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Kwanza is celebrated very little in the world apart from the U.S. and U.K. Many of the most sophisticated Africans I know have discussed this with me. 76.179.235.134 02:42, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
I do not know who William Norman Grigg is and have redlinked his name in the article. If he is notable enought to be mentioned in the article for his opinion then he should be getting his own article- or at least his own stub. Therefore he should remain redlinked to encourage someone who actually knows who he is to write an article. Angrynight 14:16, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
I do not know who Sara McGill is. Apparently she wrote a book titled "Kwanzaa" published in 2005. A google search for her and the word "Kwanzaa" returns only this page and others citing it. Amazon.com does not seem to have any author named Sara McGill and has no book titled simply "Kwanzaa" published in the year 2005. I can find no information on this author or her book. Can someone confirm this is in fact a real book, seeing as this article quotes two sentences from it? An ISBN would be nice, in order to make Ms. McGill's quotation verifiable. Thanks. 66.17.118.207 20:12, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
...It appears to have been put in here. The contributor hasn't been around much since. -- jpgordon ∇∆∇∆ 20:40, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
The link for the Karenga quote on placing Kwanzaa near Christmas is dead. I have found a new link that shows it was posted by an anti-Kwanzaa site with no reference to when Karenga said this. I haven't found when the statement was added, but it seems that this is a press release attempting to denounce the holiday and has no reference to when Karenga supposedly said all this. Do we have a direct quote from an unbiased source? If not, I'm going to remove the quote as it is a bit inflammatory. Thesilence 16:01, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
In light of record-time revert from Chihuahua, why is it OK to say "karenga the political activist" but not "karenga the political activist and convicted felon"? "felon" is more verifiable than the "activist" description.
Justforasecond 18:12, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
Responding to the RFC entry: - in the context of Kwanzaa, the criminal or other record of its founder is not particularly relevant. Those who want to know more about him, can read his own, personal, article. That's broadly how
user:Katefan0 comented, and I broadly concur. This article has a controversy section that nicely seems to cover the controversies which relate to the holiday.
FT2 (
Talk |
email) 10:27, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
An objective note of correction: Karenga's group was never "United Slaves." It was always Us/US. It was never an acronym and the page master's resistance to removing this inaccuracy reflects his entirely polemical intentions. He cannot, for example, find any official documentation proving otherwise. See Scot Brown's impressive book, Fighting for US, NYU Press, 2003. 137.99.108.127 20:40, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
"There has been criticism of Kwanzaa's authenticity and relevance, and of the motiviations of its founder, Karenga. The origins of Kwanzaa are not secret, and are openly acknowledged by those promoting the holiday"
Because of the linguistic structure, the typical reader would think that this "acknowledgement" corresponds to the "authenticity, relevance, and motivations of its founder" in the previous sentence. Seeing a reference there gives this sentence the feeling of legitimacy. However, if you follow the link provided, it does not address this material. Beyond that, the "not secret" description is pointless -- nothing in wikipedia is secret; the entire world has access to it.
Justforasecond 05:41, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
Please remember to remain civil, jpgordon. Justforasecond 23:58, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
If I may jump in.
elpincha 03:29, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
Is it me, or are there contributors here that have nothing else to do other than to find anything black on Wikipdedia, and do their best to illustrate everything negative they can find. Of course as a side note these obsessives are ok if articles about white people also include or illuminate negative aspects on those articles, but of course our obsessives won't be the ones taking the extra effort to do so themselves. Oh hey, Justforasecond, how's it going by the way? -- Zaphnathpaaneah 05:36, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
That'll work. Though I don't think the "some" is 'weasely' (a source is provided), your edit makes it more specific. Thanks. Ufwuct 21:40, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
...shall we consider semi-protecting the article now, or should we wait until the usual barrage of abuse starts, as it will? -- jpgordon ∇∆∇∆ 18:54, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
I am not an account-holding member of wikipedia, but what steps need to be taken to have that sign above the top of the article stating "the neutrality of this article is disputed?" This article cites heavily bias sources (ann coulter!?) and the majority of it seems to be trying to belittle and ridicule the holiday as a whole. Especially as the season approaches, I'd hate for someone trying to learn more about Kwanzaa come to see this page as it is.
-Sekou
I've celebrated Kwanzaa myself for many years, so I may have a little bias. The quote in the second paragraph of the History and Etymology page, if you look at the source, is from a politically charged website and is somewhat tertiary. I think it deserves some balancing evidence, or at least some mention that it is not a direct quote.
I do think it is important for people to know about what Karenga may have said, but I think there should also be more information about how the celebration is conducted, common practices, etc. The holiday itself in-practice is somewhat separate from the person who created it.
Also I think the word "exclusively" in the first sentence makes for further stigma towards the holiday, even though in actuality it doesn't try to exclude... from the official site: "Any particular message that is good for a particular people, if it is human in its content and ethical in its grounding, speaks not just to that people, it speaks to the world."
But the article is coming along, definitely a lot better... Hope you don't run into too much trouble during the holidays -Sekou
Do not walk through an article and remove my edits with out a discussion, you have reverted everything i have done for no reason. Discuss before starting an issue, Karenga is a Pan-Africanist, go and look up the term. Kwanza is a Pan-African holiday, -- Halaqah 17:39, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
black and black people doesnt fit in with kwanza, Karenga calls it an African American holiday, dont turn around and start talking about black and black holiday. He clearly more often than not calls it a Pan-African holiday. Jpgordon went crazy and reverted everything i added, he didnt look at the context of sentences which in one hand said blacks and the next African American. Indians are black, so which black group are you talking about? I have not changed any of the quoted material, do not revert anything i have done with discussing it here. even the image i moved to get rid of the white space he/she reverted.-- Halaqah 17:48, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
Ok i understand notice i have listen to what you have said and havent changed back the things which are quoted. I dont think the kwanzaa article should be used to discuss ron karenga, that can be done on Ron Karenga. I understand because i watch out for certain topics which are subjected to all forms of mad people. -- Halaqah 18:26, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
I have found u either love him to bits or hate him, there is no middle ground. He knows how to change or adapt i respect him for that. -- Halaqah 18:37, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
I really dont know who edits here,
almost exclusively by African-Americans in the United States of America.[citation needed]
I have not removed this strange remark about "Exclusively" I am not African American and i celebrate Kwanzaa, so do many people in Africa. I will let you go and get a solid reference. PLease not the reference i have added from the mouth of the creator. everywhere it says PAN AFRICAN and these people delete this and said "black nationalist"-- Halaqah 18:11, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
I know there aren't supposed to be commercial links on Wikipedia, but would someone be so kind as to post some links on where to get Kwanzaa decorations? They are HARD TO FIND, and my wife and I have been trying to find some for our kids...
