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Kurt Moll was an infra-bass, not a basso profundo--his range was LOWER than typical basso-profundo, and (paradoxically) his tone was bright, not dark or hollow-sounding like a typical basso-profundo. Boris Christoff, Gottlob Frick, Fyodor Chalyapin, Martti Talvela, Paata Burchuladze--these are what basso-profundo sounds like. Not Kurt Moll.
An anonymous editor: 90.137.147.205, who may or may not be the same as 90.137.184.251, seems to disagree with me. I hereby invite him/her/them to explain why, and to seek consensus.
HandsomeMrToad ( talk) 01:38, 15 March 2017 (UTC)
Greetings, HandsomeMrToad.
I apologize for not explaining my revisions earlier. I've never edited Wikipedia before, so I didn't know about the "Talk" feature. Motivated by mr. Moll's recent passing, I wanted to improve his Wikipedia page by correcting what, to me, seemed like incorrect and/or potentially confusing information.
Firstly, regarding the fach question - Kurt Moll's voice falls neatly into the basso profondo classification. He was the basso profondo par excellence of his generation. "Infra-bass", on the other hand, is not a recognized voice classification in classical vocalism. Neither Boris Christoff nor Fyodor Chalyapin were bassi profondi, and this is well-known. Also, your idea of what a basso profondo voice sounds like is incorrect - a singer need not sound hollow or overdarkened to be considered a basso profondo (none of the singers you listed sounded or sounds hollow, but we might argue that Burchuladze tends to overdarken his vowels). In this respect, a singer's color will be as much the result of the technique he is using, as it will be the result of the nature of his individual instrument. Kurt Moll sang with a technique that employed bright, open vowels, never excessively covering, not even above the secondo passaggio. That's what makes his voice sound "bright", to your ears.
Secondly, as I've already written, "octavist" is not a voice type, it's a choral part, most often associated with Orthodox liturgical music. Kurt Moll never sang as an octavist. His career was that of an operatic soloist, not a chorister (naturally, he did sing in opera choruses when he was young, but opera choruses don't normally employ octavist sections). Besides the fact that labeling a famous operatic soloist as an "octavist" is incorrect and unnecessarily confusing, some people might find it to be a bit of a faux pas, as being an operatic soloist is often considered to be a more prestigious position, compared to being a chorister.
I also believe the sentence about mr. Moll not singing Wotan, Hans Sachs or Hagen because he was not a "thunderer" is both incorrect and misleading. He didn't sing Wotan or Hans Sachs because those are bass-baritone roles. It's a quite different tessitura from the Wagner roles which were appropriate for his voice, like Gurnemanz, Daland or Marke, for example. As for Hagen, in the interview with Bruce Duffie, he explains he avoided it because he didn't feel it was appropriate for his vocal color (color is not to be confused with volume) and artistic temperament. Saying he was not a "thunderer" and, therefore, didn't sing those roles is a bit like saying mr. Moll had a small voice, which couldn't be farther from the truth, as anyone who has heard him live can attest to. You don't make a big career singing Wagner in large houses, if you have a small voice.
Filipseverbass ( talk) 14:37, 16 March 2017 (UTC)
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![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
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Kurt Moll was an infra-bass, not a basso profundo--his range was LOWER than typical basso-profundo, and (paradoxically) his tone was bright, not dark or hollow-sounding like a typical basso-profundo. Boris Christoff, Gottlob Frick, Fyodor Chalyapin, Martti Talvela, Paata Burchuladze--these are what basso-profundo sounds like. Not Kurt Moll.
An anonymous editor: 90.137.147.205, who may or may not be the same as 90.137.184.251, seems to disagree with me. I hereby invite him/her/them to explain why, and to seek consensus.
HandsomeMrToad ( talk) 01:38, 15 March 2017 (UTC)
Greetings, HandsomeMrToad.
I apologize for not explaining my revisions earlier. I've never edited Wikipedia before, so I didn't know about the "Talk" feature. Motivated by mr. Moll's recent passing, I wanted to improve his Wikipedia page by correcting what, to me, seemed like incorrect and/or potentially confusing information.
Firstly, regarding the fach question - Kurt Moll's voice falls neatly into the basso profondo classification. He was the basso profondo par excellence of his generation. "Infra-bass", on the other hand, is not a recognized voice classification in classical vocalism. Neither Boris Christoff nor Fyodor Chalyapin were bassi profondi, and this is well-known. Also, your idea of what a basso profondo voice sounds like is incorrect - a singer need not sound hollow or overdarkened to be considered a basso profondo (none of the singers you listed sounded or sounds hollow, but we might argue that Burchuladze tends to overdarken his vowels). In this respect, a singer's color will be as much the result of the technique he is using, as it will be the result of the nature of his individual instrument. Kurt Moll sang with a technique that employed bright, open vowels, never excessively covering, not even above the secondo passaggio. That's what makes his voice sound "bright", to your ears.
Secondly, as I've already written, "octavist" is not a voice type, it's a choral part, most often associated with Orthodox liturgical music. Kurt Moll never sang as an octavist. His career was that of an operatic soloist, not a chorister (naturally, he did sing in opera choruses when he was young, but opera choruses don't normally employ octavist sections). Besides the fact that labeling a famous operatic soloist as an "octavist" is incorrect and unnecessarily confusing, some people might find it to be a bit of a faux pas, as being an operatic soloist is often considered to be a more prestigious position, compared to being a chorister.
I also believe the sentence about mr. Moll not singing Wotan, Hans Sachs or Hagen because he was not a "thunderer" is both incorrect and misleading. He didn't sing Wotan or Hans Sachs because those are bass-baritone roles. It's a quite different tessitura from the Wagner roles which were appropriate for his voice, like Gurnemanz, Daland or Marke, for example. As for Hagen, in the interview with Bruce Duffie, he explains he avoided it because he didn't feel it was appropriate for his vocal color (color is not to be confused with volume) and artistic temperament. Saying he was not a "thunderer" and, therefore, didn't sing those roles is a bit like saying mr. Moll had a small voice, which couldn't be farther from the truth, as anyone who has heard him live can attest to. You don't make a big career singing Wagner in large houses, if you have a small voice.
Filipseverbass ( talk) 14:37, 16 March 2017 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Kurt Moll. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 01:18, 9 May 2017 (UTC)