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What part of my edits constitute "ethno POV"? Calling Kurmanji "Northern Kurdish"? It's literally what the Wikipedia article is called. I added ...Kurmanji (conventionally called "Northern Kurdish")... to make it as neutral as possible. Stop your disruptive behavior and discuss the matter here.----
Երևանցիtalk19:13, 12 March 2019 (UTC)reply
So, I really don't know where to start, but here we go:
1 – First of all, you use one anecdote by a French anthropologist from 1895 to generalize and claim that "Yazidis claim that Kurds speak the language of the Yazidis". If it is a correct derivation, it should be very easy to find a recent academic and reliable source for this bold claim (perhaps more than one source).
2 – I added the Neutrality is disputed template to the sentence "Kurds claim that Kurmanji is a Kurdish dialect". The reason is that, first of all, every academic out there – historian and linguistic – argue that Kurmanji is a Kurdish dialect (heck, Kurmanji means Kurdish in Kurdish)". Now, you use an oeuvre by Kreyenbroek from 1992 as source for this, but nowhere in his article does he argue that "Kurds claim that Kurmanji is a Kurdish dialect" or anything close which could be interpreted as that. Actually he writes: "..., others consider them distinct languages", but clearly refers to the
Zaza-Gorani languages and not the three Kurdish dialects. Read the paragraph again.
3 – For your claim that "Ezdiki is recognized as a distinct language, separated from Kurdish, in Armenia", some of the sources used use the word "Kurdish"(Witzlack-Makarevich), while others do indeed use Yezidi (not Ezdiki) with no reference to Kurdish. Now, since we have disparity, why not find a primary source (as in an official source from Armenia). I've been asking you to provide an official document on the status of the language in Armenia (and whether its recognized as Kurdish or Yezidi). It should be noted that
Ethnologue claims that "Kurdish" has the "educational" status (and doesn't claim that the language is recognized as Ezdiki). You have indeed used Ethnologue in another context, so you must have stumbled upon this and simply ignored it?
[1]
4 – Then you state that: "According to Ethnologue and SIL International „Kurdish“ is a collective term for a macrolanguage (a book-keeping mechanism) and not an individual language". On macro-languages, Ethnologue themselves write: "The latter are defined in the standard as “multiple, closely related individual languages that are deemed in some usage contexts to be a single language."
[2]. Clear contradiction to your statement.
5 – You write that Kurdish "are three languages with different pronunciation, vocabulary and grammar...but no an united "Kurdish" language for all Kurds", but this contradicts general academia that argue that it is one
dialect continuum. Kreyenbroek, who is used as a source rightfully mention the dialectical differences, but does not conclude anything or even argue against the notion of Kurdish consisting of three dialects. How can you come to this conclusion? Again, as a reader it seems that you are pushing for a specific point of view (if so, read
Wikipedia:POV).
6 – The page states: "Other languages, such as Gorani and Zazaki, which linguists clearly refer to as distinct languages, are also considered by the Kurds to be dialects of a "Kurdish" language." – First of all, nowhere in the source (Frye, 1983) does the author argue that Kurds claim that Zazaki is Kurdish. He simply states that Zazaki has gone through a century-long kurdification. So I wonder how you could come to that conclusion? Again, it seems to be an issue of POV.
7 - The article under the section "Literature" is written by a Yilmaz Algin.
[3] This guy is active on Twitter and has written some pretty outrageous things
[4] - now, whether this should affect the presence of his works on Wikipedia, I don't know – But, like User:Jahmalm, he seems to deem the uncontroversial and generally accepted arguments by (non-Kurdish) professional academics as if they came from Kurdish nationalists (and thereby try to delegitimize these arguments).
8 – On a general note, there seem to be some
Wikipedia:OR conclusions. For example: "All the prayers of the Yazidis are spoken in Kurmanji.[14] On this context, the Kurmanji language may also be called Ezdiki (the Yazidi language)." The last source is unsourced and seems to be 'OR'.
9 – When your sources state 'Kurds', you use 'Kurdish nationalists' instead. Why?
10 – What I don't get is the citation marks around the word "Kurdish". Do you not recognize Kurdish as an actual language or am I misunderstanding something? If the former is the case, I think I know why you wrote this article (anti-Kurdish sentiments).
11 – While writing my complains here, I've been wondering why this article even exists. It clearly states that there's no difference between Ezdiki and Kurmanji Kurdish, so again it seems like you wrote this article because reality (which you're trying to affect in the
Kurmanji page as well) doesn't fit your point of view. One could definitely argue that this article should be deleted (
Wikipedia:Notability).