Thanks!
-- Mkamensek (talk) - The LeftOverChef
Far too many people are coming here and vandalizing the page, i will back any request for page protection. why does wikipedia allow unreg users to do this? It always means someone has to stand guard on these pages. -- Halaqah 12:52, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
Seven symbols are displayed during the Kwanzaa ceremony to represent the seven principles of African culture and community. Mkeka (M-kay-cah) - This is the mat (usually made of straw, but it can also be made of fabric or paper) upon which all the other Kwanzaa symbols are placed. The mat represents the foundation of African traditions and history.
Mazao (Maah-zow) - The crops, fruits and vegetables, represent traditional African harvest celebrations and show respect for the people who labored to grow them.
Kinara (Kee-nah-rah) - The candle holder represents the original stalk from which all African ancestors came. It holds the seven candles.
Mishumaa (Mee-shoo-maah) - In the seven candles, each candle represents one of the seven principles. The candles are red, green, and black -- symbolic of the African people and their struggles.
Muhindi (Moo-heen-dee) - The corn represents African children and the promise of their future. One ear of corn is set out for each child in the family. In a family without children, one ear is set out symbolically to represent the children of the community.
Kikombe cha Umoja (Kee-com-bay chah-oo-moe-jah) - The Unity Cup symbolizes the first principle of Kwanzaa -- the unity of family and of the African people. The cup is used to pour the libation (water, juice or wine) for family and friends.
Zawadi (Sah-wah-dee) - The gifts represent the labors of the parents and the rewards of their children. Gifts are given to educate and enrich the children -- they may include a book, a piece of art or an educational toy. At least one of the gifts is a symbol of African heritage. -- HalaTruth(ሀላካሕ) 18:54, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
Aren't there quite a few critics of Kwanzaa? I think it deserves a section. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 209.66.50.130 ( talk) 15:07, 18 December 2006 (UTC).
M&S4K reads like a promotion. And the second Videos and Media link, the footnote to M&S4K and the last external link are the same. Should be changed. Vitriol 16:52, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
I actually re-wrote the music section, songs of Kwanzaa, I see no reason to delete it, If it is a valid aspect of kwanzaa it should be left, if however it had no kwanzaa content it should be removed, a physical video of the founder explaining Kwanzaa is a million words. -- HalaTruth(ሀላካሕ) 20:19, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
The video comes from that site, i dont think linking to Utube is a good idea you get all sorts of garabage up there plus it would nt have the explaination and isnt a kwanzaa site, many people i have notice just use utube to stream videos, it is free and they dont fill up there sites. But the video is branded with the name of the site so it is there video, they have a lot of karenga videos up there. I might have to delete the 2nd one because i know the film is about Kwanzaa but there is no links etc, Yes the 2nd one was one company selling one product, When i rewrote it i was saying the same thing they should be a diverse group of sources but i only found that one site.-- HalaTruth(ሀላካሕ) 12:28, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
the video is owned by that site they created it, watch it and see. I have added details about the other kwanzaa film.-- HalaTruth(ሀላካሕ) 16:56, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
In response to the claim that the kinara is borrowed from Judaism's menorah, it says, "However, there is a tradition of Black Jews and the Exodus, the "going forth" of the Children of Israel, has historically been a metaphor for their struggle as a people."
What?! What does that have anything to do with the kinara? Blacks seem themselves metaphorically as Jews, and therefore used Jewish symbols? If that's what it's trying to say, then it should be clearer. The menorah has nothing to do with Exodus or "going forth".
Lets end this stupid debate, it is not a valid claim, as all holidays have a start date, the very xmas is more fake than Kwanzaa if the word fake means what they say it means. All holidays are invented, thanksgiving the Passover at some point they enter world culture. Kwanzaa is not from the continent of Africa but it is a valid African Holiday, a New World African holiday. The founder is African and the culture is African hence it is African, not traditional but contemporary.-- HalaTruth(ሀላካሕ) 20:16, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
The point is it a invalid assertion, this is not a list of issues with Kwanzaa it is an encyclopedia and in it the issue is what is kwanzaa not a string of every mad person who has a opinion on Karenga or Kwanzaa. Imagine if every article did that for say G Bush? So we need to filter down to what is a valid critic, FAKE isnt valid because all holidays have an origin and thus most of them are made up. It is thus not a valid discussion, And yes we debate here what to include into the article to make it encylopedic and some debates, as someone said from unqualified people have no place here.-- HalaTruth(ሀላካሕ) 21:00, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
All references especially negative ones need to be 100% i dont think any extreme racist people should be cited as a source on what is a traditional African holiday or not, such a source needs to come from a historical figure or someone who has some idea about African celebratory practices, A man who sums up Islam as "evil" and then attacks Kwanzaa really is not a man with a sound mental or academic character to be cited here. Bring an African academic who says it isnt African and then that is valid, because many Africans say it is valid as karenga is an Africa so Kwanzaa is African, and since an African created it is a valid African holiday, point being bring real sources not mad people or haters Jesse Lee Peterson take a look at his record he under no circumstances belongs here. See wiki policy on quality sources, haters are not allowed. he is probally just jealous of Karenga.-- HalaTruth(ሀላካሕ) 21:07, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
Let me reassert
Jesse Lee Peterson opnions are not valid, He is not an African historian, he has no knowledge of African culture or African religions. Further more he is a highly controversial charecter who is know for unreasonable statements which are against African Americans, re Katrina. We do not list a list all personal opinions on Kwanzaa, i am sure every one has one, he is not a crediable source.
