whom have never heard of the holiday. » ɧʒЖχ ( ταικ• κоŋτяљ) 16:56, 14 July 2010 (UTC)
Doesn't each day of Kwanzaa have its own meaning? I was expecting to find this information here. Be great if someone could add it. Thanks. Jaque Hammer ( talk) 03:48, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
The article has been semi-protected as usual this time of year; the scum rises early, it seems. -- jpgordon ::==( o ) 15:58, 2 December 2010 (UTC)
Scum? Like Kerenga? http://www.google.ca/search?q=kwanzaa+rapist+torture&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.93.47.212 ( talk) 22:00, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
"Mayes adds that white institutions now celebrate it.[13]" This reads like here-say.
First, what does it mean that "white institutions" celebrate it? What is an example of a white institution?
In the quoted article, this quote reads like a desperate attempt to give the holiday more multicultural credibility. It is also cited a bit out of context. The main article actually says, "... said Mayes, adding that white institutions celebrate it as part of a broader diversity initiative", which seems to say less that these institutions believe in the holiday and rather that they include it among the usual winter holiday laundry list, in an attempt to avoid the appearance of bias. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.174.54.249 ( talk) 04:06, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
No mention of the Hanukkah influence and similarities? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 210.185.9.149 ( talk) 06:24, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
I've reverted another editor twice. The source does not support the statement that Kwanzaa is often derided as a made up holiday--it does deride Kwanzaa, and it does not appear to me to be a reliable source. The reference to futurama episode needs a reference as well. -- Nuujinn ( talk) 23:04, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
According to the official Kwanzaa website ( http://www.officialkwanzaawebsite.org/symbols.shtml) these are the symbols of Kwanzaa: crops, mat, candleholder, corn, 7 candles, unity cup, gifts, the black, red, and green flag, and the poster of the 7 principles. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.42.95.107 ( talk) 02:36, 22 December 2010 (UTC)
These symbols should be given in the article, hopefully before the start of Kwanzaa. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.42.95.107 ( talk) 18:20, 23 December 2010 (UTC)