12 – Also, we really need to have an academic source for the first sentence in the article: "Êzdîkî, meaning: "the Yazidi language".
I hope you respond to my concerns and questions for clarification and don't ignore or remove them (and try without calling me names).
There are clear copy-right problems (
Wikipedia:Copyright violations) with your edit since the statement "Armenia agreed to apply the provisions of the Charter in the areas of education, judicial authorities, administrative authorities and public services, media and cultural activities and institutions to the language." is mostly copy-pasted from the book
[5]. Also why are you insisting on the Schulze source, when I've added the official PDF file from the Statistics office of Armenia? --
Ahmedo Semsurî (
talk)
18:33, 22 March 2019 (UTC)reply
@
Zeitgeist89:, since there's a conflict in the Yezidi community on whether they should call their language Kurdish or Yezidi, I think its very important to point out who in this community push for the Yezidi/Ezdiki glossonym, instead of you removing the who?-template. --
Ahmedo Semsurî (
talk)
15:16, 23 March 2019 (UTC)reply
The article merely refers to a glossonym for Kurmanji and it's no different from Kurmanji, so I'm in favor of a redirect. regards
B9Xyz (
talk)
16:27, 29 August 2019 (UTC)reply
It should not merge with the article Kurmanji. It's just a redirect. I really don't see anything significant in the article. Some Yazidis call Kurmanji as Ezdiki and that is already mentioned in the Kurmanji article.
B9Xyz (
talk)
16:42, 29 August 2019 (UTC)reply
Well in that case you should strike out your "oppose" !vote above. I'm no expert in the area but it looks to me as if 1) linguistically, the two languages are the same; 2) politically, there are different feelings, and events and the name by which the language is known are real and have emotional and political significance. To me, these two facts indicate that a Merge is the right solution, as we then have one article, with a short section on 'Yazidi language and politics' or something of that sort, which briefly states the political context and describes the history of the renaming of the language.
Chiswick Chap (
talk)
09:02, 30 August 2019 (UTC)reply
This redirect is within the scope of WikiProject Languages, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
languages on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.LanguagesWikipedia:WikiProject LanguagesTemplate:WikiProject Languageslanguage articles
This redirect is within the scope of WikiProject Kurdistan, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of articles related to
Kurdistan on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.KurdistanWikipedia:WikiProject KurdistanTemplate:WikiProject KurdistanKurdistan articles
What part of my edits constitute "ethno POV"? Calling Kurmanji "Northern Kurdish"? It's literally what the Wikipedia article is called. I added ...Kurmanji (conventionally called "Northern Kurdish")... to make it as neutral as possible. Stop your disruptive behavior and discuss the matter here.----
Երևանցիtalk19:13, 12 March 2019 (UTC)reply
So, I really don't know where to start, but here we go:
1 – First of all, you use one anecdote by a French anthropologist from 1895 to generalize and claim that "Yazidis claim that Kurds speak the language of the Yazidis". If it is a correct derivation, it should be very easy to find a recent academic and reliable source for this bold claim (perhaps more than one source).
2 – I added the Neutrality is disputed template to the sentence "Kurds claim that Kurmanji is a Kurdish dialect". The reason is that, first of all, every academic out there – historian and linguistic – argue that Kurmanji is a Kurdish dialect (heck, Kurmanji means Kurdish in Kurdish)". Now, you use an oeuvre by Kreyenbroek from 1992 as source for this, but nowhere in his article does he argue that "Kurds claim that Kurmanji is a Kurdish dialect" or anything close which could be interpreted as that. Actually he writes: "..., others consider them distinct languages", but clearly refers to the
Zaza-Gorani languages and not the three Kurdish dialects. Read the paragraph again.
3 – For your claim that "Ezdiki is recognized as a distinct language, separated from Kurdish, in Armenia", some of the sources used use the word "Kurdish"(Witzlack-Makarevich), while others do indeed use Yezidi (not Ezdiki) with no reference to Kurdish. Now, since we have disparity, why not find a primary source (as in an official source from Armenia). I've been asking you to provide an official document on the status of the language in Armenia (and whether its recognized as Kurdish or Yezidi). It should be noted that
Ethnologue claims that "Kurdish" has the "educational" status (and doesn't claim that the language is recognized as Ezdiki). You have indeed used Ethnologue in another context, so you must have stumbled upon this and simply ignored it?