Wikipedia:Reliable sources i will go further have a read of
Appeal to authority, Peterson violates
NPOV and is an extream source. for all of these reasons his comments cannot be admitted here, his personal opinions do not belong in an encyclopedic context.
Everyone has an opinion, he is a vile human, find someone else who has some sort of credit as a qulified cultural historian, a religious African figure. You can not validiate the rantings of a clearly confused man, a man who is know to be a racist, and a bigot. Imagine if someone quoted Hitlers views on Judaism or Africans? His views are invalid by nature of his legacy.--
HalaTruth(ሀላካሕ) 03:31, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
JPgordon, I received a call from a reporter in Canada who wanted to interview me from seeing my website mentioned as a critic's source on Kwanzaa. Much to my dismay, my source was deleted. Why? Simply because no one knows who I am? I used researched material including Karenga's own writings to show that he indeed created Kwanzaa as a substitute not only for Christmas, but for one's religion. Many people have written me asides from the reporter in Canada who is also questioning why my source is removed. There appears to be bias and only "well known" people deserve a spot. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Im2old ( talk • contribs) 17:04, December 27, 2006
Thank your for your explanation JPGordon. But I'm wondering, why have a page of critics or criticism if people's sources can't be used? And what if other's inserted our information? I am a critic of Kwanzaa but when would my factual information be used? No matter my personal opinion regarding Kwanzaa, I had presented information that showed contradictions using Karenga's own words from two of his books on Kwanzaa. This information is unopinionated, presented in a way where anyone can make up their own minds on what was written. Im2old 20:55, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
Imagine this , The Reverend Peterson also stirred up controversy in September of 2005, when he penned a column for the conservative World Net Daily in which he accused black people stranded in New Orleans during Hurricane Katrina of being "welfare-pampered," "lazy" and "immoral." [4]. I can add someone opinions to every article on wikipedia, we have to ask what is the reason for adding his content, who is he, what does he know. he is not a sound charecter by his own rantings, he is not a solid figure in the African community and since we are talking negative things we need to extra careful, do u understand this is negative stuff so bring proper sources.-- HalaTruth(ሀላካሕ) 03:36, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
No some of the critic is valid, i know we dont know who they are but they are not blatent bigots. the content is more important than the who.-- HalaTruth(ሀላካሕ) 03:45, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
No I am just saying we need to have content, that man above has neither content or who. But content must come first. The discussion of the Jewish symbol(whatever) is a good one i actually was thinking so myself, so original quality critic. I think you should readd that because it is far more important tnan Tony, he says something which has no case. I think ... and?? It is just an opinion. But someone discuss the candles and the "copying" from Judaism is far more valid and i think it should in there before a "who".--
HalaTruth(ሀላካሕ) 04:18, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
Carlotta Morrow, Christian freelance writer, uses Karenga's own writings to criticize the holiday, writing that Karenga claims Kwanzaa was created as an alternative to Christmas in his early accounts, but contradicts himself in his most recent writings. [1] - - William Norman Grigg noted the seven-branch candle holder, the Kinara, was not used in African traditions, and suggested a symbol of Judaism, the menorah, was borrowed to match the seven principles of Kwanzaa. [2] However, the use of a kinara may not be as incongruous considering the lengthy history of African-Americans identifying themselves with the Jewish people in their own slave history.
the above comments are far more encyclopedic because the explain themselves they discuss an argument. NOT "Kwanzaa is FAKE" .... how?-- HalaTruth(ሀላካሕ) 04:20, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
I think that Kwanzaa Critics should be given their own page which is separate from the definitions, origins, and current practice of the celebration. The recent phenomenon of raising and emphasizing the criminal record of Karenga began a few years ago by a group of Christian Conservatives in response to the fact the George W. Bush sent out a positive Kwanzaa wish in one of his addresses. This started with Mulshin, Malkin, Coulter, Shaidle and several others whose credibility simply lies with their popularity as bloggers and columnists. I have all the details in my blog, but I would prefer that someone more familiar with the arcanities of WikiCredibility write this stuff 'impartially' here. I'll be encouraging academics to come here. -- Michael David Cobb Bowen 14:14, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
I agree with Mr. Bowen. Let the critics have their own page and you will have a great assortment of people entering valid sources that will show give a complete picture of Kwanzaa. Im2old 20:50, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
Citation needed in "popularity" can be found within this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-MY8I_kwJY&eurl=
I can't edit it though because I'm a newly registered user. Anyone else? =)
Absolute141 08:32, 23 December 2006 (UTC)absolute141
The last paragraph in the criticism section reeks of POV. It almost sounds like the writer is on a soapbox. I'm not sure whether it is fixable or should just be deleted. And I was hoping someone could tell me where the holiday is popular. I'm from South Carolina, which has a large black commnity, and I don't know anyone who celebrates it. I recently read a quote from a black professor of African American studies in Charleston who said that he doesn't know anyone who celebrates it.
Kwanzaa is fake, anyone can say this. Why? Where? How? When. Is TOny snow an African Academic, is he African American, is he an authority on African history and culture? Does he live in the "hood". Was he born in Africa? Does he speak Swhahili, is his wife African? Why is his statements on a pro-Israel site? Why didnt he make his comments on an African-American site? Who is his audience? What are his motives? What is the core of his argument? For all of these reasons he offers nothing to the comprehension of some of the issues of Kwanzaa and it should be removed forthwith. The material by the non-notibles is far more significiant and academic contribution. The memorah is a valid observation, the merit of the critic comes first. I would love to see us try and add Karenga or any AA to a Critism of the Talmud, i dare you to try.-- HalaTruth(ሀላካሕ) 22:20, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
I am saying the quality of the critic is important, see the stuff you deleted about the similarities to Judaism, i must have spelt the thing wrong, but even i always said "isnt that a Jewish symbol Karenga uses?-- HalaTruth(ሀላካሕ) 01:18, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
Some Jews claim that he stold aspects of the Jewish faith, just like they say we shouldnt use Holocaust in African Holocaust it is part of an Anti-African camp which says we piggy back of off other peoples culture.-- HalaTruth(ሀላካሕ) 01:28, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
Click here to read the article. There is almost no mention of the United Slaves criminality, and there's barely any reference to the anti-Kwanzaa points.This page is very biasedly pro-Kwanzaa. The criticism section needs to be expanded to what it once was. The Person Who Is Strange 02:33, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
An artcle doesnt become NPOV just because it isnt swimming with anti-Kwanza statements. This article is not called errors in Kwanza. look at Christmas as a good example.-- HalaTruth(ሀላካሕ) 02:37, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
and look at Hanukkah this kwanza article has in more critic than most, so it is nuetral by the standards expected of this site-- HalaTruth(ሀላካሕ) 02:39, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
This topic is about Kwanzaa, adding POV about Karenga and attacks on Karenga are not allowed. and will be deleted,-- HalaTruth(ሀላካሕ) 07:08, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
Someone removed my attempt to correct the bias inherent in the beginning of this article. Whoever that is should leave it alone. An encyclopedia is supposed to be neutral or balanced, not a propaganda machine for special interests. It is practices like the above that discourage wikipedia from being an acceptable source in an academic context.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.218.51.59 ( talk • contribs) 18:14, December 30, 2006
Mr Jpgordon, do you see what i mean, look at the new attack. We need to keep this page protected. how can a simple holiday attract so many, why dont they go an do this on
Christmas
Easter and all the other festivals?--
HalaTruth(ሀላካሕ) 19:03, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
thnks now i know-- HalaTruth(ሀላካሕ) 19:36, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
I can answer why they don't do this for Christmas and Easter and such-- people actually celebrate those. They also have meaning rather than to advance a certain race. The Person Who Is Strange 06:32, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
To the mafia in charge of this entry: The FACT that kwa(a)nza(a) is anti-Christian cannot be disputed. It is clearly stated in the body of the article. Your repeated attempts to hide that FACT and now "protecting" the article from edits to correct the bias, are evidence of your distorted worldview. Halal especially--why try to hide the truth? Could it be that you yourselves are anti-Christian? <slaps forehead> How could we have been so blind? 68.218.51.59 23:17, 30 December 2006 (UTC)I don't know how to sign my name.
"More African-Americans spent this season reflecting on the birth of Christ than some phony non-Christian holiday invented a few decades ago by an FBI stooge." She adds: "Kwanzaa is a holiday for white liberals, not blacks." Asteriks 23:59, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
Ann Coulter has by her own admission said she is not balance, she is a trouble maker that has no ligitimate stance or authority to comment on kwanzaa, quote her anywhere is useless since she opposes most things and has no balance, in addition spending has no bearing on how valid or invalid kwanzaa is, kwanzaa a holiday for whites is a very childish claim, with no argument our purpose except open your mouth and say it. we dont add every 2 cents of critism to xmas or easter so show balance across the encyo, i find it strange that all the issues discussed above with xmas very little has made it into the xmas article, yet crazy comments should be allowed here under the plurality tag.-- HalaTruth(ሀላካሕ) 23:58, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
And Galileo's opinion of the Earth revolving around the sun was also just one opinion, one that additionally was contradicted by hundreds of thousands of other people. Now, granted, Ann Coulter may not be Galileo (far from it) — and we are talking about something that is different from the world of nature and science — but it's either a fact or it's not, that "More African-Americans spent this season reflecting on the birth of Christ" than on Kwanzaa. If that's a fact — and I believe it to be one that is rather credible — than even if you feel that the Coulter article's description of Kwanzaa (as "some phony non-Christian holiday invented a few decades ago by an FBI stooge") is pretty strong, then it is hardly unreasonable to add her conclusion that "Kwanzaa is a holiday for white liberals, not blacks." Asteriks 20:46, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
"Galileo's idea wasn't an opinion -- it was conclusion scientifically arrived at." We know that now; few people at the time believed it. That's why it was said that… he was (obviously) a bit bonkers and his view should not be taken into account and should not be widely dessiminated. More to the point: is it "provable and true" or (very, very) likely that "More African-Americans spent this season reflecting on the birth of Christ than" celebrating Kwanzaa? Yes or no? Asteriks 12:48, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
Please stick to discussing how to develop this article and limit that discussion to constructive contributions, i fail to see what Christ, money and xmas have to do with Kwanzaa. blogger.com is a good place to air your feelings-- HalaTruth(ሀላካሕ) 13:14, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
Kwanzaa or Kwanza is how it is supposed to be spelled. This came straight from ron everett's official kwanzaa page. 69.149.185.130 18:50, 1 January 2007 (UTC) lessyj here is a link>> http://www.officialkwanzaawebsite.org/index.shtml
Does the fact that the 7 principles of Kwanzaa and the stated principles of the terrorist group S.L.A. are identical have any relevence here?