[1]
4 – Then you state that: "According to Ethnologue and SIL International „Kurdish“ is a collective term for a macrolanguage (a book-keeping mechanism) and not an individual language". On macro-languages, Ethnologue themselves write: "The latter are defined in the standard as “multiple, closely related individual languages that are deemed in some usage contexts to be a single language."
[2]. Clear contradiction to your statement.
5 – You write that Kurdish "are three languages with different pronunciation, vocabulary and grammar...but no an united "Kurdish" language for all Kurds", but this contradicts general academia that argue that it is one
dialect continuum. Kreyenbroek, who is used as a source rightfully mention the dialectical differences, but does not conclude anything or even argue against the notion of Kurdish consisting of three dialects. How can you come to this conclusion? Again, as a reader it seems that you are pushing for a specific point of view (if so, read
Wikipedia:POV).
6 – The page states: "Other languages, such as Gorani and Zazaki, which linguists clearly refer to as distinct languages, are also considered by the Kurds to be dialects of a "Kurdish" language." – First of all, nowhere in the source (Frye, 1983) does the author argue that Kurds claim that Zazaki is Kurdish. He simply states that Zazaki has gone through a century-long kurdification. So I wonder how you could come to that conclusion? Again, it seems to be an issue of POV.
7 - The article under the section "Literature" is written by a Yilmaz Algin.
[3] This guy is active on Twitter and has written some pretty outrageous things
[4] - now, whether this should affect the presence of his works on Wikipedia, I don't know – But, like User:Jahmalm, he seems to deem the uncontroversial and generally accepted arguments by (non-Kurdish) professional academics as if they came from Kurdish nationalists (and thereby try to delegitimize these arguments).
8 – On a general note, there seem to be some
Wikipedia:OR conclusions. For example: "All the prayers of the Yazidis are spoken in Kurmanji.[14] On this context, the Kurmanji language may also be called Ezdiki (the Yazidi language)." The last source is unsourced and seems to be 'OR'.
9 – When your sources state 'Kurds', you use 'Kurdish nationalists' instead. Why?
10 – What I don't get is the citation marks around the word "Kurdish". Do you not recognize Kurdish as an actual language or am I misunderstanding something? If the former is the case, I think I know why you wrote this article (anti-Kurdish sentiments).
11 – While writing my complains here, I've been wondering why this article even exists. It clearly states that there's no difference between Ezdiki and Kurmanji Kurdish, so again it seems like you wrote this article because reality (which you're trying to affect in the
Kurmanji page as well) doesn't fit your point of view. One could definitely argue that this article should be deleted (
Wikipedia:Notability).
12 – Also, we really need to have an academic source for the first sentence in the article: "Êzdîkî, meaning: "the Yazidi language".
I hope you respond to my concerns and questions for clarification and don't ignore or remove them (and try without calling me names).
There are clear copy-right problems (
Wikipedia:Copyright violations) with your edit since the statement "Armenia agreed to apply the provisions of the Charter in the areas of education, judicial authorities, administrative authorities and public services, media and cultural activities and institutions to the language." is mostly copy-pasted from the book
[5]. Also why are you insisting on the Schulze source, when I've added the official PDF file from the Statistics office of Armenia? --
Ahmedo Semsurî (
talk)
18:33, 22 March 2019 (UTC)reply
@
Zeitgeist89:, since there's a conflict in the Yezidi community on whether they should call their language Kurdish or Yezidi, I think its very important to point out who in this community push for the Yezidi/Ezdiki glossonym, instead of you removing the who?-template. --
Ahmedo Semsurî (
talk)
15:16, 23 March 2019 (UTC)reply
The article merely refers to a glossonym for Kurmanji and it's no different from Kurmanji, so I'm in favor of a redirect. regards
B9Xyz (
talk)
16:27, 29 August 2019 (UTC)reply
It should not merge with the article Kurmanji. It's just a redirect. I really don't see anything significant in the article. Some Yazidis call Kurmanji as Ezdiki and that is already mentioned in the Kurmanji article.
B9Xyz (
talk)
16:42, 29 August 2019 (UTC)reply
Well in that case you should strike out your "oppose" !vote above. I'm no expert in the area but it looks to me as if 1) linguistically, the two languages are the same; 2) politically, there are different feelings, and events and the name by which the language is known are real and have emotional and political significance. To me, these two facts indicate that a Merge is the right solution, as we then have one article, with a short section on 'Yazidi language and politics' or something of that sort, which briefly states the political context and describes the history of the renaming of the language.
Chiswick Chap (
talk)
09:02, 30 August 2019 (UTC)reply