http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/msymbionese.html
"Karenga" does not mean "master teacher" in Swahili. This statement, at the start of the article, appears to confuse his adopted name with the meaning of his adopted title, maulana: see Ron Karenga. Zahir Mgeni 19:24, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
Could someone knowledgeable please create the Karamu (feast) article? I put everything I could find, which is not much, on the disambig page for Karamu. Thanks! -- László 14:00, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
Please read the previous debate about critic of kwanzaa before putting in extrem sources from rev so and so.-- HalaTruth(ሐላቃህ) 09:00, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
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![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | → | Archive 9 |
Kwanza is celebrated very little in the world apart from the U.S. and U.K. Many of the most sophisticated Africans I know have discussed this with me. 76.179.235.134 02:42, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
I do not know who William Norman Grigg is and have redlinked his name in the article. If he is notable enought to be mentioned in the article for his opinion then he should be getting his own article- or at least his own stub. Therefore he should remain redlinked to encourage someone who actually knows who he is to write an article. Angrynight 14:16, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
I do not know who Sara McGill is. Apparently she wrote a book titled "Kwanzaa" published in 2005. A google search for her and the word "Kwanzaa" returns only this page and others citing it. Amazon.com does not seem to have any author named Sara McGill and has no book titled simply "Kwanzaa" published in the year 2005. I can find no information on this author or her book. Can someone confirm this is in fact a real book, seeing as this article quotes two sentences from it? An ISBN would be nice, in order to make Ms. McGill's quotation verifiable. Thanks. 66.17.118.207 20:12, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
...It appears to have been put in here. The contributor hasn't been around much since. -- jpgordon ∇∆∇∆ 20:40, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
The link for the Karenga quote on placing Kwanzaa near Christmas is dead. I have found a new link that shows it was posted by an anti-Kwanzaa site with no reference to when Karenga said this. I haven't found when the statement was added, but it seems that this is a press release attempting to denounce the holiday and has no reference to when Karenga supposedly said all this. Do we have a direct quote from an unbiased source? If not, I'm going to remove the quote as it is a bit inflammatory. Thesilence 16:01, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
In light of record-time revert from Chihuahua, why is it OK to say "karenga the political activist" but not "karenga the political activist and convicted felon"? "felon" is more verifiable than the "activist" description.
Justforasecond 18:12, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
Responding to the RFC entry: - in the context of Kwanzaa, the criminal or other record of its founder is not particularly relevant. Those who want to know more about him, can read his own, personal, article. That's broadly how
user:Katefan0 comented, and I broadly concur. This article has a controversy section that nicely seems to cover the controversies which relate to the holiday.
FT2 (
Talk |
email) 10:27, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
An objective note of correction: Karenga's group was never "United Slaves." It was always Us/US. It was never an acronym and the page master's resistance to removing this inaccuracy reflects his entirely polemical intentions. He cannot, for example, find any official documentation proving otherwise. See Scot Brown's impressive book, Fighting for US, NYU Press, 2003. 137.99.108.127 20:40, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
"There has been criticism of Kwanzaa's authenticity and relevance, and of the motiviations of its founder, Karenga. The origins of Kwanzaa are not secret, and are openly acknowledged by those promoting the holiday"
Because of the linguistic structure, the typical reader would think that this "acknowledgement" corresponds to the "authenticity, relevance, and motivations of its founder" in the previous sentence. Seeing a reference there gives this sentence the feeling of legitimacy. However, if you follow the link provided, it does not address this material. Beyond that, the "not secret" description is pointless -- nothing in wikipedia is secret; the entire world has access to it.
Justforasecond 05:41, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
Please remember to remain civil, jpgordon. Justforasecond 23:58, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
If I may jump in.
elpincha 03:29, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
Is it me, or are there contributors here that have nothing else to do other than to find anything black on Wikipdedia, and do their best to illustrate everything negative they can find. Of course as a side note these obsessives are ok if articles about white people also include or illuminate negative aspects on those articles, but of course our obsessives won't be the ones taking the extra effort to do so themselves. Oh hey, Justforasecond, how's it going by the way? -- Zaphnathpaaneah 05:36, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
That'll work. Though I don't think the "some" is 'weasely' (a source is provided), your edit makes it more specific. Thanks. Ufwuct 21:40, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
...shall we consider semi-protecting the article now, or should we wait until the usual barrage of abuse starts, as it will? -- jpgordon ∇∆∇∆ 18:54, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
I am not an account-holding member of wikipedia, but what steps need to be taken to have that sign above the top of the article stating "the neutrality of this article is disputed?" This article cites heavily bias sources (ann coulter!?) and the majority of it seems to be trying to belittle and ridicule the holiday as a whole. Especially as the season approaches, I'd hate for someone trying to learn more about Kwanzaa come to see this page as it is.
-Sekou
I've celebrated Kwanzaa myself for many years, so I may have a little bias. The quote in the second paragraph of the History and Etymology page, if you look at the source, is from a politically charged website and is somewhat tertiary. I think it deserves some balancing evidence, or at least some mention that it is not a direct quote.
I do think it is important for people to know about what Karenga may have said, but I think there should also be more information about how the celebration is conducted, common practices, etc. The holiday itself in-practice is somewhat separate from the person who created it.
Also I think the word "exclusively" in the first sentence makes for further stigma towards the holiday, even though in actuality it doesn't try to exclude... from the official site: "Any particular message that is good for a particular people, if it is human in its content and ethical in its grounding, speaks not just to that people, it speaks to the world."
But the article is coming along, definitely a lot better... Hope you don't run into too much trouble during the holidays -Sekou
Do not walk through an article and remove my edits with out a discussion, you have reverted everything i have done for no reason. Discuss before starting an issue, Karenga is a Pan-Africanist, go and look up the term. Kwanza is a Pan-African holiday, -- Halaqah 17:39, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
black and black people doesnt fit in with kwanza, Karenga calls it an African American holiday, dont turn around and start talking about black and black holiday. He clearly more often than not calls it a Pan-African holiday. Jpgordon went crazy and reverted everything i added, he didnt look at the context of sentences which in one hand said blacks and the next African American. Indians are black, so which black group are you talking about? I have not changed any of the quoted material, do not revert anything i have done with discussing it here. even the image i moved to get rid of the white space he/she reverted.-- Halaqah 17:48, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
Ok i understand notice i have listen to what you have said and havent changed back the things which are quoted. I dont think the kwanzaa article should be used to discuss ron karenga, that can be done on Ron Karenga. I understand because i watch out for certain topics which are subjected to all forms of mad people. -- Halaqah 18:26, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
I have found u either love him to bits or hate him, there is no middle ground. He knows how to change or adapt i respect him for that. -- Halaqah 18:37, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
I really dont know who edits here,
almost exclusively by African-Americans in the United States of America.[citation needed]
I have not removed this strange remark about "Exclusively" I am not African American and i celebrate Kwanzaa, so do many people in Africa. I will let you go and get a solid reference. PLease not the reference i have added from the mouth of the creator. everywhere it says PAN AFRICAN and these people delete this and said "black nationalist"-- Halaqah 18:11, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
I know there aren't supposed to be commercial links on Wikipedia, but would someone be so kind as to post some links on where to get Kwanzaa decorations? They are HARD TO FIND, and my wife and I have been trying to find some for our kids...
Thanks!
-- Mkamensek (talk) - The LeftOverChef
Far too many people are coming here and vandalizing the page, i will back any request for page protection. why does wikipedia allow unreg users to do this? It always means someone has to stand guard on these pages. -- Halaqah 12:52, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
Seven symbols are displayed during the Kwanzaa ceremony to represent the seven principles of African culture and community. Mkeka (M-kay-cah) - This is the mat (usually made of straw, but it can also be made of fabric or paper) upon which all the other Kwanzaa symbols are placed. The mat represents the foundation of African traditions and history.
Mazao (Maah-zow) - The crops, fruits and vegetables, represent traditional African harvest celebrations and show respect for the people who labored to grow them.
Kinara (Kee-nah-rah) - The candle holder represents the original stalk from which all African ancestors came. It holds the seven candles.
Mishumaa (Mee-shoo-maah) - In the seven candles, each candle represents one of the seven principles. The candles are red, green, and black -- symbolic of the African people and their struggles.
Muhindi (Moo-heen-dee) - The corn represents African children and the promise of their future. One ear of corn is set out for each child in the family. In a family without children, one ear is set out symbolically to represent the children of the community.
Kikombe cha Umoja (Kee-com-bay chah-oo-moe-jah) - The Unity Cup symbolizes the first principle of Kwanzaa -- the unity of family and of the African people. The cup is used to pour the libation (water, juice or wine) for family and friends.
Zawadi (Sah-wah-dee) - The gifts represent the labors of the parents and the rewards of their children. Gifts are given to educate and enrich the children -- they may include a book, a piece of art or an educational toy. At least one of the gifts is a symbol of African heritage. -- HalaTruth(ሀላካሕ) 18:54, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
Aren't there quite a few critics of Kwanzaa? I think it deserves a section. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 209.66.50.130 ( talk) 15:07, 18 December 2006 (UTC).
M&S4K reads like a promotion. And the second Videos and Media link, the footnote to M&S4K and the last external link are the same. Should be changed. Vitriol 16:52, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
I actually re-wrote the music section, songs of Kwanzaa, I see no reason to delete it, If it is a valid aspect of kwanzaa it should be left, if however it had no kwanzaa content it should be removed, a physical video of the founder explaining Kwanzaa is a million words. -- HalaTruth(ሀላካሕ) 20:19, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
The video comes from that site, i dont think linking to Utube is a good idea you get all sorts of garabage up there plus it would nt have the explaination and isnt a kwanzaa site, many people i have notice just use utube to stream videos, it is free and they dont fill up there sites. But the video is branded with the name of the site so it is there video, they have a lot of karenga videos up there. I might have to delete the 2nd one because i know the film is about Kwanzaa but there is no links etc, Yes the 2nd one was one company selling one product, When i rewrote it i was saying the same thing they should be a diverse group of sources but i only found that one site.-- HalaTruth(ሀላካሕ) 12:28, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
the video is owned by that site they created it, watch it and see. I have added details about the other kwanzaa film.-- HalaTruth(ሀላካሕ) 16:56, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
In response to the claim that the kinara is borrowed from Judaism's menorah, it says, "However, there is a tradition of Black Jews and the Exodus, the "going forth" of the Children of Israel, has historically been a metaphor for their struggle as a people."
What?! What does that have anything to do with the kinara? Blacks seem themselves metaphorically as Jews, and therefore used Jewish symbols? If that's what it's trying to say, then it should be clearer. The menorah has nothing to do with Exodus or "going forth".
Lets end this stupid debate, it is not a valid claim, as all holidays have a start date, the very xmas is more fake than Kwanzaa if the word fake means what they say it means. All holidays are invented, thanksgiving the Passover at some point they enter world culture. Kwanzaa is not from the continent of Africa but it is a valid African Holiday, a New World African holiday. The founder is African and the culture is African hence it is African, not traditional but contemporary.-- HalaTruth(ሀላካሕ) 20:16, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
The point is it a invalid assertion, this is not a list of issues with Kwanzaa it is an encyclopedia and in it the issue is what is kwanzaa not a string of every mad person who has a opinion on Karenga or Kwanzaa. Imagine if every article did that for say G Bush? So we need to filter down to what is a valid critic, FAKE isnt valid because all holidays have an origin and thus most of them are made up. It is thus not a valid discussion, And yes we debate here what to include into the article to make it encylopedic and some debates, as someone said from unqualified people have no place here.-- HalaTruth(ሀላካሕ) 21:00, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
All references especially negative ones need to be 100% i dont think any extreme racist people should be cited as a source on what is a traditional African holiday or not, such a source needs to come from a historical figure or someone who has some idea about African celebratory practices, A man who sums up Islam as "evil" and then attacks Kwanzaa really is not a man with a sound mental or academic character to be cited here. Bring an African academic who says it isnt African and then that is valid, because many Africans say it is valid as karenga is an Africa so Kwanzaa is African, and since an African created it is a valid African holiday, point being bring real sources not mad people or haters Jesse Lee Peterson take a look at his record he under no circumstances belongs here. See wiki policy on quality sources, haters are not allowed. he is probally just jealous of Karenga.-- HalaTruth(ሀላካሕ) 21:07, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
Let me reassert
Jesse Lee Peterson opnions are not valid, He is not an African historian, he has no knowledge of African culture or African religions. Further more he is a highly controversial charecter who is know for unreasonable statements which are against African Americans, re Katrina. We do not list a list all personal opinions on Kwanzaa, i am sure every one has one, he is not a crediable source.
Wikipedia:Reliable sources i will go further have a read of
Appeal to authority, Peterson violates
NPOV and is an extream source. for all of these reasons his comments cannot be admitted here, his personal opinions do not belong in an encyclopedic context.
Everyone has an opinion, he is a vile human, find someone else who has some sort of credit as a qulified cultural historian, a religious African figure. You can not validiate the rantings of a clearly confused man, a man who is know to be a racist, and a bigot. Imagine if someone quoted Hitlers views on Judaism or Africans? His views are invalid by nature of his legacy.--
HalaTruth(ሀላካሕ) 03:31, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
JPgordon, I received a call from a reporter in Canada who wanted to interview me from seeing my website mentioned as a critic's source on Kwanzaa. Much to my dismay, my source was deleted. Why? Simply because no one knows who I am? I used researched material including Karenga's own writings to show that he indeed created Kwanzaa as a substitute not only for Christmas, but for one's religion. Many people have written me asides from the reporter in Canada who is also questioning why my source is removed. There appears to be bias and only "well known" people deserve a spot. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Im2old ( talk • contribs) 17:04, December 27, 2006
Thank your for your explanation JPGordon. But I'm wondering, why have a page of critics or criticism if people's sources can't be used? And what if other's inserted our information? I am a critic of Kwanzaa but when would my factual information be used? No matter my personal opinion regarding Kwanzaa, I had presented information that showed contradictions using Karenga's own words from two of his books on Kwanzaa. This information is unopinionated, presented in a way where anyone can make up their own minds on what was written. Im2old 20:55, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
Imagine this , The Reverend Peterson also stirred up controversy in September of 2005, when he penned a column for the conservative World Net Daily in which he accused black people stranded in New Orleans during Hurricane Katrina of being "welfare-pampered," "lazy" and "immoral." [4]. I can add someone opinions to every article on wikipedia, we have to ask what is the reason for adding his content, who is he, what does he know. he is not a sound charecter by his own rantings, he is not a solid figure in the African community and since we are talking negative things we need to extra careful, do u understand this is negative stuff so bring proper sources.-- HalaTruth(ሀላካሕ) 03:36, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
No some of the critic is valid, i know we dont know who they are but they are not blatent bigots. the content is more important than the who.-- HalaTruth(ሀላካሕ) 03:45, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
No I am just saying we need to have content, that man above has neither content or who. But content must come first. The discussion of the Jewish symbol(whatever) is a good one i actually was thinking so myself, so original quality critic. I think you should readd that because it is far more important tnan Tony, he says something which has no case. I think ... and?? It is just an opinion. But someone discuss the candles and the "copying" from Judaism is far more valid and i think it should in there before a "who".--
HalaTruth(ሀላካሕ) 04:18, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
Carlotta Morrow, Christian freelance writer, uses Karenga's own writings to criticize the holiday, writing that Karenga claims Kwanzaa was created as an alternative to Christmas in his early accounts, but contradicts himself in his most recent writings. [1] - - William Norman Grigg noted the seven-branch candle holder, the Kinara, was not used in African traditions, and suggested a symbol of Judaism, the menorah, was borrowed to match the seven principles of Kwanzaa. [2] However, the use of a kinara may not be as incongruous considering the lengthy history of African-Americans identifying themselves with the Jewish people in their own slave history.
the above comments are far more encyclopedic because the explain themselves they discuss an argument. NOT "Kwanzaa is FAKE" .... how?-- HalaTruth(ሀላካሕ) 04:20, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
I think that Kwanzaa Critics should be given their own page which is separate from the definitions, origins, and current practice of the celebration. The recent phenomenon of raising and emphasizing the criminal record of Karenga began a few years ago by a group of Christian Conservatives in response to the fact the George W. Bush sent out a positive Kwanzaa wish in one of his addresses. This started with Mulshin, Malkin, Coulter, Shaidle and several others whose credibility simply lies with their popularity as bloggers and columnists. I have all the details in my blog, but I would prefer that someone more familiar with the arcanities of WikiCredibility write this stuff 'impartially' here. I'll be encouraging academics to come here. -- Michael David Cobb Bowen 14:14, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
I agree with Mr. Bowen. Let the critics have their own page and you will have a great assortment of people entering valid sources that will show give a complete picture of Kwanzaa. Im2old 20:50, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
Citation needed in "popularity" can be found within this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-MY8I_kwJY&eurl=
I can't edit it though because I'm a newly registered user. Anyone else? =)
Absolute141 08:32, 23 December 2006 (UTC)absolute141
The last paragraph in the criticism section reeks of POV. It almost sounds like the writer is on a soapbox. I'm not sure whether it is fixable or should just be deleted. And I was hoping someone could tell me where the holiday is popular. I'm from South Carolina, which has a large black commnity, and I don't know anyone who celebrates it. I recently read a quote from a black professor of African American studies in Charleston who said that he doesn't know anyone who celebrates it.
Kwanzaa is fake, anyone can say this. Why? Where? How? When. Is TOny snow an African Academic, is he African American, is he an authority on African history and culture? Does he live in the "hood". Was he born in Africa? Does he speak Swhahili, is his wife African? Why is his statements on a pro-Israel site? Why didnt he make his comments on an African-American site? Who is his audience? What are his motives? What is the core of his argument? For all of these reasons he offers nothing to the comprehension of some of the issues of Kwanzaa and it should be removed forthwith. The material by the non-notibles is far more significiant and academic contribution. The memorah is a valid observation, the merit of the critic comes first. I would love to see us try and add Karenga or any AA to a Critism of the Talmud, i dare you to try.-- HalaTruth(ሀላካሕ) 22:20, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
I am saying the quality of the critic is important, see the stuff you deleted about the similarities to Judaism, i must have spelt the thing wrong, but even i always said "isnt that a Jewish symbol Karenga uses?-- HalaTruth(ሀላካሕ) 01:18, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
Some Jews claim that he stold aspects of the Jewish faith, just like they say we shouldnt use Holocaust in African Holocaust it is part of an Anti-African camp which says we piggy back of off other peoples culture.-- HalaTruth(ሀላካሕ) 01:28, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
Click here to read the article. There is almost no mention of the United Slaves criminality, and there's barely any reference to the anti-Kwanzaa points.This page is very biasedly pro-Kwanzaa. The criticism section needs to be expanded to what it once was. The Person Who Is Strange 02:33, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
An artcle doesnt become NPOV just because it isnt swimming with anti-Kwanza statements. This article is not called errors in Kwanza. look at Christmas as a good example.-- HalaTruth(ሀላካሕ) 02:37, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
and look at Hanukkah this kwanza article has in more critic than most, so it is nuetral by the standards expected of this site-- HalaTruth(ሀላካሕ) 02:39, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
This topic is about Kwanzaa, adding POV about Karenga and attacks on Karenga are not allowed. and will be deleted,-- HalaTruth(ሀላካሕ) 07:08, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
Someone removed my attempt to correct the bias inherent in the beginning of this article. Whoever that is should leave it alone. An encyclopedia is supposed to be neutral or balanced, not a propaganda machine for special interests. It is practices like the above that discourage wikipedia from being an acceptable source in an academic context.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.218.51.59 ( talk • contribs) 18:14, December 30, 2006
Mr Jpgordon, do you see what i mean, look at the new attack. We need to keep this page protected. how can a simple holiday attract so many, why dont they go an do this on
Christmas
Easter and all the other festivals?--
HalaTruth(ሀላካሕ) 19:03, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
thnks now i know-- HalaTruth(ሀላካሕ) 19:36, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
I can answer why they don't do this for Christmas and Easter and such-- people actually celebrate those. They also have meaning rather than to advance a certain race. The Person Who Is Strange 06:32, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
To the mafia in charge of this entry: The FACT that kwa(a)nza(a) is anti-Christian cannot be disputed. It is clearly stated in the body of the article. Your repeated attempts to hide that FACT and now "protecting" the article from edits to correct the bias, are evidence of your distorted worldview. Halal especially--why try to hide the truth? Could it be that you yourselves are anti-Christian? <slaps forehead> How could we have been so blind? 68.218.51.59 23:17, 30 December 2006 (UTC)I don't know how to sign my name.
"More African-Americans spent this season reflecting on the birth of Christ than some phony non-Christian holiday invented a few decades ago by an FBI stooge." She adds: "Kwanzaa is a holiday for white liberals, not blacks." Asteriks 23:59, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
Ann Coulter has by her own admission said she is not balance, she is a trouble maker that has no ligitimate stance or authority to comment on kwanzaa, quote her anywhere is useless since she opposes most things and has no balance, in addition spending has no bearing on how valid or invalid kwanzaa is, kwanzaa a holiday for whites is a very childish claim, with no argument our purpose except open your mouth and say it. we dont add every 2 cents of critism to xmas or easter so show balance across the encyo, i find it strange that all the issues discussed above with xmas very little has made it into the xmas article, yet crazy comments should be allowed here under the plurality tag.-- HalaTruth(ሀላካሕ) 23:58, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
And Galileo's opinion of the Earth revolving around the sun was also just one opinion, one that additionally was contradicted by hundreds of thousands of other people. Now, granted, Ann Coulter may not be Galileo (far from it) — and we are talking about something that is different from the world of nature and science — but it's either a fact or it's not, that "More African-Americans spent this season reflecting on the birth of Christ" than on Kwanzaa. If that's a fact — and I believe it to be one that is rather credible — than even if you feel that the Coulter article's description of Kwanzaa (as "some phony non-Christian holiday invented a few decades ago by an FBI stooge") is pretty strong, then it is hardly unreasonable to add her conclusion that "Kwanzaa is a holiday for white liberals, not blacks." Asteriks 20:46, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
"Galileo's idea wasn't an opinion -- it was conclusion scientifically arrived at." We know that now; few people at the time believed it. That's why it was said that… he was (obviously) a bit bonkers and his view should not be taken into account and should not be widely dessiminated. More to the point: is it "provable and true" or (very, very) likely that "More African-Americans spent this season reflecting on the birth of Christ than" celebrating Kwanzaa? Yes or no? Asteriks 12:48, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
Please stick to discussing how to develop this article and limit that discussion to constructive contributions, i fail to see what Christ, money and xmas have to do with Kwanzaa. blogger.com is a good place to air your feelings-- HalaTruth(ሀላካሕ) 13:14, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
Kwanzaa or Kwanza is how it is supposed to be spelled. This came straight from ron everett's official kwanzaa page. 69.149.185.130 18:50, 1 January 2007 (UTC) lessyj here is a link>> http://www.officialkwanzaawebsite.org/index.shtml
Does the fact that the 7 principles of Kwanzaa and the stated principles of the terrorist group S.L.A. are identical have any relevence here?
http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/msymbionese.html
"Karenga" does not mean "master teacher" in Swahili. This statement, at the start of the article, appears to confuse his adopted name with the meaning of his adopted title, maulana: see Ron Karenga. Zahir Mgeni 19:24, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
Could someone knowledgeable please create the Karamu (feast) article? I put everything I could find, which is not much, on the disambig page for Karamu. Thanks! -- László 14:00, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
Please read the previous debate about critic of kwanzaa before putting in extrem sources from rev so and so.-- HalaTruth(ሐላቃህ) 09:00, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
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